Hey everybody, thanks for the positive feedback on this one! Two clarifications: 1) I mistakenly said that Pope Francis called the Waldensians the "first evangelicals." My bad! That was actually the language of the article reporting Francis' apology, not the apology itself. It doesn't affect the main point of the video but I still wanted to clarify that. 2) 1120 A.D. is the date generally given for the Waldensian Confession (yes, before Peter Waldo himself), but some scholars have challenged that date on the basis of the wording of some of the books in the canon in article 3. I don't have enough knowledge about this to have an opinion. Again, it doesn't really change the point of the video, but I wanted to flag this for attention and encourage people to do their own research.
Have you read any of Euan Cameron's material on the Waldenses? It is his contention based on earlly material and records of the first meetings between the Waldenses and the reformed, and perhaps other evidence I don't recall, I read one of his books years ago, that the Waldensians changed some of their writings after their contact with the reformed to fit their new beliefs and that while they, for example, rejected purgatory and the necessity of allsacraments save the Lord's supper and baptism, that they did previoisly hold to, for example, transsubstantiation, and in their first contacts with protestants expressed opposition to the views of protestants on a variety of matters, including justifiation and liberty of the unregenerate will, and had to be persuaded to change their views. It is certainly possible that he overlooks or dismiss material that may not fit as neatky in his thess and may show a broader spectrum of early vews among them, but in the interests of ensuring historical accuracy, you may find it worth reviewing his material if you have not already.
FACTS = *Catholics were trying to “eliminate” any group that didn’t comply with them including the Waldensians. * CHRIST did NOT, by example or by instruction, Force or Coerce anyone to believe in or follow Him. * Catholics DISOBEYED Christ. * Albigensians, Waldensians, Lollards, Hussites and others have been SLAUGHTERED because of the religious leaders and followers of the religion called Catholicism. Satan laughing spreads his wings.
Excellent video on the Waldensians. I read an article on the "Catholic Answers" website after watching this video. There was no apology for the murdern of men, women and little children (some children were killed by bashing them on rocks). They were only refererred to as "heretics" though their believes would fit well with most protestant churches today. I have went back and forth in looking at Orthodox churches/beliefs and lately Catholic beliefs, but when you see some of the things done by the Catholic Church it's hard to see how they were led by God.
Catholic Answers did the same thing with William Tyndale, basically saying how ignorant this man was (despite being educated at both Oxford and Cambridge) and how full of errors his English translation Bible was (despite it later being used for one of the basics of the KJV). I often check with Catholic Answers, being an ex Catholic but am finding more and more 'propaganda' pieces, now that my eyes are open.
The names of the proto-protestant groups for those who want to look into them later: Bohemian Reformation/Jan Huss, Arnold of Brescia, the Tondrakians, Peter of Bruys, Henry of Lausanne, the Dulcinians, Girolamo Savanarola, and the Spiritual Franciscans.
@@Apologetyczny So what if one was crazy...they were christians living according to New Testament teachings not of pope....like early christians in Jerusalem put everything for good of all ..selling things etc .. they were not communists bocheviks soviets ...NO ..
Your last point was right on. One of the big reasons that Calvin and Luther were able to make it was that they had governments, with their armies, between them and the RCC. Other reforming groups didn't have that.
Governments + CITIZENS were actually receiving Information including The Gospel Truth. Bishops were NOT like the *original APOSTLES They were NOT studying, obeying or teaching The Word of God.
You're nicer than I am. My initial reaction was that there would have been a lot more Protestantism if the Roman church had not kept setting them on fire.
@@jotink1 Because I don't think a lot of Catholics really know how brutal the RCC was. That's how they got their "authority". Might was right. The claim today is their church was authorized by God, gave the keys to Peter, and now all popes get to run all the Christian church.
I was literally researching the Waldensians about 8 hours ago, and got frustrated about the lack of info (especially first-hand info) available, and was going to ask you to do a video on the topic ... so, frustrated I went to bed, and then wake up to find you posted this video about an hour after I gave up on my own search.
wow, how cool! So glad it came at the right time! Yes, it's a bummer how little info there is on groups like the Waldensians. Hence my appeal for people to venture into this in scholarship.
@@waldensiandescendant5866 hey Waldensian Descendant, I still can't find the 12 century Waldensian Catechism that Dr. Ortlund quotes from. I just keep getting second hand information, quotes of people quoting them, but I can't find any primary sources (translated into English). I would really appreciate it if you could share any links, or sources that you have. I am very interested in the Waldensians, but there is just so much noise, and confusion, and misinformation out there. Thank you for any and all help you can afford me. God bless.
I will be attending seminary next year. This channel and videos like this played a large factor in my choice of concentration being church history. Thanks for all of your hard work, brother. It is most appreciated! This stuff is fascinating!
Just started my second semester of seminary. Hope your studies have been going good Noah! Are you still in seminary? This channel has been a blessing for my journey too.
I actually learned about this group from a side quest in the video game "kingdom come deliverance" I was shocked at seeing characters in that medieval era speaking like regular Christians. So I wanted to look up more info, I was curious if there were pre protestant people before the reformation. And this vid helped me a lot.
Such a good game, so underrated yet it’s getting talked about a lot more recently I’ve seen a lot of videos coming out on it ect. Atleast for a game that came out in 2018. Anyone who likes gaming and medieval history you need to play it ASAP. Also the map is actually accurately based on the real places in Czech Republic. Many of the places in the game are still standing like the castles ect. The developers actually went to the sites (like how assassins creed made afew of their maps but even better)
One of the ways the Catholic church tormented the Waldensians was to forbid them from buying and selling....hmmmmm....that rings a bell. The reformers disagreed on some doctrines, but they all agreed on the identity of the anti-christ.....hmmmm.
Wow, whenever I thought about the crusades against heretical groups in the Middle Ages I always assumed that those groups under condemnation must have believed some really heretical stuff. It was so eye opening to look at the Waldensians and see something so similar to my own beliefs staring back. I can’t imagine the horror of that situation for them. Also, I just received your book “Why God Makes Sense in a World that Doesn’t” in the mail today! Starting it tonight!
This video is SUPER helpful. I feel like I keep digging and digging and I’m only scratching the surface or Protestant history. I wish I could take a full term class from you.
Thanks, Dr. O. Now I have to have that little thought needling me in the back of my mind that is saying "Start taking seminary classes online". 😂 In all seriousness, your comment on studying these issues in an academic context is something I have been thinking about, even though I am in another profession and would only be serving my local church as a layman. My interest in church history goes back more than a decade when a young Roman Catholic walked into my life with a goofy shirt saying "Ask me why I am Catholic" and I took the bait. That started a friendship that lasts to this day and he gave the opening benediction at my wedding reception. I remember watching the John Huss and John Wycliffe movies for the first time. Really gave my an interest in Church history and caused me to pick up Schaff, whom I have been reading ever since. Great video, as always, Dr. O!
Dr. Bob and Dr. Ortlund, you both have become my heroes. Church history is very interesting and I certainly feel it helps enrich my faith. Thanks, you two! I'm a Southern Baptist
I've only just discovered your channel and already love it. I appreciate your sincere attempt to unite via understanding one another, not compromising the truth and with a humble and contrite spirit. You are taking on a tough challenge but I believe your endeavor is critically important and will succeed.
Gavin, you really need to write a book on this topic. It would provide a more nuanced perspective to Church history that is needed, and I think you would be uniquely suited for the task.
@@TruthUnites DO IT!!! I don't believe there is anything like that out there. OH, I bought your "Theological Retrieval for Evangelicals" and I am enjoying it very much!"
Thank you so much 🙏🙏🙏 Wow i am so glad and grateful for your channel!! This rich historical informatiln IS so valuable and important. Greetings from Germany
Well done! I first became aware of Waldo on an episode of It Is Written. Being from NC, I know about the Waldensian settlement, here in the mountains. Famous for their bakeries, a tradition that goes back to the peddling of baked goods by Peter Waldo and his followers.
My Ancestors were Waldensians they lived in a little village near Turin in the Piedmont Valley of Northern Italy The stone house one of my ancestors built is still standing Thank you
Thank you for sharing your heart with this! Your passion and love for history really comes thru here. I only recently learned about the Waldensians but Peter Waldo himself definitely had a Christlike spirit.
This was really interesting. Just finished reading the Waldensians articles of faith (hopefully I read the right one). It is crazy how similar their beliefs are to mine. Always thought the Waldensians were heretics like Arians or smtg. Thanks Dr Ortlund, God bless!
I guess it's easy to fall into just taking the RCC's word for it, that they only ever rejected or persecuted heretics. They controlled the flow of information and supply a lot of history of the church.
“HERETIC” This one term Shut up, Shut down, Shut out most TRUTH TELLERS for centuries. still effective to many. Too Many. On the books, in writing, according to Official Catholic Records, NON-catholic BELIEVERS are “Anathematized Heretics” “Separated Brethren” is a term used to disarm & RECRUIT. I Stopped Drinking the Catholic Kool Aid.
Love what you teach and I think we need to recognise Protestant martyrs and honour there faith in remembering ther sacrifice to bring us the freedom we have today. Post tenabras lux.
The Waldenses or Vaudois certainly had a fascinating history up in the mountain valleys of Piedmont region. According to J.A Wylie in his History of Protestantism they had origins pre- dating Peter Waldo with their confession "The Nobla Leycon" . Which he suspected was the fruit of a very mature heritage of descent against the Papacy. They suffered a great deal. They were by all accounts evangelistic and took the gospel where ever they went. Thank you for posting this. Hopefully it will inspire folks to read about these brave contenders for the faith.
Albigensians from S France and N Italy were relentlessly targeted by Dominican order. Some say it was basically a slow, but effective Genocide. Dominic was made into a “Saint” because he saved Catholics & the world from “Heretics”. The neighbors of Albigensians said they were trustworthy, hardworking, good neighbors.
