I didn't mean for the video to end up being 15 minutes, but it just sort of kept on going. My bad. Let me know your guesses for the new DLC Character announcement tomorrow!
Oooh, the next DLC character, I'm guessing... Actually you know what? I'm more interested in potential Kirby buffs. I don't want to get my hopes up, but c'mon! Mah boi Kirby deserves them and is about damn time!
@@Liam-ly1rr watch the video He showed every single aerial that is slower than kirby's dair Notice how there is only about 15 of them Considering that there is about 400 aerials in the game since each character has 5 aerials... Thats REALLY slow
This covered basically every point I could think of. Extremely good analysis! (and thanks for the shoutout!) I really like how you approach this kind of discussion.
Oh, look, it's me! I also made the DAir advantage doc, and to briefly explain the "opponent's position matters" thing: The numbers listed in the Landing DAir portion of the doc are the absolute minimum advantage we can get. However, if the opponent lands, we get some extra, inconsistent advantage. Take Bowser for example: if he didn't land, he'd only be +1. Although he is forced to land, hitting the final hit before the landing hit and/or the Bowser SDIing down means our minimum advantage when he lands is +3, 1 frame off UTilt. Some characters are never forced to land and that number will always apply. As a side note, the way the multi-hits send certain characters can make the landing hit just... miss? One of the worst offenders in my experience is Captain Falcon. It has to do with their hurt animation and hurtbox shifting, but it's overall just kind of weird that this is another problem on top of its many others.
Dair is too slow (frame 18 start up). If it were faster, it'd be one of his best moves. It's great for catching certain recoveries, and randomly clanks with things that most people don't expect it to. Nair may be a better general edge guard tool, but Dair can be used to drag he opponent down for an early stock by stringing multiple Dairs together (this is pretty character specific though). It's "combos" most of which aren't technically true, but some of them are pretty close to true, and they are easier to perform than comboing off of his other aerials (at least for me.) Overall, It's far from his best move, but I also think it's significantly more useful than his worst (probably hammer flip). It seems more of a middle of the pack move that has just solidified itself as a part of Kirby's identity in my opinion, so people form strong opinions about it. And for those that are curious, Kirby's best move is 100% squish kick (that's the official name of his down tilt) The move is dope.
One time stringed a bunch of Dairs together but got too greedy and went for on last Dair then I fast fell and then I hear game look who won and it showed little Mac 55%
[11:30] Ah, I remember atiedebee. After the video, they came over to the Kirby discord to speak their mind, but then we started lecturing them on the uselessness of dair and they soon became one of us. Glad to see that some of us are open to arguments, unlike some people that just don't listen to other points.
Wow, truly a feel good story for the ages! I felt kinda bad using them as an example. But they had 55 likes on their comment, so that meant that a lot of people also feel the same way
I was skeptical after that video, but man this video was so well put together that it countered any argument I could have, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess I agree now.
Give it less startup (maybe around frame 15), make the spike stronger (spike hitbox deals more damage with no compensation on knockback), and give it less landing lag (12 or 13 frames). There will probably be a lot of people claiming this is unnecessary, but I do very much agree that this is quite possibly the most overrated move in Ultimate. It's definitely not as bad as hammer in my opinion, but it’s still a definite contender for his worst move.
@@chesslo2158 Not really in this case. Frame 11 isn't that slow for this kind of move; it'll be a lingering hit box that will lead into massive pillar combos onstage and excellent pressure offstage. Frame 11 is pretty fair all things considered. (But if course I'd like it to be even faster than that, but remember 64 dair?)
DJ Drizzy remember the spike doesn’t kill until 120%+ Then again it might mess with some combos, but I feel like a stronger spike might have more potential offstage
@@chesslo2158 by kill do you mean completely KO? If so then you really don't need an instant kill. Characters like mario or marth when hit with kirbys d-air at around 70 can be sent low enough so their up b doesn't make it. Also because of Kirby's multiple jumps, you can keep hitting them until they can't recover. It works for me.
Dang bro U had me at Frame 18 I thought it was a LOT faster than that I haven't touched kirby or played against a kirby for a while But man hes even worse than I thought he was...
Karl Cossaboon Just because a move is not useful doesn’t necessarily mean a character is bad Would I say Squirtle’s up smash makes him a bad character?
Noah Saltz Which is not the case. His buffs in 6.0.0 were pretty huge, which in turn, greatly improved his results. Yeah they’re not great, but those are more impressive than some of the low and even mid tier characters. Literally everything (except down air and maybe his grabs) he had in Smash 4, he got better at. Fsmash has more range and KO power. Inhale, neutral/up air are hella lot more useful. His MU spread is better. His playerbase isn’t as reliant on a few specific players. His results are superior. Some characters “improved” haven’t gotten the degree of success Kirby has gotten. Ganon, Swordfighter, Brawler - gimme one notable result they had last month.
I think a big reason why people tend to gravitate towards kirby's dair is because it's a multihit. Multihits tend to be overused for whatever reason by newer players (ness fair, yoshi dair, etc) even when they really aren't that useful compared to the character's other options.
I guess it just feels satisfying. It tricks you into thinking you do more damage or have the opponent under your control. Even now I love hearing the sound of rapid slappery.
I'm glad you made this video. Captured my feelings for the move perfectly. I understand that people in Kirbycord were trying to fight the misinfo but it felt like it made it worse when only the bad points are mentioned. Good stuff.
@@skeletonskeleton9010 Game and watch up b is one of his best option out of shield and can get you out of disadvantage for free, so it's common to see people using it over and over even at high level play.
@@skeletonskeleton9010 I was just trying to say that it's not the same with game and watch. Up b is not an intermediate level bad habit/gimmick that only works on people that don't know how to deal with it, it's just good.
