Beech trees are very strong and competitive. They usually dominate the forests they grow in, and if left to their own devices can push out almost all other tree species, including other heavyweights like oaks. They even make life for non-tree forest plants miserable because they are so good at closing the canopy and hogging all the sunlight. I couldn't help but think how this seems quite fitting for the Golden Order, who didn't tolerate anyone they considered different and actively pushed them out. Also goes to show how powerful the original rootstock must be when they wanted to graft their already strong tree onto it.
I always got something of a less "push out, destroy" type vibe and more of a "fold in, and subvert". I mean, like how TA says Marika supplants the libation priestess, keeping the icon but making it hers. Further, Serosh was apparently a Lord or something at some point, yet now he's serving the Order. Similarly there's a dragon Lord yet some dragons appear to serve Order and teach some Erdtree Knights magic. Also Caria, and this is to say nothing about TA's theories of eternal Leyndell.
Man, this channel is criminally underrated. The fact that you can create a coherent set of narratives for what has been going on in the Lands between using predominantly environmental evidence just blows my mind. well done!
The Archeologist is *criminally* underrated. I honestly don't think I'm subscribed to a single page on RUclips that has me so excited as when a new lore video is released here.
@@music79075 "Dendrology or xylology is the science and study of woody plants (trees, shrubs, and lianas), specifically, their taxonomic classifications." I was curious what it meant too, so I looked it up 😊
This makes me wonder whether Godwyn the Golden was born before or after the Omen twins. Until now, I assumed he was the youngest child, golden not only due to the lineage, but because he came after tragedy which made him even more dotted upon. Now, I wonder if Marika was especially moved by his death because he was a symbol of the strongest time of the Erdtree and her reign, which subsequently begun waning with the birth of the twins. His death quite literally meaning the symbolic death of the golden scion...and we see his cursed body poisoning/killing it quite fittingly down to the roots so it can't even be restored anymore by burning. Not really.
As I recall, the wailing finger maiden in Deeproot Depths actually speaks of Godwyn as "a scion of the Golden Bough". Yeah, this really puts Marika's grief into a new light.
I think some of the item descriptions in the game specifically point out that Godwyn was the first of the Demigods. Morgott and Mohg being born afterward would then be the shock to the system for Marika as it shows how her Age has cracks in it and can’t be held up indefinitely, which would explain why she decided to delve further into the inner workings of the Golden Order and to not rely on blind faith. Godwin’s death would still be the tragedy that causes Marika to shatter the Elden Ring since he was the firstborn of the new Golden Age, and wasn’t affected by the influence of Outer Gods or other defects like Miquella and Malenia. With his soulless body destroying the Erdtree from within, and the symbolism of assassinating the firstborn child, this would prove to Marika that her planned Age of Plenty and the Golden Order was useless and futile in the end, which is why she shatters the Elden Ring, which in its current state represents her Age. It’s possible that she foresaw that her Age might end soon, which was why she made the decision to banish the Tarnished many years beforehand for such a possibility, but Godwin’s death was the final nail in the coffin, and in her despair she forcefully ends her own age.
@@agopessimist1335 A lot of item descriptions name Godwyn the first of the demigods to die, but I can't recall that they name him the first. Is there a chance you can find those item descriptions? This is very interesting. Especially the implications of the "omens" in this sense. Why after his death, the other children Marika has with Radagon, that should be without fault since they're (dare I say genetically) the same yet they're both "ill". And it also makes sense that "genetic variety" between Radagon and Rennala (who is not in the tender to golden lineage but remnant heiress of the offshoots who once competed with it) makes healthy children (though no more sane). The "grafting" of the different "God" aka shell that houses the elden ring also comes to mind in this video, and why being an Empyrian aka made from the same "beech" tree is important to carry the Elden Ring. The implications for Ranni then are also interesting: even though she was born an Empyrian (of the beech tree) clearly Rennala's involvement secured her avoidance of inheriting the foreshadowed illness of the Golden Lineage. It really makes me question how she was conceived/birthed.
@@agopessimist1335 "Morgott and Mohg being born afterward would then be the shock to the system for Marika as it shows how her Age has cracks in it and can’t be held up indefinitely, which would explain why she decided to delve further into the inner workings of the Golden Order and to not rely on blind faith." This would also help explain her motivation for sending away Godfrey and marrying Radagon in his stead: she realizes the Age of the Erdtree will not last forever, which means even she will inevitably be replaced. She can only be properly replaced with an Empyrean, and the only guaranteed way to create one is having a child with herself. This explains why she rejoins with Radagon when she starts to question the Golden Order even though her Radagon side is a very dedicated fundamentalist supporter of the status quo. Actually, I wonder if she somehow excised her own fundamentalist beliefs and forced them onto Radagon at this time to enable her introspection in the first place? Because it sounds like Radagon was very open-minded and amenable to compromise when he was still at Raya Lucaria. Regardless though she certainly knew "preparing for the inevitable fall of the status quo" and "reuniting myself with an alter-ego who will zealously defend the status quo at all costs" were two deeply contradictory goals. I don't think she predicted the shattering specifically (i agree it was an impulsive decision born of grief) but she could recognize that the mutually exclusive goals of her two halves were impossible to reconcile. To break this inevitable deadlock she proactively banishes the Tarnished with orders to one day return, knowing that she will one day need their help against Radagon when she eventually acts to overturn the status quo in favor of some new order
@@Baconomics1 There was always a threat in royal lineages of the reigning monarch to fail to produce a suitable heir. None of her children with Godfrey were Empyreans. The only Empyrean within Marika's possession was her sort of stepdaughter, sort of biological daughter Ranni, which would be fine except for one problem. Ranni was also the daughter of her political rival, Rannala and very much influenced by Rannala. So, it wouldn't surprise me if Marika didn't like where that was headed. So, she does what any good monarch does: Produce an heir with someone related to you. And since the closer, the better, Marika decides to marry herself. No way this can go wrong! Miquella and Malenia are born with aflictions. And what's funny is their aflictions may be based on real life diseases that children born of incest are at an increased risk of inheriting, which includes Noonan syndrome, which can cause stunted growth, and Hansen's disease aka leprosy. That's technically a communicable disease (as Malenia's Scarlet Rot is technically communicable) caused by bacteria, but only people with certain genetics can actually get it. It basically damages the nervous system which can increase the risk of infection, injury, and even loss of limbs.
This lays out perfectly and sensibly things that I could sort of intuit from the surface level lore and storytelling. At the same time it blows my mind that the art of grafting and the name "Grafted Scion" holds so much meaning.
I tried watching a few of Vaati's videos and I have to ask. Isn't Vaati just subjective surface level appeals to emotion? Every video I've seen of his was definitely trying to elicit emotion, not thought.
@@Trakesh I've been thinking about this myself the past year. And that's extended to the greater lore community, which in a way he kind of pinoneered back in DS1 days thanks to his emotional videos. But a lot of people are afraid of doing what Tarnished Archeologist does - they're afraid of drawing inferences and using inductive reasoning to make conclusions. People feel like they need facts stated in item descriptions, or worse, they're afraid of looking into real-world inspirations or the original Japanese text for analysis. It's weird - people seem to either be afraid of making theories or they assert facts based on badly translated information and refuse to do extra legwork.
@@Trakesh Not necessarily. Vaati has a lot of relevant factual information, it's just he focuses on different aspects of the lore. Everybody have their own shtick, and there's something for everybody. No one person will ever cover, or even know everything. From Software games are designed to be pieced together by a community, it's not expected for somebody to crack it on their own. Everybody will have their own findings, ideas, perspective. For something yet different I'd recommend Hawkshaw, you may find him to your liking. He also started back in Dark Souls days, with his quite lengthy but very in-depth musings about some obscure topics, and he continues in the same vein in Elden Ring.
@@Quicksilver_Cookie I agree with you here, but also think Vaati has too dominant of a role and he makes content that makes it easy for people to disengage and unquestioningly accept one dominant narrative as the only actual explanation of the story(/stories)
This channel, along with Charred Thermos' series on Bloodborne's "medical metaphor" have both made me extremely appreciative of Fromsoft and the sheer range of symbolic and literal inspirations they're willing to pull from. Never in a million years would I think of the real life agricultural practice of tree grafting as being an interesting allegorical component for an entire fantasy setting. It's so easy to only pull from your favorite movies, novels and video games (something the people at Fromsoft certainly do mind you) but to then go the extra mile and pull from so much of the real world, pulling from ideas and phenomena that some people might not even care much about on their own. It's no wonder the world's of Fromsoft always feel so distinct and unique. It shows what creativity and curiosity for the world around you can contribute to your work as an artist.
I thought the Misbegotten in the Haligtree were the inhabitants of its branches, since it was supposed to be a place for everyone and everything. Like the painted worlds from dark souls, gentle places away from those who would persecute. After all there is a Leonine Misbehotten kneeling in front of a statue of Miquella and Melenia, invaders would never hold reverence for their enemy that way
His theory does have some holes in that regard. But it is still possible that all misbegotten would act in the same way. Some would want to bring back their divinity, others would prefer moving on to a new era
I agree. The last part about the Misbegotten rebelling against the Haligtree felt like a huge doorknob confession, and this is the first time I've heard this theory. I like the point you make, Oliver, about the unlikelihood that they would hold reverence. There've been a lot of points that emphasize the Misbegotten being in favor of Miquella and the Haligtree. Not saying TA's theory is wrong. The lore is obviously not clearly defined. I just need to review some of the other evidence presented by other lore creators and compare.
I watch these videos for the real life comparisons that are difficult to find on your own like historical parallels ect and learn what was missing from just reading item descriptions; like for the whole concept of tree grafting fits perfectly with what the crucible is in relation to the golden order and omen. But I just ignore all the random stuff he blurts out. Like that claim you're referring to could have made more sense if he actually went into it rather than just say it real quick with 2 random things to back it up and ended the video like excuse me what?
I just want to say: the misbegotten at the haligtree aren't praying, they're throwing their arms to the air upwards in indignation, or incomprehension, or bewilderment, perhaps even asking for mercy, you could see that gesture in multiple ways, but they aren't reverentially praying like that misbegotten in leyndell, and indeed looks to me like cursing the gods. It does also makes sense that there would be one faction openly, actively hostile to the haligtree still, as seemingly no one else gives two fucks. I know Mohg effectively killed the original haligtree project, but he didn't do so because he fundamentally oppossed it, as ultimately Mohg's plan also revolve around destroying the erdtree (and therefore the crucible), he just wanted Miquella. The misbegotten, however, do have reasons to annihilate the haligtree if they are crucible crusaders, and they do have a theme of rebellion and overtaking for some purpose in the game. Also, note there aren't misbegotten in Elphael, past Loretta, meaning she is keeping them out. There are albinaurics in Elphael, which we know actually belong to the haligtree faction, why wouldn't the misbegotten be there too if they in favour of it? I don't know, TA may be wrong on this, but I don't think he came to that conclusion from nowhere, the misbegotten being there as invaders makes as much sense as they being there as refugees.
Yeah, the misbegotten seem to be at peace with the other Elphael residents up in the Haligtree's branches, and IIRC, they don't have any friendly fire either. Miquella wanted to help the downtrodden and the oppressed, so the misbegotten may have thought that he'd design the Haligtree to be like whatever their ideal of the Crucible was.
I went to school for Agroecology which, naturally, consisted of a lot of horticultural courses- honestly, no notes. Pretty damn impressed with your comprehension and application of terms, techniques, and concepts of the trade with accuracy. And then go on to apply them to the lore in a such a compelling way- there was maybe a teeny smidge that seemed like a bit of a stretch, but I mean this is a 98/100 imo
@@tarnishedarchaeologist almost a year on, and I just still feel the urge to reemphasize just how compelling this case is as you examine the overlap of where plant physiology and horticultural practices intersect with the thematic, narrative, and symbolic aspects of this game. I genuinely feel with 99.9% that the game’s creators very much had these things in mind when crafting the world
@@f.p.2010 i dont think i disagree with anything- that .01% is just a little bit of headroom im leaving in case further processing reveals deeper insight
Oh my...the fact the Misbegotten were born of the tree during the era of the crucible is so obvious that its hurts my pride that I didn't realize this on my own. Then again, I never even thought about how Dragons were born and that they probably came from an earlier iteration of the great tree.
@Erich Owens I don't think so. I think they are creatures(one of a few) that exist outside the tree birth process. Malenia even asks what is must feel like to have a birth mother like Boc does.
