How many Pokemon beat Falkner without Optional Battles? - Episode 13
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Minimum Battles is the ultimate challenge. But how many Pokemon can beat the first Gym of Gen 2 on Minimum Battles?
On my main channel @RBYPokemonChallenges , I have already completed this challenge with all 151 Pokemon on Gen 1, but Gen 2 presents a massively different challenge - sleep and Wrap were nerfed, there's no Gen 1 miss (1/256 glitch), and all the trainers have better AI. But Minimum Battles might just be possible with some effort and ingenuity.
Today's challengers:
Chansey,
Tangela,
Kangaskhan,
Horsea, Seadra,
Goldeen, Seaking,
Slugma, Magcargo,
Swinub, Piloswine,
Corsola,
Remoraid, Octillery,
Delibird,
Kingdra,
Blissey
Remoraid was originally supposed to be a gun, and Octillary a tank - the beta sprites are more explicit about this
guess they thought it was to on the nose
Makes sense. I need to look up the original sprites 😂
I wanted to make a note that you can find ghastly in Sprout Tower at night. You can get to the 2nd floor without battling any trainers, so that means for a pokemon like tangela or other struggle users that only have normal moves there is a way to safely manage their PP without risking getting a KO and additional experience.
True, there are plenty of ways to waste PP early on
The reason why accuracy moves don't seem to affect the opponents very much is due to how they decide moves. The Gen 2 AI decides moves based on expected damage, and it knows beforehand if a move is going to miss, giving it an expected power of zero, so they (usually) won't choose it. Thus, if a pokemon knows two attacking moves (Mud Slap and Tackle, for example) It will check the expected power of each before deciding on what move to use, meaning it has to miss on both attacks in order for them to actually miss a move. AFAIK, the only exception to this is the extra 25% chance to miss that AI status moves have, since that's rolled separately from the other accuracy rolls.
For sure. It's basically just another nerf to accuracy and evasions trats behind the scenes.
Re: Egg Moves: here's what I think you should do. I think you should have everything theoretically on the table, so long as it can be done legitimately - but, the score impact should differ based on how much additional help you need. So, egg moves that are merely level-up moves have the lowest score penalty, egg moves that come from TMs are a higher penalty, and egg moves that are literally only egg moves and thus require breeding chains have the highest penalty. This would mean you can test out a few move options, and then when you do an optimizing run, you can limit yourself to just what you found strictly necessary to get through.
Thinking about it, I'm not really surprised the pass rate is much higher than with Brock.
A) Falkner is at a lower level
B) There are four required battles before Falkner as opposed to two before Brock, so your Pokémon usually go in at a higher level
C) Falkner's Pokémon don't resist Normal-type attacks, and so don't get ground down in the damage race like they do against Brock's Geodude
However, I predict a lot more trouble for gym 2 and rival 2. In Yellow, you could fight Misty after 7 more trainers, but you could also have as many as 15 more on top of that if you wanted to, by going to Bill's House and down to the SS Anne. Here, I think you have 6 or 7, and that's it, before Bugsy. A lot less leveling potential. And rival 2 is going to be a serious problem for Pokémon with a weakness to the starter, with no way to level yourself up higher to compensate.
I agree with this analysis. I also think that Falkner's AI makes him a bit harder than he would be if he had a Gen 1 AI, so in that sense, he's over performing a bit. Bugsy and Rival 2 will be much harder given type matchups, Rival 2's Haunter has Hypnosis, etc
Regarding Tangela egg moves, Amnesia isn't great in gen 2 because it raises Special Defense, not Special Attack.
True, but that's what makes tradebacks to Gen 1 potentially broken (Tradeback Tangela was s-tier in Gen 1, even with disobedience). In this case we might prefer some other egg moves, I will research it more if/when the time comes
Wow 2 uploads in a month? Christmas came early in 2024!
Me during the weekend: Nah I'm not in the mood to watch some Pokemon runs.
Me at 12 o'clock midnight on a Thursday: Heck yeah! Let's go!
I feel you om that, I feel dead tired all day at work, then get home and am amped up to play Pokemon and watch RUclips until 3 am
This might be my favourite RUclips series of all time
Woah, thank you Kyle!
Great video as always, bro! Happy New Year! Also, I definitely think Ice, Electric, and Rock will probably be fine getting through with Unown (my phone mistyped it as UNO first time I typed this, LOL)... I do think Bug and Poison will be weakest for the attack, but like you said with the changing DV's who knows! Very, very interested to see how it all plays out. Keep it up, really enjoying all your series on both channels! Easily my fave creator for December (when I started following you - thanks YT algorithm, haha!)