@@skeletonskeleton9010 no that's like 4 steps later Cuz that move is frame 3 out of sheild That's the quickest out of sheild option in the game... Its MAD good
@@chesslo2158 Almost every tier list video has. Him in dead last, if not, second to last place. I wouldn't be surprised if he was considered to be the worst character by the fandom. As bad as mac is in the air, his ground game makes up for that. Kirbys pros just barley balance out his cons, if at all.
LazyKirby57 Mr. R and Glutonny put him in C tier and Dabuz puts him as the second-best bottom tier in their most recent tier lists, ESAM puts him as the best 4.0 character. I’d have to disagree by a fair amount since his results are more impressive than some of the low and even mid tier characters (Brawler, Swordfighter, Dorf, Puff, K. Rool). He’s one of the only characters in the game that can be used to legitimately fight Palutena, which is why Komota beat Jumpsteady (the latter is probably the best Palu player in SoCal). Aside from her, he can also do well against Fox, Lucina, space animals, Ness, and Wii Fit. His crouch is surprisingly strong and his defensive/ground game is equally as strong because of his fast frame data and moves that chain fluently. As for Mac his ground game is excellent as well but having a nonexistent air game means his flaws will overpower him. Even his ground game has issues (short range and vulnerable to combos due to his fast falling speed). Ganon has an air game. Corrin has one. K. Rool as well. Every character except Mac can at least function in one way or more in the air. I’m quite surprised that people don’t put Dorf as the worst tbh.
I actually put one out back in july! The buffs to kirby in 6.0 changed it a little bit, basically bumping up nair a tier or two, and up air one tier up, jab up a few spots, and inhale up a few spots. Those moves also indirectly caused down air to probably get bumped down a little bit.
The basic gist I’m getting is that dair is a good move that would be much more appreciated on another character. Very comprehensive, though a quick overview of how hammer and stone compare might’ve been good for people to draw their own conclusions about that. I had to dip into the Kirbycord to confirm what people were saying about hammer in the comments, and I think that a lot of people would be too stubborn to do that. From an non-kirby player’s perspective, I gravitate towards stone as the best of the three. Dair might be a lifesaver in some matchups, but stone seems like it’d be more a more consistent punish tool against all sorts of predictable recoveries, making it a bit more general use- I’ll take one free heavy hit on a recovering opponent over something potentially nasty but inconsistent, especially at high percents or against characters that don’t want to recover high. Not to mention you could use it offstage when recovering high yourself... Hammer at ledge seems like it could be potentially really fun even if it’s not necessary. You could theoretically base your playstyle around getting your opponents offstage and killing them stupid early at ledge, if you’re confident with your hard reads. That seems more valuable in the right hands than dair as well, being totally honest.
It might not be Kirby’s best move, but it’s for sure an amazing dair. Most daris don’t combo, and has a way smaller hitbox. The move is also super easy to use off stage, and can be used multiple times (and Kirby can go deep af off stage). For characters with linear recoveries (alot), you can literally cheese people at 0. This is even the case at top level Kirby play, competitive wise.
"When you first pick up the controller, and you discover Kirbys Down-B. At first it seems BUSTED" Damn why do you gotta call me out like that, my first main was Kirby and all I used was Down-B 😭
Bro If u are a kirby fan who hasn't ever played smash bros And u pick up smash bros And dont start doing this ( and play better than doing that )... Then you are the next MKLeo Literally everyone did this lmao I had 1000 battles in smash 4 and still did this I diddnt know any moves that weren't specials existed that entire time... Everyone did this
@@karlcossaboon7072 bro If you come across a comment thats clearly a joke And dont realize its a joke Then youre the next Beavis and Butthead Theres no reason to be rude
hammer is bad. but fully charged it kills like a Hero critical f-smash lol. So it barely makes up for being useless by killing at ~55% against standard weight. Fully charged it has 8 invulnerable frames and 8 super armor frames as well during the release of the move.
@@dddmemaybe It's not comparable to a hero crit fsmash when you have to stand around charging it for an hour before letting it rip. Nobody in the world above the age of 6 has ever been hit by a fully charged hammer flip.
Kirby dair is great in the sense that yoshi dair is good, its very good at reading players who are setting up landing aerials. So if you read an ike approaching with fh because he wants to land with nair, you do a preemptive fh dair and now you have a big punish
Even Mii swordfighter's dair is better. Comes about 4 frames faster, stays out for 20 frames, is bigger and I believe has more hitlag making it more useful to edge guard. All of that for only 4 more frames of ending lag
That comment arguing about samus jab is also incorrect lol Anyone who doesn’t play samus in this game always says jab is the worst move in her kit because it doesn’t combo, but the thing is, jab1 has less lag on it than a majority of other jabs in the game. This makes it a remarkable interruption tool that lets her poke and run, or poke and see how the opponent reacts much better than anyone else’s jab. If they try to jab you in between, you can jump over to cross up bair, or you can run back and pivot grab. Since it’s her quickest grounded option, it’s crucial for her. Homing missiles on the other hand sucks ass. Everything PJiggles mentioned applies. Sure they “apply pressure” but most projectiles are intended to make the opponent move away or combo into other things. Homing missiles, with their terrible turning radius, high lag, and the ability to swat them out of the sky for free, don’t really make the opponent move. Hell most of the time they don’t need to move out of the way to avoid them, the missiles just miss them anyway lmao. Homing missiles have 3 uses really, for some slight cover when recovering, and for covering certain platforms at certain angles, and for baiting out reflectors before shooting a charge shot at the reflected missile to blow through it because they’re that weak. That’s about it. Jab legit has more usability. However, in SOME matchups homing missiles are kind of useful
@@c_weir753 Arguing that jab 2 is her worst move makes perfect sense because multi-jab was Sheik's worst move and jab 3 was Ryu, Ken, and Terry's worst move.
@@squatcopper On a usual recording session I get like 5 of these. I edit most of them out where I can, but some slip through. I have no idea why it happens so much
Thank you for making this video. I didn't really understand why that was his worst move and the fact that the Kirby discord just said "dair sucks. moving on" and didn't really explain why it was his worst move (at least from what PJiggles showed us) lead to most people (myself included) to believe they were just trolling. This explains it well although I still think that Hammer flip is worse.
