The Game Of Thrones Scene That Completely Changed Arya Stark From A Song Of Ice And Fire
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
- Arya Stark is undoubtedly one of the best characters in Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire. But how did on altered scene seemingly completely change who Arya was as a character?
Content Of This Video:
00:00 Introduction
00:33 Arya Stark's Gender Non-Conformity
02:39 Arya's POV On Equality In ASOIAF
03:31 GoT's "Cool Girl" Female Character Problem
04:36 The Scene Switch That Changed Arya Stark
06:00 Arya's Conversation With Tywin & Why It Matters
07:54 Chiswyck Says Everything About Arya As A Character
12:09 Conclusion
Fanart used in this video:
64.media.tumblr.com/e6b2daa46...
www.deviantart.com/borjapinda... 
Развлечения
"The show writers drastically misunderstood the point." is basically the core of all the problems with the show sadly.
Hey I think show was great and it is not like show misunderstood the character they made an interpretation of it.
@@mrintrovert5068 they literally didn't need to tho when they had it already there 😑
I don't think they've misunderstood so much but they had to take shortcuts to adapt on screen with the time they had... That's just my point of view
Ughh. Worse. They got it, but didn't honor it.
Particularly telling about Arya views of women is her time in Bravos. There’s she constantly working with women, making friends with them, not judging their works, she say how the women at some of the brothel are really good peoples for example. She’s probably the only person in the book series with a good opinion of sex workers. That’s telling.
It's not quite that she has a 'good opinion'. She just sees them as people like any other, and is non-judgemental. Neutrality is different from the pro-sex work position that the 'good opinion' phrasing suggests.
Pro sex work is just that sex work is work. It's a way some women choose to earn a living. It's not something that someone should beaten, raped, killed, thrown in jail, or lose their housing over.
@@angellover02171 This phrasing dosent make sense. 'Pro-Sex work' = 'Sex work is work'. Nonsense. I think working in a sweat shop is work. Does that mean I'm 'pro sweat-shop'. No. Acknowledging something is work is completely neutral. The 'Pro' or 'Anti' prefixes denote approval and encouragement or disapproval and discouragement.
@@umwha the sex workers rights movement has been around since the 70's but go off on the terminology made by sex workers
@@angellover02171 People have always seen sex work as work. That's why sex workers have always been paid MONEY (or equivalents), even in ancient times. Acknowledging that sex work is work is not new. But, being 'pro-sex work' - the idea that sex work is LEGITIMATE, VALID, and FINE, is new, becoming a notable position in the 70s.
I am choosing to use more precise vocabulary. I acknowledge sex work is work. However, I don't think it's good. I think it's actually closer to being bad - for most of the people connected to it. So, am I 'pro-sex work'?
Arya defended Cersei when Jon said Robert (who was the king at the time) was more important than her. Arya is an all women kinda girl. At least they got that right about Brienne
Yeah they mostly got it right with Brienne even if they messed it up occasionally (i.e. when she told Jaime that he sounded like a bloody woman). Unfortunately the show just had a baked in misogyny that seemed to negatively affect everything.
@@HillsAliveYT On the other hand, highly misogynist societies like Westeros have a way to let their cultural biases seep into the minds of even those who want to resist these biases, and no one can be 100% consistent all the time with their ideals when they go against their entire cultural upbringing. That doesn't _excuse_ anything, of course, but it is simply a fact that we all have weak moments. Brienne saying something like "you sound like a bloody woman!" in a weak moment (and possibly regretting it later) doesn't sound too unbelievable imo. Even Arya saying "other girls are stupid" in a weak moment doesn't seem too implausible, we know she already thinks of Sansa as at least a bit silly because of her "girliness". But to reiterate this: Only in a weak moment. It wouldn't be an expression of their genuinely held opinions, let alone their personalities and outlooks.
@@HillsAliveYT How did they get it right with Brienne? They added misogynist comments to her, increased her violence x10 and removed All issues relating to sex role .
@@umwha She did say they messed it up occasionally 🤷🏻♀️
Biggest difference between Book and Show Arya:
Show: presumably bad ass killer/fighter who is a hero with no actual story whatsoever and ends up killing the enemy she had never interacted with before
Book: a traumatised war child trying to survive becoming psychotic yet somehow still being quite remarkable
She is mature and amazing manly girl in show, who has transformed by her social interaction with other girl as they total humiliated her because of her looks that’s the show arya not what ever you are saying
@@mrintrovert5068 no its not, maybe the first few season but not the last ones, definitely not the last season
She's a Mary Sue in both mediums.
Arya is one of the few characters in the got universe who is largely driven by ethics - for her a servant boy deserves justice as much as her own father does.. this is incredible and what makes her stand out. even when she joins faceless men, she is unable to execute an order to assassin a person who seems to be innocent and nice. a rare piece of gem who doesn't justify her means by her end-goal.
The thing that does NOT make sense about Arya and Tywin being together at harrenhal is that: Tywin would know that after Neds excecution the Stark girls were meant to be captured - Sansa is still in KL, but Arya (Who everyone has seen, so they know what she looks like) escaped. Therefore, Tywin coming across a girl of the right age, with brown hair, grey eyes, who can read, and he can tell is highborn because of her accent - he would easily guess this was Arya.
Sorry but by your own description she's got the most generic features imaginable. The entire land is at war and there are plenty of minor lords and ladies whose lands and keeps have been sacked. Finding a noble born girl among the refugees isn't anything all that special. I agree to an extent that he might have wanted to check, but it's a ridiculous coincidence so who can blame him for thinking that such a thing is so unlikely it's not worth investigating.
@@IshtarNike Aryas canonical appearence is 'long faced', 'grey eyed', 'lusterless brown haired'. Corect me if im wrong but there isnt anyone with brown hair and grey eyes who isnt a stark. Theon specifically remembers Aryas grey eyes, and fears that Jeynes brown eyes might be enough for people to know shes NOT Arya. Secondly, even if those features were common in the North, theyre at Harrenhal, which is in the southern Riverlands, a whole realm away, and you have to go through the Neck. So a NOBLE northern girl would be very out of place - and add that Tywin specifically knows that Arya Stark escaped KL recently, he would definatley know. He's very perceptive.
@@umwha I like to give him the benefit of the doubt since he’s never seen Arya himself before. But I always found it odd that he never suspected, and brought her before somebody who HAD seen her before. Her face is meant to be very distinctive
I don't find it weird he didn't realise it was Arya, but I do find it weird he doesn't want to know who she is. If she is a noble lady, even if from a minor house, there's a possibility he could use her for his political advantage somehow.
@@IshtarNike
Well, its a LITTLE special. Even Minot Lords falling would've had their family spoken about somewhat. So why not ask her who her parents are, just so Tywin can double check if she's a Minor Lord's kid who was an ally of the Starks.
I think you missed the point when Tywin said that Arya reminded him of his daughter. He didn't mean that Arya was like Cersei in looking down on other women. Remember, Cersei has wanted the rights that Jaime takes for granted. She wants power, to learn how to fight like a man, to have the rights that males of her class take for granted. Arya and Cersei ARE alike when it comes to wanting to learn how to fight. That they could be more than simply obeying lord husbands, looking pretty and churning out one son after another.