@@TruthUnites YES, as a Christian who did my paper on Jon Huss for my one church history class at Biola University : the Christianity outside of the church at Rome is unknown by so many before the Reformation. Would love to read this Book: could you do a video on the book Foxes book of Martyrs: the RCC response I've heard is that it's fictional.
Very informative. Although I attended seminary and took some church history courses I never heard of such Pre-Protestant Reformers such as Arnold of Brescia or the Tondrakians of Armenia. Interested in learning more. Thanks.
Thank you for this informative video, Dr. Gavin. I learned a little about the Waldensians some time ago, but it was good to hear about them from someone who knows his church history. When you said, "My next video will be on......" I was hoping you'd finally say: "A deep dive into the Eucharist " XD but I still look forward to hearing about your book!
Catholic: "heh, your church didn't even exist for 1,500 years! 😏" Whoops, looks like someone forgot that the church exists in an unseen world. There's only one Bride of Christ and it exists across all denominations, alongside the tares and the goats next to them in the pews.
@@dman7668 no, the invisible body of Christ is indeed all united. Through all space and time and even beyond. Just ignoring the scriptures that say so doesn't make them go away. Sheep and goats, wheat and tares.
@@dman7668 Normal bodies aren't invisible. Normal bodies also aren't separated by thousands of miles and thousands of years. Christ's body, however; is. Spirit is invisible. Do you believe in spirit? Do you believe in God? Or is Christianity to you a utilitarian means to a cultural end? Understanding the nature of the church is a natural result of a biblical understanding of the doctrine of salvation. The visible church is the expression of Christianity that people can see: the gathering and practices of the individuals in various church buildings on Sundays. The invisible church is the true church, which only God can see: born-again believers, past, present, and future. Because not everyone who attends church or performs religious deeds is saved, the visible church includes unbelievers. The invisible church is comprised of the redeemed and sealed by God. The visible things of this world, including church denominations, church buildings, hymnals, prayer books, and pews, will all pass away because they are temporary (1 Corinthians 7:31). The invisible things of God will never pass away because they are as eternal as heaven (Luke 12:33). In John 4:20, the Samaritan woman at the well told Jesus, “You Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” In our terms, the Samaritan woman was speaking of the visible church. Jesus answered by defining the invisible church: “Believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. . . . A time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth” (John 4:21-24). All of us should make God “visible” to the world in which we live, “for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose” (Philippians 2:13). To do that, we must be part of the invisible church, “made . . . alive with Christ . . . and seated . . . with him in the heavenly realms” (Ephesians 2:5-6).
@FalconOfStorms No falcon. I completely reject your protestant dogma that the Church is all the protestant Churches coming together to form the true Church. This isn't megazord from Mighty Morphine power rangers. The baptist Church is the head part of the Church. The Lutheran Church makes up the right arm. The Methodist makes up the left arm. The Anglican Church makes up the right leg. The non Denominational Churches make up the left leg 🦵 and together they form VulChurch. That isn't the Church. Jesus said you are Peter and upon this Rock I will build my ONE Church. There is no plurality. Since we know the Holy Catholic Church is that Church we know it's quite visible. It isn't this invisible rudderless ship on earth. End of speech.
Thanks for shedding light on this. I had heard of the Waldensians but could not recall any specifics. I appreciate the refresher and plan to do some research. I appreciate what you’re doing and the spirit in which you are doing it!
Wonder how many Reformers were eliminated without any historical record BEFORE The Reformation ? Some were listed HERE. We can all do research & share. ⚔️ Truth v Deception ⚔️ = Spiritual War
I really like learning about the Protestants before the Protestants. Do you think you could maybe make a mini series of these? I’d love to hear your thoughts on the Stephanites of Ethiopia, they actually have very likely link to Luther.
Gavin be subscriber here. I Pastor a small SBC church in Alabama. I appreciate very much these videos as I have not had the opportunity to attend seminary. I have a particular interest in the time frame of 400 AD to 1000AD. Unfortunately I cannot find a great number of resources. So thanks Again
Just finished the writings of a 14th century German monk who offhandedly mentioned the existence of other sects that were recognized by the church. Things were not always cut and dried.
Thanks for another great video Dr. Ortlund. The most interesting thing about the Waldensians is how they seem to have popped up out of nowhere. Most people like to trace them to Peter Waldo, but there are other theories about the community. Some date the Waldensian community back to Claudis, Bishop of Turin in the 9th century. Did Waldo start a community or happen upon one? Like most groups considered to be heretical, almost all the information we have about the group was gathered and kept by the people condemning them. It seems when people are persecuted, they do a bad job of stewarding the historical record. Such is evident from the first few hundred years of the church following Christ’s ascension. Who can blame them? The institutional churches kept records throughout much of history. Waldo shows up more prominently in the historical record because he appealed to Pope Alexander III in 1179, which was approximately 9 years after he gave away his wealth and began his ministry. The Waldensian confession of faith is dated to 1120. They may have been named after Waldo, but if the dating is correct, Waldo joined a group of Porto-Protestants that popped up out of nowhere and were active in establishing beliefs in opposition to the institutional church for at least fifty years prior to Waldo. Dating is tedious, and it is possible the Waldensian Confession followed Waldo, but it is also possible it preceded him, and Waldo only popularized the movement. I think modern consensus is Waldo started the group. Either way, I like looking into these things. Thanks again for engaging with this content Dr. Ortlund.
Waldensians were called vaudois before peter waldo Waldensians have been around long before peter waldo they have been around for a very long time and have gone by different names
👆 Waldensians didn’t come from nowhere. They had so much NT Scripture correct. Maybe they actually came from original Pentecost Believers ? It’s a possibility. They were taught correctly by those who knew Gospel as it was originally presented without defiling it. No matter where they came from OR when they started being Believers, Waldensians were NOT “Heretics” !! despite what Catholics said then OR say now. Deceivers often call Truth Tellers deceivers, don’t they? Half Truth = Whole Lie.
The other issue are the number of Roman Catholics who say that Anglicanism was founded by King Henry VIII when in reality a continuity can be traced. There was no new church at the English Reformation.
Yes, there’s continuity because the full Gospel Truth was known & understood & obeyed by Believers with Holy Spirit aka “The Remnant”. Pope, nephew of Catherine of Aragon, Henry VIII’s 1st wife, could have said “no” immediately to his request for annulment OR he could have said “yes” and quickly granted the annulment. Instead, Pope had Henry waiting hopefully for YEARS. All of that waiting was ⛽️ on 🔥. Just another Bishop/Pope who was NOT like an Original Apostle.
@@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc And Henry VIII was so innocent. He didn't get what he wanted so he made himself head of his own church, doing away with the many wives when he felt they were not fulfilling his needs. Any Catholic priest or bishop who called him out was killed.The English church was founded on the balls of Henry the VIII.
I didn't know about these proto-protestant groups. I only heard of Jan Huss. Thanks for shedding light on this topic. Your videos flesh out the historical richness behind the protestant tradition (something we are constantly being told can only be attributed to Catholicism).
I find church history very interesting, but I also find myself easily overwhelmed or depressed when reading what we have done to one another. It makes me wonder if 100 years or more from now, if Jesus hasn't come back yet, if they will look back at us now and wonder why we did the things we did. It seems very few are ever on the "right" side of history and honestly I just get more confused the more I try to sort out what we should be doing or believing at times.
I hear you, Cory. Oddly, I find that very feeling of being overwhelmed an encouraging sign that we may be on the road to start helping things get better. Seeing how fallible we are is a step to humility; humility is a step toward healing. Keep going and let me know if I can help.
👆”what we do to each other” Are there actually Good guys v Bad guys ? IF you understand Cluster B Personality Disorders then you understand some character traits & tactics of Devil, Demons & Deceivers. “Watch out no one deceives you. For many will come in my name claiming “I am the Christ” and will deceive many.” Who are the MANY Claiming to be Christ ? or to replace Christ ? or to have the authority of Christ ? “Vicar of Christ” 🤔 💭 🧐
A book I find helpful in understanding Protestant roots in early church history is, "In Search of Ancient Roots", by Kenneth Stewart. Granted, it's not exhaustive, but deals with a few topics of interest in regard to Reformed beliefs.
Dr. Gavin much love brother,I really appreciate your videos. This channel is going to grow big time your love for the Lord and devotion to history is awesome something I look up to. Can you please do a video on justification across church history and should it be something what really divides RC and Protestants. Dr. Cooper (Lutheran) says he considers RC brothers and sister's I'm Christ. Just wanted to know your perspective
@@TruthUnites Dr. Ortlund, I honestly appreciate your answer. Such type of charity can be hard to find and makes it difficult for Catholics, EO and Protestants, to dialogue. Keep up the good work brother.
RC Sproul did a series on RCC beliefs and the differences in Catholic view and teaching of justification. It was very fair and Catholics seemed to appreciate it too.
I love your vodeos. Thank you for staring. I did want to make a minor correction. Peter Waldo was Not the first Waldensian. The Waldensians existed many many centuries before peter waldo. I'm reading a book about the Waldensians and in the book it shows quotations from the bishops of rome in the 7th century A.D. referencing the Waldensians. Some people have said that the Waldensians or previously known as the Vodois trace their roots all the way back to the earliest Christians in the early 2nd century but i haven't seen much historical evidence yet to collaborate that claim yet. Regardless of when the movement began the Waldensians are an inspiration to me.
Isn't that interesting, that there is reference to something at least very similar to this Christian branch, from 7th century bishops. I'd have to deduce these bishops were somewhat hostile witnesses to the sect? I would guess the later date for the Waldensians would be anchored to Peter Waldo, hence their name. There were definitely earlier offshoots trying to break away from RCC stranglehold, but they usually didn't survive long.
