Borderline’s Mating Strategies, Aggression Mismanaged
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- The Borderline hooks up with potential partners using two self-defeating mating strategies : she either offers the full gamut of sex immediately - or she reveals her mental illness by disclosing her personal history, decompensating, and acting out in a dysregulated and unboundaried manner.
The first strategy appeals to predators and players. They use the Borderline sexually, usually only once, and then move on leaving her hurt and dumbfounded, having succumbed to all their kinky and even lurid fantasies on a first encounter.
The second strategy attracts masochistic or savior, fixer, and rescuer types (watch my video on the Karpman drama triangle). But, exposed to her trenchant aggression, approach-avoidance and promiscuity, even they ultimately give up on her.
Healthy aggression is externalized and sublimated: directed outward at people, institutions, and causes in socially accepted ways.
When aggression is internalized, it induces mental illness such as boredom, anhedonia, dysphoria, depression, and even suicidal ideation or suicide.
Infants internalize aggression when frustrated: it feels unsafe to aggress against mommy. When they separate-individuate, they also learn to externalize aggression appropriately and self-efficaciously (regulate their anger).
A failure in separation-individuation engenders fixated grandiosity and, in some cases, narcissism or codependency.
In these mental health disorders, aggression is both externalized inappropriately and internalized self-destructively.
This ambivalent duality is at the source of approach-avoidant behaviors and decompensatory acting out.
Cluster B patients first need to practice externalizing aggression with the aid of a transitory object (such as a punching bag) in a holding or containing environment (like therapy).
Gradually, they can move on to sublimating aggression, for example by becoming social justice activists, moral crusaders, soldiers, cops, surgeons, entrepreneurs, or other similar professionals.
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Bizarrely on point on how the description you gave started with my ex. She appeared out of nowhere throwing herself sexually, i didnt show any interest at the beggining because her approach was very sudden and she clearly didnt want a one night stand with me, she was persuing a very serious relationship. After i denied it, she simply changed her strategy by expressing every single feeling and problem she has, she started to act like a open book informing every single thing in her routine also(without me asking anything).By that time i was just trying to push her away but she would never let me go, and i pity for her and couldnt block her or just cut her off because i felt for the things she said to me.
She gave it all to me, and throw herself emotionally to the point i could literally destroy her, but somehow she knew i would be her savior.. Unfortunately, i felt to the category of unhealthy man, and tried to save her,.. Thats how a relationship that ended very bad began, this person hurt me so much i cant even describe..
This person lifted me to heaven just to throw me down to hell. The lies, the betrail, the depreciation; she literally made me disappear as a person to the point i couldnt even recognize myself, i didnt even know the way she made me feel was possible.
By the time i didnt know about Personality Disorder and I dont mean to offend any BPD suffer, but, if there is something she teach me is to never ever again to be in a relationship with someone with BPD.
Same bro
Why would you not be in a relationship with a BPD? What were the PRO’s & CON’s?
@Princess The mental anguish is not worth the high moments, when it's good it's sweet but the sweetness becomes poison when they split on you. They are hurting deeply, and you pity them and want to make it better. But if you get too close they feel smothered and will dismantle every piece of you that they were attracted to initially. There's no winning, it's a losing war you win the first battle of and assume the others will follow suite.
Ralph, thanks for sharing your story, and sorry about the result. You crafted the description of how they work extremely well. Sam said it right, they start by asking you about your fantasy cause they will try to make it happen. But, it's a strategy to stick the 🗡 in you deeply in the end. And, you will feel every inch going in and 2x as worse coming out. When she gets her foot on your neck, she doubles down while drowning you in more sloppy sex. Ralph just warned yall, now heed the ⚠️ warning. Or, be the next victim...
@@Princess-ef2ux Why should anyone be with crazy ?
Once you know the psychopathy behind their mask of victimhood - you will avoid these people.
This people are not in the cluster B for nothing.
Thank you for this. I ejected a woman with BPD from my life after four months of craziness. This video, more than any other, has helped me to not ruminate ("could I have done more, saved her") and to learn to listen to my gut instincts and keep boundaries in place. It feels good to be free. So again, thank you, Dr. Vaknin.
