Cohh's Thoughts On The Last Of Us Part 2 (EXTENDED SPOILER TALK EDITION)
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Cohh talks about his time with The Last Of Us Part 2 (SUPER EPLOSION OF SPOILERS) -- Watch live at / cohhcarnage
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#TheLastOfUs2 #Gamereview #CohhCarnage
I just don't get the devs decision to make you feel bad about killing one person when you kill thousands to get to her. And all because you just know her perspective. So what? All the other people who's perspective we haven't seen but had to kill so it was OK to kill them? It's just stupid.
Worst of all, half the story is on rails, but we're still being chastised for our actions anyway, as if we had any choice to begin with. The first game didn't waste time trying to teach us that "bad things are bad", it actually treated us like people aware of the concept.
Cohh makes an excellent point in criticizing the way the story's delivery and pacing sort of obscured its meanings and intention. I do think it's unfair to make this type of assumption about the "devs decision to make you feel" X, Y, or Z. I don't think the intentions were that simple.
The idea that you're supposed to feel bad about killing Abby is not necessarily accurate. The idea that the plot's moral is "revenge is bad" is a gross oversimplification. This is just Ellie and Abby's story. It explores their emotions, their motivations, and their means of coping with loss and suffering in a brutal world. Seriously ask the question: Why didn't Ellie kill Abby? Is it really just because Naughty Dog had some pedantic theme about revenge in mind, or is it more a reflection of realism, a portrayal of her development as a layered person? Ellie's decision wan't simple, and if you refuse to think about it as anything other than lazy writing, that's all you will see. If you assume you're being chastised for your actions, that's all you will see. The game doesn't paint hatred or violence in a good light (why would it?), but it rather explores them in a sort of abstract way. What you're looking at and what you feel when you experience a work of art are not necessarily going to line up with an artist's points of view. What's important is that we acknowledge and examine what we feel and try to understand why.
The problem is that Ellie murders hordes of enemies while making her way to Abby, but only in key, forced moments she actually feels bad about it, only when the narrative dictates so. We're treated to a side story that tries to humanize her foes, which is highly unnecessary and horribly delivered. Everyone she kills has a story and their own reasons to do what they do, so why these particular group of people matter, why they are the ones making Ellie redefine her entire character? Furthermore, Ellie not killing Abby is the devs directly preaching on us, trying to show us that "there is another way" and "everyone has flaws".
However, the issue comes when you realize that, as I mentioned Ellie killed a lot of people to get there, she suffered and struggled and took us on a trip, she got us engaged in her tale, only to leave it at some half assed resolution. I'm not saying Ellie had to kill Abby no matter what, but I do say that the way it was delivered was pretty much the worst, and it only serves to push an overly cliché message that by then has driven most to boredom.
Also consider everything the devs have said about the game, their opinion on things is perfectly clear, so it's not so much me seeing what I want to see, but seeing their vision realized. As Cohh said, we're but taken along someone else's vision here, unlike the first game when we're left to our own conclusions. TLOU2 is a preachy mess from beginning to end.
@@beo3828 This is exactly what bothers me with this game. And some would say: "aren't all video games like that?". Well my response to that is Naughty Dog themselves set their own standard higher by making a game with probably the best graphical fidelity, acting, and narrative expectations. And this higher standard being set is the very same reason why this specific narrative dissonance is even more noticeable. I just hoped that if they had just included options to be violent and non-violent then players would have really experienced the first-hand necessity about the importance of violence for survival by making combat encounters more harder when opting for non-violent approaches which would at least alleviated this dissonance when watching Ellie's emotional responses in cutscenes. But it's just my opinion though.
@@beo3828 This kind of logical take from you is rare today. And I agree with you completely.
Really glad you put the whole convo on RUclips. Finding it on Twitch was mildly annoying.
Agreed. I whinged about the first video being misleading but this is much more complete.
you can tell Cohh is trying his damn hardest to criticize without destroying the game lol
Yea the game may look good but when you have companys trying to take down peoples channel on public things about the game before release because its horrible then you know something is wrong. Only way I will play this if its gifted to me other then that I wont touch it.
I don't think he was holding back. He sounded exactly the way I feel and I'm only about 15 hours in which I'm guessing is about half way through. The game has some good things but it just doesn't hold a candle to the first which is a masterpiece imo. The bad pace and meh story really ruin what otherwise is a good game when it comes to actual gameplay. The graphics, AI and animations are what you would expect from a new Naughty Dog game but the bad story is not what you would expect from them after the Uncharted series and the first TLOU
Day Day lol man, first 15 hours are a masterpiece, compared to what’s coming after
Basicly he’s lieing
@@timothypricesr5953 ???
"Two lost fingers out of ten" bahahahahahaha!
I can hear this in Adam Sessler's voice lol
pin the minute pls
@@anxietydisorders5917 8:11
@@iMadPow prime cohh
The best part of the game are the flashbacks with Joel and Ellie. Without a shadow of a doubt.
"I want to float around on a raft in the ocean and eat coconuts."
I feel this on a very deep level this year.
LMAO... So do I, my friend. So do I.
Too bad coconuts are actually pretty disgusting.
@@themurmeli88 wdym ? Coconuts are GREAT
I agree, it also happens that coconut is my my favorite tree!
@@themurmeli88 coco - nut
Damn, I've never seen Cohh so disappointed.
Fallout 76? 🤣
@@wolf-xin1742 maybe a bit beside the point, but that was 100% on him for expecting anything else, though.
@@nope-qi8zx true
It’s amazing how visibly you can tell that cohh is trying to keep himself positive in both of the thoughts videos. To me the body language he’s giving off tells a lot more the ANY of the words from his mouth. He always does what he can to be positive about things and you can tell it was hard for him. At least that’s what I see from him. (Edit grammar errors)
You're not wrong.I enjoy Cohh's content because of the upbeat nature he brings..
But, he is trying VERY hard here...
Through the play through there were moments you could tell he was having an internal fight over where a section of story was going, you could tell he was internally WTF'ing at some of the decisions characters were making and yet you could see his determination to follow the story and game play through to it's conclusion, he wanted to believe in it redeeming itself as a worthy successor to LOU.
@@Casey_HZD yeah definitely he was thinking reaaaly hard to not to say different words or things.. there are even more issues with this game or how they presented it.. false advertisement, baning people channels, telling different things and do other.. naughty dog is dead for me sadly
@@kreonish Yea I'm pretty sure they're still false advertising this game by featuring Joel + Ellie in the commercials while omitting Abby entirely. If you don't see her kill Joel in the commercial there shouldn't be any reason to hide her, except that they know it's a bad story, so they want to bank on the nostalgia of the first one.
@@nokturnallex2160 yeah neil duckerman or whats his name said that you will be playing only as ellie.... then theres a scene witj joel in commercials as you said and in game theres not a joel but another girl - forget her name.. oh and best part they said no you will not kill any animal.. poor dog..
"I give it two lost fingers out of ten."
*puts on sunglasses*
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
the pacing, he said he gave the story a 5/10.
My favorite review so far, I didn't like this game, but the points of pacing and how many different stories they could've told is the biggest thing. I believed Joel had a good chance of dying in this game, but there is a good and bad way to do it.
i honestly think it would have been more impactful if ellie chooses to part ways with joel at the end of the game to seek out the fireflies or something like that. it becomes more compelling since it shows growth. Having a parent ripped from you doesn't elict any type of growth but rather just anger and frustration at times which is literally what i felt with this game.
I wonder if showing the flashback scenes of young Abby before and after her dad's death were interspersed earlier in the game the impact on empathizing with her character might have made more sense to the narrative of the game and allowed the player to at the very least understand her own plight as well as we understood Ellie's. Also playing as her for so long would not have been so necessary if that had been the case and we could have focused more attention on the characters players wanted to interact with.
@@Casey_HZD I think if they edited this game differently it would have been better. Still maybe not a great story but it would have made you think more. Why not show that Abby is that guys daughter just after Joel kills him in the recap? There was no reason to hide that for so long. It doesn't make me change how I feel towards her but if I had saw that maybe I'd sympathise more.