Thanks for watching! Yeah, the UNO runs are coming in and I think the analysis is fair. The real question is whether non-STAB typings can get through, if struggle Strats have any merit, and how opps play against Unown
Thanks for video. For next challenger could say very unknown if they will win . Was trying think better joke . All think of at moment 😅. It was alot more failing than I thought. Very interesting next video :)
That's awesome! Nice pun!
I agree, I was very surprised by the results.
I'd like to see some "second chance" areas alotted to pokemon. Like people who can't beat falkner may do sprout tower. You can find a few places for bonus experience that allows you to still play the pokemon through the game, but count as "negatives" vs other mons trying to solo as well.
So some pokemon would have more negative bonus exp places than others, but possibly each of them can get farther through the game.
This also allows popular pokemon (like Heracross) to get played more so your views will get boosted
That would be a thing he would do in full runs, as he does on RBY Challenges. He takes additional battles, with appropriate penalties, when a Pokémon clearly can't get through on minimum battles.
What he's doing here is proof of concept, trying to determine which Pokémon can do it strictly on minimum battles with the best possible statistical scenario.
Exactly! This is what we will be investigating in full-game runs. This series is just about Minimum Battles, but I was alluding to this in the last episode with Her across.
Regarding egg moves, I'm interested in seeing the pokemon make it through, if multi breeding generations is what it takes to squeeze by, then so be it
For sure. I will be saving them for when we do solo runs, but it could be worth doing one run with egg moves and one without to compare
sometimes beating Falkner is a struggle
For 8 Pokemon, that is the truth
8 so far 😉@@GSCPokemonChallenges
I headcannon chansey and blissey having two different types of eggs, ones that can hatch and ones that can not. The eggs that they carry around can never hatch and are exclusively used for food and healing.
Perhaps.... Or perhaps they're just cute little cannibals 😂
Hey Teo, I love your creative strats around PP manipulation. I want more of this, not less!
I do not think that PP manipulation or Struggle should be considered “an asterisk.” I think that if you define your rules around minimum experience, then everything that fits into that rule set should be allowed. It’s fine to consider Rival 1 as an exception because a) the game considers this battle to be an exception to its own rules and b) some Pokémon will be incapable of _losing_ this fight.
In term of egg moves, I say yes to all of them, even through multiple generations of breeding (best possible moveset). No to TMs inherited from the father. Regarding the idea of separate videos, egg moves don’t seem to be enough of a distinction for a complete redo of the Pokémon. For RBY, you have a scoring system where each non-broken TM costs 1 point. How about taking 1-3 points off for each egg move as well?
I definitely think testing Struggle is fair game, especially if there are interesting strategies around PP manipulation it is interesting to test out.
I ultimately decided for this series to add Egg Moves to selected Failed Pokemon as a channel member benefit.
As for full game runs, I won't just be doing them with Egg Moves, but also on 0 DVs/0 IVs. I think some penalty for the Egg Moves could make sense as well to differentiate them from Pokemon that do well without.
Sounds like a great plan!
I think with Slugma you could try keeping 1 smog to get the poison turn 1, and then try struggle strats with the extra chip.
Yeah, the issue is that it was taking too much damage and the accuracy drops are still likely too much. Worth a test though!
SPOILER for quick recap of runs...
...
...
Blissey: Growl + Pound to slowly push through (plus Tail Whip for Pidgeotto). PASS
Chansey: Can push past Abe but Falkner's two mons do too much to her. Struggle fails due to leveling up and learning move after Falkner's Pidgey. FAIL
Tangela: High-level Struggle strats here! For Abe you just need one Sleep Powder and some good sleep luck, but for Falkner you need just enough Constricts and Sleep Powders to get through the first Pidgey so you can sleep Pidgeotto and use Struggle on it. STRUGGLE
Kangaskhan: "Local mom mauls birds by punching them." PASS
Kingdra: Super Soakers the birds with no issues. PASS
Seadra: Also has a good Super Soaker for the birds, but may need help from Smokescreen. PASS
Horsea: Needs Struggle to get past ???. Speed drop + crit can let it scrape by Abe, then Smokescreen strats for Falkner. STRUGGLE
Octillery: See Kingdra. PASS
Remoraid: Sadly, its Super Soaker isn't strong enough for how much damage it takes from Spearow. FAIL
Seaking: Secretly wants to join Falker's gym with how much its Pecking. Crit needed for Abe; Tail Whip on Pideotto possibly needed. PASS
Goldeen: Sadly not as good of a bird as Seaking. A crit can get past Abe but Falkner's duo take it down without ridiculous crit luck. FAIL
Magcargo: Needs to hit 3 Rock Throws plus one Ember on Pidgey through constant Mud Slaps to win. Fun fact: if my math is right, the probability of this is about 7% (though actual win chance is slightly higher since a lucky crit can help a ton). PASS
Slugma: With just Smog (or Struggle), can't even get past ???. FAIL
Delibird: For the record, the potential results of Present are: 20% Heal, 40% 40 Base Power, 30% 80 Base Power, 10% 120 Base Power. With that much potential power, it's no surprise Delibird can eventually deliver the W with some good luck. PASS
Piloswine: Winter is coming. And by Winter, I mean Powder Snow. PASS
Swinub: Sadly, like my Christmas, no snow. And Swinub has no horns, so it only Tackle... yeah, it's doomed. FAIL
Corsola: So, you see the 7% chance of Magcargo landing 4 attacks for a win against a mudslinging Falkner? Yeah, imagine that but now you have to chip away at the birds with a weak Tackle. Even with Harden, Corsola had no chance. FAIL
Final results:
PASS: 9
STRUGGLE: 2
FAIL: 6
Next time: Unown with every Hidden Power type!
