Note. @36:22 the Time to add each 10% battery chart is incorrect. On the 20% to 80% recordings it took 8 minutes to go from 70% to 80% on both stations, not 16 minutes as shown. The total time as 34 mnutes on both charging sessions. Hat tip to e-redj for noticing!
The full charging time chart still shows 45 minutes for 10-80% or 223 EPA miles (FWD) or 200 EPA miles (AWD). Adding this number of miles in a Hyundai/Kia or the new Tesla highland would take half that time (or less). Even my crazy inefficient 2024 R1T DM large can pull more range in less time than the Chevy! Tom, you talk to these guys.... why can't GM get EV charging right? For years they sold the Bolt brothers with crippled fast charging and now they seem to be once again introducing a vehicle with charging that is two generations behind. Why does GM struggle so much with this?
I feel like you really need to use an OBD dongle and ”Car Scanner” to also follow along with the battery temperature and module temperature during charging. You should be able to precisely determine the temperature threshold where de-rating will happen.
CarScanner and an OBD would allow monitoring the battery temperature. It also shows SOC, coolant pump RPM, DC volts, DC amps, and kW on my Bolt. It sounds like Tom is estimating the current draw based on the SOC% and a known battery voltage value. Maybe Carscanner can't be used for commercial endeavors. Other than that, it seems odd not to use it. I don't like the logging in CarScanner. I need to write a coalescing program to capture all of the data on one line. Tom could use video capture or screenshots.
So, this EV will charge even worse in the Texas/Arizona summers? Ouch! Between, Great work on those charts! Simple to read, quick to gather information, not over cluttered, clean charts, and also doing the 0-100% and 20-80% charges, excellent work on gathering as much data as possible. Consider me impressed!
Was gonna come in guns blazing and telling you to stop listening to Kyle, and that DC speeds don't mean as much as he says. But then I watched and realise...yeah...that really is kind of slow. Maybe 150 kW is still okay for a 2024 model year vehicle, but only if you really can use 150 kW. Thanks very much for all the time you're spending and the good reporting you're doing for us.
The speed is not as important as the curve.. On that 350 session.. imagine if it did not de-rate.. and just had a smooth curve down to meet the 80% drop off curve. Would be a totally different result. BTW Kyle talks about the curve all the time.. and that peak speeds don't matter that much.
@@kens97sto171 When I road trip, because I drive a Tesla, I regularly arrive at a charger with 5% or sometimes less. (never concerned about them not working) In fact I sometimes speed up to arrive lower and maybe save a few minutes off my drive time. When you start at 5% you get that peak 250 until like 20% then I'm still at 170 by 50%. The best part about those peaks though is, my home is 40 miles from a super charger North or South. 45 miles charging at 1100mph is like 2-3 minutes, and I finish charging at home. It's literally faster than gas sometimes. This car charges too slow for me, but I'm sure people who don't road trip will be interested. It's just a bigger bolt in my opinion.
For the record, Kyle and I don't ever "listen" to each other. We're good friends and respect each other's opinions (and often call each other to get thier thoughts on something) but we always form and report our own findings and opinions.
Tom owns three of the slowest DC charging vehicles in their class. Bolt, Lightning, Equinox. I bought my F150 Lightning after seeing all of the great reviews including Tom’s.
True. This highlights how unimportant DC fast charge times are for many folks. I only need to use a DC fast charger once every month or so. I don't mind waiting 15-20 minutes longer when I do if I have to. But those who rely on DC fast chargers may look for faster charging options.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney For people who do cross country road trips, you cant go wrong with a Tesla. Even the standard range 3 does 170KW and it matters way more when it's miles per min are numbers are just huge. This is 1 thing where Lucid wins on paper, but in practical use and cross country races Tesla is still right there for less money. I would love a Mach-E if they could just charge faster, maybe clean up the app a bit.
Definitely I don't have an EV yet but I plan for my next car to be one but I'm gonna keep my jeep going for at least another year or two, though personally I probably won't get a ford purely because their software is garbage
Hi Tom, thanks for sharing and providing your analysis! I have a 2024 Nissan Ariya Platinum that can charge up to 130 kilowatts. I performed my own testing on a EVGO 350 kilowatt fast charger and 100 kilowatt. I found that on the 350, I got to 127 max when I was around 20 percent and then gradually stepped down. It took about 28 minutes to go from 20 to 80 percent. Whereas on the 100 kilowatt the max was 75 and gradually decreased and took 40 minutes. I have noticed that the Ariya has been pretty consistent on the charging speed and step down voltage/kilowatt charging.
Great Data Tom and thanks for clear diagrams and charts. It is easy to follow even for those who are not used to looking at such things. Well done! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Great video and thank you for pointing out the issues with the EVEQ charging system, hope that GM take them into considerations. One of the issues I have with the video is making it a real-life scenario during long weekend trips. The 2 scenarios I'm looking for are a 150-to-300-mile range (or a range that tests the EV maximum EPA estimates) and scenario 2 is driving a longer trip 300-to-500-mile. While charging speed is important, most EVs owners have some access to home or work charging to replenish the miles used on daily or weekly basis as overnight charging is adequate to keep the EVs at 80%. What I would like to see is covering the scenarios above with multiple EVs and evaluate the total trip time, including charging time, the level of comfort in the ride, actual time lost due to waiting on charging, especially if not taking a break for bathroom runs and snacks/meals. From a theoretical perspective, using ABRP planner, the EVEQ is almost identical to Tesla MYLR from a total trip time perspective for a 300-mile road trip while the Ionics 5 RWD LR, takes 20 more minutes (assuming 100% state of charge leaving and arriving at 10%)!
@@PhillyZeitgeist Yes, they did, but your Lyriq should have a higher pack voltage due to the additional 2 (total of 12) modules and that should allow your Lyriq to charge faster than the Equinox with 10 modules. Interesting!
@@ericm4840 Should. But, it doesn't. I've never seen 190kW at an DCFC charger, even under ideal conditions (battery pre-conditioned, ambient temperature, starting below 20%, etc.). Closest has been 178kW at an EVgo charger. And after a few minutes, the charging curve drops... just like in Tom's video. Never have seen my wife's Model Y do that.
So what I take from this is that for the Equinox, if you’re charging up to 80% it makes no difference whether you use 150kW or 350kW. In fact you might even charge quicker on the 150 due to thermal limiting on the 350. So you might as well just use the 150 and save the 350 chargers for vehicles that can take advantage of the higher speed. However, if you *have* to charge all the way up to 100% then the 350 will save you several minutes of charging time to reach 100%
I saw more consistent speeds on a 350 than he did. Mine got up to 150kwh and dropped down to the 120s for most of the charging session (20% to 60% range) and this was in 110 degree weather.
I haven’t had much luck on 150kW chargers. Some of them have trouble putting put the amperage needed to charge at a decent speed with the equinox’s pack voltage being so low
You nailed it stating people want a consistent/reliable charging experience even if it’s a slower speed to manage thermals better. It’s crazy how the charging curve can be all over the place with no rhyme or reason. Can Chevy really fix this with a software update? I do have to say the few times I’ve fast charged I saw more consistent speeds on a 350kw charger. It would jump to 150 for about 10 minutes and then drop down into the 120s. That was in Barstow/Bakersfield 110+ heat going from about 20-60%. I did have one time where I got throttled to 30kw after about 8 minutes but I unplugged and plugged into a different charger and went back to the 120s.
I never precondition my Rivian R1T before fast charging(In the summer here in Arizona...) because it'll charge at 220kW for 3 minutes and then derate the EA chargers down to 40kW and it never picks up again. I love it when the charger only gives 150kW because it stays at 150kW all the way to about 60% and it's a lot better than thermal throttling..
TOM! Another great video. Wow this is an interesting one. I think it puts a little polish on the idea that A 150 kW max car should never use a 350 kW charger. It’s a small piece of the puzzle that is the EV charging landscape. It seems like there’s always something new to learn. Can you start a series on EVSE that do not have a built-in cable. Or it would be great to see a series that focuses on better charging options for multifamily, housing, and public charging options. Best for small businesses. Tesla has their destination network, which is great, but they ask you to install a minimum of six destination chargers as part of their application process. I’m sure they just don’t want to have Tesla drivers show up to a small location expecting a charge and then there are no available destination chargers if the business has only installed one or two, and it seems reasonable that if you could just buy a Tesla wall connector and add it to the destination charger map, it would be overrun with single units Everywhere as small businesses game system by getting on the national map with only $1000 investment. I have friends in the middle of nowhere in Kansas and they want to start offering EV charging, but I know it’s complicated based on states that don’t allow you to sell electricity unless you are a large scale provider. I think a solution would be to rent the double ended cables as needed for a small charge. I feel like it would also help keep the units much more undamaged. Maybe you could sell an online course for $25-$100 that explains everything someone would need to start that small business. I know you had a lot of problems with your DC fast charging equipment years ago, but maybe there are new products on the market that could really help a small business at least offer this as an amenity
If this car started at $$28k for the base model to $38k for the top, then the slow DCFC could be acceptable. At $35k+, I wouldn't trade my Bolt in for the Equinox.
It was a mistake to cancel the Bolt as I’ve rented several and it’s a great EV for city driving. Advantage of Equinox is size, only important if you need more cargo space.