Thank you, that's exactly what I had on mind
@Joshua Haines Exactly, and Cersei is indeed a mysogenist. She thinks as herself as superior to another woman, says rude things about the way they dress, their appearance and how they behave. She wanting to have the same right as man is only about herself. Not another woman. Is a very big red flag that the directors thought would be a good idea to compare Arya to Cersei
BINGO!!!!!
@@joshuahaines9611 Tywin Lannister is wicked smart. Remember he spotted she was a girl upon first meeting her. He is able to easily make that deduction.
Great video. I definitely would have added how many times she is also pitted against other women throughout the rest of the show. The fight between her and Sansa in season 7 was absolutely the worst thing for her character.
Thanks! And I completely agree. Like sure, she and Sansa didn't get along as children, but for their disagreement to be taken to that extreme was completely out of character for both of them.
I think that you can really see the differences between the Showrunners and Martin in the way they depicted Arya. George R R Martin is a life long feminist and A Song of Ice and Fire is full with feminist themes. He is quite savvy when it comes to feminism and I think that he just doesn't make Arya hate traditional women is part of this outlook, he is perfectly aware of the whole baggage of internalized misoginy and treats it seriously, this is why its a theme in Cerseis story instead and one of her core character flaws ( though Cersei is complicated and her PoV creats the possibility that she may be transgender but incapable of escaping the feminine role she was assigned at birth).
The Showrunners on the other hand don't seem that savvy of Martins feminist themes and only seem to catch on the most superficial aspects of them. They value Arya not as a character who opposes traditional gender roles, they see her as the cool girl who is into swords and stuff and therefore she naturally hates the girly girls because they are lame. Its a pretty immature and dudebro perspective. And I think its quite telling in that regard, that they ommited Satin from the Show, who is actually quite an interesting character because his interactions with Jon are quite reminiscent of Jon and Arya, him being a gender non-conforming man who'se transformation includes him learning to be strong by Jon while not abandoning typically feminine interests, And naturally they ommit him from the Show, because his entire character hints at the possibility of Jon Snow himself possibly being bisexual, he displays attraction towards Satin in most of their shared scenes, which dudebros wouldn't be comfortable with.
The reunion between the sisters should have been much better. If I had the talent I would write a fanfiction of Arya pestering Sansa to retell the story of the Purple Wedding. 💙 And Sansa doing the same to Arya about destroying house frey.
@@shizachan8421 Jon snow isn't bi you melon
That thing about the letter was the most stupid plotline ever. Everyone knew that those were the queen's words and not Sansa's, it's literally the first thing out of Cat's mouth. I doubt anybody would have held that against her. If they can forgive Northern houses for siding with the Boltons against the Starks then they can forgive a young girl for being forced to write a letter in the hopes of saving her father. It's like the showrunners were doing the same thing as the viewers, painting Sansa as that stupid girl that wanted to marry the prince so much she betrayed her family when that is just not what happened.
I've always liked the way Arya sees people as people first, place in social hierarchy distantly second. From her friendship with a butcher's son to her time in Braavos slumming with the poorer people of the city, she tries to see past the surface image that people project.
Good video. I'm so tired of seeing the 'girl that is not like other girls (and therefore have value)' trope. It is amazing how many people still see this as a compliment without realizing how backhanded it is. I think that Arya was just reacting on the whole abuse of the family , the girl, her brother, the father
They also got her fighting style wrong. In the books assassins kill by stealth. Instead they made her 'Arya, super commando' as I like to call her.
To be fair, Ayra leaves the order, just as Jaqen did. Her fighting style is because Syrio trained her.
@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 It's not a good enough excuse. She can be highly skilled with a sword but that doesn't mean she can take down anyone and everyone. Her fight with Brienne is ridiculous. Rapiers are for gentlemanly fights without proper armour. A rapier Vs broadsword is a joke and it would get batted aside with ease. Syrio himself gets killed because he's up against a bunch of knights and guards in armour. It's not his kind of fighting.
@@IshtarNike the question wasn’t realism it was whether or not Ayra’s fighting style is different from the books, it’s not.
Syrio aka Jaqen aka Aegon Targaryen aka the current Aegon Targaryen the younger was able to take out around ?3-5? guys in armor until the Kingsguard with the helmet and that wasn’t with a rapier, it was with a wooden lead filled training sword.
Syrio died before book 1, Jaqen simply surrendered and is still very much alive, until Arya kills him when Aegon(Jon) fights his older middle child brother Aegon(Jaqen) around two thirds into the last book.
Jaqen’s story is riffing off of “Count of Monty Cristo” ,Man in the Iron Mask, and Three Musketeers; it’s one of the reasons it’s for certain Ayra will fight like that . Brienne’s fight is mimicking Gregor vs Ayra as well as Nightking ?3? aka Jaqen [1 original “longbeard” Nightking, 2 Coldhand (killed by Sam/Jon), 3 Jaqen (killed by Ayra/Jon), 4 Jon (heads North to be his daughter (or niece’s) Nightking].
Ayra going under the legs switching hands for the dagger (losing an arm in the books) are all foreshadowed, for example Ayra traveling under the Titan of Bravos or Ayra’s hand getting hit by Syrio.
@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 what are you smoking
@@logancarlile8895 nothing actually
Thoughtful analysis. This really sounds like D&D fell into the "women written by men" trope, but with a peculiar girlboss twist, where as George made an empowering character as a character first. This channel is a hidden gem; may it become a discovered gem!
D&D decided to downplay all fantasy magic aspects os ASOIF, forgetting that she´s a warg too, and that the faceless men´s capabilities are mainly based on magic.
The entire scenes with Arya and Tywin are amazing. So amazing that George stated he wished he thought about it. But we could have done without 'All girls are idiots' line
Could replace with "most is not all". Still sound somehow bratty, but much better to her viewing
that part was still redeemable,they could've easily retconned it by saying arya like many other gnc even non gnc girls had an internalised misogyny phase which she recognised as she grew up
source? i swear yall be lying and for what
Why did it hurt ur feelings
@@bilis2866 just search up: arya stark “most girls are idiots” on here, it should be the first video.
You put into words really well the issue of the difference between Book Arya and Show Arya. The show really did miss the equality that Arya views people with
Yeah, and I feel like the fact that they took Arya's unusually equitable POV and interpreted it as "Arya hates women" really says a lot and explains a lot about the show.
@@HillsAliveYT It also lowkey says a lot about the writers and their views on women or how "strong female characters" should be written 🙄. It's also very simplistic character writing
@@breezy3392 Yeah, they definitely had exactly one female character archetype that they really loved and made every female character into that archetype. I know I've said it in at least one video, but by the end of the show you honestly could have given every main female character's lines to another female character, and in 95% of the instances it wouldn't have changed anything and no one would have known the difference.
They destroyed her as a character. During the first seasons they just showed hints of their missinterpretation of Arya. We had to wait until season 5 to see the complete incompetence of those two showrunners. I haven't seen the series since it aired, but I remember having problems with the characterization of Arya, specially with the way of how she commited the muerders, specificatly with the murder of Polliver, too cold and in control, when in fact she was a traumatized kid full of anger. Even the murder of Meryn Trant was excesive, and besides they made him a pedo just to justify the torture that Arya made him suffer. And in the last seasons, the way she acted, it was too cringe.