I must have been lucky. I got both mating strategies on the first date. On the drive to the restaurant she pointed out a place where an ex boyfriend told her to get out of the car after he was abusive to her. Later that same night, she insisted I go up to to her apartment to try some bourbon she knew I liked. How was I to resist? Walking back to my car the next morning, I knew this would not end well. I wasn't wrong.
I have never felt this understood. You are better than any of my psychotherapist. Thank you, Sam!
Bpd is like the sea and non bpd is like a stone cliff, the sea is unpredictable and can stormy but the stone cliff is strong but will crack and fall apart against the sea . It’s sad for both parties
Great metaphor
@@neverliveevil6113The bpd is a a ship, drowning in the sea of its unsolved trauma/uncontrollable emotions. The bpd cracks by hitting the rock. The non-bpd is the rock (hopefully)
This one was really hitting me hard and I was thinking how big of a mistake it was to watch such a stressful thing just before work but at the end where you talk about strategies to manage aggression in a healthy way it tied a lot of things together for me and I gained a profound sense of relief that I now know what I need to do. It's like shedding weight and now I'm glad to have seen this before work.
Thank you Sam.
Thank you so sincerely for this and your other videos. I really do want to help my wife cope with BPD and I have infinite patience as long as she will get into and stay in treatment. With her, the prize is well worth the price.
Everyone around me, as well meaning as they are, does not understand BPD as well as I do. They are the bigger challenge. Everyone looks at me like the idiot, not the loving husband.
Broooooo I feel you on that 120%!!! 💯💯💯
That's because they aren't sick. You, as the partner, are. Sam talks about this in another video. Get out.
@jackthere well for an update, we got to what seems like the root of the problem some time ago, and things have been good since. I highly recommend hyuasca (spelling?) Which can be instrumental in a clinical type setting to help someone with BPD / PTSD. And the person with BPD can self-manage episodes if they understand what is happening to them. It is remarkable what is possible when all parties are both educated about BPD and aware of the symptoms.
No offence though
You are playing with fire and sooner or later , it will engulf you , get out . This is coming from personal experience with a BPD wife . After 7 years or marriage , she did everything Sam has mentioned and I am just coming out of legal battles with her , thanks 🙏🏿 almighty , I am still alive and sane , can’t believe, I never give attention to all the red flags
these behaviours attracts narcissists like a magnet
I used to think I was borderline, as I have many of these toxic manipulative behaviors, but I am not exploitative at all. I find it hard to accept gifts from strangers and ppl I know. I hate feeling like a burden to ppl so I always feel the need to pay my way in situations. And many times I end up being the one who is exploited for financial reasons. I used to pay for everything in my previous relationships with ppl I would have labeled as narcs. But now I'm realizing that dynamic of going back and forth between narcissistic and borderline, and see many times we have flipped roles. Yet again I've still never been exploitative, altho I have been manipulative as far as the sexual relationship goes. I was never ever promiscuous, nor did I sleep around, but I did use sex as a way to control my partner and not allow them to control me. I was intentionally seduce him and use sex as a way of getting what I wanted. I suppose u could call that exploitative. But I would do it with little things, but never a financial gain. For ex, i would seduce my ex to stay the night in order to be able to spend more time with him. He never wanted to sleep over but after sex, he would pass right out. That is extremely manipulative, but it wasn't to hurt him just so i could benefit. To me it was us both getting what we wanted. But I am so grateful for these videos so i can analyze my own behaviors and see what's negative about them and how it can be seen as toxic. I never even thought it was manipulative until last year when I started to dig into this stuff again.
Me too sis. Very similar.
He wouldnt stay over so you had sex with him just so he falls asleep at your place, and then what, did he leave straight after waking up in the morning ? Was it worth having sex only for that ?
Cptsd more likely with an insecure attachment style.
