When Did Game of Thrones Showrunner Dave & Dan Become a Joke?
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2022
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Clip was taken from • Live From Taipei 8/8/22
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House of the Dragon is an American fantasy drama television series created by George R. R. Martin and Ryan J. Condal for HBO. It is a prequel to the television series Game of Thrones and is based on Martin's 2018 novel Fire & Blood. Set two hundred years before the events of Game of Thrones, the series chronicles the beginning of the end of House Targaryen, the events leading up to the Targaryen civil war, known as the "Dance of the Dragons", and the war itself. The main contenders are Houses Targaryen, Hightower, Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and Velaryon.
Game of Thrones is an American fantasy drama television series created for HBO by David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. Based on the fantasy novel series, A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin. The series is set on the fictional continents of Westeros and Essos, and interweaves several plot lines with a large ensemble cast. The first narrative arc follows a civil conflict among several noble houses for the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms; the second covers the attempts to reclaim the throne by the exiled last scion of the realm's deposed ruling dynasty; the third chronicles the rising threat of the impending winter and the legendary creatures and fierce peoples of the North.
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Yeah I do feel "she kinda forgot" was a real breaking point, because up to then Benioff had the sense to at least not REMARK on why stupid things were happening in the show. It was that moment when he became a meme, stupidly saying "I guess the fictional character kinda forgot, eh?" -- I don't think they ever even had to verbalize aloud why that was happening. People were stunned at the bad Long Night episode, yes, but ONE WEEK later, "Dany kinda forgot" - that double blow. Then of course the week after that Daenerys burning the capital...oh what a month that was!
This! All of this!. I remember watching the BTS special after the episode because I was still in shock. As soon as Benioff said those words, I turned my TV off and went to bed angry. I rage quit right there. I decided not to watch the next two episodes because I knew exactly what was going to happen. I read the spoilers after they aired instead. To this day, I haven't watched the last two episodes. I'll forever be salty. Making characters hold the idiot ball for plot points and going against their established characteristics will always be a cop out to me.
And an episode later, Bran has the best story and why do you think I came all this way? After saying he was not gonna be lord of anything.
When you remember that Beniof worked on LOTR and Hobbit
@@InfamousB9 What? No.
@@thedragondemands5186 Of course he is,look at the ends of movies,just after name of Peter Jackson come Beniof
Not enough time? Season 8 took an extra year off, but maybe by then there was no saving the plot? Oh wait, "I never really cared about the people" and "Dany kinda forgot" were written during the 1 year writing hiatus.
Sure, but season 8 was also filmed from October 2017 to July 2018 and was edited up until shortly before its release mid April 2019.
Season 7 ended August 27, 2017, so there was approximately a month between season 7 ending and season 8 filming. If D&D were heavily involved on set, that really doesn't leave much time at all for writing the script. Not to mention actors need the script in advance of production so they can rehearse.
Maximum they had the time from when season 7 start filming which was September 2016 to when Season 8 started in October 2017.
So D&D had somewhere between one month, and a year and one month to write an ending for GOT, and while I will never defend the absolute train wreck piece of garbage they released, I'd at least cut them some slack when GRRM himself is taking over a decade to release the penultimate book.
@@jakelabute5196 They produced more content in season 6 though, with less time and season 6 was better, even though not by much.
@@rsync9490 Season 6 has parts of Feast, Dance and WoW sample chapters. The rest of it is continuing on plots already established in the books in their natural trajectory, ie. connecting the dots that have been foreshadowed in the books, such as R+L=J and Dany coming to Westeros. Season 7 and 8 were the first time they were actually creating their own outlines and concluding the story, and also had no dialogue to directly take from the books, which is the largest part of script writing, and what they are the worst at.
I'm also pretty sure season 1-6 were all being written together for quite awhile, and again seasons 7 and 8 were the only ones they couldn't start ahead of time, because there was no book material. You can even see with season 6 they stretched Arya's Mercy chapter over almost half the season, which was them working with what little they had, not wanting to start anything new in case in contradicts what would happen in WoW. Season 7 was when they had to decide to go ahead in their own direction because they wouldn't have a book to follow.
wow, i "kinda forgot" they actually had the stones to have Jaimie say he never cared about the people... holy fuck, that may be worse than Dany "forgetting"
Was looking for this comment. They had more than enough time to write something better than cock jokes and reminiscing about past seasons.
“Weak men will never rule Dorne” was the moment I knew it was all down hill.