Yeah I had a huge problem with that as well, they just made Arya into a badass ninja assassin instead of treating her like a traumatized child who is acting out in a horrific manner because of it, it definitely seemed like another example of the show completely missing the point of what was actually happening.
While I agree that they butchered her character, her killing of Meryn is pretty close to what happens in the Mercy chapter that was pre released from Winds of Winter.
It's definitely not as brutal, but it's very cold & calculated
@@HillsAliveYT I think its actually quite wild how the showrunners could miss the complexities of Arya in the book, considering how intensily her PoV deals with depression and dissociation.
@@MissSeaShell She punctured the femoral and the guy was gone in seconds in Mercy. Arya straight butchered Trant in that scene. Arya is a killer and she clearly enjoy the power she have but what she did to Trant in the show was straight Ramsey lmao
There's no doubt that some women in Westeros suffer from internalized misogyny, Cersei being the most obvious one. But I never got that impression from Arya or Brienne, which is why it was always so jarring to me to see them display such blatant contempt for their own gender. You've brilliantly demonstrated what the problem was with show Arya. For Brienne, the moment that shocked me was when she told Jaime he sounds like a bloody girl after he got his hand chopped off. 😳🙃
I mean how can you not hate your gender when in the universe they are in, they're not allowed nor supported to have interests outside looking pretty and being available to fuck at all times and produce heirs. I think I would be Arya too.
@@meiru2453 Yes, to some degree, it's understandable why some women would learn to hate themselves in Westerosi society. It's sad.
3:50
"It's obvious that the show has a very narrow perception of what a strong female character actually is."
You got me right there.
I'll take for example Sigourney Weaver, or Helen Ripley in Alien 1. There is this one scene where she talks about quarantine rules and finally Ash over-rides and open the door. What does she do ? She goes to confront him later in a scene thus making her a strong character not because she's female, but because of her actions and her words. It's earned.
I'm all in for strong female characters but when it's done the "female-empowerment" way, it sometimes just doesn't seems right.
Like Cersei, Daenerys, Arya and Sansa; all strong, independent womens almost all at the same time ? It feels like Hollywood all over again with no real justification, just being a bad-ass persona because some people will like it.
Yes completely agreed! I know I mentioned it in some other video, but one of the weirdest aspects of GoT towards the end is that aside from Brienne, the female characters are essentially indistinguishable from one another. Dany, Arya, Sansa, and Cersei all dress the same, talk the same, have similar facial expressions, body language, they've basically all blurred into this blank "badass cool girl" template to the point where you could genuinely switch out one character for another in almost every scene and you wouldn't even know the difference or have to change anything to suit the individual characters themselves. It was extremely disappointing and bizarre.
@@HillsAliveYT D&D being lazy and lacking nuance
As far as I know Ripley was written as a male character originally but then the role was given to a woman. This explains why she's so realistic, men tend to write women in a really artificial and unrelatable way, look at D+D commenting how "Sansa was envious of Dany because she's so pretty", two adult women faced with the literal zombie apocalypse, seriously.
There's surely a major difference between book Arya and show Arya. I also think it helps to remember that GRRM was playing around with fantasy and literacy tropes in the series. Arya embodies that "not a lady" trope, however instead of being strongly "not like other girls" she's really just people-person and is more driven by justice than this need to differentiate herself from other women. Because Westerosi society is so hype fixated on women either being "ladies" or "whores", Arya has to be very headstrong if she wants to make a point of differentiating herself. This is not a "live and let live" society, it's a "the nail that sticks out, gets hammered in" society. So in the books, when she has to make that point, it's not about looking down on women, but about asserting herself in her identity. In the show...well we all know what happens in the show.
Your vids have helped me appreciate how carefully and thoughtfully George writes his characters even more than I already did.
That scene lost me from the start, Lord Tywin would not have a discussion with a *mere server* , nor would Arya, who is trying to HIDE, engage with him beyond "yes mlord'.
i loved all her scenes with tywin except for that one line. her scenes with tywin are some of the best in the series. Maisie williams out-doing the doer Charles Dance was a sight to behold. it made me want a whole spinoff with tywin and arya and him being like "god i wish you were my kid! my kids suck!"
Can you dislike traditional femininity because it is limiting without disliking girls and women that are more feminine?
Not according to feminist while simultaneously liking girly things makes girls gender stereotypes slaves
That's the whole point of feminism
The creators of GOT had an amazing opportunity to dissect and subvert the ideas of gender & internalized misogyny through Arya, in the very patriarchal and misogynistic world of ASOIAF.
But alas..💔
You just said a whole lot of nonsense 🤣🤣🤣
@@josesesade5732 No, you just need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
This channel is a balm. I never put together the significance of replacing justice vs. Chiswyck with a condemnation of most girls. Thank you for the amazing content.
"Most girls are idiots," doesn't make Arya a real sexist.
Every person Arya meets might be trying to kill her, and she isn't usually going to stick around anywhere long enough to form relationships. So I read her travel interactions as hot takes. She was not old enough to have a solid identity when she was forced to develop one on her own, in dire circumstances. Instead of asking adults what they think about a topic, and receiving a sugar-coated response for youngins, Arya takes the tried and true approach of the internet: be confidently wrong and wait for somebody to correct you.
Of course she thinks feminine girls are stupid as a 12-year-old! In her head, they're all (at best) like her view of her only sister in season 1: praised in good times, then victimized at the first opportunity. Sansa had begged their father to let her marry the boy who ended up killing him. She couldn't even save her own dire wolf. Even Arya's father had had a contingent of loyal guards accompany him to King's Landing, for all the good that did. What kind of person would choose to entrust their own bodily security to others, and stitch embroidery every day, just because it was "expected." Someone stupid, as far as 12yo Arya was concerned.
Much of Arya's arc is rooted in agency. Men in her society are expected to have agency; to formulate goals and strive for them. Women are expected to form and strive for subordinate goals of their own, but by the time we meet young Arya in the show, she has already rejected traditional signifiers of feminine success. Meanwhile, people start actively trying to kill her and her family. Suddenly, that instinctive pull towards self-defense she's always felt, strikes her as every human's natural inheritance: the ability and responsibility to protect themselves. In upper-class Westeros, this is distinctly not a feminine perspective.
Good analysis
Alt Shift X gave one of the best descriptions for Cersei, as a female misogynist. It's strange that the show made Arya one too, where she was originally a counter to Cersei. Cersei jealously believes she lacks power, despite being queen, not having complete power merely because she lacks male genitalia and doesn't wield a sword, looking down on other women who handle subtler power. When Arya is at her lowest, she finds a way to mete out justice, right in the midst of Lannister armed forces. It's sad they removed Martin's feminine complexity from Arya, likening her instead to the brutish Cersei.
I would just quibble the idea that Arya has confusion or conflict about her 'gender identity'. She not once questions whether she is truly a male inside, and therefore needs to remove her womb. What she struggles with is societal gender ROLES (I would say sex roles).
you know gender non-conforming isnt a synonym for transgender? it is literally just going against what is expected of you based on gender whilst still identifying as your gender.
