As a Brit, let me tell you, your skewed American view is bang on the money! Between 1996 and 2015 I bought a new Defender every 4 years for work/ private use: 300TDI 90 pick up (replaced second hand 200TDI that got stolen) Td5 90 pick up 2.4 Tdci XS hard top 2.4 110 utility 2.2 110 XS Utility The last one purchased in 2015 was £33,000 including Vat ( top of the range model). In 2019 there was no new Defender so couldn’t buy one! In 2020 there was new Defender (Discovery 6) starting price £50k ! Couldn’t afford one and didn’t want one! 30 years ago Land Rover only made 3 vehicles Defender- Utility (me) Discovery- well off family Range Rover- Luxury Now they make seven vehicles and there is less choice as they are all different flavours of the same thing - luxury SUV! There is so much crossover they mainly compete with each other as you pointed out . Sadly Land Rover has turned its back on customers like me by moving everything further up market. Watched you Defender vs Wrangler in deep snow vid . As a lifelong Defender fan I’d have to take the Jeep over the new Defender every time!😂 ( I imagine it would feel refined compared to my 2015 truck)!
Almost every manufacturer is moving upmarket. They make more money per vehicle sold, so why bother making cheap vehicles. Everyone just takes out loans they can't afford anyway
True. I have a new defender here in aus and absolutely love it. I also love the grenadier, but in RHD there is a massive lump in the driver's footwell that is a deal breaker for me unfortunately.
You’re probably getting old and nostalgic for a perceived golden age which is probably when everyone was in their twenties and thirties. Nothing after that age, for a majority of people, is ever as great again.
@@kacperzabczyk4559 Even the tech and screens are now very very similar. There is now very little to distinguish one model and brand from another and they are all well equipped luxury vehicles. Brand loyalty has become a thing of the past. Jaguar have totally given up on their existing brand and heritage so one might as well buy a BYD or other new or unknown brand.
I agree. The Defender is what the Discovery 3 and 4 used to be in their day. The Defender has eaten the Discovery’s sales as a result. I like the look of the Disco but it’s gone more SUV than 4wd. Push Defender to more rugged and Discovery to where Defender is sitting. Unfortunately I can’t see Defender ever returning to a Grenadier style vehicle though. The small LR’s are squarely aimed at mall crawlers.
@@Villani_AVthink again, they have depreciated a lot from the lack of sales in the us. I got an 18 diesel in the us for 23k. As for Matinence issues they set a friggin 16k mile oil change on this unit. No way in hell I’m waiting that long to change oil on anything. I do it at 6k otherwise it’s small things and shitty dealer service departments that cause problems. When you have to tell a dealership how their own car works then your know your screwed and yes that has happened to me already. Saved 2,500 because they wanted to replace something that only needed a software update they didn’t know how to do. Shameful honestly.
idk....depreciation is certainly a big hit but that's also true of every luxury marque. Does the average buyer of a $1-200K Range Rover really think about depreciation? As for reliability I know a lot of the general public thinks of the brand as terrible in that regard but they aren't as bad as they make out. Heck, they general public also thinks Toyota is the pinnacle of reliability and their recent products have been anything but. Both are living on a reputation built decades ago in that regard.
At this point, I think they deliberatly make it unreliable, so that it feels inherently British. Because seeing how fast Kia turned around from the early 2000's to the mid 2010's, and where they are now, there's absolutely no excuses for Land Rover/Ranger Rover, especially at the prices they're selling them!
Just bought a Defender in July. It was the perfect vehicle for my wife up here in Maine. Comfortable, plenty of performance for her to throw around corners (she drives like Ricky Bobby) and tons of capability in the snow and most importantly - it looks awesome. I will say that I had an experience just yesterday at the JLR dealer. While I was waiting on my service advisor to help a lady with her Range Rover, she made quite a comment about how "unfortunate it is that she had to share the service department with these trashy Defenders". LR can't go down market I don't think without alienating some of their more .... elite .... customers. It would be the Wagoneer issue in reverse.
As a fellow Mainer, I went Bronco Sport Badlands. 85-90% of a common LR usage without all the cost and I don't have to worry as much about scratches or body damage. hehe. If I spent mint on a LR, I would have to wax it every day out of love. The BadSport I'll just Car Camp out of and won't worry about logging road dust or mud splashes. ;)
I just paid $94k for my Defender...How are we the unwashed masses? She sounds dreadful and honestly, the only kind of person to say something like that is probably broke with payments that are keeping her from even fully furnishing her home with tacky, new garbage.
