Vaemond Velaryon's Death Should Have A Huge Impact On House Of The Dragon, So Why Isn't It?
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- Опубликовано: 17 май 2024
- Vaemond Velaryon's death was one of the biggest moments in season 1 of House of the Dragon. In theory, Vaemond's murder should have had a huge impact on House Velaryon and the entire story as a whole. So, why isn't it having the impact that it really should be?
Content Of This Video:
00:00 Intro
00:22 The Difference Between F&B And HotD Vaemond
04:20 The Unexplored Crisis For House Velaryon
08:21 The Internal Conflicting Politics Of House Velaryon
14:02 The Greens Know They're In Danger, So Why Don't The Velaryons?
16:21 Outro 
Развлечения
This is my first video using my new microphone, so let me know how it sounds, if you can even tell the difference! Also please congratulate me for successfully saying the word "extrajudicially" after literally trying and failing like thirty times.
Sound is good!
Sound is good, and congratulation, it was in the Article I was questioned about during my finals at School and decided to avoid it, I am a non-native Speaker and struggled hard. But that very unfair English teacher of mine really tried to make me say it.😡 He failed.😈 Seriously it is good to know that even native speakers struggle with that Word, but how did you manage to say it?
LMFAO I had to say it by itself instead of within the sentence it was written in, and even then it took me multiple tries to get right. And I had it written into the original script at least 5 times but cut it down to one because I have accepted that my mouth is not physically capable of forming that word.
@@HillsAliveYT Still congratulation, i know how hard that Word is. And your editing is perfect 👌🏻 I really didn't realize you said it outside of the sentence.
Personally I liked the "super-pinky-promises " line better , also mic sounds really nice
I know a lot of reactors on RUclips called him stupid and cheered Daemon on during the succession scene but Vaemond has my respect. He stood up for himself and his values in the face of what he saw was a total farce and slap to his face knowing what the consequences would be. What better way to stick it to the powers that be than publicly stating the cold hard truth?
Vaemond's death was totally used as a sigma male moment for Daemon instead of what it should have been, a potential rift in the team black alliance.
While the race-swap for representations sake is something i thought added to the show, I think that this is one reason why the decision to make the velaryon's black was uniquely brilliant and wasn't just a race swap for the sake of representation, but also a decision that really elevated the story and the conflict at hand in other ways too. The fact that the strong boys are so OBVIOUSLY not a part of the velaryon bloodline really helps to humanize and modernize our understanding of Vaemond and his reckless fury over the false succession. He is literally watching the legacy of his bloodline being ripped away and stolen from him by schemers and connivers, and for him, this isnt just about the title, its about the death of velaryon blood, the thing that, in his eyes, made them unique and proud amongst the houses of Westeros. As the actor who played Vaemond said in the post show interview. "those kids are f*cking white!"
#vaemonddidnothingwrong
I felt that when he said “her children are….BASSSTARDS!” 😂 My man put passion into those last words.
LOL Wil Johnson's post-show interview was everything though! And yes, the race swap is really interesting and can be even more so if they actually engage with what it means, like within the show it is obviously meaningful but from a meta-textual level the fact that the most powerful black characters in the story are being usurped by white people is pretty effing symbolic.
Mhmm. ☝🏿 Say it louder for the peeps in the back.
It's even more brutal when you consider that the Velaryons were almost certainly at Driftmark for decades if not centuries before the Targaryens turned their gaze to Westeros. It's even probable that their connection with the sea Religiously could stem from their being religious refugees that left the Freehold owing to it's treatment of religious minorities (Company of the Cat has a great video about this).
Add in that the Dragon Bond only entered the family through Rhaenys, you realize that Luke inheriting Driftmark is going to effectively reduce House Velaryon to little more than a Targaryen cadet branch. Vaemond is watching his family history and bloodline be supplanted and coopted by outsiders, and like Alicent with Aegon's birth right, he is expected to sit back, let it happen and not make any waves (no pun intended).
@@theduxabides9274 if we are being entirely honest, house Velaryon effectively already is a cadet branch of house targaryen. There has been far more intermarriage between the houses than just corlys and his children. Even aegon the conquerors mother was a velaryo. His son married a velaryon too. The houses are for all intents and purposes one and the same.
I can’t believe Corlys didn’t give a shit about Daemon killing his little brother
And they call Otto the ambitious one...
Yeah that is very weird.
And this was after they threw away Corlys's son. The same family. It is wild.
His brother betrayed him and tried to usurp him
By the time he is informed there is nothing he can do. As Rhaenys says: they must fight the greens to protect Baela and Raena
Coryls' reaction to his BROTHER being executed without a trial is one of the most out of character and bizarre choices the HoTD show made
Why would there need to be a trial? everyone saw him just commit treason out loud in front of like 15 high lords. Ned Stark didn't get a trial either, there is a reason for that.
@@grimaldus1523 But the KING killed Ned after he declared his head to be taken. That didn't happen here. Daemon just killed him. That's wrong on so many levels.
@@janellejulianajoy Daemon is the Prince and he killed a man for insulting the wife and crown princess, not a huge difference except viserys was a legitimate king and Jof wasn't
@@grimaldus1523prince != king
Daemon has zero jurisdiction over a noble man's life w/o trial, esp one who's apart of the richest family in westeros as the time
@@aminaismyname4318 thats not how the feudal system works....the king isnt the only one with the power to execute someone
*_If the unjust execution of Ned Stark is enough to start a civil war, then the notion that House Velaryon would simply let go of Vaemond's death and work tirelessly and truthfully toward Rhaenyra's ascension to the throne is legitimately unbelievable._* Oof! You really hit hard with that one. To the extent that most of #HotD's audience doesn't seem to appreciate the meaning and ramifications of Vaemond's execution, yes, it is absolutely misunderstood. I also fear the showrunners also don't have an appreciation for what it means, and as a result will fail to fully explore the negative consequences it should engender.
Tldr: House of Dragon writers prefer Rhaenyra.
I too fear that Daemon worship will dumb the show down.
@@arielpearson4819 This is definitely not Daemon worship. Daemon has been stripped of all characterization as he's basically a plot device at this point. He is not a character.
In F&B, Rhaenyra ordered Vaemond's death, Daemon kills him and Rhaenyra has his remains fed to Syrax. Even Viserys ordered the tongues of Velaryon's removed because they called Luke a bastard.
On the show they've whitewashed certain characters and have gone overboard with others. Daemon stands out the most. Yes, he can be chaotic but there was always a method to his madness. He loved people outside of Rhaenyra and Viserys. He definitely loved his twins, especially Baela as she was basically his shadow. You'll see later Baela is Daemon in female form. On the show Daemon just does things with no real purpose. Daemon isn't oblivious either as there is no way in hell he'd leave Viserys in the state he was in after questioning the medical care he received at the hands of the Hightower's.
If I never read F&B I would constantly ask what point Daemon does Daemon serve other than giving the Black's a dragon.
@@TheGoodLuc Absolutely. Anything that "Maegor with tits" did in the book that could be considered wicked or evil was given to Daemon in the show. I have hopes for season 2 but I already see some of the Game of Thrones style trappings occurring in the first season. I just hope they fix that shit for season 2 and actually allow Alicient and Rhaenyra to be deep and realistic characters instead of idealized fan-service. I swear if they mess up Cregan's characterization I'm dropping it. The worst thing is I've seen people argue that HotD is more canon than F&B because F&B is written as an unreliable history book while the show is the "truth of what happened."
Also in F&B didn't have Rhaenys have black hair from her baratheon side and that is often the official explanation for the Strong boys' hair color? That they just got their grandmother's hair color?
@@silverwolfe3636 They're planning to do B&C in the very first episode of season 2. Rushing through an event like that without properly engendering the audience to Helaena and her children shouldn't give you much hope imo
I've argued with so many people over this topic. People just believe Corlys can give the House away to whomever he chooses, when that's not how it works around here. Corlys may have enriched the house and made it greater, but he did not build it. It's not his to give away. Vaemond was probably with Corlys during those 9 voyages, and somehow he's the bad guy and a opportunist for trying to get Driftmark. Most people in the Seven Kingdoms would have done the same thing if the opportunity presented itself. After all it is his families inheritance being supplanted by the children of House Strong. It's ironic that a few days later, the same thing would happen to Rhaenyra's inheritance.
Actually Corlys was the heir to his house and ruler over Driftmark, whose throne he DID build. Vaemond was a second son who stood to inherit nothing. He took Corlys’ illness as an opportunity to assert his claim as a second son to prevent the Driftwood Throne from being inherited by a bastard not of Velaryon blood. Not only was it treasonous to say that Rhaenyra’s kids are bastards, but the succession had already been determined by Corlys and his brother was directly challenging that.
@@kendald8099 Corlys did not build the Driftwood throne. The house existed thousands of years before him dating back to Old Valyria. From what we have been shown not even the head Lord of a House can skip heirs (even if he doesn't like his immediate heir) without reason.
Randal Tarly had to threaten Samwell to join the Night's Watch so he could clear the way for Dickon to inherit, Aegon IV favored his bastard Blackfyre son over Daeron II but couldn't name him heir, and what stopped Robert from abdicating and becoming the Sellsword king in Essos was the thought of Joffrey on the throne. Also Rhaenyra lying about her sons legitimacy was treason.
Let me guess you are team green🙄🙄🥴🥴🥴
@@Stoic-Waziri I'm Team doing what's right for the collective, not just Rhaenyra. Doesn't matter what color you wear, wrong is wrong. No one should be able to steal away an entire families inheritance, and murder and mutilate them if they have a problem with it. It's called having morals.
@@Stoic-Waziri I hope this doesn't start in this fandom. I have to respond; being honest isn't claiming a side.
I'm team Black simply because Rhaenyra was named heir and Viserys never unnamed her as his heir. However, you have to call a spade a spade. She is clearly lying and passing her children off as something they aren't. It's treason and it's wrong. Rhaenyra is the Queen of gaslighting and there were so many times I wished someone would slap her. Her arrogance has always been turned up to 1000, and it showed.
The Velaryons meekly following Rhaenyra will be even more insane after she sends Rhaenys alone into a trap to die AND gets High Tide sacked, the fruits of Corlys’ life’s work gone…
There is a lot of great potential for them to portray internal conflict with the Velaryons and the Blacks both before and after Rhaenys, but if they don't acknowledge the danger and tenuousness of their alliance further down the line it will legit make no sense.
@@HillsAliveYT sure , but the blacks can clamp down on internal velaryon power with effectively sending say daemon or one of the dragon seeds to driftmark and telling them make them fall back in line
I hope this moment is handled appropriately. Corlys was rightfully pissed and almost abandons them until Jace names him hand.
I may be in the minority but I'm still wondering why Baela and Rhaena are holding on so tight to the Black's. TV Daemon isn't book Daemon and he clearly ignores them. Like...there isn't a relationship there anywhere.
@@janellejulianajoy well daemon is still their dad, and also maybe they genuinely hold some feelings for luke or jace that would be a much more interesting point , right
@@janellejulianajoy Baela and Rhaena have no personality in the show
Corlys, the guy who felt disrespected when Viserys turned down his marriage proposal that people were scared he was going to tear the realm apart. Corlys is probably the proudest man in the entire story I don't think he would be okay with a guy who bears the velaryon name being executed without a trial. Even Tywin wouldn't stand for that. House velaryon is sad because at least Jace is obviously Rhaenyra’s son, so he's a Targaryen for sure. Luke has no velaryon blood at all, the only Velaryon blood he has comes from his great great great grand mother.
How does Luke not have valerian blood
@@Gotlove-zq2zy velaryon the house not the people
Luke might not have had Valeryon blood, but his children with Rhaena would've.
@@fortheloveofcats2462 he’s still stealing from rhaena and baela it would be one thing for him to be their consort it’s another for him to take the seat as a rightful velaryon
@@fortheloveofcats2462 But HE doesn't. I would entrust Driftmark to Baela over Luke...you know...the girl actively living there with Rhaenys. This is the same argument I use in defense of Rhaenyra, yes, her children with Harwin are bastards but Rhaenyra herself isn't a bastard.