I don't think the Arya/Tywin scene is necessarily a bad one. Arya is 11 years old and chafes against the expectations put on by society because of her gender. It's an immature statement, to disparage other women for their kindness, their gentleness, their desire for a loving partner ... instead of the people and systems that abuse them. There's no reason why she couldn't come to a better understanding of and appreciation for other women as the show progressed and she got older - it's an experience that a lot of girls and women go through.
The problem is that the writers for GoT fundamentally agree with Arya here: Other girls *are* stupid. The only way to be a good woman is to be a cool sword fighter who must never aspire to power or actual social influence.
I missed the misogyny in the show. I saw her as a revenge-obsessed tomboy. I attributed certain quips in show to her chameleon social abilities. Though the show did appear to make her weirdly, universally condescending once she learned how to be a Faceless Man. I'm rewatching the show right now, so I'll look out for it a bit closer.
I enjoy your breakdowns. Thank you.
i am so happy i found your channel this is the exact type of analysis i look for when it comes to asoiaf fan content
Arya is the daughter of Catelyn Tully, one of the most intelligent and knowledgeable characters in the novels. But, the show undermined Catelyn’s intelligence and character as well.
Another great video! Thanks for sharing
Thanks!
Magnifique! Love the analysis, as always. And I love your ability to recognise that people have different perceptions of the story and the characters, and that you treat people's thoughts or ideas with respect, as evidenced in your responses in your comment threads. I wish your videos were nightly haha ☮️
P.S. I think they tried (perhaps subconsciously) to replace Chiswyck with Meryn 🤷♀️
Oh Jesus Christ, I think I periodically black out the horror that is Meryn's death in the show because it's just so messed up and you just reminded me about it.
And thanks! Obviously, I love obsessing about the things that I enjoy but I also think fandom would be a lot better if everyone could chill tf out and remember that it's not that serious. And that it's extremely difficult to learn or allow your perspective to evolve if the only perspective that you actually want to look at is your own.
@@HillsAliveYT Haha don't worry, I literally didn't think about Trant until I'd posted the comment!. Though the thing with _him_ is that she wanted to kill him for years, way earlier than the pedophilic brothel sitch, so it's not a _full_ Chiswyk replacement. Who knows? Just one more thing to add to the "what is the literal meaning of this?" list RE GoT.
And what you said about people's perspectives is very on-point 🌞
@@made-line7627 just curious if you've read the pre-released winds of winter Arya chapter called Mercy? Meryn's death could definitely partially have been a substitution for Chiswyk's as well, & I had that thought listening to this video too. But it's also directly taken from the Mercy chapter. If you haven't read it I highly recommend you do! It's brutal but it's kinda one of my favorites from the whole series.
@@MissSeaShell Yeah I've read all the pre-released WOW chapters, and listened to Preston Jacobs' break-down and re-read of the WOW chapters a dozen times each haha. Love the Mercy chapter. Raff's death is pretty satisfying, but he's such a f*cking cringey rapist in the scene. I'm glad he gets his comeuppance. I do wonder if George will change anything important in the pre-released chapters when Winds actually comes out (and *please* let it be soon!).
Have you listened to the Preston chapter read-throughs?☮️
Lady Smallwood of Acorn Hall is such a minor character in the story but God I love her and what she means for Arya's story. I certainly wish the show had added more of these little scenes to humanize the surrounding world and the main characters
Honestly BookArya would have smacked ShowArya for saying such a thing about girls.
they did the same thing to brienne too! brienne's character in the book does not resent femininity but the one in the show for some reason does. it annoys me bc they have brienne in the show be more aggressive and male coded? like u can tell that d&d associates a "strong female character" with masculine traits bc they do the same to sansa and dany further into the show as well, the more powerful they get. but brienne annoys me the most bc in the books her character is so much more than that. brienne doesn't even kill anyone until affc and even that makes her cry. in fact in the first scene with brienne in asos she stops to show respect to the bodies of sex workers. brienne wants to be a girly girl but feels that she's not been allowed to bc of the way she looks. she doesn't hate women, she doesn't hate being a woman, she hates the disadvantages that come with being a women especially in her profession.
It always bothered me that late seasons Arya was portrayed as hero. She kills families bakes them in pies. She is xenophobic, obsessive and blood thirsty. All of that is fine for a character but when she kills someone and hero music starts playing I roll my eyes.
It bothered me as well because I feel like in the books it's obvious that she's a traumatized child and her behavior is not normal or okay. It's very odd that the show basically portrayed her becoming a serial killer as badass.
@@HillsAliveYT could you imagine if the show did the same thing with Jon. When he hangs Olly inspirational music plays and Jon smirks with satisfaction lol.
I believe it's quite obvious that D&D tried to mixed Arya with Lady Stone heart, which resulted in a complete mess because one is a dead woman whose only goal is revenge and another is a child soldier trying to understand her own trauma
Good points, and very true.
Thanks!
I haven’t watched the tv show in awhile, so I might not remember the full context; but…
Just because she says most women are idiots, doesn’t mean she thinks they would deserve mistreatment. Nevermind that it tends to be placed in misogyny’s corner that the assumption that women aren’t capable of defending or avenging themselves .
That being said, the book contains plenty of Ayra looking down on most women as idiots similar to Cercei, not just in the beginning as a lady of the court, but especially in the death march to Harrenhall, where she sees the girl as a sniveling cow or something like that. Although I agree Ayra’s book plot is about justice, she isn’t the one in the right, at least not yet. She had no sympathy for that girl whimpering, and doesn’t spare the life of the insurance salesman, who she was just supposed to observe (that will bankrupt the Tarth family).
Anyway, my point is that Ayra’s book plot does in fact contain similar misogyny and like Brienne isn’t the best example for modern behavior; of coarse fine, even exceptional, for the setting. Simply being the one to swing the sword (Starks), but to judge the accurately (Faceless Men, Stark distant cousins).
Well maybe I'm just not remembering the books accurately but I typically interpreted Arya's sexist thoughts or statements as a reflection of what she was hearing around her rather than something she actually thought herself, but that's the beauty of the books, they can be interpreted in an entirely different way by everyone who reads them.
@@HillsAliveYT I mean misinterpretation is a theme/function of ASOIAF. It’s written to trick and fool the reader with their own preconceptions. GRRM uses the “feminist doctor riddle” to fool most readers into wondering which Stark man stood for Ashara, never directly explaining that Stark men didn’t stand to a king (unlike Jaime) until it was their sister, who ironically was the one who stood for Ashara. ASOIAF is a nostop Bedchel test (Are you my Mother, Thoros?”) hence the Bechel reference, Tyrion can’t think of Septa Lemore’s identity because servants’ , like wet nurses, names usually aren’t recorded in history books. They get named thing like “Tanner’s wife” if at all; hence why the Tanner’s wife is Septa Lemore, Aegon’s wet nurse whose son was splattered on the wall maybe by Targaryen men rather than the Gregor.
Anyway don’t feel bad, GRRM is constantly trying to fool us and tell us the truth at the same time. Try and forgive Ayra, that setting doesn’t allow being raised correctly. As with Daenerys and even Brienne all are flawed; and maybe a little mercy for Cercei.