The gameplay is still great imo but there are too many pointless encounters and open areas. I'm about 15 hours in and unless I'm being chased by a hoard the I have no urgency to not want to loot all the buildings, especially when it becomes a bit more open world. Yesterday I was looking for Tommy in that suburb area they showed in gameplay reveals and there was this really urgent music like the game wanted me to rush and the enemies were acting that way as well but I just took my time looting because the game has taught me to do that from the beginning.
It's ok for games to be on the shorter side if it serves the story imo. I feel like players who cry when a game isn't 30+ hours or open world have to take some responsibility that we don't get a lot of to the point AAA stories these days. If I was a dev I'd be scared to make a shorter game too because apparently the amount you pay for a game equates to the time it takes to finish it in this day and age
I knew karma would come calling for Joel eventually, but the way they did it was so contrived. Joel and Tommy just...kinda forgot not to trust strangers…and that they were still being hunted by the Fireflies.
This game would've benefited a lot from being a non-linear story and allowing the player to make choices. Because the linear game we got was a condescending "Revenge is bad" story, with bad pacing and unlikable characters, including the characters we already knew from the first game. Just about all the characters from the previous game acted out of character in order to create unnecessary conflict.
I never thought the pacing could ruin the story and narrativa of a game so much. You are right about pretty much everything, spot on as always.
Imo pacing might be the only thing that can make someone uninstall a game midway, given that everything else is okayish. Now, pacing can be done in different ways, it can be done with gameplay too, especially if the game doesn't have much of a story. But if you butcher it in a story driven game, then there is no going back.
At the end of the day he enjoyed the game and that's what it's all about, as he recommends it
@@ddiimmaa123 well, there are a lot of things he didn't liked at the end, I don't know where are you getting all this positivity. He also says that's unlikely he will play the game again considering how he felt about it.
@@Frank-kq4te I liked the game and wouldnt play it again. Just because you wouldnt play it again doesnt make it a bad game, the game is quite depressing and long. Again, he said that he enjoyed the game and would recommend it.
But not for the reasons you’re probably thinking
"Don't have any expectations going into this" is a very diplomatic way of saying that many aspects of the game simply fall short.
When one of the most reasonable and diplomatic voices on the Internet says, your game has problems.
You HAVE to know you've messed up.
The man literally has THOUSANDS of hours of video games under his belt and knows a thing or two about video games, to say the least.
Thanks Cohh!
This is a man who sounded happier in his reviews of Anthem and Fallout 76, in this one he sounds like someone just killed his cats before he recorded.
-_- probably because he had more hope/higher expectations for this game
@@-_-2950 because those game are not last of us, he just played it for what it is even if he knew those games sucks balls.
Argumentum ad verecundiam
@@victorprati7908 I can Google Latin too. And it's not Cohh as an authority by default, it's the THOUSANDS of hours of game play, that have shown him to have developed into one.
If Cohh rips your game there is a problem
Fr he finished anthem
And Fallout 76
he said he had a good time with it.
Cohh's whole thing is 'good vibes'. However you feel about TLOU 2, theres one thing everyone can agree on. This game is the antithesis of good vibes.
@@stargateheaven23 and after that goes on to talk about the many problems he had with it.
Problem with giving a 10/10 though is that it can't really be much better. And I think saying that about this game(no matter whether you like it or not) is a bit disingenuous.
IGN "sweats profusely"
Yeap. 7/10 is it's ceiling. And you gotta be generous not to make it a 6.
I usually garde based on the promise. The Expendables is a 9/10 for a 90s action movie.
This is a story based interactive experience. The story is worse than mediocre. Mediocre would be all are aligned that its meh. Now most are of the view that it was bad.
So in my books a 4/10, maybe a 5/10.
@SwenglishGamer if you were writing for IGN you would've given it 10/10 without "probably", because nobody would ask for your opinion.
Betcher's Gland goddamn
This is a very roundabout and diplomatic way of saying "meh".
It feels like me talking to one of my bosses/superiors at work trying to tell them their idea is stupid, in a way that doesn't get me fired or puts me in a bad light. That's what listening to this feels like.
Well it's a refreshingly nuanced take if you compare it to the tone and 'discussion' about the game out there :P
roundabout and diplomatic? this is harsh by cohh standards :0 "poor pacing" "two lost fingers" "5.5/6 story" "disjointed commentary" "i don't like the fact that there wasn't enough joel" "i didn't like that" "it deadened the experience for me" "i think it didn't work" "you turned the other chick into an unlikeable character" "it became a mess to me" "the story is so all over the place" "so much negative with so much positve" "it dragged" etc etc i loved this thoughts vid personally, critical cohh is best cohh
@@ruinaze I don't think you're paying attention to HOW he says everything and how he balances every single good and bad. how he words it. Does it contain many negatives? yes. But the WAY he words it, is carefully selected, making sure not to step on anyone's toes. He's walking on a minefield. Mind you, there's nothing wrong with it. But to me, it's clear he's trying to either hold back, or intentionally trying to avoid stepping on one argument or another.
@@darksunDS true! that's personally one of the reasons i love cohh tbh but i understand not everyone is like that
Cohh Thoughts on TLOU2, Snyder Cut.
When you have to preface the game with "lower your expectations" tells you all you need to know
"It was certainly an experience"
So is getting your hand torn off by a shark, but I am 99.9% sure I wouldn't recomend it.
lol you freaking got me with this one XD
Honestly if the shark is able to tear off your hand then it deserves the hand. Why are you swimming with sharks to begin with?
@@Cynicz13 but what if it was a dolphin?
Brother Fox then it’s a scary dolphin.
Symptoms may include but are not limited to:
1. Depression
2. Confusion
3. Angre
4. Nihilism
5. Depression
Absolutely right. This game made me feel sad, empty and depressed.
*Character DEVELOPMENT*
Revenge is bad. BUT, killing hundreds of people on your way to get your revenge is absolutely acceptable. As long as you don't get your revenge.
*credit rolls*
Also killing dogs is bad, and if its Neil druckmans dog it's super bad.
Bruh its stupidly reductionist to say the message was just revenge is bad... It's like saying the story of GoW is pretty much "All gods are bad"...
All 100s except for that 1 girl with psp would shoot you on sight, so you are not killing them on your path. You killed them to survive on your path. Big difference. I reckon those that distinguished between the two enjoyed the game and those that didn’t hated it. Its one of the most divisive games for this reason
You definitely didn't play the game
I can already tell you haven't played the game
Here is my recommendation: If you like Tear Jerkers and are fine with being emotionally manipulated by the crudest means possible, you'll have a great time. But if you are not one of those people and/or want to keep your memories of part 1 intact, stay as far away as possible.
I think this is the most honest and best opinion piece of this game that I have heard yet.
Noone else could have explained how i felt about this game better. Such a shame
He recommends the game to others tho, I'm lost with his explanation of forcing himself to review it, but now "not answer questions, ready to move" mentality.
@@steelgoodwin sometimes we like to forget about our worst disappointments you know? He loved the first and like alot of us was hit really hard with how they did joel. Im personally gonna pretend this game never happened altogether
@@anubisfox5765 I think with his messaging that he needed to retract his recommendation for the game to potential new customers if the game is so not worth playing again or ever in his wording
@@steelgoodwin he recommended it if you can drop any expectations cuz the gameplay itself is genuinely fun. But your right he could word it better but he was trying to keep that part spoiler free
@@anubisfox5765 ah. Well then
we really didn't need a PART 2. that's the problem, joel and ellie lives happily ever after, period.. what we could get was a brand new set of survivors and a new story.
I got news for you chief... We are probably gonna get a part 3 based on the way they set it up. Probably gonna be Abby as the main character as well sadly.
@@warblackjack5565 but look at it this way, TLOU 3 could be the phoenix that rises from the ashes. where we get to play as abby, then watch HER get brutally beaten to death, and then play as that character instead.
it's fucking genius. it's the perfect setup. everyone who hated TLOU 2 will love 3.
@@bomjus1706 can't wait,... only 7 years left.