This entire situation rubs me the wrong way because Vaemond was right. People ignore it because it was on behalf of Rhaenyra and her son.
I've said it before, if this were Stannis questioning the validity of Cersei's children and he had the same outburst Vaemond had you would see way more support for him. Fans would be outraged that he was killed for telling the truth.
It doesn't matter how you slice it. These kids are bastards. Period. They would forever be questioned and the moment Rhaenyra died the validity of their inheritance would be contested. Jace would not be King and Luke would not be the Lord of Driftmark.
People glorifying Daemon for killing Vaemond is the dumbest shit I've ever heard. On so many levels it shows a lack of understanding why Vaemond is absolutely right in what he said but also just a kind of callousness that shows their bias.
Vaemond's death is not only a major red flag for the Velaryons but also for the Greens, Daemon taking It upon himself with no authority to kill Vaemond with Rhaenyra's blessing because he was deemed as a threat is something that could also happen to the Greens and especially to Alicent's children and is supposed to solidify all of Alicent's concerns about the Blacks, but instead after witnessing that she reconciled with Rhaenyra and apparently had no issue with handing over the power to her and Daemon which really doesn't make sense, I feel like the show is purposely ignoring all of these issues to make It like the Blacks and Rhaenyra are totally unproblematic and the Greens having no justifications for what they did.
Uh yeah, the fact that Alicent reconciles with Rhaenyra literally like three hours after this happens is hella weird.
@@HillsAliveYT Everything that happened, like Aemond's maiming, the "murder" of Laenor, Rhae and Daemon accusing Alicent of poisoning Viserys and then murdering Vaemond is supposed to make Alicent double down, and solidify all the enemities, instead they made her backtrack and reconcile which was totally nonsensical only to make Alicent more sympathetic, which wasn't necessary because her motivations are already very understandable and also to make It like Rhaenyra is the good guy and her & Daemon on the throne is unthreatening and unproblematic which isn't the case.
@@bloodravenn8305 The writers wanted to make Alicent and Rhaenyra childhood friends to add another layer of tragedy to this story, of two women going from friendship to mortal enemies over the question of succession. But they failed because at some point they needed to allow the relationship to turn actually hostile but for some reason they couldn't let go off this sentimental frenmity between these two. This weird mix of rivalry and closeness even shortly before war erupts between their respective branches of the family just doesn't work and turned Alicent's character into a complete mess. I would have much preferred to see the sweet and innocent Alicent from episode 1 grow into the stern and determined Alicent we know from the book.
@@pg1448 Yeah, I loved the idea of making Alicent and Rhaenyra childhood friends, It would serve to add background to the characters, dramatise the conflict and make It more tragic in a great friends to enemies arc, and they did a pretty good job of that until that feast in episode 8 when they backtracked and reconciled which was totally nonsensical especially from Alicent's part and now their friendship feels totally forced and dragged, I think because they wanted to make It like the war was the sole fault of men and they're blameless but really just ended up taking a lot of agency from them.
@@HillsAliveYT Yes ep7 and Rhaenyra and Viserys' reaction to Aemond losing an eye should have been the point of no return for Alicent. The fact that she suddenly reconciled with Rhaenyra after she told her a few kind words is just weird and led to the writers having to incorporate this stupid misunderstanding to give Alicent a motive when she already had a perfectly good one in her desire to protect her children
In both the show and books canon, I don't understand why the Velaryons are allied with the blacks. Rhaenys in particular has taken L after L through siding with the Viserys and Rhaenyra and it just seems so bizarre that they'd continually risk the lives of their daughters in a war they have very little to gain from. At the beginning of episode 10, I thought Rhaenys' plan was to provoke a war between the Greens and the Blacks, and then pick off whoever's left. But no, she just allies with the Blacks.
Simple last of the elite they have to stick together
Realistically, Laenor should've been the last straw.
Like, I don't get it at all.
What makes the Blacks elites over the Greens? If anything I would've expected Corlys to take the opportunity to a) take revenge on Viserys/Daemon/Rhaenyra for obvious reasons and b) bargain with the Greens to get their decendents on the throne like they originally wanted and in a safer manner too. It was a viable kills 2 birds with 1 stone angle. But no they just... sacrifice literally everything in defence of people who previously wronged them.
another point for alicent. she's the only one who actually gave rhaenys the respect she and her family deserved, only to be met w/ "you want to create a window from your cell".. ma'am, you wanted for your husband to make a decision you talked him into. THE CALLER IS IN THE HOUSE
@@twigsnoExactly!! I have said the same numerous times! House Velaryon should've remained neutral or made an alliance with team Green.
There is no love or respect from the Black's at all (and I am a Rhaenyra supporter). I was glad that Rhaenys suggested that Baela should inherit Driftmark. Like...who ignores this level of disrespect?! Especially the night of Laena's funeral and that trifling wedding the moment Laenor is found "dead"?.
After Vaemond is killed for speaking facts, Rhaenys should've packed both girls up and taken them back to Driftmark, and due to what we've seen...I'm sure Daemon wouldn't give a fuck. I for damned sure wouldn't have accepted a proposal that was akin to a hail mary pass in order for Rhaenyra to save herself.
A team Green alliance would have been amazing. Aegon is taken, so this leaves both girls betrothed to Daeron and Aemond. Whoever Baela marries would be her Consort after she inherited Driftmark, giving the Green's Corlys' entire fleet. They would also lose Rhaenys and Meleys. Ergo, they'd be fucked.
Again, I'm team Rhaenyra but fair is fair and the logic ain't logicking. She has done absolutely nothing to have their allegiance.
the fact that corlys didnt even speak against the maiming of his own cousins in the books...........its so insane, thats literally his family and hes letting them be maimed and killed and humiliated for the sake of his own ego
And a. Granddaughter or Two
That's why I could never understand or connect with Corlys. The Velaryon support of Rhaenyra's claim is even more confusing when adapted to screen considering how often she and Daemon have wronged that house.
I mean I can't say for certain but I have long assumed that Corlys was planning on betraying Rhaenyra once the Greens were defeated because the entire role House Velaryon plays in the Dance legit makes no sense to me otherwise.
im ngl it always seemed like team black plot-armour to me. there is no situation where letting himself and his family be walked on and literally killed by the blacks is a W for him.
like bro that's your house members!! some of them are knights and all of them are nobleborn, on top of that they are your own relatives. are you just going to sweep everyone that holds your house name proudly under a rug? doesn't shit like this make your great house look bad at all?
Ned Stark dies standing against an usurping bastard claiming a title that by rights is not his, at the cost of his own life.
The fandom: Oh No! Ned! How could this happen. Man fuck the Lannisters
Vaemond dies standing against an usurping bastard claiming a title that by rights is not his, at the cost of his own life
The fandom: YASSSSS QUEEN RHAENYRA, DADDY DAEMON SLAY!!!
And you know it's White people saying that shit
Not really the same thing. Corlys was still alive and never accepted Vaemond as heir. Vaemond is making a claim against his brother and taking advantage of the situation while Corlys was ill.
Ned Stark already has found out about Joffrey, who is already hated by the fans. People didn't just dislike him for the execution, they dislikes him way before that when he was being an ass at Winterfell and towards the butcher's boy who was playing with Arya.
So people not liking that makes sense.
Vaemond is first seen making complaints about Daemon in the step stones and Laenor is disagreeing with him and so is Corlys, Vaemond was never likeable from the beginning.
Who was likeable? Rhaenyra, who had been a main character from the start and she was made heir and was to be the first queen regnant which is a big thing for a woman. She had 3 children which were rumoured to be bastards but unlike Ned, Vaemond can provide no proof of this. He went to king's landing because the greens supported him and then the king coming in had put an end to their plot. Viserys was confused to why this matter which had already been settled, was being brought up again. Rhaenys back Rhaenyra and the greens had lost. Vaemond could've shut up and left in disgrace but he chose to open his mouth and make insults and accusations that he couldn't prove. Daemon dared him to "say it" and he did, so he got himself killed.
The way you frame it, is as if the situations are exactly the same. Ned Stark was dead once he spared Cersei and refused to stage a coup with Renly. Cersei had told him "when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground." Ned had no idea what she meant by that. She was playing the game.
Greens and blacks are also playing the game. People spreading rumours about Rhaenyra affects her and of course she isn't going to just let that slide. Again, no proof. Why would Rhaenyra just say "I guess my children are illegitimate, so I must step down from being the heir now". This makes no sense and green fans treat this like a normal family issue. What is happening here puts herself and her children in danger, she has a right to protect them. The greens have always wanted the throne and Vaemond was just another ally to recruit to their side, the blacks eliminated a threat and got the upper hand against the greens in this situation. This was both sides playing the game, greens trying to disinherit and the blacks protecting their family and preventing the greens from taking driftmark, so that they could gain the powerful navy. Everyone knows the greens are out for power, so trying to make Rhaenyra into a Cersei character with this comparison, is a poor analysis of the situation.
I watch videos from people who support different sides to see what they say but some of the greens like to attack anyone for liking blacks and call them stupid, which is getting too personal. It's a TV show/book. Please don't insult people over fiction.
Honestly, I hate how the relationship between the Velaryons and Rhaenyra and Daemon is portrayed on the show. Why is Corlys, the second most powerful man in Westeros, so subservient to them? Why does he keep bending over backwards to accommodate them when they give him almost nothing in return?
Corlys behavior just doesn't make sense to me. Who does he tolerates Rhaenyra parading three boys who are obviously not Velaryons and passing them off as heirs to Driftmark? Not only do they not have his blood, but it was been agreed that Jace will be bearing the name "Targaryen" when he ascends the Iron Throne (making his sentence "history doesn't remember names it remembers blood a bit nonsensical within this context" . Viserys threatens to tear out the tongue of anyone who wants to expose this scam and endorses Corlys's own brother being murdered in front of everyone for trying to do that and Corlys' reaction is just like "fair enough" wtf. Did he hate Vaemond?
They could have made the relationship between Rhaenyra and Corlys more equal super easily: Ep7 we see Corlys mad about the situation, raging to Rhaenys but he can't say anything because Viserys would have him killed/he's too ashamed to admit it in public. There's a confrontation between him and Rhaenyra. She concedes that Jace will bare the name Velaryon-Targaryen when he becomes king, that her sons will marry Baela and Rhaena and Corlys will be her Hand. He is appeased and they continue being allies. They could have made his main motivation the protection of his granddaughters. Have Rhaenyra and Daemon promise him tons of trade benefits idk. But as it stands sorry but he just kind of comes across as a doormat. I mean do the writers know that it's possible for the Velaryons to ally themselves with the Blacks because they think they'll get more out of it/their granddaughter's sake AND make them resent Rhaenyra and Daemon. Loyalties can be complicated. Corlys and Rhaenys can and should be allowed to hate Daemon and Rhaenyra for, as far as they know, having their son murdered, killing Vaemond and publicly humiliated them by trying to make people believe that Jace, Luke and Joffrey are Velaryons.
Exactly! Do you think Tywin Lannister would've allowed ANYONE to spit in his face after he's done nothing but support you?! Hell no. He would've made a public declaration, but he would definitely bide his time and fuck them up later.
Do you think Tywin would stand if Kevan were killed without a trial? He started an entire war because Tyrion was kidnapped. This would've had him join team Green so fast he'd have whiplash.
@@janellejulianajoy hell the starks, baratheons, or aryns wouldn't stand for it either
I feel disgusted by Rhaenyra and Viserys after Vaemond's death. People are arguing that TargTowers were usurpers. Well atleast they are legitimate and blood related to the throne. Rhaenyra is trying to steal the driftwood throne and basically stamping out their legacy.
Again Rhaenyra is using the oldest strat in the book here, she’s doing what the knights of the Golden company want to do , marry the female heiress to a house. Rhaena is the heiress to driftmark, well her or baela but you get the point
@@Ule_blood i understand that but there are numerous velaryon claimants. Having rhaena as a co-inheritor is just to put Corly's blood in there but Baela was the one trained and more well suited to inherit it. Alicent's offer to give the Driftwood throne to Baela is a much better deal
The usurper argument is a bit iffy to me but I also feel like Vaemond's murder lowkey makes it irrelevant. Like, even if you believe that the Targtowers were usurpers, given that their options were either usurp or likely die, I don't think they can really be blamed for attempting to take the throne for themselves.