@@HillsAliveYT ...mr.master.ser is always so spot on and also dropping nuggets that lead down so many side tunnels. Though not so sure Lemore is "just" a tanner's wife as she says she needs to hide as well. And of course I think Lemore could be Shaena Targaryen.
In any case, really liked how you talked about Chiswyck and how he recounted the demeanor of the father "giving change" for.... well, whenever anyone says Tywin should have been first on the kill list we all know what justice actually demanded.
Here are two quotes I found on the Arya book topic and "girls" and identity......
"Harwin!" Squirming, she threw herself forward, trying to wrench free of Lem's iron grip. "It's me," she shouted, "Harwin, it's me, don't you know me, don't you?" The tears came, and she found herself weeping like a baby, just like some stupid little girl. "Harwin, it's me!"
Then they stole all the clothes that Lady Smallwood had given her and dressed her up like one of Sansa's dolls in linen and lace. But at least when they were done she got to go down and eat.
As she sat in the common room in her stupid girl clothes, Arya remembered what Syrio Forel had told her, the trick of looking and seeing what was there.
@@SeptaShaenasSapphires Yeah it's interesting how easily things can be interpreted differently by different eyes, because to me those quotes read like at first Arya is frustrated because she feels like she's being an immature child and that she's referring to herself as a stupid little girl, i.e. she is a girl and she feels stupid, not that she thinks all girls are stupid and she's acting like them. Similarly with the girl clothes, to me that didn't read as her hating girl clothes BECAUSE they're for girls, but because she doesn't understand why she has to wear certain clothes or why clothes are gendered to begin with. But maybe I'm giving Arya too much credit because of my expectations that she's not super judgmental based on superficial things!
@@SeptaShaenasSapphires so.. the answer to Tywin’s riddle “where do whores go” is from Shakespeare: a nunnery. Either an actual whorehouse or a nunnery with actual nuns (I hate being a guy , almost definitely mansplaining this; but it’s being overlooked so technically not mansplaining…right 🥺) example in this story “ Tower of Joy” (could be either, or in fact both). Women pregnant with a bastard, like Lyanna/Ashara/Septa Lemore, would go to either type to have the baby or if disowned by her family join the “sept” to have the baby raised in a church orphanage (like Morgan Le Fey).
So add this to Petyr’s mom and Sansa’s fake identity. Mix in Tyrion Tanner, the bastard made in behind the Tanner’s… Tanner’s…right?!! Sprinkle of Tyrion is not sure who is Septa Lemore and Varys saying Tanner’s wife… Tyrion Tanner. Pile on Bedchel ( I really wish a women was explaining this part especially), unnamed female characters… I should explain that more..
So in aaaaalot of fairytales, myths, legends, tv, and real history women don’t get named, also servants and peasants. Important to this case, Tyrion’s books only have Nobles named, rarely servants or squires; so when he searches his knowledge for names of women she could be he only could cite :Ashara (wrong eyes) or Lady Fancy-dress-not-important-to-this-story-conspiracy, he won’t think of wet nurse or the chambermaid unless she became notorious. This is the “Bedchel test” theme of ASOIAF and a painful irony that GRRM’s work can be called sexist, when in fact most of the themes are about empowering women just hidden in plot.
“Are you my Mother, (Thoros)” is a Bedchel book. Beric (the speaker) the lightning lord was at the tower of joy with Ned, yet unnamed to the reader, yet?!?! Riffing on the Tower Tarot card, he’s the lightning that brought it down. Either because he’s a Marcher lord, when his father was away, or was put in Storm’s End for safety; he witnessed Ashara’s crew (Ashara, baby Daenerys [probably born at Storm’s End], Rhaenys, and servants) trek between Storm’s End and Tower of Joy, since that’s his marcher lord’s territory and job. Keeping the secret of the Tower of Joy is why he had a betrothal to his house’s natural enemies (the other-side of the border his house guards) and why Ned honored him to kill Gregor.
Tangents right…
So compiled altogether… Septa Lemore was a Tanner’s wife, raped by the serial rapist near the tannery, kicked out by her husband though it was her fault, joined the sept (probably or was living there), hired to Elia as wet nurse (either just medieval culture “queens don’t breastfeed” or because Elia was sickly), her baby was exchanged for Aegon to escape, ?Targaryans men killed Tanner’s baby/fake Rhaenys? or maybe Mountain but I doubt that (Gregor didn’t remember killing a Princess/Queen?!?! I doubt it nor clever enough to lie about it or deny it, just confused), Septa Lemore by herself?!? with Aegon went to Illyio’s, time passed, the servants were called back to rightful king (not Viserys), and the “Fantastic Four” (orange beard Rolly, scientist Haldon, fiery haired Jon Con, and “the Invisible Woman” (Marvel and Bedchel allusion rolled into one) Septa Lemore/Tanner’s wife/Aegon’s wet nurse.
This all comes out in the next book. It’s a riff on Oedipus. “The slayer of lies” is from that. When Daenerys meets Aegon, the dragons will accept him, she be suspicious, Quaith and Jorah will tell her not to question it, she unfortunately persists (in this case), then her former servant will reveal themselves to her, reveal that Quaith actually Ashara is her mother, Daenerys is declared a bastard, the dragon eggs (and therefore the dragons) are declared Aegon’s not Daenerys, and Daenerys lover readers are filled with a great (not greatest, yet) disappointment. Sorry David Lightbringer…
obviously i have the best understanding of arya as a character because i somehow ended up ignoring all the right things to end up characterizing arya exactly how she is in the books after only watching the show
I really need to read the books,... this helps me want it more. I relate more to the book her. I too have an egalitarian view myself.
Oh you definitely should, they're not perfect but the show is like a basic sketch while the books are a watercolor painting, and an adaptation is always strange because it's essentially creating another point of view between the source material and the viewer, but in the case of GoT, I feel like the writers missed a lot of my favorite things about the books and the book characters.
I have been saying it forever; I actually liked (even if was initially annoyed by) book Arya. Show Arya is my least favorite version. She is Oft times misogynistic, fan-servicy (like Danaerys too), uncomplicated, and superhuman in a way our culture applauds and is ok with. To me, how the show made her DID make her seem like the other side of Cersie which she wasn’t supposed to be.
Even the “girl stuff icky” thoughts Arya could arguably have in the books can be chalked up to youth (she’s a literal kid-kid) and she grows out of them. I just…yeah. Hollywood or whatever we want to call it strikes again.
But seeing how they took away all the context to Sansa’s actions [which rendered them cunning or appropriate], pitted her against who they made fan favorites, and really played her plot around the “stupid little girl” line for 6 seasons, i knew I couldn’t expect much from them regarding the Starks in general, especially the sisters.
I don't think Arya felt inferior against traditional women, I feel that she had other qualities she wanted to explore that most women in that period weren't allowed to do, and that she didn't fit in that traditional mold. But in the rest of the review, I totally agree about how the showrunners misunderstood her character.
Thanks for the vid. The show wrote Ceresei so well. I don’t think I enjoyed watching a victimized villain take the screen so many times in a long time. But they did Arya, Sansa and Danny dirty.