Jimmeh Boy i mean ellie did lose everything so we could see a part 3 with her hunting down the fireflies since they apparently exist now. Or a more wholesome trying to reconnect with dina ect... i feel like they went the uncharted route a bit (hear me out). Uncharted 1 was great, uncharted 2 didnt do so well it was least liked of the 4 it was more edgy & kinda tailored off but was a great game. Same goes for Last of us. Part 1 was perfect, part 2 setup a theme that was settled by realization of losing literally every memory. A 3rd part could be setup to follow ellies journey to the end. Perhaps she follows up with dina & we see JJ’s journey or we see Ellie want to reconnect with the Fireflies to right wrongs. Part 1 was about Love, Part 2 about Revenge, Part 3 about Forgiveness?? It makes sense to me honestly
I got a little scrambled but brought it back together lol
@@TyPlaysHD thing is though...what would be more compelling is joel doesn't die but instead, at the end of TLOU 2, end up leaving joel behind to break out on her own in order to find the fireflies in a way that shows she is going her own path. Maybe she sneaks out and it becomes a two branch story with joel trying to find ellie or something like that but literally Joel made the first game...after he dies, the game just feels empty. To elicit such a strong emotion of disdain so early just made me numb to anything else that happened and i really just gripped on to the parts where joel was in while thinking "this is the game i wanted because this is good. can i just skip the rest and have this in a brand new story"
Also, aren't people tired of this "I'm about to shoot you now but someone's going to shoot me first" trope that keeps on occuring?
I know I did.
@@godalmighty83 this serious? what's the title of the film? I think there can be a difference between being unapologetically silly by choice and simply silly in the process.
happens so many times..
"Trying to shoot me, huh? Well, the only one allowed to shoot me is ME!"
I remember two instances of this, how many more are there?
Never seen a man struggle so much, to say something nice.
Uploading Cohh's entire thoughts about this game is a good call.
100% agree Cohh, it left me pretty meh after finishing it, I don't think it's bad or good, it's just unfortunate and I feel bummed out.
That's like creating Witcher 4. Killing Geralt and then Ciri doesn't kill the bad guy after killing hundreds of other people. That's just a big FAIL.
That's literally what happens in the books. However, the whole thing is written in a different way. It's a bitter ending, but it's full of meanings. The ending of TLOU2 failed to transmit the meaning in an effective way.
I agree Dominic.
The writers were watching Game of Thrones while they were writing the Last Of Us 2
season 8 that is
It’s funny you say that because the co-writer also wrote for Westworld which is a negative vibe show.
hahaha Liam Pickering spot on... especially season 8
@@ringcarter Guessing season 2 of Westworld.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. This game is like dragging your balls through glass to get a average story delivered to you like it was the second coming.
@@jamesmullins1102 you might be right man, mass effect 3 had amazing graphics and gameplay too. I'm sure that's a beloved game.
@@darkinstinctful123 While Mass Effect 3 may've fumbled the landing it at least didn't change any of the characters into sociopaths for tropey reasons while stringing us along for the whole ride. The DLC really helped too. Whereas with this, we know Ellie and Joel won't have any more time together. Everything that was built up in the first game was stopped dead cold for the sake of shock value and a cliche story.
@@darkinstinctful123 Mass Effect 3 is still the best in the series in terms of story and gameplay. Ending was something to be desired, but they can still add onto it with the decisions you have made throughout the story. Imagine if they killed off Shepard right away on the 2n...oh wait, they did...then used technology to bring him/her back. Damn Cerberus :) But yeah, 3 was amazing from the start to 'almost' finish. After all this talk...I'm almost willing to try Andromeda for the 4th time.
@@jamesmullins1102 Honestly, the story was the only redeeming thing about the first game to me. It's combat is mediocre, it's progression system was bland and I'm not one to judge a game too much on visuals as long as it's not incredibly ugly. This game's story was just a god awful, condescending "Revenge is bad" story. They constantly had characters act out of character in a "I'm going to subvert your expectations" bullshit in order to create unnecessary conflict, they barely improved upon the combat and progression system of the first game. It's definitely one of those games you just play once for the story and never replay again games and sadly TLOU2 has a terrible story lol.
Just finished watching VODs yesterday. Man what a wild ride!
And got a few things to say...
- This is a really really good game. Not without flaws maybe, but definitely worth buying in my opinion.
- Yes, I am judging gameplay as a viewer, but seen two games full playthroughs almost back to back... If you liked the first one, you will love the second one. Same principals, with improvements.
- Story. Here I'll have to disagree with Cohh. The fact that this game is so polarizing is a pro to me, not a con. That means (to me) that, it has a really good Story to tell. Something to think about and worth discussing. It makes you feel something (good/bad ect.). It's not so easily forgettable. If the Story was bad, internet wouldn't blew up about it. People would be over and done with.
- Pacing. Honestly, loved it. It was like a little "stained glass window". All peaces eventually fell into place. And switching characters was a new storytelling move to me. Was a bit confused at the beginning, but got over it eventually.
Really enjoyed the playthrough ( watched like long TV series ). Thank you for playing this game for us and with some of us. May your playthroughs be long ! :-)
Am I the only one here who actually liked both the pacing and the story as well as the characters and scenery? Although to be fair, I've only seen a TLOU1 playthrough once, and didn't remember much, only the beginning and the end. This however floored me, and I've been watching different gameplays to see others' reactions and thoughts. I think it's fascinating.
The only downside I see is replayability, as the story is focused so much on the surprises and tension of not knowing what's going to happen.
You're not the only one, in fact, people who complain are mostly a vocal minority.
Brilliant review. I personally loved the game, and you're right, I saw something I liked and latched on to it. I loved how it explored and expanded the world of the TLOU universe and showed us different perspectives on justified violence and revenge. At the same time, it does very little to deepen the relationship between Joel & Ellie. Fans who were expecting the latter will undoubtedly be disappointed. I don't even blame them for not trying the game if they know the game isn't about that.
You definitely need to go in with an open mind and zero expectations of what's about to happen to get the most out of this, I think. The players who've got a preconceived notion of what they want this game to be are going to be getting something very different than what they expect. And you nailed it talking about the pacing issues. The entire second half, I was going "Why is this happening?" / "What am I doing here?", and you know the game's got problems when players are questioning the actions of the character they're controlling. It came together at the end for me and made me marvel at how the game was able to turn and develop a character I initially hated into someone whose actions I find entirely reasonable, but it was bogged down with tons of pacing issues in the fragmented narrative and filler gameplay. As a whole, I'd call this a solid 8.5/10
This for me will always be the reason why everything doesn't need a sequel smh
Well, if the sequel tries to go too far, yeah. Should have been about Joel and Ellie. Even if Joel died at the end to Abby in a more reasonable way of storytelling.
That's the most frustrating part I believe. They had the perfect case to make another great narrative. They failed. Dismally.
Fastest selling ps4 game tho so
@@MolitovMichelleX never said it wouldn't make money people wanted for this game for 7 years
@@MolitovMichelleX By a developer lying to it's incredible fan base via a marketing campaign that specifically targeted the existing fans to guarantee a purchase by clearly only showing people what they want to see which was Ellie & Joel. What's the saying... "What you don't know, can't hurt you?" Totally disrespectful to the fans.