@@maylynbayani baela is going to be queen if the blacks win long term
@@Ule_blood so?
Daela was queen and that don't give any power to housr Velaryon
Joffrey had Ilyn Paybe chopped Ned Stark’s head off because Ned was against Lannisters kids being bastards.
Fans: “F*ck you. You f*cking psychopath!”
Daemon “the internet boyfriend” chopped Vaemond’s head off because he was against Strong boys being bastards.
Fans: “What a legend! What a badass!”
It’s not about characters are good or bad. It’s about which team and which character is a fan-favorite psychopath.
Nope Joffrey was no baratheon
But rhaenyra 's kids were valyrian
And that's all matters
@dracarys 🔥 It matters because they aren't VELARYON. If that's the case, Corlys also of Valyrian heritage, has a shot at being king once Viserys dies.
@@Pookie12396 Vaemond is both Valyrian and Valayron. Their parentage matters when they want to take over an entire house they have no ties too
This whole argument about history remembering names instead of blood is wild to me. In-universe history remembers that Rhaenyra's sons weren't Velaryons. It remembers that their illegitimacy was one of the many justifications for the Dance.
I'm not particularly supportive of anyone in the show or the book (except Helaena) but Rhaenyra is particularly frustrating to me for so many reasons. Her trying to make Luke the Lord of Driftmark is just one of those reasons.
From her POV, she needed to stick to her lie or she and her children would be in danger of treason. Of course, she lied, she wanted to protect her head and wanted her sons to have things.
It would definitely lose her allies though.
@@Secretgirl97 I think what it comes down to is that she really should have been more careful about her choice of lover. She might have been in love with Harwin and I think she may even have looked at Alicent with her 4 Valyrian looking kids and thought she could get away with it but Harwin just wasn't a smart choice. She clearly loves her children but her choices left them vulnerable from birth.
@@Cole_E He was also in proximity. I don't think that princesses have many discreet choices of lovers in general. Guards are an easy choice.
And of course she would prefer to sleep with someone she loved. Vaemond lied in saying she was a whore (beyond that not being mentioned much as why Vaemond got his head chopped off, because it was a stupid insult for him to make at a princess), she's obviously not. She just wants to sleep with men she loves, not with men who are gay XD
I do agree that she was dumb for it though lol. Should have done genetic research like Ned Stark before taking the plunge but alas they didn't know how it worked back then.
LOL yeahhh, the point about them being remembered as illegitimate children is actually an especially salient point. Not that Corlys would have been able to know that ahead of time, but considering that their illegitimacy was a very widely known thing pretty much as soon as they were born it's weird that the show threw in that reasoning for Corlys supporting Luke as Lord of Driftmark.
seriously you can't have the name without the blood
What you said about "acting first" made me wonder.....maybe one could say Rhenerya's love for Daemon was her first and most major political problem. I could totally imagine Alicent telling her "EVEN IF I FELT I COULD TRUST YOU (which after lying to me in front of the Godswood, I don't) DAEMON WOULD ASSASSINATE MY SONS IN A HEARTBEAT, NO MATTER WHAT YOU PROMISED!" And yeah......the fact that Rhenerya so blithely ignored Daemons treatment of his wife AND HER MURDER should make anyone in the 7 Kingdoms nervous.
Or I would say that Daemon's successful grooming of Rhaenyra was her first and most major political problem. And I completely agree, I cannot grasp the argument that the Blacks should be trusted when Daemon was leading them aside Rhaenyra.
@@HillsAliveYT you're right. He did groom her! I take back/apologize for putting the ball in her court on that one.
@@robstewartstewart98 Oh yeah that wasn't a dig at you or what you said at all! It's just generally weird that so many people don't acknowledge what a problem he is when he's a creeper who spent literal decades grooming his niece so he had a better shot at gaining power.
@@HillsAliveYT no, I'm glad you pointed that detail out. While I do wish the cut scenes of Daemon were kept in, I'm increasingly seeing why the writers wanted to keep reminding us that Daemon REALLY is not a good person!
Por q todos se quejan q daemon es mayor que rhaenyra si lo es pero rhaenyra estuvo con harwin y criston cuando aún era joven pero no veo q nadie se queje de ellos y a pesar de todo los 3 hombre, daemon estuvo con rhaenyra asta q ella era mayor nadie dice q daemon es perfecto pero todo solo se quejan de daemon y no de los demás
I hope we will the Silent Five next season (even if they still have their tongues), because they're a proof that Corlys failed as a lord, and that the Velaryons feel genuinely threatened by the Strong bastards
They're a fascinating facet of F&B and given that they kind of have to stop whitewashing the Blacks so completely at some point, omitting the Silent Five completely I think would be a mistake overall.
Knowing how fucking biased the show runners are to Team Black, the silent five might be the normal five who are cocky arrogant greedy bastard trying to steal Driftmark from Jace and all have their tongues because Viserys and Rhaenyra would never injure their competitors
If the Blacks were to call me to side with them during the dance, I'd ask them why I should when they're so willing to kill their own supposed allies behind their backs. Also, I'd never want to serve rulers who do whatever they want regardless of precedent and rules. Some of Westeros' rules and norms are absolutely vile, but some exist to stop rulers from abusing their power. If these rules don't apply, then does any rule do? Or is it as long as the ruler says so? Not very stable especially once that ruler is replaced. It will always be "we only do what they say" always. My life, property, and livelihood would never be assured nor protected with rulers like that.
I didn't think it could be done, but you are making a Team Greener out of me. In fairness, my crush on Aemond was nudging me there already. You just started pushing me over the edge. haha
the show makes the worst out of the greens, in the books both sides had their dark rumors lurking around. aegon being a RapISt is a rumor in the book, told by mushroom. a rhaenyra simp
Team Green is the ONLY WAY!! 😂🤣
They did Corlys character so badly that I don't think his own 9 voyage spinoff show is going to have good start because Corlys is badass.
If there is no attempted coup within house Velaryon in season 2, I will be disappointed. Because the source material is well written, and actions have consequences.
Regarding Lucerys' paternity, in the books you can argue Corlys doesn't believe it,. but in the show he already admitted he knows, which would beg the question, save for number of dragons, why support Rhaenera at all?
One of his granddaughters betrothed to Aemond would have addressed this, though they do both hate him after he claimed his dragon. So, there's that.
I think you give GRRM's Dance a bit too much credit. A lot of people in it make decisions that make zero sense. Rhaenyra should have exactly zero allies, not just because her claim is weaker than Aegon's, but because she's also scheming to put bastards on not only the Iron Throne, but on other families' seats of power too. Not only that, she seemingly goes out of her way to alienate every great house in Westeros, and she's putting someone as volatile as Daemon in a position of significant power.
It's easy to blame the showrunners for many things, and they've certainly made the problems present in GRRM's writing even worse, but a lot of those issues were GRRM's fault too
@@theavidgamer6213 well the oaths, and also she has more real power then her brothers , besides we know that she’s half arryn so maybe jeyne who fears her Male cousins will usurp her, and another sign of females inheriting would do for her
@@Ule_blood the oaths became a lot less clear the moment Aegon was born. The Arryns supporting Rhaenyra could make some sense given that they are her maternal family.
The bigger issue here is the bastardy. Forcing bastards into the throne could set a precedent for all other houses to experience constant rebellions from their own bastards, and no lord is willing to risk supporting Rhaenyra for that, especially not considering that the Greens also have dragons of their own and have competent leadership too, and again, Vaemond's murder made the Blacks' tyranny very clear to all lords of Westeros, which makes even less sense why Rhaenyra has any allies in the Dance.
This reminded of another frankly hilarious part of F&B: when Alicent Hightower suggested another Great Council between Rhaenyra and Aegon to settle the matter of succession once and for all, Rhaenyra refused because, apparently, she would be at a disadvantage, even though most of the bigger houses in Westeros ended up supporting the Blacks in the end. Fire and Blood does a very bad job of trying to make Rhaenyra and the Blacks seem like the underdogs when they really aren't.
I think people should just accept the fact that the Dance isn't exactly GRRM's best writing.
Why would corlys marry his granddaughter to aemond? Aemond could only inherit the throne if aegon and both his sons were killed. It makes far more sense, if like corlys you want your descendant on the throne, to support rhaenyra and marry baela to jace than it does to marry her to aemond.
Jahaerys on the other hand would make sense, though jahaerys is notably younger than baela and it is highly likely that he would marry his twin sister jahaera instead.
Also corlys' stake in the fight has already been mentioned. "History doesn't remember blood, it remembers names."
@@theavidgamer6213 "most of the great houses supported the blacks in the end." Thats only because aegon refused to pardon any of the blacks and the riverlands armies slowly defeated every single one of the green great houses.
Vaemond's family better come through for him. Because there is no way. There is no way you out here killing my family, and I'm fighting for you.
Baratheon's out here saying no because they didn't marry his daughter. And yall out here....
Yes, very true but I doubt that this will happen because Martin did write the Velaryons as Black supporters although they have EVERY REASON to instead fight them.
@@saymyname2417 i honestly think he did it to make the sides balanced. Because there's no way Rhaenyra had a chance without the Velaryons.
@@beautifulblacksoul8611 I mean I could see her swinging a few houses who hate the Hightowers so much that they will fight them no matter what
@@beautifulblacksoul8611 I also never understood why Jason lannister was a green, cause he lost one mariage proposal back in the day. Like house Hightower are active rivals of his for control of trade and money on the sunset sea. Beyond that house lannister has been obsessed with getting dragons case and point them courting rhaena, so like the greens have a very limited number of dragons and dragon riders
@@beautifulblacksoul8611 - Yes, that's true but the way he wrote the story it still isn't very believable that the Velaryons would be on Rhaenyra's side. Yet, without them she would indeed have no chance at all. With all their ships and wealth it is absolutely imaginable.
I agree that House Valerian's loyalty to the Blacks is very strange considering the fact that they have so many good reasons to hate Daemyra. As far as Rhaenys and Corlys know, Daemon and Rhaenyra had their only son murdered so they could marry. Rhaenys also stated that she believes that Daemon contributed to her daughter's death through neglect and his refusal to return to Westeros where she would have received better medical care. And then there was the fact that Daemon murdered Corlys' brother - his daughters' great uncle - in front of his daughters and the entire court. This was done not because Vaemond insulted the crown Princess with his accusations but because Vaemond's claim to the Driftmark throne endangered Rhaenyra's succession. Then after this execution, the Targs all settled down to a cozy dinner as if the extra-judicial murder of the sibling of a vital ally couldn't possibly upset anyone. WTF?
So far Rhaenys' loyalty to Rhaenyra has been weakly explained by implying that she wants to see a woman - even one she hates - ascend the Iron Throne. But in a vengeful feudal society like this, the fact that Corlys and Rhaenyra would be so forgiving of all the dirt done to them by the Targs - both real and imagined - makes little sense. It would actually be more understandable if they sided with the Greens if for no reason other than revenge.
There SHOULD be better reasoning for their support of the Blacks.
Or, they could at least explain their loyalty to the Blacks because Baela and Rhaena would ultimately be under the care and control of Daemon and by extension Rhaenyra, but for some weirdass reason the show acts as if Rhaenys is the person with control over them.
the fact that in the series Rhaenys suspected R&D of killing Leonor for 6 years and did nothing doesn't make sense to me either.
I think during this time Otto could have offered Rhaenys a deal that would have been much more beneficial for the Velaryons than supporting Rhaenyra.
They could have betrothed Baela to Aegon and made her queen of 7 kingdoms ( it was possible since Aegon and Helaena weren't yet married in ep 7).
Aegon had stronger claim than Jace bc he's obviously a trueborn + he would have reigned after Viserys died when Jace would have become king only after Viserys and Rhaenyra.
