It surely does seem to be the right combination of a-lot of factors that just seem to work. In the vacuum that is scientific testing, one would not conclude it to be the formidable choice it is but to your point, real world data is the only facts that matter. Thanks for viewing.
@@bowieupland6112 My first on duty shooting involved standard pressure, lead round nose .38 and it put the suspect down. My other two incidents were w/+P and they also did the job absent any difficulty.
I have a Rohn 38 special derringer. Bought in 1968. It’s been stolen from me twice. I was forced to use it against a knife wielder 4 years ago. He died but my wife lived.
HOW THE HELL DO YOU GET THE SAME GUN STOLEN TWICE?!!!! THIS IS WHY METH ADDICTS SHOULDNT HAVE GUNS BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU SOLD IT AND REPORTED IT STOLEN TO SCAM THE BUYER..
@@hittinfoe383 the first time the Honolulu police got it back for me. Second time the San Diego pd retrieved it. The person I killed was my wife’s only child. He suddenly stopped 200mg/day of Zoloft. The backlash drove him bipolar. He wanted to die. I’m 78 and DO NOT used illegal drugs.
@@atomicbill WOW!!!!! HOW ARE YOU NOT IN PRISON!! SOUNDS LIKE YOUR THE UNSTABLE ONE TO ME.. IT ABSOLUTELY MAKES NO SENSE TO ME THAT YOU THINK YOUR IN THE RIGHT.. YOUR A THUG AND A MENACE TO SOCEITY
@@atomicbill If the public ever wakes up to what those pills have done to our society, those companies will be out of business and in jail. My condolences to all involved.
Another option which has been tested and vetted is: The standard pressure 148 grain full wadcutter. #1) The recoil is far milder than the majority of 38's. #2) Because of its sharp 90 degree angles; it deflects less than a FMJ or a LRN. #3) The wadcutters are not as expensive as most 38 carry rounds; making it a good choice for practice and carry. #4) The full wadcutter usually penetrates slightly better than JHP's; with a penetration that is usually between 12-18 inches in ballistic gelatin.
this is exactly pretty much, word for word what I always say. I have been using wadcutters now for many years and well, practice with the same loads I carry. and another benefit is they are not as loud as the other loads. ( since you are not wearing ear protection in a defensive shooting).
watching this video, i have had 2 taurus 856 snub nose 38's. never fired either one. my hands are very arthritic at 68 yrs. i own a couple of 22's. my point being, watching the recoil, kind of made me think about controlling 2 or more quick shots. with my 22's, almost no recoil, and can put 2-3-4 shots dead center faster than a bigger caliber target acquisition. learned a lot watching this. i do like wheel guns, compared to semi autos. thanks again.
Just read it. It doesn't describe the projectile. From the damage, he had no chance, very little to none even if it happened today right in front of a level 1 trauma center. It got his spleen, aorta, and a kidney. It entered about 3 inches left of the midline beteween the 7th and 8th ribs and penetrated at a diagonal from left to right.
The scant consensus I can find is that it was probably a 158 grain lead round nose. There was 130 grain FMJ ammo in 38 Special produced during WW2 (and afterward) because you can't use expanding projectiles in combat. There was lots of surplus. It's possible Ruby had some, but who knows?
The other day I got my first revolver chambered in .357(Kimber k6s dasa) and I bought some ammo inc. .38 special to use as my initial range ammo. My 7th shot was a squib, the first I have ever had. Thanks to you showing what a squib looks like in your .32 h&r video I was able to immediately recognize what had happened and did not fire a second round. Thank you for not editing that out of your video, that information saved me from a potential disaster.
As a kid living in the River Quay of Kansas City I saw a man get shot in the abdomen by another man armed with a .38 snubnose, not sure if it was a hollow point or not but he spent over a month in the hospital and came home in a wheelchair wearing a colostomy bag, and that's how he spent the rest of his gangster life.
A thought occurred to me on the velocity difference you first experienced between the shorter barreled Smith vs the longer barreled Taurus. Based on an experience I had between a Ruger and a Taurus I had with similar outcomes. It turned out that the cylinder gap was significantly less on the one giving the higher velocity. So, that might be another factor to throw into the mix.
The Model 66 Taurus is chambered for .357 magnum. A .38 special round is shorter and the bullet will have more space to "jump" in the cylinder to reach the forcing cone. There is a little pressure/energy lost in this process. Depending on the powder used, the longer barrel will more than make up this lost pressure by the bullet staying in the barrel under pressure longer. The burn rate of the powder is a factor as is the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone. You never know what you are going to get out of a round unless you test it, as you are doing.
The .38 SPL is a very effective "Man stopper" and is still an excellent choice for a home defense gun. I would go for a 4-inch barrel and a 158-grain projectile such as the Buffalo Bore .38 Special +P 158 Grain LSWCHP-GC Anyone fancy being shot in the upper mass with one of these at 7 Yards wearing only a Tee-Shirt ..NO I DID NOT THINK SO! Put it this way... You would KNOW you have been shot. I don't care how tough you think you are. In a world full of semi-automatic 9mm guns... The .38 SPL is still worthy and a well-proven "Man stopper"
@@CaliforniaMortgageLoans Hornady made some superb ammo ... The 110 Grain FTX Hornady critical defense is an excellent round fired from a snub-nose revolver and will give good expansion.
@@CaliforniaMortgageLoansi would not carry 110 grain projects in the .38 spl or 357 mag cartridges In any case other than absolute emergency, they are known to damage barrels much faster over time as well which is why anything under 120 grains is not recommended in any of s&w manuals as well as in general. I’ve carried and shot j frame revolvers for several years now, all fixed sight s&w 38 revolver models are factory tested and sighted in with 158 gr bullets, unless you have a less common model with adjustable sights and have messed around with them before, just use standard pressure 158 gr semi wadcutters by buffalo bore. Best round in 38 spl hands down, no need to go +p
My friend has owned, kept a NIB model Ruger LCR .38 with a red Lasermax aimer. He bought it, 2013. To my surprise the red dot, unit has still lit up, bright laser even in 2021 2022. He loads the LCR with older Cor Bon DPX 110gr +P.
Love my RIA 2" snubby, great lil concealment revolver ❤️. I prefer to carry 158gr jhp from Norma. Out of the snub-nose, the heavier projectiles seem to have better terminal ballistics due to that extra momentum 💪.
I have a r.i.a m200..and I use 125g Hornady american gunner hallow points..I also have 110g Hornady critical defense with the red flex tips...do you think I should put the critical defenses inside of the r.i.a as well as my snub nose? What's your opinion
@@istartedajoke1704 personally I would run the 125s, the lighter projectiles can have under-penetration out of a 2" barrel, especially with 38spl. I'm sure either one will stop the threat, but you will get a lil more punch with the 125, with the 110s getting less punch but more expansion (generally)
Nice presentation, I still love my S & W 442 Performance Center with a Crimson trace Laser. My college aged daughters and wife can depend on it on close combat situations. i started with a wheel gun in 1980's at the New York City Police Academy, ending with a Glock 19, it is a lot more involved for semi-automatics. Now retired with a Staccato CS, flat trigger, Holosun 509T, DLC barrel. We love our guns and its potentials. Thanks for sharing.
Carrying a S&W 640 Pro with Hornady CD 38+P and I feel it’s more then adequate for self defense. I know many retired law enforcement folks who said they put more then a few bad guys in the ground with a 38. Switched from from Glock 43x and not looking back.
If a shooter has difficulty positioning all his fingers with a short-barreled revolver, the solution is often included with the firearm itself. It can quickly relocate carelessly placed fingers.
I have an ex PD 38sp S&W SA/DA model 10-10 revolver with a 4" barrel. I hand load for it and usually use 148 or 158 grain full and semi wadcutter poly coated bullets. Out of the 4" barrel they achieve good penetration and, when they hit something hard, good expansion. When I carry it I have it loaded with full wadcutters and carry at least one Safariland Comp II speed loader with semi wadcutters as back up loads. As the police discovered when the full wadcutter bullets were developed they can do some serious damage but pointed bullets are easier and quicker to load when you're in a hurry. The poly coated bullets have consistent accuracy, are cheaper to load than hollow point or FMJ bullets, don't lead up the barrel like plain lead bullets, and make cleaning quicker and easier.