[SPOILER DISCUSSION]
I feel like the lead writer let the critical acclaim of the first game go to his head, and with the internal issues of the other writers going away during the production of the second game, I think this lead to a sort of power vacuum in which Neil Druckmann (The lone writer) saw an opportunity to take the success, and the attention the first game would inevitably put onto the second game, and he tried to make a statement. I think he tried to be brave and make a cultural statement with the podium he earned for himself with the expert writing of the first game, but along the way forgot that what made the first game great. In my humble opinion, I believe the first game was not great because of it's overarching STORY involving finding a cure to Cordyceps and the involvement of the Fireflys, but instead it was great because it did an excellent job at taking two characters, and truly deeply exploring their relationship against a post apocalyptic backdrop in which a father figure will be tested to see just how much he will be willing to sacrifice for the sake of his daughter -even if she isn't truly his. It took what might have seemed like a simple concept, only it transformed it into something of a playable character study. Although the story was about finding a cure, the REAL story was about Ellie and Joel, and how Joel saved Ellie just as much as Ellie saved Joel literally and emotionally. It was simple, yet expertly executed. But here we are now, with Joel being brutally murdered in a way that subverts the fact he has managed to survive 30-40 years in a post apocalyptic world, avoiding ambushes, backstabbers, and bandits because he was always portrayed as a grizzled man who survived because he was smarter then those who tried to kill him, and ruthless when need-be. The difference between the two games I feel, is that Neil Druckmann stopped seeing his characters as PEOPLE, and started seeing them as pawns in his goal of making a social statement on revenge, sexuality and violence. . . a statement I seriously doubt anyone playing this game needs to be reminded of in this day in age. This idea that the characters in this game aren't really treated like real people and explored as they were in the first game, is exemplified in Joel's demise. I think any long time fan would have expected Joel to be smarter then to walk into a basement with a bunch of random strangers he just met while outnumbered and outgunned, regardless of circumstance. We are talking about a man who could sense an ambush just by seeing a man begging for help in the street in the first game. Yet he does so haphazardly anyways, and immediately is beaten to death in the purpose of being a catalyst for a revenge plot.
I don't think you understand the world of the last of us.
@@minners71 in' that just the kicker: it's imaginary, fruitcake. Get your diss packing and head west til the sun go down
Perhaps Ellie got her happy ending with Dina and JJ after all. Something important is nobody noticed Ellie is wearing the bracelet on her right wrist at the end when she returns to the farmstead indicating they reunited before that scene takes place because her wounds are healed up and everything. She only returns to that farm to leave the guitar behind
Before Ellie leaves to pursue Abby to California, a letter in the farmhouse from Jesse’s mother says that they’ll always have a home in Jackson should they choose to return to that community. This makes it pretty clear where Dina and the baby ended up at the end. But did Ellie ever reconnect with them?
Apparently, when Ellie heads to California, she is not wearing the bracelet that Dina gave her. Multiple images of the fight with Abby confirm that it is indeed not on either wrist at that time. However, when she’s back at the farmhouse, the bracelet is once again on her wrist. Ellie’s wounds have also healed, and it seems to be later in the year-fall, instead of the blazing summer heat. Ellie also doesn’t have any of her weapons on her, all of which seem to indicate this scene may not be immediately when she returns home from confronting Abby.
The theory goes that this is some time after Ellie got back. She’s already reconnected with Dina and the baby back in Jackson, and her wearing the bracelet shows that they’ve made amends. Ellie returns to the farmhouse to get the guitar-notice that she doesn’t seem surprised the house is empty or even call out Dina’s name. When Ellie sits down to play the guitar for the first time since losing her fingers, she realizes just what her pursuit of vengeance cost her, losing what Joel had given her. She sets down the guitar, says goodbye to that part of her past-both his death and his betrayal of her in the first game, two things she had been struggling with-and looks forward to the future and what she still has.
So perhaps Ellie and Dina got there happy ending, the player just didn't get to see it at the end. We just have small context clues that hint she reunited and they went back together in Jacksonville
Thanks for the upload redeye! And thanks to cohh for this very honest extended commentary!
I'm not through the game yet, but I know pretty much anything what will come, I just don't know the exact visuals of the events coming but because of all this discussion, I thought about something.
Just a little experiment, without changing the overall story, but the pace & order of events, maybe we could even pull something off by cutting just the original cutscenes and some gameplay with dialog, which happens all the time and could be useful, together and make some sort of "how it might have worked better" movie.
What if:
You don't skip that much time between introduction (Joel plays guitar for ellie and promises again to teach her). Instead, you play some of the flashbacks that come later in the game already directly after the opening scene, maybe with some additional missions connected to the town and live there. You also occasionally switch to "flashback Abby", to get her introduced one or two years prior in the timeline. Both timelines will come and clash together somewhere around a third or halfway through the game. In this Case, we saw the growth of Joel, Ellie and Abby but even then, Joels death would not have been certain, since we know Abby a bit more, we might nonetheless expect her to pull back in the last second, but she then kills him off anyway, which might be even more shocking than what they've actually done, since we would have expected a different behaviour from Abby.
After that, the real revenge shit goes down. Then the whole leadup to the most hate indulging events would be more understandable, the message would be clearer and the events of the revenge arc itself would have been much better in terms of pacing, at least in my opinion.
The Problem with all the flashbacks is, that they are basically, from a human psychological standpoint, already rendered useless by the events that happened just too early with too less background information for the player to maybe understand what justifies the behaviour of the characters. They already push you in a mindset about characters, which is not redeemable anymore.
Wouldn't it be a cool idea, to pull of a movie (or series) which would make it better in terms of pacing and making things understandable for the player? I'm pretty much certain, that we wouldn't even have to fake additional content. It's all there, but ordered, paced and executed in a way, which is most unclear and ultimately leads to the discussions and hate. The thing is, if a story is that unclear with it's message, just because of order and pacing, everyone will construct a personal thing which the individual WANTS TO UNDERSTAND. NOT what the creator has WANTED TO TELL! This is my opinion about the things, that are wrong with TloU Part 2.
I feel that the actions of the developer and Sony to copyright strike content commentators when they didn't even show any images of the game really soured me on this ahead of time. Several RUclipsers lost their income streams over this abuse.
When your game's strength is that it has an incredibly well-written relationship between two characters, you better have a great idea if you're going to axe one of those characters.
Ultimately, the series was about Joel and Ellie. Now that's gone and it was all done for shock value. Fair play to them for having the guts to do it I guess. However, there's no longer a reason for me to play this. I don't care to play TLOU 2 again, and I don't much care for a sequel.
Unfortunately, they didn't even include a multiplayer either so they got rid of both Joel and the amazing multiplayer. Where do I sign up to get paid for making such idiotic decisions?
And Abby will be a tank
I actually feel like they axed both characters. While Ellie survived her character was warped so much that the original Ellie is basically dead. I can't recognize the old Ellie in this new version of Ellie. They made her horrible on porpuse to make Abby look better, at least it seems like that to me.
@@robinheinemann1740 That's a good point. I didn't even think of that. Ellie and I'd argue even Tommy felt nothing like themselves in this game.
@@Gaulskull Lmao!
@Revanth That's good to hear but I already got rid of the game. If it turns out to be good I will re-purchase. I loved the original's multiplayer.
The first game let you play two people who evolved into something better than what they thought they could be. The second game let you watch one of them devolve in to what she was saved from becoming in the first game.
Finally, someone on RUclips who is not destroying this game just for clickbait and acting like this is the worst game ever made. Not because you dont like the direction the writers took means it's a horrible game. Their vision may just not be for you, Dont bash it for that. I personally love this game's story, gameplay and the bold decisions they made. They did something in story telling that's never or rarely been done before and I respect that.
Revenge stories like this are made all the time. And the LGBTQIA+ characters are cool, but that’s getting normal now (just look at any online streaming service, social media, and the morning news to see).
Just because they are a part of that community doesn’t mean they are better characters for not being straight.
When a character is only their sexuality, it’s not much of a character.
Also, Dina, Jesse, the whole scar plot line, and Mel got a huge disservice in this game.
That being said, the first half of this game was great, the second half was horrendous. Mainly due to story telling.
@@fredrick1176 the second part couldve done better sure with its pacing and story telling, I agree there. But it is not as bad as everyone is making it. If this was a standalone game without its predecessor no one would be so angry at it, I believe. They would just see it as an average to great game.
I always watch your thoughts videos because I feel like you are a person who really explains all the issues and good aspects of games... thanks Cohh :)
I dont understand where people thought a sequel would go.
Even asking my friends way before and the answer would be "Ellie is gonna find out the truth." Ok? And? "Joel is gonna have to deal with vengeful fireflies." Ok? And?
Nobody knew where this was going because there was nowhere to go. You can't go higher than the top floor. People don't understand that they wanted more character interactions but there's no more plot to go on with from the first game.