@@erichowens85 I mean, that has always existed. The lands outside, specifically the one the samurai hail from, is described as a Land of Blood - even the dragon's Great Tree didn't reach that far, but humans exist there now all the same. I guess it's possible all life on the planet was born from the Greater Will impacting it with the Elden Ring but... eh. While the Greater Will might have brought life to the Lands Between, life almost definitely already existed there as well, likely as baseline humans or close to it. Demihumans would seem the natural mid point between baseline humans and the offspring off the Great Tree's variants, explaining their human base but pretty varied expression - you kind of see this "flavoring" of baseline humans with the rot dudes as well. This ties into the origin of the status of Tarnished - they are sorta demihumans, baseline humans mixed with new Erdtree type shit, making them golden but... stained by something. Blood, and thus birth/lineage, if we're going for thematic completeness. This might hint at why Marika so abruptly threw Godfrey away in favor of Radagon, who basically doesn't exist before that point outside of some general she controlled - she was panicked about her own "impure" copulation results, likely blaming Godfrey's lineage (for results see: fucking yourself for kids with Radagon). With Godwyn's undeath effectively removing the Golden Lineage and poisoning the root system, she couldn't even burn the tree down and start a millennia long process of regrowth, the whole thing had to either be destroyed or wholly replaced - hence her declaration: "Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..." They have to make something of themselves or else. Period. There is a fatal tone here that can't be understated: she knows that unless something DIFFERENT is done, none of them will survive. How, then, can she try to make sure that something is done? Easy. Break the fucking Elden Ring. Can't use this Root system growing from it now mother fuckers, do something else. Of all of the endings I think the only one she would be against is the Frenzied Flame ending, as it's going to burn far more than the tree and it's roots. This is likely why this is the only ending in which Melina promises to hunt you down and kill you. Of course, that ties into another, separate somewhat batshit sounding theory that Melina is a partial clone of Marika, rebirthed into the body of the Gloom Eyed Queen, which was done at the foot of the Erdtree after her defeat, but that's another topic all together.
Before watching the video I would like to say that "Omen of what?" has been the biggest question that I've asked myself ever since I first read that they were called that. The only assumption I've come to make is that they are an Omen of a return to the crucible, as their (and the beastmen in general's) existence is tied closely to the crucible. As the golden fire/fingers full of life/Chaos Flame is hoping to do in order to fix the broken world of Elden Ring. Since nothing else will repair the world from its currently broken state.
Agreed. The Golden Order always goes on and on about how "perfect" it is, and the Crucible is "impure and to be kept away from", so I had always seen the Omen name as being an unwilling acknowledgement by people of the fact that their order is not nearly as perfect as they claim. The Laws of Regression and Causality make up the fundamentals of the Order, and according to them any action is caused by another action, and it is possible to step backwards through the chain of causality to revert back to an original form. So by the very laws the "perfect" Golden Order is built on, the Golden Order is fundimentally built atop the foundations of the Crucible, and with the increasing appearance of Omen and Misbegotten, it's a sign that the Crucible may be starting to return and take over the so called "perfection" of the Golden Order. They were named the Omen because everyone knew what they really meant, that the Order was not in fact perfect, and the Crucible was fundamentally part of the Order, yet no one wanted to really admit it, so they instead tried to paint over that reveal with evil phrasing, giving them the names of Omen, and Misbegotten to try and maintain the illusion that "we are right, you are wrong".
@@Late0NightPC To be fair here, the reason we find for the Order not being perfect is not the Order itself, but rather Marika, and other humans running it. Goldmask for lyfe
@@NoConsequenc3 If that was the case, then we wouldn't even need Goldmask. What Goldmask did isn't "fix the problems within the Golden Order", but rather he "made a new version of the Golden Order that fixed the problems of the previous version". The Mending Rune of the Death Prince says that the Golden Order was created by Confining Destined Death, meaning that the discrimination against undead was what began the "age of the Golden Order". Goldmask saw that "all the good and great wanted was an absolute evil to contend with", that anyone who seeks greater heights will call themselves as "good" and those who oppose them as "Evil", with the other group doing the same thing to the first, leading to conflict and war. His Mending Rune of Perfect Order would stop that via removing that fickleness, making an age where no one attempts to paint any side as "good" or "evil". The current Golden Order is defined by it's "We are good, they are evil" ideology, so by removing that ideology, you no longer have "The Golden Order", but something that looks like it, but has different fundamentals, meaning it isn't the same thing.
From what I've noticed in Japanese culture chaos doesn't necessarily mean destruction it could metaphorically stand for something that is out of order. So say things like the beast and dragons and creatures with all the parts like wings and tails could be seen as chaotic because there seems to be no order structurally and anatomically but the golden ORDER seeks balance and ironically loses that balance
The use of a Kings List in relation to grafting is some top notch writing. Literally a bunch of tiny warlords claiming lineage to ancient and possibly fictional kings of the past in order to grant themselves more legitimacy and power. Stray thoughts. Funny how Radagon's symbol is that of thorny vines. Vines on a tree are usually a bad sign that the tree is being parasitized. Really hope we learn more about who/what Radagon is at some point. Hm, the frozen lake at Mountaintops is probably a frozen over caldera. This may have been mentioned at some point elsewhere but it's the first time it's really sinking in for me. The Death Rite Birds are also associated with a conifer. Though priests of the Death Rites were interred within the birds rather than the tree. I don't recall anything explicitly stating that the Death Rites were opposed to the dragons or their order. But a refusal to be a part of their order does read like a very intentional snub. Maybe humans weren't generally a part of the draconic order and it was only a privileged few who became incorporated with the great tree and became "misbegotten"? Knowing Miyazaki, there is often some lie hidden in the foundations of his worlds. Some bit of the order which we are told about which is not actually as it appears. I'm fairly confident that there is something we are being misdirected on in all of this tree business. But I have no idea what it is.
About Radagon vines: Marika own origin is still a bit vague (did she graft the Erd tree Scion, or was she born from it), but Radagon intentions seem to be a further extension and refinement of 'preserve Marika and the golden order' at the expense of all else. ie Radagon has a very strange connection to the misbegotten in the Concecrated Snowfield; The Misbegotten Crusader wields Radagons Golden Order Greatsword! When Miquella broke faith for his own tree, Radagon manipulated the misbegotten to scuttle that attempt. About the Death Rite Birds: many fruiting plants spread their seeds via birds eating their berries. If in the ER lore people are literally fruit of a tree, some might opt that when they are 'ripe', their next step in life is to be consumed by a bird and eventually crapped out into fresh soil far away. Likely outside the Lands Between. Or into it, if the LB was first a conifer-only continent, before the 'human peach seeds' were brought in by the Death Rite Birds. Edit: TA was talking about Beech trees, not Peach trees. Oh well, it was a nice thought.
@@AmryL That's an interesting idea about Radagon being connected to the misbegotten. Or really just instigating their rebellion. Speaking of beech trees. The American beech was the primary food source of the now extinct passenger pigeon(!) It's thought that the primary reason for the pigeon's extinction was the clearing of beech forests. Obvious problem with Death Birds being related to the passenger pigeon, Death Birds are associated with a coniferous tree, not the Erdtree. And of course, From being a Japanese company, they were probably thinking more about the Japanese beech. Which, I can't find a whole lot of info on with a quick search. Maybe there's a Japanese conifer with a similarly extinct bird that relied on it? Or maybe this seeming relation is actually correct and a clue as to that whole "lie underlying the world" thing I wrote about? I dunno, interesting possibilities coupled with some time spent learning about beech trees. There's definitely more to glean from investigating real life trees and their ecological relationships. Marika's tits, now we need botanists in the lore community. It never ends.
Radagon's symbol might actually be a lattice, as those can be used to help plants grow. He also seems to have taken inspiration from the magical seal on the gates of Raya Lucaria.
@@nightscout9979 Lattice... His symbol is referred to as vines, which are somewhat parasitic; they grow up the trunks of other trees to reach sunlight nearer to the canopy. Domestic vines (ie grapes) are given lattices to support them instead. As for the academies seals, Radagon was present in the carian house for quite some time, and used his symbol liberally (preceptor mask). I'd say the sorcerer's just coopted his seal in their ward to help keep trespassers out. So yes, good call!
Sir, you just blew my mind completely. To imagine that all this metaphors and symbolism exist in the game as a way to build its world it’s almost unbelievable in this day and age. Amazing work piecing it all together. Kuddos!
She's from Nokron. Bet she's a successful artifical God. She made Radagon by splitting off her loyalty to the Golden Order so that he would be a trusted general, but then she took him as King Consort after Mogh and Morgott's twin omen birth. Issue is likely that Radagon has no soul. Perhaps the fact that Marika is useless all game and a husk is because her own soul isn't there - it's with Melina. Marika and Radagon both are hollow in the end, after all, and the only ending Marika would have disliked is the Frenzied Flame, which burns everyone and everything. She wanted survivors, and when you decide there shouldn't be any, Melina promises to hunt you down.
Even if it’s a bit unrelated omens and horns in general have a minor theme about “accumulation of souls” in ER. Though deer boss is more related to the vitality part of it.
The Erdtree being deciduous also lends further support to it being burned before - it symbolically "loses it leaves" in the autumn, when it becomes illusory, dies in the winter, when it is burned, and then springs to new life...
One issue with the Haligtree theory - Miquella created the Haligtree as a place of refuge for people like the Misbegotten and the Omens, a place away from the scorn of the Erdtree where they could be accepted. So it’s possible that the misbegotten we see there weren’t invaders, but residents. We see many misbegotten kneeling in prayer throughout the Haligtree, in particular a Leonine misbegotten kneeling before a statue of Miquella and Malenia, as if in reverence. The body of the noble might just be there as a place to put the Ancient Dragon Smithing Stone for the player to pick up, since that particular leonine misbegotten does respawn and it wouldn’t make sense for it to drop the stone upon being defeated.
Some of the most concise and convincing connections I've seen from any lore interpretation videos. Genuinely feels like this is the what the background lore of the world actually is. As we can see the massive stump in the deeproot depths that indicates an even more massive tree than the Erdtree not aligned with where it wouls have emerged above ground. Showing the Golden Order is actually built on a world which never died, existed long before and will even overtake the Erdtree again
Dude, you're seriously amazing! I always find myself looking forward to your next video. The Omen being literal omens of the tree, makes so much sense with how they are discriminated against. GRRM undoubtedly loves to write lore from the perspective of unreliable narrators. This video put a lot of the story into perspective for me and the grafting bit makes me feel a parallel to Malenia's "Daughters" meaning the old Empyreans(Speculation)were twins to Marika... Or other Numen. Great work TA
Another thing that should be noted is The Ulcerated/Putrid Tree Spirits. These crop up all over the place, but there are a few things to them that might indicate that they share the same origin as Omen, just applied to tree spirits. Firstly, they have that same holy cursed 'stink' to them that Omen do and frequently explode with it. Second, they seem to be in a mangle of different parts from both tree and animal. A serpentine body, fleshy growths and dragon-like claws. Third: They frequently show up as catacomb bosses, in places where the roots of the great tree are present. They also frequent places that have something that might corrupt/kill the erdtree(presence of rot or deathroot, or the blasphemy of Mr Gelmir) and it's no coincidence that hordes of them show up in the capital after you burn the erdtree and unleash destined death.
I’ve been an avid watcher of countless elden ring lore videos over the winter. This video, more than any other, has helped me make sense of the religions and histories of this game. What an incredibly detailed (but simple and accessible) explanation! Kudos to you
I know for certain that these videos take a tremendous amount of work. But please keep doing them! These are revelations that the vast majority of players would never, ever have by themselves. There's a huge amount of information in your videos that broaden the meaning of so much stuff in the game. I agree with other comments that these are among THE BEST lore videos on Elden Ring out there. In the end, I feel like watching your videos makes us part of something bigger, like a community united over the appreciation of a work of art.
Maybe the most virtuous thing about Miyazaki is that games aren’t his primary interest but a vehicle for him to express his diverse curiosities-cross-pollination is so powerful in design. I think your videos do a really fantastic job of demonstrating this power. This is more than just “lore,” it really is virtual archeology.
This is absolutely crazy. Please don't stop. You're earning your keep right now, man. Putting in the work and producing a body of top-tier lore videos that WILL eventually blow up and get you noticed on the grand stage. I'm done messing with Vaati and his self aggrandising channel. You're the best Elden Ring lore master on youtube!
@@DragonZombie2000 lol eh your sad and bitter comment is actually cringe. Why are you in the “pseudo intellectual” comment section commenting. I really hope you’re not serious.
The amount of information you can pull from the environment is astounding, and it really speaks to just how deep the lore truly goes, their attention to detail is insane. I love your videos, I feel like I'm watching old school History channels shows.
I will never stop loving how often that music at the start is used for military or combative underscoring, when it's the party scene music from the ballet of Romeo and Juliet.
So far i explored the souls genre with an alchemical and an cultural/mythological eye, but your perspective opened me a hole new world to look at ! Thank You so much !