I have those from 1982 in +P. We fired those into wet City of Denver phone books from a 4” Smith. Wow they made a huge mess and were a horribly ragged 1/2” + disks. Too bad I never bothered checking the penetration at the time.
I have shot 2 white tailed deer in Pennsylvania with 38 spl. I was shooting 158 grn soft points. Hand loaded to max.charge. I was using a Ruger Blackhawk with 7 inch barrel. The bullets completely went through the deer and I found both deer within. 80 yds. With a very good blood trail. The deer were about 45-50 yards when I shot them.
Dont worry so much of 38 special stopping power,in standard load 158gr LRN,it lacas this,but,but,if you can shoot it in a profficient way double action,you are gringo to have a superb and accurate gun for self defense!! Very nice video, thanks for sharing!!
.38 Special in a 4inch revolver is like the western equivalent to a Makrov 9x18. 6 for sure, they tend to be powerful enough, they are effective with minimal controls. Reason with cops abandoning them still, is that the 9mm and .40 are potent enough to offer some killing power against someone on hard drugs. They also generally offer half the firepower in round count of an assault rifle. .38 offered a true duty strength cartridge in a medium K frame revolver. .38 +p to be specific. I still use a Taurus .38 loaded with plus P for things…
Good Morning from America! Very humbled to be watched internationally. Glad you liked the content and our exploration of the .38 special is far from over. Thanks and be well.
Charter Arms Undercover Lite 'Blue Diamond' (the most beautiful revolver ever made, sniff). I just run standard pressure Hornady American Gunner 125 grain hollow points.
Underwood’s .38 +p 125 grain bullet leaves my SW 642 at 1050 fps. I think it would perform well. I don’t practice with it for more than 5 rounds in a session but recoil is manageable and it is accurate.
I own a NIB type M&P .38spl J frame. I'm not thrilled with the snub in terms of QC, fit but I got it for deep ccw, summer use. I carry Golden Saber +P 125gr. The Remington loads are excellent quality but I'd prefer a 110gr +P. In the 1990s, 2000s I often used now defunct(2023) Magsafe brand SWAT +P+. Exotics like Glaser Safety Slugs, MagSafe either went 📉 or fell out of favor.
I’m not much of a fan of penetration any further than the average thickness of a human torso. Too much and there could be injury to others. I look more at what will hit someone like a brick and stop them. Depending on where I’m going and the weather, I carry either a 642 or Kahr .45acp with defensive ammo. I just want it to expand enough to feel like a brick and not penetrate and fly off possibly hitting someone else. The video is great. Thanks for taking the time to research and show us your results.
I dont Know if it is for the inmunization, or evolution of human beings but theres Was a time in wich People Just die with one or 2 shots and now you need 15 or 17 bullets to put them down dont understand Whats hapeneing nowadays.
If most people still carried revolvers, they would shoot the perp less times and still achieve stopping the threat. Most people, including most LEO depend on round count, rather than accuracy, sadly. I am a former LEO, with two agencies. I carried a semi-auto with 8 rounds as my duty weapon and a five shot 38 spl as my bug. Most of the other officers I worked with carried high capacity duty weapons. Nothing wrong with high capacity, but many of them could barely qualify and depended on spray and pray. I prefer to be more proficient. I hunted with a single shot a lot over the years and having less shots/rounds will make a person make what they have count. High capacity pistols and not enough training is why so many perps get shot so many times, imo. Not because it takes that many rounds to stop the threat most of the time( of coarse there are exceptions).
S&W W640 CENTENNIAL was my off-duty for 6 years too the compact 9mm became authorized. When the air weight came out you had to find a used NYPD-approved 640, or go for the new compact 9mm, the Glock 26 and Karhr CENNTINAL was CENNTINAL was
@@LA_Commander which is why we always qualified using the “ body armor drill”. Two center mass followed by one in the kisser if the suspect isn’t already going down.
USAF Security Police Vietnam era sidearm, S&W model 15 4" barrel 38 special with 130 gr fmj bullets. Today gunwriters and gun experts (?) would consider that weapon and ammo to be grossly ineffective.
Bump the weight up to 148gr, 150gr, or 158grs with the same speed as the 130gr fmj. Underwood, Buffalo bore, and Double Tap make a 150gr hardcast 38spl wadcutter that would be good in both the 2in and the 4in barrels and good for EDC.
I use the Hornady x p flex tip 110 grn. and the recoil is Nicer. I'm surprised that the Underwood perform so badly they usually perform beyond expectation.
I'm 52 & a Army veteran, 4yr; ccw user. I've owned, used a few .38spl +Ps. On duty; private security 👮🏼♂️ & personal defense. I currently have a M&P .38spl J frame. I use Golden Saber 125gr +P. Is the .38spl a great CCW caliber? No. Not in 2023 but it's decent for CQB events, 2nd gun or ccw uses.
My mom and dad liked to bow hunt for deer in Wisconsin. Once dad saw mom going after a bear with her bow. That is when he bought her an S&W .38 Special to carry when bow hunting.
carried a 38 for two years as a security guard, had to use it once against a two legged threat and 3 times against 4 legged. Did the job each time. Did I wish I had an auto? Sure, but my company was stupid and wanted us carrying 38s however it still did the job.
Thanks for the video. The ubiquity of the .38 spl is, in my opinion, a large detriment to revolvers in today's shooting world. In smokeless loads, it's a large and mostly empty case with middling energy and a high cost for ammunition compared to 9mm. I would love to see Smith and Wesson reintroduce the I-frame in 9mm as a smaller, more approachable revolver that could compete with or complement the trend of Micro Nines we see today.
Energy is mostly meaningless at handgun velocities. It makes no sense to me to go to the parabellum except for the cheap ammo. There is very little difference in effectiveness between the two and the 9mm is entirely dependant on expansion and velocity especially since factory loads are intended to be used in auto loaders. Case capacity is not really a detriment just use appropriate powders. As to expansion a 36 caliber lead cylinder travelling over 500 mph doesn't need to expand. P.S. I suppose if case efficiency is a problem you could use .38 short colt cases or get a S&W Victory model in .38 S&W. 😉😇
@@mkshffr4936 You're mostly right, but here's the parts that I find more important. Case length in a revolver will directly impact cylinder length, thus the frame length, as the frame has to have a large enough window to fit it. Smaller ammo, smaller handgun and a better competitor to the micro nine/pocket pistol market. 9mm ammunition being the cheapest centerfire around is also one of the best points, that's indeed one of the main points of a 9mm revolver. Now we get to your inaccurate claims. Any small caliber is going to need velocity, and a good amount of it, that's how energy works. If it didn't we'd never have gotten past the .22 short, as the Long and Long Rifle would have been unnecessary. If we didn't then we wouldn't need a +P version of the old 158gr LSWHP to ensure expansion for better performance, and lastly we wouldn't have the Federal 130gr HST +P for .38 special, considered by a lot of folks to be the de facto best .38 Special load, as it has a good amount of energy, reliably expands and does away with that case inefficiency by loading the JHP like a wadcutter. This is also ignoring .357 magnum, which is what you get when you fill a .38 Special case to the brim with "appropriate powders". (Yes, I know it's a little longer than a .38, but that's only so that it won't fit into a .38 revolver and go "kaboom", so we're stuck with more inefficiency thanks to that black powder heritage of .38s!) Next is where "Energy is mostly meaningless in handguns", and that typically refers to its direct effect on terminal ballistics. "Energy dump" is not really occurring in typical handgun velocities, but that does not mean that a certain amount of energy is not desirable. Your example of a ".36 caliber lead cylinder going 500 MPH", which I take to mean a wadcutter at 730-750 fps is widely considered a fairly miserable choice for self defense. Acceptable, but should be reserved as a last resort if you simply cannot handle standard pressure .38, as it's at the minimum alongside .380 FMJ. Back to the point in handgun bullet energy is that they can only disrupt tissue that they physically come in contact with, expansion is the primary method to increasing that amount of disruption. Expansion requires a certain amount of energy in order to occur, and expansion decreases the amount of penetration a bullet can achieve requiring yet more energy in turn. This is a large part of why premium JHP ammunition costs so much, it's to cover the testing and research that goes into such loads and developing bullets with controlled expansion rather than a simple lead plug with a hole in it from decades ago, plus marketing. Lot's of marketing. After all that, honestly, thank you for sticking with me through my rambling, I greatly appreciate it.