I love your videos and have been following you for some time, however as a borderliner, some facts hurt hard. I always thought my openness to potential partners (only partners, none of my friends know I have BPD) is a way to prepare them for the ride as I try to fix myself on my journey to betterment, never thought it was a tactic because in the past i'd never tell them and make them thing I am perfect till they fall in love and then I tell them I am sick so they don't leave, lol. Your videos do help me fix the manipulative parts I never knew were manipulative, though! And your videos (not enough of them however) about covert borderlines really stuck to me. Keep up the good work :D
Thank you for being so honest. I envy you for being authentic and sincere. Happy Healing ❤️🩹.
@@rachelmor776 sure :) that’s the first step to healing, I think. Being honest with yourself! :)
My ex still hasn’t told me and it’s been 9 years. I’d say she has 7 of the 9. One time she came close she said “you know I’m not right”. I wish we weren’t out to dinner because I think she was finally going to tell me.
@@princhipessa1969 , BPD has a bad reputation, which I can fully understand but I also understand when people try to keep their BPD to themselves and try to fix it in ‘silence’ like I used to do it. Or maybe your ex wasn’t really sure?
@@elizabethamantefinger1310 I appreciate your reply and I wish anyone with BPD that seeks help my utmost respect. She has been seeing a therapist for grief of her dad’s passing years ago but to my knowledge not taking steps to work in her behavior. She is of the “nothing is my fault” type & blame, blame ….
I’ve asked her to seek therapy for her behaviors but instead I am the problem. For everything. As were her 4 other partners.
"Gradually, they can move on to sublimating aggression, for example by becoming social justice activists, moral crusaders, soldiers, cops, surgeons, entrepreneurs, or other similar professionals."
Is this the reason why we see so many NGOs and highly aggressive self-proclaimed saviors of the world? It really sounds like a reasonable explanation!
Damn. Feel so called out and heard at the same time. I’ve begged 10+ therapists to help me. I guess that’s the problem I’m an adult begging for help like a kid. But everyone of them I’d explain a relationship situation I could feel wasn’t right and I just wanted to know what I should be doing different. What was wrong with me. I haven’t done anything “wrong” to anyone but I felt wrong about everything. And it looks like I’ve got a good handful of traits from all these bags.
How have all my actions just been manipulative till this point. It’s so gross to look at. I was so so so unaware before it almost feels like looking back at an animal. No internal process just blind strong emotions and impulses.
Right there:: “I haven’t done anything “wrong” to anyone “
Yes you did. If you don’t own that, you will never heal. Your pain cannot be an excuse to hurt anyone, anymore.
@@Holly........ lol ok
Wow. It was like you were speaking right to me around the 16:40 mark. I needed this more than I was initially cognizant of. Thank you Dr. Vaknin
Married for 11 years, separated finally a month ago. I was cheated on, blamed for it, he punched cars, televisions, broke plates. I was trauma bonded for sure. Needed to keep a home for the kids. Finding him breaking boundaries of porn, broke the camel's back. It's been a LONG, painful relationship. I wish I'd had a therapist who was even 1/2 as knowledgeable as Prof Vaknin and it would've saved myself and my kids. He was diagnosed with Borderline in rehab but NPD is involved I'm sure. Why can't therapists be more educated?? Now it's time to see why I stayed for so long instead of focusing on what happened with him and attempt healing on my end.
why did you stay for so many years ?
He adopted my biological kids. They were in their teens and didn't want to move back to my family in NH. I couldn't support us all by myself. I was waiting until they could go out on their own.
So you were using him until you didn’t need him? That’s a big chunk of someone’s life to take.
@@Rakibrown111but it’s always the male ex that’s the narc 😂
@@NoName-nq8vc yea it's weird isn't it, despite nearly all magazines for women being aimed at purely themselves, whereas men tend to have interests beyond the purely self centered.
Excellent video and answered so many questions I had. The 33:38 mark - she puts her mother on a pedestal and beats up (figuratively) on me, her partner. My exwBPD (same sex) and I were LDR before we hooked up (first day she came into town btw!) but our 1st conversation was 7 hours long!! I heard every single aspect of her crazy ex’s and stories I think were about her but she said they were @ her friends. I saw all kinds of red flags!! 9 years later off & on, I’ve been discarded completely twice by her. Silly me for going back for more 🤦🏼♀️
you weren't silly. Just kind and loyal. I'm sorry you went thru all of that.