If my math is correct you can add about 150-175 miles of range in 1/2 hour. Given the 300 mile range of the Equinox, you can drive 4 hours then break for 1/2 hour to go to the bathroom, stretch your legs, charge the car, eat a snack. So I would say a 500-550 mile road trip is comfortably doable in the Equinox. Anything over that would make the slow charge times a problem. Would be interesting to know who actually takes a road trip where the drive more than 500 miles in a day.
But am guessing hitting thermal limits is not ideal. GM needs to respond - some concern that the de-rate being seen indicates getting very close to stressing the battery.
I recently took a trip in a LYRIQ and only charged on EVgo 350s. I got good speeds at all but one, where there was a nose dive like you showed on the 350, that slowly recovered. Was a bit of a bummer, but we were eating lunch, so actually kinda nice. Anyway. GREAT video. Terrific content. Loved watching.
Based on personal experience with the Lyriq, your ok charges (no Ultium dip) were due to not dipping nearly as low as SOC as Tom did. Most people will hover around 20%, your road trip didn't go nearly so low (assuming you mean your recent video). Will be interesting to see all of Tom's upcoming charge sessions and differing SOC's. But might be hard to fully qualify given different ambient temperatures.
I have the same Equinox EV 2RS as you Tom. I’m not seeing the thermal throttling when using the EVGO 350’s. Today I went from 40% to 80% in 17 minutes. When the session ended at 80% I was still pulling 91kW. It was a steady decline from 156kW. Did you precondition the battery? I don’t believe you mentioned that. This may seem strange, but I feel it charges better today than it did when I first got it. I have 12,500 miles so far. Look forward to your future Equinox videos.
I was just going to comment the same thing. I have a LT Blazer EV with the 10 module Ultium Battery as well (85KWh). The biggest station I have charged at was a 200KW rated station at 350A. I used the precondition function upon navigation to a DCFC so it would have fully pre-conditioned. I charged from 14% to 88% and I was pulling a similar 110+KW at about 50% SOC and I was pulling 88KW at 80%. The ambient temperature was 86F (30C).
Tom, the other big users of DCFC are folks who cannot L2/L1 charge where they park. So the speed of fast charging can be a big factor to their buying decisions as well. It’s a less than ideal (and far more expensive) way to go, but many folks have no access to charging while at home/work/commuting. It can make a difference between 15-20 minute sessions (same as a busy gas station) or taking well over an hour or more. I’ve found that when cars charge slow they are more often (ironically) fully charged to avoid having to charge more often.. people will go eat dinner, or shop, and just leave the car at the DC charger for an hour or more.
You're 100% correct. An EV isn't the best choice for everybody, and if you cannot charge at home or work, you need to make sure the charging times will fit into your schedule, as well as the available charging locations and their usual utilization rate (are they frequently full). The Equinox will likely need 10-20 minutes longer to charge than other comparable EVs, so if that extra time waiting each week is a problem, then I wouldn't recommend getting it. However, currently, only a very small percentage of EV owners can't charge at home or work. That is going to change, though, as adoption rates increase. Owners need to do their research and know what they are getting into before buying and finding out it doesn't work for them. I hope my videos like this help people better understand how long they will need to wait when charging.
Thermal limiting is also taking place in the EVSE. I’ve noticed this more on my Lightning at EVGo vs EA. Now using Tesla SC exclusively on road trips, especially towing. Windings in the transformers of the different chargers are different. The Tesla Supercharger has been the most consistent for me in trips from MI to FL. 🤷🏻♂️
First year new electric platform. Software updates will address this in the future. I don't have a Equinox EV but am looking at one. However, the lease rates in upstate NY are better on a 2024 Hyundai Ioniq 5 SEL which have a proven charging platform with E-GMP. I'm really liking what GM is doing with this platform and will figure this out.
It is nearly impossible to go wrong with any of the Hyundai/Genesis/Kia E-GMP platform cars. They are really solid all ‘rounders. I have had it since the end of July 2023 and there are about 33,000 miles on it now. The car has performed flawlessly.
What a cheapskate like me noted was the discrepency between the cost. I am not so important that I would ever pay the much higher cost of the 359KW charging station.
What was the ambient temperature for each of these charges, and how long did you precondition? Both seem to be a big factor in whether you see the thermal derate. Hope GM responds to this - all the Ultium vehicles showing this dreaded 'Ultium dip' when charging at high power, low SOC, and mid to hot ambient temperature. People in very hot climates seeing even worse, with propulsion limited and turtle warning lights, and A/C switching to blowing warm air during the charging.
So maybe it's just me, but I actually don't see the problem here. Yes, there are some improvements and tweaks that need to be made to the charging profile, but given how fresh the model is, it's not bad. For reference, if you plugged these numbers into Out of Spec's "10% Challenge," the Chevy Equinox EV would still be on par with or even beat a number of EVs with "better" charging profiles like the Tesla Model Y and VW ID4. Also, for a model that is being pushed for current and former Chevy Bolt EV owners, you try selling those customers on the idea that charging from 20% to 80% in 35 minutes or driving 500 miles at freeway speeds with only two 20-minute charging stops is somehow "bad." For people who rarely if ever drive more than 300 miles in a day (at least 75% of the population according to BTS data), this really is a non-issue.
It’s not just you. People are overly & hyper critical of *gm’s* Ultium platform in their very first generation and with their very first models. They simply won’t get the same grace that Rivian, Tesla, nor Ford has received even for the same exact things like ridding their vehicles of Apple CarPlay. People are extra critical of General Motors in everything they do and this seems to be a problem for reviewers. I think reviewers have higher expectations for GM than they do for Tesla and Ford but that will only further the gap making *gm’s* products better than the competition as time goes on.
@@G-Rated Yes, there's definitely an anti-GM bias in the EV space. Some of it is innocent and due to people relying on bad information, but some of it seems to be on purpose. Munro and Associates literally ignored or omitted most of the innovations and key strengths of Ultium when they did their battery teardown, and if that's your only source of information, you'd think that GM is 10 years behind the industry.
By about 4:00 I'm already imagining the conversations between Chevy drivers and the "helpful" Taycan/Lucid/KIA drivers waiting to charge. OK, continuing the video now, but I'll be cringing the whole time thinking of the confusion this is going to cause. I'm sure GM had a reason to go this route, but the ONE thing this nation didn't need was more confusion and controversy about charging. EDIT: OK, watched. I'm sure GM will work on that wild charge curve. Great to see that website. Yes, I keep screenshots for planning trips. I have a product review request but will send that separately.
Not really sure that its surprising to see that 350 is as "slow" as 150. Everything I have read/learned about Equinox EV so far (from this channel especially), is that the Equinox design favors long battery life over fast charging times. As a rule, fast charging reduces battery life with one of the variables being heat. So given that info, of course GM is going to code it such that fast charging temps are really lower compared to other vehicles that may not be coded for longer battery life. For some like myself that want this car as a daily commuter car more than a road trip car, I find this a bit encouraging. I will more likely use fast chargers now at work-place stations because the heat is controlled, and fast charging is now less of a concern affecting battery life.
We clearly need more instrumentation from both the vehicle and the chargers. The vehicles should report battery temps, fan speeds, etc. The chargers need to provide volts, amps & kw.
Thank you this. I am looking for my first EV. What I don't quite understand is charging time comparisons. If I have a smaller battery capacity, the charging time will be less simply because I need less power. So comparing a Hyundai to the Chevy Equinox EV is a bit confusing for me. I liked your miles per minute data as that allows comparison. Thanks again for this work.
My first car was a Bolt in 2017. We now have teslas. Let me save you heartache and range anxiety… just buy a Tesla. There are more nuances than outlined here. I have a friend with a ford lightning and we charged in cheraw and Bishopville South Carolina. 150kw stations only gave 70kw. Tesla chargers always work and consistently get fast speeds. I pay $10-$12 a charge and tomorrow here showed as $43 session. Crazy expensive. The most we ever paid was $18 in south Florida. TLDR get a Tesla.
I don't think your assumption is correct - case in point the new 2025 Ioniq 5 which has a larger battery pack, thus higher pack voltage, and charges faster because of it.
Just further proof that in spite of all the Ultium hype from GM their EV engineers are still taking stupid pills when it comes to fast charging. This thing DC fast charges as slow as my 2017 Bolt EV! No improvement whatsoever. Funny thing is the Blazer EV 100 kWh pack isn't really all that much better as far as I can see from other reviews. It'll do it in 37 to 40 minutes, on a 350 kw DC Fast Charger?? Really GM? I really would like to lease the Blazer EV too. I love the styling, it's looks. Looks like a car a man would want to buy, but with this slow DC Fast charging? They must be smoking dope.. SMH man. They do not learn. Guess Nissan and Hyundai are going to be my only practical choices for my next EV. I do take roadtrips, so DC Fast charging times matter. Thanks for this informative and insightful review. Oops! Take that back about Nissan. Just checked their fast charging times. No-ooooh! Does it in the same time as the blazer. Okay, I guess it's looking like Hyundai or Kia win the DC Fast charging prize. I've spent too much time at DC fast chargers in the Bolt to ever want to settle for another slow fast charging car. I'll buy a plug in hybrid first. Never again with the slow DC Fast chargers. I think Hyundai Kia raised and set the bar. The rest of them better play catch up. Peoples time is precious. They seem to understand that in a way the other ev makers don't. No way in hell I'm buying Elon's anti-union shop fascist-mobile either. That guys been a real disappointment in terms of personal character. Not buying anything with his name attached to it.