You forgot to add that the hitadvantage is inconsistent. Depending on when you land you can lose / gain around 2 frames if advantage. Atleast that's what I heard in the Kirby cord. A lot of the combos can also be escaped by SDI'ing up. Sorry for misinforming some people about the f smash thing it always worked for me so I thought it was true. Anyways great video xd
I didn't know it was frame 18 that makes so much more sense why its considered bad. I still find hammer flip to be a lot worse considering how it has zero uses and dair is good for gimping bad recoveries and recoveries without a hitbox.
They seriously just need to shave off several frames of startup, or making it way stronger so it makes sense to be that slow. There's NO reason it should be as slow as it is, especially for a lightweight like Kirby.
Could I just say that this video is very well made and thought out and also that you could probably use dair as a mixup since it comes out so much later than his other aireals.
If we wanna make Kirby stronger, making his meteor knockback stronger, and making it faster overall is a decent way to buff It could also get an updated hitbox to help it more
Btw I wouldn’t mention Lucas dair because honestly it’s for a different purpose- Comboing It leads into combos, drags offstage, and for early kill Lucas actually does have a good spike move, his bair.
There's a lot of misinformation, negation, and lack of sigh in the smash bros community, for example; a bunch of people think bowser's a bad character, even going as far as mocking m2k for saying he's a high tier, but then leoN switched to bowser and jumped from top 200th to top 20 in the ladder in less than 3 months. And easily 3-0'ing a lot of people (including Leffen), he even takes games from MkLeo easily -because the character is ridiculously strong. And yet people still say bowser is a low tier
Can we just talk about the landing hitbox leading to funny shenanigans? That hitbox can lead to a (not true) grab follow-up or ftilt. I still think that is useful in a mindgame, to challenge your oponento to be above you and then start juggling or to make them wait in the ground and going for a safer on shield option for the grab punish. I still think is one of the best of Kirby moves but for a casual player that I am, up-b is unfairly broken if used well xD
But vertical recoveries man. In some instances stone is free damage like Bowser using flames at ledge on some characters, but on others it makes them not have a vertical recovery past 100%.
Me before watching this video: I like using down air. Me after watching this video: I don't like using down air. Just give Kirby actual moves from his series pls.
Can you do a video on kirbys down b lol. I hate that move competitively. If it came out a couple frames faster,broke shields, had more armor on startup, it’d be better. Theres so many times ive read the hell out of people with down b just for it to come out too slow and get beat out on startup. Yeah that might be my fault but i think down b needs a power or frame buff. I would like to hear your opinion
Compared to nair you can cross up shields with dair since nair is over if you block the first hit. 7:20 ofc you're just gonna get punished if you land right in-front of their shield. They probably made it slow because you can dair like 4 times offstage w/o landing.
I gotta agree, this video is pretty spot on. But let's be real: unless you play for glory or E-sports, Kirby wouldn't be the same without it. If you ask me, landing kirbys down air perfectly is the most satisfying thing ever, and that's why I recently started maining it.
Before the reveal as to why Kirby mains consider D-Air his worst move I was just guessing on why it would be that way and my only real guess was the startup since it ain't that fast
Kirby dair is very good on vertical wall stages such as Kalos Stadium and Yoshi Story. It can get easy early kills with dair that works even at high tier characters such as Mario, Greninja, Inkling and Chrom as long as they are directly below you. But other than that, dair is very unsafe and not worth it to use on stage.
Awwwwwwww..... I totally was not expecting my name to show up at the end of the video..🥺😥😥 thanks juggleboy! Sincerely, One of your biggest fans.. -Jessie M. aka. Spartantroop aka. Umaro . . . Ps. Kirby's crocs at the end of the video.. 😁👌🏽
Now, what would be a good way to buff the move? I'd shave off a few frames of start up (from frame 18 > frame 14 or 15) and grant more priority and/or invincibility on his feet.
An interesting thing about this video is that it builds off of the Kirby mains’ comments in PJiggles video of how it’s not that bad but the rest of kirby’s kit can do anything dair can do but better, it’s just the video explains it more=(0
Haven't seen video, but it's literally impossible to even imagine kirby's down air being "good", it's been getting nerfed from game to game, now in a really deppressing state, where you're guaranteed punished if you got shielded, you can't confirm to footstool offstage, knockback offstage is sooo low even at mid-high %s, only true combos with stuff frame 4 or less (mostly ftilt, utilt), getting the autocancel confirm into dsmash/usmash is hella hard to land and prob getting sword'd
now that i have seen it, yes i agree with your points, just good to gimp bad-recovery characters, in ground pretty outclassed by other stuff like weak nair
I absolutely appreciated the longer video, and I absolutely wanted more in-depth analysis and I will die on that hill. Thank you SO much for this video! I will have to check out SK's videos as well. I would have liked a list of matchups that Kirby can and can't edgeguard easily with Dair, but I guess I'll have to find that out in the field! I have 6.2 million GSP with Kirby, and you are the reason why.
any chance you could make a video for like. a guide to playing kirby that insn't just spamming dair and down b? I think that would be very helpful for stopping new players from falling into traps like these
Kirby’s dair was one of the best moves in Wii U, in Ultimate it’s alright but not nearly as good. Kirby is really bad and the move doesn’t send them as far as they used to go in Wii U and sometimes it feels like opponents can just hit you while you’re using it off stage, however for combos it’s pretty alright
it becomes good situationally. people who think its good in neutral are wrong, because its way too slow, but reading bad ledge option and carrying them off stage can be good it middle levels of play. I only think it has value because its one of like 3 lingering spike hitboxes in the game. get in the way of a recovery with no hitbox, or just a little one, and the move is suddenly busted, with very little commitment as long as your positioning is good. If you whiff though then just start praying.
