Dr. Horn, I'm just desperately curious by the question of whether and to what degree the proto (Wycliffe, Huss et al) and early Reformers (Farel, Zwingli, etc) were influenced by the already-present and orthodox beliefs of the Waldenses, Albigenses, etc. I mean, I'm just sure there is a connection, but has that only been preserved in history by vague references such as those you mention here in this video--"Yes, I heard something like that back when I was a boy," and the like? Another way to say it might be, even if the most well known Reformers cannot provide a direct chain of ideas to these persecuted, older sects, can not those Reformers' influencers provide such a connection? For example, the bishop that you speak of that influenced Farel--what were HIS influences? Was it just a recovery of biblical knowledge or did he not have acquaintance with already-orthodox believers? It seems to strain credulity that the chain of ideas did not find their source in the missionary and preaching efforts of these groups, although I suppose (well, I know), that it is possible in the providence of God, yet common sense would say that there must be overlap due to teaching that had been passed on over time, and not merely one group meeting with another group, both having independently come to the same conclusions (admittedly, having the same common authority in the scriptures). Can you give any (even small) anecdotal evidence that connects Waldensian teaching to the teaching/influence of the proto-Reformers or even later Reformers? I'm not looking for some mythological Trail of Blood, but just can't imagine that the current thought of complete or virtual separation can be the whole story. Thank you so much.
Thanks for your comment. I'm not sure we are equipped to give a complete answer to this question. How we look at the subject of the connection is the preservation of a remnant. We believe that God always preserved groups of true, orthodox Christians, even as most, if not all, of the Catholic church departed from the true faith. There's different types of connections between these groups.Sometime there was a direct connection of the faith passed down for generations, like in the Waldenses. Sometimes it was through influence and history, like when we see groups springing up in areas where the Waldenses had operated years before. At other times it seems that God raised up men to lead revivals somewhat spontaneously, and then they discovered and entered fellowship with other groups. An example of this is with Martin Luther and the Hussites. At first Luther thought, the Hussites were heretics, as the Catholic church taught. But then when he read Hus's writings he realized it was the same gospel that he discovered, and said, "We were all Hussites without knowing it!" I'm not aware of evidence that the Waldenses were the direct source of Reformed thought. What I've read when the Waldenses established connection with the Hussites and Reformers proper sound as if they were surprised and delighted to discover them, not as if they were the result of their missionary efforts. Researching these topics in depth can be difficult, especially using printed resources in English. Perhaps the evidence is there, in some dusty French manuscript in a European library.
There is a connection between the teachings of the Waldenses and the proto reformers and the reformers... The Bible :P. Matthew 15:4-9 ESV - For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’” Ephesians 2:1-10 ESV - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Matthew 23:8-12 ESV - But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. I believe there was a conncection between wycliffe hus and luther, i don't know if that started after his 95 theses. but at one point luther famously said "Yah Ich Ben Hussite" (or something like that meaning "yes I am a hussite") as far as i've been able to find and take this with a BIG grain of salt since I can't quote my sources just random internet dude spouting random internet nonsense 😜, the Waldenses did last until the reformation but were so forced into seclusion that they did not affect the other reformers at least not in large traceable ways untill after the reformation began.
@@DiscerningHistory Yes, you are right, the initial meetings between Farel/Calvin and groups of Waldenses was one of surprise and not influence. So this would not be an example of the type of thing I am thinking of. However, if Waldenses had records of missionaries sent out to certain French towns in such and such a year, and so and so believed/got saved, and spread the good news to person XYZ, who was the father of the man who helped disciple Wycliffe...something like that. I think you are right that many of the clues are likely in the French, Bohemian, and German languages. I reached out to a professor of Church History once and he said that the great majority of documents on the subject are still not translated. If I could live my life over again, I would have liked to contribute to the effort to translate many of these documents. Thanks for the reply.
Dr. Horn, I really love this video. This is really informative. I just want to know what is the belief of Peter Waldo about God? Did he accept the doctrine of the trinity?
Thanks for your question. It does seem that he held to the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity based off this statement of faith: "Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brothers, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe and profess openly with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God and that the divine Trinity in full is one essence and substance, eternal and omnipotent, and that the single persons of the Trinity are fully ... one God as affirmed in the [Nicene] creed..." Quoted in the Waldensian Way to God, p. 88 bit.ly/2UMRwzs
Is there any information or theories about Peter Waldo's death? Was he killed by the Papacy like other Waldensians? I'm curious about this time period before Wycliffe 13th century and late 12th
Are the Hugonots and waldensians related? I noticed that they have the same swiss type cross and dove. Mostly out of curiosity I write this Question, of course they both had extremely different views on wealth.
They are certainly connected. The Huguenot movement came hundreds of years after Peter Waldo, but there were still Waldenses around in some parts of France. Since the two movements share some common beliefs, I'm certain that some people who became Huguenots were already familiar with the ideas from Waldense influence on them or their family.