My dad and I made a cross country road trip from Missouri to North Carolina. He has a 2023 Bolt EV and I have a Hyundai Ioniq 6. He literally spent several times as much time as me at charging stations. My average stop was 10 minutes for the trip while his was close to an hour. It is a real game changer in terms of roadtripping. I don't know why no other legacy American brand is taking DCFC seriously. Hyundai Kia Group beat them up for their lunch money and are eating their lunch. I wonder what sort of technical differences there are for going 800V (800V class.) Why hasn't literally everyone switched yet?
I did the math before swapping my EUV for an Equinox. Even with the change in efficiency and the Equinox's mediocre charging curve, DCFC with the Equinox was considerably faster. I can't remember the numbers and I'm too lazy to redo the math, but I believe it was approximately 33% faster.
@@G-Rated I wish. I'm an all American car kind of guy. If Hyundai made a more attractive car than the current ev models I'd have leased one already. I don't want a weird-mobile, just a car. But I can't do anymore slow DC Fast charging, so I'm going to have to compromise somewhere. I like the utility of a hatchback, but I'm not doing anymore 1 hour dc fast charging stops like with my Bolt. Screw that. I'm all or doing my part with switching to ev's, but I gotta get where I'm going in decent time too. I'm just expressing disappointment in GM is all. They promised something with Ultium that they haven't delivered in terms of DC fast charging performance, and it's just ruining the decision making process for me, because what I want is a BLAZER EV! But 40 minutes for a 20%-80% DC Fast charge??!! When a damn Hyundai or a Kia can do it in half the time??!! Arrgh!!
The limiting factor on extremely high KWh throughput is often heat. If you are trying to get as many miles as you can in a short period of time, heat is not an issue. Suppose you charge for 10 minutes at a high rate of charge - that will work for you. However, if you are trying to do a long charge session, a slower charge rate will often have a faster completion time because it can maintain a higher average. I saw this on my Tesla Model 3. I was graphing charge performance and found that the car did better when it stayed at 80 to 100KW as apposed to hitting 170KW and getting hot. Then it would drop down to the 40's and 50's later in the charge. For road tripping, long charges were required and thus, I wish I could select a slower peak charge, for a faster overall experience.
Great points Tom. I agree on your observations of the Lightning being repeatable and expected. The thermals are sorted on the Lightning. Would love it if Ford can find a way to bump the charge speeds. I saw a post on X that the 2024's are pulling 500a in the boost phase. Would like to see what that means in your charging curve tests. GM had lots of time to sort out the charging and thermals here and every one of the Ultium products the charging is still screwy and unpredictable. Not a good feeling and clearly not optimized. GM needs to get this sorted out.
Nice call outs Tom! It’s really sad that my 2017 Bolt charged faster back then vs 7 year newer Chevy EV. Seriously?!? My best guess is the 350 pushed max amps and some of the cells IR caused them to heat up which then caused the thermal throttle which then caused the long top balance. If that’s true, GM needs to reprogram the BMS.
I'm sure many more charge tests are to come. Personally I haven't seen the GM dip yet and if operating normally (no thermal) the Equinox will do 10-80 in about 35'ish minutes. I've seen this repeated on several Tesla Superchargers(magicdock).
Try leaving the AC on set to like 68F... I found on my Bolt EV a slight improvement and different behaviour when charging with the car ON.. but AC off.. vs Car ON and Ac ON.. about 3-5 KW better. And when the car is off.. a similar result.. I think the car waits too long to start cranking the AC compressor for cooling. The Equinox may be doing the same thing.. It de-rated soon when on the 350kw... the de-rate happened later on the 150.. but then happened anyway... it seems the cooling programming is waiting a little too long to start going. rivian has this issue also a bit. Great video... defiantly seems like just going to a 150 station is best.. no need to take the 350 just to save 5 min.
I'm glad I decided to buy a fast charging car after seing this. But I still have problems when all chargers are occupied by slow charging cars. Normally when I get access my car is charged to 80% faster than most of the cars around me even as they started their sessions a lot before me. I drive a Hyundai Ioniq5 and charge at Ionity stations if they are available along my route. On 400V chargers I don't reach half the speed I see at Ionity where I normally can reach over 230 kW for a shorter period. I believe 800V EVs are the future. The thermal limits are much easier to handle with higher voltage.
Agreed on the 800v cars. There are some folks who defend the 400v architecture as if it were a central tenet to their actual being, but I’ve seen the light of 800v and simply can’t look back, if it is a car that will be used for travel on a regular basis as is the case with my Ioniq 6. In relation to the lower power chargers, I travel through Quebec and into the maritimes on a regular basis and will often use the 100kw/400v chargers. The Ioniq will immediately start charging at 90kw (seems to be an inverter limit) and hold it there the entire time I’m plugged in. It affords me more time to stretch, get a coffee, make a sandwich or whatever I want to do without rushing to get unplugged because the charge is finished.
I'm certain there may be improvements upon this charging time over the months/years to come. It's a BMS (Battery Mgmt. Function.) I've liked everything I've seen about the Equinox, and the battery charging/range is of course all of our greatest concern.
Shocking (no pun intended) how far behind GM is in battery engineering compared to Tesla and Hyundai/Kia. Having said that, we’ve had an EV for two years, and I think we’ve charged away from home less than ten times. Home charging is the norm.
I dont think its engineering per se, as in battery chemistry. Its the design of the pack, eg cells in series and parallel. The Ultium platform is modular. Lower capacity vehicles like the Equinox have less cells, and hence a much lower pack voltage than, say, the Hummer. The Hummer can charge MUCH faster as a result. That was likely a cost cutting measure so they didnt try to make any changes to boost the voltage of lower kWh battery packs. A bit unfortunate. Ive had issues with Shell DCFCs only charging my Equinox at 15-38 kW. 250 kW chargers are much better. Had I known this I likely wouldve gotten an eGMP vehicle like Ioniq 5 or EV6 instead. I dont fast charge much but I would really like to have the ability to charge very quickly on a road trip. Besides the poor fast charging, though, I am extremely happy with my Equinox. Excellent range, plenty of passenger space and cargo room. The seats are very comfortable. Its the only car I’ve ever owned that my back doesnt start hurting after long trips. Only other thing I wish it had was more power in the FWD model as its a bit sluggish on the highway.
Some folks want to stretch after driving some time....but, for me, the exercise of walking to the bathroom and coming back is enough. I don't usually spend 20-30 minutes charging. Therefore, ICE is still right for me. Chargers and battery tech still will be out another 10 years. I think it will start to innovate when we're closer to 2030. Currently, fast chargers are slow to expand while the rate of EV sales outpace charger development. So, I'm sticking with ICE at the moment. More freedom and flexibility. Plus, most 4 cylinders have range of 500-600 miles.
Has GM said why they chose such a low pack voltage? My guess is cost/performance trade off? I agree that consistency of experience is a must. I don't use DC fast charging much on my Lightning ER, but the couple times I've road tripped I did get better performance from an EA 150kw than an EA 350kw. In my cases I believe it was charger related; however, the 150s consistently outputted ~167kw for the 15 minute boost period and kept me maxed up to 80%. The lightning charge experience is very consistent. I agree with your statement that the common customer will view charging in terms of minutes and frankly they'll probably say anything within +-3 minutes is "the same". By the time you park, get your McDonalds, watch some youtube....who's counting seconds. IMHO....no new EV pack should be below 600V. The issue with EV adoption is not range capacity (KWH), it's charge rate (KW). If batteries could be charged in 5 minutes nobody would care they only have 250 mile of range. Also...maybe chargers should have AMP ratings, not KW ratings. Just my 2 cents.
Amps!! My F150 Lightning charges slower on lower amperage charging stations. The KW nameplate on DC chargers doesn’t help me choose what would charge my truck best.
I would like to see you do a 30-80% on a 350kw charger as I have been finding it takes 25 mins or less with the charger hitting 158/159kws each time on Electrify Canada stations and holding that or just under 150 for a few mins before dropping to a lower charge. Not sure if preconditioning helped but I always try and do it prior to going to the station. Weather is a bit cooler up here also 😊
Sure that all the numbers are correct? The 20-80% recording took 35 min but if I add all the numbers on the time to add percentage I get 43 minutes. the 70-80% seems to be off.
The metrics make sense. The 350kw EVSE pushing so much current is heating up the system. Eventually it catches up with the car and forces a derate. GM needs to give this a look over and update the software.
What I get from this video: I can charge my vehicle twice in about 70 minutes from 20-80% and still be on the charging station for about 30 minutes less time than a single charge from 0-100%. So, when I pull up to a charging station and all stations are busy with people waiting for 100% charge, I get very upset.