Very true. Dealing with fallout of the first game was really the only way to go. There are parts of this game where they take concepts from the first game but look at it through a different scenario, namely Abby's arc with Lev and Yara
You could make the story about forgiveness, conflict with those you call family, and how people deal with the lack of closure and grief. You could make it a story about dealing with loss and sorrow and grief, instead about revenge, violence and hate. You don't even need to change the story all that much. Start off the story with how Joel and Ellie's parent-child relationship is presented in the flashbacks, throw in some conflict by having Ellie find out the truth about the cure and the Fireflies (introduce Abby as an antagonist around here). Have Joel and Ellie's relationship crumble and start to break. Then kill off Joel by an ambush by Abby. Then focus on Ellie's journey as she chases after Abby while trying to sort out her own feelings towards Joel, balancing her desire for revenge and violence with her desire for closure and forgiveness. Make Ellie understand more about Abby using context clues and hints from the information she overhears while chasing after the group. As she chases after Abby, she sees other examples of people with grudges and revenge and sees the damage it can cause, and the damage it's causing to her. The climax can be kept mostly the same as the original game, but Ellie sparing Abby feels much more natural in this case as Ellie's primary motivation has changed from getting revenge to getting closure to Joel's death. Ellie makes peace with the fact that Joel had accepted that his past was eventually going to catch up to him and that despite the fact he cared very much for her, Joel was a flawed person who had made many enemies. She makes the decision to not waste her life, the life Joel died for, chasing after revenge and violence, as Joel had wanted her to be happy above everything else. The game closes with Ellie creating a makeshift grave for Joel, leaving his guitar there as she continues her travels, a more mature person.
Something like that? Make the game about Ellie, not Abby.
@@Birthday888 hey you know what? I dig that, you got a point. Damn shame, all this is more of a wasted opportunity lmao
@@Lakross101 Thanks! I stand by the fact that this game's story as it is was always going to be polarizing and divisive even if Neil pulled it off perfectly since it's so utterly bleak compared to the first game. The major misstep in this game was trying to make the emotional crux of the story lie with Abby instead of Ellie. If the player doesn't like Abby, then the game is going to fall flat. Considering they sacrificed Ellie's characterization from the previous game and Joel for an emotional gut-punch that makes most players instantly hate Abby, making people like Abby is going to be incredibly hard. Another problem is that by the end of the game Ellie has already endured so much trauma and has essentially already fallen by that point, so she doesn't have much to lose. By making the game becoming much darker and violent selectively during the points where Ellie is completely absorbed in her desire for revenge instead of making it consistently dark and violent throughout the game would make it much more apparent that Ellie's desire for revenge is destroying her. So that when Ellie is fighting Abby, we want Ellie to spare Abby for her own sake instead of Abby's, as killing Abby would effectively make Ellie fall and break as a person. This is what the game attempts to do, but it's undercut by the fact that Ellie has already done so much damage to herself as a person that killing Abby is more of a symptom of how broken she is instead of the cause of why she breaks and falls.
If you can justify latching on to “good bits” and giving something 10/10 masterpiece, then by extension you can do that with most products and the whole notion of reviewing ceases to exist. Most products out there have at least one good bit about them 🤷♂️
You can also do this with anything in reverse. Nothing is perfect. The reason some people think its 10/10 Masterpiece is because storytelling is subjective and someone may like a certain story more than others. (HP Lovecraft, below average author of his time...legendary trendsetter after his death...)
People can latch on to bad things and tear down a good thing or latch on to good things for a bad thing. In the end, it's all subjective.
The reason we're here is that there's far too many acting like their opinions are facts.
@@Aeeeoi liking something is subjective, quality is not.
TLOU2's story makes no sense whether people like it or not. it starts by joel acting like an idiot, continues by abby being an idiot and ends by ellie being an idiot. even though none of them should be this dumb according to TLOU1 and abby's backstory.
@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz No. This is wrong.
The quality of art is subjective itself.
Joel didn't do anything stupid. He HAD to follow Abby because zombies chased them to her base, he couldn't go back outside because of a blizzard.
Sparing someone or having mercy on someone is not an act of intelligence or stupidity.
Point is, art is 100% subjective. Anyone studying art would tell you this. My example of HP Lovecraft (and many other artists who only received praise long after they died) is literal proof of this. We had people in the 1900s saying Lovecraft was a terrible writer and we have people in the now worshipping his work.
You don't like it, that's fine, don't tell others that your opinion is fact.
@@Aeeeoi Abby the local war killer, and Ellie the girl that smashed a guy's head in for trying to molest her as a teenager, murdering a dozen people they don't know and then letting someone that swears to kill them live.
that is Nonsense and you'll have to explain it if you want to say the story is good. otherwise you just like a bad story, which is fine as long as you don't pretend it's actually good.
also, people praise lovecraft's ideas and concepts, not his actual writing. it was mostly mediocre then and it is now.
@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz What are you talking about?
First, People DO praise Lovecraft's writing. Trust me when I say you do not want to get into an argument with me on writing and literature.
Secondly. Please look at that scene again, people are forgetting things about it or simply didn't watch the whole thing.
It's easily explained why Joel goes with Abby. People keep saying its stupid which makes me wonder if they actually even watched the scene?
1.) He doesn't know who she is.
2.) He's on patrol, gets trapped with her fighting zombies.
3.) She helps him.
4.) Zombies trap them in a bar like place, they were coming through the doors, had no where to go so she offers to go to the baldwin place...a place Joel knows as he says "The Baldwins place...
5.) Zombies chase them ALL the way to the camp.
6.) It's a blizzard outside, Joel even says they'll just stay for the night until the blizzard blows over and be out of their hair.
Easily explained why he goes with Abby.
I can genuinely say Detroit Become Human, Days Gone and Death Stranding (all of which are criminally underrated) drew more emotions and were more thought provoking than tlou 2
those games and their characters are miles upon miles more interesting than every single new character introduced in tlou2, and tbh even more than adult ellie
imo of course
detroit and days gone are awful
@@PenguinsAreColdish no
@@sts9896 i mean... yes. days gone was a buggy mess on release and is still a soulless generic game right now and detroit's writing is literally the biggest joke and the script could've been made by a high school freshman
@@PenguinsAreColdishnot really
soulless generic game? lol
I won't waste my time with your dumbass comments anymore
@@sts9896 truth hurts, there's a reason it reviewed horribly
In short , The Last Jedi of videogames. The first one will always be highly cherished.
I will disagree here. I even think that The Last Of Us Part II is actually the best episode (despite being a bit too long for its own good), while SW8 even when considered 'good' by some people isn't considered being the 'best' of SW movies anyway
YT best/shortest explanation I've found on why The Last Of Us Part II is arguably AT LEAST as good as the first (even if the title he chose says ""flawed"" Masterpiece haha) : ruclips.net/video/UJ-Ly__HBJg/видео.html
God Damn, He explained that so well. That game is extremely Polarizing which says a lot about the story on its own. Everyone is trying to make their own reason as to why it was good or why it actually meant this. Now, Polarizing isn't necessarily a bad thing. Movies like Bladerunner and Inception do endings like this quite well but the general consensus is the same and most end up agreeing. The difference is that people liked those stories without needing a clear explanation for the ending. In TLOU2, I see people trying to make explanations for the ending so you can like the story. That is terrible.
I've never seen a fanbase so split up before.
If they ever do a part 3 the opening scene should be Joel waking up and part 2 being a bad dream he had...
no matter how later dev want to paint how likeable the other chars, the fact to ellie is the first time she saw her was clubbing with golf club the second time shooting jesse's face, and the third time she lost and failed, of course it haunts her for another shot of revenge, she also never see how friendly the dogs or these people are since the only time they show they all gang up to kill her including the vicious dogs. what's the point to make the player feel guilty of it.
Thanks for the genuine review. As usual, you are one of the most level headed and honest reviewer out there.