I don’t know, that’s one of the only lines in the Dorne subplot that sounded somewhat in line with the books - the sandsnakes do think Doran is weak, and resent the idea of Quentyn as heir, and some of them have been trying to betray him and take over rule. It was cringe in delivery in the show, but not completely out of line with the books.
@@adashofbitter it’s more how it was used to unceremoniously wrap up the Dorne subplot. Kind of like Cersei blowing up the Sept. they didn’t know to write it intelligently so they just swept it all under the rug.
I disagree with Preston on this one. D&D did well when they adapted Georges plot and added little scenes and moments (even tho they made big mistakes from time to time). Game of Thrones got worse and worse the further they went away from the original plot and did their own thing. In the end they didnt run out of book material it felt like they thought they could do better on their own
Exactly. They never ran out of book material.
I think the first cracks began to appear in season 5 with the Dorne plotline. It was the first storyline that was completely created by D&D without any commonality from the books. The Dorne story in the books is very different with completely different characters and motivations. D&D's execution of it was really shit by comparison and it was the first plot of the show that fans actually disliked A LOT. Hardhome was diff from the books too but it was executed very well. Season 6 is a coinflip in terms of plot because they have absolutely beautiful storylines and very boring ones too. I think season 6 has the 2 best episodes in the show with the Winds of Winter and Battle of the Bastards. Season 7 was a trainwreck after the second scene. Season 8 was abysmal.
Yep.and there are ppl that for example think they ruined Tywin in those scenes with Arya because they say Tywin is a bastard that wouldn't take the time to help Jaime to overcome his dislexia.
@@dhruv9744 I personally think season 6 is as bad as 7 and 8. Season 5 has a few good scenes. Game of Thrones jumped the shark for me when they left out Jamies confession after he frees Tyrion in season 4.
@@auranewaters9574 For me they jumped the shark in season 6 episode 8, No One. The whole Arya plot made no sense at all lol. Getting prison shanked, jumping into sewer water, telling fake Jaqen, a girl is Arya stark and I'm going home. You can't be Arya stark and still have faceless men powers, they'd kill her in 2 seconds. Plus why was she walking about all confident when she literally failed her mission and knew that they'd come for her? Even at the end of the last episode we see her blow out the candle and go retrieve needle.
TIme? HBO understandably stated that they supported GoT going as long as it could possibly could go. Michael Lombardo (who was at HBO at the time), Casey Bloys (who still is) and GRRM all stated they supported GoT going 10 full seasons (10ep/each). Although, in-house at HBO D&D started talking about season 7 and 8 only being 13 total episodes as early as season 4/5. The powers that be at HBO were incredulous. This is all documented in James Hibberd's FIRE CANNOT KILL A DRAGON, as well as, in several other places.
Lombardo and Bloys implored them to at the very least make season 7 and 8 full seasons, but D&D refused. So to recap, HBO offered them 10 seasons or 100 total episodes and D&D repeatedly said no and stuck to the 73 episodes they had planned. As to why HBO didn't hire other writers to come and finish GoT, HBO has a history of being a creator-focused network and felt that D&D had more than earned the right to finish the show however they wanted to. (though they were nervous as hell about it) Of course, I do completely understand HBO's stance on this.
However after season 5 of True Blood, Alan Ball told HBO that there was no more story to tell and that he was leaving. But HBO did not want to end True Blood because it was their biggest hit at the time. So they hired writers to come and continue the show. It lasted two more shitty seasons, ending after season 7. Maybe this experience affected HBO's decision to not do the same thing with GoT because of the backlash they faced from fans and critics regarding the inferior quality of TB's final two seasons.
It's worth noting that Alan Ball left True Blood because 'there was no more story to tell,' while the exact opposite was true with GoT. I wholly understand that D&D were physically and mentally tapped and needed to end the insane pace that they had been working at for several years. They also were likely anxious to begin the copious amount of opportunities they were both being presented with. But they should have understood that the story needed more than they could give and they should have acted accordingly. Much easier said than done, I know. Maybe they could have taken a step back on writing and just continued to be EP's overseeing everything while working on other projects. Or maybe they should have just let HBO seek other writers allowing them to leave. Of course, giving up their 'baby' (GoT) was probably just something they couldn't bring themselves to do.
I apologize for the novella. But lack of time for D&D was not the problem. D&D proved that they fantastic adapters of content that they are invested in and major fans of. Original content creation is still something that I feel they have yet to prove. That is not to say that they cannot do so, they just haven't yet. D&D were also much less inclusive of GRRM after they got his rough outline of key plot points for the remaining story around season 4. GRRM has stated that he felt out of the loop after season 4, his last season writing an episode. D&D probably realized that much of his focus would have likely been to make the series longer and they were just not having it.