@@Kattbirb No problem I appreciate hearing (seeing?) detailed opinions even if I disagree. Variety is the spice of life. The beauty of the .38 is that you can have something like a WC at 750 fps up to over 900 fps as appropriate for your needs. Either one does a tremendous amount of damage. Another good choice is the 158gr soft LSWCHP along the lines of the FBI load. If it expands you get a little bit bigger hole if not you still get lots of penetration and tissue destruction. For something with four legs and claws you have the 180-190gr hard cast. The limited case capacity of the 9mm makes these type loads almost impossible. The 38 also has the advantage of lower pressures even in +P reducing the blast. I guess flexibility is one of the big advantages to me. If you want a hyper velocity load you can always use 110-115gr loads. Wouldn't be my choice but if you like big energy numbers it is available. Cheers. P.S. I suspect the reason 9mm revolvers are so uncommon is because so many of the folks that want high velocity jacketed hollow points want big magazines too.
Just for fun some examples of what a low tech revolver load can do. The third one is kind of interesting because it compares standard pressure (but warmer than target loads) LWCs in .38spl and .32 Long. The fourth is interesting in that it is the .38 WC driven to .357 velocities. ruclips.net/video/3mkdjCsg580/видео.html ruclips.net/video/ja_Ylk4A9bA/видео.html ruclips.net/video/lVaggcm4Egk/видео.html ruclips.net/video/O7cwfvg-2-w/видео.html
I have a Taurus 856 snubbie. I want the Taurus Executive model. Well balanced and beautiful satiny finish. I have six rounds of Federal nyclad JHP rounds in mine . I think 3 inch is a Great medium. I may get a M200 RIA in 3 inch.
Flat-tip FMJ 130gr will perform as well as anything in a 2" .38 and the recoil is far milder than 158gr semi-jacketed hollowpoint- which won't expand anyway. Pity that Federal _Nyclad_ ammo was taken off the market.
Recently purchased a Kimber K6xs, it’s a 6-round, 38 +p revolver with a covered hammer to prevent snagging. Why? Because I’m traveling more and even though I live in Polk County Florida, a very 2A friendly place to live, the possibility of running into a unfriendly DA, IMAGE, I believe can influence jury’s decisions. A 6-round revolver is reserved enough that a DA is not going to have much success labeling me a blood thirsty murderer. I do carry a speed strip for reloading because it’s flat and doesn’t tend to print. I put wooden grips on it because recoil isn’t an issue for me, Weighs 18.25 ounces loaded, and 21.5 ounces including the holster. I appendix carry. It’s so comfortable that most of the time, I have to discretely check that I’m wearing it. Got it for $599 at one of those big box stores.
Have you ever gel tested the ol' 158gr full wadcutters? Paul Harrel did the meat target, and the entry and oranges (lung tissue) ranked high on effectiveness. I would be interested to see the gel path. Thanks for your video, they are helpful, I interesting and keep up the great work good sir.
Over the years I have seen several gel tests and wad cutters always proved effective from mild target loads to hot Buffalo Bore loadings. It appears that the Winchester HBWC is one of the zippier target loads.
@@robertkwiatkoski1292 I re-watched Paul's video after reading the comments on the 158 wadcutters. He stated that we have significantly better JHP ammo nowadays, but if you have an older .38 and want to stay with standard non +p, the wadcutters will do the job. Your sis may want to try some lite or low recoil ammo. Hornady has a 38 special 90 gr FTX critical defense lite load that, though it's not the best performer, is a decent compromise between recoil and effectiveness.., again that was per Paul's video. I have tried their 110 gr FTX and had good results.
I have regretted the day I sold my Taurus 82, w/3” barrel, for that past 30+ years. I have large hands and J-frames just won’t do. I do wish that Taurus would bring that back in an executive grade.
It's much more effective now than it was 43 years ago when my dad was shot in the lung and survived. I don't think he'd have made it with the +P defensive round of today.
Why do all these guys with their rubber test always say "it didn't penatrate, it didn't go deep, etc." But then say "but I wouldn't want to get hit by it!" . I bullet, is a freaken bullet. Whether it's a 22lr, a 9mm, a 40cal. ... they all bullets. I'm new to the CCW life, and carry a Taurus 856UL (hence why I clicked on this video) and again freak out with people saying a 22lr socks or a 38 socks, but " don't wana get shot by one". 🤦♂️
All handguns, likely rifles as well, have individual strengths or weaknesses. Revolvers seem more 'touchy' than semi-automatics as they have multiple chambers, providing different - to some degree - cylinder gaps and therefore different velocities. Try a chronometer test on a single revolver and determine the average of five shots from each individual chamber. My understanding is the purpose of hollow point bullets is to enhance cavitation. This on the theory that an expanded bullet is of greater diameter and circumference, generating a larger wound channel. Cavitation. That did not seem to obtain from the mild expansion of the first +p bullet fired. Humm. My experience with .38 Special - and most other defensive handguns - is bullet weight contributes a lot to penetration, as weight encourages momentum. Also, in the early days of hollow point development, it turned out that a flat fronted bullet tended to push tissue rather than be diverted. Meaning a front faced bullet was more likely to damage a blood vessel than push around it. My own take is accuracy - putting the first bullet in the proper place - is far more important than any sort of specially designed 'trick' bullet. Also, one might shoot and chronograph individually and specifically to check the relative velocities of chambers and revolver barrel lengths. One may use standard (cheap) ammunition for this, as long as all the cartridges are the same and preferably from the same lot.
The Smith airfreight are actually 1 7/8". I've done my own tests. A .38 snub is basically the same ballistically as a short barrel 9mm. With +P in the .38.
Often times what gives a bullet it’s stopping power is the weight of the bullet. So while a 9mm is similar to .38 in diameter, often 9mm defensive ammo is not going to be as heavy as the standard 158 grain 38. So while you might not have a fast bullet, a heavy can often do as good a job as a faster but lighter one.
I remember hiking in Glacier NP Grizzly country (red warning signs and all)with a S&W model 36 w full wadcutters. Oh boy was I lucky. The Rams did line up on the road ready to charge. I jumped in my van and left quick. Moral, don’t be an idiot.
Rodney, you need a history lesson. The .38 Special has been around for far longer than 90 years. The cartridge was designed and first used in 1898. That is far longer than the 90 years you speak of. 0:37
great post sir. Very informative and meticulous. I carry a S&W 442 as a back up in the ankle and sometimes as primary if I'm too lazy to change out of my pajamas when I run to the store. This really answered my questions Thank you!! Beat wishes
I do not understand why so many discount the 38. When I was a child, that was what police and robbers would use. And the news would narrate that people got killed. Then again, people at work will go 'that will not stop somebody wearing a bullet proof vest'. If you are being attacked by a team of criminals wearing those, you have other problems.
I work security in the hospital and they brought in a patient that was shot with a 38 I know because I saw the slug it was 158 Grain round nose the dude was sitting on a park bench somebody drove by and shot him through the abdomen, hewalked to the ambulance. I think a lot of 38 specials are loaded down because of all cheap Spanish revolvers that are out there. When I reload mine I go in between 38 and 357 ballistics. No signs of pressure and the bullets will expand
I just subscribed to your channel. I have enjoyed your videos thoroughly! I have a Smith and Wesson model 638 that I dearly love. And I also have a Kimber K-6S. Love them both. Have you thought about a video on lighter loads for a small frame 357 revolver? I am not so much recoil sensitive but it is a topic that I would love to research!⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Thank you for your kind comments! I actually have given it some consideration, but, I would certainly like to test whatever it is you had in mind specifically. As I stated I do not carry a revolver and would love input from those that do. I am certainly no authority on that topic so please let me know and I will do my best. Thanks for your time and and subscription!
I have a j-frame 38 special in my concealed carry rotation. Being a private citizen the requirements are different from a police officer. My other ccw’s are dao 9mm. I have no doubt my 38 special will stop an assailant.
You should have the web of your hand between your index finger and your thumb all the way on top of the revolver's back strap when shooting DA. This will help with trigger control and recoil at the same time.
The old 38 special load was a 158 grain projectile. I think the speed of the projectile is too slow in the 38 special to provide enough velocity for expansion. Thank you for the video.
Thanks for viewing Rich and I wholeheartedly agree with you about the speed. Watch next week's video and see the performance difference between a 9mm poly bullet moving out at 1800 f.p.s and the 38 special at 11 to 1200. It is not close. As they say, speed kills. Thanks again and stay safe.