Moral of the story: don’t expect anything so you don’t get disappointed
Life would be dull like that..but I guess it should be the way to go at times
I wonder how different we would feel about this game had the flashback scenes been the first third to half of the game, and the present day stuff being the latter part of the game. It probably still would have felt like a bit of a let down, but I think it could have fixed some of the pacing issues
Almost to a word these were my exact feelings on the game after my initial play through. Since then I've only come to dislike the game more as I understand it better, but I still think your thoughts still ring true and are a great explanation of the discourse surrounding the game still to this day.
The problem is drunkmen became his own boss and his own yes man. Great review.
When Bruce left naughty dog,TLOU franchise was finished
Summed it up so well for me, thank you. I avoided the spoilers when they leaked and held off buying it until reviews came in... Now I'm happily swimming in spoilers and glad I didn't throw £50 away.
Once again, Cohh delivers with a honest and to the point review that really hits the nail in the head
Cohh only likes happy ending games with no gore where no one dies
@@teocaraba5039 Not true, he just likes games where the plot and people's actions make some sense in context
Best review I've seen for this game. A lot of people are trashing it without any logical reasoning. Thanks for taking the time to explain some of the flaws.
so basically this is a bad game? Writing is the most important thing for me. IDC about graphics.
If pacing is a make or break element for you, you will not like TLOU2
I loved the story, but the delivery and the pacing is something I had to tolerate to value the story
If you just care about the story and have NOT played the first one it is a bad game. If you did play the first one and just care about story then it is a really really really bad game and not worth your time. You are better off keeping those good memories of the first one and not have them ruined by the second game.
@@CarlosDiaz-je1bg the story itself isn't bad. Nobody's actually mad about the story, they're mad about the story-telling
@@michaelmaguire5 If a story driven game has an underwhelming story then that's a bad game in my book.
This is the best commentary on the game I’ve seen so far - basically hit everything I felt as well.
tLoU2 makes me think I missed something between the first game and the 2nd.
what imo the last of us 2 should have been: All of the flashback scenes in order building on Joel and Ellie's relationship to the point in which Joel tells the truth about the fireflies. Ellie has a similar anger as she had. she starts to push away and thats how we end the last of us 2 with those two in turmoil. this story would be about building a livable society together while we go through the roller coaster of joel and ellies relationship.
then you have the ability to bring in the "last of us 3" building 'abby' we see her story being built and we meet her friends all the way until we reach the point in which she hunts joel. in this way we introduce abby as a character that we have a chance to like and get on her side before she chips one in from 150yd out, because if you start with that many people, including myself will see the character as unredeemable.
This. The game's emotional stakes hinge entirely on making the player care about Abby, which her introduction actively hampers. Once Abby has killed Joel, a lot of players will actively want to not care about her or empathize with her. As the game's attempts of making Abby likeable and sympathetic are hit or miss even without her killing Joel, the outcome is rather predictable.
@@Birthday888 and... in some meta way (might be one of the polar things idk) - having to fight your own character - that you spent so much time farming and skilling up - .... it's "cooool?" .... like a "WHOA" moment - which it succeeded at -- > as for maintaining story and the likes... yah. all these heady sub themes received more play than the actual storyline. ambitious.. but flawed
One of the best views I've seen on this, I've been really trying to figure out all this controversy and I think you're completely right. There's something deep within the game that is truly amazing, but exactly as you say there's all this other stuff as well. People can choose to ignore either side or latch onto one, but the reality is that it's probably both. Which personally I think is at least cool and different and can create some debate and thought process. Thanks for this
Wow, super pleased you decided to provide this extended thoughts video. Looking forward to future streams.
I appreciate your review, and I am a bit sad you didn't enjoy the game as much as me. To me, as a fan of the first game, this was simply a huge step up, as if that was even possible. I felt the game challenged me on a completely other level than just game play. I didn't feel the heavy hand that many people are complaining about. Instead, I felt - again - challenged to, but not forced to care. I fully realized that this game isn't going to mean the same thing to everyone, nor are everyone going to have a good time with it. I even understand why so many people are angry. Hell, I was angry for a long time and when the perspective shift happened, I didn't want to keep playing. But I did, and I'm happy for it.
The story - for me - is about forgiveness. It's about the necessity to forgive someone, even someone that has done the most unthinkably evil thing to you or your loved ones. It's a very human story, and one told very well. I hope you give the game another shot a few years down the line, and I hope you can see it in another light, but then again, you might not, and that's ok I guess. Thanks for a very good summary of your thoughts.
Seeing him try so hard to find something nice or neutral to say was almost as painful as watching the 'hulk smash'* scene.
*This description can refer to any of two scenes in the game.
4:42 That right there is the shortest and most succinct theory as to why so many people hated this game, I have ever heard. I could not agree more. People waited YEARS, to see two characters they adored and loved and how they developed more together. The highs and lows the two would have. But instead were met with shock and wow factors to make a story seem more interesting "oh look I killed off this character that you all love, isnt our story sad and compelling?"
Just like my boy Reggie said: "If a game is not fun, why bother playing it?". This one will be a pass for me.
Jory Cassel the gameplay is amazing, Fun? Not really more like tense because that’s what they’re going for. Just like all movies aren’t happy ending like superhero movies.
@@FreeBandz658 I don't know man, games extremely rarely manage to move me somewhat dramatically. I am not saying they can't, I'm just saying more often than not story is a lot weaker compared to that of a renowned book or movie, wouldn't you agree?
@@FreeBandz658 It doesn't need a happy ending to be fun. It can be tense and fun at the same time. But just like you, the devs didn't understand that.
I really enjoyed it all. I went into the game thinking that it will be dark, Ellie will most likely make not so great decisions because we we're warned that it was gonna be about the cycle of violence and its consequences. If it ended on better terms for Ellie, the message wouldn't have passed as well. But I do understand why people didn't like it. I went into Abby's point of view neutrally, even though I was mad at her and it helped me enjoy her much better. I didn't like that it made me dislike Ellie, but I think that was one thing that made me really like the story too. If you look at it from this perspective: the character serve the story, not the other way around, you can enjoy the game better. They delivered the message they wanted perfectly, in my honest opinion. And they did warn us that the game was gonna be hard to stomach, because honestly, vengeance should never be a good thing and should never make you feel like it was a satisfying thing to do.
The problem is that the healthier version of vengeance is justice, and you can only really implement justice when there's a stable civilization or some form of society. If some bandit goes and kills your parents, are you supposed to just shrug and move on with your life?
@@Birthday888 It's hard, but yes. Because going after that bandit might cost more lives and more damage, to not only you but your surroundings. And if you die, maybe some people are relying on you. If you kill that bandit, that bandit's close ones will also want revenge. It's just not the good thing to do.
This game can be summed up in one sentence. " as a standalone game this is a solid 7/10, as a sequel, is a 0/10"
If it was a standalone game nobody would even care about Ellie or Joel. It would zero impact. Do i think the game is perfect or even a 8/10 no, does it deserve 0s and this ridiculous amount of hate, no
5-ish / 10
nods
I think the biggest issue is they didn’t start building Abby’s hatred upfront. Instead of having her find him at the 2 hour mark and just off him so soon into the game naughty dog assumes that because we’re fans we will stick around to stick it out but when you off a character like that so soon and don’t explain or justify the reasoning first then we are already starting this 25 ish hour game with a bitter taste our mouthes. If they wanted to truly make the game Abbys story and looking at it from the angle of, “Joel’s the bad guy cause he murdered her dad and doomed humanity,” well then show us that first don’t kill him then half way through try to justify those things because all we build up is hate even if we can remove ourselves and understand how someone could hate Joel. The story just would’ve been better if they built off those emotions and hatred towards Joel more.
I think we all wanted see the relationship building like we see in god of war between father and child in the game, now that they can allow themselves to build it up. Also I found Ellie really dislikeable
@@RubysWrath What? You liked The Last of Us 1 for what? Pretty sure TLOU is about Ellie and Joel
@@RubysWrath I get what you mean but not sure if I 100% agree with that.