After season 3 and especially after season 4, HBO was basically willing to let D&D do whatever they wanted regarding the structure of the series. If D&D would have demanded more time somehow, HBO would have conceded it. They had earned it at that point. I know D&D have said that they felt a time-crunch because most of the cast were getting other offers/opportunities and they feared that if there were breaks between seasons that they would lose the series' major players to outside projects. Though, this claim is highly suspect because most of the remaining cast were under contract and those that needed to be re-signed, HBO would have paid them to complete the series. Everyone was making mad bank: the cast, D&D, and most of all, HBO. It was not only HBO's biggest series ever. It was the biggest series globally for its last 5 seasons. All those involved were thoroughly enjoying this fact and did not seem to be in a huge rush to leave. Apparently, Kit Harrington is even trying to come back.
I sincerely apologize again.
Brevity is my bane.
the crack is in season 4 when they made Asha sail around the world twice to fight shirtless 20 goodmen for 30 seconds. Season 4 was good because Storm was a perfect book, you will have to actually put in some effort to ruin it
killing rob's wife just for shock factor was odd in season 3 tbf
The show dipped immediately after they went off book in season 5. It relied on big moments to overcome bad writing that people were willing to overlook so long as they had more big moments to look forward to
Exactly this
@@nostalgicbliss5547 that was when it was off the cliff lol. When they ran out of books. Which is why this is ultimately a large part George’s fault of course. I agree w Preston the cracks showed up earlier
season 6 is fine, season 7 and 8 was the real problem
@@marcos-ll2yr I’m sorry I didn’t tell you about the knights of the Vale.
I agree.
Season 3 there were cracks. Season 5 it turned into a fissure. Season 7 was a canyon. Season 8 was a black hole
What happened in season 3?
Don't forget about s4 where they were supposed to turn Tirion into a vengeful villain, but they wanted to save bromance between the brothers.
My jump the shark moment was when Jaime charged at a dragon and survived. It is a perfect ending for him to die in the stupidest way because that is what a hero would do
Yeah, the fact that they transformed such an interesting and misterious character like Melisandre into a whore whose main use was to show some tiddies in useless and unnecessary sex scenes (you don't need to fuck a dude to take his blood lol), tells you everything about D&D. That was the first crack for me.
My hate began August 2016, in the wake of Season 6, when I sat down to watch the Season 5 Blu-ray commentaries, and realize they're frauds and figureheads. Even RETROACTIVELY, I realized that Seasons 1 to 4 they were figureheads, and the directors and producers around them were working twice as hard to maintain the illusion they were responsible for all of it.
Wow, that's interesting, I didn't know
I like and have been a sub of Carmine and Preston’s channels for years. However, I’m going to have to disagree with Carmine. The Dragon Demands (sub of his for years as well) was hands down the very first person online and off who accurately and meticulously criticized D&D’s writing, directing and ridiculous micro-management style.
It's pretty weird how like from season 5 onwards there are indeed some very well written scenes but then something in the same episode is very dumb
Season 5 "cracks were showing"...? Even with the Sansa rape, TV Dorne, butchering Stannis?
To me Kingslanding storyline was not handled well either
Let alone euron jokes
GoT showed it's cracks much much earlier than season 5, especially after the first season; for example messing up stories as early as Jon/Qhorin Halfhand's in season two . The farther they drifted the worse it got, exponentially, to the point where pretty much everything past season two, maybe season three, is a complete hot mess. Some of Oberyn was enjoyable in season four and after that only the Others sequence at Hardhome was anything special. The first episode of HotD is honestly already better than 90% or so of the GoT episodes.
When cersei got no blowback from blowing up the Sept I was very confused. I didn't really care about that until the first two episodes of season 8 gave us nothing and I realized we had 4 episodes to wrap up the night king and crowning a new king. Once episode 3 hit I was done. The next 3 episodes were comic relief at that point but the first 3 episodes of season 8 was such a let down I'll never forget it
This... but hell, I'd argue they jumped the shark when one of Cersei's schemes actually worked instead of either it blowing up in her face or Littlefinger and/or Varys stepping in to safe her because she's so incompetent she's the most useful enemy for them to have in power.
Episode 3 was so beautiful but so dumb. From the military strategy to Arya killing the night king, my goodness what a letdown!