It's really hard to say, and just depends on what your definition of best is. Your playstyle and level of play are also big factors. However, it would definitely come down to up tilt, down tilt, nair, or fair. You could also argue for back air or forward tilt to some extent. Forward air does a lot of things pretty well, and if you removed it from his kit, kirby would be drastically worse. However if you removed down tilt, you replace some of the things it does with forward tilt/jab, so it wouldn't be as big of a deal as forward air. But down tilt can be incredibly good at certain times, so it's really hard to say
At the point in my Kirby play where I place it smack dab in the middle of his moves in viability. I think it’s better then all of his specials but his worst normal, unless against someone with a average or worse recovery because then I don’t really care if it doesn’t spike that well, they’re still dead or in a position where I can just do it again to them.
Hey, Kirby main here. The down air is a good move, but there are better, for example; Up special. See, it’s a good spike and damage racket, but there are better ones.
Me when I got the game: wow this move hits a bunch of times and lasts forever it’s busted Me after leaning more about Kirby: actually this takes forever to come out and I can barely land all the hits to save my life Me after getting better at spiking: oh wait this move spikes it’s actually useful
idk if it’s mentioned again or not later on but a couple impressions 6 minutes into the video Imagine this is struck through but idk how to do that on yt anymore [- Kirby in advantage can just dair > dair, there’s pretty much no situation where you can’t or wouldn’t, especially with kirby’s 5 jumps + his up b] - aerials never clash(/clank) not to say the point of the video is wrong, im just nitpicking for the sake of doing so lol
"I'm not going to try and say to much of my opinion and stick with the facts." ok ok, keeping it simple- i like it- "Buuuut- if you DO want my opinion then I think that's it's not Kirby's worst move-"
I didn't mean for the video to end up being 15 minutes, but it just sort of kept on going. My bad. Let me know your guesses for the new DLC Character announcement tomorrow!
Don't worry about it, I could listen to you for hours lol
Steve
Oooh, the next DLC character, I'm guessing... Actually you know what? I'm more interested in potential Kirby buffs.
I don't want to get my hopes up, but c'mon! Mah boi Kirby deserves them and is about damn time!
Waluigi
It’s definitely not going to happen, but I really want either waddle dee or hollow knight
That moment you realise Ganon's dair is faster than Kirby's 0_0
Wait.. ganon dair comes out faster than kirby's?
Yeah it’s frame 16 לאם ליבוביץ
lmaooooo
@@Liam-ly1rr watch the video
He showed every single aerial that is slower than kirby's dair
Notice how there is only about 15 of them
Considering that there is about 400 aerials in the game since each character has 5 aerials...
Thats REALLY slow
Lmaooooo
-@@penzfgc8009 2020
Funny how a new patch is coming soon, so this video could become outdated...
Might as well get it out now before it's completely unusable!
Tbh, I don't think they'll improve this move. It's very viable at elite smash level, which is what they balance for.
#BringBackFrameCanceling
Kirby Down Air buff here we come.
Hopefully
This covered basically every point I could think of. Extremely good analysis! (and thanks for the shoutout!) I really like how you approach this kind of discussion.
Oh, look, it's me! I also made the DAir advantage doc, and to briefly explain the "opponent's position matters" thing:
The numbers listed in the Landing DAir portion of the doc are the absolute minimum advantage we can get. However, if the opponent lands, we get some extra, inconsistent advantage. Take Bowser for example: if he didn't land, he'd only be +1. Although he is forced to land, hitting the final hit before the landing hit and/or the Bowser SDIing down means our minimum advantage when he lands is +3, 1 frame off UTilt. Some characters are never forced to land and that number will always apply.
As a side note, the way the multi-hits send certain characters can make the landing hit just... miss? One of the worst offenders in my experience is Captain Falcon. It has to do with their hurt animation and hurtbox shifting, but it's overall just kind of weird that this is another problem on top of its many others.
No subs i guess I’ll sub :)
This was a much better explanation than "dair sucks."
Dair is too slow (frame 18 start up). If it were faster, it'd be one of his best moves. It's great for catching certain recoveries, and randomly clanks with things that most people don't expect it to. Nair may be a better general edge guard tool, but Dair can be used to drag he opponent down for an early stock by stringing multiple Dairs together (this is pretty character specific though). It's "combos" most of which aren't technically true, but some of them are pretty close to true, and they are easier to perform than comboing off of his other aerials (at least for me.) Overall, It's far from his best move, but I also think it's significantly more useful than his worst (probably hammer flip). It seems more of a middle of the pack move that has just solidified itself as a part of Kirby's identity in my opinion, so people form strong opinions about it.
And for those that are curious, Kirby's best move is 100% squish kick (that's the official name of his down tilt) The move is dope.
Also if the spike killed earlier than 99999%
Oh no contest it's squish kick.
Jack Surine
That is the most adorable name for a move ever
One time stringed a bunch of Dairs together but got too greedy and went for on last Dair then I fast fell and then I hear game look who won and it showed little Mac 55%
Make it frame 9 and Kirby jumps 15 spots
[11:30] Ah, I remember atiedebee. After the video, they came over to the Kirby discord to speak their mind, but then we started lecturing them on the uselessness of dair and they soon became one of us. Glad to see that some of us are open to arguments, unlike some people that just don't listen to other points.
Wow, truly a feel good story for the ages! I felt kinda bad using them as an example. But they had 55 likes on their comment, so that meant that a lot of people also feel the same way
@@Juggleboy That's understandable. To be fair, I'm surprised so many people agreed with the whole dair > fsmash thing anyway.
I was skeptical after that video, but man this video was so well put together that it countered any argument I could have, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess I agree now.
@@staticchimera44 dair > fsmash works really well against the CPUs in World of Light. Depends on your frame of reference I guess?