Whenever you release a new video, it's the highlight of my day. Every one of your videos has blown my mind with insights that seem so obvious in retrospect. I can't say the same for any other content creator. Please keep making this superb content! Honestly, I would be devastated if you stopped. Nobody else is on the same level of analyzing From Software's work under the lens of real world historical context; an approach which you've proven consistently yields new discoveries because of the undeniable parallels you draw to real history and culture.
What an incredibly strong video - nice ending! This makes the timeline of Elden Ring a lot more transparent. Also, quite a lesson in biology was had here, thank you for putting thhis together. I never thought about the Misbegotten possibly being invaders at the Haligtree, I just surmised them to be another group of refugees seeking belonging there.
talking about the crucible, i noticed that the lost grace checkpoints are basically representations of the crucible drained out of life (the base of roots) and the Erdtree growing out of it (the grace). I said this cause i noticed the weird mass of roots looks like a cup and the crucible symbol at the centre of the Crucible's knights armor.
this channel consistently blows my mind. I can't believe how much the game's environment is informing the player but we're too busy desperately trying to not die so we don't notice lmao
Your videos make me appreciate elden ring’s devs and creators so much more. Literal god level planning must have went into making this masterpiece of a game.
So grateful for all the hard work and insight and expertise you bring to these. I think finding your channel is the second best thing Fromsoft brought me this past year.
I don't think any other YT channel has made me say "Ohhh!" as much as The Tarnished Archeologist. I've learned as much about the real world as I have about the game thanks to these videos.
I love how games can just take a mundane idea like grafting plants and make a whole world out of it, thanks for the cool knowledge that will now live rent free in my head.
Just amazing! My nose was almost at the screen when you explained crown sprouting. Finally these statues make sense. Also connecting the literal Omens to this concept.. I bow my head to your work researching all of this
This is a wonderful take, a visual element that always intrigued me in the game's concept arts showed the interior of the tree where there is a stone resembling an anvil (where Marika hits with her hammer in the act of breaking the ring) "nailed" to the stump or at the base. Now it looks a lot like a scion being nailed like in the grafting pictures you brought up. In fact, the stone in question bears a strange resemblance to the meteor models found in the game, having holes and a golden color inside. Maybe it could be something along those lines.
@@tarnishedarchaeologistBy the way, there's other concept art that does a good job of highlighting the budding phenomenon in deliberately cut trees. In this case it seems to be a concept for an underground area using old pale trees to grow a multitude of buds. In the under-ground areas of the game however, I remember only one case among those old white trees that shows sprouts, which would be a stump in the area of Mohgwyn's palace (just before the grove where giant skeletons spawn). Seems to imply an old practice known in these lands .
Elden Beast arrived to Lands Between on a golden star. Meteorites carry cosmic lifeforms in the game, with onyx/alabaster lords for example being alien lifeforms that arrived on a meteor. Perhaps Marika found the meteor fragment as a girl, and as an adult, nailed the golden meteor into the stump, sprouting the golden Erdtree we know. Elden Beast was grafted unto the old great tree, perhaps? It would make sense that Marika would receive her eventual Erdtree graft from the heavens.
These videos are so damn good. Most lore forums and videos drive me absolutely nuts with the amount of reaching and assumptions stacked on poor assumptions stacked on poor assumptions. Obviously there is other great work out there, but wading through the stuff that drives me nuts is a big obstacle for me. Well done, truly amazing work.
With all this knowledge that you show us, it is so amazing all the work that you put into this videos. you should be number one in LORE for Elden ring. You take the lore part to another level. as Elden Ring deserves it. I NEED more ... I am not sated....
You’ve actually done something that the other Elden ring youtubers haven’t done: using real world archaeology to analyze the narrative design of Fromsoft. I’m so enthralled by these videos, not the overly produced ones of the other RUclipsrs. Keep making these as they feel educational and most likely, and most importantly, correct to Miyazaki’s vision.
This has me even more convinced of your other videos as well! It makes perfect sense, Godfrey’s armies defeating other competing scions and crucible outgrowths. I wonder if the competing trunks have anything to do with the outer gods and their factions?
Yes, great to correlate with previous videos! Often we are aware that some of the more controversial statements in our videos have explanations and confirmations in future episodes in production. We could try to answer some of the points raised, but to give the story the attention it deserves, we would rather not cram a slogan of an explanation in a reply, instead let the next episodes tell the story in full and rekindle those discussions. The awesome thing is that you all stick around for it!
Jesus the research and work Fromsoft put in to make a world out of all this arboreal analogies is amazing, given that it flys above virtually every everyone’s head. Likely without you nobody would ever have realized how deep this rabbit hole goes. It’s so coherent I can’t see how it possibly cant be intended.
Im consistently impressed with how deep you go in every episode, and not only that but how much work the dev team themselves put into all these little details. It really is like a living breathing world. Thanks for helping my dumb ass understand the lore and gain a greater appreciation
Few questions, s'lot to try and remember: are you set on the Erdtree being grafted onto the crucible rather than arising naturally as part of it? If so, then where did the Erdtree bud come from, Marika? How would she gain access to it? Was it infused with gold originally or did it become gold from the grafting since the Elden Ring's gold is intrinsic? What era did the beastmen arise from? If the misbegotten are human, draconic and beastly, then that means the beasts came from a tree as well, doesn't it? But the beasts came after the dragons when the dragons were still in full control - was their root system sprouting multiple kinds of life? Then why did the beasts gain intelligence? Where do the demihumans fit in all this? They're clearly a midway point between human and beast but not explicitly chimeric - assuming natural evolution doesn't work in this world, how would they come about? One of the rivals to the Erdtree during the crucible era?
@@jackharrow7147 I'm not sure if demigods are a distinct race in Elden Ring like the Gods were in Dark Souls. They're demigods because they're the children of Marika, who became a god, but it isn't said that it's because she was inherently different - at least until she became the vessel for the Elden Ring. ...which, now that I think about it, kinda fits your hypothesis. Maybe the beasts that gained some form of runes from the earliest Elden Ring turned into dragons the same way that demigods increased in size and power. This also makes degeneration consistent, with the wyverns being comparable to Godrick, distant relations with diluted blood - which adds another layer of meaning to him calling a wyvern head "a trueborn heir" (actually was that point in a Tarnished Archaeologist video, already). Thinking on that early Elden Ring though, is it possible that the beasts gained intelligence through a mending rune? The first order was shattered, beasts picked up the pieces, became dragons, created a mending rune of intelligence that granted intelligence to all the other beasts and Placidusax ruled as the first Elden Lord. And to push the boat out a little further, let's say that first order was actually the One Great, which is why the Frenzied Flame hates individuality and intelligence, granted by dragons reforming the Elden Ring into an order of division. Still no clue what's up with demihumans though.
As usual I disagree with some of the conclusions but I cannot praise enough the unparalled quality and depth of the video. Truly among the most pleasant content around and it keeps the streak of consistently amazing works. Kudos Specifically I am unsure that the misbegotten came as invaders, since the red leonine chimeras are mostly confirmed to be Radagon's experimentation. Furthermore the Leonine Crusader carries a Radagon heirloom with him. On the other hand there is not a single misbegotten past Loretta's guardpost, so it could still be argued as an invasion. But it could also be that the praying misbegotten are simply among the downtrodden who met Miquella 's favor. Other categories of shunned ones like albinauric, living dead and rot infested clearly were in Miquella's mind in various ways. Then again, if omens amd misbegotten were consciously worshipping the roots, it would make them factually incompatible with Miquella's plan.
I would not put it past Radagon to try and destroy Miquella Haligtree to preserve his own golden order and to set up the Misbegotten Crusader to do the dirty work. And I think you are right saying that Loretta's fight is the transition from Malenia's shattered half of the Halig-twined-tree, to Miquella's and his knights side. It might even be that Radagon knew that Miquella would become stunted and just needed the Malenia half destroyed.
@@AmryL Radagon is very hardly a destroying type. He is the father of Fundamentalism and a scholar and diplomat in approach. Granted, that's not a guarantee of friendliness but it's hardly in his character.
@@matteoflamigni550 Isn’t the connection between Radagon and the red-haired Misbegotten mostly cut content, though? Some of the old files name them as children of Radagon, which doesn’t make sense since Radagon is described as a loyal dog of the Golden Order, which despised the Omen and Misbegotten. It doesn’t make sense for Radagon to be the one to experiment on Misbegotten when someone fanatically loyal to the Golden Order like him would normally scorn them. That said, I am still a bit lost on the presence of Misbegotten in the Haligtree. Them seeking the Haligtree for salvation would make sense since Miquella doesn’t seem like the kind of person who would selectively choose who to provide sanctuary for, if he would accept even 2nd generation Albinaurics. But on the other hand, if the Haligtree was meant to be a sanctuary where the downtrodden could “reincarnate” (hence why there are so many cocoons in Elphael), then it could make sense why the Misbegotten would rebel or invade since they seem to embrace their bestial roots. Maybe some chose to embrace the Haligtree and it’s promises of reincarnation and acceptance, while some would balk at the idea of losing their bestial traits for a place of acceptance, and rebelled or attacked. Or maybe Miquella’s absence and the false promise that came with it broke them and they slaughtered everything in revenge. Loretta would of course keep guard to the city. Not all factions have to have the same unified goal all throughout. There could have also been splinter groups in each faction with their own ideals and thoughts on the matter. Morgott was an Omen who ironically loved the Erdtree despite its order rejecting him and his kind, while Mohg embraced his Crucible roots.
@@agopessimist1335 Radagon is described as "dog" by Marika in japanese not to underline is fanatism but rather that he would preserve the world's logic (aka Golden Order) rather than shattering it, and to remark that he is inferior to her. "Hound" is a poor choice of traslation. About Radagon being a fanatic, to put it simply he is anything but. All evidence points toward him having an inquisitive personality, avoiding violence, loving knowledge and philosophy and even being a loving father admited by his sons. Again: he founded Fundamentalism which in Elden Ring is born as the exact opposite of what its name indicates. He making his own brand of chimera to better understand the Crucible would make perfect sense.
You make some good points, and glad to have you as always. The albinaurics seem to have a special role in Elphael (as they are being transformed in the cocoons), so we shouldn't assume the various downtrodden creatures are all there with similar intentions or purposes.
Where does it say that the Erdtree was grafted? Wasn't it one of the many diverse sprouts from the crucible that was selected and tended, or proved its fitness by outcompeting?
11:28 holy shit so wait. They literally replaced an EVERGREEN tree-one which doesn’t change with the seasons-with an ANGIOSPERM-one which does change with the seasons. The writing for the fallibility of the Erdtree was on the wall from the very beginning!
while thinking about the game's lore on my free time, i had also come to the conclusion that the features described in the crucible incantations (and in omens) were very reminiscient of dragons, but would have never arrived at the erdtree gratfing conclusion, amazing work, it must have required a lot of studying and research! also the fact that dragon worship does not contradict the erdtree belief (gravel stone seal) further corroborates this theory, that the current erdtree that comes from the crucibe used to "produce" dragons. what is interesting is how the elden ring and the "red" from the dragons' lightning, the "gold" from the erdtree (and by extent the greater will) and the red tinted gold of the crucible relates to all of this, but i would just be speculating at this point without any concrete evidence
just to be clear before you mix the golden order with greater will you should realize that the dragons and farum azula had lots of five fingers symbology so its far more likely the golden order is just marika's thing and the greater will has nothing to do with it, in fact if anyone grafted a tree its probably marika and the nox who care called marika's lineage in the game files
Good work in the references to pruning and grafting in real life, it really helped sell the concept. Never would have thought of omens like that but it makes sense they'd be all dragony. Thanks for the upload!
Thinking about the idea that the greattree used to produce dragons, what are your thoughts on Greyoll being the 'mother of all dragons' in the modern age? I think it fits in perfectly with this idea as it would also provide an implied reason for their evolution into a new form, as they've started reproducing sexually rather than via the greattree.
With ancient dragons, who were likely born of the tree, being bloodless, and blood being attributed as quality of the Formless Mother, I'd say Formless Mother is Outer God that governs sexual reproduction. (Also fits the idea that Mohg is trying to kick-start sexual revolution instead of tree-based one. His worshippers even harvest Demi-human Queen blood who are only people capable of giving birth). Numen, the Black Knifes and Radagon/Marika are all immune to bloodloss, interestingly enough.
Damn, this adds so much perspective to the layout of everything, why Mohg is deep underground and why the haligtree is so far away, why there are enormous severed trunks underground that contrast so sharply with the golden trees above, the spectral trees, the dragons and their strange misbegotten half-ilk. That was fascinating
This is incredible, thank you. The one question that I've yet to see anyone answer is how do we reconcile this idea of being born from the erdtree with the fact that Marika and her lovers had progeny?