Awesome talk, thank you.. I've been looking into groups before the reformation, personally I think we should reform from the present day reformers and distance ourselves further from catholic teachings and observances but that's just me. Thanks for a great overview of the Waldensians.
Awesome video very helpful! I know you’ve done a lot of videos on the papacy and apostolic succession. I’d find it extremely useful if you haven’t already to see your view on the specific “binding and loosing”, “keys of Heaven language” used in Matthew 16:19. I always see a ton of info on the “Peter as the Rock” argument but as a Protestant I struggle to know what to do with those statements. My biggest question is “We see them using the binding and loosing and their authority in a specific way in Acts at the counsel of Jeruselum, so when does the authority to create or more so define doctrine authoritatively stop? Or if it didn’t stop where is it today?” That’s been my struggle in the search. Thank you for all that you do.
Very interesting video and I'm learning so much about church history through you Dr. Ortlund! Do you also have videos engaging with the pentecostal movement? God bless from Sweden!
I did some research and Peter Waldo did not start the waldensians. Waldensians means valley. These Christians existed early on in Christian history way before Waldo and were persecuted for many centuries because of their theological differences. Many Protestants used to believe that the harlot woman in Revelations was the Catholic Church and the pure woman was the groups like Waldensians that had to flee to the wilderness. They were also credited for preserving the Bible known as the received text by copying many manuscripts. They were Sabbatarians and evangelized extensively at their own peril.
Currently, there are Believers who believe The Harlot in Revelation is the Roman Catholic Religion. Revelation, chapter 17~ She dresses in purple & scarlet She’s adorned in gold, gemstones & pearls She holds a golden cup in hand She fornicates with kings She’s drunk on the blood of saints & martyrs.
@@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc Yes, many reformers such as Luther believed that too. That caused a counter reformation that established the Jesuit order with the sole purpose of undermining the Protestant reformation. I would say they were very successful since only the few talk about it now.
They are the Piedmontese of 1200 AD who opted to recognize Catholic traditions solely as traditions, and reject the authority of the Pope. They're like Catholics who observe the traditions yet reject the idea of papal authority.
I knew of Wycliffe, Hus, and the Lollards, but not about this group. It's amazing how a group from the 1100s have a very similar theology to the Reformed. I did quick research and found out that the Waldenesian Church survived in Italy until 1975 when they then merged with the Methodists. The American Waldenesian Church merged with the Presbyterians.
I have heard of the predecessors to the Protestant reformation but I have to admit that I have never heard of the followers of Arnold of Armenia. Please make this a regular series.
Hey Gavin, I love your channel and your style. I am going to be reading Trent Horne's book the case for catholicism and I was wondering if you had any recommendations for protestant books so I can get a fair view of the arguments from both sides.
hey wesley! Unfortunately there is not as much on the Protestant side. I am hoping to do a book in this area down the line. For now I would simply recommend reading the older Protestant defenses, like Calvin, Turretin, or Chemnitz. Sorry I don't have more to recommend.
Great video Gavin! Thanks! My only push back would be your statement about the Patristic Church having a two-tier view of the Deuterocanon. I would say that that view did exist among some of them, but the majority simply viewed them as Scripture period, as confirmed by the Councils which addressed the issue. Feel free to share your thoughts. Many blessings! Love the channel!
I can’t agree more. My downfall on Catholic RUclips was calling out a fellow Catholic for downplaying the Crusades, Reconquista, & the inquisition. He said something like less deaths occurred under Catholicism than secularism at those periods. Not only did I find the statement ridiculous but I read [in response, on my channel] from the official lists the names of those victimized by people using the name of my church as cover. While I’ll admit I could have been more tactful, I don’t think I was out of line. I think we Catholics should own the mistakes made in our name, if not in guilt, at least by taking responsibility for our part, allowance, or encouragement of such horrible deeds. But the same for Protestants with their historical wrongs. I don’t know why so many apologists on all sides do the white lie & shinning a “expletive”. It just makes all of us, all Christians look dishonest. Especially when we try to take these same minimalizations to atheists and we end up looking like monsters or incorrectly confirming their caricature of the biblical God.
I love the way Phillip Cary talked about Luther's antisemitic writings. He said, "My favorite theologian is also the only theologian I read who wrote something truly wicked. [...] And it wasn't a product of his time. The German princes censored it!" Would it really be so bad if we all just drop the self-justification propaganda and discuss honestly?
This is a great video; the parts of the Waldensian confession that you lift up as similar to Protestantism actually sounds a LOT like the Articles of Religion of the Anglican/Methodist churches - especially the wording of the article on the canonical books of the Bible
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund. I really enjoy your videos and have found them very helpful. Unfortunately, I don’t have a lot of time to watch your videos. Would it be possible to convert these to MP3’s, and also future videos? Or, perhaps a podcast? My work allows me to listen to podcasts, MP3’s, etc. for hours. Thank you and may God bless you.
Mercy ? Mercy is for those who Repent, believe and obey Him. The Lord will Judge those who with malice & forethought murdered, especially those who murdered while using His name.
Interestingly enough, I first learned about the Waldensians from a computer game. I'm a big fan of Crusader Kings 2, developed by Paradox Interactive (they've released a third game in the series that I don't enjoy quite as much).
Even as a protestant this strikes me as kind of a straw-man argument. Both RC's and EO's acknowledge that there have been dozens of different sects throughout history, they just think they're wrong. I feel like our (Protestant) position is dancing around every single topic EXCEPT epistemology. The fact that we haven't addressed or come up with any sort of good epistemology seems to be a huge deficit to our Churches, with massive portions of mainline reformed Churches not even professing belief that Jesus is God anymore. Almost all of Protestantism (pre and post reformation) has sunk into anti-Trinitarianism, Universalism, or secularized social justice/health and wealth movements. Can we please do something about that instead of going on random side tangents?
I think a good video would be about John Wyclif and how his christian platonism in the franciscan tradition( Henry Ghent, Bradwardine, for exemple) guided his theological positions. God bless.
The irony of it all is that Roman Catholicism constantly talks about church history but fails to mention the elephant in the room of church history- that being “the one true church “ rotten fruit -6 centuries of torture and murder. Disclaimer -Former Roman Catholic. Being raised a Catholic that came from generations of Catholics and living amongst and in a small primarily Catholic town, I was never taught the bloody history perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church. 40 years ago I came to a true and saving faith in Christ leaving Roman Catholicism behind enthusiastically and with relief of that synagogue of Satan that taught me a fatal and false gospel. Religious deception is one of Satan’s most effective tools to win souls for hell, I’m convinced. Satan comes as an angel of light to deceive.
Their Apologists make sure to remind their follower how wicked Luther was, but always forget to tell them the events that surrounded the nailing of the 99 thesis on the door. They never mention that Luther had no intention to separate from the Church. Never mention his main concerns, not even that he was not responsible for the wild fire that followed his 99 theses but the printing press that had just been invented that copied the points and distributed them all over for the already fed up population.
If you want to see a very interesting film, although heavily weighed against the RC organization, "Tares among the wheat" is full of documented and verified works that speak about the Waldenses and the Albigenses. They were tired of the heirarchy, the falsehood of infallibility and other behaviors that were never authorized by our Lord or the Apostles or the very early fathers.
Can somone link were the Pope called the Waldensians "the first Evangelicals." I have looked it up online and seen his speech to them, and I hav e seen article by Christianity Today and others, but no where have I ever seen him actually say it or that it is directly a quote from him. I've seen it in quotations but it doesn't say who said it. I'd like this to be confirmed as it cast doubt on what Gavins aid in this video.
Upon reading this comment I went back and realized this was a mistake. I added a pinned comment addressing it. Thanks for pointing it out. I'm always happy to correct something whenever I can.
As a former Catholic and now lapsed Orthodox it seems to me that those church structures contain the seeds of their own demise. The stated goals are always to further the kingdom of God but in the end the perpetuation of the institution is paramount. This chokes off innovation from the Holy Spirit. Perhaps a better way is to have a model of a light and quick mobile spiritual army not excessively weighed down by cumbersome bureaucratic structures. If the Holy Spirit was largely absent from said structures would anyone know?
👆IF nobody around had indwelling of Holy Spirit, then maybe nobody knew BUT “Fruit of the (Holy) Spirit” ? clearly described in NT of Bible. Who had Bible / Scripture in hand, ACTUALLY reading, studying, learning, discussing, teaching + obeying Scripture? CHRIST called religious leaders “Hypocrites” aka “Actors”
Let me guess ~ Newman is/was Catholic ~ Original Apostles aka Elders aka Bishops are quite DIFFERENT than many Catholic Religious Leaders and Clerics BUT Waldensians seem quite SIMILAR to the *Original Believers
I came to have a great respect for the Waldensians after reading The History of Protestantism by J. Wylie. Fascinating and well written account of God's hand in history from the Apostolic age to Elizabeth I. The editions which retain the drawings for the original publication add much to it.
I truly appreciate your clear communication style. Thoughts on Jude 3 as to what is our Shared Faith delivered. Have we missed out w Greek and Latin thinkers that did not grasp the nuances of Jewish covenant life? Importing foreign thought categories? Does the Didache give us theological insights?
Good arguments have already been made to show that the Waldensians definitely did not originate with Peter Waldo. He learned his theology from them, not the other way around. These groups, likely called Waldensians because they lived in valleys, not because of Waldo, have been around since essentially the early church spread to the Alps of Italy and France. When the RCC began to exert its power, their own local bishop rejected the exclusive claims of a singular, authoritative pope and they remained orthodox believers without the trappings of Catholic superstition. Amazingly, God preserved them throughout the centuries, though their numbers were repeatedly culled by the bloodthirsty, cruel, and apostate Catholic Church. The inquisitions were not only against Muslims, but against God-fearing people like these who refused to join the Catholic harlot.
Hi Dr. Ortlund! Could you give some pointers about where to find more information on a lot of these proto-protestants? I can't find much information on any of them through Google searches. I am also not sure that I have the spelling right for a lot of the names. Thank you!