@@JenniferToon4 thank you, that’s sweet. I’m still struggling. Hard to be strangers at this point.
@@princhipessa1969 Well of course. 9 years is a long time. I read once that sometimes, heartache never goes away, we just have to make peace with it the best we can.
@@JenniferToon4 I guess that’s where I am. This heartache won’t go away, I will love her from afar. Thank you 😊
I sure do appreciate you and your humor.
Sam, as always, your videos are so thorough and informing. Such a wealth of information given by you for free on cluster b behaviours is a veritable treasure for those suffering from or involved with such personalities...thank you...in this video you stated that the "victim" of the bpd strategies would usually be an "unhealthy" male (typically). Could you consider expanding on this "unhealthiness"? I was the "victim" of a bpd who utilised these two specific strategies to reel me in...I was caught hook, line and sinker...the video probably explains why she latched on to me, but, the unhealthy aspect on my own part intrigues me and it seems, I too, may need therapy or healing for this. I'd appreciate if you could consider go some way to explain the unhealthness you speak of...
You have no idea how much this resonates with me
Hey Sam, Im from Brazil and I'm a Med student. I want to specialize in Psychiatry and I love to study from your videos. Im also diagnosed with BPD and on treatment for 4 years with therapy and medication and recently the sympton that is bottering me the most is hypersomnia. I no longer act out or have bpd crises, but sometimes I sleep for more than 20hrs, I think that is a way to run from my problems. Can you talk about it in a video? Thanks for the work you do here.
Sam thank you so much just recently found you and I am amazed at the amount of content you have that I find so applicable to myself sometimes not in a good way, but I am learning a lot and am able to make sense out of my life with a different perspective now I’ve been going through your playlist. THANK YOU!
Has anyone had an experience where the current borderline girlfriend of your ex narcissist was stalking you? OR telling your ex-narcissist you were stalking her prompting him to attack you physically? I'm guessing this is the weird triangle Sam references? Family court trapped me into this mess during a 6 year custody trial. She would stalk me, then tell my abuser I hurt her somehow and he would run to the court with it. I was accused of parental alienation and not co operating with the narcissist and stalking at the same time. If I didn't give him information about the kids I was alienating, if I did then I was stalking. A smart Guardian ad Litem saw this and finally had all his visitation revoked. A year later, he broke in my house and attacked me accusing me of kidnapping his girlfriend. Crazy scary
Yes! I was just lucky that I had no kids with him. .but at one stage I had narc hoovering, while being tracked by the lunatic he was/is with. Her smirking nearly drove me to smack her one... Especially after the abuse I had endured from the narc. Offensive really. One of them let the air out of my car tyres... 😳🙄
Ive been with someone who was diagnosed with BPD for years, but couldnt remember of the signs at the early stage of dating, now recently matched with a girl online. She has few self trashing pics, i thought she might be frustrated. Despite the provocative pics, when i asked few basic questions she wether couldnt answer them as if she wouldnt have a core self, or made a deep honest almost bitter philosophical question from them. On day 3-5 after few messages 1-3 per day (that i tried to control quantity wise, so i could filter out love bombers) the balance has completely gone, the questions that she barely asked were gone, whatever i said about myself rarely was lost in the air, and on day 5 she sent me kilometer length life issue problems.. i thought she was ashamed about it, and answered with understanding and i asked the next day if she is doing better, another 3 of them followed. She blames society. She uses the app as distraction as she said. The issue she was talking me about that someone breached her private space. I dont know if she ever heard about how to set boundaries and respect others. Im a bit upset because she appeared to be funny and intelligent in first few messages a lot better than other girls online who are disappointing immediately. well maybe they are better in a sense that they are not just wasting my time.