@@rogeriovictorcarreirademel5369 the description says, "Turtle meat is said to boost virility, but none in the Lands Between seem to have much appetite for it these days. In Lands Between, the urge to reproduce has waned long ago." This would indeed indicate that natural reproduction has occurred, but perhaps it did in a manner distinct from the erdtree. Perhaps both forms of reproduction exist? My theory is that since both Marika/Radagon and Hoarah are from other lands, that they would still reproduce naturally. But that begs the question of Renalla. How was she born?
Man, it brings me great joy to see so many commenters stopping by just to show their appreciation for your stuff! Every special interest group has it's pillars and it's trailblazers who help to move the niche forward, and you have more than earned your place among those ranks within this community. The value of your contributions to Elden Ring lore, and the additional depth of understanding it has brought to us as a whole just cannot be understated. I know I already complimented your work last video and I don't mean to come off as a boot-licker or anything, but I would find it totally criminal were I to abstain from such encouragement. Keep up the stellar work TA!
But I thought that the Haligtree was supposed to welcome everyone with open arms? Isn’t that why the Albinaurics so desperately wanted to get there? I thought the Misbegotten were there for similar reasons: to find themselves a home. In the same vein, seeing all the other species there, from the giant ants to the mages, and everyone in between, I thought they were all protecting the Haligtree… After watching this though, I’m now thinking they were all vying for control over the Haligtree? Each faction has control over their section, but much like the stalemate between the demigods more broadly in the Lands Between, no one is able to take over the entire Haligtree?
Was wondering the same thing but that makes sense. Ants are on the branches. Misbegotten are exclusively in the town, and those related to Caria/Raya (mages and Loretta) are on the platforms just outside of Elphael. Does that mean the sorcerers are also warring against the Haligtree or did they arrive to defend it? I don't know enough about that dynamic to know. Fascinating either way.
@@TSpoon823 given that they are the giant battle mages, I’m assuming they’re on the offensive. Is there any other example in the game where they are “defending” anything? All the ones doing any sort of defending, like those guarding Lusat/Azur, for example, are always the little mages, no?
@@Hovane5 great question and point. I'm not sure. Considering Loretta's possible connection to the Albinaurics, who desired to find a new home at the Haligtree, I assumed she was there to defend the entrance to Elphael. So the mages would be there with her. But it's a great question. Either way, it certainly paints the whole scene in a different light.
i dont think the misbegotten are there to rebel against the haligtree, the haligtree was made for beings like them, why would they want to control it when it was made specifically for those shunned by grace which they are? and if they're in conflict fromsoft definitely would've highlited that just like they do in caelid with radahn's knights and the wildlife or they could at least make their attacks affect the haligtree inhabitants but they don't and us as matter of fact if you fight the two battlemages in the haligtree and the misbegotten at the same time they both attack you in tandem and their hitboxes don't affect each other, their placement is just a level design quirk and nothing. I feel this paints the misbegotten as some sort of unintelligent beings only out to rebel and seek control when they're the opposite, a race of creatures who seek their own freedom and are fighting against their oppressors like in leyndell or castle morne.
you're probably the only lore youtuber who actually gives some resolution to mysteries scattered throughout the game, and I've watched a lot of such content creators. when I watch your videos, there's a guarantee I will learn something neither I thought of myself, nor any other lore youtuber have spoken about in their videos, aside from maybe Zullie.
Now I'm left to wonder... who, or what, decided to graft the golden scion onto the crucible? The Elden Beast? Also I don't understand the very end of the video; if the misbegotten are invaders to the haligtree, then why do we see them praying to the tree in various locations? Why hasn't Loretta turned them all into paste?
I was thinking about this too, and I remember one misbegotten that's praying to a St. Trina statue specifically. Makes me wonder if some of the misbegotten might have split off from the popular opinion, and believe that creating a new root system is the way to go, even if their brothers disagree.
Yeah, i interperated the misbegotten at the Haligtree as them wanting to join Miquella's new order to escape from their opression. I see TA's point on them being crusaders to uphold the old way in remembrance of the crucible and better times for them, but i think their hatred for the current order as their opressors and a desire to be free from the Golden order far outways tradition. Thanks TA for this dope vid, more misbegotten pls they are so cool.
this also explains the wars marika and godfrey waged and why so many were against the erdtree. they had to wipe out all other religions in order for the erdtree and the golden order to flourish. it was a scramble to either establish a new dominant order or maintain the multiplicity of the crucible, but i wonder if anyone else had been trying to graft their own trees at the same time
After countless videos about the omen i could never seem to wrap my head around what they were and why they were so hated. Until now. this video finally made it all make sense
The observation that the Erdtree was grafted onto the previous tree…That really blew my mind. It’s never stated in the text of the game but it clicks all these pieces into place. Thank you so much for this.
The Duelist Helm (dropped by the gladiators in Leyndell) says that snakes were seen as traitors to the Erdtree. What could be a greater betrayal to a sacred tree than a new sprout.....
@@falloutarchon4861True, more like they painted the dragons/snakes they bretrayed as the traitors " This new sprout is now the just one, of the one and only Golden Order "
I'd never considered the possibility the Misbegotten might not be happy with the Haligtree. Like most other people, I thought Miquella had welcomed them there, as he does to all those who are not accepted by society. On the note of Misbegotten, do you have any theories as to why the Misbegotten might be "Radagon's Children"? Or do you think that's a removed plot point, purely cut content?
this was amazing! so many things i didn’t understand about the crucible are now clear, i was not expecting anything close to this many revelations oh my goodness. amazing work!!!
Strongly disagree with the misbegotten invading the haligtree, they dont fight the rotten inhabitants, they are praying to the haligtree, they dont fight the mages in front of loretta
So, this is the first time I really significantly disagree with the Archaeologist, and it’s across a few different angles. The most important one is the Omen. Specifically, I think you’re overlooking what a lot of lore channels overlook: that there is a literal, manifest curse in the Omen, present from Morgott onwards, and which can command wraiths and haunts their dreams with mocking, cruel figures. This is not just a draconic feature (and I basically agree with you on the origin of the Misbegotten, that part is well founded). The Misbegotten, who never show signs of the yellow curse-flame, are draconic; the Omen are something else. No Omen in the game uses the incantations of the Crucible, or displays wings or scales; nowhere do we see the Misbeggoten troubled by the Omen’s nightmares. An important aspect of this is the reference within the name ‘Omen’ which is not, I think, recognized by this video: it is a reference to the Medieval use of the word ‘monster’ or rather, the Latin root of ‘monstrum.’ The word monster meant ‘show’ or ‘display’ - effectively, synonymous with Omen - and so the birth of a monster, a congenitally malformed animal or human, was seen as a signal that something was wrong in the world. This is the precise history of the Omen, and so we find their antecedents in medieval ideas. Specifically, a monstrum (taking from the Greco-Roman tradition of monsters such as the Minotaur) is the sign of a sin, of something done that disrupted the proper order of nature. This is where the Omen seem most relevant, and when we see the Omen ending, it is not the rootstock’s reemergence but the Age of Despair, when every soul is cursed with the nightmares and agony of the Omen. So, where does that leave us? It leaves us with a few options, as I see it, and a few loose pieces of evidence. Crucially, the Omen cannot return to the Erdtree. That is the nature of the curse, that the tree’s roots reject them. Two, that even in the very early days, the Omen appeared, and appeared from the royal family. This is to say, the Omen are linked directly to the pinnacle of the Golden Order, and even those omen as old as one kind display the curse-fire (importantly, because otherwise we could suggest that the curse is the manifest cruelty done to the omen by the Golden Order; but since Morgott has cursed blood, I don’t think it can be that). My suggestion is that the Omen represent the effect of something fed to the roots that could not be digested, a toxin which the Golden Order could not purify - and which resides in souls. Perhaps it was a sin of the Erdtree’s defenders; perhaps it’s like Radagon’s red hair, a curse left over from the wars. But the Omen are not a monstrum of the Crucible alone; they are something else, though I am willing to believe it has to do with such a grafting as you describe. But the curse is not the crucible.
Besides this, I am not sure I agree with your take on the Misbegotten in the Haligtree, since I’m pretty sure you can find them worshipping at statues of Miquella and Malenia. I think it is more likely that their crusade is like the exodus of the Albinaurics - That there is a place for the low and the meek at the Haligtree. But I’m much less certain of this than the Omen, and would need to go poke around the Haligtree to firm up my position.
However: all that being said, that doesn’t make this any less excellent a production, or any less thoughtful a video, than usual! I disagree with some core theses but the methodology and the seriousness of consideration are as always top-notch. The Erdtree as a grafted tree also has a particular magical element in the lesser Erdtrees, as they appear to be clonal sprouts rather than grafting - and Marika’s Golden Order changed the nature of the Elden Ring by removing Death. Perhaps the ‘grafting’ of a deciduous Erdtree changed the nature of the roots as well, via the removal of Destined Death, so that clonal sprouting in deciduous form occurred. Also, really nice catch with the beech.
There’s also a very nice bit of environmental storytelling in the Omen and the Church of the Forsaken deep underground - how do Omen keep being born? Perhaps it’s because the Omen thrown into the sewers can in fact return to the roots, in the very place Mohg seems to have found the Formless Mother. An ancient pre-Erdtree sanctum where the nomads were buried alive, further underlining that the Golden Order’s own cruelties are rebounding on its head.
Ok slight correction: one Omen has wings, and it’s Mohg and it’s only after a direct act of his god, and the wings don’t resemble any other wings in the game. So I stand by the position that the Omen, even if they have some connection to the Crucible, are not purely an instance of Crucible expression. There’s something else there.
I could not overstate just how amazing your content is! I have seen most likely over a hundred hours of Elden Ring ring lore videos, but you always manage to bring something so new and influential to the discussion and I'm blown away! Sometimes a person will have all this information and are unaware that while they can exist separately, one additional understanding can link them all! I feel like I actually understand the Erdtree and its cycle of life, the omens, the misbegotten, grafting, I need to let these revelations sink in for a bit...
Beech trees are very strong and competitive. They usually dominate the forests they grow in, and if left to their own devices can push out almost all other tree species, including other heavyweights like oaks. They even make life for non-tree forest plants miserable because they are so good at closing the canopy and hogging all the sunlight. I couldn't help but think how this seems quite fitting for the Golden Order, who didn't tolerate anyone they considered different and actively pushed them out. Also goes to show how powerful the original rootstock must be when they wanted to graft their already strong tree onto it.
Beech tree? I thought he said PEACH tree... on the premise the myth about Momotaro, the boy born of a peach.
@AmryL ...read the screen...?
I always got something of a less "push out, destroy" type vibe and more of a "fold in, and subvert". I mean, like how TA says Marika supplants the libation priestess, keeping the icon but making it hers. Further, Serosh was apparently a Lord or something at some point, yet now he's serving the Order. Similarly there's a dragon Lord yet some dragons appear to serve Order and teach some Erdtree Knights magic. Also Caria, and this is to say nothing about TA's theories of eternal Leyndell.
Coniferous trees are just as capable of pushing out other trees.
Holy shit
Man, this channel is criminally underrated. The fact that you can create a coherent set of narratives for what has been going on in the Lands between using predominantly environmental evidence just blows my mind. well done!
Thank you!
Indeed
+!
Well it's actually fromsoft who created it, it's just been largely decoded by TA
Maybe it's Miyazaki's secret RUclips persona!
The Archeologist is *criminally* underrated. I honestly don't think I'm subscribed to a single page on RUclips that has me so excited as when a new lore video is released here.
What a wonderful compliment
About the beech tree to keep records, in the queen bedchamber you can see records written on tree bark.
Interesting, I thought they were birch bark.
I really love the extensive dendrology underlying Elden Ring lore and story. It seems like the deeper you look, the more you find.
Dendrology?
That's one of those words like Kingseeker Framps word, "elucidate".
@@music79075 the science and study of woody plants
@@music79075 "Dendrology or xylology is the science and study of woody plants (trees, shrubs, and lianas), specifically, their taxonomic classifications." I was curious what it meant too, so I looked it up 😊
The story has very deep roots.
This makes me wonder whether Godwyn the Golden was born before or after the Omen twins. Until now, I assumed he was the youngest child, golden not only due to the lineage, but because he came after tragedy which made him even more dotted upon. Now, I wonder if Marika was especially moved by his death because he was a symbol of the strongest time of the Erdtree and her reign, which subsequently begun waning with the birth of the twins. His death quite literally meaning the symbolic death of the golden scion...and we see his cursed body poisoning/killing it quite fittingly down to the roots so it can't even be restored anymore by burning. Not really.
As I recall, the wailing finger maiden in Deeproot Depths actually speaks of Godwyn as "a scion of the Golden Bough".
Yeah, this really puts Marika's grief into a new light.