First 2 episodes of season 8 were just filler
I get they were doing GOT for 9 10 years straight. But respect the work for when it's left for the fans. Don't rush it off the screen so you can do other things. We the fans will live with this forever (the show itself) why not make it worth it. The people who worked on adapting Lord of the Ring Respected the work.
this point you're making is one I think of a lot. But also on top of total lack of respect for the fans and Georges story, d&d did a great disservice to everyone else working on the show. Everyone there, cast and crew, were giving it their everything to try and be a part of something truly great, putting their best foot forward. d&d completely disregarded this, slopped together the writing, to try and move on asap. I wonder if they ever think about that, how they let everyone down that was working on the show, completely letting the side down as everyone else was giving it their all, smh
As soon as they books ended you can see there's a change. They definitely quit on the show. It should have been 10 seasons.
But they didnt adapt books 4 and 5
@@auranewaters9574 right I just mean when they didn't have the books as a general guidelines things really fell apart. There's so much they did wrong in hindsight.
For me it was the Arya getting stabbed. I remember how all of RUclips was filled with theories of what had actually happened and then next week... nothing it was as dumb as you first thought.
I think the cracks were in season 4, but there were too many great distractions to be had for most people to notice or care. Season 5 definitely took a nosedive, though.
I agree with the specific timing of Dave and Dan becoming a fandom wide joke
I didn’t start reading the books until after I binged through season 5, and I knew nothing about Dorne. The cracks came for me in season 6 after Cersei blew up the Great Sept and becoming queen. What’s often called “The death of consequences” in the show. After reading the books, the show made even less sense because they cut so much that they shouldn’t have like Stanis plot lines and Jyne Poole. It still astonishing to me because D&D truncated so much material.
For me, the cracks showed with the whole Talisa subplot. Since she was an ex-pat Volantene noble turned nurse, I never understood why Rob just never kept her as a lover on the side and married the Frey girl since she didn’t really have any family to get mad about having a bastard. The fact that he snubbed the whole Frey family for a field nurse made so much less sense than welching on his deal for a noble woman
also losing the twist the maggie the frog is Jeyne's grandmother, at least that plot has some layers you can play with.
Why do you say kept her on the side as if she would have agreed to that? Or it's the kind of arrangement he would like with a woman. She was of the nobility and gave up that life to pursue her passion for helping and healing. Brianne was the other noble woman character in the story who felt free to follow her passions, and she also stayed true to her path. And even she needed her father's blessing. Arya needed her father to die. Neither of them would have agreed to become anyone's side piece, so why would a woman who committed her life to battlefields do so? I also doubt Robb would have preferred that. In the book he becomes Jayne Westerling's first lover, which causes him to marry her. Plenty of nobles had lovers, and Robb could have moved on. He wasn't raised like that, and it wasn't in him. Cat wasn't Cersai telling her son to mistreat women. Additionally her own customs may not have allowed that behavior and she may have refused to fuck him without the promise of marriage. She was in touch with her mother which most likely meant she had respect for her family and culture. For a whole lot of reasons Robb just deciding to keep her and make her his anything doesn't wash.
Field nurse was hot... that's why.
Why he married her in the book made WAYYYY more sense. In the book, he got hurt in battle and the nurse aided him back to health. Had sex with her and wanted to honor her by marrying her. So yeah…
I sometimes wonder if those 2 guys experienced depression or suicidal thoughts after the show ended. Imagine everyone telling you how much you suck for like 3 years straight.
Dumb & Dumber became a meme the moment the Arya killed the Night King, for the express purpose of "subverting our expectations".
In fact until this day, people still use the phrase "expectations subverted", when a show makes a ridiculous turn away from what it had been setting up.
For me it was when Bran was caught behind the wall and the bad guy drank out of a skull. That was when TV writers took over and it immediately showed.
Time was not the issue, they were bored and getting high on their own supply, so to speak. They were ready to move on to Netflix and Star Wars.
WERE ready, lol. I don’t know if a more hilarious self-destruction than them crashing the end of GOT with their hubris and losing out on Star Wars as a result, lol.
There is a timeline where GOT finished in 2021, we had 3 extra seasons instead of a stupidly rushed S8.
What went wrong is that they rushed the ending of GOT so they could do Star Wars 😄😁🤣😂😝 and after the backlash from the fans Disney/Lucasfilm told them nevermind
When some people achieve a lot of success very quickly, they get inflated egos and start to think they can do no wrong. So they stop being critical of themselves. They don't recognize their own mistakes and they stop trying to improve.