This was brilliant. You pretty much described my experience with a female pwbpd
Genuine question from potential BPD female … if you take away the illness what is left, what do you see in your patients? All you genuinely talk about I have seen in me, but also you generally grant us as hollow, empty baring the disproportionate, unhealthy cooping mechanisms and fantasies… no wonder we are terrified of healing when there seems to be nothing but the emptiness waiting for us on the other side if we ever succeed… we have no ego, personality of our own or ability ( brain to connection to perceive it and work through it) … what happens to us during the healing journey? What happens to our brains and our world during and after ?
I’m absolutely not an expert but emptiness seems to be at the core of it. Accepting the emptiness is like accepting death but in my experience, there is sone kind of unconscious consciousness there which is real, just very undefinable. Yet it’s healing in it’s own way and gives a sense of existence and realness but feels dangerous. I think it’s so deep and original to our development to go there and try to heal takes an enormous amount of psychological intelligence almost. I’m probably not making sense, it’s akin to only being able to use the sense of touch within, without sight or language to guide one’s understanding. Yet after a while one can get a sense of one’s psychological landscape and core via those means.
I do feel hollow inside, like someone is sitting on my chest and I can’t breathe fully. I feel like a frozen branch that could easily snap in the wind. It’s an actual feeling as well as a trait
Sending kindness. Thank you for sharing.
Prof Vaknin, all the borderline traits that you mentioned in this video is accurate, as a borderline I always turned my lies into another version, I didn’t admit it was a lie, in my mind it was just the feeling change. I will say whatever to a person or promise anything to a person ( because I was the type that is hard to say no)then later on I will change my mind due to the feeling change.
I realize that aggressive exercise has been how I managed BPD my whole life and I wonder if part of it is that it’s a healthy outward aggression? I tried to find research on exercise effects on BPD and seems inconclusive but I believe it’s the healthiest way I’ve managed my symptoms. Thanks!
Bordeline's has a terrible reputation bcs ppl thinks all are the same,there can be an overlap in personality disorders,so if someone have met a Borderline with Narcissistic traits,they may thinks all Borderline's is like that.There are 4 types of Borderline.Sam Vakning is an Malignant Narcissist,married to a Borderline and have told they have a big heart and empathy,there's Narcissists who don't have empathy! He has earlier told that Borderline's becomes a secondary Psychopath when they becomes angry,my sister will probably agree with that in 2 situasions we had as teenagers.... My daughter told as a child that I became easily angry and fast gentle again. As a 58 years old I have got calmer and don't gets easily angry, and are more patient than in my yonger days. Sam Vaknin has a interwieu with his wife Lydia and other video's about Borderline. Dr Judy Rosenberg says Borderlines are the Scapegoat child of a Narcissistic mother. JazzyT.
Excellent video, help us understand our awkward situations.
At one time I was really mad (drunk like hell) at one georgeus bordeline female friend (and jelaous ...) and at the end of the night I unlished a long tirade (by phone when I left the place) of nasty words to her of how awful she is etc., cursing, you name it, and then the next time I saw her I appologized to her (because it was really too much ...), and she was glad to see me, her bodylanguage confused me as it was in a position of: "you are great", I'm happy to see you, hello my hero..., yet she said with her words that she wanted to fight me so bad, and at the same time offered me a drink and look at me with eyes like I'm some kind of god ... It was mind boggling ... Black is white, white is black ... It makes no sense, I don't gamble but it's like having a casino woman, you never know when you're gonna win or lose ... My mother is similar kind of woman and all other women as you said Mr. Vaknin are to me like black and white picture, like objects, cars, nothing compared to this atomic bomb of a woman 😄
Sam, why does bpd women make plans and don't follow through on them? And, you later find out that they double and triple book plans at the same time. Thanks and great work!!!
תודה רבה על ההרצאות המרתקות!
How does an infant who has never attached to a mother separate and individuate with no one to direct that process towards?
no idea my mom put me in foster care . I have a disorganised attachment style
Holy shit you hit the nail on the head. I'm mind blown.
On the steps you give for practicing Nothingness one of them is getting bored. Now on this video you show boredom is a form of internalized agression. Could you please explain the difference between a "good" and "bad" boredom state?
It's probably just relative to your relationship with the concept philosophically.