But, one of the things the last game ended on was a question of whether Ellie knew Joel was lying or not and this game builds on their relationship in the flashbacks around the result of Joel's lie being unravelled by Ellie. Like, the story focusing on the repercussions of your actions on yourself and those you care about is seen in both stories and it felt like a natural progression for the story to go. I bet you that if this was the last game of a trilogy then I don't think the reaction would've been this big imo
@@RubysWrath you didn't play the first one, got it.
There is also the situation of the long crunch hours that many articles has discussed, the 70% of employees leaving during the creation of this sequel, dmca claims, the false five star reviews before the release of the game and other problems connected to Neil Druckmann. How can blind fanatics support this individual with the controversy of Uncharted 4 (forcing Amy Hennig out of Naughty Dog and rewriting her script), Joe Carnahan calling Neil a jerkoff and stated Neil took credit for the Uncharted with sabotaging other employees, adding Nadine solely to be stronger than Drake (and the brief controversy of Neil pairing Chloe and Nadine)? People will see what they only want to see, but with what Joe mentioned and what happened to Amy and the current games,
Man, I think the only thing I don't like about Cohh's community is when the slightest bit of negativity happens, there are a lot of people that go "OMG chat is sooooooo toxic wahh" like, disagreement is a thing.
they're babies on a soy diet.
There are pacing issues, and the social commentary is veeeery heavy, but one thing I've stood by since I've seen the leaks, and watched playthroughs is that Naughty Dog subverted the revenge narrative to deflate the male role in the game.
Think about every element of LGBTQ inclusion that you can find; the "bigot" sandwiches, the awkward relationship that Ellie and Dina are forced into on a revenge mission, the forced perspective of Abby; her design in general and the level of emphasis her perspective is given, the rushed and disrespectful death Joel suffered, the imagery of the central father figure being crushed under the heel of a clearly LGBTQ inspired character, and the contrivances made to play out this narrative. Even the marketing material hinted at the subtext.
In the 2018 E3 trailer we get a scene of Dina and Ellie dancing, they share a dialogue about all the other men being jealous of Ellie dancing with Dina, they kiss, and the following shot shows Ellie immediately slitting a man's throat. After the gameplay sequence, where Ellie beheads another man ends we immediately return to the shot of them kissing, and Dina repeats the line: "They should be terrified of you". The framing of that dialogue with the accompanied shots is the subtext of defeating toxic masculinity. The imagery is a means to convey a tone of disdain for the masculine role, whether by demeaning men like they did in the trailer, or dying through contrived means like Joel did to Abby; not only as a plot convenience (given the extenuating amount of circumstances that led Joel & Tommy eventually meeting Abby's group), but to frame his death as the defeat of a patriarchal role.
This is signified through Abby's design, and to clarify let me ask you: why did it have to be Abby? What makes her special? Her character is rather toxic, pushing her group into tracking Joel across the country, even insulting her friends with any resistance; "you want what I want right!?" ”I knew I couldn't fucking trust you." She's isn't an endearing character, but why are we forced into her perspective? ...Its her design. Everyone has seen the memes, and while some are just a joke, the criticism comes from an objective stance. Abby's reason for being in that role is because of her LGBTQ inspiration, there's nothing beyond her character that stands out, so to force her perspective they had to tie her to Joel though her father's death. Basing her main motive on a throwaway scene. As many people as Joel had killed, there were numerous characters that could have taken that mantle, but because her design was mean to appeal to intersectional demographics she was placed in the role to emphasize the gender disparity of herself and a patriarchal figure like Joel.
Jesse's death is an extension of this idea; removing the paternal role allows the writers to contrive a lesbian parent-child relationship. While I don't have a problem with Ellie's sexuality, it's clear that Druckmann took more inspiration from Ellie's character in Left Behind, than Part 1. He wanted to explore her sexuality in this game, but having her thrown into a love triangle to disrupt a potential ”nuclear” family unit to showcase her lesbian-hood is consistent with this games vision of demeaning the male role.
Lastly, to cement this as more than just a theory you only need to look at Druckmann's own interviews, and talks he's given. He's stated the Anita Sarkeesian's Feminist Frequency had an influence on Part 1. Particularly in their monster designs where the original pitch was that only women became infected with the fungal strain, but it was later changed because as it was as Druckmann put a "misogynistic" design choice. I imagine the idea of beating infected that used to be women would have elicited imagery of domestic abuse, so they avoided that choice. While that isn't a problem the minds behind these choices continued progress their game design with that philosophy, and it's reached a point where the narrative and writing have overcompensated with part 2's symbolism. Now they elevate female empowerment through emasculation; where father's are killed and spat on, men are insulted, demeaned, and plot conveniences are contrived to tell the story they want, even if it's antithetical to it's core characters and tone of the last game.
The reason the game failed, was because of bad writing, pacing, and rejecting the spirit of the last game, but all these compromises were made to accommodate the intersectional elements that were not present in part 1. The commentary on society, with underpinnings of breaking gender roles doesn't fit the setting the Last of Us had set for the audience, and given the drastic changes made to form the narrative only shows that Naughty Dog was willing to give up anything to make this game a reality, and if nothing else, is the only consistent trait that these characters have demonstrated; reminisce on what Owen said: "I want the same thing you do... but not at any cost."
Completely agree. Well said.
It's "the last jedi" of video games.
In other words the last jedi of us.
The Last Last Of Us
GOT Season 8 / the last jedi of videogames.
I totally agree with the fact that the pacing was off, but the part where you said, that you expected to have a cool ending, a cool journey... What do you mean by cool? Good? Bad-ass? Happy? I think that the fact that they showed how cruel, unfair and sad life can be made the game good, and the fact that it is so polarizing shows that we're not actually mentally prepared to make difficult decisions in life, that we are driven by all the cliché the majority of books, movies and games throw at us. This is, of course, my personal opinion, just as the video is yours, I don't want to change people's opinions about the game, I just think that this kind of unease and "not cool"-ness the game offers is the real deal, and it is as hard to pull of as any other "cool" or "socially acceptable" ending. I hope everyone has a good day! Good vibes to you all!
I always say "Not every story needs happy ending but it has to be a hell of a story" and sadly I don't think part 2 was one of these stories. First half was arguebly ok, I thought: "You had to kill Joel to deliver the story, fine", but when I got to second half and understood I am basically stuck with character I dislike and have to watch all of these panic and poor attempts to make her more likable, I was like: "right.... so where is the skip button?". And when I feel like the story was mediocre, I think delivery was terrible, so 100% with cohh on that one. I was disappointed. Graphics, audio and gameplay definetly delivered.
That's interesting, because I had the opposite experience, by the end of the game I liked who Abby was more than Ellie
@@MorganWilliams77 Which was the point of the story, in my opinion. It was showing that everyone has their own motivations and that evil is relative. I think that the story was brilliant, but people just can't think past Joel's death. I wish people would critically think about this story and how it was told, more than just: "I wanted to kill Abby and couldn't. Wah!"
If they cannot get the large majority of people on board with Abby which writer trying to. It is the failed narrative
@@TheMozardd I think selling 4 million copies means they aren't losing much sleep over it 🤷♂️
Nicholas Shelton on the other end, I wish people would critically think about the delivery of the overall message of the story. Compared to the first one, this is not a “masterpiece”.. to state “I wish people would critically think” implies that you have the right answer and viewpoint of the game and those who disagree are unable to grasp the message, which is wrong. I did not like Abby at all, didn’t resonate with her through her gameplay and didn’t care honestly. But I know what the point was, it just didn’t hit with me and almost about every other TLOU fan
Fantastic review hit the nail on the head by a million miles great 👍🏻
I’d like to see people try and push the narrative of not liking the game because of “homophobia” or “transphobia” when it’s Cohh giving criticism because we all know Cohh is neither of those.
It's not just Cohh either, a LOT of streamers disliked the story. What pisses me of are the the streamers that go:"hmmm... I liked this game, so the people hating on it are just WRONG."
It does make me appreciate the people that understand why people don't/do like it more though.