George Martin would not let them use the character of Jayne westerling, because of the changes
You guys criticized him early? The Dragon Demands has entered the chat.
Please! They started YEARS before DD was even on RUclips. To be fair it’s just all DD does.
Dave & Dan became a joke when The Dragon Demands started his video series on them.
Preston was earlier. Comicbookgirl19 was probably first though
Season 3 Robb is like “I’ve got a great idea! We need more men! Only one way! Lord Frey!”
It makes him an Catlyn look even dumber than they were in the book, even dumber than the show makes Ned look. I feel like even Ned would’ve known lord Frey would not take their side when they were so far down. Not even a reparation of the alliance or the need to pass north. It was Robb’s plan he came up with during a lady Tullisa ass shot: we can get some more men from lord Frey. Ridiculous
In the books, Robb knew fully well that he F'd up big time by marrying Jeyne Westerling and made up a backup plan to name Jon as his sole heir despite Cat's protests. That is why he walked in the Frey trap willingly, not because he was stupid, but because he wanted to be sure if it was a trap.
@@TheINSANATY he was still stupid for thinking he wasn’t getting betrayed. The violating hospitality makes it believable enough but it was not smart. The show makes him look dumb. Like a light bulb went off to call lord frey. And indeed in the show he falls for lady Tulisa basically cuz he likes her. Also stupider than book Robb.
It’s too bad D&D didn’t have the guts to step aside and let someone else take over the show after the once they ran out of book.
It was not a matter of guts, it was pure ego. Those two have the ego of trust fund fratboys who have never been told no and who never learnt to share, therefore they chose to sink and go down with "their" ship.
David was one of two people who wrote X-Men Origins: Wolverine. He was a joke long before production on season 1 had begun.
The worst moment IMO was between season 6 and 7 when Arya goes from a scared girl ready to Kill the Freys and return home to slick back haired Terminator sexy woman. Yes there were other issues way before this but that was the first time it didn't feel like thrones to me.
I started seeing cracks in Season 5 and 6 but they were still good. When we got to season 7 D&D by shortening the seasons it felt like they were just filming cliff notes. There was no story in between the big moments of season 7 and 8. Characters just appeared at their next destination like they time traveled. Felt very rushed and I was very disappointed.
Thank god we finally resolved Nipplegate.
On Topic: For me it was the episode Beyond the wall.
Couldn't take anything serious after it anymore, because it was just a clusterfuck.
When they omitted the Tysha reveal
Preston really is hellbent on insisting that D&D are competent writers isn’t he?
Jamie and bronn going to dorne was ridiculous.
Arguably s6 and s7 it was pretty apparent. S5 and s6 had quite a few cracks. I don't agree time was the problem. They valued things differently than what the fans wanted and that showed.
I'd say s6 middle was dull and distance between places became glosses over, Danny was relearning lessons and aria also, characters were just becoming more dumb. The spectacle was the better part of that season.
S7 was very rough. Especially going past the wall for proof.of the whitewalkers etc.
S8 was s8
I gave Dane and Dave the benefit of the doubt up until Arya killed the night king. That was the moment I knew for an absolute certainty there was no fixing this but the red flags were there for years.
Reward you for paying attention ---> punish you for paying attention because everything is nonsensical
Was a transition throughout season 4 and into early season 5.
D&D got too arrogant and also tired of working on someone else's world lol. Especially when it was clear GRRM was not going to finish the books before season 5. But they already changed a lot of things even when they had book material and some of those changes made no sense whatsoever. They also diluted the magical elements which fucked over Bran's character. They fucked over Dorne, they fucked over Little finger, Tyrion, Dany, Jaime, Cersei, Arya, Sansa, Varys, Euron and even Jon by season 7 and 8. It was a mess.
The Robert/Cersei scene isn't even worth praise; it's OUT OF CHARACTER for both of them. It's great acting...because it's a scene meant to show off the actors. Not to make them 3 dimensional. And "showing off Lena Headey" meant showing her in "motherly mode" even when Cersei in the books doesn't have a motherly bone in her body. That's all they had; scenes which in isolation might even be technically good, but didn't fit the story.
I still like them even if they're not true to the plot.
@@StockpileThomas1 they Reconceived the Role to Make It Worthy of the Actor's Talents
@@thedragondemands5186 I know that lead to some hilariously bad moments later on, but during the 1st season especially, I think the added scenes worked just fine. I remember reading the books between season 4 and 5 and I missed them dearly. They added so much character.