Such an alliance was more possible in the show than in the book for two reasons:
1.There is less conflict between Rhaenyra &Daemon and Rhaenys & Corlys in the book.Rhaenys didn't suspect Daemon of killing Rhea Royce;Daemon treated Laena well, while in the series Rhaenys blamed him for the death of her daughter;in the series, Rheanys was sure that her son had been killed by R&D.
2. In the book, Viserys was the one who betrothed Aegon and Helaena, although Alicent was against it.Therefore, the greens couldn't use children to create alliances.Whereas in the series, Alicent had the power not only to disapprove the proposal to betroth Helaena and Jace, which Viserys liked, but also immediately betroth Aegon to Helaena.This means that in the series she had a lot more power and influence.
To sum up, I think that in the series, the alliance with the greens was more profitable and more possible for the Velaryons than in the book:
Greens, unlike blacks, didn't wrong the Velaryons, so they ware easier to trust. Also, as I said, Aegon was a better candidate for Baela's hand than Jace(politically).In addition, if the Velaryons supported the greens, then the Driftmark would have gone to Rhana, not Luke*
(*I also want to add, that Rhaenyra's claim depended entirely on the Velaryons.If they didn't recognize her children as legitimate after Viserys's death(!), then she wouldn't have any rights to the throne due to her treason.Baela and Rhaena would have been rightful heirs to Driftmark).
The only problem would be Daemon since he is the father of the girls.
But in the series, Otto offered to kill Rhaenyra, her sons, and most likely Deamon, immediately after the death of the king.While in the book Aegon was the one who wanted to kill them.
Show Otto is capable of murder and show Rhaenys has more reasons to hate R&D, so I can easily imagine their arrangement to kill Daemon.
OR even after ep 8, they could have betrothed Baela to Aemond/Rhaena to Daeron on condition that their daughter would marry Aegon& Helaena's eldest son Jaehaerys.
The Velaryons still supporting Rhaenyra, even after she disrespected them is ridiculous.
When did she disrespected them ??? Huh??? It was a velaryon who disrespected her
@@Pookie12396 having bastards and saying that they’re Laenor’s, when they’re not is disrespectful.
@@jjs1300000 then y to blame only rhaenyra??? Y not laenor??? And corlys himself wanted Luke to be the heir,,
Actually it was rhaenyra who cared abt the honour of their house by keeping laenor 's sexuality a secret
She loved laenor as her cousin
Laenor considered her children as his . Lady of driftmark rhaenys even considered in court Luke is true heir,,
@@jjs1300000 Jace does the worst. If it's true, this little fucker gets married to a Northern girl while securing the North's allegiance. Yes, he's still betrothed to Baela.
It's nerve. Like, dude, you are literally walking around with a get out of jail free card! You are a bastard. You are not a Velaryon, and yet, he chose to break the betrothal after we clearly see that without Baela, Rhaenys nor Corlys would've stayed to support Rhaenyra.
I know it's an arranged marriage, but like his mama the rules that apply for others doesn't apply to him.
I can't wait for the moment Corlys blesses them all out next season. I'm just upset about the tragedy that leads to it.
@@Pookie12396 She disrespected them by having bastard children and trying to pass them off as Velaryon. She did it again by as far as the Velaryon's know murdering their son Laenor. Finally, Daemon murdered a member of their family and faced no consequences for it.
I love your nuanced takes. Team Black stans have zero understanding at all of Rhaenyra and Daemon's crimes against the realm. I think they're petty authoritarians who do not understand that the actions of rulers have consequences, that laws are meaningful, and that the constant application of violence is neither an ethical nor a practical approach to leadership.
HoTD is basically if Cersei was the protagonist. I'm so tired of everyone kissing Rhaenyra's ass.
I felt bad for Vaemond even if I’ve generally sided with the blacks. Man had a point and I understood why he felt the way he did
Same. I'm team Black but his death was wrong. It's crazy how many people thought the man telling the truth was wrong.
@@janellejulianajoy well is more about how colosal of an idiot he is and how much he does stuff that should screw him over
so true, if I was in his shoes I would feel threatened. in his actual situation, in which all of my children and siblings will be in mortal danger I will want them to have a fighting chance.
Glad you made a video over this, for real.
I truly felt for Vaemond here, tbh.
People say he didn't fight in the Stepstones but he was always involved, and even tried to get them help when clearly, Corlys and Daemon had no intent on getting reinforcements (survived by sheer luck with Daemon's stunt). Vaemond was even down there in the final battle, on the field fighting alongside Corlys. He wasn't lying when he said that he loved his brother.
Like, even Rhaenys didn't want Driftmark to go through Rhaenyra's sons but, she was loyal to her husband, who she disagreed with. It's why Rhaenys stood over Vaemond's body as it was being prepared for travel, since she knew he was right.
Shoot, even Daemon himself said that Vaemond didn't care about the politics and all that, he only cared about the Velaryon Line and Driftmark, which is reason enough to be upset.
Vaemond was right. Sure, wasn't the smartest move when he let his anger/frustration get the better of him in the middle of court, but I understand his feelings there.
"Driftmark is mine, by all rights"
- Vaemond Velaryon, speaking facts, RIP.
#TeamGreen
I think a significant problem that exists within F&B and that HotD hasn't done anything to really resolve is that the Blacks are treated like the main characters so people have the weird expectation that all other characters revolve around them, ergo everything that anyone else does is driven by how they feel about Viserys, Daemon, or Rhaenyra. Like yes, I would agree that Rhaenyra and Daemon are especially the main characters, but if you actually look at most of the major players from their own POV rather than trying to relate every choice they make to the Blacks, a great deal of what they do makes sense and isn't villainous in the slightest. The Blacks are definitely interesting characters in their own right, but the story is much more compelling and complex if you don't assume that they are the sun that every other character orbits around.
Rhaenys was a thought away from abandoning Rhaenyra and in a way I wished that she would have.
The entitlement rubs me the wrong way. Those boys aren't Velaryon, Corlys doest owe you shit. A betrothal can easily be broken, Corlys still doesn't owe you shit. They believe Rhaenyra and Daemon were complicit in Laenor's death, Corlys especially doesn't owe you shit. Yet, according to this fandom, he does.
It's GOT all over again. Narrative is being ignored in favor of who is the most popular.
I am not team Green, and I never will be, but, I do wonder how everything would have played out of allegiances changed. Betroth one of Daemon's girls to Alicent's sons. This removes Daemon from the equation as he wouldn't move against his own child and if he did, I am quite certain Rhaenys would handle that.
I feel like Corlys' "History remembers names not blood" speech (as fantastic as it was) was partially a way for the writing team to be able to hand wave most of these issues. If Corlys doesn't care who holds driftmark so long as they have the Velaryon name, he doesn't care that his brother is dead. It does however hugely take away his character in a way, I also think the show would 100% be more interesting if they considered Vaemond's death and its effects both politically and on Corlys personally. Sadly I am also force to recognise the lack of time they were playing with for this season. Part of me wishes they had spent this season on earlier build up but I don't think that would have been feasible. Great video, also your new mic sounds great!
I like a lot of the writing and cinematography in this series, but for me, their ability to follow up on these plot threads next season will be the deciding factor as to whether or not I consider HotD a great show. Hopefully, they can show more of the feudal mindset of other Velaryons/other houses and explore their thoughts to help viewers understand how much of a threat Rhaenyra is to the stability of the realm, not to dog on Rhaenyra but to frame the conflict in a more nuanced way. The new mic makes your voice sound fuller, and the recording seems less airy than before.
Yeah it does seem like the House of the Dragon writers chose favorites and villains, and went out of their way to portray them like that? (having Daemon choke Rhaenyra, Rhaenys crash the wedding and heroically only kill the nameless masses, etc.) I think reducing Rhaenyra's involvement in Vaemond's death was in service of making her a "good guy" by the writers? This sucks; its the exact sort of thing that trashed Tyrion and Arya's characters in GoT. I hope the writers learn their lesson for season 2.
If they keep going down this path they will share the fate of Game of Thrones.
I can't wait to see how they handle Blood and Cheese.
I swear if they find some way to exculpate the Blacks role in the murder of baby Prince Jaehaerys, I'd stop watching not only HotD but any other spinoff.
@@gerardjagroo so in the last 2 episodes of HotD season 1, Mysaria helped Otto track down Aegon, right? and in response, Larys told Alicent that Mysaria could undermine them, and gets her permission to attack Mysaria. And then Larys burns down... I think its Mysaria's headquarters? Though it could maybe be Otto destroying the child fighting pits... (the whole subplot is drastically overshadowed by the dragon stuff; I expect most viewers have forgotten about it)
So I'm guessing they'll have B&C be mostly Mysaria's brainchild, with maybe some prompting from Daemon? Though I like the idea that Alicent's aggressiveness comes back to bite her; would be nice if a) Rhaenyra saw the same sort of long-term consequences for her actions, particularly with the Velaryons, and b) Rhaenyra actually had some agency involved in making these incredibly brutal decisions.
Well it's interesting because the show plays it off that way but in the actual interviews I've found the cast and crew to be outrageously even-keeled about the reality of the Blacks being pretty dickish, so I wonder where the disconnect is coming from and if it will change as the story goes forward next season.
@@HillsAliveYT that's good to hear!!! Hopefully next season they don't feel obligated to cram so much plot into just 10 episodes, that they can let each plot point breathe and emphasize all the little consequences?
@@Mj_Jetson Yeah, the proposed length of the entire series is what has me the most worried tbh, because if they only do 3-4 seasons then they are literally just not going to have the time to get into anything aside from the major beats of the Dance.
As much I have been enjoying the show I've noticed a lot of big moments such as this or the dragon pit incident should have had more consequences.
It actually still baffles me that they decided that mass murdering a bunch of small folk was Rhaenys' badass girl boss moment and not treating it as the careless act of violence that it was
same thing applies to Cersei blowing up the sept of Baelor
Any other ruler of Westeros when a potentially fatal brawl breaks out in court: "Stop this madness in the name of your King!"
Viserys: Does nothing
Rhaenyra (Who encouraged the quarrel): We're leaving! I want supper.
Otto: Disarm him!
P.S.: The only time Viserys seems like he has an inking of competency as king is when he's reprimanding Daemon or Rhaenyra.
The fact in Show canon, Corlys was completely fine with a bastard with no velaryon blood getting driftmark and lord of the tides after him without even being betrothed to a velaryon to at least continue the bloodline, is bafffling. Like right up until the hearing when Rhaenyra begged and offered the 2 betrothals to Rhaenys, Corlys's plan was really to let the main male line of velaryon blood die out as rulers, and a bastard posing as a velaryon rule over his lands and wealth, while another gets the iron throne, both free to marry anyone and so ensuring the velaryons lose their own home as rulers while the dream of a velaryon on the iron throne dies out which he is somehow happy with. In books the bethrothal was arranged when Rhaena and Baela were 2, very soon after they moved back to westeros and were presented to the court, not some last minute resort that rhaenyra had to use.
i agree that seeing how the Blacks deal with those who challange their inheiritance, by murdering the claiments, just adds to the Greens worry that they would be put to the sword when Rhaenyra asends the throne. even if Rhaenyra herself had no plans on killling them her non reaction to Daemon's actions just adds fuel to their concerns.
He really said: I wanna become a Canadian from South Park!
OMG too soon
Her children are bastards buddy!
In these times of sycophancy, double standard and apologism for immoral behavior, you are truly the voice of reason in this fandom.
I cannot tell you how relieved I am that someone else will call out brutality, dishonesty and immorality for what it is even though it seems like half the fandom is drinking the Black Kool Aid.