It's pretty rare to get good expansion from the 2" barrels, excepting a good +p or an xtp style tip. Most regular pressure rounds of any weight have a low rate of expansion from the shorter barrels. From what I've seen and heard though, the HP rounds DO seem to yaw/tumble in the target more than non-HP, so I'd say probably still more effective? 🤷 Hard to say with every situation being unique, but I personally feel better with the heavier projectiles due to the benefit of more hard barrier penetration 🤙
A very soft lead with large cavity can work but this issue is the reason the old hands used a bullet with a large flat nose such as WC and SWC. Also using lead rather than jacketed allows for higher velocity at the same pressure. Elmer Keith developed his LSWC for hunting large game which famously worked to great effect. That said the 200 grain LRN has been shown to work well due to tumbling.
It's interesting that you showcase and talk about the .38 from a channel named AmmoMart but when you open the website hoping to see some various .38 ammo for sale, all I see is .357, .40, and 9mm. BTW, I was also looking for some .40 ammo of which they had 2 selections of some off brand "buffalo." Am I missing something here or is your site missing something?
Exactly, I've seen the difference with the same ammo just by shooting out of a rifle compared to a snubby. The increase in velocity from the rifle barrel length creates a huge difference with regards to expansion.
@@TheCoon1975 Just an extra 75fps is a lot at low velocities. If you go from 750fps to 825fps that's 20% more muzzle energy and 20% more force being applied to the hollow point at the moment of impact. Hot 158 grain +P rounds are hitting 925fps from a 2 inch snubbie.
Something I think is always missed when talking about Snubbies, that is that they were designed, as I believe, for up close and personal use ! They don't call them, " Belly " guns for nothing ! Oswalds Gut shot is a good example ! You don't have to be an Expert marksman to be effective, just close !
Your testing was really informative...and your presentation was to the point. Thanks for performing the test, as I have a Ruger LCR .357 that I carry sometimes.
Of course 38 Special is and can be effective as a "man stopper". Especcially at real woorld CQB distances. If 357 Mag is too much for some buying a Sunbby in 38 Special would be fin. e.g. car-jacking , you are seted in driver's seat. (hopefully with no one in the passenger side seat should the unthinkable happen...and there is another threat coming from that side of the car.... I think most gunners (who have never been in an actual shootout defending.....) ignore or are unaware of real world scenarios. Or never really considered how they might play out....that most likely they will be at distances less than 10 yards/30 feet. Basically "point and shoot" distances...negating the need for a RDS or really irons....idea is to not get shot while defending (or stabbed....)why some guys make videos shooting at 50 plus yards is beyond me...heh...i don't see the point...unless they are talking about "shooting sports" and not 'defense"... Side note...37 Special Snubbies are usually affordble....a factor to consier being that after a shooting , after defending oneself or family...the police till take the gun. Better they take a gun that does that job and that we can be without for howver long it takes to process the "shooting". Why I don't hin we should use our priczed $5000 cusotm 1911 for CCW or even home defense....or any high $ firearm we treasure.... a fact many gunners sound like they are ignoring or never considered...
Which would you choose Sig Saur or Hornady ? I want the hollow point to fully flower doing a large amount of damage. Full expansion out of a smith and Wesson Snubby
Thanks for viewing and at some point in the very near future we will do that very thing. I just want to do it new gel blocks and with not as many tests. It is too difficult to keep the data straight on what did what. Love your suggestion and thanks for serving as a police officer!
You used "standard deviation" as the difference between advertised and chronographed speeds. This is not the correct usage. Standard deviation indicates that 68% of all rounds fired would have fallen within a particular range around a mean. One can calculate standard deviation with just two rounds, but I don't think that this will have a high confidence level with this small of a sample size
About the ARX penerating 9 Inches Nine inches of Peneration that means that when You shoot you attacker from His Left Torso the ARX Bullet will not reach the Heart organ for the ARX Bullet Projector to Reach into the Heart Cavity it must go further then 9 Inche in Travel from the time it enters from the Left Side of the Human Torso travel though the Center of the Human Torso and Reaches the Heart Cavity to Disable and Stop the Attacker
I always scratch my head at the fact that so many people will conceal carry a 4" semi-auto, like a Glock 19, or a 3" like a Sig 365. But if it's a revolver, it's not concealable as an EDC unless it's a 2 inch. An extra inch on a J frame makes it so much more shootable. Even a 4" K frame is an EDC with a smaller after-market or custom grip, and the right holster.
Note that barrel length is calculated differently on revolvers and semi autos. For semi's, the barrel length includes the chamber but on revolvers it doesn't include the cylinder. A 38 special round is around 1.55 inches so a 2 inch snubby has same barrel travel as 3.55 inch semi.
I was forced to use my issued .38 more than once over the course of my 30 year career (retired in ‘97) and can attest to the fact that it’s effective.
It surely does seem to be the right combination of a-lot of factors that just seem to work. In the vacuum that is scientific testing, one would not conclude it to be the formidable choice it is but to your point, real world data is the only facts that matter. Thanks for viewing.
Did you use standard pressure .38 or did you use .38 Plus P?
@@bowieupland6112 My first on duty shooting involved standard pressure, lead round nose .38 and it put the suspect down. My other two incidents were w/+P and they also did the job absent any difficulty.
@@oldcop18
Thanks.
Would you recommend plus-p over standard pressure, or are they comprable in real life scenarios?
Many people did you have to shoot to make your determination on effectiveness?
I have a Rohn 38 special derringer. Bought in 1968. It’s been stolen from me twice. I was forced to use it against a knife wielder 4 years ago. He died but my wife lived.
Did it stop him immediately
HOW THE HELL DO YOU GET THE SAME GUN STOLEN TWICE?!!!! THIS IS WHY METH ADDICTS SHOULDNT HAVE GUNS BECAUSE IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU SOLD IT AND REPORTED IT STOLEN TO SCAM THE BUYER..
@@hittinfoe383 the first time the Honolulu police got it back for me. Second time the San Diego pd retrieved it.
The person I killed was my wife’s only child. He suddenly stopped 200mg/day of Zoloft. The backlash drove him bipolar. He wanted to die. I’m 78 and DO NOT used illegal drugs.
@@atomicbill WOW!!!!! HOW ARE YOU NOT IN PRISON!! SOUNDS LIKE YOUR THE UNSTABLE ONE TO ME.. IT ABSOLUTELY MAKES NO SENSE TO ME THAT YOU THINK YOUR IN THE RIGHT.. YOUR A THUG AND A MENACE TO SOCEITY
@@atomicbill
If the public ever wakes up to what those pills have done to our society, those companies will be out of business and in jail. My condolences to all involved.
Another option which has been tested and vetted is: The standard pressure 148 grain full wadcutter. #1) The recoil is far milder than the majority of 38's. #2) Because of its sharp 90 degree angles; it deflects less than a FMJ or a LRN. #3) The wadcutters are not as expensive as most 38 carry rounds; making it a good choice for practice and carry. #4) The full wadcutter usually penetrates slightly better than JHP's; with a penetration that is usually between 12-18 inches in ballistic gelatin.
this is exactly pretty much, word for word what I always say. I have been using wadcutters now for many years and well, practice with the same loads I carry. and another benefit is they are not as loud as the other loads. ( since you are not wearing ear protection in a defensive shooting).
The hydraulic shock factor is very important!
@dougeing6521 Not in typical defensive handgun calibers. When velocity is 2200 in tissue then hydraulic shock is a factor.
watching this video, i have had 2 taurus 856 snub nose 38's. never fired either one. my hands are very arthritic at 68 yrs. i own a couple of 22's. my point being, watching the recoil, kind of made me think about controlling 2 or more quick shots. with my 22's, almost no recoil, and can put 2-3-4 shots dead center faster than a bigger caliber target acquisition. learned a lot watching this. i do like wheel guns, compared to semi autos. thanks again.
Ask Lee Harvey Ozwald about how ineffective a standard 38 special round is.
I'm going to see if his autopsy report is public. I'm curious what round Jack Ruby was using. One shot to the abdomen.
Just read it. It doesn't describe the projectile. From the damage, he had no chance, very little to none even if it happened today right in front of a level 1 trauma center. It got his spleen, aorta, and a kidney. It entered about 3 inches left of the midline beteween the 7th and 8th ribs and penetrated at a diagonal from left to right.