When the source material dried up and they had no clue what to do.
the ironic thing is they basically didnt adapt much of anything from books 4 and 5 . they had plenty of material they could of used but didnt and doing so made the ending crap
Season 4 had some serious cracks. Season 5 was it for me. Despite the fact that they were waiting on new material they rushed half the plotlines and made them nonsensical and pointless.
Just a heads up D&D didn't even meet with Disney for talks about Star Wars until season 8 had already completed the majority of its filming. All scripts had been finished for more than a year at that point. I get sort of frustrated when I hear 'they were distracted by star wars' when that doesn't have anything to do with why they wrote crap seasons of TV - I was in charge of monitoring leaks for r/freefolk so that's why I know the specific dates. The biggest issue is that they had a fantastic crutch with the earlier seasons to cover up the fact that they aren't good enough writers to finish what they started in the time frame that they wanted. Plots moved way too fast, character development sidelined for spectacle, and overall just an lack of self awareness for what made the earlier seasons good. I sympathize with them in that it's probably exhausting to have your entire life for 10 years be this single show, but they should have had the humility to understand they weren't able to do the story justice and give it to writers that could.
💯💯💯 ya that would have been a genius move but I wish George had the books done so nothing can ruin the true story and playbook but I understand he’s on his own time
idk if it’s possible or not but can u get preston to upload the streams to spotify? in like podcast form? it’s so much better to listen to
I run the Spotify and iTunes and all that. It's for the podcast stuff only. Sorry mate
I think the first big crack for me was in the third series. When Robb says something colossally stupid like the only man left who hasn't entered the war has an army to use...ole man Frey, when only two series ago Robb had contracted men from Walder for his army. It was such a piece of awful writing I did not understand how it could pass script doctors, and that the producers must have no idea about their own continuity.
Even the first time I watched it I knew something was off in that scene lol. And I hadn't read the books.
Yeah but then the frey soldiers returned to the twins when he broke the marriage vow.
@@jakelabute5196 That's a good point, but what I recall of the dialogue (and it's from memory from...who knows how many years), it specified along the lines of someone who had not entered the war and was fresh. I don't have the heart to go back and check, but it stuck with me.
Frankly the moment for me was when they decided to leave out Lady Stoneheart. As I recall they just labelled it as a bummer, and that was when I lost a little interest.
Season 2 the show went to shit.
People were blinded by the production values and top tier actors (the Stark kids notwithstanding). Qarth was an absolute joke. Talisa was a horrible character that belonged in the kind of fantasy material that GRRM puts to shame with his work. D&D butchered Stannis and ruined his build up. In Clash of Kings his intro is crucial (part of the prologue), in episode 1 of season 2 it is treated like an afterthought.
We had sweet grandpa Tywin, lanklet Mountain, good guy Tyrion, Shae being "in love" with Tyrion and the beginning of burying Tysha, Jaime the kinslayer, Renly the perfect future king, Brienne the butcher, Littlefinger losing 40 IQ points and his voice becoming cartoonish, Reek cut, etc.
Those of us who studied language and literature at uni knew the show was in trouble mid season 4 when certain characters plots ran out and their syntax brutally changed. There were subtle nuances in the way sentences were constructed depending on if people were from the north, the reach, dorne or the crown lands, but after Tyrion escaped the red keep and went to essos big things were removed (penny, varys murders tywins brother, Barbery Dustin, Quentin, etc) and either Varys' or Tyrion's speech pattern changed MID SENTENCE! It was the oft memed scene where Tyrion pukes on the terrace. Dim and Dong knew GRRM is a slow writer but didn't prepare for what they were going to do when they ran out of books and it shows. They didn't have the academic, cultural, linguistic baggage needed to even try, the humility to accept it or the honesty to admit it. (edit: capitalisation and autocorrect quirks)
“Those of us who studied language and literature at uni” has the same pretentious attitude as “you have to have a high iq to understand rick and morty” as if having a college degree is the only way to spot shit writing.
I was not ready to see Preston IRL
They had 11 years to know where their story was headed and what they showed us is what they came up with.
The Sand sister Bad Pussy line is where it started for me lol
I have mixed feelings about D&D. On one hand, were it not for them, a great many of us would never have discovered the books, myself included. On the other, they totally botched those final seasons, making them pretty much unwatchable, season 8 being the most egregious. Let’s hope the future shows are in much better hands and that hopefully we will get Winds of Winter in the near future.
The show fell apart during season 5. And the guy who is talking to you is wrong. David Benioff and Dan Weiss were never book fans and were caught plenty of times to have never read the books after book 1. They probably guessed Jon Snow’s parentage by reading Reddit threads, which is what they use to do.