I dont onn own a Ps 2,3 or 4 and have no intention on buying a PS5 when it comes out, but lot of my friends do and love it to bits. it's one of the reasons i like to watch Cohh. I watched the playthrough of tlou2 and only stuck with it to the end because it was Cohh, two of my friends bought, played and hated the game, so much so that they tried to return it the day they bought it and were Told that unfortunately the normal policy of 10 days return money back and Trade in on TLOU2 was suspended until further notice (this was at GAME in the UK) i have now heard similar stories about other retailers in both the UK, US and Australia doing the same what do you think about this, is it fair to suspend normal practices for this or any other game release??. The actual reason my friend Mike was given was that due to Covid-19 they were suspending returns and trade-ins on ALL games, although as he pointed out the customer before him traded in an old console and games to buy a special edition TLOU2 PS4 so it didn't hold water
dnt think i've seen cohh so disappointed with a game for awhile. you could see towards the end the game was just making him angry. Such a step down from a great game its unreal. It goes to show the talent from naughty dog left and after 1 and this is what you get. happens to all the great studios at some point.
No, it does not just "happen" like this in every studio... they had a 70% turnover of employees, (DURING the development of TLoU2) that is worse than the restaurant industry, wich has one of, if not the, highest turnovers of any industry.
It also felt like the story of Ellie being immune was really left on the back burner for Ellie to focus on revenge. It just felt more like it was a cool characteristic of her instead of a plot point. They should have had Ellie meet Abby and then form some friendship before meeting Joel in Jackson. That could have been a better way to go about it.
Naughty dog let cohh down huh..that said something about that game
Thanks for being honest! I liked this review and think it hit all the points no one really has talked about in depth with the feelings you're explaining. I remember when the development studio took to Twitter and had asked the public if they wanted a second part, I for one voiced a, "No." I think being left with many questions from the first game was what stayed with the player. Did they both live on? Did they both die over time? Did a cure ever become available? I think sometimes, when a story doesn't answer all your questions, it leaves an impact on the player and stories like that can be good. Like a simple question would be, do we even know the origin of this virus? No, we don't and it's never really explained.
I kind of agree; I have regrets about this game (just finished it myself tonight) because of the opportunity cost; I can appreciate this is what they chose to make but making TLOU2 more or less be a fairly hollow revenge story... it just isn't a very interesting usage for this IP and sequel. The *OTHER* story elements in the game were fantastic; the greater story arc and themes involving the war between the scars and wolves were fairly amazing and ended with that giant climatic sequence on the island.. fucking amazing. Getting a window into that conflict and the scars ALMOST made the Abby sections worth having to play. Still think overall it felt like an intelligence-insulting, overly direct 'you should feel guilty about wanting revenge, you are bad too' which just doesn't land with me because these are shitty fucking terrorists (literally, as former fireflies) who wanted to murder a kid.. The whole idea that Joel's original sin was equivalent to theirs I just never bought into or accepted and it caused a lot of scenes to ring hollow.
All fireflies deserved to die, ALL of them!
It's also rather irritating because there are unavoidable events where you play as Ellie, which then the game tries to guilt-trip you for doing when playing as Abby. "You know that dog we forced you to kill? Guess what? It was Abby's dog and she loved it! You're a horrible person. Don't you feel guilty?" "Not really, you're the one that forced me to kill it." "Nuh-uh. You totally killed that dog and it's all your fault!!"
Really fair and honest thoughts! It was a really enjoyable playthrough to watch and I loved what you picked up on right a ways vis a vis themes. Also really liked hearing your thoughts on the pacing
"I give the pacing of the story, 2 lost fingers out of 10."
'Nuff said brother, 'nuff said.
Finished the game last night. Went to shower this morning and tried to put into words(thoughts) why this game felt so conflicted. And here Cohh says pretty much all the same things that I came up with. To add some, I didn't like the prolonged epilogue and I was basically so burned that I just ran it through. It also tells a lot about the game that my favorite scene was the space shuttle thing with Joel and Ellie.
Ignoring the fact that the main character dies early on in a pathetic manner, I think if you had your fingers bit off while exacting your revenge you'd be seeing red and finish the job. But really, Joel never should have died.
As a casual gamer, my thoughts are that the visuals and gameplay are top notch. As far as the story goes, I didn't hate, I didn't love it either. I thought it was just okay but enough to keep me engaged till the end. But my biggest take away from the game and what I think most people missed is that it's about accepting people and situations for what it is. Cause Ellie had an "ah ha" moment at the end but some failed to see due to anger. With that said, for me gave closure.
the 10/10 positive USER reviews were people who found something they liked and latched on to it, 10/10 critic reviews are untrustworthy hags.
Remember Outward one of the game Cohh played? IGN gave it a 5/10.
How about the Last of us 2? They gave it a 10/10 -_-
Lol you should read the comment section of their review 😂
A lot of the 10/10 user reviews are bots as well from what I've seen. Basically reviews that say the same things and all, it's just weird.
One major issue I had with this game and did not see it mention anywhere was that this story just did not need Ellie and Joel. It was a run-of-the-mill revenge story, had nothing to do with Ellie's condition and Abby's reasons for revenge was contrived anyways, being the daughter of a nameless enemy Joel kills in the first game (in self defense, I might add, you, as the player had no choice in the matter), it could have been anything else and wouldn't make any difference in the end. I feel that Joel and Ellie, their story, their relation was just wasted on this mediocre revenge plot.
I hate being told to limit my expectations in order to enjoy something. I shouldn't have to do that. No fan should have to do that.
the problem is how they ordered it, they should have started with abby honestly, then swap around between her and elie untill where the game starts at, give better story progression, actually add all the things that elie had in her note book like the boar hunting, not model swap characters in end game product with what they showen, swap between the 2 durning the seattle days, not jumpcut about a year or so after thier confrentation, and give the player psudo option, go after abby, loose everything because of it, and elie decide to let her go because of her interaction with joel that she cant forgive him, but would like to try, or, stay with dina, work through this problem and traumatic stress together, letting tommy deal with it, play as tommy and actually get revenge in the cost of killing him due to all his privios injuries (seemed like he had potential spine and leg problems?) it still wouldent make it TLOU part 2, but it would be less shitty then it is currently.
I felt like as soon as we had to play Abby again I was already hating that character and didn't want to play her because of that hate. The game literally became unenjoyable once I had to start playing her.
Fantastic review. Thank you for your honesty and articulation, Cohh.
I realised how bad the writing in this game is when i watched Cohh's playthrough. That moment when Ellie is captured for the first time (when they kill her horse) and those two guys have that whole "we need to kill her" conversation, so that the what's-her-name has the time to come and kill one of those guys and buy Ellie even more time to grab that stupid knife the guy LEFT RIGHT BESIDE HER. Plot armor and lazy writing is strong with this one.
I mean the first one also had a lot of plot devices. I can live with the occasional deus ex machina. This game has lots of Problems. Gonna be honest, I skipped 10 Abby episodes because that was such a stupid cliff hanger. Maybe going to watch them later.
I just really don't like how they did the story and how they changed the characters to fit the narrative they wanna show.
Wrong it wasnt even a knife it was a piece of glass that fell with her gf from the roof, if you're gonna critizice the game do it right not with made up shit
aullik you need to watch Abby to understand the full game
@@TheRevanSentinel Maybe but when a game puts me in a really bad spot to get something that I do not want, than its not a very good game in my book.
I know that Elli is wrong. I also now that Abby is also wrong. I know that they are showing me some growth of her, after she fulfilled her revenge. But I honestly do not care much about her and its pretty hard to get me to care about her. She is not a likable character and she starts out as the one that killed someone I like. So not the best start.
I think your polarising comment is spot on. I personally loved the game, but it's because of the way I interpreted things in a certain way that made the story come together really well for me. But like you said, it's just as easy to make negative interpretations that can make it really bad for some people. My only issue is, while I actually like Abby, her portion was way too long, at least her first Seattle Day, and for me, it only felt this way because you are just waiting to get back to the theatre. And I didn't like Ellie's Open Area either. The rest I loved though, but it does really all come down to how you interpret certain things. Great review though, even if I disagree overall.