The scant consensus I can find is that it was probably a 158 grain lead round nose. There was 130 grain FMJ ammo in 38 Special produced during WW2 (and afterward) because you can't use expanding projectiles in combat. There was lots of surplus. It's possible Ruby had some, but who knows?
That's funny !!!!!
@@traumajockyou describe that so well !!!!!
Cops were using 38 special for protection and putting creeps to sleep forever.
The other day I got my first revolver chambered in .357(Kimber k6s dasa) and I bought some ammo inc. .38 special to use as my initial range ammo. My 7th shot was a squib, the first I have ever had. Thanks to you showing what a squib looks like in your .32 h&r video I was able to immediately recognize what had happened and did not fire a second round. Thank you for not editing that out of your video, that information saved me from a potential disaster.
I'm Brazilian and I also watch this channel, for the quality of the tests and comments. Excellent job. Congratulations from another Brazilian.
You guys gotta fight for your rights. Don't let Lula take them away.
No 2nd amendment in the Brazilian Constitution
Paul Harrell did tests found that 158 grain lead round nose had the best performance over hollow points
As a kid living in the River Quay of Kansas City I saw a man get shot in the abdomen by another man armed with a .38 snubnose, not sure if it was a hollow point or not but he spent over a month in the hospital and came home in a wheelchair wearing a colostomy bag, and that's how he spent the rest of his gangster life.
The fact he lived means it was fmj !!!
Ask Lee Harvey Ozwald about one shot from a 38 snubnose
@LA_Commander If I could I'd ask him about the shots he supposedly fired from his caracano.
@@jasonashley4579or if he fired it
@@LA_CommanderDo you mean Mark David Chapman? The guy who took down John Lennon?
A thought occurred to me on the velocity difference you first experienced between the shorter barreled Smith vs the longer barreled Taurus. Based on an experience I had between a Ruger and a Taurus I had with similar outcomes. It turned out that the cylinder gap was significantly less on the one giving the higher velocity. So, that might be another factor to throw into the mix.
ALSO..even factory loads can have powder differances,occasionally.
The Model 66 Taurus is chambered for .357 magnum. A .38 special round is shorter and the bullet will have more space to "jump" in the cylinder to reach the forcing cone. There is a little pressure/energy lost in this process. Depending on the powder used, the longer barrel will more than make up this lost pressure by the bullet staying in the barrel under pressure longer. The burn rate of the powder is a factor as is the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone. You never know what you are going to get out of a round unless you test it, as you are doing.
The .38 SPL is a very effective "Man stopper" and is still an excellent choice for a home defense gun.
I would go for a 4-inch barrel and a 158-grain projectile such as the Buffalo Bore .38 Special +P 158 Grain LSWCHP-GC
Anyone fancy being shot in the upper mass with one of these at 7 Yards wearing only a Tee-Shirt ..NO I DID NOT THINK SO!
Put it this way... You would KNOW you have been shot. I don't care how tough you think you are.
In a world full of semi-automatic 9mm guns... The .38 SPL is still worthy and a well-proven "Man stopper"
What type of grain would you recommend on a j frame with less than 2 inch barrel? Thank you.
@@CaliforniaMortgageLoans Hornady made some superb ammo ... The 110 Grain FTX Hornady critical defense is an excellent round fired from a snub-nose revolver and will give good expansion.
@@CaliforniaMortgageLoansi would not carry 110 grain projects in the .38 spl or 357 mag cartridges In any case other than absolute emergency, they are known to damage barrels much faster over time as well which is why anything under 120 grains is not recommended in any of s&w manuals as well as in general. I’ve carried and shot j frame revolvers for several years now, all fixed sight s&w 38 revolver models are factory tested and sighted in with 158 gr bullets, unless you have a less common model with adjustable sights and have messed around with them before, just use standard pressure 158 gr semi wadcutters by buffalo bore. Best round in 38 spl hands down, no need to go +p
@@ethanp7183 Thank you for sharing that with me. 158 g it is.
@@ethanp7183 thank you
I feel very well armed when I carry 38 +P in a Ruger LCR. I got a Pachmayr grip and that helps dramatically with keeping it on target.
My friend has owned, kept a NIB model Ruger LCR .38 with a red Lasermax aimer. He bought it, 2013. To my surprise the red dot, unit has still lit up, bright laser even in 2021 2022. He loads the LCR with older Cor Bon DPX 110gr +P.
Love my RIA 2" snubby, great lil concealment revolver ❤️. I prefer to carry 158gr jhp from Norma. Out of the snub-nose, the heavier projectiles seem to have better terminal ballistics due to that extra momentum 💪.
I have a r.i.a m200..and I use 125g Hornady american gunner hallow points..I also have 110g Hornady critical defense with the red flex tips...do you think I should put the critical defenses inside of the r.i.a as well as my snub nose? What's your opinion
@@istartedajoke1704 personally I would run the 125s, the lighter projectiles can have under-penetration out of a 2" barrel, especially with 38spl. I'm sure either one will stop the threat, but you will get a lil more punch with the 125, with the 110s getting less punch but more expansion (generally)
@jakerook6248 sounds good 👍 I appreciate you man..and will be putting the 125s back in the m200..!!
The 158 grain seems to be more controllable out of my air weight .357 than super hot 130 grain ammo.
Nice presentation, I still love my S & W 442 Performance Center with a Crimson trace Laser. My college aged daughters and wife can depend on it on close combat situations. i started with a wheel gun in 1980's at the New York City Police Academy, ending with a Glock 19, it is a lot more involved for semi-automatics. Now retired with a Staccato CS, flat trigger, Holosun 509T, DLC barrel. We love our guns and its potentials. Thanks for sharing.
Carrying a S&W 640 Pro with Hornady CD 38+P and I feel it’s more then adequate for self defense. I know many retired law enforcement folks who said they put more then a few bad guys in the ground with a 38. Switched from from Glock 43x and not looking back.
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate the comment on the Glock.
If a shooter has difficulty positioning all his fingers with a short-barreled revolver, the solution is often included with the firearm itself. It can quickly relocate carelessly placed fingers.
YIKES!!!
I have an ex PD 38sp S&W SA/DA model 10-10 revolver with a 4" barrel. I hand load for it and usually use 148 or 158 grain full and semi wadcutter poly coated bullets. Out of the 4" barrel they achieve good penetration and, when they hit something hard, good expansion.
When I carry it I have it loaded with full wadcutters and carry at least one Safariland Comp II speed loader with semi wadcutters as back up loads.
As the police discovered when the full wadcutter bullets were developed they can do some serious damage but pointed bullets are easier and quicker to load when you're in a hurry.
The poly coated bullets have consistent accuracy, are cheaper to load than hollow point or FMJ bullets, don't lead up the barrel like plain lead bullets, and make cleaning quicker and easier.
Ddd see dffdft
Thank you Elmer Keith for giving us the 38 SPL and 357 Mag.
I carry a Ruger security 6. With 125 grn Winchester silver tips hollow point. It has 4 inch barrel . 38 spl is very effective.
I have those from 1982 in +P. We fired those into wet City of Denver phone books from a 4” Smith. Wow they made a huge mess and were a horribly ragged 1/2” + disks. Too bad I never bothered checking the penetration at the time.
I have shot 2 white tailed deer in Pennsylvania with 38 spl. I was shooting 158 grn soft points. Hand loaded to max.charge. I was using a Ruger Blackhawk with 7 inch barrel. The bullets completely went through the deer and I found both deer within. 80 yds. With a very good blood trail. The deer were about 45-50 yards when I shot them.
I believe a wadcutter bullet moving 800 to 850 fps will pentrate deeply and create a serious wound.
and over penetrate. back off to about 700 FPS maybe 750FPS and you are good.
Dont worry so much of 38 special stopping power,in standard load 158gr LRN,it lacas this,but,but,if you can shoot it in a profficient way double action,you are gringo to have a superb and accurate gun for self defense!! Very nice video, thanks for sharing!!
Hey, who you calling a "gringo"? 😂😂😂
@@johnelder4273 Sorry! I didnt want to White gringo , l wanted to say "going"!!
@@iaidagger8278 Hey, who you calling "White"? LOL!
.38 Special in a 4inch revolver is like the western equivalent to a Makrov 9x18. 6 for sure, they tend to be powerful enough, they are effective with minimal controls.