Comic book girl 19 was probably the first to criticise the show adaption. I remember she stopped talking about GoT really early on at like season 3 or 4(?) because it was grinding her down
That's odd because it was still great till season 5
Wrong.
HBO wanted 10 or more seasons. Martin wanted 10 or 12. Dan and Dave wanted out. That's all, folks. They had all the time in the world but they just didn't want to bother anymore. And of course they didn't want anyone else to take the reigns and the glory of ending the show. They could have asked someone else replace them at the helm but they refused to do so.
That's why I hate them. Not for being burnt out, but for not getting more writers with talent to finish it, even just as a comprehensive tv show. All they need to do was get 5 ASOIAF nerds with writing talent who know the world and characters inside out and appreciate themes and seasons 5-8 would have been at least decent.
@@nostalgicbliss5547 It is unforgivable, especially given the cast assembled and all the effort put into the show by so many other people.
@@nostalgicbliss5547 If you put five ASOIAF nerds in a room together they'll start bickering over which one of their theories they should make canon, and it'll end in bloodshed before the day is done. The last man or woman standing will write a decent show.
@@Former_Halo_Fan You might be right. Some of these people have theorized on ASOIAF so long that they start believing their own hype that even if GRRM goes a different route they'll be very disappointed
9:33 you ask why they didn't bring in a group of writers. Well Dave is a narcissist and that would have threatened his control. Narcissists are all about control and fuel. If he gave up any control then he wouldn't get the fuel he needed to survive. Narcissists can ruin things as you can see.
Jamie and Bronn go to Dorne was a complete disaster. The writing was in the toilet at this point.
For fans? Dany somehow forgetting about Euron’s fleet. For the rest of the world? Season 8. For me? X-Men Origins Wolverine.
Season 1. Tyrion pissing into the wind on top of the Wall.....and I CAN HEAR THE WATER 💦 SPLASHING !!!🙈 Big ol crack to me
Bronn & Jaime going to Dorne did it for me
i didnt mind the podrick stuff because you can just attribute it to littlefinger telling the girls to try and get close to the hands squire, so he can get some insight possibly.
i call this situation "The Curse of Stannis Baratheon" they screwed him up and curse began on the show
I love the back and forth rapport you guys have,you dont give a flying f. what anybody thinks and I dig that.
The moment I realized the cracks were there were during season 4,there was simply a moment where I went "Oh..Im watching a TV show right now"..and it was all downhill from there.
OH WAIT!
WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS!?
Qarth was really the beginning of the end
When Jaime got his hand chopped off and it smash cut to a rock and roll version of 'Bear and the Maiden Fair'.
There was no going back after that.
Yeah. That still asks me.if they were going to play that song at the end of an episode, it would have made more sense in the episode with an actual bear and maiden
I love the meeting analysis
As soon as season 5 leaked
Pod the Rod is a popular pun but people simply miss the plot.
Tyrion and Littlefinger wondered how Cersei came to believe Ros was Tyrion's love, implying some connection between the two. Littlefinger had the girls return Tyrion's money without Ros knowing. Pod told Tyrion and Bronn…
The next we see, Ros is discussing it with Varys, saying how she asked the girls and they reacted unusually. This is how Littlefinger verified that Ros was spying on him.
TheChaoscard- you ought to hear the story of my mom trying to buy straws from a grocery store.
Remember the sexposition scenes? The ones that were clowned on even in the stellar first season? I reckon thats more like what Dan and Dave wrote, they said it was the tits and spectacle that they cared about. The pilot was a total disaster and people around them had to step in to save the show. After that they probably let the more competant people around them run it until their heads got big and they started to insert themselves into it again.
The way writing credits work on a TV show is everyone works on the whole script together but individual writers get credited for episodes based mostly on seniority, Dan and Dave got most of the writer credits because they were the producers and showrunners. But I doubt they're responsible for any of the new content except the stuff when there were tits on screen, and maybe adapting the stuff george had already written.
I wouldn't be surprised if GEORGE wrote all the stuff that he said 'he wished he could have put in the book'. That feels very George. 😂
9:25 - HBO DID offer to give them a full writer's room but they refused.
I think that the entire show should be considered as am expensive fan fiction, because it already had too many changes since Season 2. And worst part is, is that George had no creative control over the show and his work at it just backed him from writting The Winds of Winter. That is why I don't consider it as canon, unlike the books. House of the Dragon, my only wish is that it retcons the original show and opens for a possible future reboot series.