Prediction: Electric, Ice, Rock, and Psychic blow past Falkner. Unresisted types will probably still get past with the Base 70 power move running off a respectable Base 72 in Attack and SpAtk. Resisted and immune types' only hope is Struggle, and even then, I think Unown's low defensive stats will hold it back.
Loving the series! Were these all 0 dv mons? The hidden power in the overlay is Fighting type base 31 power. Sorry if you explained in the video!
Nah, I just have the Hidden Power set as that in the overlay. I didn't program in calculating Hidden Power based on DVs.... yet...
Oh gosh Teo stop you absolute Legend 🤣
But not as legendary as Tangela, sheesh!
@@GSCPokemonChallenges oh Tangela was Constricting up a storm!!!!
My guess for the next video is that unown with hidden power ground and ghost will definitely fail. And rock, ice and electric might make it. Grass and bug might fail too. And all of the other types are unclear.
I'm really interested to see how many get through and which one gets the furthest
Is that the new eeveelution? Berry-on?
Blissey learns moves at a lower level than Chansey
Yeah, but the question is.... why?
I have no faith Tangela is it going to beat Bugsy. I can't wait to see it try though
The entire Unown Alphabet is upcoming. 8-15 DVs for each stat, 0-15 HP DV, 16 types of Hidden Power, up to 70 base power.
I just finished the Unown episode. It is incredible interesting, but I ended up with a lot of X's in this one lol
These runs are neither minimal battles nor minimal experience. They are minimum trainer battles and zero wild experience. That would clear up many things for you, including why you defeat rival 1 when you can lose.
Fair enough
I am amazed Tangela makes it through. It really shows that sleep is still OP in gen 2.
Why does Blissey learn Soft-Boiled earlier? No idea. Only thing I can think of is, it's an incentive to raise its happiness fresh from a hatched egg so you can evolve it earlier and get the move earlier. The only other thing I can think of is for the battle tower Level 10 set, so it could have access to Soft-Boiled. They changed it to the same level later in Gen 4.
For sure. It's seems like an odd difference in Gen 2 and makes Blissey so much better than Chansey in this sort of challenge
ya know man i really am enjoying this series!!!! keep it up and you will earn my sub in no time!
For sure! The Falkner section. will be ending soon, but then we'll move on to Falk er, so plenty more to come!
Delibird has great power, since Present can potentially be 120 bp, but it has consistency issues.
Exactly this 😂
I predict Kangaskhan, Seadra, Seaking, Piloswine, Remoraid, Octillery, Delibird, and Kingdra pass. Corsola is a big maybe. Present is too unpredictable for me to gauge Delibird at all.
Also gonna predict that Honest Abe stops Blissey (and by extension Chansey). This one I'm not sure how much difference abysmal base Atk/Def make this early in the game compared to a gigantic HP stat and a STAB attack, but I guess we'll see!
Forgot to account for Struggle as an option, and didn't know Magcargo started with Rock Throw.
Yeah, there's good reason for separating out struggle Pokemon. And Margcargo has a nice starting moveset. You were spot on that Chansey/Blissey is all about how their massive HP plays out given their terrible attack and Defense stats.
Have a great year Teo
Thank you, Philip! Let's have a great 2024!
I think in regards to egg moves, chain bred moves should be allowed, honestly not that tedious to obtain them considering the benefits
For sure. Like I said, I'll save those for full-game solo challenges, but it's worth testing I suppose
I am curious as to why you are drawing a line between TMs and level up moves as Egg Moves and moves that are exclusively Egg Moves. IMO, any valid combination (certain Egg Moves can't be inherited because you can't get both onto the same father, and non TM level up moves must be able to be known by both parents) should be fair game once you go outside the default learnset.
For sure. I'll think about it and look into on a case-by-case basis
Happy New Year Teo was waiting on this upload 🙏🙏
Happy New Year to you too! More coming!