When the 350KW charge station thermal limits at around 20 minutes (0-100 test) how do you know that it's the vehicle's battery causing the derate and not the vehicles charge inlet overheating? Or more likely the charge station connector overheating. Did you place the charge station in a "tech mode" to video the CCS PLC comm data in order to determine what current the vehicle was requesting, and what the charge station was providing? Remember, the charge station has no idea what the vehicle can accept, if "cells are balancing", none of that. All the charge station gets is 2 command values from the vehicle. Current request, and maximum voltage limit. The charge station can however deliver LESS current if it chooses, like if the connector pins are overheating, the cable is overheating, the liquid cooling in the cable has failed, a power module in the charge station overheats, another car plugs in and the cabinet needs to share power, etc. Without knowing BOTH the vehicle current request and the charger current provided, you don't know for sure if a portion of your observed curve is affected by a charger limit or a vehicle limit. You could try another brand (charger hardware manufacturer, not network provider) 350KW charge station, but I suspect similar results because most 350KW cables and plugs, are only rated for 350A continuous and 500A peak for about 15 minutes before they overheat and the charge station has to reduce current to let the pins cool down before ramping the current back up. Do you know of a charge station your Rivian or F150, can get 500A for more than 20 minutes? If so, then try that one with the Equinox.
I used these same chargers a week earlier with multiple Lucid Air charge recordings where it was charging at a much higher rate for longer periods without any derating. It wasn't the stations, it was the vehicle.
If you figure out how the charging timers work on home L2 please make a video cuz I can't figure it out! I want charging from 11PM-7AM only, either I'm dumb or the timers on this car are whack cuz I can't make it happen!
Tom, why doesn't the thermal battery conditioner pump could into the pack when it starts heating? The charger sure has enough power to do both. I get so frustrated when I charge.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughneyit gets roaring even when it’s not charging. People think my equinox is still running when I park it in the driveway. It’s kinda ridiculous.
Basically if you’re at 10% or greater use the 150kW charger. Use the 350kW if your at single digit SOC and you don’t mind heating up the battery to save a few minutes. 👉🏼My use case is we own one vehicle therefore my tool of choice must be a jack of all trades and the IONIQ 5’s 0% to 82% of 22 minutes fulfills the 20% of all energy I’ve taken in quite well. 🎯For us the multiple charging stops during road trips this rapid charge speed saves hours; even though it’s a small % of energy taken in over all. Although we enjoy the journey, these are nessisary miles to traverse vs a scenic casual road tour. We prefer to enjoy the drive rather than to wait at a charging stall filling time with other activities. I hope GM (Ford/Rivian/ETC) uses the current state of the market to correct these Voltage Issues. 43:41
The Debut Edition of the Cadillac Lyriq initially had a big drop due to thermal issues. Reportedly GM was being conservative to prevent a PR disaster like it had with the Bolt. As GM had more experience with cars in the wild they seemed to have improved the charge curve. Of course, with GM’s policy of near absolute secrecy, this is only inferred from reports of owners on social media. GM will probably do the same with the Equinox EV.
My 23 MYP Tesla never hits a temp limit on fast charging. 20ish to 80% only takes 20-25 minutes with battery preconditioning. I think GM has to improve the battery thermal management system still.
Great info. Can we see home charging speeds at different amperage. Best for me is a 30 amp circuit. 24 amp charge . Or even at 16 amp charge 20 amp circuit
This is just a calculation - no need to test. Level 2 charging is flat across the full range of SOC. 24A (at 240VAC) charge is 5.76kW, battery is 85kWh, 85kWh / 5.76kW / 90% charge efficiency = 16 hours 0->100%. Same calculation for 16A yields about 24 hours from empty to full. Most people will see much less time, daily charging to 80% and not discharging anywhere near zero.
My take-away is if you do frequent road trips, get an EV with moderate to high pack voltage. I hope GM doesn’t put this low voltage pack and mediocre BMS in other EV models.
I do think they can improve it with an update. That includes allowing higher temperature tolerances at times. Sometimes OEMs are over-cautious when the vehicle launches, and then after gathering data, realize they can allow higher temps without a problem.
Really interesting video. Fast charging a Blazer EV, I’ve noticed a ton of heat dumping out behind the front wheels. I’d be curious to know if you’re able to meaningfully help cool the Equinox by opening the hood or maybe even using a battery powered fan to help provide some extra air flow. It’ll be interesting to see if the 350/150 difference is greater when the weather is cold.
I wonder if the Hyundai Group and GM announcement this week is because GM badly needs better EV tech because GM has struggled with their EV tech. Really hope GM gets things sorted soon. I already question if GM will be around by the end of the next decade.
What were the ambient temps you were charging at? My Lyriq charges WAY better if it’s less than 60° outside. I see huge throttles above 80° ambient temps.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughneyinteresting, thought maybe that thermal dip was seen across ultium platform cars! I see the same drop to ~30kW after 10-15 minutes and have seen some Silverado/blazer owners have the same dip, despite their different battery sizes.
Can we expect similar DCFC performance on the Honda Prologue, Chevrolet Blazer EV (with the exception of the RS RWD model), and Cadillac Optiq (when it arrives) - as those all use (or will use) the smaller Ultium pack?
Thanks Tom. 0-100 is a useless test for us. In 3 years of BEV ownership I have never gone to 0% nor charged to 100% on a dcfc. The only time I charge to 100% is at home before a trip. The Equinox charges much faster than my Bolt did so it works fine for us i know you realize that normal folks dont charge like that No one drives like Kyle!
The reason Tom starts at zero is to show the charging curve at very low state of charge. Academically, I would like to see what happens at 2% SoC. As for 100%, he wants to see the curve there too, but more importantly show how ridiculous it is to tie up the charging stall so long. Agree with you, for the average EV driver, most don’t care.
He's getting all the data, even if most people will not go that low. The 20-80% info that he shared is super inline with what will happen for most people on road trips.
I'm looking at EVs and wondering if I really need Level 2 charging in my garage. I drive 7500 miles per year (average 20 miles / day). With Level 1 (120VAC) I can expect 3-6 miles of range per hour. I'm retired and my car is in the garage 20 hours / day, so Level 1 should provide 60-120 miles of range per day. Do I really need a Level 2 charger?
No. I have a bolt and level 1 charger came with it. Over 10 months, I changed an average of once every 2 weeks. If I drive 2 days in a row on longer trips, I can charge both days. 😀👍 On one road trip, had to stop for an hour half way. Nice car!
I saw in one of your short videos that you were having an AC charging problem with your equinox EV. I’m having the same message come up on mine. Was there any fix for yours?
Note. @36:22 the Time to add each 10% battery chart is incorrect. On the 20% to 80% recordings it took 8 minutes to go from 70% to 80% on both stations, not 16 minutes as shown. The total time as 34 mnutes on both charging sessions. Hat tip to e-redj for noticing!
The full charging time chart still shows 45 minutes for 10-80% or 223 EPA miles (FWD) or 200 EPA miles (AWD). Adding this number of miles in a Hyundai/Kia or the new Tesla highland would take half that time (or less). Even my crazy inefficient 2024 R1T DM large can pull more range in less time than the Chevy! Tom, you talk to these guys.... why can't GM get EV charging right? For years they sold the Bolt brothers with crippled fast charging and now they seem to be once again introducing a vehicle with charging that is two generations behind. Why does GM struggle so much with this?
Tom - thanks for all that you do for the burgeoning EV industry!
What is the absolute best choice for the 2024 ford f150 lightning flash
Tom, you’re doing fantastic work during these early EV days to highlight the technical details that owners need.
This is information manufactures should provide but do not and I am thankful for contributors like yourself highlighting the information for consumers
I feel like you really need to use an OBD dongle and ”Car Scanner” to also follow along with the battery temperature and module temperature during charging.
You should be able to precisely determine the temperature threshold where de-rating will happen.
CarScanner and an OBD would allow monitoring the battery temperature.
It also shows SOC, coolant pump RPM, DC volts, DC amps, and kW on my Bolt.
It sounds like Tom is estimating the current draw based on the SOC% and a known battery voltage value.
Maybe Carscanner can't be used for commercial endeavors. Other than that, it seems odd not to use it.
I don't like the logging in CarScanner. I need to write a coalescing program to capture all of the data on one line.
Tom could use video capture or screenshots.
So, this EV will charge even worse in the Texas/Arizona summers? Ouch!
Between,
Great work on those charts!
Simple to read, quick to gather information, not over cluttered, clean charts, and also doing the 0-100% and 20-80% charges, excellent work on gathering as much data as possible.
Consider me impressed!
All current Lithium batteries have their own variation of temperature sensitivity
Was gonna come in guns blazing and telling you to stop listening to Kyle, and that DC speeds don't mean as much as he says. But then I watched and realise...yeah...that really is kind of slow. Maybe 150 kW is still okay for a 2024 model year vehicle, but only if you really can use 150 kW.
Thanks very much for all the time you're spending and the good reporting you're doing for us.
The speed is not as important as the curve.. On that 350 session.. imagine if it did not de-rate.. and just had a smooth curve down to meet the 80% drop off curve. Would be a totally different result.
BTW Kyle talks about the curve all the time.. and that peak speeds don't matter that much.
@@kens97sto171 When I road trip, because I drive a Tesla, I regularly arrive at a charger with 5% or sometimes less. (never concerned about them not working) In fact I sometimes speed up to arrive lower and maybe save a few minutes off my drive time. When you start at 5% you get that peak 250 until like 20% then I'm still at 170 by 50%. The best part about those peaks though is, my home is 40 miles from a super charger North or South. 45 miles charging at 1100mph is like 2-3 minutes, and I finish charging at home. It's literally faster than gas sometimes.
This car charges too slow for me, but I'm sure people who don't road trip will be interested. It's just a bigger bolt in my opinion.