This kind of misogyny pretends to be feminism and gets away with it too often. I really hate this surface level "feminism". Women don't have to act like sexist men to be strong. It bothers me even more in this case because Arya was great in the books.
What sucks is that those scenes between Tywin and Arya were so good otherwise and that one scene in particular could have very easily been perfect.
“Most girls like the beautiful maidens getting rescued”
“Most girls only get told about the pretty maidens being rescued. They don’t know that some maidens had swords and dragons and could rescue themselves”
I read the books before watching the show and I watched that season when I was 15 and that scene clanged in my head as odd. I didn’t like it but couldn’t figure out why. After a bit it occurred to me how strange it was that Arya reminded Tywin of Cersei when Cersei is an overtly traditionally fem woman who has always fit her gender role perfectly and her whole power comes from performing perfect femininity while Arya is someone who literally could not perform her gender role adequately no matter how hard she tried and while she was more successful at performing as androgynous than being a perfect lady, she also had no choice and was fighting for her life. We should have known then that Dan and Dave were going to fuck it all up.
You know for a long time (still am actually) I was left with a bitter taste for what they did to her character in the show... Just, they butchered it, they butchered it.
1:00 we see many women who are like Arya she even has female heroes she looks up to so what are you talking about?
Hmm I don’t think the most girls are idiots was meant to be taken so literally. Aria all has a sense of humor. Further, it’s not that far fetched since it’s imaginable that Sansa is somewhat reflective of what Cersei was like as a girl. And surely aria saying Sansa is an idiot is not so far fetched.
Yeah, I just saw it as an offhand remark as well. Because Tywin said that most girls were like that then she responded with a quip.
I don’t believe it was meant to be taken too seriously
I don't know... I really don't think she's a misogynist, I think she just became a fan favorite so they obviously focused on building her character over others. She also has more chapters in the series than all of the other female characters and even most of the male characters as well. I think it just came down to tiny pieces of bad writing that may shifted the tone where people may have misunderstood pieces of dialougue. Arya is a strong female character who doesn't put down any other female characters. Her and Brianne both are just tom boys who are more interested in combat and getting their hands dirty; where in Contrast to Sansa and Cersei who are also strong female characters that are Interested in traditional roles of noble women: strategizing and holding meetings in the council. Honestly If it's any female character whos misogynistic....it's probably Sansa who often judged and bullied arya in both the books with Jeyne Poole and the show, about getting dirty and wanting to play with swords. Or....maybe we shouldn't look so deep into one thing a character who is no more than 12 or 13 said and realize that she's going to have to say things in order to survive in such an unforgiving world. Especially one where every single person wants to kill her.
Cersei hated other women.
@@victoriawhite3662Cersei hated everyone except for Jaime and her kids lmao
@@JTMLifts Right these idiots have to make a big deal out of everything 🤣🤣🤣
Arya, is I think, resistant to the traditional feminine beyond feeling not up to the task. She always says something like "no, Daddy" when he says he'll find her a good hubby. She's highborn, and not ugly, (Brienne in the books is actually ugly, with a good soul) and she's a Stark - finding her a husband would be easy back when she's not an orphan, plain or not. But she does not want that.
I love your videos! You always me me understand what George R R Martin intented for the characters.
Overall, I think the analysis holds water. However, the problem might be more local. The producers and their writing staff are clearly at a huge disadvantage where they are plotting away from the source text. Creating dialogue off text is probably even more fraught since, as you note, a single statement like “girls are stupid” that is a huge datapoint when interpreting a character…it just might pass without proper consideration in that writing process.
However, much later, in GOT when Arya reunites with Jon he says something like “I could have used your help with Sansa…she thinks she is more intelligent than anyone else.” In the dialogue, Arya replies “Sansa is the most intelligent person I know.” That is a powerful line because several characters love or have loyalty to Sansa, to various extents, but few credit her with any kind of greatness beyond the undeniable observation that she is a survivor. Arya could (and does at other times) contradict Jon from basis of family loyalty…it would require only the simplest pivot in the exchange to a higher priority and in character for the Starks, in general.
In dialogue she directly contradicts Jon on her assessment of Sansa as intelligent…”the most intelligent person I know”…Arya isn’t given dialogue that is hyperbolic or metaphorical. Arya is, rather, more direct. She seems to say things as she sees them. Therefore, the most reasonable interpretation is, Arya sees Sansa as having that quality.
I think this is significant evidence against interpretation of Arya a misogynistic or reading into to producers a misunderstanding of Arya as her character. I think, overall, there is enough evidence there to argue that the producers of GOT understand the textual Arya.
The problem seems more obvious. The producers of GOT aren’t as consistent or precise in the artistic portrayal of any of the characters. All of them are a bit or more than a bit blurred and obscured in GOT…as you would expect. The show isn’t as good as the book; it is tautological.
As an aside, when Jenna Ortega said “I really needed to put my foot down and say Wednesday would never say this…even get unprofessional” my reaction was…you go, girl…absolutely. Can you expect a writing team to catch every line like the one you focus on “girls are stupid”…which, as you point out, can seem inconsequential but be quite not so. I don’t think so. You need to give the actor agency to read out that dialogue and, in their interpretation, try to sense is this me or not me? That won’t solve everything, either, but creating the space would provide another editorial check against inconsistent characterization getting into the final presentation.
Finally someone
I agree that lumping arya and tywin together was dumb for the show. But arya thinking most girls are idiots isn't mysogonist in of itself. In the books, arya doesn't like jeyne pool or Sansa, ie her examples for other girls. And in the books she doesn't explicitly say they're idiots, but one can extrapolate this based on her character. I'm hardly defending what the show did to the story, it's pretty terrible. But calling show arya a misogynist seems like a stretch
I never read the Tywin scene as Arya looking down on women, just that she said what she thought Tywin wanted to hear.
Arya Stark says "most girls are idiots" one time in an impulsive hyperbole and we get a 13 and a half minute long essay on why shes a mysogynist.
I think GRRM views on women are some what misogynist but the show writers… that is a whole other level, they use EVERY opportunity to make the show WAY more misogynist than the original
Good
Oh yes Arya in the books is totally different then the TV one we got...it was one of the biggest things I got annoyed about.
"that's not me"
? It wasn’t though. she didn’t identify with the gender roles she was expected to play out
@@senitoni I think that was what GRRM meant when he wrote that but, by the end, it was like Arya telling the audience that her character had been botched
Even if they wanted to leave out that character, they still could have created a scene to pretty much told us the same information. Perhaps with Tywin. Maybe rather than saying other girls are stupid, she could have told himself about wanting to make abusers pay or something. Anything other than what we got.
This overt misogyny is baked into almost all mainstream pop-cultural conceptions of feminism, to be fair I don't think Dan and Dave ever really had a chance of avoiding this. Even if they understood this kind of nuance, at all levels the notes and feedback they would be getting would undermine attempting to portray like the books.