Not that I'm pro green or anything.
people nowadays want to go with the girl power movement. ignoring that fire and blood is a story about how monarchies tend to ignore the well-being of the common folk
#TeamSmallFolk
Same, i’m gonna love it when they introduce the shepherd to kill off their lizards
@@aurorajude4674 This guy gets it #TeamSmallfolk
At this point Rhaenyra and Daemon are menaces to the House Valayron and the fact that they're on their side makes absolutely no sense especially Corlys' decision or chalking his bro up to being too ambitious. It was honesty toxic to see people wholeheartedly defend Rhaenyra when she has done nothing but get other people maimed or killed for her lies and intends to corrupt and entire family line. It is so bizarre that Damon's daughters love them too, but I guess they're young. Regardless, why would Vaemond or anyone besides the the Blacks want them on the throne when they are the Daemon /the Targaryen's puppet.. Saying he disrespected their claim is ridiculous bc just as ppl say Daemon would make them marry the bastard boys anyways. It makes sense he would try to circumvent them and the man who contributed to the deaths of his nephew and niece. Him dying gives even more fuel for other Valayrons to rebel.
Them being Black is all the more poignant, but if there is absolutely no bounce back or repercussions going forward within their House then the show can't really be trusted. As pretty much the only Black family/peoples are going to accept that within a generation the head of the family of the House will be unrecognizable?
The main reason why the Velaryons side with Rhaenyra is to make the plot work by giving her an army big enough to start the war.
It makes zero sense for Corlys to side with the people who murdered his son, his brother, and got his daughter killed albeit indirectly.
If the Velaryon fleet flips sides, Rhaenyra is trapped on Dragonstone with only 2 adult dragon riders. Maybe she and Daemon can burn the fleet but then Vhagar shows up along with the other Green dragons.
You mentioned Ned Stark's execution as a comparison but I'd like to give another one: Tywin Lannister started a war in the Riverlands when the son he hated more than anything else was taken prisoner. And his reasoning for it really SHOULD apply here for the Velaryons as well. He wanted to show that nobody could take ANY member of House Lannister, no matter how disliked, as a prisoner without suffering the consequences. The notion that somebody could murder a high ranking member of House Velaryon in broad daylight in front of witnesses and nobody even protests is bizarre.
I feel like we should also discuss the manner of death. Westerosi society values honor more than anything else. Killing someone from behind without giving them the chance to defend themselves like Daemon did, is one of the greatest offenses you can commit. Even if nobody were to protest Vaemond's death they should at least protest the way he died.
I just said this! Tywin started a war because Tyrion was kidnapped. Corlys has his a brother killed and a son murdered by who he believes is Daemon and Rhaenyra, yet, he still helps them? Come on now.
@@janellejulianajoy Yes, that was so stupid.
That's what I thought as well. When I saw Vaemond's death, I was like, "Won't anyone of his family start plotting against the Blacks?" Also, IMO, I don't think that Vaemond's death will affect the Dance of the Dragons that much, given how tokenistic the show treats the bipoc characters.
I think it established pretty well that Corlys and Vaemond were not on very good terms well before Vaemond was killed in the throne room. Vaemond was audacious enough to passive-aggressively call the strong boys bastards DURING LAENA`S FUNERAL.... while he was GIVING HER EULOGY...which leads me to believe that he has probably hectared Corlys about it directly enough for Corlys to compel his silence.
That definitely could be the case, although Corlys would be pretty savage if he didn't even care about his brother being killed. But even beyond that, his personal feelings aren't the most important aspect, it's really the fact that he was extrajudicially killed without warning for publicly stating the truth. Sure, Corlys could maybe assume that he'll be fine so long as he doesn't break ranks with Rhaenyra or Daemon, but the knowledge that he's now in an alliance with people who are that unpredictable should be pretty damn unsettling to anyone.
@@HillsAliveYT honestly I think it shows the marstars like to dramatize events because if it happened like it did in the show then they should say that because I’m this instant it was a bad move by the blacks no dragon needed
Yes I fully agree Miss Hill, Vaemond’s death should have some major ramifications. In fact, I would say it should create some major disorder within the ranks of The Blacks. But I can’t help but have the feeling it won’t. The Showrunners have went out of their way to make the Blacks more positive and heroic, while vilifying anyone who speaks against or oppose them.
The ramifications is when most of Corlys cousins decide to fight for the greens. The other is I guess the battle of the Gullet when the Valeryn's get attacked by the Triarchy
I feel at least Corlys’s support of Rhaenyra could be tied back to what was mentioned in your previous video about betrothals. His two remaining legitimate granddaughters are betrothed to Jace and Luke respectively, and I strongly doubt that Rhaenyra would take very kindly to any potential showing of cold feet. So Corlys may be trying to not only ensure the ascension of power for his granddaughters, but also their safety now that it’s too late to reconsider.
Even if that were true though, I have a feeling that would only account for part of the justification, and the varied feelings throughout the family still need to be explored.
I think that is certainly a factor, especially since at this point Baela and Rhaena are really his only remaining direct descendants, but it clearly puts him between a rock and a hard place given that everyone else in House Velaryon would obviously not be okay with giving up their claim to a stranger because one of Corlys' grandchildren will eventually be the mother of the Lord of the Tides.
@@HillsAliveYT beyond like every lord of the tides will be of laena’s direct line, and will be of velaryon blood
@@Ule_blood Yes, and if they follow the books, they will be Black, not White and Targaryean
But in the show Corlys was supporting Luke and Jace way before they got betrothed to Baela and Rhaena, and it wasn't even his idea
@@kaylalovell98765 in the show corlys is a rhaenyra simp. in the books he at least pass off as a hopefull fool, thinking that the strong boys are his actual grand children
All this makes me wonder what the show plans to do with Laenor's character. I fear that we only have bad options. Either the show will never bring him back, letting him live "happily ever after", though I personally wouldn't call it that. Or, they will bring him back just to kill him quick. The best use of him would be to bring him back and do something compelling with his character, where he has some sort of arc, but I don't have faith that the writers are willing to explore that. They're more likely to Rickon the shit out of him. What should happen if he returns, is that it should create more conflict between Rhaenyra and the Velaryons.
from what i remember corlys eventually legitimizes a bastard son of laenor's from essos to inherit driftmark. but everyone finds the excuse flimsy and believes it's far more likely the boy is corlys' bastard since it was a pretty open secret laenor was gay. i wonder if they might cut out the 'laenor's bastard' excuse and just straight up have corlys claim he has found his bastard son (who just so happens to look so much like his legitimate dead son) and laenor will retake his place as the heir to driftmark under an assumed name. honestly, i think if it DOES happen it would be ridiculous but honestly... some of the bigger moments in HotD i already find ridiculous. much as i enjoyed the show i think it fumbles some big plot points (like vaemond's death, joffrey's murder etc.) that make it difficult to understand why characters react the way they do, or rather why they don't seem to react at all.
@@rhonab6698 Yes, I remember that part of F&B. The show could definitely bring back Laenor under an assumed identity, but that identity can't be Corlys' bastard son. It would be so unconvincing. I would even go further and say that for Laenor to come back as a different person, he cannot been seen by any who actually knew him, other than the ones who know he is still alive. I guess what I am trying to say is the only situation where he should be seen by the public is from afar on his dragon.
@@Mic-Mak If Laenor return becomes widespread news then the realm would know that ALL of Rhaenyra's children are bastards
@@Mic-Mak but if they show Seasmoke…that would be a huge giveaway.
@@jjh2456 Yeah, but you never know what illogical things the show might force us to accept. Look at what they did with #GoT. Robb got married in the faith of the Seven, even though neither him or his wife were of that faith. Furthermore, Talisa was from a rich noble family in Essos, and was chilling in the Riverlands, the most war torn area of Westeros, by HERSELF. She had not guards, her family didn't try to support Robb's war, nothing.
This is beautifully deconstructed, having tried very hard I cannot find a loophole in this POV. This is the same reason why The Barons fought for and forced King John to abide by the royal charter of rights of the Magna Carta in 1215 in Runnymede. The King cannot just do whatever he wants especially to his Noble subjects. House Velaryon is one of the most powerful and noble houses with a lineage going back to old Valyria. This House is one of the bedrock in the Capital City of the Seven Kingdoms. It is so easy for those in Kings Landing to dismiss the Northern Lords and treat them brutally, the Mad King comes to mind. The killing of Vaemond in this way meant that Lord Corlys could have summoned the banners of all the other noble houses including The Greens resulting in a justified civil war with the possibility of the beheading of the King, Daemon, Rhaenyra and her children.
I don't think they'll address it from corlys perspective he said smth which meant: I knew it was coming for my brother. It's weird but seems like corlys got over it pretty quickly
Another great video, I enjoyed the points about Blacks' public brutality, and how it might have looked for greens
JUSTICE FOR VAEMOND! Killed for speaking the TRUTH.
I'm a black/white biracial woman and it bothers me that the show-writers made Westeros a color-blind society so the nasty racial implications of a white woman (who already has a rich and powerful family of her own) trying to steal a black family's wealth and legacy can go unacknowledged in-universe. I'm all for diversifying medieval fantasy, but at least give some thought to the writing of minority characters, Jesus.
Also your channel is a blessing, keep up the good work!
Totes. I hope they'll go into it more in the future, but to completely sidestep the fact that extremely white supremacist-coded characters are murdering black characters to steal their shit is wild. I definitely appreciate expanding the representation as well, but if they don't engage with the political implications of the Velaryons being black in a world hugely dominated by white people then that's a huge missed opportunity and makes it feel like token representation.
@@HillsAliveYT Exactly.
@@HillsAliveYT 'extremely white supremacist-coded characters '
Who are they?
I'm wondering if this was done to make Addam and Alyn Vaemond's children with the intent to not make them Corlys' bastards for some reason.
If dragon riding is genetic they're probably not Corly's children anyway. I personally find it kind of suspicious that Daemon in F&B chooses to rock up on Driftmark just after Addam is born almost like he went to check up on his new bastard son...
That's actually a pretty plausible theory, especially given that Rhaenys and Corlys seem to be the only non-toxic couple in the show.
But then wouldn’t their support of the blacks make no sense?
Alyn considered Corlys to be his father, and he must've heard it from his mother. But Corlys did have the dragon blood in him as well, as most Valerian families had intermingled for years. He might not have the Targaryen blood specifically (even that's highly likely though) but the blood of other dragonrider families from old Valeria.
@@fortheloveofcats2462 For the Velaryon to have the blood of another Valyrian family would be rare if not impossible. In Valyria the families considered noble houses, were dragonriders (and only dragonriders). The Velaryons were seen as merchants and nothing else. They didn't get real power until the Doom and the Conquest, the Targaryen only intermarried because there were very few left with valyrian blood. And even then, Velaryon women were the ones marrying into house Targaryen not the other way. Only after 100 years since the Conquest and 300 since the Doom, did the Velaryon got Dragons thanks to Rhaenys.
An affair, resulting in bastards, could be an explanation, but not through marriage.
All of that is a huge part of Corlys ambition, he wanted his house to be seen as more than just second best.
People sometimes forget that Baela and Rhaena are Daemon's daughters, they're not Valeryons, they are not under the guardianship of Corlys to do bidding for the Valeryons, not when their father is alive.
Well I get why they would forget because the show weirdly painted it that way, FFS they had Rhaenys "agree to the match" for Rhaena and Baela while Daemon was in the room and said nothing.
@@HillsAliveYTDeamon is with Rheanyra he goes with her decisions with whatever she decides. The Targaryen's dont care about the faith of the sheeps. Deamon sees Rheanyra's kids as Targaryen's noting else matters to him. Deamon is a Targaryen supremacist and sees the kids as Rheanyra's she is a Targaryen so are her kids noting else matters to him.
I wonder if it might have been better if Vaemond had petitioned for Baela to be made heir. (yes, she is a Targaryen, but If Jace could switch his name if he got the throne, then so could Baela)
Pro: Baela is the oldest legitimate grandchild of Corlys through Laena. And if Laena is older than Laenor in the show too, it would be very difficult for Rhaenyra to argue against it because she would be arguing against her own claim.
Con: Baela is also Daemon’s daughter.
LMFAO yes I feel like Daemon is the cause of like 95% of these problems, the argument for Baela is a decent one but would essentially make Vaemond ruled by Daemon so I can see why he wouldn't be pushing for that.