Reason with cops abandoning them still, is that the 9mm and .40 are potent enough to offer some killing power against someone on hard drugs. They also generally offer half the firepower in round count of an assault rifle.
.38 offered a true duty strength cartridge in a medium K frame revolver. .38 +p to be specific.
I still use a Taurus .38 loaded with plus P for things…
I carry Hornady 110gr +P Critical Defense in my .38 J Frames.
That’s my favorite
Same here I have been carrying them for years now
It has been a man stopper for more than 124 years rather than just 90. 00:38
Good afternoon from Brazil. your tests and training tips are very good. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. 🇧🇷🤝🇺🇲I Love. 38
Good Morning from America! Very humbled to be watched internationally. Glad you liked the content and our exploration of the .38 special is far from over. Thanks and be well.
@@AmmoMart 🇧🇷🤝🇺🇲🙏
Charter Arms Undercover Lite 'Blue Diamond' (the most beautiful revolver ever made, sniff). I just run standard pressure Hornady American Gunner 125 grain hollow points.
Can also spin the gel block around, so you will have fresh entry channels.
Underwood’s .38 +p 125 grain bullet leaves my SW 642 at 1050 fps. I think it would perform well. I don’t practice with it for more than 5 rounds in a session but recoil is manageable and it is accurate.
I own a NIB type M&P .38spl J frame. I'm not thrilled with the snub in terms of QC, fit but I got it for deep ccw, summer use. I carry Golden Saber +P 125gr. The Remington loads are excellent quality but I'd prefer a 110gr +P. In the 1990s, 2000s I often used now defunct(2023) Magsafe brand SWAT +P+. Exotics like Glaser Safety Slugs, MagSafe either went 📉 or fell out of favor.
Yea! I carry underwood 38+p 125 grain also...and seen many balistic test where that load performed excellent
I’m not much of a fan of penetration any further than the average thickness of a human torso. Too much and there could be injury to others. I look more at what will hit someone like a brick and stop them. Depending on where I’m going and the weather, I carry either a 642 or Kahr .45acp with defensive ammo. I just want it to expand enough to feel like a brick and not penetrate and fly off possibly hitting someone else. The video is great. Thanks for taking the time to research and show us your results.
It’s not my only off duty carry but I never feel inadequately armed with my Airweight in my front pocket.
90 years ago, .38 special was already 30 years old
I dont Know if it is for the inmunization, or evolution of human beings but theres Was a time in wich People Just die with one or 2 shots and now you need 15 or 17 bullets to put them down dont understand Whats hapeneing nowadays.
Back then lead poisoning but now copper jacketed less poisoness???😅
If most people still carried revolvers, they would shoot the perp less times and still achieve stopping the threat.
Most people, including most LEO depend on round count, rather than accuracy, sadly.
I am a former LEO, with two agencies. I carried a semi-auto with 8 rounds as my duty weapon and a five shot 38 spl as my bug. Most of the other officers I worked with carried high capacity duty weapons. Nothing wrong with high capacity, but many of them could barely qualify and depended on spray and pray. I prefer to be more proficient. I hunted with a single shot a lot over the years and having less shots/rounds will make a person make what they have count.
High capacity pistols and not enough training is why so many perps get shot so many times, imo. Not because it takes that many rounds to stop the threat most of the time( of coarse there are exceptions).
Dope.
S&W W640 CENTENNIAL was my off-duty for 6 years too the compact 9mm became authorized. When the air weight came out you had to find a used NYPD-approved 640, or go for the new compact 9mm, the Glock 26 and Karhr CENNTINAL was CENNTINAL was
38 is of course useless against body armor. The 38 is very accurate making head shots pretty easy, even with one handed shooting.
Shooting in the balls is cool with thugs.
Hip Bones 😊 bullet proof 😆
Most any pistol caliber is useless against body armor.
@@LA_Commander which is why we always qualified using the “ body armor drill”. Two center mass followed by one in the kisser if the suspect isn’t already going down.
USAF Security Police Vietnam era sidearm, S&W model 15 4" barrel 38 special with 130 gr fmj bullets. Today gunwriters and gun experts (?) would consider that weapon and ammo to be grossly ineffective.
Bump the weight up to 148gr, 150gr, or 158grs with the same speed as the 130gr fmj. Underwood, Buffalo bore, and Double Tap make a 150gr hardcast 38spl wadcutter that would be good in both the 2in and the 4in barrels and good for EDC.
Oh I think 130 grain 38 special rounds are very deadly. No argument there. It's all about shot placement
@LA_Commander Shot placement means that you have the time to aim and try to place the shot where you want it to go.
@highsecurityagent8778 yeah, that's why you put in the time and effort to practice regularly
Exactly! Why go half armed.
I use the Hornady x p flex tip 110 grn. and the recoil is Nicer. I'm surprised that the Underwood perform so badly they usually perform beyond expectation.
I'm 52 & a Army veteran, 4yr; ccw user. I've owned, used a few .38spl +Ps. On duty; private security 👮🏼♂️ & personal defense. I currently have a M&P .38spl J frame. I use Golden Saber 125gr +P. Is the .38spl a great CCW caliber? No. Not in 2023 but it's decent for CQB events, 2nd gun or ccw uses.
My mom and dad liked to bow hunt for deer in Wisconsin. Once dad saw mom going after a bear with her bow. That is when he bought her an S&W .38 Special to carry when bow hunting.
carried a 38 for two years as a security guard, had to use it once against a two legged threat and 3 times against 4 legged. Did the job each time. Did I wish I had an auto? Sure, but my company was stupid and wanted us carrying 38s however it still did the job.
Good job (and with a real life demonstration)!
Thanks for the video.
The ubiquity of the .38 spl is, in my opinion, a large detriment to revolvers in today's shooting world. In smokeless loads, it's a large and mostly empty case with middling energy and a high cost for ammunition compared to 9mm.
I would love to see Smith and Wesson reintroduce the I-frame in 9mm as a smaller, more approachable revolver that could compete with or complement the trend of Micro Nines we see today.
Whoa, that is a really interesting idea and great insight into the case design of the 38 special. Thanks for commenting and sharing your knowledge!
Energy is mostly meaningless at handgun velocities. It makes no sense to me to go to the parabellum except for the cheap ammo. There is very little difference in effectiveness between the two and the 9mm is entirely dependant on expansion and velocity especially since factory loads are intended to be used in auto loaders.
Case capacity is not really a detriment just use appropriate powders. As to expansion a 36 caliber lead cylinder travelling over 500 mph doesn't need to expand.
P.S. I suppose if case efficiency is a problem you could use .38 short colt cases or get a S&W Victory model in .38 S&W. 😉😇
@@mkshffr4936 You're mostly right, but here's the parts that I find more important.
Case length in a revolver will directly impact cylinder length, thus the frame length, as the frame has to have a large enough window to fit it.
Smaller ammo, smaller handgun and a better competitor to the micro nine/pocket pistol market. 9mm ammunition being the cheapest centerfire around is also one of the best points, that's indeed one of the main points of a 9mm revolver.
Now we get to your inaccurate claims. Any small caliber is going to need velocity, and a good amount of it, that's how energy works. If it didn't we'd never have gotten past the .22 short, as the Long and Long Rifle would have been unnecessary. If we didn't then we wouldn't need a +P version of the old 158gr LSWHP to ensure expansion for better performance, and lastly we wouldn't have the Federal 130gr HST +P for .38 special, considered by a lot of folks to be the de facto best .38 Special load, as it has a good amount of energy, reliably expands and does away with that case inefficiency by loading the JHP like a wadcutter. This is also ignoring .357 magnum, which is what you get when you fill a .38 Special case to the brim with "appropriate powders". (Yes, I know it's a little longer than a .38, but that's only so that it won't fit into a .38 revolver and go "kaboom", so we're stuck with more inefficiency thanks to that black powder heritage of .38s!)
Next is where "Energy is mostly meaningless in handguns", and that typically refers to its direct effect on terminal ballistics. "Energy dump" is not really occurring in typical handgun velocities, but that does not mean that a certain amount of energy is not desirable. Your example of a ".36 caliber lead cylinder going 500 MPH", which I take to mean a wadcutter at 730-750 fps is widely considered a fairly miserable choice for self defense. Acceptable, but should be reserved as a last resort if you simply cannot handle standard pressure .38, as it's at the minimum alongside .380 FMJ. Back to the point in handgun bullet energy is that they can only disrupt tissue that they physically come in contact with, expansion is the primary method to increasing that amount of disruption. Expansion requires a certain amount of energy in order to occur, and expansion decreases the amount of penetration a bullet can achieve requiring yet more energy in turn. This is a large part of why premium JHP ammunition costs so much, it's to cover the testing and research that goes into such loads and developing bullets with controlled expansion rather than a simple lead plug with a hole in it from decades ago, plus marketing. Lot's of marketing.