Tangela & chansey surprised me most . I think reason why chansey learns softboiled at lvl 30 mostly because gen 1. IF ! recall catch chansey about this lvl .
. Apart from that idk mystery to me .
Look forward to next video:)
Only issue with that theory, as I recall, Chansey learns soft boiled via TM and not level up in gen 1.
@Canaris4 it does ? Cool I must be thinking of something else
Yeah, in Gen 1 I think Softboiled is only available via the random guy behind the pond in Celadon.
I wonder if Chansey could potentially win with Struggle strat if she lost to Rival1, making it so she didn’t get to 9 on Pidgeotto
Prooobably not, she just doesn’t have the Defense, but it at least resolves the Tail Whip issue
Yeah, the issue is the damage ranges. She takes too much damage in each turn, and having even one point lower in defense probably walls it completely.
She Chansey is always female?
Maybe slugma could’ve gotten thru the 1st rival fight with 1 smog pp, causing poison, and then struggle therefrom? Idk. But, even if that worked, I doubt it’d get past Abe or Faulkner
Yeah, it's a fair idea. Abe also might be possible that way, but the Falkner Fight looks to be a complete nightmare.....
Mud slapping birds are such a nightmare for defenseless glob puddles of lava
According to Bulbapedia, sleep lasts at most six turns in gen 2, not seven. Also, Swinub doesn’t get Horn Attack because unlike Piloswine it doesn’t yet have tusks.
Gotcha, I think it's 6 turns because opp wakes up and attacks the final turn, whereas on Gen 1 opps didn't attack when waking up, thus the discrepancy. I understand about Piloswine, but man does that difference in power make a huge difference!
Another good one!
Thanks you
If only Corsola got a STAB move at start. Even Rock Throw.
Seriously! Even a water type move like Bubble would have helped.
Unknown. Hidden power Ghost, Ground, Psychic and Electric might be impossible to finish the run. Ghost and Ground on the 1st gym you will have to use struggle to beat Falkner
Absolutely. But then Struggle could be interesting too, because at some point all of them hit walls I think
I know you typically need berries but would getting the Pink Bow on a Tuesday on Route 29 make any difference in damage for Pokemon that use normal moves.
I generally avoided the Pink Bow because given our terrible base Attack, it hardly changes the damage ranges on most opponents. The berry in general gives a better chance to survive an extra turn and therefore get another hit, which is a much bigger impact.
Also the best possible unown will be max hidden power dark just so ya know
Yeah, for Max DVs that is tr5ue. Arguably it's better with STAB HP Psychic or with a relatively good typing like Fire, but we'll see...
@GSCPokemonChallenges from what I've seen, it's usually ice HP that's used... a lot...
Other candidates like you said one is fire. Others include rock and ground however all three aren't used as much as ice.
HP Fighting DOES have niche uses tho... *cough*Tyrogue*cough*
Hey and whats up teo fam... welcome to gsc Pokémon Challenges and i am NOT RBY Pokémon Challenges in any way 😅😂😂😂
Nailed it!
Tangela was incredible run. Crazy manilup
Always a shocker, they buffed it so much in Gen 2
I still laugh at the fact they named that dude Mr. Pokemon. It's so stupid lmao
Game Freak thought the series was finished, so they just said "F*#: it, this guy's Mr. Pokemon, the Rival has no name, put all the Rocket Grunts in there, make it so half of the Gym Leaders try not to give the player a badge even after they win, hide a Gym Leader in a lighthouse, and then if someone finally gets through all of it, They have to face a trainer with all level 7p+ Pokemon
Dang, you pretty much summed it all up! I appreciate your response as always, man. @@GSCPokemonChallenges
Weird how they gave the flying gym a ground type move. At that point of the gane the normal strategy would be to get a Rock type mon but mud slap makes it almost impossibletouse. At least in heart gold they change that he does not have mud slap
Yeah, this was a common theme in the Gen, trying to subtly trick ayers by giving the Gym leader a good coverage more
present 40% 40 BP, 30% 80 BP, 10% 120 BP 20% heal 1/4 Max health
Banking on some 10% rolls in major battles 😂
Happy new year, and amazing video as always :)
Thank you, and Happy New Year to you as well!
Lets magcargooo
🔥🔥🔥🔥
Unown rock seen to be good to be Bugsy I think it will be the one who good to most far into the game.
Could be, Rock will do alright until Chuck/ Jasmine
@@GSCPokemonChallenges Also you can get the Hard Stone very early in gen 2 on tuesday I think.
Sorry on Tursday
When done with Faulkner, you should let the viewers vote one single "failed" pokemon to be allowed to continue as the people's-choice
Sounds fun!
you are not RBY!!!! RBY is so much better
He's so dreamy 😂