I think some of the item descriptions in the game specifically point out that Godwyn was the first of the Demigods. Morgott and Mohg being born afterward would then be the shock to the system for Marika as it shows how her Age has cracks in it and can’t be held up indefinitely, which would explain why she decided to delve further into the inner workings of the Golden Order and to not rely on blind faith.
Godwin’s death would still be the tragedy that causes Marika to shatter the Elden Ring since he was the firstborn of the new Golden Age, and wasn’t affected by the influence of Outer Gods or other defects like Miquella and Malenia. With his soulless body destroying the Erdtree from within, and the symbolism of assassinating the firstborn child, this would prove to Marika that her planned Age of Plenty and the Golden Order was useless and futile in the end, which is why she shatters the Elden Ring, which in its current state represents her Age.
It’s possible that she foresaw that her Age might end soon, which was why she made the decision to banish the Tarnished many years beforehand for such a possibility, but Godwin’s death was the final nail in the coffin, and in her despair she forcefully ends her own age.
@@agopessimist1335 A lot of item descriptions name Godwyn the first of the demigods to die, but I can't recall that they name him the first. Is there a chance you can find those item descriptions? This is very interesting. Especially the implications of the "omens" in this sense. Why after his death, the other children Marika has with Radagon, that should be without fault since they're (dare I say genetically) the same yet they're both "ill". And it also makes sense that "genetic variety" between Radagon and Rennala (who is not in the tender to golden lineage but remnant heiress of the offshoots who once competed with it) makes healthy children (though no more sane). The "grafting" of the different "God" aka shell that houses the elden ring also comes to mind in this video, and why being an Empyrian aka made from the same "beech" tree is important to carry the Elden Ring.
The implications for Ranni then are also interesting: even though she was born an Empyrian (of the beech tree) clearly Rennala's involvement secured her avoidance of inheriting the foreshadowed illness of the Golden Lineage. It really makes me question how she was conceived/birthed.
@@agopessimist1335 "Morgott and Mohg being born afterward would then be the shock to the system for Marika as it shows how her Age has cracks in it and can’t be held up indefinitely, which would explain why she decided to delve further into the inner workings of the Golden Order and to not rely on blind faith."
This would also help explain her motivation for sending away Godfrey and marrying Radagon in his stead: she realizes the Age of the Erdtree will not last forever, which means even she will inevitably be replaced. She can only be properly replaced with an Empyrean, and the only guaranteed way to create one is having a child with herself. This explains why she rejoins with Radagon when she starts to question the Golden Order even though her Radagon side is a very dedicated fundamentalist supporter of the status quo. Actually, I wonder if she somehow excised her own fundamentalist beliefs and forced them onto Radagon at this time to enable her introspection in the first place? Because it sounds like Radagon was very open-minded and amenable to compromise when he was still at Raya Lucaria.
Regardless though she certainly knew "preparing for the inevitable fall of the status quo" and "reuniting myself with an alter-ego who will zealously defend the status quo at all costs" were two deeply contradictory goals. I don't think she predicted the shattering specifically (i agree it was an impulsive decision born of grief) but she could recognize that the mutually exclusive goals of her two halves were impossible to reconcile. To break this inevitable deadlock she proactively banishes the Tarnished with orders to one day return, knowing that she will one day need their help against Radagon when she eventually acts to overturn the status quo in favor of some new order
@@Baconomics1 There was always a threat in royal lineages of the reigning monarch to fail to produce a suitable heir. None of her children with Godfrey were Empyreans. The only Empyrean within Marika's possession was her sort of stepdaughter, sort of biological daughter Ranni, which would be fine except for one problem. Ranni was also the daughter of her political rival, Rannala and very much influenced by Rannala. So, it wouldn't surprise me if Marika didn't like where that was headed.
So, she does what any good monarch does: Produce an heir with someone related to you. And since the closer, the better, Marika decides to marry herself.
No way this can go wrong!
Miquella and Malenia are born with aflictions. And what's funny is their aflictions may be based on real life diseases that children born of incest are at an increased risk of inheriting, which includes Noonan syndrome, which can cause stunted growth, and Hansen's disease aka leprosy. That's technically a communicable disease (as Malenia's Scarlet Rot is technically communicable) caused by bacteria, but only people with certain genetics can actually get it. It basically damages the nervous system which can increase the risk of infection, injury, and even loss of limbs.
This lays out perfectly and sensibly things that I could sort of intuit from the surface level lore and storytelling. At the same time it blows my mind that the art of grafting and the name "Grafted Scion" holds so much meaning.
I must confess. As much as I love Vaatividya’s videos, I like yours more.
I tried watching a few of Vaati's videos and I have to ask. Isn't Vaati just subjective surface level appeals to emotion? Every video I've seen of his was definitely trying to elicit emotion, not thought.
@@Trakesh I've been thinking about this myself the past year. And that's extended to the greater lore community, which in a way he kind of pinoneered back in DS1 days thanks to his emotional videos. But a lot of people are afraid of doing what Tarnished Archeologist does - they're afraid of drawing inferences and using inductive reasoning to make conclusions. People feel like they need facts stated in item descriptions, or worse, they're afraid of looking into real-world inspirations or the original Japanese text for analysis. It's weird - people seem to either be afraid of making theories or they assert facts based on badly translated information and refuse to do extra legwork.
@@Trakesh Not necessarily. Vaati has a lot of relevant factual information, it's just he focuses on different aspects of the lore. Everybody have their own shtick, and there's something for everybody. No one person will ever cover, or even know everything. From Software games are designed to be pieced together by a community, it's not expected for somebody to crack it on their own. Everybody will have their own findings, ideas, perspective.
For something yet different I'd recommend Hawkshaw, you may find him to your liking. He also started back in Dark Souls days, with his quite lengthy but very in-depth musings about some obscure topics, and he continues in the same vein in Elden Ring.
@@Quicksilver_Cookie I agree with you here, but also think Vaati has too dominant of a role and he makes content that makes it easy for people to disengage and unquestioningly accept one dominant narrative as the only actual explanation of the story(/stories)
@@Trakesh Yes, he is really into the emotional story that can sometimes be very overlooked in this game's lore reading descriptions the first time.
This channel, along with Charred Thermos' series on Bloodborne's "medical metaphor" have both made me extremely appreciative of Fromsoft and the sheer range of symbolic and literal inspirations they're willing to pull from. Never in a million years would I think of the real life agricultural practice of tree grafting as being an interesting allegorical component for an entire fantasy setting. It's so easy to only pull from your favorite movies, novels and video games (something the people at Fromsoft certainly do mind you) but to then go the extra mile and pull from so much of the real world, pulling from ideas and phenomena that some people might not even care much about on their own. It's no wonder the world's of Fromsoft always feel so distinct and unique. It shows what creativity and curiosity for the world around you can contribute to your work as an artist.
I thought the Misbegotten in the Haligtree were the inhabitants of its branches, since it was supposed to be a place for everyone and everything. Like the painted worlds from dark souls, gentle places away from those who would persecute. After all there is a Leonine Misbehotten kneeling in front of a statue of Miquella and Melenia, invaders would never hold reverence for their enemy that way
His theory does have some holes in that regard. But it is still possible that all misbegotten would act in the same way. Some would want to bring back their divinity, others would prefer moving on to a new era
I agree. The last part about the Misbegotten rebelling against the Haligtree felt like a huge doorknob confession, and this is the first time I've heard this theory. I like the point you make, Oliver, about the unlikelihood that they would hold reverence. There've been a lot of points that emphasize the Misbegotten being in favor of Miquella and the Haligtree. Not saying TA's theory is wrong. The lore is obviously not clearly defined. I just need to review some of the other evidence presented by other lore creators and compare.
I watch these videos for the real life comparisons that are difficult to find on your own like historical parallels ect and learn what was missing from just reading item descriptions; like for the whole concept of tree grafting fits perfectly with what the crucible is in relation to the golden order and omen.
But I just ignore all the random stuff he blurts out. Like that claim you're referring to could have made more sense if he actually went into it rather than just say it real quick with 2 random things to back it up and ended the video like excuse me what?
I just want to say: the misbegotten at the haligtree aren't praying, they're throwing their arms to the air upwards in indignation, or incomprehension, or bewilderment, perhaps even asking for mercy, you could see that gesture in multiple ways, but they aren't reverentially praying like that misbegotten in leyndell, and indeed looks to me like cursing the gods. It does also makes sense that there would be one faction openly, actively hostile to the haligtree still, as seemingly no one else gives two fucks. I know Mohg effectively killed the original haligtree project, but he didn't do so because he fundamentally oppossed it, as ultimately Mohg's plan also revolve around destroying the erdtree (and therefore the crucible), he just wanted Miquella. The misbegotten, however, do have reasons to annihilate the haligtree if they are crucible crusaders, and they do have a theme of rebellion and overtaking for some purpose in the game. Also, note there aren't misbegotten in Elphael, past Loretta, meaning she is keeping them out. There are albinaurics in Elphael, which we know actually belong to the haligtree faction, why wouldn't the misbegotten be there too if they in favour of it? I don't know, TA may be wrong on this, but I don't think he came to that conclusion from nowhere, the misbegotten being there as invaders makes as much sense as they being there as refugees.
Yeah, the misbegotten seem to be at peace with the other Elphael residents up in the Haligtree's branches, and IIRC, they don't have any friendly fire either. Miquella wanted to help the downtrodden and the oppressed, so the misbegotten may have thought that he'd design the Haligtree to be like whatever their ideal of the Crucible was.
I went to school for Agroecology which, naturally, consisted of a lot of horticultural courses- honestly, no notes. Pretty damn impressed with your comprehension and application of terms, techniques, and concepts of the trade with accuracy. And then go on to apply them to the lore in a such a compelling way- there was maybe a teeny smidge that seemed like a bit of a stretch, but I mean this is a 98/100 imo
Excellent! Thank you for confirming
Which bit would it be?
@@tarnishedarchaeologist almost a year on, and I just still feel the urge to reemphasize just how compelling this case is as you examine the overlap of where plant physiology and horticultural practices intersect with the thematic, narrative, and symbolic aspects of this game. I genuinely feel with 99.9% that the game’s creators very much had these things in mind when crafting the world
@@Buckinghamrabbit okay but what's the last thing you don't agree with
@@f.p.2010 i dont think i disagree with anything- that .01% is just a little bit of headroom im leaving in case further processing reveals deeper insight
Oh my...the fact the Misbegotten were born of the tree during the era of the crucible is so obvious that its hurts my pride that I didn't realize this on my own. Then again, I never even thought about how Dragons were born and that they probably came from an earlier iteration of the great tree.
Should we assume the demihuman were from a similar but competing branch?
@Erich Owens I don't think so. I think they are creatures(one of a few) that exist outside the tree birth process. Malenia even asks what is must feel like to have a birth mother like Boc does.
Oh interesting, so they’re almost like a naturally evolving parallel development? Same with the horned ancestors underground?
@Erich Owens By horned Ancestors are you referring to the Omen like Morgott and Mohg?
@@erichowens85 I mean, that has always existed. The lands outside, specifically the one the samurai hail from, is described as a Land of Blood - even the dragon's Great Tree didn't reach that far, but humans exist there now all the same. I guess it's possible all life on the planet was born from the Greater Will impacting it with the Elden Ring but... eh. While the Greater Will might have brought life to the Lands Between, life almost definitely already existed there as well, likely as baseline humans or close to it.
Demihumans would seem the natural mid point between baseline humans and the offspring off the Great Tree's variants, explaining their human base but pretty varied expression - you kind of see this "flavoring" of baseline humans with the rot dudes as well. This ties into the origin of the status of Tarnished - they are sorta demihumans, baseline humans mixed with new Erdtree type shit, making them golden but... stained by something. Blood, and thus birth/lineage, if we're going for thematic completeness.
This might hint at why Marika so abruptly threw Godfrey away in favor of Radagon, who basically doesn't exist before that point outside of some general she controlled - she was panicked about her own "impure" copulation results, likely blaming Godfrey's lineage (for results see: fucking yourself for kids with Radagon). With Godwyn's undeath effectively removing the Golden Lineage and poisoning the root system, she couldn't even burn the tree down and start a millennia long process of regrowth, the whole thing had to either be destroyed or wholly replaced - hence her declaration: "Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices..." They have to make something of themselves or else. Period. There is a fatal tone here that can't be understated: she knows that unless something DIFFERENT is done, none of them will survive. How, then, can she try to make sure that something is done? Easy. Break the fucking Elden Ring. Can't use this Root system growing from it now mother fuckers, do something else.
Of all of the endings I think the only one she would be against is the Frenzied Flame ending, as it's going to burn far more than the tree and it's roots. This is likely why this is the only ending in which Melina promises to hunt you down and kill you. Of course, that ties into another, separate somewhat batshit sounding theory that Melina is a partial clone of Marika, rebirthed into the body of the Gloom Eyed Queen, which was done at the foot of the Erdtree after her defeat, but that's another topic all together.