After all that, honestly, thank you for sticking with me through my rambling, I greatly appreciate it.
@@Kattbirb No problem I appreciate hearing (seeing?) detailed opinions even if I disagree. Variety is the spice of life.
The beauty of the .38 is that you can have something like a WC at 750 fps up to over 900 fps as appropriate for your needs. Either one does a tremendous amount of damage.
Another good choice is the 158gr soft LSWCHP along the lines of the FBI load. If it expands you get a little bit bigger hole if not you still get lots of penetration and tissue destruction.
For something with four legs and claws you have the 180-190gr hard cast. The limited case capacity of the 9mm makes these type loads almost impossible. The 38 also has the advantage of lower pressures even in +P reducing the blast.
I guess flexibility is one of the big advantages to me. If you want a hyper velocity load you can always use 110-115gr loads. Wouldn't be my choice but if you like big energy numbers it is available.
Cheers.
P.S. I suspect the reason 9mm revolvers are so uncommon is because so many of the folks that want high velocity jacketed hollow points want big magazines too.
Just for fun some examples of what a low tech revolver load can do. The third one is kind of interesting because it compares standard pressure (but warmer than target loads) LWCs in .38spl and .32 Long. The fourth is interesting in that it is the .38 WC driven to .357 velocities.
ruclips.net/video/3mkdjCsg580/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/ja_Ylk4A9bA/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/lVaggcm4Egk/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/O7cwfvg-2-w/видео.html
I have a Taurus 856 snubbie. I want the Taurus Executive model. Well balanced and beautiful satiny finish. I have six rounds of Federal nyclad JHP rounds in mine . I think 3 inch is a Great medium. I may get a M200 RIA in 3 inch.
Buying knock off gun like Taurus is like buying anything else knock off...they are not quality and more junk than good.
I really enjoy your channel clear concise very informative no monkey business. Keep on keeping on bud💯
I've found the 100 grain Hornaday standard pressure Critical Defense is the best compromise of performance and shootability I've found.
Flat-tip FMJ 130gr will perform as well as anything in a 2" .38 and the recoil is far milder than 158gr semi-jacketed hollowpoint- which won't expand anyway. Pity that Federal _Nyclad_ ammo was taken off the market.
I still got a box of the later production 125gr nyclads. Standard pressure. I still use them.
my congrats: yr reports are always nice and well data-based with history and balistic figures
Recently purchased a Kimber K6xs, it’s a 6-round, 38 +p revolver with a covered hammer to prevent snagging. Why? Because I’m traveling more and even though I live in Polk County Florida, a very 2A friendly place to live, the possibility of running into a unfriendly DA, IMAGE, I believe can influence jury’s decisions. A 6-round revolver is reserved enough that a DA is not going to have much success labeling me a blood thirsty murderer. I do carry a speed strip for reloading because it’s flat and doesn’t tend to print. I put wooden grips on it because recoil isn’t an issue for me, Weighs 18.25 ounces loaded, and 21.5 ounces including the holster. I appendix carry. It’s so comfortable that most of the time, I have to discretely check that I’m wearing it. Got it for $599 at one of those big box stores.
I added a set of PACHMYR round but grips on my 642 and it gives alot more grip to it.
Have you ever gel tested the ol' 158gr full wadcutters? Paul Harrel did the meat target, and the entry and oranges (lung tissue) ranked high on effectiveness. I would be interested to see the gel path.
Thanks for your video, they are helpful, I interesting and keep up the great work good sir.
reg 38 or 38+p for Paul's review?? Sis has problems with recoil. Gun smith recomended 38 wadcutter. thank you.
Over the years I have seen several gel tests and wad cutters always proved effective from mild target loads to hot Buffalo Bore loadings. It appears that the Winchester HBWC is one of the zippier target loads.
@@robertkwiatkoski1292 I re-watched Paul's video after reading the comments on the 158 wadcutters. He stated that we have significantly better JHP ammo nowadays, but if you have an older .38 and want to stay with standard non +p, the wadcutters will do the job. Your sis may want to try some lite or low recoil ammo. Hornady has a 38 special 90 gr FTX critical defense lite load that, though it's not the best performer, is a decent compromise between recoil and effectiveness.., again that was per Paul's video. I have tried their 110 gr FTX and had good results.
I have regretted the day I sold my Taurus 82, w/3” barrel, for that past 30+ years. I have large hands and J-frames just won’t do. I do wish that Taurus would bring that back in an executive grade.
It's much more effective now than it was 43 years ago when my dad was shot in the lung and survived. I don't think he'd have made it with the +P defensive round of today.
Why do all these guys with their rubber test always say "it didn't penatrate, it didn't go deep, etc." But then say "but I wouldn't want to get hit by it!" . I bullet, is a freaken bullet. Whether it's a 22lr, a 9mm, a 40cal. ... they all bullets. I'm new to the CCW life, and carry a Taurus 856UL (hence why I clicked on this video) and again freak out with people saying a 22lr socks or a 38 socks, but " don't wana get shot by one". 🤦♂️
Good gun
I have. M200. 38. A Keeper
All handguns, likely rifles as well, have individual strengths or weaknesses. Revolvers seem more 'touchy' than semi-automatics as they have multiple chambers, providing different - to some degree - cylinder gaps and therefore different velocities. Try a chronometer test on a single revolver and determine the average of five shots from each individual chamber.
My understanding is the purpose of hollow point bullets is to enhance cavitation. This on the theory that an expanded bullet is of greater diameter and circumference, generating a larger wound channel. Cavitation. That did not seem to obtain from the mild expansion of the first +p bullet fired. Humm.
My experience with .38 Special - and most other defensive handguns - is bullet weight contributes a lot to penetration, as weight encourages momentum. Also, in the early days of hollow point development, it turned out that a flat fronted bullet tended to push tissue rather than be diverted. Meaning a front faced bullet was more likely to damage a blood vessel than push around it.
My own take is accuracy - putting the first bullet in the proper place - is far more important than any sort of specially designed 'trick' bullet.
Also, one might shoot and chronograph individually and specifically to check the relative velocities of chambers and revolver barrel lengths. One may use standard (cheap) ammunition for this, as long as all the cartridges are the same and preferably from the same lot.
get/reload some 200 grain 'Super Police' loads, I carry 3 of them in my taurus 85 followed by 2 P+ EXTRA hard, hard cast Kieth 158s
stay away from 'trick' bullets..
The Smith airfreight are actually
1 7/8". I've done my own tests. A .38 snub is basically the same ballistically as a short barrel 9mm.
With +P in the .38.
Often times what gives a bullet it’s stopping power is the weight of the bullet. So while a 9mm is similar to .38 in diameter, often 9mm defensive ammo is not going to be as heavy as the standard 158 grain 38.
So while you might not have a fast bullet, a heavy can often do as good a job as a faster but lighter one.
I remember hiking in Glacier NP Grizzly country (red warning signs and all)with a S&W model 36 w full wadcutters. Oh boy was I lucky. The Rams did line up on the road ready to charge. I jumped in my van and left quick. Moral, don’t be an idiot.
Portei alguns anos o taurus 851 em 38 spl....revolver top para para ocultar
Excellent caliber!!
Rodney, you need a history lesson. The .38 Special has been around for far longer than 90 years. The cartridge was designed and first used in 1898. That is far longer than the 90 years you speak of. 0:37
great post sir. Very informative and meticulous. I carry a S&W 442 as a back up in the ankle and sometimes as primary if I'm too lazy to change out of my pajamas when I run to the store. This really answered my questions
Thank you!!
Beat wishes
Underwood Extreme and Ammo the like . Has renewed the 38spl Snubby. Great Ballistics. Sells fast. if you see the Ammo buy it.
For a moment I thought I was going to see a thumb being blown away by the way he was holding that 642
For testing purposes, it seems like it would be useful to have a stool and some sand bags or other type of rest.
I do not understand why so many discount the 38. When I was a child, that was what police and robbers would use. And the news would narrate that people got killed. Then again, people at work will go 'that will not stop somebody wearing a bullet proof vest'.