@@DiscerningHistory Also, after the plague in 1630 many Waldensian pastors died. SInce they already supported one another in their missions, Huguenot pastors were asked to come in and preach. This is how French became widely used in their worship services in the Valleys. My community in Valdese, NC were French speaking as a result.
I just started writing a book with them ese associated with the Inquisition and honestly I find this man’s way of thinking fascinating. A lot of his beliefs make so much sense. If you really are spiritual you wouldn’t intimidate people for thinking differently. You would accept them with love.
I am not a Roman Catholic, but why Your words about the Eucharist contradict to Ignatius of Antioch (107 AD): "They [those who are of a different opinion] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again..."??? Justin Martyr's "Apology" (160 AD) also states that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ
@@DiscerningHistory Lol. Exactly. Your words contradict that of the other early wriers because we do not actually believe that the sacriments are or become the body of Christ, mostly because we are the body of Christ. We also happen to deny most things that are cerimoniously Catholic I would assume
@@DiscerningHistory It matters because it debunks your heretical views. How can you be so blind as to totally ignore these statements by writers who were living so early in the history of Christianity? I will pray for you!
Maslows Theory places intelligence in the wrong place❤to accommodate the horny ,lazy & stupid with food & shelter _ promote bad relationships EVERYWHERE ❤🎬💯I STUDY THIS TOO
That's what i suspected too. In fact i have wondered if these people could be related to those Xians that fled to the mountains before the destruction of Jerusalem. Could they have just kept fleeing from mountain system to mountain system.
Nope, this is Ellen G White propaganda. She was a nut, what she said had no historical basis. Even this video is garbage respectfully, he's pushing the SDA agenda here that isn't there. Manipulation of history is all I see sadly
Thanks!
Very Good❤
Dr. Horn, I'm just desperately curious by the question of whether and to what degree the proto (Wycliffe, Huss et al) and early Reformers (Farel, Zwingli, etc) were influenced by the already-present and orthodox beliefs of the Waldenses, Albigenses, etc. I mean, I'm just sure there is a connection, but has that only been preserved in history by vague references such as those you mention here in this video--"Yes, I heard something like that back when I was a boy," and the like? Another way to say it might be, even if the most well known Reformers cannot provide a direct chain of ideas to these persecuted, older sects, can not those Reformers' influencers provide such a connection? For example, the bishop that you speak of that influenced Farel--what were HIS influences? Was it just a recovery of biblical knowledge or did he not have acquaintance with already-orthodox believers? It seems to strain credulity that the chain of ideas did not find their source in the missionary and preaching efforts of these groups, although I suppose (well, I know), that it is possible in the providence of God, yet common sense would say that there must be overlap due to teaching that had been passed on over time, and not merely one group meeting with another group, both having independently come to the same conclusions (admittedly, having the same common authority in the scriptures). Can you give any (even small) anecdotal evidence that connects Waldensian teaching to the teaching/influence of the proto-Reformers or even later Reformers? I'm not looking for some mythological Trail of Blood, but just can't imagine that the current thought of complete or virtual separation can be the whole story. Thank you so much.
Thanks for your comment. I'm not sure we are equipped to give a complete answer to this question. How we look at the subject of the connection is the preservation of a remnant. We believe that God always preserved groups of true, orthodox Christians, even as most, if not all, of the Catholic church departed from the true faith. There's different types of connections between these groups.Sometime there was a direct connection of the faith passed down for generations, like in the Waldenses. Sometimes it was through influence and history, like when we see groups springing up in areas where the Waldenses had operated years before. At other times it seems that God raised up men to lead revivals somewhat spontaneously, and then they discovered and entered fellowship with other groups. An example of this is with Martin Luther and the Hussites. At first Luther thought, the Hussites were heretics, as the Catholic church taught. But then when he read Hus's writings he realized it was the same gospel that he discovered, and said, "We were all Hussites without knowing it!"
I'm not aware of evidence that the Waldenses were the direct source of Reformed thought. What I've read when the Waldenses established connection with the Hussites and Reformers proper sound as if they were surprised and delighted to discover them, not as if they were the result of their missionary efforts. Researching these topics
in depth can be difficult, especially using printed resources in English. Perhaps the evidence is there, in some dusty French manuscript in a European library.
There is a connection between the teachings of the Waldenses and the proto reformers and the reformers... The Bible :P.
Matthew 15:4-9 ESV - For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: “‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
Ephesians 2:1-10 ESV - And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Matthew 23:8-12 ESV - But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
I believe there was a conncection between wycliffe hus and luther, i don't know if that started after his 95 theses. but at one point luther famously said "Yah Ich Ben Hussite" (or something like that meaning "yes I am a hussite")
as far as i've been able to find and take this with a BIG grain of salt since I can't quote my sources just random internet dude spouting random internet nonsense 😜, the Waldenses did last until the reformation but were so forced into seclusion that they did not affect the other reformers at least not in large traceable ways untill after the reformation began.