Before watching the video I would like to say that "Omen of what?" has been the biggest question that I've asked myself ever since I first read that they were called that.
The only assumption I've come to make is that they are an Omen of a return to the crucible, as their (and the beastmen in general's) existence is tied closely to the crucible. As the golden fire/fingers full of life/Chaos Flame is hoping to do in order to fix the broken world of Elden Ring. Since nothing else will repair the world from its currently broken state.
Agreed. The Golden Order always goes on and on about how "perfect" it is, and the Crucible is "impure and to be kept away from", so I had always seen the Omen name as being an unwilling acknowledgement by people of the fact that their order is not nearly as perfect as they claim. The Laws of Regression and Causality make up the fundamentals of the Order, and according to them any action is caused by another action, and it is possible to step backwards through the chain of causality to revert back to an original form. So by the very laws the "perfect" Golden Order is built on, the Golden Order is fundimentally built atop the foundations of the Crucible, and with the increasing appearance of Omen and Misbegotten, it's a sign that the Crucible may be starting to return and take over the so called "perfection" of the Golden Order.
They were named the Omen because everyone knew what they really meant, that the Order was not in fact perfect, and the Crucible was fundamentally part of the Order, yet no one wanted to really admit it, so they instead tried to paint over that reveal with evil phrasing, giving them the names of Omen, and Misbegotten to try and maintain the illusion that "we are right, you are wrong".
@@Late0NightPC To be fair here, the reason we find for the Order not being perfect is not the Order itself, but rather Marika, and other humans running it. Goldmask for lyfe
@@NoConsequenc3 If that was the case, then we wouldn't even need Goldmask. What Goldmask did isn't "fix the problems within the Golden Order", but rather he "made a new version of the Golden Order that fixed the problems of the previous version".
The Mending Rune of the Death Prince says that the Golden Order was created by Confining Destined Death, meaning that the discrimination against undead was what began the "age of the Golden Order". Goldmask saw that "all the good and great wanted was an absolute evil to contend with", that anyone who seeks greater heights will call themselves as "good" and those who oppose them as "Evil", with the other group doing the same thing to the first, leading to conflict and war. His Mending Rune of Perfect Order would stop that via removing that fickleness, making an age where no one attempts to paint any side as "good" or "evil".
The current Golden Order is defined by it's "We are good, they are evil" ideology, so by removing that ideology, you no longer have "The Golden Order", but something that looks like it, but has different fundamentals, meaning it isn't the same thing.
From what I've noticed in Japanese culture chaos doesn't necessarily mean destruction it could metaphorically stand for something that is out of order. So say things like the beast and dragons and creatures with all the parts like wings and tails could be seen as chaotic because there seems to be no order structurally and anatomically but the golden ORDER seeks balance and ironically loses that balance
@@blackronin848The Lord of Frenzy ending literally has you destroy the world...
The fact the botanically oriented lore dives can still deepen after all these videos is really amazing. Great content.
It's pretty great, indeed. I think this really gets to the root of the connection between trees and lineage. Eh? Eh?!
Do you know if anyone talks on why the Erdtree has gold fungi on it?
@@Jadizi Fungi? Ziostorm is pretty big on that idea.
Over the years Miyazaki got me to dive deeper into philosophy, mythology, religion, mysticism, alchemy, history.... Let's add botany to that!
Absolutely, my thoughts exactly
Easily some of the best Elden Ring content around.
The use of a Kings List in relation to grafting is some top notch writing.
Literally a bunch of tiny warlords claiming lineage to ancient and possibly fictional kings of the past in order to grant themselves more legitimacy and power.
Stray thoughts.
Funny how Radagon's symbol is that of thorny vines. Vines on a tree are usually a bad sign that the tree is being parasitized. Really hope we learn more about who/what Radagon is at some point.
Hm, the frozen lake at Mountaintops is probably a frozen over caldera. This may have been mentioned at some point elsewhere but it's the first time it's really sinking in for me.
The Death Rite Birds are also associated with a conifer. Though priests of the Death Rites were interred within the birds rather than the tree. I don't recall anything explicitly stating that the Death Rites were opposed to the dragons or their order. But a refusal to be a part of their order does read like a very intentional snub.
Maybe humans weren't generally a part of the draconic order and it was only a privileged few who became incorporated with the great tree and became "misbegotten"?
Knowing Miyazaki, there is often some lie hidden in the foundations of his worlds. Some bit of the order which we are told about which is not actually as it appears.
I'm fairly confident that there is something we are being misdirected on in all of this tree business. But I have no idea what it is.
About Radagon vines: Marika own origin is still a bit vague (did she graft the Erd tree Scion, or was she born from it), but Radagon intentions seem to be a further extension and refinement of 'preserve Marika and the golden order' at the expense of all else.
ie Radagon has a very strange connection to the misbegotten in the Concecrated Snowfield; The Misbegotten Crusader wields Radagons Golden Order Greatsword! When Miquella broke faith for his own tree, Radagon manipulated the misbegotten to scuttle that attempt.
About the Death Rite Birds: many fruiting plants spread their seeds via birds eating their berries. If in the ER lore people are literally fruit of a tree, some might opt that when they are 'ripe', their next step in life is to be consumed by a bird and eventually crapped out into fresh soil far away. Likely outside the Lands Between. Or into it, if the LB was first a conifer-only continent, before the 'human peach seeds' were brought in by the Death Rite Birds.
Edit: TA was talking about Beech trees, not Peach trees. Oh well, it was a nice thought.
@@AmryL that's a really good point linking Radagon to the misbegotten attack on the haligtree
@@AmryL That's an interesting idea about Radagon being connected to the misbegotten. Or really just instigating their rebellion.
Speaking of beech trees.
The American beech was the primary food source of the now extinct passenger pigeon(!)
It's thought that the primary reason for the pigeon's extinction was the clearing of beech forests.
Obvious problem with Death Birds being related to the passenger pigeon, Death Birds are associated with a coniferous tree, not the Erdtree. And of course, From being a Japanese company, they were probably thinking more about the Japanese beech. Which, I can't find a whole lot of info on with a quick search.
Maybe there's a Japanese conifer with a similarly extinct bird that relied on it?
Or maybe this seeming relation is actually correct and a clue as to that whole "lie underlying the world" thing I wrote about?
I dunno, interesting possibilities coupled with some time spent learning about beech trees.
There's definitely more to glean from investigating real life trees and their ecological relationships.
Marika's tits, now we need botanists in the lore community. It never ends.
Radagon's symbol might actually be a lattice, as those can be used to help plants grow. He also seems to have taken inspiration from the magical seal on the gates of Raya Lucaria.
@@nightscout9979 Lattice... His symbol is referred to as vines, which are somewhat parasitic; they grow up the trunks of other trees to reach sunlight nearer to the canopy. Domestic vines (ie grapes) are given lattices to support them instead.
As for the academies seals, Radagon was present in the carian house for quite some time, and used his symbol liberally (preceptor mask). I'd say the sorcerer's just coopted his seal in their ward to help keep trespassers out. So yes, good call!
It's always a good day when Tarnished Archeologist uploads
see my banner for a cookie?!?
Sir, you just blew my mind completely. To imagine that all this metaphors and symbolism exist in the game as a way to build its world it’s almost unbelievable in this day and age. Amazing work piecing it all together. Kuddos!
So Marika being "of the same stock" as the assassin's grants a whole new meaning
She's from Nokron. Bet she's a successful artifical God. She made Radagon by splitting off her loyalty to the Golden Order so that he would be a trusted general, but then she took him as King Consort after Mogh and Morgott's twin omen birth. Issue is likely that Radagon has no soul. Perhaps the fact that Marika is useless all game and a husk is because her own soul isn't there - it's with Melina. Marika and Radagon both are hollow in the end, after all, and the only ending Marika would have disliked is the Frenzied Flame, which burns everyone and everything. She wanted survivors, and when you decide there shouldn't be any, Melina promises to hunt you down.
Bro, it's like you sat behind grrm as they fleshed out these ideas for world building.
The most compeling Elden Ring lore video I ever seen.
Even if it’s a bit unrelated omens and horns in general have a minor theme about “accumulation of souls” in ER. Though deer boss is more related to the vitality part of it.
The Erdtree being deciduous also lends further support to it being burned before - it symbolically "loses it leaves" in the autumn, when it becomes illusory, dies in the winter, when it is burned, and then springs to new life...
Excellent point
One issue with the Haligtree theory - Miquella created the Haligtree as a place of refuge for people like the Misbegotten and the Omens, a place away from the scorn of the Erdtree where they could be accepted. So it’s possible that the misbegotten we see there weren’t invaders, but residents. We see many misbegotten kneeling in prayer throughout the Haligtree, in particular a Leonine misbegotten kneeling before a statue of Miquella and Malenia, as if in reverence. The body of the noble might just be there as a place to put the Ancient Dragon Smithing Stone for the player to pick up, since that particular leonine misbegotten does respawn and it wouldn’t make sense for it to drop the stone upon being defeated.
Some of the most concise and convincing connections I've seen from any lore interpretation videos.
Genuinely feels like this is the what the background lore of the world actually is.
As we can see the massive stump in the deeproot depths that indicates an even more massive tree than the Erdtree not aligned with where it wouls have emerged above ground.
Showing the Golden Order is actually built on a world which never died, existed long before and will even overtake the Erdtree again
I love your theories. The amount of research you do is amazing.
Cool, thank you! Biggest donation we've gotten!
Is it just me or did this video just advance the entire lore discussion to a new level?
Dude, you're seriously amazing! I always find myself looking forward to your next video. The Omen being literal omens of the tree, makes so much sense with how they are discriminated against. GRRM undoubtedly loves to write lore from the perspective of unreliable narrators. This video put a lot of the story into perspective for me and the grafting bit makes me feel a parallel to Malenia's "Daughters" meaning the old Empyreans(Speculation)were twins to Marika... Or other Numen.
Great work TA
Wow, thank you!
"...unlike the other parts, which appear in animals, knots don't."
ABOs: 👀
Your content is amazing dude, so insightful and appreciative of the work the devs put into this world. Thanks!
Another thing that should be noted is The Ulcerated/Putrid Tree Spirits. These crop up all over the place, but there are a few things to them that might indicate that they share the same origin as Omen, just applied to tree spirits.
Firstly, they have that same holy cursed 'stink' to them that Omen do and frequently explode with it. Second, they seem to be in a mangle of different parts from both tree and animal. A serpentine body, fleshy growths and dragon-like claws.
Third: They frequently show up as catacomb bosses, in places where the roots of the great tree are present. They also frequent places that have something that might corrupt/kill the erdtree(presence of rot or deathroot, or the blasphemy of Mr Gelmir) and it's no coincidence that hordes of them show up in the capital after you burn the erdtree and unleash destined death.
I’ve been an avid watcher of countless elden ring lore videos over the winter. This video, more than any other, has helped me make sense of the religions and histories of this game. What an incredibly detailed (but simple and accessible) explanation! Kudos to you
I know for certain that these videos take a tremendous amount of work. But please keep doing them! These are revelations that the vast majority of players would never, ever have by themselves. There's a huge amount of information in your videos that broaden the meaning of so much stuff in the game. I agree with other comments that these are among THE BEST lore videos on Elden Ring out there. In the end, I feel like watching your videos makes us part of something bigger, like a community united over the appreciation of a work of art.
You just answered some of the questions that keeps me awaken by night.
Many thanks, your work is amazing, and so is From Software's.
This has changed the way I see Elden Ring lore forever, fantastic work!
Maybe the most virtuous thing about Miyazaki is that games aren’t his primary interest but a vehicle for him to express his diverse curiosities-cross-pollination is so powerful in design. I think your videos do a really fantastic job of demonstrating this power. This is more than just “lore,” it really is virtual archeology.
Thank you, I have been trying to figure out what omens are for like a year. It's good to finally see someone with a good answer.
This is absolutely crazy. Please don't stop. You're earning your keep right now, man. Putting in the work and producing a body of top-tier lore videos that WILL eventually blow up and get you noticed on the grand stage. I'm done messing with Vaati and his self aggrandising channel. You're the best Elden Ring lore master on youtube!
The return of the rootstock seems like a cool DLC idea, but I might be alone on that.
Babe wake up, The Tarnished Archaeologist uploaded!
I can't wait to see where and what he shows us this time!
It literally feels like my birthday every time
I am literally in a that situation right now
Cringe. Waking up your girlfriend to hear a videogame guy ramble about pseudointellectual gibberish
@@DragonZombie2000 lol eh your sad and bitter comment is actually cringe.
Why are you in the “pseudo intellectual” comment section commenting. I really hope you’re not serious.