@RoboSparkle Hammer Flip works in World Of Light
Give it less startup (maybe around frame 15), make the spike stronger (spike hitbox deals more damage with no compensation on knockback), and give it less landing lag (12 or 13 frames). There will probably be a lot of people claiming this is unnecessary, but I do very much agree that this is quite possibly the most overrated move in Ultimate. It's definitely not as bad as hammer in my opinion, but it’s still a definite contender for his worst move.
Make it frame 11-12, then add everything else you said. Imagine the combos man, we'll have real foot loops!
Frame 11 would still be mediocre for aerials, make it frame 8
@@chesslo2158 Not really in this case. Frame 11 isn't that slow for this kind of move; it'll be a lingering hit box that will lead into massive pillar combos onstage and excellent pressure offstage. Frame 11 is pretty fair all things considered. (But if course I'd like it to be even faster than that, but remember 64 dair?)
DJ Drizzy remember the spike doesn’t kill until 120%+
Then again it might mess with some combos, but I feel like a stronger spike might have more potential offstage
@@chesslo2158 by kill do you mean completely KO? If so then you really don't need an instant kill.
Characters like mario or marth when hit with kirbys d-air at around 70 can be sent low enough so their up b doesn't make it. Also because of Kirby's multiple jumps, you can keep hitting them until they can't recover. It works for me.
Dang bro
U had me at
Frame 18
I thought it was a LOT faster than that
I haven't touched kirby or played against a kirby for a while
But man hes even worse than I thought he was...
Karl Cossaboon Just because a move is not useful doesn’t necessarily mean a character is bad
Would I say Squirtle’s up smash makes him a bad character?
I mean, Kirby isn't..un-viable but, he sure as hell isn't top tier
Mina L exactly
Kirby might need buffs but that’s going too far if one would say he’s worse than his smash 4 counterpart
@@chesslo2158 Yeah, but basically almost everyone was buffed. Compared to other characters, he's bad.
Noah Saltz Which is not the case. His buffs in 6.0.0 were pretty huge, which in turn, greatly improved his results. Yeah they’re not great, but those are more impressive than some of the low and even mid tier characters.
Literally everything (except down air and maybe his grabs) he had in Smash 4, he got better at. Fsmash has more range and KO power. Inhale, neutral/up air are hella lot more useful. His MU spread is better. His playerbase isn’t as reliant on a few specific players. His results are superior.
Some characters “improved” haven’t gotten the degree of success Kirby has gotten. Ganon, Swordfighter, Brawler - gimme one notable result they had last month.
This is my favorite smash ultimate video. Super Liked and Favorited!
I think a big reason why people tend to gravitate towards kirby's dair is because it's a multihit. Multihits tend to be overused for whatever reason by newer players (ness fair, yoshi dair, etc) even when they really aren't that useful compared to the character's other options.
I guess it just feels satisfying. It tricks you into thinking you do more damage or have the opponent under your control. Even now I love hearing the sound of rapid slappery.
*RAPID SLAPPERY*
@@dubiouslittlecreature908 true, but the characters definitely have better options than those in most circumstances
But Ness fair is one is his best moves...
Cre ness fair is pretty good so is yoshi,s dair the reason kirby dair is bad is because of the startup lag
I'm glad you made this video. Captured my feelings for the move perfectly. I understand that people in Kirbycord were trying to fight the misinfo but it felt like it made it worse when only the bad points are mentioned. Good stuff.
Kirby's dair is my favorite casual move since the people I play against cannot handle multi-hits that well and it always follows up with u-tilt
2:15 Up-B spammers goes into the step between the two imo
Same with Game and Watch
@@skeletonskeleton9010 Game and watch up b is one of his best option out of shield and can get you out of disadvantage for free, so it's common to see people using it over and over even at high level play.
@@Meuhy I know, I am one.
@@skeletonskeleton9010 I was just trying to say that it's not the same with game and watch. Up b is not an intermediate level bad habit/gimmick that only works on people that don't know how to deal with it, it's just good.
@@skeletonskeleton9010 no that's like 4 steps later
Cuz that move is frame 3 out of sheild
That's the quickest out of sheild option in the game...
Its MAD good
Can I argue that killing someone with it his a hard disrespect
Winning with kirby when they use a good character is disrespectful
@@Astraaaaaaaaaaa I always wonder how top tier mains feel, knowing they lost to the worst character
LazyKirby57 If someone thinks Kirby is the worst then I’ll be baffled, he still needs buffs but there’s literally no way he’s absolutely the worst
@@chesslo2158 Almost every tier list video has. Him in dead last, if not, second to last place. I wouldn't be surprised if he was considered to be the worst character by the fandom. As bad as mac is in the air, his ground game makes up for that. Kirbys pros just barley balance out his cons, if at all.
LazyKirby57 Mr. R and Glutonny put him in C tier and Dabuz puts him as the second-best bottom tier in their most recent tier lists, ESAM puts him as the best 4.0 character.
I’d have to disagree by a fair amount since his results are more impressive than some of the low and even mid tier characters (Brawler, Swordfighter, Dorf, Puff, K. Rool). He’s one of the only characters in the game that can be used to legitimately fight Palutena, which is why Komota beat Jumpsteady (the latter is probably the best Palu player in SoCal). Aside from her, he can also do well against Fox, Lucina, space animals, Ness, and Wii Fit. His crouch is surprisingly strong and his defensive/ground game is equally as strong because of his fast frame data and moves that chain fluently.
As for Mac his ground game is excellent as well but having a nonexistent air game means his flaws will overpower him. Even his ground game has issues (short range and vulnerable to combos due to his fast falling speed). Ganon has an air game. Corrin has one. K. Rool as well. Every character except Mac can at least function in one way or more in the air.
I’m quite surprised that people don’t put Dorf as the worst tbh.
So you could say DAIR wouldn’t FAIR well in competitive play
Leave this chat
it's a bit of a DAIR-ING move if you ask me
ok Mario
Yeah, and if you DAIR to use NAIR, then it would FAIR much better since the move's frame data is more BAIR-able.