If you reframe your paradigm then the concept of boredom can shift from feeling existentially negative to a neutral or positive value.
ur my life mentor
Other two hallmarks of cluster B are jealousy and envy. Both of these seem such dead ends, if you feel jealous or envious what can you do to cure it? Please suggest how can anyone overcome these feelings.
@@clouddancer46 yes, ocassionally, from time to time every person feels jealousy and envy, but with Narcs/Cluster B its very frequent. Its a constant theme in their interactions and behaviours.
Very fluid to covert N. More open self blame...
Please talk more about borderline men!!!
Watch my videos on covert borderine.
Why is this soooo meeee😥😥😥
Dear Prof. Vaknin, i have Borderline myself and since you've talked about this in your video, i want to ask you something. So we Borderline women truly believe that we can make these so called 'players' or predatory men get addicted to us by using our sexuality. Yet, as you have pointed out, they often leave and do not come back. Why is it so though? Why do they use us once and never come back? Is it because we are not good enough? Or why doesn't this work? I mean you have pointed out that we offer kinky sex and are willing to fulfill almost any sexual fantasy of the man we are with. So why do they not come back?
Diversity. Novelty. FOMO.
Thank you so much 🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
Is the borderline’s deep, personal revelations upon first meeting, a sort of calling for the mother? Is it related to the co-mothering that Dr. Vakkin has described within narcissism?
Search the BPD playlist.
Profound as always. 👏
3:00 mating strategy
Thank you 🙏
Damn! I feel sorry for those who has to deal with these people.
I have BPD and my insignificant other is a covert NPD. We deserve each other to the point of mutual destruction. But, what is love if not infatuation for nothingness? I'd rather have this love story than a sane and healthy bs that would make me bitter, not better.
Shakespeare put it “Thy maketh faults graces that to thee resort”.
Does this promiscuity apply to all borderline women? As this seems the only area that doesn't apply to my situation...although she did mention previously of being răpĕd which ties in w what is said here.
Most borderline women are reckless, impulsive, and act out. But promiscuity is only one possible manifestation of such behaviours.
She is doing it, you just don't know it. Trust me (and everyone else) by the time you realize what's going on, you'll be in absolute disbelief of what you learn. The need supply, validation, acceptance, and seek attention. If they have a primary partner they will have sex just to relieve a co-worker, or to make a man feel good. Every man says " no I can't see my girl doing that"..... but when they ghost you claimig they need space, they're not sitting alone crying. They're allowing some man to relieve himself inside of her. They will have sex like this and think nothing of it. They won't even believe it is cheating. If caught, they're say they were raped, manipulated, had an episode, or it was their medi action.
i have traites of borderline . i can’t say i act out . Not sexually . I am a binge eater though ..
I love Sam V!
Is the Borderline woman dangerous? Would her best efforts prevent her from physically harming her children, for instance?
They can be dangerous when they're in the secondary psychopathic state. My ex had the guy she was cheating on me with hit me with his pickup truck (rear ended while I was stopped and was a back seat passenger) at a high rate of speed. It was lucky nobody was killed (I was in a Volvo and I really think that helped) though there was some semi-serious injuries. I sustained a head injury. It took me a few years before I was able to piece everything together and figure out that she was behind the whole thing, though she did sort of tell me she was when she was in a strange, dissociated state one evening a couple days after the incident. Her voice was soft and sounded like it was coming from far away. She seemed on the verge of tears and kept repeated the "accident was all her fault", but she wouldn't elaborate further. She sat on my lap and was uncharacteristically soft and gentle. I tried to comfort and tell her that it was crazy....how could it be her fault? Like I said, it took the distance of a few years for everything to come into focus. I confronted her with it (we had long been broken up by then, but we had a child together so had to remain in touch) and she denied and gaslighted me for years. Only recently has she finally admitted to it but I still haven't gotten and explanation or an apology. I also am pretty sure she tried to poison me, but that's another story. Anyway, I went to the hospital twice about a week apart. So yes, they can be dangerous. I think they are usually OK towards their children, thank god..
Please I need more explanation about codependency
Marker 7 mins.
Shush a neem?
Yes I love that topic too sooo cheer me up XD