@@DiscerningHistory Yes, you are right, the initial meetings between Farel/Calvin and groups of Waldenses was one of surprise and not influence. So this would not be an example of the type of thing I am thinking of. However, if Waldenses had records of missionaries sent out to certain French towns in such and such a year, and so and so believed/got saved, and spread the good news to person XYZ, who was the father of the man who helped disciple Wycliffe...something like that. I think you are right that many of the clues are likely in the French, Bohemian, and German languages. I reached out to a professor of Church History once and he said that the great majority of documents on the subject are still not translated. If I could live my life over again, I would have liked to contribute to the effort to translate many of these documents. Thanks for the reply.
Send me your email, I have some interesting research on this that may further elaborate.
Peter Waldo ❤ was wise For givng His Wife ALL THE PROPERTY _ A GOOD BUSINESS MAN FOR GOD JHVH's COMMISSION _ CORRECT ❤
Yep❤
I love these short videos!
Praise Jesus Christ for this Godly ministry, thank you amd greetings from taiwan 🙏
Thank you!
Dr. Horn, I really love this video. This is really informative. I just want to know what is the belief of Peter Waldo about God? Did he accept the doctrine of the trinity?
Thanks for your question. It does seem that he held to the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity based off this statement of faith:
"Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brothers, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe and profess openly with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God and that the divine Trinity in full is one essence and substance, eternal and omnipotent, and that the single persons of the Trinity are fully ... one God as affirmed in the [Nicene] creed..." Quoted in the Waldensian Way to God, p. 88 bit.ly/2UMRwzs
Is there any information or theories about Peter Waldo's death?
Was he killed by the Papacy like other Waldensians?
I'm curious about this time period before Wycliffe 13th century and late 12th
Are the Hugonots and waldensians related? I noticed that they have the same swiss type cross and dove. Mostly out of curiosity I write this Question, of course they both had extremely different views on wealth.
They are certainly connected. The Huguenot movement came hundreds of years after Peter Waldo, but there were still Waldenses around in some parts of France. Since the two movements share some common beliefs, I'm certain that some people who became Huguenots were already familiar with the ideas from Waldense influence on them or their family.
@@DiscerningHistory Also, after the plague in 1630 many Waldensian pastors died. SInce they already supported one another in their missions, Huguenot pastors were asked to come in and preach. This is how French became widely used in their worship services in the Valleys. My community in Valdese, NC were French speaking as a result.
I just started writing a book with them ese associated with the Inquisition and honestly I find this man’s way of thinking fascinating. A lot of his beliefs make so much sense. If you really are spiritual you wouldn’t intimidate people for thinking differently. You would accept them with love.
Excellent ❤A+
❤ 21ST-CENTURY THE "GOOD NEWS" SPREADS WORLD WIDE
TALENT❤ BEAUTY OR WEALTH CANT HIDE CRIMINAL ACTIVITY _ IN ANY OUTFIT 🎬💯💔A+TIP, SIR_ SPREADS WORLD WIDE 21ST-CENTURY
Why y’all outside 👁👄👁
Because they are in the valley of Piedmont
I see some similar traits to Martin Luther.
please add indonesian sub... this is a good video for students learning abaot church historycal
I am not a Roman Catholic, but why Your words about the Eucharist contradict to Ignatius of Antioch (107 AD): "They [those who are of a different opinion] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again..."???
Justin Martyr's "Apology" (160 AD) also states that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ
Why would it matter?
@@DiscerningHistory Lol. Exactly. Your words contradict that of the other early wriers because we do not actually believe that the sacriments are or become the body of Christ, mostly because we are the body of Christ. We also happen to deny most things that are cerimoniously Catholic I would assume
@@christinesmyth7785hey, I can take old writers who lived some ~1800 years ago and make them catholic too!
@@stevenl1706*romanist catholic
@@DiscerningHistory It matters because it debunks your heretical views. How can you be so blind as to totally ignore these statements by writers who were living so early in the history of Christianity? I will pray for you!
DONT FORGET IN DANIEL'S DREAM OF THE STATUE ❤THE CLAY CANT STICK TO THE METAL & AMERICANS THAT IS A MIRICLE ❤💯🎬HAVE FAITH _ LETS MOVE IT❤
2 Corinthians 8:14-24
Maslows Theory places intelligence in the wrong place❤to accommodate the horny ,lazy & stupid with food & shelter _ promote bad relationships EVERYWHERE ❤🎬💯I STUDY THIS TOO
Pick POCKETS IN THE SYSTEM ❤MARKETS BY PRODUCTS FOR LIFESTYLE 21ST-CENTURY 💯🎬❤️EXPOSED
Waldensians didn't start with Peter waldo the waldensians were around long before peter waldo
That's what i suspected too. In fact i have wondered if these people could be related to those Xians that fled to the mountains before the destruction of Jerusalem. Could they have just kept fleeing from mountain system to mountain system.
@@gunngrease9810 or maybe they have always lived in the waldensian/occitan valleys and were never part of the catholic church
Nope, this is Ellen G White propaganda. She was a nut, what she said had no historical basis. Even this video is garbage respectfully, he's pushing the SDA agenda here that isn't there. Manipulation of history is all I see sadly
Oooooof
?