Hey Adam! Honestly the Wikipedia page for Proto-Protestantism is a good starting point for at least learning their names and some basic facts about them.
Anyone who’s into video games and medieval history or even Czech history or open world games you NEED to play kingdom come deliverance (KDC) it’s such a over looked game only Came out 2018 but they reference this group and has my favourite battle mechanic of any open world game , plus every house or castle , barn , pigeon cope ect is do accurately made. The game developers went to Czech Republic to the exact locations on the game so it’s almost like really going back in time to these towns
Forgot to add that this is relevant because in the game set in 1401 you have to do a mission where the pope sends a envoy where you help find “heretics” which is waldensians. The mission speaks on the persecution of them but not really in a bias way because you can choose to help them or not ect. Very cool though
Interestingly, I became very interested in Church History. I have watched movies/documentaries on Tyndale, Luther, St Augustine over the past month. Gavin, what book would you suggest that will give me a comprehensive understanding of Church History especially before the Reformation and even after that.
very cool! I hope my book Theological Retrieval for Evangelicals could help (though be warned, its on historical theology, not church history per se). I love recommending Mark Noll's Turning Points; it is fantastic.
A general question - what is the best way (or a good way) to get to the truth of this sort of history, as far as we can know it? Often there are many variations of accounts about these sorts of things and for those who aren't as academic or don't have those resources or experience and who have found contradictions it can feel like it's difficult or impossible to know the truth. For example, some say the Waldensians come from Peter Waldo (and the name seems similar) but others say the group preceded him and the name actually comes from 'People of the Valley' with the original word for 'valley' slowly adjusting to become 'Walldensians'.
I was a Baptist for 35 years. What persuaded me to become Catholic was the "real presence." A lot of early Christians were fed to lions for this belief. Surely you know this. Not quite getting how you sidestep that one. It is like Neo dodging the bullets.... but i do appreciate your not shrill tone, your obvious deep learning, and a very dignified discussion. God bless you! Also, i had already been calling the Waldensians "proto-Protestants!" They are probably the most legit early group of the kind.
Gavin, check out RORA by James Byron Huggins. It’s a historical fiction book on the Waldensians of the Piedmont and their leader Joshua Gianavel. It’s a page turner. I’ve read it countless times. It could be made into an amazing movie.
I think Craig Truglia and Fr John Whiteford said it best: whether it comes to the anomaly of Fr Schooping, or tracing Protestantism back to 1100AD max (after the West turn a serious turn for the worse), none of these examples is going to undo the fact that Evangelicalism is going down the drain due to how it has devolved, and more importantly, what it has devolved into. At the end of the day, Evangelicalism is going to keep dying as it has been because grace is not manifest there more than it is in a Kingdom Hall, or a Mormon church. The Holy Spirit sanctifies true believers primarily through the Holy Sacraments, which the Protestants debatably only have one of. The worst part is that they even reject this sacrament and in turn reject the gospel. When people interact with the apostolic liturgy, especially those of the Oriental Orthodox churches, they come to know what New Testament worship really is, and it gives them a sense of how the New Covenant really is a continuation of the Old. There is no question.
LOL, God gives His Holy Spirit to people who repent of their sins and ask Jesus to be their LORD and SAVIOR. It happens outside of the orthodox and RCC churches. You're opinion is supercede by God.
Thanks for commenting, Thomas. To clarify, we don't trace Protestantism back to 1100 AD. As I stated, most of my videos focus on patristic support for Protestantism. I just happened to devote this video to medieval proto-Protestant groups (some of which are earlier than 1100, as I mentioned). Also, Joshua Schooping is not an anomaly. I have talked with many people who leave Orthodoxy. It is strange, though, the way some Orthodox Christians react so aggressively to such occurrences.
@@TruthUnites hi Dr Ortlund, likewise thank you for the reply. While I acknowledge that some of these groups (and others, like the Paulicians) are before 1100AD, they tend to be very... unlike any of the modern sects to put it lightly (as you yourself seemed to allude to). Now, what you note of some Byzantines (who I do not consider to be Orthodox in the proper sense, as a miaphysite) is due to the fact that the presence of Byzantinism online is due in large part to a sort of internet subculture which circulates around a few individuals who do not necessarily represent the views of their church accurately. I actually have much sympathy for this individual who fell from the priesthood, as all of his gripes with the Byzantine churches would've been solved if he had been Orthodox (that is to say, Oriental Orthodox). I had heard that one of the things he noted of his church was that they experienced a change in their Christology... Obviously this is one of the biggest sympathies I'd take with him. But anyways, I pray that he returns to an apostolic church rather than wallowing in the mud.
@@davidjanbaz7728 I don't disagree that the Holy Spirit is given to people who repent of their sins. The question is whether this repentance is done in communion with the bishop, through the sacraments, or whether it is determined by an ethereal feeling which gives us emotional pleasure. Whether we like it or not, the Lutheran, Reformed, and Apostolic gospels are totally different in nature. It is inconsistent to hold as Christians those who pertinaciously hold to a different gospel than the true gospel.
@@thomascomerford9683 Sorry, friend as an Evangelical I hold the Gospel of Christ because it is He and the Father who sent the Holy Spirit into my life at the age 6 in response to my Repentance. Outside you're rituals of baptism done by you're priests or Bishop. The true Universal church is bigger than either the RCC or Orthodox combined. You're fighting against God : you should listen to Gamaliel in Acts 5:34-39.
Hey everybody, thanks for the positive feedback on this one! Two clarifications:
1) I mistakenly said that Pope Francis called the Waldensians the "first evangelicals." My bad! That was actually the language of the article reporting Francis' apology, not the apology itself. It doesn't affect the main point of the video but I still wanted to clarify that.
2) 1120 A.D. is the date generally given for the Waldensian Confession (yes, before Peter Waldo himself), but some scholars have challenged that date on the basis of the wording of some of the books in the canon in article 3. I don't have enough knowledge about this to have an opinion. Again, it doesn't really change the point of the video, but I wanted to flag this for attention and encourage people to do their own research.
Have you read any of Euan Cameron's material on the Waldenses? It is his contention based on earlly material and records of the first meetings between the Waldenses and the reformed, and perhaps other evidence I don't recall, I read one of his books years ago, that the Waldensians changed some of their writings after their contact with the reformed to fit their new beliefs and that while they, for example, rejected purgatory and the necessity of allsacraments save the Lord's supper and baptism, that they did previoisly hold to, for example, transsubstantiation, and in their first contacts with protestants expressed opposition to the views of protestants on a variety of matters, including justifiation and liberty of the unregenerate will, and had to be persuaded to change their views. It is certainly possible that he overlooks or dismiss material that may not fit as neatky in his thess and may show a broader spectrum of early vews among them, but in the interests of ensuring historical accuracy, you may find it worth reviewing his material if you have not already.
FACTS = *Catholics were trying to
“eliminate” any group that didn’t comply with them including the
Waldensians.
* CHRIST did NOT, by example or
by instruction, Force or Coerce
anyone to believe in or follow Him.
* Catholics DISOBEYED Christ.
* Albigensians, Waldensians, Lollards, Hussites and others have been SLAUGHTERED because of
the religious leaders and followers of the religion called Catholicism.
Satan laughing spreads his wings.
Excellent video on the Waldensians. I read an article on the "Catholic Answers" website after watching this video. There was no apology for the murdern of men, women and little children (some children were killed by bashing them on rocks). They were only refererred to as "heretics" though their believes would fit well with most protestant churches today. I have went back and forth in looking at Orthodox churches/beliefs and lately Catholic beliefs, but when you see some of the things done by the Catholic Church it's hard to see how they were led by God.
Following
They were led by the OT god, the one Jesus referred to as "the ruler of this world" whom He had come to defeat and cast out.
Go see some of the horrific things the protestants did. Mass murders on the level of the Catholics..google is free
@@dorinamary7863 😂😂😂 you are gnostic 😂 and a 🤡 that doesn't know scripture. Jesus said like sodomorra and Gomorrah.. so he is the one who did it .
Catholic Answers did the same thing with William Tyndale, basically saying how ignorant this man was (despite being educated at both Oxford and Cambridge) and how full of errors his English translation Bible was (despite it later being used for one of the basics of the KJV). I often check with Catholic Answers, being an ex Catholic but am finding more and more 'propaganda' pieces, now that my eyes are open.
The names of the proto-protestant groups for those who want to look into them later: Bohemian Reformation/Jan Huss, Arnold of Brescia, the Tondrakians, Peter of Bruys, Henry of Lausanne, the Dulcinians, Girolamo Savanarola, and the Spiritual Franciscans.
Thx Brother for this info....i knew about Hus...Savanarola our martyred brother...and Walderians but not the others ....
@@Apologetyczny
WHAT???
😂🤣
@@Apologetyczny
U ARE CRAZY
@@Apologetyczny
So what if one was crazy...they were christians living according to New Testament teachings not of pope....like early christians in Jerusalem put everything for good of all ..selling things etc .. they were not communists bocheviks soviets ...NO ..
@@Apologetyczny
I dont believe you
I wont answer you anymore
Accept JESUS as your personal Savior ....ask forgiveness for your sins...
Good bye
Your last point was right on. One of the big reasons that Calvin and Luther were able to make it was that they had governments, with their armies, between them and the RCC. Other reforming groups didn't have that.
I was going to say, if that one German elector wasn't persuaded by Luther, he would have suffered Hus' fate.
Governments + CITIZENS were actually receiving Information including The Gospel Truth.
Bishops were NOT like the *original APOSTLES
They were NOT studying, obeying or teaching The Word of God.
You're nicer than I am. My initial reaction was that there would have been a lot more Protestantism if the Roman church had not kept setting them on fire.
There is that. Not sure why Gavin doesn't mention that at times?