For the record, Kyle and I don't ever "listen" to each other. We're good friends and respect each other's opinions (and often call each other to get thier thoughts on something) but we always form and report our own findings and opinions.
Tom owns three of the slowest DC charging vehicles in their class. Bolt, Lightning, Equinox. I bought my F150 Lightning after seeing all of the great reviews including Tom’s.
😬😬😬
True. This highlights how unimportant DC fast charge times are for many folks. I only need to use a DC fast charger once every month or so. I don't mind waiting 15-20 minutes longer when I do if I have to. But those who rely on DC fast chargers may look for faster charging options.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney For people who do cross country road trips, you cant go wrong with a Tesla. Even the standard range 3 does 170KW and it matters way more when it's miles per min are numbers are just huge. This is 1 thing where Lucid wins on paper, but in practical use and cross country races Tesla is still right there for less money.
I would love a Mach-E if they could just charge faster, maybe clean up the app a bit.
Definitely I don't have an EV yet but I plan for my next car to be one but I'm gonna keep my jeep going for at least another year or two, though personally I probably won't get a ford purely because their software is garbage
@@KiRiTO72987 make sure it’s a secondary car to you. The EV that is.
Hi Tom, thanks for sharing and providing your analysis! I have a 2024 Nissan Ariya Platinum that can charge up to 130 kilowatts. I performed my own testing on a EVGO 350 kilowatt fast charger and 100 kilowatt. I found that on the 350, I got to 127 max when I was around 20 percent and then gradually stepped down. It took about 28 minutes to go from 20 to 80 percent. Whereas on the 100 kilowatt the max was 75 and gradually decreased and took 40 minutes. I have noticed that the Ariya has been pretty consistent on the charging speed and step down voltage/kilowatt charging.
Great video - thanks!
Great Data Tom and thanks for clear diagrams and charts. It is easy to follow even for those who are not used to looking at such things. Well done! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Great video and thank you for pointing out the issues with the EVEQ charging system, hope that GM take them into considerations. One of the issues I have with the video is making it a real-life scenario during long weekend trips. The 2 scenarios I'm looking for are a 150-to-300-mile range (or a range that tests the EV maximum EPA estimates) and scenario 2 is driving a longer trip 300-to-500-mile. While charging speed is important, most EVs owners have some access to home or work charging to replenish the miles used on daily or weekly basis as overnight charging is adequate to keep the EVs at 80%. What I would like to see is covering the scenarios above with multiple EVs and evaluate the total trip time, including charging time, the level of comfort in the ride, actual time lost due to waiting on charging, especially if not taking a break for bathroom runs and snacks/meals. From a theoretical perspective, using ABRP planner, the EVEQ is almost identical to Tesla MYLR from a total trip time perspective for a 300-mile road trip while the Ionics 5 RWD LR, takes 20 more minutes (assuming 100% state of charge leaving and arriving at 10%)!
This tracks (especially the 350kW graph) with the DCFC charging I’ve experienced in my 2024 Lyriq, here in Texas.
Interesting! Doesn't your lyriq have the larger (100kWH) pack? It should have a higher pack voltage.
@@ericm4840 Yes. 102 kWh. GM stuck w/ the 400V architecture in their EVs, it seems.
@@PhillyZeitgeist Yes, they did, but your Lyriq should have a higher pack voltage due to the additional 2 (total of 12) modules and that should allow your Lyriq to charge faster than the Equinox with 10 modules. Interesting!
@@ericm4840 Should. But, it doesn't. I've never seen 190kW at an DCFC charger, even under ideal conditions (battery pre-conditioned, ambient temperature, starting below 20%, etc.). Closest has been 178kW at an EVgo charger. And after a few minutes, the charging curve drops... just like in Tom's video. Never have seen my wife's Model Y do that.
@@PhillyZeitgeist Well that isn't good!
So what I take from this is that for the Equinox, if you’re charging up to 80% it makes no difference whether you use 150kW or 350kW. In fact you might even charge quicker on the 150 due to thermal limiting on the 350. So you might as well just use the 150 and save the 350 chargers for vehicles that can take advantage of the higher speed. However, if you *have* to charge all the way up to 100% then the 350 will save you several minutes of charging time to reach 100%
I personally like the charging curve as it encourages drivers *not* to use the 350 since the Equinox actually charges better on the 150.
Probably better for the battery in the long term to not have it bouncing off the temperature limit too...
I saw more consistent speeds on a 350 than he did. Mine got up to 150kwh and dropped down to the 120s for most of the charging session (20% to 60% range) and this was in 110 degree weather.
@RyanTobler yeah Tom is was having thermal issues...that is not a normal charge curve for this vehicle
I haven’t had much luck on 150kW chargers. Some of them have trouble putting put the amperage needed to charge at a decent speed with the equinox’s pack voltage being so low
You nailed it stating people want a consistent/reliable charging experience even if it’s a slower speed to manage thermals better. It’s crazy how the charging curve can be all over the place with no rhyme or reason. Can Chevy really fix this with a software update?
I do have to say the few times I’ve fast charged I saw more consistent speeds on a 350kw charger. It would jump to 150 for about 10 minutes and then drop down into the 120s. That was in Barstow/Bakersfield 110+ heat going from about 20-60%. I did have one time where I got throttled to 30kw after about 8 minutes but I unplugged and plugged into a different charger and went back to the 120s.
I never precondition my Rivian R1T before fast charging(In the summer here in Arizona...) because it'll charge at 220kW for 3 minutes and then derate the EA chargers down to 40kW and it never picks up again. I love it when the charger only gives 150kW because it stays at 150kW all the way to about 60% and it's a lot better than thermal throttling..
Nice break down. In my almost two years owning a EV, I’ve never changed on a EVGO!!!
I find them more reliable in my area than the EA stations
I get 2 years free at EVGO chargers, so I use them almost exclusive.
@@TrustedInsaller nothing wrong wrong with that.
TOM! Another great video. Wow this is an interesting one. I think it puts a little polish on the idea that A 150 kW max car should never use a 350 kW charger. It’s a small piece of the puzzle that is the EV charging landscape. It seems like there’s always something new to learn.
Can you start a series on EVSE that do not have a built-in cable. Or it would be great to see a series that focuses on better charging options for multifamily, housing, and public charging options. Best for small businesses. Tesla has their destination network, which is great, but they ask you to install a minimum of six destination chargers as part of their application process. I’m sure they just don’t want to have Tesla drivers show up to a small location expecting a charge and then there are no available destination chargers if the business has only installed one or two, and it seems reasonable that if you could just buy a Tesla wall connector and add it to the destination charger map, it would be overrun with single units Everywhere as small businesses game system by getting on the national map with only $1000 investment.
I have friends in the middle of nowhere in Kansas and they want to start offering EV charging, but I know it’s complicated based on states that don’t allow you to sell electricity unless you are a large scale provider. I think a solution would be to rent the double ended cables as needed for a small charge. I feel like it would also help keep the units much more undamaged.
Maybe you could sell an online course for $25-$100 that explains everything someone would need to start that small business. I know you had a lot of problems with your DC fast charging equipment years ago, but maybe there are new products on the market that could really help a small business at least offer this as an amenity
Thank you, Tom! Ultium is so squirrelly!
Well done Tom!
If this car started at $$28k for the base model to $38k for the top, then the slow DCFC could be acceptable. At $35k+, I wouldn't trade my Bolt in for the Equinox.
It was a mistake to cancel the Bolt as I’ve rented several and it’s a great EV for city driving. Advantage of Equinox is size, only important if you need more cargo space.
If my math is correct you can add about 150-175 miles of range in 1/2 hour. Given the 300 mile range of the Equinox, you can drive 4 hours then break for 1/2 hour to go to the bathroom, stretch your legs, charge the car, eat a snack. So I would say a 500-550 mile road trip is comfortably doable in the Equinox. Anything over that would make the slow charge times a problem. Would be interesting to know who actually takes a road trip where the drive more than 500 miles in a day.
Slow charging is better for the battery in the long run. I absolutely adore my Equinox EV!
But am guessing hitting thermal limits is not ideal. GM needs to respond - some concern that the de-rate being seen indicates getting very close to stressing the battery.
I recently took a trip in a LYRIQ and only charged on EVgo 350s. I got good speeds at all but one, where there was a nose dive like you showed on the 350, that slowly recovered. Was a bit of a bummer, but we were eating lunch, so actually kinda nice. Anyway. GREAT video. Terrific content. Loved watching.
Based on personal experience with the Lyriq, your ok charges (no Ultium dip) were due to not dipping nearly as low as SOC as Tom did. Most people will hover around 20%, your road trip didn't go nearly so low (assuming you mean your recent video). Will be interesting to see all of Tom's upcoming charge sessions and differing SOC's. But might be hard to fully qualify given different ambient temperatures.
These charging speed is simply unacceptable for a brand new SUV EV in 2024 that costs $45,000
You’re being so dramatic…
Excellent review. Bummer about the slow charge rate for DC. I probably won’t consider it for that reason and no NAC port and no V2L
FWIW, 2025 Equinox EV (in production now) has optional V2L capabilities.
@@LakeLake123 Correct - but only on the higher RS trim, and as an extra option on top.