He can’t do that because she’s a women and it would confirm what all the lords fear first born females taking inheritance from the “rightful “ male heir and then they will wonder if their next if she could do that to her own son bastard or not
I really like Luke. However, no matter what, Vaemond did have a point. One thing is to put Jace on the iron throne, as his claim comes from his mother, so he is connected to the iron throne no matter who his father is, he isn't a non relative claiming it and his status as legitimate or not could be resolved once his mother is queen.
When it comes to Luke, I don't think it's fair to give him Driftmark, as his claim to it is non-existent for it would come from Laenor, who isn't his real dad.
I kinda hope that Aegon's marriage to Daenaera Velaryon will be connected to Vaemond and his fate somehow.
imagine if daenera ended up being Vaemond's daughter
The only "claim" Lucerys have is to Harrenhal and Dragonstone/the crown, but also we have to take into acccount that he was be WAY back into the line of succession(which is also debatable bcs he was a bastard!)
It's simple, if he doesn't have a blood ties to certain house he doesn't have a right to it, period. Saying otherwise it's ignoring all the laws of successions.
I mean wirh larys being accessory to murder and alicent probably not being too enthused about the dude being a creepy fucker , I could see her realistically selling him out and Harrenhal for a settlement
I'm kinda sad that they gave Corlys storyline to Viserys. They really are writing Rhaenyra and her 'allies' to be saints and the greens to be terrible.
Since when???
@@Pookie12396 I meant from the books. Corlys got sick and was thought to be dying, he was also like 70.
Viserys was just not interested in ruling, ate and drank a lot.
Despite making Alicent a little more sympathetic, the greens are still pretty hardcore as they were in the books.
No, if anything they've made them a lot more sympathetic, Alicent and Aemond especially.
I just hate when the show tries so hard to make Rhaenira, Daemon and the blacks as a "good" side and the audience should relate to them. Honestly, the greens are the reason I was at some level invested. But the logic of Vizerys, Raynirah and Deamon is killing me. I don't understand rHaneera fans...
In the book, it was implied that Corlys was afraid to do anything because Vaemond’s five nephews confronted Viserys over Vaemond’s death and got their tongues cut out as a result. I just find it so jarring that Corlys didn’t seem to give a damn in the show.
I guessing the nephew-to-brother switch was made in the show because they decided to age Corlys down? in the book, he's older than Rhaenys' parents. I think they wanted to make Corlys and Rhaenys' marriage as healthy as possible, so making them vaguely the same age was part of that.
There is zero reason why house velaryon should support house black .
Baela and rhaena
@@Pookie12396 Betrothals can be broken and they're only suggested to save Rhaenyra's ass. Other stuff happen after Luke dies.
Besides his brothers and cousins, Corlys elevating Luke may even threaten the lives of his own sons Addam and alyn
And I wonder if GRRM just omitted this from F&B or if he sort of let his expectations of the story get ahead of him and therefore didn't incorporate it (i.e. he always knew Luke was going to die so he never really dug into what a huge issue this was for House Velaryon).
@@HillsAliveYT i also think most houses in the dance and their alligeance makes no sense , like to be fair , old town is the biggest rival of lannisport for trade and money and what not , and the lannister fleet would gain power if something happened to say the redwine fleet … so wouldn’t this put them against hightower and redwine
Your videos are so well thought out. The perfect compliment to the often deeply thought out stories GRRM creates. Thank you for another thought provoker!
Laenor recognized Luce and Jace as his legitimate children, which would have almost cemented their claim once Laenor was the lord. With Laenor gone Rhaenyra has no chance but to keep pushing for their inheritance if she wants to continue with her lies, which would be the natural thing to do if they were Velaryons. I hate the show decision to not have Laenor murdered by Daemon and Rhaenyra, they're just trying to water her down and make her more likeable, which is a mistake the GoT show made over and over. Either way, getting rid of Laenor is cutting a major thread that kept her world together and another short sighted decision Rhaenyra makes because she thinks being a queen means doing whatever she wants with no consequences.
I also was furious at that nonsensical Laenor plot. He was murdered at Daemon's connivance in the books and he should have been murdered in the show.
The show runners seem to go out of their way to whitewash the blacks and vilify the Greens to the point of making Aegon a rapist even though there was no evidence of that in the text.
Let's wait for Season 2 for Blood and Cheese, if they find some way to excuse, justify or even cut out the murder of Prince Jaehaerys at Daemon's connivance then that would be it for me.
I'd be so done with this show.
I mean, I think it's a hard thing to actually work through because the arguments about adoption or legitimacy might hold up in the real world, but given how often this has become a problem, GRRM clearly WANTS it to be a problem in the world that he has created. We can say "well they're legitimized because so and so treats them as legitimate" but given that the entire main series is kicked off because of Joffrey's illegitimacy despite the fact that he can't be proven illegitimate and despite the fact that Robert believed that Joffrey was his, it's obvious that whatever reasoning we can use as outside observers is not meant to be used within the context of the world itself.
I mean considering Corlys and the Velaryons meekly declare for Rhaenyra with "She is muh queen" in 1x10 EVEN after Corlys and Rhaenys believe Rhaenyra and Daemon had their son murdered after making him claim 3 fake children who aren't really his blood, I wasn't surprised that he didn't care about Vaemond's death
So basically this man got killed bc he speaks the truth
Tragic
He was a fool
I don't entirely disagree- & in fact, I'll take it a step further: If Vaemond's death should have had an impact, then so should Joffrey Lonmouth's, *especially* as it occurs in-show - I get that the Lonmouths were not a *huge* house, & to be fair, we don't know (either show or books) if Joffrey was the heir, a younger son, or even of a minor branch of the family- BUT- it's stated that the Lonmouths *were* noble, & therefore this scandal, & the king's lack of action over it _should_ have enraged them, *&* other nobles- & even potentially the Baratheons, their overlords.
At least the book had realistically plausible deniability in the circumstances of _how_ he died - the show had no such thing; as him being **beaten to death, in **_public_** - at a pre-wedding celebration** was utterly undeniable- even if someone _could_ affect the excuse of something like him somehow being 'threatening' at some point, at least enough to have the Princess' previous Sworn Shield/ Kingsguard engage in a physical confrontation- there would no doubt _still_ be plenty of people ready to defend Joffrey- not least of which would be the GROOM, his 'closest friend' - their actual relationship aside, Laenor's testimony would be pretty compelling- even going up against a Kingsguard.
There was still plenty of drama in the book version of the event; the wedding actually goes off without a hitch- what's wrong with that? There is no need to make *every* ASoIaF wedding the Red Wedding, or Purple Wedding- & so, we pass into the post-wedding celebrations {& this is where they lost me; saying they didn't want to do another tournament because they'd already 'done' one - that's an outside world problem; the reigns of Jaehaerys & Viserys were pretty much the Targaryens at their height- their courts were a *constant* round of feasts, hunts, balls, & tourneys- people competing in the arts & in fashion, creating a very glamorous & lively environment - if it was an issue of cost, there were ways to simulate the bigger parts/ cut away from them- yes, that may come across as a copout- but as a tournament has already occurred, people can exercise their imagination & build on what they've already seen from the first one} - at this point, things appear well- even as there's a hint of drama; when Rhaenyra gives her favour to Harwin- some are scandalised, but it didn't seem to generate too much drama- as he was her Sworn Shield- & Laenor just laughs good-naturedly & gives something to Joffrey, in turn.
We don't necessarily have to see the actual clash/ choreographed fight (if they're aiming to save money/ 'repetition')- but we absolutely *should* see the aftermath; in some tent/ medical area- Joffrey an absolute ruin, that will soon die, & a busted up Harwin with several months' healing ahead of him, after Cole's wrecking of the two - a devastated Laenor, much as he was in the show, honestly- openly weeping over his partner's body- & maybe an enraged Rhaenyra, glaring fully in hatred at Cole (& maybe Alicent/ Otto, should they come to look).
Because Joffrey's death occurs within the realistic confines of a tourney in the book, the rage of any concerned individual would technically be blunted- **everyone** knows that tourney competitors run the risk of injury & death - *_that_* is what gives Cole his out: people die in tourneys- it's sad, but in the circumstances- it's something that can be written off as ill fortune, rather than the virtual murder of the ep, _without_ the need for the King or Queen to intervene or strongarm anyone.
In the show- the King does **nothing** in the aftermath of Joffrey's death (bar get Rhaenyra & Laenor actually married, shrinking the ceremony to something far smaller & intimate than it would have been)- & it truly comes across much worse...
They briefly have Cole _maybe_ going to commit suicide (out of guilt/ regret/ to escape what he fears the inevitable consequences will be), 'til Alicent stops him - & *_then_* we have that massive time-jump, & **nothing** appears to have happened- & more than that, it appears to have no impact; there's no real conversation/ commentary about what it meant for Laenor to have lost someone who mattered so much to him- in the fashion that he did, or Rhaenyra contemplating the inner rage that she never could have expected from Cole, while he was her shield, & briefly her lover- & even how the Kingsguard is for life, &/ or if he's still alive when she takes the throne- what it will be like for her consort to be anywhere near the guy- how they'll feel having him around their children. There's no statement on how even small characters' hatred, & actions could have political consequences (at least GoT managed _that_ for a time) - it makes no sense not to give it some development. It felt uncomfortably like later GoT- where there was next to no connective tissue, to previous seasons' events & character trajectories- hell, in s7 & 8, especially- it barely felt like episode events & character arcs felt connected to what came before...
This is another reason why I think HotD should have had 12-episode seasons, rather than continuing the 10 of s1-6 of GoT, & why the big time-jumps should have been slightly smaller- or at least halved - we needed breathing room between some of these beats, but not necessarily time-jumps. And if it was a case of not wanting the expense & issues of hiring another set of young actors- we didn't necessarily _need_ to see the kids, they could have been referenced, though.
I still don't entirely know how to feel, the more I think about it - like; it feels as if the show didn't really try/ want to integrate the politics *into* the drama- they seem more separate entities; 'action happens here' - 'political drama happens here'.
Who knows- maybe I'm wrong, but this was how I felt about it...
Edit: word
LOL well I assume that they altered Joffrey's death for time constraint and budgetary purposes, i.e. it's much easier to incorporate a plot point into a scene and set that you already have to shoot anyway, but I agree that it's an alteration that warrants actual narrative acknowledgement because the change really does make a difference to the story.
I’m interested to see what your take is on the show changing what happened at Aegon’s coronation. Keep up the good work!👍
There is already a video about that.
@@jjh2456 I meant the whole Rhaenys bursting out of the ground and killing a bunch of peasants.
I wished that instead of Rhaenys killing a bunch of people in the Dragonpit, Daemon instead tells her that Laenor is alive and has joined the Second Sons with his lover and this is what makes Rhaenys, Corlys, and House Velaryon join Rhaenerya.
All the mistakes Rhanyra is making, makes me see all the ways she could have made it less difficult for herself. Like including the Velaryons in her plans with Laenor. Is Corlys fond of Lucerys in the F&B? I don't remember.
Honestly the show acts like Rheanys, Corlys their kids and Veamond are the only members existing. Did Veamond not have several children? And they a mess of cousins. The most logical explanation would be for the angry Velaryons to join the greens
i can't with the image at 11:53. great vid as always!
Guaranteed the show-runners and the fans will dismiss this very important topic in exchange for more girl boss moments that will paint team black in a favorable way.
the way rhaena and baela's claims to driftmark are just completely ignored in the show
The way they're ignored period is pretty distasteful.
We need a Larys breakdown from you ASAP
Blacks: “Rhaenyra wouldn’t kill her half-siblings.”
She wouldn’t, but Daemon would, with or without her permission. He had no qualms, whatsoever.
I think what the show runners missed here is that in the books, the velaryons and the Targaryens are so closely related in not only looks but culture, remember, for centuries, both families married into each other. The show runners making the creative decision to portray house velaryon as mainly black skin toned I think presents a observational difference for viewers of the show to see a difference in both families looks. But in reality, (in the books) the skin toned difference doesn’t exist so readers don’t see the huge difference between both claims of both houses. Just my take. I think the actors did a great job nonetheless. Both corlys and vaemond and the children and baela even. All perfect portrayals. Just something I see with the show.