I was thinking the exact same thing. Why do Catholics think that speaking against thd Pope meant a slap on the wrist.
@@jotink1 Because I don't think a lot of Catholics really know how brutal the RCC was. That's how they got their "authority". Might was right. The claim today is their church was authorized by God, gave the keys to Peter, and now all popes get to run all the Christian church.
He pointed out Catholic persecution
at least twice in this video 🤷♂️
What’s a pope?
Catholic here - this is such a fascinating video. Thanks Dr. Ortlund
so glad you enjoyed it!
Repent of the deviant teachings of the Catholic church then. Stop supporting a church that has greatly deviated from the teachings of the appostoles
@@EnHacore1 Funny how the waldensians practice celibacy but your church doesn't and yet you accept them?
@@EnHacore1 *lights a match*
I was literally researching the Waldensians about 8 hours ago, and got frustrated about the lack of info (especially first-hand info) available, and was going to ask you to do a video on the topic ... so, frustrated I went to bed, and then wake up to find you posted this video about an hour after I gave up on my own search.
wow, how cool! So glad it came at the right time! Yes, it's a bummer how little info there is on groups like the Waldensians. Hence my appeal for people to venture into this in scholarship.
I been researching waldensians for over 7 years it takes time
@@waldensiandescendant5866 hey Waldensian Descendant, I still can't find the 12 century Waldensian Catechism that Dr. Ortlund quotes from. I just keep getting second hand information, quotes of people quoting them, but I can't find any primary sources (translated into English). I would really appreciate it if you could share any links, or sources that you have. I am very interested in the Waldensians, but there is just so much noise, and confusion, and misinformation out there.
Thank you for any and all help you can afford me.
God bless.
@@TruthUnites Do you think we can find some good reading online on this? Also about Lollards and Mennonites?
I will be attending seminary next year. This channel and videos like this played a large factor in my choice of concentration being church history. Thanks for all of your hard work, brother. It is most appreciated! This stuff is fascinating!
That is so great! May the Lord bless you in your studies!
right behind you! can't wait to start that road myself.
Keep sharing your research and studies and your insights on these things.
All the best and God bless brother, this and other resources very nearly have me joining Biblical academia.
Just started my second semester of seminary. Hope your studies have been going good Noah! Are you still in seminary? This channel has been a blessing for my journey too.
You are quickly becoming one of my top favorite content creators. Pastoral and Theological.
WHY IS NO ONE ELSE ACTUALLY SHARING AND TEACHING THIS INFO?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Thank you!
The devil has his grip....
Censorship is an ancient Tactic
used by Deceivers to keep TRUTH Hidden.
Thank you for your caring sensitive treatment of the subject. I am Waldensian. Thank you!
Did Waldensians historically worship on the seventh day?
I actually learned about this group from a side quest in the video game "kingdom come deliverance" I was shocked at seeing characters in that medieval era speaking like regular Christians. So I wanted to look up more info, I was curious if there were pre protestant people before the reformation. And this vid helped me a lot.
May I ask what game it was?
@@chessplayer6632Kingdom Come Deliverance. It's set in historical bohemia in the time of Jan Hus, he actually makes an appearance.
That's one of my favorites games!
Such a good game, so underrated yet it’s getting talked about a lot more recently I’ve seen a lot of videos coming out on it ect. Atleast for a game that came out in 2018. Anyone who likes gaming and medieval history you need to play it ASAP. Also the map is actually accurately based on the real places in Czech Republic. Many of the places in the game are still standing like the castles ect. The developers actually went to the sites (like how assassins creed made afew of their maps but even better)
One of the ways the Catholic church tormented the Waldensians was to forbid them from buying and selling....hmmmmm....that rings a bell. The reformers disagreed on some doctrines, but they all agreed on the identity of the anti-christ.....hmmmm.
That gave me chills.
Basically Mark of the beast
Diversity is our strength
YES, it Rings a Bell ~
🔔 Forbidden to buy & sell,
🔔Forbidden to speak against,
🔔 Forbidden to read or interpret.
I need link of article on how Catholic tormented/persecuted the Waldensians.
Wow, whenever I thought about the crusades against heretical groups in the Middle Ages I always assumed that those groups under condemnation must have believed some really heretical stuff. It was so eye opening to look at the Waldensians and see something so similar to my own beliefs staring back. I can’t imagine the horror of that situation for them.
Also, I just received your book “Why God Makes Sense in a World that Doesn’t” in the mail today! Starting it tonight!
very cool, thanks Ryan! Hope you enjoy it!
What did you pay for it?
This video is SUPER helpful. I feel like I keep digging and digging and I’m only scratching the surface or Protestant history. I wish I could take a full term class from you.
Thanks, Dr. O. Now I have to have that little thought needling me in the back of my mind that is saying "Start taking seminary classes online". 😂
In all seriousness, your comment on studying these issues in an academic context is something I have been thinking about, even though I am in another profession and would only be serving my local church as a layman. My interest in church history goes back more than a decade when a young Roman Catholic walked into my life with a goofy shirt saying "Ask me why I am Catholic" and I took the bait. That started a friendship that lasts to this day and he gave the opening benediction at my wedding reception. I remember watching the John Huss and John Wycliffe movies for the first time. Really gave my an interest in Church history and caused me to pick up Schaff, whom I have been reading ever since. Great video, as always, Dr. O!
Very cool! More study of these groups would be fantastic; let me know what you discover.
Is he still RC?
Dr. Bob and Dr. Ortlund, you both have become my heroes. Church history is very interesting and I certainly feel it helps enrich my faith. Thanks, you two!
I'm a Southern Baptist
I've only just discovered your channel and already love it. I appreciate your sincere attempt to unite via understanding one another, not compromising the truth and with a humble and contrite spirit. You are taking on a tough challenge but I believe your endeavor is critically important and will succeed.
Thanks a lot Thomas. Good to be connected. God bless you.
Gavin, you really need to write a book on this topic. It would provide a more nuanced perspective to Church history that is needed, and I think you would be uniquely suited for the task.
Thanks Mike. I am thinking about that as a possible future venture.
@@TruthUnites Very glad to hear it!
@@TruthUnites DO IT!!! I don't believe there is anything like that out there. OH, I bought your "Theological Retrieval for Evangelicals" and I am enjoying it very much!"
Thank you so much 🙏🙏🙏 Wow i am so glad and grateful for your channel!! This rich historical informatiln IS so valuable and important. Greetings from Germany
Well done! I first became aware of Waldo on an episode of It Is Written. Being from NC, I know about the Waldensian settlement, here in the mountains. Famous for their bakeries, a tradition that goes back to the peddling of baked goods by Peter Waldo and his followers.
My Ancestors were Waldensians they lived in a little village near Turin in the Piedmont Valley of Northern Italy The stone house one of my ancestors built is still standing Thank you
Thank you for sharing your heart with this! Your passion and love for history really comes thru here. I only recently learned about the Waldensians but Peter Waldo himself definitely had a Christlike spirit.
This was really interesting. Just finished reading the Waldensians articles of faith (hopefully I read the right one). It is crazy how similar their beliefs are to mine. Always thought the Waldensians were heretics like Arians or smtg. Thanks Dr Ortlund, God bless!
Smtg ?
@@albusai usually short for the word "something".
Read about them in a book called GREAT CONTROVERSY
I guess it's easy to fall into just taking the RCC's word for it, that they only ever rejected or persecuted heretics. They controlled the flow of information and supply a lot of history of the church.
“HERETIC” This one term
Shut up, Shut down, Shut out
most TRUTH TELLERS
for centuries.
still effective to many. Too Many.
On the books, in writing, according to Official Catholic Records,
NON-catholic BELIEVERS are
“Anathematized Heretics”
“Separated Brethren” is a term used to disarm & RECRUIT.
I Stopped Drinking the Catholic
Kool Aid.
Wow! This is very intriguing and informative. Thanks for exposing us to church history.👍🏾
Love what you teach and I think we need to recognise Protestant martyrs and honour there faith in remembering ther sacrifice to bring us the freedom we have today. Post tenabras lux.
Would love to see you make a video on justification in church history!
Would love to see an entire work of historical theology done with this level of depth
@@cole141000 me to.
Your videos are great! I use them as supplement research for my seminary classes! God Bless!
The Waldenses or Vaudois certainly had a fascinating history up in the mountain valleys of Piedmont region. According to J.A Wylie in his History of Protestantism they had origins pre- dating Peter Waldo with their confession "The Nobla Leycon" . Which he suspected was the fruit of a very mature heritage of descent against the Papacy. They suffered a great deal. They were by all accounts evangelistic and took the gospel where ever they went. Thank you for posting this. Hopefully it will inspire folks to read about these brave contenders for the faith.
Albigensians from S France and
N Italy were relentlessly targeted by Dominican order.
Some say it was basically a slow, but effective Genocide.
Dominic was made into a
“Saint” because he saved Catholics & the world from
“Heretics”.
The neighbors of Albigensians said they were trustworthy, hardworking, good neighbors.
Gavin would love a future book on all this stuff
It’s in the works, lord willing. Hoping to start writing in 2022.
@@TruthUnites looking forward to it
@@TruthUnites YES, as a Christian who did my paper on Jon Huss for my one church history class at Biola University : the Christianity outside of the church at Rome is unknown by so many before the Reformation.
Would love to read this Book: could you do a video on the book Foxes book of Martyrs: the RCC response I've heard is that it's fictional.
Maybe you will Share it ?
Ask to Read it or have it read
and/or Printed online.
Very informative. Although I attended seminary and took some church history courses I never heard of such Pre-Protestant Reformers such as Arnold of Brescia or the Tondrakians of Armenia. Interested in learning more. Thanks.
Try to read D'Aulbigne in his book HISTORY OF THE REFORMATION and Another book GREAT CONTROVERSY
@@themessagenow169 Thanks. May check out these books.