I have the same Equinox EV 2RS as you Tom. I’m not seeing the thermal throttling when using the EVGO 350’s. Today I went from 40% to 80% in 17 minutes. When the session ended at 80% I was still pulling 91kW. It was a steady decline from 156kW. Did you precondition the battery? I don’t believe you mentioned that. This may seem strange, but I feel it charges better today than it did when I first got it. I have 12,500 miles so far. Look forward to your future Equinox videos.
How cool was it where you were charging? The warmer it is outside the worse the thermals will be, preconditioning or not
I was just going to comment the same thing. I have a LT Blazer EV with the 10 module Ultium Battery as well (85KWh). The biggest station I have charged at was a 200KW rated station at 350A. I used the precondition function upon navigation to a DCFC so it would have fully pre-conditioned. I charged from 14% to 88% and I was pulling a similar 110+KW at about 50% SOC and I was pulling 88KW at 80%. The ambient temperature was 86F (30C).
Tom, the other big users of DCFC are folks who cannot L2/L1 charge where they park. So the speed of fast charging can be a big factor to their buying decisions as well. It’s a less than ideal (and far more expensive) way to go, but many folks have no access to charging while at home/work/commuting. It can make a difference between 15-20 minute sessions (same as a busy gas station) or taking well over an hour or more.
I’ve found that when cars charge slow they are more often (ironically) fully charged to avoid having to charge more often.. people will go eat dinner, or shop, and just leave the car at the DC charger for an hour or more.
You're 100% correct. An EV isn't the best choice for everybody, and if you cannot charge at home or work, you need to make sure the charging times will fit into your schedule, as well as the available charging locations and their usual utilization rate (are they frequently full).
The Equinox will likely need 10-20 minutes longer to charge than other comparable EVs, so if that extra time waiting each week is a problem, then I wouldn't recommend getting it. However, currently, only a very small percentage of EV owners can't charge at home or work. That is going to change, though, as adoption rates increase.
Owners need to do their research and know what they are getting into before buying and finding out it doesn't work for them. I hope my videos like this help people better understand how long they will need to wait when charging.
Thermal limiting is also taking place in the EVSE. I’ve noticed this more on my Lightning at EVGo vs EA. Now using Tesla SC exclusively on road trips, especially towing. Windings in the transformers of the different chargers are different.
The Tesla Supercharger has been the most consistent for me in trips from MI to FL. 🤷🏻♂️
First year new electric platform. Software updates will address this in the future. I don't have a Equinox EV but am looking at one. However, the lease rates in upstate NY are better on a 2024 Hyundai Ioniq 5 SEL which have a proven charging platform with E-GMP. I'm really liking what GM is doing with this platform and will figure this out.
It is nearly impossible to go wrong with any of the Hyundai/Genesis/Kia E-GMP platform cars. They are really solid all ‘rounders. I have had it since the end of July 2023 and there are about 33,000 miles on it now. The car has performed flawlessly.
What a cheapskate like me noted was the discrepency between the cost. I am not so important that I would ever pay the much higher cost of the 359KW charging station.
It’s very sad that at least a decade of EV experience hasn’t allowed GM to anticipate this kind of problem.
I am curious to see what the 10-80% charge recordings will look like since that is generally the industry standard for measuring DCFC speeds
I've already done them. The video will be out soon.
What was the ambient temperature for each of these charges, and how long did you precondition? Both seem to be a big factor in whether you see the thermal derate. Hope GM responds to this - all the Ultium vehicles showing this dreaded 'Ultium dip' when charging at high power, low SOC, and mid to hot ambient temperature. People in very hot climates seeing even worse, with propulsion limited and turtle warning lights, and A/C switching to blowing warm air during the charging.
Also curious about this! Also- in winter ambient temperatures, would we see a bigger gap between the performance of the 150 and 350, and by how much 🤔
So maybe it's just me, but I actually don't see the problem here. Yes, there are some improvements and tweaks that need to be made to the charging profile, but given how fresh the model is, it's not bad. For reference, if you plugged these numbers into Out of Spec's "10% Challenge," the Chevy Equinox EV would still be on par with or even beat a number of EVs with "better" charging profiles like the Tesla Model Y and VW ID4.
Also, for a model that is being pushed for current and former Chevy Bolt EV owners, you try selling those customers on the idea that charging from 20% to 80% in 35 minutes or driving 500 miles at freeway speeds with only two 20-minute charging stops is somehow "bad." For people who rarely if ever drive more than 300 miles in a day (at least 75% of the population according to BTS data), this really is a non-issue.
It’s not just you. People are overly & hyper critical of *gm’s* Ultium platform in their very first generation and with their very first models. They simply won’t get the same grace that Rivian, Tesla, nor Ford has received even for the same exact things like ridding their vehicles of Apple CarPlay. People are extra critical of General Motors in everything they do and this seems to be a problem for reviewers. I think reviewers have higher expectations for GM than they do for Tesla and Ford but that will only further the gap making *gm’s* products better than the competition as time goes on.
@@G-Rated Yes, there's definitely an anti-GM bias in the EV space. Some of it is innocent and due to people relying on bad information, but some of it seems to be on purpose. Munro and Associates literally ignored or omitted most of the innovations and key strengths of Ultium when they did their battery teardown, and if that's your only source of information, you'd think that GM is 10 years behind the industry.
By about 4:00 I'm already imagining the conversations between Chevy drivers and the "helpful" Taycan/Lucid/KIA drivers waiting to charge.
OK, continuing the video now, but I'll be cringing the whole time thinking of the confusion this is going to cause. I'm sure GM had a reason to go this route, but the ONE thing this nation didn't need was more confusion and controversy about charging. EDIT: OK, watched. I'm sure GM will work on that wild charge curve. Great to see that website. Yes, I keep screenshots for planning trips. I have a product review request but will send that separately.
Not really sure that its surprising to see that 350 is as "slow" as 150. Everything I have read/learned about Equinox EV so far (from this channel especially), is that the Equinox design favors long battery life over fast charging times. As a rule, fast charging reduces battery life with one of the variables being heat. So given that info, of course GM is going to code it such that fast charging temps are really lower compared to other vehicles that may not be coded for longer battery life.
For some like myself that want this car as a daily commuter car more than a road trip car, I find this a bit encouraging. I will more likely use fast chargers now at work-place stations because the heat is controlled, and fast charging is now less of a concern affecting battery life.
We clearly need more instrumentation from both the vehicle and the chargers. The vehicles should report battery temps, fan speeds, etc. The chargers need to provide volts, amps & kw.
Thank you this. I am looking for my first EV. What I don't quite understand is charging time comparisons. If I have a smaller battery capacity, the charging time will be less simply because I need less power. So comparing a Hyundai to the Chevy Equinox EV is a bit confusing for me. I liked your miles per minute data as that allows comparison. Thanks again for this work.
My first car was a Bolt in 2017. We now have teslas. Let me save you heartache and range anxiety… just buy a Tesla. There are more nuances than outlined here.
I have a friend with a ford lightning and we charged in cheraw and Bishopville South Carolina. 150kw stations only gave 70kw. Tesla chargers always work and consistently get fast speeds. I pay $10-$12 a charge and tomorrow here showed as $43 session. Crazy expensive. The most we ever paid was $18 in south Florida. TLDR get a Tesla.
I don't think your assumption is correct - case in point the new 2025 Ioniq 5 which has a larger battery pack, thus higher pack voltage, and charges faster because of it.
Just further proof that in spite of all the Ultium hype from GM their EV engineers are still taking stupid pills when it comes to fast charging. This thing DC fast charges as slow as my 2017 Bolt EV! No improvement whatsoever. Funny thing is the Blazer EV 100 kWh pack isn't really all that much better as far as I can see from other reviews. It'll do it in 37 to 40 minutes, on a 350 kw DC Fast Charger?? Really GM? I really would like to lease the Blazer EV too. I love the styling, it's looks. Looks like a car a man would want to buy, but with this slow DC Fast charging? They must be smoking dope.. SMH man. They do not learn. Guess Nissan and Hyundai are going to be my only practical choices for my next EV. I do take roadtrips, so DC Fast charging times matter. Thanks for this informative and insightful review.
Oops! Take that back about Nissan. Just checked their fast charging times. No-ooooh! Does it in the same time as the blazer. Okay, I guess it's looking like Hyundai or Kia win the DC Fast charging prize. I've spent too much time at DC fast chargers in the Bolt to ever want to settle for another slow fast charging car. I'll buy a plug in hybrid first. Never again with the slow DC Fast chargers. I think Hyundai Kia raised and set the bar. The rest of them better play catch up. Peoples time is precious. They seem to understand that in a way the other ev makers don't. No way in hell I'm buying Elon's anti-union shop fascist-mobile either. That guys been a real disappointment in terms of personal character. Not buying anything with his name attached to it.
My dad and I made a cross country road trip from Missouri to North Carolina. He has a 2023 Bolt EV and I have a Hyundai Ioniq 6. He literally spent several times as much time as me at charging stations. My average stop was 10 minutes for the trip while his was close to an hour. It is a real game changer in terms of roadtripping. I don't know why no other legacy American brand is taking DCFC seriously. Hyundai Kia Group beat them up for their lunch money and are eating their lunch. I wonder what sort of technical differences there are for going 800V (800V class.) Why hasn't literally everyone switched yet?