I'm not sorry
I like this guy
Full Kirby move tierlist coming soon?
I actually put one out back in july! The buffs to kirby in 6.0 changed it a little bit, basically bumping up nair a tier or two, and up air one tier up, jab up a few spots, and inhale up a few spots. Those moves also indirectly caused down air to probably get bumped down a little bit.
@@Juggleboy Ooh interesting, imma check it out thanks!
The basic gist I’m getting is that dair is a good move that would be much more appreciated on another character. Very comprehensive, though a quick overview of how hammer and stone compare might’ve been good for people to draw their own conclusions about that. I had to dip into the Kirbycord to confirm what people were saying about hammer in the comments, and I think that a lot of people would be too stubborn to do that.
From an non-kirby player’s perspective, I gravitate towards stone as the best of the three. Dair might be a lifesaver in some matchups, but stone seems like it’d be more a more consistent punish tool against all sorts of predictable recoveries, making it a bit more general use- I’ll take one free heavy hit on a recovering opponent over something potentially nasty but inconsistent, especially at high percents or against characters that don’t want to recover high. Not to mention you could use it offstage when recovering high yourself...
Hammer at ledge seems like it could be potentially really fun even if it’s not necessary. You could theoretically base your playstyle around getting your opponents offstage and killing them stupid early at ledge, if you’re confident with your hard reads. That seems more valuable in the right hands than dair as well, being totally honest.
Tbh stone is great for mind games because you can cancel out, people get underneath, and then you can do it agaib
Great time to mention this, I was just starting to finish up my video and this is great to see you cover
It might not be Kirby’s best move, but it’s for sure an amazing dair. Most daris don’t combo, and has a way smaller hitbox. The move is also super easy to use off stage, and can be used multiple times (and Kirby can go deep af off stage). For characters with linear recoveries (alot), you can literally cheese people at 0. This is even the case at top level Kirby play, competitive wise.
"When you first pick up the controller, and you discover Kirbys Down-B. At first it seems BUSTED"
Damn why do you gotta call me out like that, my first main was Kirby and all I used was Down-B 😭
Hey, I was in the same boat. No shame!
everybody was once in this boat
Bro
If u are a kirby fan who hasn't ever played smash bros
And u pick up smash bros
And dont start doing this ( and play better than doing that )...
Then you are the next MKLeo
Literally everyone did this lmao
I had 1000 battles in smash 4 and still did this
I diddnt know any moves that weren't specials existed that entire time...
Everyone did this
@@karlcossaboon7072 bro
If you come across a comment thats clearly a joke
And dont realize its a joke
Then youre the next Beavis and Butthead
Theres no reason to be rude
I know everyone did this that was literally the whole point of the quote
so. What I’m forming is that hammer is clearly worse with all of this laid out LOL
hammer is bad. but fully charged it kills like a Hero critical f-smash lol. So it barely makes up for being useless by killing at ~55% against standard weight. Fully charged it has 8 invulnerable frames and 8 super armor frames as well during the release of the move.
dddmemaybe i know I’m knit picking but it’s only 6 frames of super armor
@@xxmegagallade47 oh I thought I read 8
@@dddmemaybe It's not comparable to a hero crit fsmash when you have to stand around charging it for an hour before letting it rip. Nobody in the world above the age of 6 has ever been hit by a fully charged hammer flip.
@@HopperDragon yea but what if he waits lol. It's bad, but it does its bad job well at obliterating you if the cosmos allow it.
Me, comboing dair into dair:
*This is the epitome of skill*
that dair comes out after a short cinematic intro
Kirby dair is great in the sense that yoshi dair is good, its very good at reading players who are setting up landing aerials. So if you read an ike approaching with fh because he wants to land with nair, you do a preemptive fh dair and now you have a big punish
But once again fair or bair is a better option
Thank you for making this video it single-handedly and the argument between me and my cousin on what his best move was
Even Mii swordfighter's dair is better. Comes about 4 frames faster, stays out for 20 frames, is bigger and I believe has more hitlag making it more useful to edge guard. All of that for only 4 more frames of ending lag
Yeah but who uses swordfighter ;)
@@rensaito9009 Someone that trying to main over 10 character. (me) applies to any other Miis. (still me)
@@monoko1234 rip
@@monoko1234 try to main top/high mid tiers bro, like luigi peach or fun characters like mario
@@rensaito9009 Some of my mains are Yoshi, PKMN Trainer and Bowser. So I already did it.
That comment arguing about samus jab is also incorrect lol
Anyone who doesn’t play samus in this game always says jab is the worst move in her kit because it doesn’t combo, but the thing is, jab1 has less lag on it than a majority of other jabs in the game. This makes it a remarkable interruption tool that lets her poke and run, or poke and see how the opponent reacts much better than anyone else’s jab. If they try to jab you in between, you can jump over to cross up bair, or you can run back and pivot grab. Since it’s her quickest grounded option, it’s crucial for her.
Homing missiles on the other hand sucks ass. Everything PJiggles mentioned applies. Sure they “apply pressure” but most projectiles are intended to make the opponent move away or combo into other things. Homing missiles, with their terrible turning radius, high lag, and the ability to swat them out of the sky for free, don’t really make the opponent move. Hell most of the time they don’t need to move out of the way to avoid them, the missiles just miss them anyway lmao.
Homing missiles have 3 uses really, for some slight cover when recovering, and for covering certain platforms at certain angles, and for baiting out reflectors before shooting a charge shot at the reflected missile to blow through it because they’re that weak. That’s about it. Jab legit has more usability.
However, in SOME matchups homing missiles are kind of useful
I completely agree I use jab way more than homing missile. And there is no sound argument for jab 1 being bad maybe jab 2
@@c_weir753 Arguing that jab 2 is her worst move makes perfect sense because multi-jab was Sheik's worst move and jab 3 was Ryu, Ken, and Terry's worst move.