The amount of information you can pull from the environment is astounding, and it really speaks to just how deep the lore truly goes, their attention to detail is insane. I love your videos, I feel like I'm watching old school History channels shows.
I will never stop loving how often that music at the start is used for military or combative underscoring, when it's the party scene music from the ballet of Romeo and Juliet.
So far i explored the souls genre with an alchemical and an cultural/mythological eye,
but your perspective opened me a hole new world to look at !
Thank You so much !
Whenever you release a new video, it's the highlight of my day. Every one of your videos has blown my mind with insights that seem so obvious in retrospect. I can't say the same for any other content creator. Please keep making this superb content!
Honestly, I would be devastated if you stopped. Nobody else is on the same level of analyzing From Software's work under the lens of real world historical context; an approach which you've proven consistently yields new discoveries because of the undeniable parallels you draw to real history and culture.
Thank you! Very nice to know. We love the discovery too and will keep digging!
What an incredibly strong video - nice ending! This makes the timeline of Elden Ring a lot more transparent.
Also, quite a lesson in biology was had here, thank you for putting thhis together.
I never thought about the Misbegotten possibly being invaders at the Haligtree, I just surmised them to be another group of refugees seeking belonging there.
This channel is truly amazing
Damn.
Miss Chalice, Tarnished Archeologist and now Zullie is back! It’s a good time to be a FromSoft Nerd!
Hell yeah!
talking about the crucible, i noticed that the lost grace checkpoints are basically representations of the crucible drained out of life (the base of roots) and the Erdtree growing out of it (the grace). I said this cause i noticed the weird mass of roots looks like a cup and the crucible symbol at the centre of the Crucible's knights armor.
this channel consistently blows my mind. I can't believe how much the game's environment is informing the player but we're too busy desperately trying to not die so we don't notice lmao
Loving these deep dives with real-world cross references! Seriously amazing work, keep it coming!
More to come!
Your videos make me appreciate elden ring’s devs and creators so much more. Literal god level planning must have went into making this masterpiece of a game.
So grateful for all the hard work and insight and expertise you bring to these. I think finding your channel is the second best thing Fromsoft brought me this past year.
I don't think any other YT channel has made me say "Ohhh!" as much as The Tarnished Archeologist. I've learned as much about the real world as I have about the game thanks to these videos.
Another insightful video! Thank you so much for the work you do for the community, I'm always excited when another video drops.
I love how games can just take a mundane idea like grafting plants and make a whole world out of it, thanks for the cool knowledge that will now live rent free in my head.
Miyazaki after a long time reading took a break and tended his garden, then the idea pop in his mind, Oh I will make a game about grafting!
Just amazing! My nose was almost at the screen when you explained crown sprouting. Finally these statues make sense.
Also connecting the literal Omens to this concept.. I bow my head to your work researching all of this
This is a wonderful take, a visual element that always intrigued me in the game's concept arts showed the interior of the tree where there is a stone resembling an anvil (where Marika hits with her hammer in the act of breaking the ring) "nailed" to the stump or at the base. Now it looks a lot like a scion being nailed like in the grafting pictures you brought up. In fact, the stone in question bears a strange resemblance to the meteor models found in the game, having holes and a golden color inside. Maybe it could be something along those lines.
Really interesting points here. Keep on digging!
@@tarnishedarchaeologistBy the way, there's other concept art that does a good job of highlighting the budding phenomenon in deliberately cut trees. In this case it seems to be a concept for an underground area using old pale trees to grow a multitude of buds. In the under-ground areas of the game however, I remember only one case among those old white trees that shows sprouts, which would be a stump in the area of Mohgwyn's palace (just before the grove where giant skeletons spawn). Seems to imply an old practice known in these lands .
Elden Beast arrived to Lands Between on a golden star. Meteorites carry cosmic lifeforms in the game, with onyx/alabaster lords for example being alien lifeforms that arrived on a meteor.
Perhaps Marika found the meteor fragment as a girl, and as an adult, nailed the golden meteor into the stump, sprouting the golden Erdtree we know.
Elden Beast was grafted unto the old great tree, perhaps?
It would make sense that Marika would receive her eventual Erdtree graft from the heavens.
These videos are so damn good. Most lore forums and videos drive me absolutely nuts with the amount of reaching and assumptions stacked on poor assumptions stacked on poor assumptions. Obviously there is other great work out there, but wading through the stuff that drives me nuts is a big obstacle for me. Well done, truly amazing work.
With all this knowledge that you show us, it is so amazing all the work that you put into this videos. you should be number one in LORE for Elden ring. You take the lore part to another level. as Elden Ring deserves it. I NEED more ... I am not sated....
You’ve actually done something that the other Elden ring youtubers haven’t done: using real world archaeology to analyze the narrative design of Fromsoft. I’m so enthralled by these videos, not the overly produced ones of the other RUclipsrs. Keep making these as they feel educational and most likely, and most importantly, correct to Miyazaki’s vision.
This has me even more convinced of your other videos as well! It makes perfect sense, Godfrey’s armies defeating other competing scions and crucible outgrowths. I wonder if the competing trunks have anything to do with the outer gods and their factions?
Yes, great to correlate with previous videos! Often we are aware that some of the more controversial statements in our videos have explanations and confirmations in future episodes in production. We could try to answer some of the points raised, but to give the story the attention it deserves, we would rather not cram a slogan of an explanation in a reply, instead let the next episodes tell the story in full and rekindle those discussions. The awesome thing is that you all stick around for it!
No dude because this is absolutely blowing my mind, like, holy crap the research both YOU and the devs/George did?!?! HUH
Jesus the research and work Fromsoft put in to make a world out of all this arboreal analogies is amazing, given that it flys above virtually every everyone’s head. Likely without you nobody would ever have realized how deep this rabbit hole goes. It’s so coherent I can’t see how it possibly cant be intended.
Im consistently impressed with how deep you go in every episode, and not only that but how much work the dev team themselves put into all these little details. It really is like a living breathing world. Thanks for helping my dumb ass understand the lore and gain a greater appreciation
Few questions, s'lot to try and remember: are you set on the Erdtree being grafted onto the crucible rather than arising naturally as part of it? If so, then where did the Erdtree bud come from, Marika? How would she gain access to it? Was it infused with gold originally or did it become gold from the grafting since the Elden Ring's gold is intrinsic?
What era did the beastmen arise from? If the misbegotten are human, draconic and beastly, then that means the beasts came from a tree as well, doesn't it? But the beasts came after the dragons when the dragons were still in full control - was their root system sprouting multiple kinds of life? Then why did the beasts gain intelligence?
Where do the demihumans fit in all this? They're clearly a midway point between human and beast but not explicitly chimeric - assuming natural evolution doesn't work in this world, how would they come about? One of the rivals to the Erdtree during the crucible era?
Maybe the beasts are to the dragons as humans are to demigods?
@@jackharrow7147 I'm not sure if demigods are a distinct race in Elden Ring like the Gods were in Dark Souls. They're demigods because they're the children of Marika, who became a god, but it isn't said that it's because she was inherently different - at least until she became the vessel for the Elden Ring.
...which, now that I think about it, kinda fits your hypothesis. Maybe the beasts that gained some form of runes from the earliest Elden Ring turned into dragons the same way that demigods increased in size and power. This also makes degeneration consistent, with the wyverns being comparable to Godrick, distant relations with diluted blood - which adds another layer of meaning to him calling a wyvern head "a trueborn heir" (actually was that point in a Tarnished Archaeologist video, already).
Thinking on that early Elden Ring though, is it possible that the beasts gained intelligence through a mending rune? The first order was shattered, beasts picked up the pieces, became dragons, created a mending rune of intelligence that granted intelligence to all the other beasts and Placidusax ruled as the first Elden Lord. And to push the boat out a little further, let's say that first order was actually the One Great, which is why the Frenzied Flame hates individuality and intelligence, granted by dragons reforming the Elden Ring into an order of division.
Still no clue what's up with demihumans though.
This channel is really underrated. This is the best Elden Ring lore hunting channel. Period.
As a horticulturalist myself this was a joy to listen to.
May the golden order shine through you, tarnished archaeologist.
As usual I disagree with some of the conclusions but I cannot praise enough the unparalled quality and depth of the video. Truly among the most pleasant content around and it keeps the streak of consistently amazing works. Kudos
Specifically I am unsure that the misbegotten came as invaders, since the red leonine chimeras are mostly confirmed to be Radagon's experimentation. Furthermore the Leonine Crusader carries a Radagon heirloom with him. On the other hand there is not a single misbegotten past Loretta's guardpost, so it could still be argued as an invasion. But it could also be that the praying misbegotten are simply among the downtrodden who met Miquella 's favor. Other categories of shunned ones like albinauric, living dead and rot infested clearly were in Miquella's mind in various ways. Then again, if omens amd misbegotten were consciously worshipping the roots, it would make them factually incompatible with Miquella's plan.
I would not put it past Radagon to try and destroy Miquella Haligtree to preserve his own golden order and to set up the Misbegotten Crusader to do the dirty work.
And I think you are right saying that Loretta's fight is the transition from Malenia's shattered half of the Halig-twined-tree, to Miquella's and his knights side. It might even be that Radagon knew that Miquella would become stunted and just needed the Malenia half destroyed.
@@AmryL Radagon is very hardly a destroying type. He is the father of Fundamentalism and a scholar and diplomat in approach. Granted, that's not a guarantee of friendliness but it's hardly in his character.
@@matteoflamigni550 Isn’t the connection between Radagon and the red-haired Misbegotten mostly cut content, though? Some of the old files name them as children of Radagon, which doesn’t make sense since Radagon is described as a loyal dog of the Golden Order, which despised the Omen and Misbegotten. It doesn’t make sense for Radagon to be the one to experiment on Misbegotten when someone fanatically loyal to the Golden Order like him would normally scorn them.
That said, I am still a bit lost on the presence of Misbegotten in the Haligtree. Them seeking the Haligtree for salvation would make sense since Miquella doesn’t seem like the kind of person who would selectively choose who to provide sanctuary for, if he would accept even 2nd generation Albinaurics. But on the other hand, if the Haligtree was meant to be a sanctuary where the downtrodden could “reincarnate” (hence why there are so many cocoons in Elphael), then it could make sense why the Misbegotten would rebel or invade since they seem to embrace their bestial roots.
Maybe some chose to embrace the Haligtree and it’s promises of reincarnation and acceptance, while some would balk at the idea of losing their bestial traits for a place of acceptance, and rebelled or attacked. Or maybe Miquella’s absence and the false promise that came with it broke them and they slaughtered everything in revenge. Loretta would of course keep guard to the city.
Not all factions have to have the same unified goal all throughout. There could have also been splinter groups in each faction with their own ideals and thoughts on the matter. Morgott was an Omen who ironically loved the Erdtree despite its order rejecting him and his kind, while Mohg embraced his Crucible roots.
@@agopessimist1335 Radagon is described as "dog" by Marika in japanese not to underline is fanatism but rather that he would preserve the world's logic (aka Golden Order) rather than shattering it, and to remark that he is inferior to her. "Hound" is a poor choice of traslation.
About Radagon being a fanatic, to put it simply he is anything but. All evidence points toward him having an inquisitive personality, avoiding violence, loving knowledge and philosophy and even being a loving father admited by his sons. Again: he founded Fundamentalism which in Elden Ring is born as the exact opposite of what its name indicates.
He making his own brand of chimera to better understand the Crucible would make perfect sense.
You make some good points, and glad to have you as always. The albinaurics seem to have a special role in Elphael (as they are being transformed in the cocoons), so we shouldn't assume the various downtrodden creatures are all there with similar intentions or purposes.
Holy cow this was so succinct and well spoken. This video opened up a whole new world of theory crafting for me!
Where does it say that the Erdtree was grafted? Wasn't it one of the many diverse sprouts from the crucible that was selected and tended, or proved its fitness by outcompeting?
11:28 holy shit so wait. They literally replaced an EVERGREEN tree-one which doesn’t change with the seasons-with an ANGIOSPERM-one which does change with the seasons. The writing for the fallibility of the Erdtree was on the wall from the very beginning!
"Knots dont' appear in animals"
e621 has entered the chat
I think this is the best elden ring lore video I’ve seen - it perfectly explains so many aspects of the game’s world
while thinking about the game's lore on my free time, i had also come to the conclusion that the features described in the crucible incantations (and in omens) were very reminiscient of dragons, but would have never arrived at the erdtree gratfing conclusion, amazing work, it must have required a lot of studying and research! also the fact that dragon worship does not contradict the erdtree belief (gravel stone seal) further corroborates this theory, that the current erdtree that comes from the crucibe used to "produce" dragons. what is interesting is how the elden ring and the "red" from the dragons' lightning, the "gold" from the erdtree (and by extent the greater will) and the red tinted gold of the crucible relates to all of this, but i would just be speculating at this point without any concrete evidence
just to be clear before you mix the golden order with greater will you should realize that the dragons and farum azula had lots of five fingers symbology so its far more likely the golden order is just marika's thing and the greater will has nothing to do with it, in fact if anyone grafted a tree its probably marika and the nox who care called marika's lineage in the game files
Good work in the references to pruning and grafting in real life, it really helped sell the concept. Never would have thought of omens like that but it makes sense they'd be all dragony. Thanks for the upload!