I did the math before swapping my EUV for an Equinox. Even with the change in efficiency and the Equinox's mediocre charging curve, DCFC with the Equinox was considerably faster. I can't remember the numbers and I'm too lazy to redo the math, but I believe it was approximately 33% faster.
Just say you’re a Hyundai fanboy and we’d respect that more.
@@G-Rated I wish. I'm an all American car kind of guy. If Hyundai made a more attractive car than the current ev models I'd have leased one already. I don't want a weird-mobile, just a car. But I can't do anymore slow DC Fast charging, so I'm going to have to compromise somewhere. I like the utility of a hatchback, but I'm not doing anymore 1 hour dc fast charging stops like with my Bolt. Screw that. I'm all or doing my part with switching to ev's, but I gotta get where I'm going in decent time too. I'm just expressing disappointment in GM is all. They promised something with Ultium that they haven't delivered in terms of DC fast charging performance, and it's just ruining the decision making process for me, because what I want is a BLAZER EV! But 40 minutes for a 20%-80% DC Fast charge??!! When a damn Hyundai or a Kia can do it in half the time??!! Arrgh!!
The limiting factor on extremely high KWh throughput is often heat. If you are trying to get as many miles as you can in a short period of time, heat is not an issue. Suppose you charge for 10 minutes at a high rate of charge - that will work for you. However, if you are trying to do a long charge session, a slower charge rate will often have a faster completion time because it can maintain a higher average. I saw this on my Tesla Model 3. I was graphing charge performance and found that the car did better when it stayed at 80 to 100KW as apposed to hitting 170KW and getting hot. Then it would drop down to the 40's and 50's later in the charge. For road tripping, long charges were required and thus, I wish I could select a slower peak charge, for a faster overall experience.
This matches my experience. A Tesla sounds like a jet engine while charging. GM needs to increase cooling so charging can be faster.
Great points Tom. I agree on your observations of the Lightning being repeatable and expected. The thermals are sorted on the Lightning. Would love it if Ford can find a way to bump the charge speeds. I saw a post on X that the 2024's are pulling 500a in the boost phase. Would like to see what that means in your charging curve tests.
GM had lots of time to sort out the charging and thermals here and every one of the Ultium products the charging is still screwy and unpredictable. Not a good feeling and clearly not optimized. GM needs to get this sorted out.
Nice call outs Tom! It’s really sad that my 2017 Bolt charged faster back then vs 7 year newer Chevy EV. Seriously?!?
My best guess is the 350 pushed max amps and some of the cells IR caused them to heat up which then caused the thermal throttle which then caused the long top balance. If that’s true, GM needs to reprogram the BMS.
I'm sure many more charge tests are to come. Personally I haven't seen the GM dip yet and if operating normally (no thermal) the Equinox will do 10-80 in about 35'ish minutes. I've seen this repeated on several Tesla Superchargers(magicdock).
I’m sure you know but we can now use GM EV’s on V3 superchargers. GM is charging $225 for adapters through them.
Try leaving the AC on set to like 68F... I found on my Bolt EV a slight improvement and different behaviour when charging with the car ON.. but AC off.. vs Car ON and Ac ON.. about 3-5 KW better. And when the car is off.. a similar result.. I think the car waits too long to start cranking the AC compressor for cooling.
The Equinox may be doing the same thing.. It de-rated soon when on the 350kw...
the de-rate happened later on the 150.. but then happened anyway... it seems the cooling programming is waiting a little too long to start going.
rivian has this issue also a bit.
Great video... defiantly seems like just going to a 150 station is best.. no need to take the 350 just to save 5 min.
I'm glad I decided to buy a fast charging car after seing this. But I still have problems when all chargers are occupied by slow charging cars. Normally when I get access my car is charged to 80% faster than most of the cars around me even as they started their sessions a lot before me. I drive a Hyundai Ioniq5 and charge at Ionity stations if they are available along my route. On 400V chargers I don't reach half the speed I see at Ionity where I normally can reach over 230 kW for a shorter period.
I believe 800V EVs are the future. The thermal limits are much easier to handle with higher voltage.
Agreed on the 800v cars. There are some folks who defend the 400v architecture as if it were a central tenet to their actual being, but I’ve seen the light of 800v and simply can’t look back, if it is a car that will be used for travel on a regular basis as is the case with my Ioniq 6.
In relation to the lower power chargers, I travel through Quebec and into the maritimes on a regular basis and will often use the 100kw/400v chargers. The Ioniq will immediately start charging at 90kw (seems to be an inverter limit) and hold it there the entire time I’m plugged in. It affords me more time to stretch, get a coffee, make a sandwich or whatever I want to do without rushing to get unplugged because the charge is finished.
I'm certain there may be improvements upon this charging time over the months/years to come. It's a BMS (Battery Mgmt. Function.) I've liked everything I've seen about the Equinox, and the battery charging/range is of course all of our greatest concern.
Shocking (no pun intended) how far behind GM is in battery engineering compared to Tesla and Hyundai/Kia. Having said that, we’ve had an EV for two years, and I think we’ve charged away from home less than ten times. Home charging is the norm.
I dont think its engineering per se, as in battery chemistry. Its the design of the pack, eg cells in series and parallel. The Ultium platform is modular. Lower capacity vehicles like the Equinox have less cells, and hence a much lower pack voltage than, say, the Hummer. The Hummer can charge MUCH faster as a result. That was likely a cost cutting measure so they didnt try to make any changes to boost the voltage of lower kWh battery packs. A bit unfortunate. Ive had issues with Shell DCFCs only charging my Equinox at 15-38 kW. 250 kW chargers are much better. Had I known this I likely wouldve gotten an eGMP vehicle like Ioniq 5 or EV6 instead. I dont fast charge much but I would really like to have the ability to charge very quickly on a road trip. Besides the poor fast charging, though, I am extremely happy with my Equinox. Excellent range, plenty of passenger space and cargo room. The seats are very comfortable. Its the only car I’ve ever owned that my back doesnt start hurting after long trips. Only other thing I wish it had was more power in the FWD model as its a bit sluggish on the highway.
@@Comfort031 I am happy to hear you are pleased with your Equinox!
Some folks want to stretch after driving some time....but, for me, the exercise of walking to the bathroom and coming back is enough. I don't usually spend 20-30 minutes charging. Therefore, ICE is still right for me. Chargers and battery tech still will be out another 10 years. I think it will start to innovate when we're closer to 2030. Currently, fast chargers are slow to expand while the rate of EV sales outpace charger development. So, I'm sticking with ICE at the moment. More freedom and flexibility. Plus, most 4 cylinders have range of 500-600 miles.
Has GM said why they chose such a low pack voltage? My guess is cost/performance trade off? I agree that consistency of experience is a must. I don't use DC fast charging much on my Lightning ER, but the couple times I've road tripped I did get better performance from an EA 150kw than an EA 350kw. In my cases I believe it was charger related; however, the 150s consistently outputted ~167kw for the 15 minute boost period and kept me maxed up to 80%. The lightning charge experience is very consistent. I agree with your statement that the common customer will view charging in terms of minutes and frankly they'll probably say anything within +-3 minutes is "the same". By the time you park, get your McDonalds, watch some youtube....who's counting seconds.
IMHO....no new EV pack should be below 600V. The issue with EV adoption is not range capacity (KWH), it's charge rate (KW). If batteries could be charged in 5 minutes nobody would care they only have 250 mile of range. Also...maybe chargers should have AMP ratings, not KW ratings. Just my 2 cents.
Amps!! My F150 Lightning charges slower on lower amperage charging stations. The KW nameplate on DC chargers doesn’t help me choose what would charge my truck best.
You really did it this time, Mary…
When the cheaper Chinese electric vehicles come on the market these legacy brands are going to die off
Tom that car looks really good 👍👍👍
I would like to see a video offering your opinion and impression of the Honda Prologue.
I would like to see you do a 30-80% on a 350kw charger as I have been finding it takes 25 mins or less with the charger hitting 158/159kws each time on Electrify Canada stations and holding that or just under 150 for a few mins before dropping to a lower charge. Not sure if preconditioning helped but I always try and do it prior to going to the station. Weather is a bit cooler up here also 😊
I am doing that
Sure that all the numbers are correct? The 20-80% recording took 35 min but if I add all the numbers on the time to add percentage I get 43 minutes. the 70-80% seems to be off.
You're correct! The 70-80% was 8 minutes, not 16! That slipped by me and my editor! The total was 34 minutes, not over 40 as you say. Good catch.
What charges faster, equinox or leaf?
Tom,
Could you please do a 20%-80% recorded session on a V3 with the A2Z adaptor now that GM has access to the Tesla Supercharger network.
I will
Tom, can you do a retest with the Tesla Supercharger please 🙏🏿..
The metrics make sense. The 350kw EVSE pushing so much current is heating up the system. Eventually it catches up with the car and forces a derate. GM needs to give this a look over and update the software.
I’m also interested if the thermal throttling gets better or persists as the ambient temperature start to drip
What I get from this video: I can charge my vehicle twice in about 70 minutes from 20-80% and still be on the charging station for about 30 minutes less time than a single charge from 0-100%. So, when I pull up to a charging station and all stations are busy with people waiting for 100% charge, I get very upset.
When the 350KW charge station thermal limits at around 20 minutes (0-100 test) how do you know that it's the vehicle's battery causing the derate and not the vehicles charge inlet overheating? Or more likely the charge station connector overheating. Did you place the charge station in a "tech mode" to video the CCS PLC comm data in order to determine what current the vehicle was requesting, and what the charge station was providing?