Thank you for this informative video, Dr. Gavin.
I learned a little about the Waldensians some time ago, but it was good to hear about them from someone who knows his church history.
When you said, "My next video will be on......"
I was hoping you'd finally say: "A deep dive into the Eucharist " XD but I still look forward to hearing about your book!
Catholic: "heh, your church didn't even exist for 1,500 years! 😏"
Whoops, looks like someone forgot that the church exists in an unseen world. There's only one Bride of Christ and it exists across all denominations, alongside the tares and the goats next to them in the pews.
We don't have an invisible Church. The Church is not merely a collection of like minded believers each doing their own things.
@@dman7668 no, the invisible body of Christ is indeed all united. Through all space and time and even beyond. Just ignoring the scriptures that say so doesn't make them go away. Sheep and goats, wheat and tares.
@@FalconOfStorms
The Church is called the body of Christ.
A body is not invisible.
@@dman7668 Normal bodies aren't invisible. Normal bodies also aren't separated by thousands of miles and thousands of years. Christ's body, however; is. Spirit is invisible.
Do you believe in spirit? Do you believe in God? Or is Christianity to you a utilitarian means to a cultural end?
Understanding the nature of the church is a natural result of a biblical understanding of the doctrine of salvation. The visible church is the expression of Christianity that people can see: the gathering and practices of the individuals in various church buildings on Sundays. The invisible church is the true church, which only God can see: born-again believers, past, present, and future. Because not everyone who attends church or performs religious deeds is saved, the visible church includes unbelievers. The invisible church is comprised of the redeemed and sealed by God.
The visible things of this world, including church denominations, church buildings, hymnals, prayer books, and pews, will all pass away because they are temporary (1 Corinthians 7:31). The invisible things of God will never pass away because they are as eternal as heaven (Luke 12:33).
In John 4:20, the Samaritan woman at the well told Jesus, “You Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” In our terms, the Samaritan woman was speaking of the visible church. Jesus answered by defining the invisible church: “Believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. . . . A time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth” (John 4:21-24).
All of us should make God “visible” to the world in which we live, “for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose” (Philippians 2:13). To do that, we must be part of the invisible church, “made . . . alive with Christ . . . and seated . . . with him in the heavenly realms” (Ephesians 2:5-6).
@FalconOfStorms
No falcon. I completely reject your protestant dogma that the Church is all the protestant Churches coming together to form the true Church. This isn't megazord from Mighty Morphine power rangers.
The baptist Church is the head part of the Church.
The Lutheran Church makes up the right arm.
The Methodist makes up the left arm.
The Anglican Church makes up the right leg.
The non Denominational Churches make up the left leg 🦵 and together they form VulChurch. That isn't the Church.
Jesus said you are Peter and upon this Rock I will build my ONE Church. There is no plurality. Since we know the Holy Catholic Church is that Church we know it's quite visible. It isn't this invisible rudderless ship on earth. End of speech.
Thanks for shedding light on this. I had heard of the Waldensians but could not recall any specifics. I appreciate the refresher and plan to do some research. I appreciate what you’re doing and the spirit in which you are doing it!
I really appreciate this. Nice work Gavin!
So glad there was a reformation….things were way off track and a correction was needed desperately!
Wonder how many Reformers were eliminated
without any historical record BEFORE The Reformation ?
Some were listed HERE.
We can all do research & share.
⚔️ Truth v Deception ⚔️
= Spiritual War
Excellent presentation by Pastor Gavin, as usual! Thank you.
They were “savagely persecuted” that hit home. The Church of Rome has no part or share in the salvation of Christ.
Would love a book (church history) on the topic of these groups
On YT you can watch Paulicians &the Preserved Texts by Bryan Ross
I really like learning about the Protestants before the Protestants. Do you think you could maybe make a mini series of these? I’d love to hear your thoughts on the Stephanites of Ethiopia, they actually have very likely link to Luther.
Oh that would be awesome!
@@bairfreedom Right!
Gavin be subscriber here. I Pastor a small SBC church in Alabama. I appreciate very much these videos as I have not had the opportunity to attend seminary. I have a particular interest in the time frame of 400 AD to 1000AD. Unfortunately I cannot find a great number of resources. So thanks Again
great to hear the videos have been useful! God bless you!
Just finished the writings of a 14th century German monk who offhandedly mentioned the existence of other sects that were recognized by the church. Things were not always cut and dried.
What's the name
Is it the Monk of Heilsbronn?
@@MagvireMafia Johann Tauler
@@brich2542 tell me the name of the document / writing that this is in. Very interesting stuff. Wanna get it for myself
@@MagvireMafia Spiritual Conferences
Thanks for another great video Dr. Ortlund. The most interesting thing about the Waldensians is how they seem to have popped up out of nowhere. Most people like to trace them to Peter Waldo, but there are other theories about the community. Some date the Waldensian community back to Claudis, Bishop of Turin in the 9th century. Did Waldo start a community or happen upon one?
Like most groups considered to be heretical, almost all the information we have about the group was gathered and kept by the people condemning them. It seems when people are persecuted, they do a bad job of stewarding the historical record. Such is evident from the first few hundred years of the church following Christ’s ascension. Who can blame them?
The institutional churches kept records throughout much of history. Waldo shows up more prominently in the historical record because he appealed to Pope Alexander III in 1179, which was approximately 9 years after he gave away his wealth and began his ministry. The Waldensian confession of faith is dated to 1120. They may have been named after Waldo, but if the dating is correct, Waldo joined a group of Porto-Protestants that popped up out of nowhere and were active in establishing beliefs in opposition to the institutional church for at least fifty years prior to Waldo.
Dating is tedious, and it is possible the Waldensian Confession followed Waldo, but it is also possible it preceded him, and Waldo only popularized the movement. I think modern consensus is Waldo started the group.
Either way, I like looking into these things. Thanks again for engaging with this content Dr. Ortlund.
Waldensians were called vaudois before peter waldo Waldensians have been around long before peter waldo they have been around for a very long time and have gone by different names
👆 Waldensians didn’t come from nowhere. They had so much NT Scripture correct.
Maybe they actually came from original Pentecost Believers ?
It’s a possibility.
They were taught correctly by those who knew Gospel as it was originally presented without defiling it.
No matter where they came from OR when they started being Believers, Waldensians were
NOT “Heretics” !!
despite what Catholics said then OR say now.
Deceivers often call Truth Tellers deceivers, don’t they?
Half Truth = Whole Lie.
You find the nooks and crannies of protestant history the way butter and jam find the nooks and crannies of a crumpet. Tasty!
lol indeed
Well done. Thanks.
The other issue are the number of Roman Catholics who say that Anglicanism was founded by King Henry VIII when in reality a continuity can be traced. There was no new church at the English Reformation.
Yes, there’s continuity because
the full Gospel Truth was known
& understood & obeyed
by Believers with Holy Spirit aka
“The Remnant”.
Pope, nephew of Catherine of Aragon, Henry VIII’s 1st wife,
could have said “no” immediately to his request for annulment
OR he could have said “yes” and quickly granted the annulment. Instead, Pope had Henry waiting hopefully for YEARS.
All of that waiting was ⛽️ on 🔥.
Just another Bishop/Pope who was NOT like an Original Apostle.
@@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc And Henry VIII was so innocent. He didn't get what he wanted so he made himself head of his own church, doing away with the many wives when he felt they were not fulfilling his needs. Any Catholic priest or bishop who called him out was killed.The English church was founded on the balls of Henry the VIII.
Love the video!
I didn't know about these proto-protestant groups. I only heard of Jan Huss. Thanks for shedding light on this topic. Your videos flesh out the historical richness behind the protestant tradition (something we are constantly being told can only be attributed to Catholicism).
Glad you learned about some new groups! John Wycliffe is another huge one to study.
I find church history very interesting, but I also find myself easily overwhelmed or depressed when reading what we have done to one another. It makes me wonder if 100 years or more from now, if Jesus hasn't come back yet, if they will look back at us now and wonder why we did the things we did. It seems very few are ever on the "right" side of history and honestly I just get more confused the more I try to sort out what we should be doing or believing at times.
I hear you, Cory. Oddly, I find that very feeling of being overwhelmed an encouraging sign that we may be on the road to start helping things get better. Seeing how fallible we are is a step to humility; humility is a step toward healing. Keep going and let me know if I can help.
Try reading the book "Great CONTROVERSY"
Yes, I found that by reading the Great Controversy it gave me an amazing perspective on church history and a great deal more.
👆”what we do to each other”
Are there actually
Good guys v Bad guys ?
IF you understand
Cluster B Personality Disorders then you understand
some character traits & tactics of
Devil, Demons & Deceivers.
“Watch out no one deceives you.
For many will come in my name
claiming “I am the Christ”
and will deceive many.”
Who are the MANY Claiming to
be Christ ? or to replace Christ ?
or to have the authority of Christ ?
“Vicar of Christ” 🤔 💭 🧐
Fantastic video on a great topic. Thanks.
A book I find helpful in understanding Protestant roots in early church history is, "In Search of Ancient Roots", by Kenneth Stewart. Granted, it's not exhaustive, but deals with a few topics of interest in regard to Reformed beliefs.
good book! I believe I reviewed it over at Gospel Coalition a few years back.
Maybe it's a good book, but I will never read it because the author is greedily asking $22 for a Kindle version. Paperback is $24.
Yup. I'm curious how many of these there are in the Eastern tradition as well.
the Tondrakians (Caucasus) is one that he mentioned
Dr. Gavin much love brother,I really appreciate your videos. This channel is going to grow big time your love for the Lord and devotion to history is awesome something I look up to. Can you please do a video on justification across church history and should it be something what really divides RC and Protestants. Dr. Cooper (Lutheran) says he considers RC brothers and sister's I'm Christ. Just wanted to know your perspective
Sure thing, Jacob. This is in the queue, but unfortunately will be many months before it happens, likely. Maybe early 2022ish.