Sure
I feel like this fundamentally misunderstands where the 'not like other girls' idea comes from. Just like with Arya as she is described here, it comes from a sense of inferiority of not measuring up to 'feminine' standards, not from some genuine idea of being better than other girls/women. As someone who went through my own 'not like other girls' phase this feels like such a willful misunderstanding and misinterpretation of what causes it and what our feelings are on other girls/women when we go through it. Even at my most stubborn non-conformity, I still had female friends and a story about brutal rape would have still gotten me pissed, disgusted, sad, and howling for justice if not revenge.
Please do better and don't be so derisive towards what is, at its core, mostly a teenage attitude brought on by how derisive western society is towards both the feminine AND those that don't measure up to it at the same time.
This is not just a got issue but Hollywood in general
I hate how Arya was telling Sansa shit in Winterfell for writing a letter to the Lannisters. I would like an analysis from you, and your opinion: Did she fall for Littlefingers trap? Because I think they dumbed her down and I hate how it took Bran to make Sansa and Arya see it from the same perspective again. From a storytelling drama standpoint I get that development, buildup, shock, resolution, yeah, but is it true to book Arya? :)
I'm a fan of your videos but I've got to vehemently disagree with you on this one. I feel you're reaching a bit by comparing Jaqen's first kill in the books vs in the series. In the tv series Arya asked Jaqen to kill the man torturing prisoners after a woman told Arya about how he killed her entire family.
And more importantly, in season 5 we see her killing Meryn Trant after witnessing his physical and sexual assaults on underage girls. That being said, I'm not a fan of how she turned out in the show. I liked the idea of her completely moving on from the stark identity and being a nameless, genderless, anonymous assassin.
No worries! No one is going to agree on everything all the time. For me it's just a particularly frustrating sticking point because I feel like Chiswyck is such a fantastic character building moment for Arya, so to have that erased and have a scene of Arya chumming it up with Tywin about how dumb most girls are really pissed me off.
It felt like Arya was playing a role meant for someone else in the later seasons
I don’t really remember her characterization being substantially contradictory to early thrones. I think calling her misogynistic is a stretch. I’m guessing that’s your marriage to your ideology showing.
Or maybe you just aren’t familiar enough with internalized misogyny or the book to notice these things? I’m not saying that to be rude. Sometimes we can be ignorant of these things. Because I certainly did, and it irked me a lot.
I think this current show gets it a lot better. Like, young Rhaenyra is very much a tomboy who prefers dragon riding to typical feminine activities. However, she doesn’t have any disdain for women who prefer more typically feminine activities. Ei, she respects women, whatever role they engage in.
I was a little surprised that Arya was such a favourite in the show. I haven’t read the books but it sound like he is a more rounded and likeable character in them. It gives the impression of someone who is only interested in people that think or are interested in the things they are. Which I find boring.
yep yep yep lol, very good. I totally agree.
❤
Based
Hard disagree. I’m not sure how you can watch the Tywin/Arya interactions and come away with this interpretation. Also this is the finest show invented plot line. It’s so good
Well, I love you channeled but I must disagree. Arya Stark is a child and saying other girls are stupid is a child's thing to say. I believe she just acting her age. And I believe she's projected her older sister who she's always compared to in her mind. In the show scene with Lord Tywin.
And a belief in her own superiority over children her own age. It's still a child's mentality. And I believe that is what's to try to convey in that scene.
The show made the right decision in joining the characters, but it could've been written better.
👍🏻
I always wonder how much better the show would have been if there had been at least ONE female show runner. Arya was one of my favorite characters and this is something I never considered (I also struggled to read the books because the show unfortunately put biases in my perception of what character's chapters i want to listen to). Her s*x scene was so stupid and made no sense, liie yo remind us "oh shes a girl btw"
This all does not mean that she is a Feminist!!
Assuming anyone pays attention to this post, I am sure it is going to be met with hate.
Let me start I think these videos are for the most part extremely well thought out, and open my eyes to point of views I did not consider. So I love them.
Second, I am not a fan of Arya, especially not in the show, and she got worst as the seasons went on.
Third, I am not in the business of defending the show, again especially as it got worst as the seasons went on.
Having said all that I feel it is unfair to characterize Arya as a misogynist because she says "most girls are stupid" I actually find this video frustrating because a running theme of these videos is how you can't take scenes or phrases out of context.
This is the content creator who says it is unfair to call Cat an evil step mother because she told Jon Snow he should have died. YES That happened, Cat told an innocent boy who never did anything to her or her family that he should have died and that's why the whole world hates her. But watching these videos I realize, wait, she was emotionally distressed and if you remove that ONE bad judgement moment out, she has been pretty much consistently at least as neutral as possible towards Jon. This video creator's argument is it is wrong to harshly judge a character because of one objectively dumb thing they said, at in a unique situation, while also ignoring the mountain of evidence that shows even if they said those words their actions prove they didn't mean it literally.
But then the same person makes a whole video not affording TV Arya the same level of thoughtful analyst. Arya did not say "Most girls are stupid" out of nowhere. She was given a set up "Most girls like songs and dresses" to which she responds "Most girls are stupid" (aka I'm not like them). Um... so what? How does saying that means she hates other women.
I really like base building and farming sims video games, instead of liking what I like most guys like FPS games, which I personally think are dumb and boring, if asked why I don't specifically like what other guys like I might say "yeah they're dumb for liking that" --- is that the most nuanced response? No, but it gets across I don't like that stuff, it still doesn't mean I would set a building on fire with a bunch of men in side, even if they do nothing but play shooter video games.
This video uses this one comment to make this HUGE leap about TV Arya. I kept waiting for the video to reference a line of dialog where Arya specifically says positive things about women liking dresses and songs. Because with out, all you have is TV Arya saying people who like stuff different than her her stupid to like those things. Absence of a negative isn't a positive.
So I don't think one off hand comment can be used to say how Ayra feels about women as a whole. ESPECIALLY if you're also going to conveniently ignore the several times she actively and specifically helps women. The number one example is being of season 7, Ayra murders the entire Frey family for the red wedding... but only the men. She bakes some in a pie, slits Walder's throat, and Poisons every male she can get her hands on... but she goes out of her way to spare the women. The show makes a point of showing her not letting the women drink the poison.
This is not the only example but it is from season 7 so there is no book parallel, it is the SHOW showing how much Arya values the lives of women.... that's super telling because that moment actual goes against Arya's stance on justice but reinforces how she feels about women. She kills all the Frey men because of the Red wedding, but Arya has no way of knowing if the Frey men were willing participants in the slaughter nor does she know if any of the Frey women were against it
In fact the Frey girls were the ones slighted by Rob, in theory, they could have whispered in Walder's ear to kill the Starks, while some of the Frey men told Walder to just stay out of it. Now do I believe that to be the case? 100% no. But the point is Arya doesn't know, she just kills the men and spears the women.
Again I am not the defending the show as a whole I just don't think this is a strong evidence for the claim.
And again I love these videos, even this one provides great insight... I just don't think it proves what it think it does.
TLDR: Arya said one dumb statement (same as her mother before her, must be a Tully trait), but if you take that away, TV Arya objectively places the life of all women equal to or greater than that of men.
Well, my interpretation is different so I don't see it as a scene being taken out of context, I see it as the best example of a running issue I noticed in Arya's translation from ASOIAF to GoT, and a running issue of greater misogyny being added into GoT from ASOIAF. I wasn't attempting to be intellectually disingenuous to prove a point, my reading of the material was simply different from yours.