7:09 I don’t know why but your voice sounded so feminine when you said using it on stage
Cracking up lmao
He fronted his tongue too much and created a "gay S" for a second lol. Happens to the best of us
@@squatcopper On a usual recording session I get like 5 of these. I edit most of them out where I can, but some slip through. I have no idea why it happens so much
and then, 6 months later, you made a combo video entirely about dair
Thank you for making this video. I didn't really understand why that was his worst move and the fact that the Kirby discord just said "dair sucks. moving on" and didn't really explain why it was his worst move (at least from what PJiggles showed us) lead to most people (myself included) to believe they were just trolling. This explains it well although I still think that Hammer flip is worse.
You forgot to add that the hitadvantage is inconsistent. Depending on when you land you can lose / gain around 2 frames if advantage.
Atleast that's what I heard in the Kirby cord.
A lot of the combos can also be escaped by SDI'ing up.
Sorry for misinforming some people about the f smash thing it always worked for me so I thought it was true.
Anyways great video xd
I feel educated. I shall use this knowledge to my advantage!
"Kirby's Dair is his worst move."
Mockrock: "... no."
Great video, I'll be sure to send people here instead of explaining this problem myself from now on.
I like how you explained this for casual and advanced players
7:38 I remember my days of f smash out of shield, those were simpler times
I didn't know it was frame 18 that makes so much more sense why its considered bad. I still find hammer flip to be a lot worse considering how it has zero uses and dair is good for gimping bad recoveries and recoveries without a hitbox.
As soon as the rock was mentioned, it hit me why, haha. Good vid, appreciated a more indepth explanation why.
When pjiggles said that kirby's worst move is Dair I was like "wait what the fuck"
wow, a 15 minute video on a single move, i like dis
They seriously just need to shave off several frames of startup, or making it way stronger so it makes sense to be that slow. There's NO reason it should be as slow as it is, especially for a lightweight like Kirby.
Dair isn't brilliant. But Kirby's worst move is a tossup between Falcon Punch and Rollout
na falcon punch and warlock punch
@@Keeby. warlock punch is crazy shield break punish
@@Simon-hs7ik so is kirbys side b
@@Keeby. kill at 0 vs kill at 15
plus if you have warlock punch you'll never use side B for punish
@@Simon-hs7ik kirbys inhale is literally better then warlock punch
if youre trying to argue warlock punch is good you havent played smash comp
Could I just say that this video is very well made and thought out and also that you could probably use dair as a mixup since it comes out so much later than his other aireals.
Lasagevev0 While that is true, i think dair is too telegraphed to be used as a mix up
Kirby's d-air spike for me usually is good for gimping bad recoveries, and sometimes combos.
If we wanna make Kirby stronger, making his meteor knockback stronger, and making it faster overall is a decent way to buff
It could also get an updated hitbox to help it more
I mean, I’m still gonna use it
Kirb dair ride is now a thing puyo
The length was mostly necessary. Also, thank you.
Btw I wouldn’t mention Lucas dair because honestly it’s for a different purpose-
Comboing
It leads into combos, drags offstage, and for early kill Lucas actually does have a good spike move, his bair.
There's a lot of misinformation, negation, and lack of sigh in the smash bros community, for example; a bunch of people think bowser's a bad character, even going as far as mocking m2k for saying he's a high tier, but then leoN switched to bowser and jumped from top 200th to top 20 in the ladder in less than 3 months. And easily 3-0'ing a lot of people (including Leffen), he even takes games from MkLeo easily -because the character is ridiculously strong. And yet people still say bowser is a low tier
i just use it because i like the sound kirby makes when you do it
Um hello juggle boy.i just want to say that watching ur kirby videos... brought me from 127,000 GSP all the way to 1,012,345 GSP.thanks a lot😁😋😀🤣
Holy shit my comment is in there
Also I changed my mind about dair since I joined the Kirby cord
Great video, I knew dair wasn't all that amazing, but I didn't knew it was that underwhelming either, and nair is better than I thought.
3:16 this gets worse the longer you look at it
Can we just talk about the landing hitbox leading to funny shenanigans? That hitbox can lead to a (not true) grab follow-up or ftilt. I still think that is useful in a mindgame, to challenge your oponento to be above you and then start juggling or to make them wait in the ground and going for a safer on shield option for the grab punish. I still think is one of the best of Kirby moves but for a casual player that I am, up-b is unfairly broken if used well xD
I still think stone is worse as a move
Hammer has its uses and a surprising amount of people will get hit by it
But vertical recoveries man. In some instances stone is free damage like Bowser using flames at ledge on some characters, but on others it makes them not have a vertical recovery past 100%.
dddmemaybe
Fair point, and I’ve changed my opinion lol
Me before watching this video: I like using down air.
Me after watching this video: I don't like using down air.
Just give Kirby actual moves from his series pls.
Can you do a video on kirbys down b lol. I hate that move competitively. If it came out a couple frames faster,broke shields, had more armor on startup, it’d be better. Theres so many times ive read the hell out of people with down b just for it to come out too slow and get beat out on startup. Yeah that might be my fault but i think down b needs a power or frame buff. I would like to hear your opinion
Compared to nair you can cross up shields with dair since nair is over if you block the first hit. 7:20 ofc you're just gonna get punished if you land right in-front of their shield. They probably made it slow because you can dair like 4 times offstage w/o landing.
I gotta agree, this video is pretty spot on.
But let's be real: unless you play for glory or E-sports, Kirby wouldn't be the same without it. If you ask me, landing kirbys down air perfectly is the most satisfying thing ever, and that's why I recently started maining it.
Before the reveal as to why Kirby mains consider D-Air his worst move I was just guessing on why it would be that way and my only real guess was the startup since it ain't that fast
Kirby dair is very good on vertical wall stages such as Kalos Stadium and Yoshi Story. It can get easy early kills with dair that works even at high tier characters such as Mario, Greninja, Inkling and Chrom as long as they are directly below you. But other than that, dair is very unsafe and not worth it to use on stage.