@@TruthUnites Dr. Ortlund, would you argue that Catholics are not Christians and that they're going to hell?
@@computationaltheist7267 no.
@@TruthUnites Dr. Ortlund, I honestly appreciate your answer. Such type of charity can be hard to find and makes it difficult for Catholics, EO and Protestants, to dialogue. Keep up the good work brother.
RC Sproul did a series on RCC beliefs and the differences in Catholic view and teaching of justification. It was very fair and Catholics seemed to appreciate it too.
I love your vodeos. Thank you for staring.
I did want to make a minor correction.
Peter Waldo was Not the first Waldensian. The Waldensians existed many many centuries before peter waldo.
I'm reading a book about the Waldensians and in the book it shows quotations from the bishops of rome in the 7th century A.D. referencing the Waldensians.
Some people have said that the Waldensians or previously known as the Vodois trace their roots all the way back to the earliest Christians in the early 2nd century but i haven't seen much historical evidence yet to collaborate that claim yet.
Regardless of when the movement began the Waldensians are an inspiration to me.
Isn't that interesting, that there is reference to something at least very similar to this Christian branch, from 7th century bishops. I'd have to deduce these bishops were somewhat hostile witnesses to the sect? I would guess the later date for the Waldensians would be anchored to Peter Waldo, hence their name. There were definitely earlier offshoots trying to break away from RCC stranglehold, but they usually didn't survive long.
Awesome talk, thank you.. I've been looking into groups before the reformation, personally I think we should reform from the present day reformers and distance ourselves further from catholic teachings and observances but that's just me. Thanks for a great overview of the Waldensians.
Me too !
Awesome video very helpful! I know you’ve done a lot of videos on the papacy and apostolic succession. I’d find it extremely useful if you haven’t already to see your view on the specific “binding and loosing”, “keys of Heaven language” used in Matthew 16:19. I always see a ton of info on the “Peter as the Rock” argument but as a Protestant I struggle to know what to do with those statements. My biggest question is “We see them using the binding and loosing and their authority in a specific way in Acts at the counsel of Jeruselum, so when does the authority to create or more so define doctrine authoritatively stop? Or if it didn’t stop where is it today?” That’s been my struggle in the search. Thank you for all that you do.
Glad it was helpful! Will consider that, thanks. I got into Matthew 16 in my debate with Suan Sonna at Capturing Christianity.
Dr Gavin is both accurate & trustworthy. Other Protestants (online & elsewhere) can answer questions and/or verify & confirm what Dr Gavin teaches.
Very interesting video and I'm learning so much about church history through you Dr. Ortlund! Do you also have videos engaging with the pentecostal movement? God bless from Sweden!
I did some research and Peter Waldo did not start the waldensians. Waldensians means valley. These Christians existed early on in Christian history way before Waldo and were persecuted for many centuries because of their theological differences. Many Protestants used to believe that the harlot woman in Revelations was the Catholic Church and the pure woman was the groups like Waldensians that had to flee to the wilderness. They were also credited for preserving the Bible known as the received text by copying many manuscripts. They were Sabbatarians and evangelized extensively at their own peril.
Currently, there are Believers who believe The Harlot in Revelation
is the Roman Catholic Religion.
Revelation, chapter 17~
She dresses in purple & scarlet
She’s adorned in gold, gemstones & pearls
She holds a golden cup in hand
She fornicates with kings
She’s drunk on the blood of saints
& martyrs.
@@ShirleyAnnPetrillo-oj7sc
Yes, many reformers such as Luther believed that too. That caused a counter reformation that established the Jesuit order with the sole purpose of undermining the Protestant reformation. I would say they were very successful since only the few talk about it now.
They are the Piedmontese of 1200 AD who opted to recognize Catholic traditions solely as traditions, and reject the authority of the Pope. They're like Catholics who observe the traditions yet reject the idea of papal authority.
I knew of Wycliffe, Hus, and the Lollards, but not about this group. It's amazing how a group from the 1100s have a very similar theology to the Reformed. I did quick research and found out that the Waldenesian Church survived in Italy until 1975 when they then merged with the Methodists. The American Waldenesian Church merged with the Presbyterians.
Truth remains UN-changed.
Beware of those that Hide it,
Forbid it, Replace it.
I have heard of the predecessors to the Protestant reformation but I have to admit that I have never heard of the followers of Arnold of Armenia. Please make this a regular series.
the facts do not wait for our opinions
Hey Gavin, I love your channel and your style. I am going to be reading Trent Horne's book the case for catholicism and I was wondering if you had any recommendations for protestant books so I can get a fair view of the arguments from both sides.
hey wesley! Unfortunately there is not as much on the Protestant side. I am hoping to do a book in this area down the line. For now I would simply recommend reading the older Protestant defenses, like Calvin, Turretin, or Chemnitz. Sorry I don't have more to recommend.
@@TruthUnites thanks anyway! Keep up the good work.
Roman But Not Catholic by Jerry Walls is one of the better ones that I've read. Unfortunately there isn't much out there.
@@andrewculbreth7302 thank you
@@andrewculbreth7302 great point, that is a helpful book.
Great video Gavin! Thanks! My only push back would be your statement about the Patristic Church having a two-tier view of the Deuterocanon. I would say that that view did exist among some of them, but the majority simply viewed them as Scripture period, as confirmed by the Councils which addressed the issue. Feel free to share your thoughts. Many blessings! Love the channel!
Councils ~ hmm ~ Who knows when council members got deceived or corrupted ?
Council of Trent definitely was riddled with errors.
I can’t agree more. My downfall on Catholic RUclips was calling out a fellow Catholic for downplaying the Crusades, Reconquista, & the inquisition. He said something like less deaths occurred under Catholicism than secularism at those periods. Not only did I find the statement ridiculous but I read [in response, on my channel] from the official lists the names of those victimized by people using the name of my church as cover. While I’ll admit I could have been more tactful, I don’t think I was out of line. I think we Catholics should own the mistakes made in our name, if not in guilt, at least by taking responsibility for our part, allowance, or encouragement of such horrible deeds. But the same for Protestants with their historical wrongs. I don’t know why so many apologists on all sides do the white lie & shinning a “expletive”. It just makes all of us, all Christians look dishonest. Especially when we try to take these same minimalizations to atheists and we end up looking like monsters or incorrectly confirming their caricature of the biblical God.
I love the way Phillip Cary talked about Luther's antisemitic writings. He said, "My favorite theologian is also the only theologian I read who wrote something truly wicked. [...] And it wasn't a product of his time. The German princes censored it!"
Would it really be so bad if we all just drop the self-justification propaganda and discuss honestly?
Some people simply REFUSE
to even consider anything that’s different than their established beliefs.
Pretty Lies v Inconvenient Truths
This is a great video; the parts of the Waldensian confession that you lift up as similar to Protestantism actually sounds a LOT like the Articles of Religion of the Anglican/Methodist churches - especially the wording of the article on the canonical books of the Bible
Thank you, Dr. Ortlund. I really enjoy your videos and have found them very helpful. Unfortunately, I don’t have a lot of time to watch your videos. Would it be possible to convert these to MP3’s, and also future videos? Or, perhaps a podcast? My work allows me to listen to podcasts, MP3’s, etc. for hours. Thank you and may God bless you.
Thanks! I'm working on this. Hope to have an update soon.
@@TruthUnites That would be great.
thank you
Czech is a phonetic language, so Hus is pronounced as 'whose.'
Very interesting video though. Very helpful for my essay.
Jan Hus aka John Huss is an examplary Believer.
Jailed then Murdered by 🔥
Listening to the stories of persecution. Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy.
Mercy ? Mercy is for those who Repent, believe and obey Him.
The Lord will Judge those who with malice & forethought murdered, especially those who
murdered while using His name.
Interestingly enough, I first learned about the Waldensians from a computer game. I'm a big fan of Crusader Kings 2, developed by Paradox Interactive (they've released a third game in the series that I don't enjoy quite as much).
Even as a protestant this strikes me as kind of a straw-man argument. Both RC's and EO's acknowledge that there have been dozens of different sects throughout history, they just think they're wrong. I feel like our (Protestant) position is dancing around every single topic EXCEPT epistemology. The fact that we haven't addressed or come up with any sort of good epistemology seems to be a huge deficit to our Churches, with massive portions of mainline reformed Churches not even professing belief that Jesus is God anymore.
Almost all of Protestantism (pre and post reformation) has sunk into anti-Trinitarianism, Universalism, or secularized social justice/health and wealth movements. Can we please do something about that instead of going on random side tangents?
I love this video dont excuse yourself for telling the truth
I think a good video would be about John Wyclif and how his christian platonism in the franciscan tradition( Henry Ghent, Bradwardine, for exemple) guided his theological positions. God bless.
interesting idea. Would love to learn more about that.
The irony of it all is that Roman Catholicism constantly talks about church history but fails to mention the elephant in the room of church history- that being “the one true church “ rotten fruit -6 centuries of torture and murder.
Disclaimer -Former Roman Catholic.
Being raised a Catholic that came from generations of Catholics and living amongst and in a small primarily Catholic town, I was never taught the bloody history perpetrated by the Roman Catholic Church.
40 years ago I came to a true and saving faith in Christ leaving Roman Catholicism behind enthusiastically and with relief of that synagogue of Satan that taught me a fatal and false gospel.
Religious deception is one of Satan’s most effective tools to win souls for hell, I’m convinced.
Satan comes as an angel of light to deceive.
Their Apologists make sure to remind their follower how wicked Luther was, but always forget to tell them the events that surrounded the nailing of the 99 thesis on the door. They never mention that Luther had no intention to separate from the Church. Never mention his main concerns, not even that he was not responsible for the wild fire that followed his 99 theses but the printing press that had just been invented that copied the points and distributed them all over for the already fed up population.