@@HillsAliveYT Although we disagree, I respect your opinion and enjoy your videos and I appreciate you took the time to respond both (very) quickly and respectfully.
literally this is their move! Making the female character more masculine and hating all the traditionally female stuff= badass. They did that with Arya, Lyanna Mormont and by the end Sansa who became a cold and calculating Girl Boss who wears chains and leather armor. forgetting the core values of the characters: Arya and her justice v. revenge arch as the video stated, Sansa and her compassion and idealism v. pragmatism and harsh truths, and even Brienne with her fair lady vs warrior arch.
The got series was an overall misogyny fest from start to finish. I never enjoyed it
I totally disagree.
Just because Arya SAID something, like 'most girls are morons,' doesn't mean that's what she actually THINKS. You're assuming that all the characters say what they really think ALL THE TIME. That's ridiculous. Bear in mind that, in the early seasons you're talking about GRRM was pretty involved with the scripts. I'm sure HE has a better understanding of these characters than YOU do. Just sayin'...
BTW, I HATE the term 'Tomboy.' The word 'tomboy' insinuates that by not being overtly 'feminine,' she's acting like a boy. The word itself says that women must act ONE way, while men must act ANOTHER way. I prefer we all just be ourselves, as Arya does!
The way they characterized the Stark sisters in the show devastated me, especially Arya. GRRM went through various lengths to show her complexities, then d&d ruined her with that stereotypical faux feminist bullcrap. The way audiences say that it's fitting for arya to leave westeros is so sad. It feels like they didn't even know her character at all. I don't know why but Maisie and Sophie didn't feel like Arya and Sansa to me. The way they portrayed the Stark sisters are very shallow compared to what we got in the books, they knew these characters since they were children but still wrongly interpret the desires of the characters they're playing. I hope in the future, if they will remake GoT for some reason, I wish they would get the the characterization of the Stark sisters correct.
I wouldn't blame it on the actresses misinterpreting the characters. Writing and directing plays just as big of a role, two things the actresses had nothing to do with.
Honestly speaking i hated lyanna mormont from the beginning. She was such an overt representation of different type of women and girlboss feminism it was downright cringy
i think its interesting because visenya was not a butch brienne-like woman. think of her as a "warrior cersei" but ten times smarter. and Rhaenys was a typical girly girl not unlike the TV show's margaery. flirty, cutesy and feminine. even though arya clearly idolizes visenya more because she actually wielded a sword she makes a point of mentioning rhaenys too. rhaenys wasnt a fighter though she rode her dragon more than aegon and visenya combined but she was very much a classic girly girl.
No. Arya was a just a child and saying stupid things. Just like Sansa who was also young and foolish.
No tv adaptation is same as books and writer and producers can have their own interpretation of character. It wasn’t even important otherwise George RR Martin would have argued against it.
In general, once an author signs the network or studio contract they have very little power (if any) over the creative decisions and direction made by the show's creative team. GRRM could have and may have argued about some of their terrible choices until he was blue in the face it wouldn't have mattered to unreasonable, disrespectful, arrogant dicks like D & D. They pushed GRRM "out of the loop" after season 4 and assumed full ownership of the story once they surpassed what was already published. When they grew tired and overwhelmed they should have asked for more writers to help ease their burden or just left the series so HBO could have hired new writers who were actually qualified and up to the task.
GRRM has said that he regrets letting the series surpass the books. When the show began he had 5 huge books published, and he felt sure that they would have more than enough material to last long enough for him to have time to finish the other books. He didn't expect them to strip the books right down and surpass the published material so quickly. When they did, they started taking the story in a very different direction despite GRRM having given them a detailed synopsis of the remaining books.
The fact that GRRM has promised his fans that his story will be different and have a different ending than the GOT series is highly indicative that he very much disliked the direction those two buffoons took his story.
I never once saw her as gender non-conforming as a choice it was to hide who she was. She was never NOT a female but she was trying not to be found out as Arya Stark daughter of Ned Stark. As for the rest of it, i think most of the characters seen as feminine and less masculine and did it well was Margaery. Similarly to Alicent as i see it. which is why people didn't particularly like them imo. There's something off putting to people when a female who presents female and uses femininity to get what they want or needs to be done. Where as people like Arya are seen as strong ooo independent badass NOT feminine... why can't a women be feminine and strong why is that so threatening and off putting? hell i'd even argue catelyn stark was the pinnacle of female power. She did it all for her family and kids where as most of the other strong women who are seen as such did it for their own gain. Why is the typical female narrative seen as unworthy? i absolutely hated arya's character tbh. It felt too try hard. why does she need to absolutely object to typical feminine ways to be seen as strong and capable? why did she get to kill the big bad of the entire series? why was her entire existence so focused on KILLING and that's what made her a BADASS? it made no sense to be tbh and i never liked her. she felt like a giant brat. I feel the same about Rhaenyra in HOTD. oooo don't conform... ooo be a evil badass bc that's what makes a strong women. there's something empowering about characters like alicent who are silently controlling things from the inside out and doing it in the name of family. Who play the game in a way only a women could. every single man in this show kills, steals, lies, fights their way to the top... it's boring. what's amazing is when a women comes in and controls the men around her to do her bidding yet the men think its all their idea.
They turned her character into a cartoon character. She became a joke. The knife attack she survived? Her coming from nowhere to kill the Night King? I hated her character by the end.
Arya Stark is really one of the most dislikable characters for me personally.
I kinda see my younger self in her, just _worse_
She's the personification of "I'm not like other girls!" in one of the worst ways (aka believing she's superior bc of that) and it's become so obvious by the last season that D&D really just wanted her to be "cool" and "badass"
Notably the fight against Brienne and her killing the Night King were just so obnoxious, as if the put a Neon sign above her head that read "Look at me! I'm the coolest girl! Like me, NOW! Admire me, NOW! Praise my badassery, NOW!!"
I really look forward to reading the books to see the characters in new light
Arya not being cool with r*pe is hardly evidence she likes other women. She could easily dislike women like Sansa and still not want them to be assaulted.
This is a feminist trope. Feminist demean traditional women and only think a woman taking in masculine traits is worthy of praise or a storyline. I've noticed in other forms of media, that TPTB don't seem to grasp that a girl who likes dressed and makeup can also like football. Or a traditional tomboy type girl can also be a good cook. Or a beautiful women can also be good and STEM. It's either or for them, which is not how real women work.
Feminist or "hollywood feminist" (also it is convinient to analize the genre, in fantasy/superheroes many characters are pretty simple)? Because in many other feminist shows women are portrayed as humans, and they have plenty of personalities....
I'm glad I didn't read the books because I love the character Arya Stark as she is in the HBO series.
"Gender identity" does not exist in the ASOIF universe. You mean sex.
it very much does exist. if it didn't exist then explain why all the females wear dresses and none of the males do.
is there a biological reason that doesn't allow males to put on a dress? of course not.
females wear dresses because they're expected to. Because society demands they follow the concept of 'girls wear dresses and boys wear armor', that my friend is called gender.