In all actuality, they’re the same family. I commend the show runners for seeing past skin tone for it. I just see viewers of the show to see unimportant differences between house T and house V when they are so similar
So the decisions Corlys and Rhaenys make doesn't make sense in F&B?
Its a mystery why the couple married in the first place rather than Rhaenys marrying Viserys and solving any potential succession crises before they happened (was Aemon really supportive of the match, and Rhaenys figured that when her father was king, he would be very supportive of her as heir? Was Corlys so rich that he forced the marriage alliance? Was Corlys so awesome next to lame Viserys, so Rhaenys followed her heart?) Why did they back down when Baelon and later Viserys were named heir (they just didn't want to war against Jaehaerys? After 101, they thought most of the realm was against them?) Why attack the Stepstones (why aren't others like Braavos getting involved if the triarchs' tolls are so high? why ally with Daemon? Why never use Rhaenys and her dragon in the war?) Why support Rhaenyra after her kids are born with questionable parentage? Why support Rhaenyra and Daemon after it sure seems like they killed Laenor? Why go to war in support of Rhaenyra, when they didn't go to war 30 years earlier for their own claim?
When I read that, I'm forced to assume that a) GRRM was being lazy, and didn't put much thought into some of the plot points, or b) the narrative as presented is false and misleading (maybe Rhaenyra's kids being illegitimate is just Green propaganda, and isn't actually based on anything. maybe Corlys and Rhaenys have very good reason to believe Rhaenyra and Daemon weren't involved in Laenor's death). The HotD writers seem to recognize that Rhaenys and Corlys are confusing, contradictory characters in the book, and their solution is to give them a lot of scenes alone together where they talk it out? try as they might, it doesn't resolve the inconsistencies with their characters...
I've made myself all of those questions too. There are way too many plot holes to be a coincidence, untrustworthy narrative or not.
Like for example why did Rhaenyra have any allies whatsoever? The Starks are understandable, but the rest? She made no efforts, she insulted many lords, she didn't select ladies in waiting, she made no alliances, she married her sons to a single house, married Daemon (I love him but he is unstable), is trying to put a bastard as heir to two seats of power, and even alienated the Arryns by not making any effort to connect with them (Daemon also insulted the Vale so many times while married to Rhea, he even became a person non grata there. I don't think the Vale would be happy with him as King Consort). A rock had more diplomatic and political skills than her. So why the F would anyone want to fight for her? It makes no sense.
Mushroom is supposedly a Black supporter, and even from his perspective Rhaenyra seems like a horrible choice for Queen. It would make more sense if Mushroom added details that others didn't include because they were Greens. Or something like that.
I think Viserys & Rhaenys were married to their respective spouses by the time the first succession crisis came about, otherwise, I'd agree with you.
Also Rhaenys was only 18 & newly pregnant when her father died, I think; people didn't know if she'd survive the upcoming childbirth, or if her child would- whereas her uncle was older, & well respected & had two already born sons. The first passing over's forgivable, the second is a little questionable- but still coming from a place of practicality, rather than malice or misogyny; the late Baelon's got two already of-age sons (I think Viserys was 26 or something by the time of the second crisis)- the late Aemon has a daughter, an eight-year-old granddaughter, & a seven-year-old grandson.
There's also never been a precedent for a ruling Queen of all of Westeros (& prior to the Conquest, they were limited- for instance; there was never a recorded Queen of Winter/ Queen of the North [nor of the Iron Islands; if Yara/ Asha were eventually successful, she'll be the first Queen Regnant in their entire history]- Queens Marla Sunderland of the Three Sisters in the Vale, & Argella Durandon of the Stormlands were short-lived, regionally-based only, & borne through extremis, rather than as a natural allowance- & Sharra Arryn was only Regent for her son - *as always, the Dornish are the exception & not the rule- with their frequent Ruling Princesses, if a daughter is first born [Meria, during the Conquest- Arianne, in the current day- & the lords of the rest of Dorne follow suit- Allyria Dayne is regent for her nephew, Edric, because he's the only son of her elder brother- & there are numerous ruling lords or heirs that are women: House Allyrion, current ruler a woman - Blackmont, heir is a woman - Fowler, heir is a woman - Jordayne, heir a woman - Santagar, heir a woman - Toland, current ruler is a woman & so is the heir - that's 8 houses out of almost 30 known, if we include Allyria acting as her nephew's regent [to be fair, we also only know of **_some_** of the lords- & several don't have heirs listed]* ); Visenya was Queen Consort, & Queen Mother/ Dowager Queen- yes, Aegon & later Maegor gave her (& the late Rhaenys) a lot of trust & authority, but only as much as _they_ were willing to- & she was never a ruling queen in her own right, despite being older than Aegon.
Aenys' first-born child was Rhaena, but she doesn't appear to have been named heir- second child & eldest son Aegon was - she was married to Aegon & would have been his queen, had he not died before being crowned - she later became a queen of Maegor's, & the elder of her two daughters by Aegon became Maegor's heir- but clearly _only_ 'til he had a son, *&* as a means of disinheriting Jaehaerys, Aenys' 3rd & sole remaining son.
Rhaena later relinquished her claim to the throne to her younger brother (but she regretted it, apparently)- though her daughter was named Jaehaerys' heir, 'til he had his own children- which he rapidly did.
Come the Great Council of 101- there were initially some 14 claimants, including the 3 sons of Jaehaerys' only living child, Saera (Archmaester Vaegon was also the last of Jaehaerys' children, but he was bound to maester's vows & he has no known descendants, so technically, I'm not counting him)- interestingly, Saera never pushed _her own_ claim; which, as Jaehaerys' child, *would* have been superior to everyone else- as she was the closest blood he had- but she was happily settled in Essos.
The rest don't really matter in the scheme of things, & the other major claimants are exactly the same; Viserys (& technically, Daemon, as his brother) - Rhaenys & her two children; Rhaenys & Laena were eventually (though not automatically) dismissed on the basis of their gender - leaving Viserys & Laenor; a twenty-something grandchild of a younger son, & an underage child, the great-grandchild, of the first-born son.
Should Jaehaerys go with primogeniture- & he die _before_ Laenor come of age, that means a long regency- in the current GoT era there are *several* houses dealing with succession crises, & the risk of their houses dying out (few others, like House Frey have the slightly rarer problem of too many potential heirs); in addition, the Lannisters & Tyrells have been sticking their fingers in an awful lot of pies over the preceding years- each trying to get a monopoly on power, but mostly ramped up their ambitions thanks to the recent instability that the wars have created, & the former have a stake in *many* of the succession issues, either directly- like House Hayford & House Stark, or indirectly, like with House Rosby & House Stokeworth - Roose makes a point of saying that child-lords are the bane of any house- well, a child-monarch would *_magnify_* those problems {Aegon III's Regency & its' associated problems is still in the future, in the HotD timeline...}. [[In GoT, the unaware Vale lords aren't overly worried about Littlefinger's schemes- which they don't know the depth of, because while Robert/ Sweetrobin- who Baelish has custody of- is young & sickly, his heir presumptive {who *they* are exerting influence over} is already of an age to rule- so should anything happen to Robert, they will push Harrold forward to the rest of the Vale lords as the rightful heir (which is _also_ why Littlefinger has arranged for Harry's guardian, Lady Waynwood to push for the betrothal to his niece/ bastard daughter (depending on show/ book) 'Alayne Stone' {Sansa} as a means of then gaining control over him).]]
More than that- should Laenor _predecease_ Jaehaerys, or die soon after him; the realm's in the same position as before, it's just taken slightly longer to get there.
The decision to exclude females, & female-line descendants maybe controversial- but it would probably change, should the succession stand in peril (as it does in the modern day). Females _can_ inherit lordships in Westeros, but like real world inheritance- they were *after* male-line descendants, & before legitimized bastards & adoptive children.
I think personally, part of the problem- in terms of the show, at least visually- is that they don't make them look any younger/ different- Viserys looks the same _years_ after the prologue, down to the same length hair, & the damn stubble - there's no clarity over which has the better claim, in blood terms- they simplified it to gender alone, & that *wasn't* the only argument.
Also, I personally think it was a lazy choice to give Rhaenys fully silver hair, instead of her proper Baratheon black, with maybe a wide silver streak (as she did have white strands as she aged)- they already say in the opening scene that she's Targaryen; do they think the audience that stupid that we wouldn't get her heritage, even with the expository dialogue...?
The rest...? There's no easy answer, imo...
@@OcarinaSapphr- I largely agree with you.
F&B pushes the narrative that a succession crisis was inevitable because Jaehaerys had too many kids. But, if that were true, why didn't people see the iceberg impending and marry Meleys-Rhaenys and Viserys, before the death of Aemon?
With the pregnancy of Meleys-Rhaenys... why didn't Jaehaerys wait until its outcome to choose his heir - it would only have been a few extra months. He waited several years before naming Aemon heir at age 7.
With targaryen claimants, the only woman with a roughly equivalent claim as Meleys-Rhaenys was Aerea (the others have brothers, and brothers always come before sisters, except in Dorne. Dreamfyre-Rhaena had a case to be made Aerea's regent, though.). In Aerea's case, since she was super young and a hostage of Maegor when rebels starting declaring Jaehaerys king, that probably had a lot to do with the rebels' decision to support Jaehaerys, rather than Aerea. Those same schemers did support putting Aerea on the throne later when Jaehaerys defied them.
As far as female queens, their was a case with the Lannisters, though in that case her husband Joffrey Lydden changed his name to Lannister and ruled in her stead. So I guess there's precedent for King Corlys? He was older and more experienced than Aemon or Baelon or any of their descendents; the only thing he lacked was a dragon.
For female rulers in the time of HotD, the easy examples are Jeyen Arryn and Rhea Rhoyce. Both have male cousins with Arryn and Rhoyce surnames, but its the ladies who rule cuz they have no brothers, and their fathers' children come before his siblings and their children in succession.
I feel like House of the Dragon exacerbated the many flaws already present in GRRM's writing of the Dance
i think one of the big problems is people thinking the Dance is alot deeper than just a war over the throne with dragons
If Daemon can kill Vaemond, then no one should complain. When Cristian Cole kills in defense of the Greens, the blacks are just as bad as the greens
To be fair, Martin does point out Baela and Rhaena, not Vaemond, are the rightful heirs to Driftmark. So Luke would be the rightful heir to Driftmark by marriage. However, this does lead to a plot hole: why did the proud Corlys put up with his son being cuckolded? Personally, I would have established the betrothal much earlier, as a bribe to keep Corlys quiet.
Honestly curious, when did he claim that? Because Baela and Rhaena are Targaryens, and Laena was never named heir (which would give her daughters the right to inherit and bare the Velaryon name once they assumed their title, kinda like with Jace who would've changed from Velaryon to Targaryen if he had made it out to King).
By law, sadly, those girls have no rights to Driftmark.
@@notyourproblem474 In Fire and Blood, when talking about Vaemond, Martin makes this point. What he says specifically is that Vaemond is a hypocrite. If Jace and Luke were bastards, the rightful heir to Driftmark would be Baela. Since Laenor had no sons, his inheritance would pass to his sister Laena. (Daughters before Uncles). Since Laena is dead, her inheritance would pass to her daughters Baela and Rhaena. Since Luke was marrying Rhaena anyway, there was no need to name her a Velaryon.
@@notyourproblem474 What are you saying they have no right? They have every right. Westerosi succession follows the Semi-Salic Rule of Primogeniture, meaning a lord's sons comes before the lord's daughters, but a lords's daughter and their heirs comes before the lord's brother. It is a widely known fact. The funny thing is, Vaemond is claiming a throne that was never his in the first place.
@@mr.googoopants3581
Exactly- it's already established in this earlier time, & well and truly cemented in the present GoT timeline, as seen predominantly with Alys Karstark (there are even more examples in the books)- she's the heir of her brother, Harrion (Harry)- who's currently a prisoner of war - the other claimants are of a lesser line; she's the *only* heir of the senior line- therefore, she inherits first. It's why one of them is aiming to force her into marriage- **because** _she's_ the legitimate heir (same could be argued for the fAegon/ Dany plan).