If you want to see a very interesting film, although heavily weighed against the RC organization, "Tares among the wheat" is full of documented and verified works that speak about the Waldenses and the Albigenses. They were tired of the heirarchy, the falsehood of infallibility and other behaviors that were never authorized by our Lord or the Apostles or the very early fathers.
“Rekindling the Reformation”
is a serious available on youtube.
Can somone link were the Pope called the Waldensians "the first Evangelicals." I have looked it up online and seen his speech to them, and I hav e seen article by Christianity Today and others, but no where have I ever seen him actually say it or that it is directly a quote from him. I've seen it in quotations but it doesn't say who said it. I'd like this to be confirmed as it cast doubt on what Gavins aid in this video.
Upon reading this comment I went back and realized this was a mistake. I added a pinned comment addressing it. Thanks for pointing it out. I'm always happy to correct something whenever I can.
Look up CHARLES CHINIQUY french Canadian priest who tried to reform the RCC in 1800's very interesting
As a former Catholic and now lapsed Orthodox it seems to me that those church structures contain the seeds of their own demise. The stated goals are always to further the kingdom of God but in the end the perpetuation of the institution is paramount. This chokes off innovation from the Holy Spirit. Perhaps a better way is to have a model of a light and quick mobile spiritual army not excessively weighed down by cumbersome bureaucratic structures. If the Holy Spirit was largely absent from said structures would anyone know?
👆IF nobody around had indwelling of Holy Spirit,
then maybe nobody knew
BUT
“Fruit of the (Holy) Spirit” ?
clearly described in NT of Bible.
Who had Bible / Scripture in hand, ACTUALLY reading, studying, learning, discussing,
teaching + obeying Scripture?
CHRIST called religious leaders
“Hypocrites” aka “Actors”
“To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.”
― John Henry Newman
Turns out its a bad take.
Let me guess ~ Newman is/was
Catholic ~
Original Apostles aka Elders aka
Bishops are
quite DIFFERENT than
many Catholic Religious Leaders
and Clerics
BUT
Waldensians seem
quite SIMILAR to
the *Original Believers
Well first waldensian claim to be successors of Claude of Turin, and Peter Waldo has named because pf waldensians and not the opposite.
I came to have a great respect for the Waldensians after reading The History of Protestantism by J. Wylie. Fascinating and well written account of God's hand in history from the Apostolic age to Elizabeth I. The editions which retain the drawings for the original publication add much to it.
I truly appreciate your clear communication style. Thoughts on Jude 3 as to what is our Shared Faith delivered.
Have we missed out w Greek and Latin thinkers that did not grasp the nuances of Jewish covenant life?
Importing foreign thought categories?
Does the Didache give us theological insights?
Interesting how these groups take the name of a person
Good arguments have already been made to show that the Waldensians definitely did not originate with Peter Waldo. He learned his theology from them, not the other way around. These groups, likely called Waldensians because they lived in valleys, not because of Waldo, have been around since essentially the early church spread to the Alps of Italy and France. When the RCC began to exert its power, their own local bishop rejected the exclusive claims of a singular, authoritative pope and they remained orthodox believers without the trappings of Catholic superstition. Amazingly, God preserved them throughout the centuries, though their numbers were repeatedly culled by the bloodthirsty, cruel, and apostate Catholic Church. The inquisitions were not only against Muslims, but against God-fearing people like these who refused to join the Catholic harlot.
Hi Dr. Ortlund! Could you give some pointers about where to find more information on a lot of these proto-protestants? I can't find much information on any of them through Google searches. I am also not sure that I have the spelling right for a lot of the names. Thank you!
Hey Adam! Honestly the Wikipedia page for Proto-Protestantism is a good starting point for at least learning their names and some basic facts about them.
@@TruthUnites oh perfect! Then I'll be going to that page shortly. Thank you very much Dr. Ortlund!
The reformers persecuted Baptist.
Curious about the position of the waldensians on the trinity doctrine. Any thoughts?
The Reformation was a pruning, not a planting
Didn’t the Waldensians saints keep the Sabbath too?
Yes
Anyone who’s into video games and medieval history or even Czech history or open world games you NEED to play kingdom come deliverance (KDC) it’s such a over looked game only Came out 2018 but they reference this group and has my favourite battle mechanic of any open world game , plus every house or castle , barn , pigeon cope ect is do accurately made. The game developers went to Czech Republic to the exact locations on the game so it’s almost like really going back in time to these towns
Forgot to add that this is relevant because in the game set in 1401 you have to do a mission where the pope sends a envoy where you help find “heretics” which is waldensians. The mission speaks on the persecution of them but not really in a bias way because you can choose to help them or not ect. Very cool though
Interestingly, I became very interested in Church History. I have watched movies/documentaries on Tyndale, Luther, St Augustine over the past month. Gavin, what book would you suggest that will give me a comprehensive understanding of Church History especially before the Reformation and even after that.
very cool! I hope my book Theological Retrieval for Evangelicals could help (though be warned, its on historical theology, not church history per se). I love recommending Mark Noll's Turning Points; it is fantastic.
Read the Church Fathers by themselves, without commentaries from other people. Start with the Apostolic Fathers.
Justo Gonzalez and Mark Noll are probably the most important church historians alive today.
We predated the Catholics
Any book recommendations worth reading on the waldensians?
J. A wiley - the waldensians
A general question - what is the best way (or a good way) to get to the truth of this sort of history, as far as we can know it? Often there are many variations of accounts about these sorts of things and for those who aren't as academic or don't have those resources or experience and who have found contradictions it can feel like it's difficult or impossible to know the truth. For example, some say the Waldensians come from Peter Waldo (and the name seems similar) but others say the group preceded him and the name actually comes from 'People of the Valley' with the original word for 'valley' slowly adjusting to become 'Walldensians'.
Can you recommend a book about these proto-protestant groups?
Like one you would use in a debate to back up claims - not just to read yourself
I was a Baptist for 35 years. What persuaded me to become Catholic was the "real presence." A lot of early Christians were fed to lions for this belief. Surely you know this. Not quite getting how you sidestep that one. It is like Neo dodging the bullets.... but i do appreciate your not shrill tone, your obvious deep learning, and a very dignified discussion. God bless you! Also, i had already been calling the Waldensians "proto-Protestants!" They are probably the most legit early group of the kind.
You don't have to be Catholic to believe in the "real presence".
Gavin, check out RORA by James Byron Huggins. It’s a historical fiction book on the Waldensians of the Piedmont and their leader Joshua Gianavel. It’s a page turner. I’ve read it countless times. It could be made into an amazing movie.
When you said they rejected papal festivals, does that include Christmas and Easter?
a lot of extraneous stuff given, before getting to the point, the Waldensians.
needs editing.
Do one about the Tawahedo Stephanites!
I think Craig Truglia and Fr John Whiteford said it best: whether it comes to the anomaly of Fr Schooping, or tracing Protestantism back to 1100AD max (after the West turn a serious turn for the worse), none of these examples is going to undo the fact that Evangelicalism is going down the drain due to how it has devolved, and more importantly, what it has devolved into. At the end of the day, Evangelicalism is going to keep dying as it has been because grace is not manifest there more than it is in a Kingdom Hall, or a Mormon church. The Holy Spirit sanctifies true believers primarily through the Holy Sacraments, which the Protestants debatably only have one of. The worst part is that they even reject this sacrament and in turn reject the gospel.
When people interact with the apostolic liturgy, especially those of the Oriental Orthodox churches, they come to know what New Testament worship really is, and it gives them a sense of how the New Covenant really is a continuation of the Old. There is no question.
LOL, God gives His Holy Spirit to people who repent of their sins and ask Jesus to be their LORD and SAVIOR.
It happens outside of the orthodox and RCC churches. You're opinion is supercede by God.
Thanks for commenting, Thomas. To clarify, we don't trace Protestantism back to 1100 AD. As I stated, most of my videos focus on patristic support for Protestantism. I just happened to devote this video to medieval proto-Protestant groups (some of which are earlier than 1100, as I mentioned). Also, Joshua Schooping is not an anomaly. I have talked with many people who leave Orthodoxy. It is strange, though, the way some Orthodox Christians react so aggressively to such occurrences.
@@TruthUnites hi Dr Ortlund, likewise thank you for the reply.
While I acknowledge that some of these groups (and others, like the Paulicians) are before 1100AD, they tend to be very... unlike any of the modern sects to put it lightly (as you yourself seemed to allude to).
Now, what you note of some Byzantines (who I do not consider to be Orthodox in the proper sense, as a miaphysite) is due to the fact that the presence of Byzantinism online is due in large part to a sort of internet subculture which circulates around a few individuals who do not necessarily represent the views of their church accurately.
I actually have much sympathy for this individual who fell from the priesthood, as all of his gripes with the Byzantine churches would've been solved if he had been Orthodox (that is to say, Oriental Orthodox). I had heard that one of the things he noted of his church was that they experienced a change in their Christology... Obviously this is one of the biggest sympathies I'd take with him. But anyways, I pray that he returns to an apostolic church rather than wallowing in the mud.
@@davidjanbaz7728 I don't disagree that the Holy Spirit is given to people who repent of their sins. The question is whether this repentance is done in communion with the bishop, through the sacraments, or whether it is determined by an ethereal feeling which gives us emotional pleasure.
Whether we like it or not, the Lutheran, Reformed, and Apostolic gospels are totally different in nature. It is inconsistent to hold as Christians those who pertinaciously hold to a different gospel than the true gospel.
@@thomascomerford9683 Sorry, friend as an Evangelical I hold the Gospel of Christ because it is He and the Father who sent the Holy Spirit into my life at the age 6 in response to my Repentance.
Outside you're rituals of baptism done by you're priests or Bishop.
The true Universal church is bigger than either the RCC or Orthodox combined.
You're fighting against God : you should listen to Gamaliel in Acts 5:34-39.