Thinking about the idea that the greattree used to produce dragons, what are your thoughts on Greyoll being the 'mother of all dragons' in the modern age? I think it fits in perfectly with this idea as it would also provide an implied reason for their evolution into a new form, as they've started reproducing sexually rather than via the greattree.
With ancient dragons, who were likely born of the tree, being bloodless, and blood being attributed as quality of the Formless Mother, I'd say Formless Mother is Outer God that governs sexual reproduction.
(Also fits the idea that Mohg is trying to kick-start sexual revolution instead of tree-based one. His worshippers even harvest Demi-human Queen blood who are only people capable of giving birth).
Numen, the Black Knifes and Radagon/Marika are all immune to bloodloss, interestingly enough.
Damn, this adds so much perspective to the layout of everything, why Mohg is deep underground and why the haligtree is so far away, why there are enormous severed trunks underground that contrast so sharply with the golden trees above, the spectral trees, the dragons and their strange misbegotten half-ilk. That was fascinating
This is incredible, thank you. The one question that I've yet to see anyone answer is how do we reconcile this idea of being born from the erdtree with the fact that Marika and her lovers had progeny?
I believe souls come from the tree, but they have sex to have babies. which can be read in the description of the turtle neck.
@@rogeriovictorcarreirademel5369 the description says, "Turtle meat is said to boost virility, but none in the Lands Between seem to have much appetite for it these days.
In Lands Between, the urge to reproduce has waned long ago." This would indeed indicate that natural reproduction has occurred, but perhaps it did in a manner distinct from the erdtree. Perhaps both forms of reproduction exist? My theory is that since both Marika/Radagon and Hoarah are from other lands, that they would still reproduce naturally. But that begs the question of Renalla. How was she born?
Man, it brings me great joy to see so many commenters stopping by just to show their appreciation for your stuff!
Every special interest group has it's pillars and it's trailblazers who help to move the niche forward, and you have more than earned your place among those ranks within this community. The value of your contributions to Elden Ring lore, and the additional depth of understanding it has brought to us as a whole just cannot be understated.
I know I already complimented your work last video and I don't mean to come off as a boot-licker or anything, but I would find it totally criminal were I to abstain from such encouragement.
Keep up the stellar work TA!
But I thought that the Haligtree was supposed to welcome everyone with open arms? Isn’t that why the Albinaurics so desperately wanted to get there? I thought the Misbegotten were there for similar reasons: to find themselves a home. In the same vein, seeing all the other species there, from the giant ants to the mages, and everyone in between, I thought they were all protecting the Haligtree…
After watching this though, I’m now thinking they were all vying for control over the Haligtree? Each faction has control over their section, but much like the stalemate between the demigods more broadly in the Lands Between, no one is able to take over the entire Haligtree?
I think that could be the case, especially with Malenia no longer defending it because of Miquella being taken
Was wondering the same thing but that makes sense. Ants are on the branches. Misbegotten are exclusively in the town, and those related to Caria/Raya (mages and Loretta) are on the platforms just outside of Elphael.
Does that mean the sorcerers are also warring against the Haligtree or did they arrive to defend it? I don't know enough about that dynamic to know. Fascinating either way.
@@TSpoon823 given that they are the giant battle mages, I’m assuming they’re on the offensive. Is there any other example in the game where they are “defending” anything? All the ones doing any sort of defending, like those guarding Lusat/Azur, for example, are always the little mages, no?
@@Hovane5 great question and point. I'm not sure. Considering Loretta's possible connection to the Albinaurics, who desired to find a new home at the Haligtree, I assumed she was there to defend the entrance to Elphael. So the mages would be there with her. But it's a great question. Either way, it certainly paints the whole scene in a different light.
i dont think the misbegotten are there to rebel against the haligtree, the haligtree was made for beings like them, why would they want to control it when it was made specifically for those shunned by grace which they are? and if they're in conflict fromsoft definitely would've highlited that just like they do in caelid with radahn's knights and the wildlife or they could at least make their attacks affect the haligtree inhabitants but they don't and us as matter of fact if you fight the two battlemages in the haligtree and the misbegotten at the same time they both attack you in tandem and their hitboxes don't affect each other, their placement is just a level design quirk and nothing. I feel this paints the misbegotten as some sort of unintelligent beings only out to rebel and seek control when they're the opposite, a race of creatures who seek their own freedom and are fighting against their oppressors like in leyndell or castle morne.
you're probably the only lore youtuber who actually gives some resolution to mysteries scattered throughout the game, and I've watched a lot of such content creators. when I watch your videos, there's a guarantee I will learn something neither I thought of myself, nor any other lore youtuber have spoken about in their videos, aside from maybe Zullie.
Now I'm left to wonder... who, or what, decided to graft the golden scion onto the crucible? The Elden Beast?
Also I don't understand the very end of the video; if the misbegotten are invaders to the haligtree, then why do we see them praying to the tree in various locations? Why hasn't Loretta turned them all into paste?
Marika did the grafting, I assume. After all, she is the Vessel of the Elden Ring.
I always assumed the misbegotten and the albinaurics both were fugitives to the Haligtree. I'll have to review this belief.
I was thinking about this too, and I remember one misbegotten that's praying to a St. Trina statue specifically. Makes me wonder if some of the misbegotten might have split off from the popular opinion, and believe that creating a new root system is the way to go, even if their brothers disagree.
Yeah, i interperated the misbegotten at the Haligtree as them wanting to join Miquella's new order to escape from their opression. I see TA's point on them being crusaders to uphold the old way in remembrance of the crucible and better times for them, but i think their hatred for the current order as their opressors and a desire to be free from the Golden order far outways tradition. Thanks TA for this dope vid, more misbegotten pls they are so cool.
Revisiting your whole ERA series before the DLC drops. This is still the best lore video on Elden Ring I've ever watched!
this also explains the wars marika and godfrey waged and why so many were against the erdtree. they had to wipe out all other religions in order for the erdtree and the golden order to flourish. it was a scramble to either establish a new dominant order or maintain the multiplicity of the crucible, but i wonder if anyone else had been trying to graft their own trees at the same time
Montagues and Capulets / Dance of the Knights. Always one of my favorite songs🥰
Buckled up and ready to go.
After countless videos about the omen i could never seem to wrap my head around what they were and why they were so hated. Until now. this video finally made it all make sense
Who's gonna tell him about animals and knots...
The observation that the Erdtree was grafted onto the previous tree…That really blew my mind. It’s never stated in the text of the game but it clicks all these pieces into place. Thank you so much for this.
fun fact:
the spanish word "sierpe" means both snake and sprout.
and dragon came from the greek word for snake.
The Duelist Helm (dropped by the gladiators in Leyndell) says that snakes were seen as traitors to the Erdtree. What could be a greater betrayal to a sacred tree than a new sprout.....
@@falloutarchon4861True, more like they painted the dragons/snakes they bretrayed as the traitors
" This new sprout is now the just one, of the one and only Golden Order "
As always you define the path forward towards understanding. Who else even noticed these insights? You are a man among men!
I'd never considered the possibility the Misbegotten might not be happy with the Haligtree. Like most other people, I thought Miquella had welcomed them there, as he does to all those who are not accepted by society.
On the note of Misbegotten, do you have any theories as to why the Misbegotten might be "Radagon's Children"? Or do you think that's a removed plot point, purely cut content?
I agree, the Misbegotten at the Haligtree aren't slicing up bodies like at Castle Morne. There's even some even praying alongside mushroom people.
this was amazing! so many things i didn’t understand about the crucible are now clear, i was not expecting anything close to this many revelations oh my goodness. amazing work!!!
Strongly disagree with the misbegotten invading the haligtree, they dont fight the rotten inhabitants, they are praying to the haligtree, they dont fight the mages in front of loretta
Best explanation for what the Omen are and how they came about.
Answers any and all questions I felt were unanswered.
So, this is the first time I really significantly disagree with the Archaeologist, and it’s across a few different angles. The most important one is the Omen. Specifically, I think you’re overlooking what a lot of lore channels overlook: that there is a literal, manifest curse in the Omen, present from Morgott onwards, and which can command wraiths and haunts their dreams with mocking, cruel figures. This is not just a draconic feature (and I basically agree with you on the origin of the Misbegotten, that part is well founded). The Misbegotten, who never show signs of the yellow curse-flame, are draconic; the Omen are something else. No Omen in the game uses the incantations of the Crucible, or displays wings or scales; nowhere do we see the Misbeggoten troubled by the Omen’s nightmares.
An important aspect of this is the reference within the name ‘Omen’ which is not, I think, recognized by this video: it is a reference to the Medieval use of the word ‘monster’ or rather, the Latin root of ‘monstrum.’ The word monster meant ‘show’ or ‘display’ - effectively, synonymous with Omen - and so the birth of a monster, a congenitally malformed animal or human, was seen as a signal that something was wrong in the world. This is the precise history of the Omen, and so we find their antecedents in medieval ideas. Specifically, a monstrum (taking from the Greco-Roman tradition of monsters such as the Minotaur) is the sign of a sin, of something done that disrupted the proper order of nature. This is where the Omen seem most relevant, and when we see the Omen ending, it is not the rootstock’s reemergence but the Age of Despair, when every soul is cursed with the nightmares and agony of the Omen.
So, where does that leave us? It leaves us with a few options, as I see it, and a few loose pieces of evidence. Crucially, the Omen cannot return to the Erdtree. That is the nature of the curse, that the tree’s roots reject them. Two, that even in the very early days, the Omen appeared, and appeared from the royal family. This is to say, the Omen are linked directly to the pinnacle of the Golden Order, and even those omen as old as one kind display the curse-fire (importantly, because otherwise we could suggest that the curse is the manifest cruelty done to the omen by the Golden Order; but since Morgott has cursed blood, I don’t think it can be that). My suggestion is that the Omen represent the effect of something fed to the roots that could not be digested, a toxin which the Golden Order could not purify - and which resides in souls. Perhaps it was a sin of the Erdtree’s defenders; perhaps it’s like Radagon’s red hair, a curse left over from the wars. But the Omen are not a monstrum of the Crucible alone; they are something else, though I am willing to believe it has to do with such a grafting as you describe.
But the curse is not the crucible.
Besides this, I am not sure I agree with your take on the Misbegotten in the Haligtree, since I’m pretty sure you can find them worshipping at statues of Miquella and Malenia. I think it is more likely that their crusade is like the exodus of the Albinaurics - That there is a place for the low and the meek at the Haligtree. But I’m much less certain of this than the Omen, and would need to go poke around the Haligtree to firm up my position.
However: all that being said, that doesn’t make this any less excellent a production, or any less thoughtful a video, than usual! I disagree with some core theses but the methodology and the seriousness of consideration are as always top-notch. The Erdtree as a grafted tree also has a particular magical element in the lesser Erdtrees, as they appear to be clonal sprouts rather than grafting - and Marika’s Golden Order changed the nature of the Elden Ring by removing Death. Perhaps the ‘grafting’ of a deciduous Erdtree changed the nature of the roots as well, via the removal of Destined Death, so that clonal sprouting in deciduous form occurred.
Also, really nice catch with the beech.
There’s also a very nice bit of environmental storytelling in the Omen and the Church of the Forsaken deep underground - how do Omen keep being born? Perhaps it’s because the Omen thrown into the sewers can in fact return to the roots, in the very place Mohg seems to have found the Formless Mother. An ancient pre-Erdtree sanctum where the nomads were buried alive, further underlining that the Golden Order’s own cruelties are rebounding on its head.
Ok slight correction: one Omen has wings, and it’s Mohg and it’s only after a direct act of his god, and the wings don’t resemble any other wings in the game. So I stand by the position that the Omen, even if they have some connection to the Crucible, are not purely an instance of Crucible expression. There’s something else there.
You make some nice points, and happy to have you here as always. Hopefully the discussion in the comments continues regarding your points.
I could not overstate just how amazing your content is! I have seen most likely over a hundred hours of Elden Ring ring lore videos, but you always manage to bring something so new and influential to the discussion and I'm blown away! Sometimes a person will have all this information and are unaware that while they can exist separately, one additional understanding can link them all! I feel like I actually understand the Erdtree and its cycle of life, the omens, the misbegotten, grafting, I need to let these revelations sink in for a bit...