Remember, the charge station has no idea what the vehicle can accept, if "cells are balancing", none of that. All the charge station gets is 2 command values from the vehicle. Current request, and maximum voltage limit. The charge station can however deliver LESS current if it chooses, like if the connector pins are overheating, the cable is overheating, the liquid cooling in the cable has failed, a power module in the charge station overheats, another car plugs in and the cabinet needs to share power, etc.
Without knowing BOTH the vehicle current request and the charger current provided, you don't know for sure if a portion of your observed curve is affected by a charger limit or a vehicle limit.
You could try another brand (charger hardware manufacturer, not network provider) 350KW charge station, but I suspect similar results because most 350KW cables and plugs, are only rated for 350A continuous and 500A peak for about 15 minutes before they overheat and the charge station has to reduce current to let the pins cool down before ramping the current back up. Do you know of a charge station your Rivian or F150, can get 500A for more than 20 minutes? If so, then try that one with the Equinox.
I used these same chargers a week earlier with multiple Lucid Air charge recordings where it was charging at a much higher rate for longer periods without any derating. It wasn't the stations, it was the vehicle.
If you figure out how the charging timers work on home L2 please make a video cuz I can't figure it out! I want charging from 11PM-7AM only, either I'm dumb or the timers on this car are whack cuz I can't make it happen!
From memory, the rivian is also about 5 min difference between a 150 and 350 despite being able to pull 220.
Tom as a fellow numbers geek love your videos - quick request could you do the same test with the new Ioniq 5 -
Tom, why doesn't the thermal battery conditioner pump could into the pack when it starts heating? The charger sure has enough power to do both. I get so frustrated when I charge.
It does. The system is roaring during the session. It just can't cool it off quickly enough.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughneyit gets roaring even when it’s not charging. People think my equinox is still running when I park it in the driveway. It’s kinda ridiculous.
This seems (to me) to mainly be a difference of vehicle thermals.
I wonder if a cool water spray on the heat exchanger would change these numbers.
Why does GM’s battery platform charge so poorly? This is a thing I’ve seen people have issues with their Volts, Bolts now Equinoxes.
Basically if you’re at 10% or greater use the 150kW charger. Use the 350kW if your at single digit SOC and you don’t mind heating up the battery to save a few minutes. 👉🏼My use case is we own one vehicle therefore my tool of choice must be a jack of all trades and the IONIQ 5’s 0% to 82% of 22 minutes fulfills the 20% of all energy I’ve taken in quite well. 🎯For us the multiple charging stops during road trips this rapid charge speed saves hours; even though it’s a small % of energy taken in over all. Although we enjoy the journey, these are nessisary miles to traverse vs a scenic casual road tour. We prefer to enjoy the drive rather than to wait at a charging stall filling time with other activities. I hope GM (Ford/Rivian/ETC) uses the current state of the market to correct these Voltage Issues. 43:41
Do you think this inconsistency is why GM still does not have access to the Tesla SC network?
I've just heard that Telsa Superchargers are enabled for GM vehicles - would be interested to see what kind of charging rate you'll get
Coming soon!
Love this, thanks Tom
This was a good video, I’d also be curious to see the AC charging times at different amperages as well.
Thanks, Tom. Disappointing performance. Does car navigation give owner a suggestion to not charge too high / too long?
It's like an over scaled bolt... Chevy Silverado is a charging beast
That’s because the battery pack is larger and consequently has more volts.
The Debut Edition of the Cadillac Lyriq initially had a big drop due to thermal issues. Reportedly GM was being conservative to prevent a PR disaster like it had with the Bolt.
As GM had more experience with cars in the wild they seemed to have improved the charge curve. Of course, with GM’s policy of near absolute secrecy, this is only inferred from reports of owners on social media.
GM will probably do the same with the Equinox EV.
My 23 MYP Tesla never hits a temp limit on fast charging. 20ish to 80% only takes 20-25 minutes with battery preconditioning. I think GM has to improve the battery thermal management system still.
Great info. Can we see home charging speeds at different amperage. Best for me is a 30 amp circuit. 24 amp charge . Or even at 16 amp charge 20 amp circuit
This is just a calculation - no need to test. Level 2 charging is flat across the full range of SOC. 24A (at 240VAC) charge is 5.76kW, battery is 85kWh, 85kWh / 5.76kW / 90% charge efficiency = 16 hours 0->100%. Same calculation for 16A yields about 24 hours from empty to full. Most people will see much less time, daily charging to 80% and not discharging anywhere near zero.
Can you do a video on solutions for people who live in condos and apartments? For example, using a Smart Outlet system like Pando Electric?
My take-away is if you do frequent road trips, get an EV with moderate to high pack voltage. I hope GM doesn’t put this low voltage pack and mediocre BMS in other EV models.
Just when I assumed every EV was at least 400v and many are 800v, GM took a left turn Albuquerque
Maybe they are going for the "Chevy Low Rider" look. I mean, anyone can charge fast, it takes class to charge slow......
From a design perspective, I wonder what lead them to go with such a low pack voltage.
Hey Tom! Quick questions for ya! Was climate/HVAC on during the charging sessions? Trying to figure out if that was a factor in the thermal derating.
No. I'd never leave the vehicle on when doing my charge recordings
Just looking for your opinion - do you think the thermal issues can be resolved without a hardware change?
I do think they can improve it with an update. That includes allowing higher temperature tolerances at times. Sometimes OEMs are over-cautious when the vehicle launches, and then after gathering data, realize they can allow higher temps without a problem.
Really interesting video. Fast charging a Blazer EV, I’ve noticed a ton of heat dumping out behind the front wheels. I’d be curious to know if you’re able to meaningfully help cool the Equinox by opening the hood or maybe even using a battery powered fan to help provide some extra air flow. It’ll be interesting to see if the 350/150 difference is greater when the weather is cold.
I have the hood open for all the recordings
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney Oh, interesting. Think it did any good, then?
Tom, out of curiosity why did you not use the same charging network for both? EA has 350 stations EVGo has 150.
There are no local 150 kW EVgo stations and the 350 kW EA local units suck. They are always derating.
I wonder if the Hyundai Group and GM announcement this week is because GM badly needs better EV tech because GM has struggled with their EV tech.
Really hope GM gets things sorted soon. I already question if GM will be around by the end of the next decade.
Tom, if you're confused with the Chevy Equinox EV charging speed rate, then you should test the Toyota bz4x charging speed!!
And Toyota limits the 2024 Toyota bz4x to 3 DC fast charging sessions a day before throttling the charging speeds even slower!
If you're saying the Equinox EV is A slow charging vehicle, then I can't wait to hear your take on Toyota's bz4x. It's Toyota!!
What were the ambient temps you were charging at? My Lyriq charges WAY better if it’s less than 60° outside. I see huge throttles above 80° ambient temps.
70-80 degrees. Lyriq's battery is bigger (2 extra modules) and charge programming is also different. Can't compare the two.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughneyinteresting, thought maybe that thermal dip was seen across ultium platform cars! I see the same drop to ~30kW after 10-15 minutes and have seen some Silverado/blazer owners have the same dip, despite their different battery sizes.
Can we expect similar DCFC performance on the Honda Prologue, Chevrolet Blazer EV (with the exception of the RS RWD model), and Cadillac Optiq (when it arrives) - as those all use (or will use) the smaller Ultium pack?
Perhaps, but those have more battery modules and higher pack voltage, so it's not apples to apples.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I'll have to double check - I thought all of those were (also) using the 85 KWh pack (10 modules).
How could GM screw this up AGAIN after the Bolt. My gosh.
Thanks Tom. 0-100 is a useless test for us. In 3 years of BEV ownership I have never gone to 0% nor charged to 100% on a dcfc. The only time I charge to 100% is at home before a trip. The Equinox charges much faster than my Bolt did so it works fine for us i know you realize that normal folks dont charge like that No one drives like Kyle!
The reason Tom starts at zero is to show the charging curve at very low state of charge. Academically, I would like to see what happens at 2% SoC. As for 100%, he wants to see the curve there too, but more importantly show how ridiculous it is to tie up the charging stall so long. Agree with you, for the average EV driver, most don’t care.
He's getting all the data, even if most people will not go that low. The 20-80% info that he shared is super inline with what will happen for most people on road trips.
General Motors should have done this testing prior to releasing the vehicle.
I'm looking at EVs and wondering if I really need Level 2 charging in my garage. I drive 7500 miles per year (average 20 miles / day). With Level 1 (120VAC) I can expect 3-6 miles of range per hour. I'm retired and my car is in the garage 20 hours / day, so Level 1 should provide 60-120 miles of range per day.
Do I really need a Level 2 charger?
No. I have a bolt and level 1 charger came with it. Over 10 months, I changed an average of once every 2 weeks. If I drive 2 days in a row on longer trips, I can charge both days. 😀👍 On one road trip, had to stop for an hour half way. Nice car!
The software has probably been designed for long term battery life rather than charge speed.
I saw in one of your short videos that you were having an AC charging problem with your equinox EV. I’m having the same message come up on mine. Was there any fix for yours?
Are you using a Tesla Universal Wall Connector?
No I’m getting the message on all ac chargers