Awwwwwwww..... I totally was not expecting my name to show up at the end of the video..🥺😥😥 thanks juggleboy!
Sincerely, One of your biggest fans..
-Jessie M. aka. Spartantroop aka. Umaro
.
.
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Ps. Kirby's crocs at the end of the video.. 😁👌🏽
The air comes out of the narrow part of the Gust Bellows.
You're right. i didnt even notice!
Now, what would be a good way to buff the move? I'd shave off a few frames of start up (from frame 18 > frame 14 or 15) and grant more priority and/or invincibility on his feet.
Kirby main that relies on dair here. Happy to say I’ll be trying things from this vid to improve
rup the mewtwo who got hit by down b because of tail hitbox
An interesting thing about this video is that it builds off of the Kirby mains’ comments in PJiggles video of how it’s not that bad but the rest of kirby’s kit can do anything dair can do but better, it’s just the video explains it more=(0
I get it, the tiny sparrow was undercover to witness kirby to go down 🙀
Haven't seen video, but it's literally impossible to even imagine kirby's down air being "good", it's been getting nerfed from game to game, now in a really deppressing state, where you're guaranteed punished if you got shielded, you can't confirm to footstool offstage, knockback offstage is sooo low even at mid-high %s, only true combos with stuff frame 4 or less (mostly ftilt, utilt), getting the autocancel confirm into dsmash/usmash is hella hard to land and prob getting sword'd
now that i have seen it, yes i agree with your points, just good to gimp bad-recovery characters, in ground pretty outclassed by other stuff like weak nair
I absolutely appreciated the longer video, and I absolutely wanted more in-depth analysis and I will die on that hill. Thank you SO much for this video! I will have to check out SK's videos as well. I would have liked a list of matchups that Kirby can and can't edgeguard easily with Dair, but I guess I'll have to find that out in the field!
I have 6.2 million GSP with Kirby, and you are the reason why.
I fucking love Kirby’s d’air
“Down air is bad” JeJaJeJa is typing…
I feel so called out but I use other moves to I just start out with a little dair to grab to fair
What's funny is I clicked on this video remembering the PJiggles video.
any chance you could make a video for like. a guide to playing kirby that insn't just spamming dair and down b? I think that would be very helpful for stopping new players from falling into traps like these
Thanks for the video. Dair is really not a good move I never understood why people online often go for it
Kirby’s dair was one of the best moves in Wii U, in Ultimate it’s alright but not nearly as good. Kirby is really bad and the move doesn’t send them as far as they used to go in Wii U and sometimes it feels like opponents can just hit you while you’re using it off stage, however for combos it’s pretty alright
I’m still sad that Kirby’s hamer got nerfed so hard after brawl :(
Remember terrible moves doesn’t mean useless
it becomes good situationally. people who think its good in neutral are wrong, because its way too slow, but reading bad ledge option and carrying them off stage can be good it middle levels of play. I only think it has value because its one of like 3 lingering spike hitboxes in the game. get in the way of a recovery with no hitbox, or just a little one, and the move is suddenly busted, with very little commitment as long as your positioning is good. If you whiff though then just start praying.
Ness, and Ice climbers my favorite heavys.
I know he said on average! OK!
Hey if you don't mind me asking, what do you think his best move is?
It's really hard to say, and just depends on what your definition of best is. Your playstyle and level of play are also big factors. However, it would definitely come down to up tilt, down tilt, nair, or fair. You could also argue for back air or forward tilt to some extent. Forward air does a lot of things pretty well, and if you removed it from his kit, kirby would be drastically worse. However if you removed down tilt, you replace some of the things it does with forward tilt/jab, so it wouldn't be as big of a deal as forward air. But down tilt can be incredibly good at certain times, so it's really hard to say
Juggleboy would you still say those are his best moves after the patch?
At the point in my Kirby play where I place it smack dab in the middle of his moves in viability. I think it’s better then all of his specials but his worst normal, unless against someone with a average or worse recovery because then I don’t really care if it doesn’t spike that well, they’re still dead or in a position where I can just do it again to them.
Great video
Nice explanation bro
Hey, Kirby main here. The down air is a good move, but there are better, for example; Up special. See, it’s a good spike and damage racket, but there are better ones.
I think they should buff it to come out frame 10 at least.
I was wondering why my Up-Tilt>D-Air didn't work coming from Smash 4.
Me when I got the game: wow this move hits a bunch of times and lasts forever it’s busted
Me after leaning more about Kirby: actually this takes forever to come out and I can barely land all the hits to save my life
Me after getting better at spiking: oh wait this move spikes it’s actually useful
Kirby be copying abilities by sucking people and Jigglypuff is copying Kirby’s down air
maybe its bad for comp but i love it
Amazing combo starter, and decent edge guard, lets move on to why we hate side B with a burning passion
Kirby's worst move is Jigglypuff's copy ability.
Bepis Kirby inhaling another Kirby?
And inhailing king dedede or wario those are probably the four worst
@@rainwilson4036 Dedede's inhale = good against gordos, also more range
Wario's chomp can heal upon landing the move
I meant at least cool like they are all swallowing people
@@rainwilson4036 Chomp is a kill move and Dedede inhale is a reflector
1:28 now we have a new meme: surprised Kirby face
idk if it’s mentioned again or not later on but a couple impressions 6 minutes into the video
Imagine this is struck through but idk how to do that on yt anymore [- Kirby in advantage can just dair > dair, there’s pretty much no situation where you can’t or wouldn’t, especially with kirby’s 5 jumps + his up b]
- aerials never clash(/clank)
not to say the point of the video is wrong, im just nitpicking for the sake of doing so lol
two frame easily on ledge because its active for 2 hours. Especially useful against move like palutena up B
"I'm not going to try and say to much of my opinion and stick with the facts."
ok ok, keeping it simple- i like it-
"Buuuut- if you DO want my opinion then I think that's it's not Kirby's worst move-"