This is accurate for Vaemond, & any of his children, or other relations to Corlys- they *all* go behind **the senior line** .
Baela & Rhaena are first in line to inherit- Corlys could easily augment the arrangement he made with Viserys, for Jace to adopt the Targaryen name on accession, despite being born a 'Velaryon'- into something similar, & 'adopt' the girls- making them Velaryon in name, as well as blood; therefore, Luke would be 'inheriting' by marriage, as much as by blood- but his wife, as the child of the elder child of Corlys, that makes *her* the senior heir.
I mean, didn't Otto/ BookAlicent argue for joining the claims of Rhaenyra & _Aegon_ through marriage - & in the show, Rhaenyra joins with Daemon (who has always had a claim of some kind to the throne), to strengthen her own position - how can anyone argue it's ok for one, but not others...?
Despite the scene where they're acting like the name-change thing was some big, unprecedented deal- it _has_ happened before, with multiple houses- & is even being discussed in the present-GoT timeline, with Houses Tallhart & Hornwood -- I doubt it would bother Daemon; his focus is on making/ keeping alliances, in order to stand against the Greens- if his daughters taking their mothers' name in an official capacity seals that alliance, so be it...
Hi Hilla! Why is there no amazing font on the thumbnail?? I almost missed the Video! Its really good, though! Amazing take!
Hmmm what? I have a regular thumbnail?
@@HillsAliveYT umm like the letters colors on the video! :3
@@HillsAliveYT wait wait, its there now! Srry nevermind!
This is exactly the same situation with Joffrey and Stannis and somehow everyone's against Vaemond you know the rightful heir?
I just assumed HotD solved this when Luke died... 😢 but I guess Joffrey takes Luke's place now as a potential Lord of Driftmark... so the problem is still there
To me, the race swap of characters broke this part of the story. In the book the Rhaenys has black hair, but produces a son with the standard Targeryn blonde hair. So anyone supporting the Strong boys as true born Velaroyns could explain away their dark hair as coming from their paternal grandmother. It makes the threats of Viserys for anyone who questions their parentage much more reasonable, rather than in the show where it is clear to everyone that he's just covering for his daughter.
You're right and should say so! Also, I think the Blacks are the heroes of this story, and whatever errors they make will be seen as correct and justified no matter what. I've more or less resigned myself to it since I'm going to keep watching the show.
Another great video, by the way!
He shouldve just waited til the king died and side with the greens and start a civil war in house valeryion to stake his claim, that wouldve been the smart move but the blatant disrespect the king did his house by naming a bastard its heir was too much to handle.
I the old adage "blood is thicker than water" is prominent in this scene.
Although I firmly believe that Vaemond was an idiot for publicly calling Luke's paternity into question when the were so many options he could've taken especially when he's stated goal was blood... I do agree the consequences of his death were handled poorly and this happens alot in this show LIKE DOES ANYONE REMEMBER LAENOR..... His death is probably the dumbest thing the show has ever done and makes Rhaenyra and Daemon seem like idiots... All his death does is cause more problems for them and they're reasoning for killing him is just stupid and unbelievable.... Rhaenyra claims that a marriage with Daemon would yield a better claim to the ironthrone like really Rhaenyra all he has is a dragon, Laenor has a dragon, fleet of ships and has relatives with dragons.....
Thinking back at the whole show team black are potrayed pretty poorly in this show
Rhaenyra has no agency and is a nothing character... She literally does nothing except have bastard children and unlike in the books does nothing to serment her claim to the throne and is constantly saved by the men in her life
Laenors whole character can just be summed up with "I'm gay!"
Rhaeneys and Corleys come off as a doormats
Daemon is more of a plot device than an actual character
yes agree, they just want to show Daemon being cool without it making sense.
Rhaenyra's children would be half white through their mother, and 1/4 white from their father. Where have we seen this before? I think Meghan and Harry's children fit that description. Corlys and Rhaenys's children should have looked more mixed, IMHO, so the parentage of their 3/4 white grandsons should have been questionable, not OBVIOUS.
That was one of the best scene when he got his head chop off😂
I really gotta say this: the fact the Valerians are black, but Rheyneras kids are milqtoast white........i mean come on! Its just such a nonsensical disconnect. Unless, its sonsupposed to be so blatantly obvious, and its an open conspiracy. Actually, as im typing this out, i really like this idea and have changed my mind entirely. Touche
Vaemond has a better claim that Lucerys. But is it better than his nieces? It's not clear to me what the succession rules are between a daughter and uncle. It's my understanding that the books don't offer a definitive answer. If Baela & Raena have a better claim, then it should have weakened Vaemond's claim because multiple members of his family are ahead of him, after Lucerys & Joffrey. The fact that it was never used as an argument either suggests that the show considers that uncles take precedent over daughters, or that they simply didn't want to explore those complications. That said, the uncertainty of inheritance between uncle and daughters is enough for Vameond to want to press his claim.
Thing is the daughters are Daemons puppets and obviously won't speak up against Rhaenyra's fraud. So Vaemond could not hope for their support even if he wanted to press Baela's claim. If Baela had the guts to speak up for her rights to Driftmark, I think Vaemond would have accepted it. But he would obviously never accept Luke's claim over his own.
@@pg1448 Are Baela & Raela under Daemon'd thumb in the books? I don't get that impression in the show. At the very least I see a division between the twins, with one being close to their grandmother Rhaenys, and the other closer to their father.
That said the fact that Raena sent a raven to her father to inform him about Vaemond's plans suggests a closeness too. But I wouldn't go as far as characterizing the twins as Daemond's puppets.
Also, unless Daemon explicitly revealed to them that Rhanyra admitted to him that her children with Laenor are bastards, they don't have any evidence. But yes, they could still make a claim for Driftmark if they desired to.
I am personally am not convicted that Vaemond would have supported Baela's claim if she was willing to speak against Rhaenyra for the Driftwood throne. Westeros is a very sexist, patriarchal society.
For me to be persuaded of that, I would have to see a closeness between Vaemond and his nieces, kind of like Asha Greyjoy and her uncle Rodrik Harlaw in ASOAIF.
@@Mic-Mak In the show Rhaena and Baela are reduced to passive side characters that have hardly any lines and essentially just go along with everything Daemon and Rhaenyra do, so I think it's fitting to call them their puppets. They have seemingly no problem surrendering their rightful inheritance to a clearly illegitimate strong boy and are content to be wed to these boys merely as consorts, all to legitimize their step-mothers fraud.
I think Vaemond was certainly ambitious and desired Driftmark for himself and his sons. But his primary grievance with Luke's claim, him not being a true Velaryon, would not apply to the girls. So if the illegitimacy of Luke was acknowledged and Baela's claim was put forward, I think Vaemond could not really do anything about it. By andal succession law the girls would come first. Like Sansa or Arya would have come before their uncle Benjen or Cersei came before Kevan Lannister. He would be disgruntled but I think he could accept that much easer than Luke inheriting.
Well, and this is one of the most interesting insights into Rhaenyra as well, because theoretically she could get mostly what she wants and avoid creating a super serious succession crisis by just arguing that Laena's daughters should inherit Driftmark and then marrying Luke into the family, thus making him the lord without forcing the illegitimacy issue. Rhaenyra's argument for Luke ensures that she has absolute power over the Velaryons and Driftmark, but it also heightens the danger of the situation for everyone.
@@HillsAliveYT isn’t the idea might makes right , like legality means shit I’ve real power,
In the end, Vaemond gets the last laugh cause his granddaughter ends up marrying Aegon 3 anyway, of course how it happens is well...really dubious all because of Unwin Peake and his ambitions.
As long as Balea, Rhaena, Laenor, and possibly Rhaenys are on Rhaenyra's side, would any remaining Velaryon who'd want to make a claim to the Driftwood throne have a chance, given that the former are dragon riders? I guess only if they side with the Greens. It would be pretty crazy if opposing faction of the Velaryon family go to war against each other.
Actually it’s kind of what happened in f&b, the silent five sided with the greens
God the iron throne aside Luke has no business being the lord of Driftmark he’s the bastard of Harwin not a drop of Velaryon blood in him (except for the amount in all Targaryen’s I suppose)
I hope they make the Silent Five Rhaenyra's fault.
I just hope they include the Silent Five period, but I'm not holding my breath there.
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah, sadly it's hard to guess. I think having Rhaenyra as the one ordering their tongues out could be a good character introduction in Season 2, since she's supposed to be now a much darker character after the death of her child.
Well, now that Luke is no longer alive, this succession issue can be immediately righted by choosing one of the girls or the next male heir. I never thought it was wise to give him the Driftwood Throne. Given that he wasn't a sea farer, it made more sense for him or Rhaenyra to replace him sooner. It did affect Rhae's credibility. I will say though, an acknowledged son is exactly that though. The fact that Laenor went to his "grave" recognizing him would normally be enough.
Learn how succesion works it will go to Joff and after that it will go to lord Corlys's bastard.
Sounds great 👍🏽
While I agree with a lot of your points, I think a huge thing that you overlooked was that Valaryon's, like the rest of Westeros except for Dorne, actually follow the rule that daughters DO come before brothers. It's only the Iron Throne that doesn’t (because the Old King was preferred over his older brother's daughters and a bunch of decisions that came after). That means that Laena, and her daughters, come before Vaemond. And Rhaenys and Corlys DO discuss it. In the book, the girls were engaged with Jace and Luke already. In the TV show, the girls were engaged during the disagreement. Either way, as the book itself acknowledged, Vaemond was actively ignoring the better claim of Baela and Rhaena in order to promote himself.
So, it's actually just as illegal for Vaemond and the other cousins to try what they did.
As for Valaryons losing Driftmark and their line being removed from the Driftwood Throne, it's actually a solved issue. Luke's future wife, Rhaena, has as much Valaryon blood as Luke would have had if he was actually Laenor's son. However, if Baela has inherited without the marriages to Luke and Jace, she would have been a Targaryen (since she's also Daemon's daughter). With Rhaena married to Luke and their children inheriting Driftmark, the children would be Valaryons by the blood of their mother and the name of their father.
Both Rhaenys and Corlys's concerns are addressed. Their great-grandchildren will inherit, with their blood and their name.
As for the rest of house Valaryon, they'd have to either break the law by dismissing the claims of Baela and Rhaena that supercede their's, or b else convince Baela to attack her twin sister and half-brother/cousin/step-brother/brother-in-law×2. Which is a hard sell when she would be the wife to the future king, and therefore would be fighting a war against family in order to get a demotion.
Granted, the Valaryons should and would be pissed about the mutilation and murdering happening to their folks. But in order to complain that it's not justified they'd have to 1) keep overlooking Baela and Rhaena 2) piss of Visyers some more 3) fuck around with a LOT of dragon riders, including Daemon who isn't just defending the rights of his wife's son and defending them against questions of illegitimacy but ALSO his daughters 4) fuck around with Rhaenys and Corlys, who have a dragon, and have decided that this arrangement works in their favor since their name and blood do actually inherit Driftmark (and puts their blood on the Iron Throne as well, because Luke inheriting Driftmark and marrying Rhaena ALSO means a match with Jace and Baela that will lead to their future kids being on the Iron Throne)
Having said all that - I recognize one other major factor. I have been talking about Rhaena and Baela as objects whose blood and inheritance can be moved about. But the truth is, both girls are powerful individuals with strong opinions of their own. One has a dragon. The other could get one by hatching (like her sister) or claiming (like her mother and grandmother). They chose their step/half-brother/fiancés in this war, making them Blacks. They themselves would both defend their husband's, their future children's, AND their own claims. Rhaenys saw that, and the girls made SURE she did in that scene. Corlys and Rhaenys wouldn't stop them since they would rather their own line inherit than cousins/nephews. No one else in the Valaryon family would stop them since the lack of right to question them and the literal devastation a dragon rider (potentially two) and wreck on them even without the support of the rest of their family is unimaginable.
Nonplussed 11:55 means so surprised and confused that one is unsure how to react. Somehow Americans use it to mean *exactly the opposite* of it.
Good points throughout, though.