God no. Please not again.
The show's quality began to decline with Barristan Selmy's death in Season 5, and then with Dorne, The Arya Plotline in Season 6, and truly began to break at the seams with the rushed writing in Season 7, and it was fully solidified with Season 8.
You are right. For me, the behavior of Arya in season 6 didn't make any sense. The part when she's looking for a ship to go back to westeros in the most loudly way possible, I was sure it wasn't Arya but a faceless man because there no way Arya would be so careless
They drank their own ego, it's really telling when you read their interviews, and they thought they were smarter than everyone in the room. HBO gave them everything and the production was amazing except for the most important part: the scripts
At some point after season 4 the fans started noticing things became off, but when they started their nonsensical comments after the episodes with their sauer faces, as if they were these tortured genius artists, who we should respect and admire for their difficult work, that's when people became more publicly annoyed.
They did not run out of books to adapt. They just got conceited and thought they could do it better.
I wouldnt have cared about the red wedding without Talisa. Which was a surprise, since that doesn't happen in the books. My wife was pregnant back then, tgat scene hit HARD
Its really a couple of factors.
The first: GoT had consumed their professional (and likely personal) life and extinguishing massive opportunities outside GoT (Star Wars for example). They are two working writers who in a space of a few years became the "hottest" creative duo in a long time. So they hurried through to the end in order to undertake new horizons and in a perfectly Martinian twist of irony, lost their projects due to the resultant sabotage which sprung from the want to end the show that made them in the first place!
The second: D and D are great adaptationists. It may be a tired argument at this point but its true. Once the source ran dry they had nothing to bounce off of outside Martin's cliff notes of vague possible finalities. Its a shame because had George finished his series, the show would probably have been fantastic from beginning to end as apposed to fizzling out.
@@blaubeer8039 Okay
i really liked the final reveal what podric did to get free service at the brothel, or at least the theory: probably sang a couple of songs and everyone got teary eyed so he didnt have to pay lol
Even tho I'm 43yrs old. I want preston to take me to prom.
Preston with the sophmore jinx
Preston is being really gracious to D&D here, after having professionally eviscerating them for years. Good on you mate, but I really don’t think they deserve your magnanimity.
"Attack Attack"
Bronn's lady friend, whom they discuss at the end of the video, goes by the name Sahara Knite.
Your point about Oona Chaplin is completely on point 🤣🤣🤣
They became a joke to me when they changed Daenerys story in season 2 from the books.
10:40
Almost as ridiculous as Tywin conversing with a serving girl (Arya). No burn intended, Carmine (well not exactly 😁).
I love reasonable Preston. Fantastic
I think that around 25% of the book fans were disappointed and/or hating on D&D by the end of S4, and that number probably went up to 50% by the end of S5, but we were always the minority in social media and the overalll fanbase. Maybe 5-10% of the total. Season 6 and 7 actually galvanized some D&D support, I think, with some people actually praising them for passing George, and I actually remember some people praising the death of the Night's King, but I don't think anyone stood behind them after The Bells.
I don't think Talisa was bad, but I think she was a sign to come because she was merely a plot device in order to enhance the red wedding. Which I mean worked, but that was because of George's event and the leg work with all of the other characters up until that point, and then them adding the shock value moment of her being pregnant. It was quite brutal honestly. Talisa was barely a character by herself, the backstory was mostly just filler, cobbled together stuff.
Fast forward to the later seasons and there they were using most of the characters as mere pawns to get to the place they wanted to go to. Not human characters to tell a story with. The characters that had been there became Talisa like husks of themselves, and any new characters were just there for plot points only.
I was screaming “Bron undressed her!!” At the screen he does it as he’s talking about his nose being broken
I just kind of forgot about D and D
I watched this just because I'm in love with Preston's brain... To see his face so much, I'm going to have dreams...
The blu ray commentary of season 8 the bells told me all I needed to know Dany didn’t grin kings landing that was wildfire but according to the vfx they said it was changed for some reason in the script that Emilia red she bribed the red keep only and wildfire was ignited accidentally that’s also why Cersei closed the doors to sacrifice some people
Good job 👍
easy answer, when the source material was no longer there to hold their hands, the show fell apart
Let him answer!! 😆
In the Italian American community, Carmine is seen as an old man name so it's always fun to hear RedTeamReview's voice and know it's coming from a relatively young guy with the name of an old Italian guy in Rhode Island that buys cars from police auctions for his car sales lot lol