If you are being attacked by a team of criminals wearing those, you have other problems.
38 spcl.put a lot of men underground.weak against 357. Magnum. I like full size 9 mm. Loaded critical duty.
I work security in the hospital and they brought in a patient that was shot with a 38 I know because I saw the slug it was 158 Grain round nose the dude was sitting on a park bench somebody drove by and shot him through the abdomen, hewalked to the ambulance. I think a lot of 38 specials are loaded down because of all cheap Spanish revolvers that are out there. When I reload mine I go in between 38 and 357 ballistics. No signs of pressure and the bullets will expand
I just subscribed to your channel. I have enjoyed your videos thoroughly! I have a Smith and Wesson model 638 that I dearly love. And I also have a Kimber K-6S. Love them both. Have you thought about a video on lighter loads for a small frame 357 revolver? I am not so much recoil sensitive but it is a topic that I would love to research!⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Thank you for your kind comments! I actually have given it some consideration, but, I would certainly like to test whatever it is you had in mind specifically. As I stated I do not carry a revolver and would love input from those that do. I am certainly no authority on that topic so please let me know and I will do my best. Thanks for your time and and subscription!
I carry a Ruger LCR in 38 special +p loaded with Buffalo Bore 158 grain SWCHP.
Very informative!
United States Air Force used the smith and Wesson model 15 for many years and so have I 😎
I have a j-frame 38 special in my concealed carry rotation. Being a private citizen the requirements are different from a police officer. My other ccw’s are dao 9mm. I have no doubt my 38 special will stop an assailant.
You should have the web of your hand between your index finger and your thumb all the way on top of the revolver's back strap when shooting DA. This will help with trigger control and recoil at the same time.
The old 38 special load was a 158 grain projectile. I think the speed of the projectile is too slow in the 38 special to provide enough velocity for expansion. Thank you for the video.
Thanks for viewing Rich and I wholeheartedly agree with you about the speed. Watch next week's video and see the performance difference between a 9mm poly bullet moving out at 1800 f.p.s and the 38 special at 11 to 1200. It is not close. As they say, speed kills. Thanks again and stay safe.
It's pretty rare to get good expansion from the 2" barrels, excepting a good +p or an xtp style tip. Most regular pressure rounds of any weight have a low rate of expansion from the shorter barrels. From what I've seen and heard though, the HP rounds DO seem to yaw/tumble in the target more than non-HP, so I'd say probably still more effective? 🤷 Hard to say with every situation being unique, but I personally feel better with the heavier projectiles due to the benefit of more hard barrier penetration 🤙
A very soft lead with large cavity can work but this issue is the reason the old hands used a bullet with a large flat nose such as WC and SWC. Also using lead rather than jacketed allows for higher velocity at the same pressure.
Elmer Keith developed his LSWC for hunting large game which famously worked to great effect. That said the 200 grain LRN has been shown to work well due to tumbling.
It's interesting that you showcase and talk about the .38 from a channel named AmmoMart but when you open the website hoping to see some various .38 ammo for sale, all I see is .357, .40, and 9mm. BTW, I was also looking for some .40 ammo of which they had 2 selections of some off brand "buffalo." Am I missing something here or is your site missing something?
The problem with bullets not expanding is the velocity
Exactly, I've seen the difference with the same ammo just by shooting out of a rifle compared to a snubby. The increase in velocity from the rifle barrel length creates a huge difference with regards to expansion.
@@TheCoon1975 Just an extra 75fps is a lot at low velocities. If you go from 750fps to 825fps that's 20% more muzzle energy and 20% more force being applied to the hollow point at the moment of impact.
Hot 158 grain +P rounds are hitting 925fps from a 2 inch snubbie.
Something I think is always missed when talking about Snubbies, that is that they were designed, as I believe, for up close and personal use !
They don't call them,
" Belly " guns for nothing !
Oswalds Gut shot is a good example !
You don't have to be an Expert marksman to be effective, just close !
You can be a pretty good shot from a distance. With a lot of practice of course but still
@@laurianoherrera6722 Happy New Year !
I think I hear some Snubbies in the distance ?
Lol !
👍😉
@@sleeve8651 I think I hear them too 😂 God bless that 38 special. Happy new years
Your testing was really informative...and your presentation was to the point. Thanks for performing the test, as I have a Ruger LCR .357 that I carry sometimes.
The round fired at about 11:15 mushroomed cause it hit the OSB & bounced back up.
The videos thumbnail, though 😂 Quite the forward lean for a .38 😂
Try a cylinder dump with a Smith 360 with Federal HST 125gr Limited Recoil(Ha, ha, ha). Be careful you might break a finger and that is not a stretch.
Of course 38 Special is and can be effective as a "man stopper". Especcially at real woorld CQB distances. If 357 Mag is too much for some buying a Sunbby in 38 Special would be fin. e.g. car-jacking , you are seted in driver's seat. (hopefully with no one in the passenger side seat should the unthinkable happen...and there is another threat coming from that side of the car....
I think most gunners (who have never been in an actual shootout defending.....) ignore or are unaware of real world scenarios. Or never really considered how they might play out....that most likely they will be at distances less than 10 yards/30 feet. Basically "point and shoot" distances...negating the need for a RDS or really irons....idea is to not get shot while defending (or stabbed....)why some guys make videos shooting at 50 plus yards is beyond me...heh...i don't see the point...unless they are talking about "shooting sports" and not 'defense"...
Side note...37 Special Snubbies are usually affordble....a factor to consier being that after a shooting , after defending oneself or family...the police till take the gun. Better they take a gun that does that job and that we can be without for howver long it takes to process the "shooting". Why I don't hin we should use our priczed $5000 cusotm 1911 for CCW or even home defense....or any high $ firearm we treasure.... a fact many gunners sound like they are ignoring or never considered...
It works just fine unless the person is on pcp and weights about 250 pounds.
The 38 usually is a 158 grain bullet why are you using basically 9 mm bullet weights
I carry my 1974 gen Colt Detective .38 have for years. I absolutely have no qualms about any part of that.
Great videos. Thank you
I mean, that's the caliber Mark David Chapman used to take down John Lennon.
Arthur Breamer shot George Wallace on the campaign stop in Maryland in 1969.
Very informative. Thank you
excellent
Good job❤❤❤
Which would you choose Sig Saur or Hornady ? I want the hollow point to fully flower doing a large amount of damage. Full expansion out of a smith and Wesson Snubby
Half jacket hollow point
2" below 1000ft/sec won't open enough to matter. Wadcutters would be better
You should have used some old school loads form Buffalo 🐃 bore
Thanks for viewing and at some point in the very near future we will do that very thing. I just want to do it new gel blocks and with not as many tests. It is too difficult to keep the data straight on what did what. Love your suggestion and thanks for serving as a police officer!
I'm pretty sure I saw 3 of the ARX come out the side 😮
You used "standard deviation" as the difference between advertised and chronographed speeds. This is not the correct usage. Standard deviation indicates that 68% of all rounds fired would have fallen within a particular range around a mean. One can calculate standard deviation with just two rounds, but I don't think that this will have a high confidence level with this small of a sample size
What's the distance between the gun and the ballistic block here? 10 feet?
About the ARX penerating 9 Inches Nine inches of Peneration that means that when You shoot you attacker from His Left Torso the ARX Bullet will not reach the Heart organ for the ARX Bullet Projector to Reach into the Heart Cavity it must go further then 9 Inche in Travel from the time it enters from the Left Side of the Human Torso travel though the Center of the Human Torso and Reaches the Heart Cavity to Disable and Stop the Attacker
I always scratch my head at the fact that so many people will conceal carry a 4" semi-auto, like a Glock 19, or a 3" like a Sig 365. But if it's a revolver, it's not concealable as an EDC unless it's a 2 inch. An extra inch on a J frame makes it so much more shootable. Even a 4" K frame is an EDC with a smaller after-market or custom grip, and the right holster.
Note that barrel length is calculated differently on revolvers and semi autos. For semi's, the barrel length includes the chamber but on revolvers it doesn't include the cylinder. A 38 special round is around 1.55 inches so a 2 inch snubby has same barrel travel as 3.55 inch semi.
@Torter23 good point. 👍
My edc is a S&W M10 4 INCH LOADED WITH FBI LOADS. NUFF SAID 😊