I live in Colorado and own a Land Rover Discovery 5 TD6 HSE Lux with the three rows of seats, full off-road package, including center and rear locking differentials, and the towing and cold-weather packages. At the time when I purchased this vehicle in 2017, it was unique! It had the room of a full-sized Range Rover at a much lower price tag and a wonderful blend of capabilities that made it a truly versatile SUV both for a family driving long distances across the Western United States and Canada, and providing the capabilities needed for my off-road explorations. I purchased 20 inch aftermarket off-road wheels and Falken AT3X all-terrain tires instead of the factory 21 inch wheels and on-road biased tires. This vehicle has lived up to its billing as a versatile vehicle. The seats are larger, and the interior hip and leg room are more comfortable than the current Defender, and the rear cargo area has larger capacity than the Defender 110. In my opinion, The current Defender models are more about styling than about capability. Yes, the shorter front and rear overhangs make for better approach and departure angles than on the Landrover Discovery 5. However, the air suspensions don’t differ between the two models, and the same All terrain 2 four-wheel-drive systems with locking center and rear differentials are present in both models. Having driven both the new Defenders and the Discovery 5, the Discovery is more comfortable for long distance driving and touring, and it has a smaller turning radius than the Defender. I agree that the current Defender feels more like the successor to the Discovery 4 than does the current Discovery 5. Looking at the price tags for new vehicles, I am extremely hesitant to part with my Discovery 5 especially when the newer vehicles have much lower fuel economy and really don’t offer much except different styling and more up-to-date electronics. In my opinion, the new Defender Octa is a wonderful vehicle, but it is aimed clearly at the Range Rover buyer who wants a more rugged looking vehicle.
You are aware that the early D5 fitted with the Ford-made diesel V6 engine has a very high chance of eventually breaking its crankshaft? There are apparently already examples of the same basic engine breaking cranks in the current model Ford Ranger where it is a popular option outside America. Apart from that small but significant risk, the D5 is indeed the current entry level Range Rover and a far better one than any previous to the current and last full-fat Range Rover models. It’s luxurious and rugged, capable spacious and refined.
@@hedydd2 I’ve have a 2018 Td6 and it’s been totally reliable. I did halve the dumb 16k oil changes which I think is the leading cause of the Ford engine problems. 40mpg on bio-diesel.
The full size discovery is just much more usable than a Velar. I think it out styles it as well and sets up much better as a off roader. I think anyone considering a Velar or a Defender should also consider the Discovery. It's definitely underappreciate. I prefer it over the defender and would not consider a Velar over it.
The freelander used to be the cheap entry into LR. More road based than the defender and less upmarket than the discovery. I had a facelifted freelander which was great, had decent 4x4 capabilities, never got me stuck anywhere and was a good compromise between the suv shaped vehicles that have no off road ability and something that does.
I think you both totally nailed it here. I hope the Landrover design team see this excellent presentation and take on board what you have highlighted. There is far too little differentiation between Range Rover and Landrover now. I agree totally that the Discovery 5 needs a complete re-design. As for discovery sport and evoque, I think the 2.0 Litre Ingenium diesel engine has been a disaster of an engine in terms of reliability/total failure.
Hi from England UK. I was in a land rover dealership yesterday and my opinion is the defender is just awesome, i love the rugged design of the interior yet it still has premium parts to it, just with a rubber floor and harder materials in heavy wear areas. The dash is so nice and clean and practical, better than everything BMW etc are doing. If they could make a small defender, not 110 to 90 smaller but more like a defender sport then this be much better than the discovery sport which is fairly popular in my affluent area 30 miles west of London but it is a family car, tip run car - no need to have leather carpet and chrome everywhere.
i agree. having a $150k vehicle for off roading is such a small niche and it won't sell well. but you offer a budget and rugged version of the defender and it will then compete with the bronco and jeep again and steal some of their sales.
Exactly, no one but the very rich are willing to go out and thrash and scratch up a $150k vehicle. Most people doing off-roading type activities know their vehicle is going to get some scratches and dents. That’s a much easier pill to swallow when the repair costs $500 vs several thousands of dollars.
I agree about the need for a smaller "defender sport" to fill the role of the original Defender/Series Rovers. Simple, robust, and easy to modify for the end-user's needs. But there seems to always be a market for halo big hp flasy rigs like the Octa. Perfect examples being the TRX and Raptor R. Sure some people will actually take them off-road but most are just buying for image and HP which if we are honest is not that important for serious off-roading. It's fun for dune bashing or desert running, but 250 hp wheels just as well as 500 on the Rubicon. Or even 95 if you're a yota 22RE guy. Wanna build a flashy "superSUV"? Go ahead and knock yourself out. But then build a smaller one you can actually sell more than 3 of.
The Discovery line isn’t that desirable. For the money most folks would upgrade to Range Rover and that shows in the sales numbers. A mini Defender would be a real winner
Very nice video! Great questions and just as developed and thoughtful answers. I was one of the old school Land-Rover (with hyphen) lovers. Got out of the brand when it appeared B.L. would never return to the NADA market. Keep up the great work, TFL! I'd not rule out there may come a day when I'll buy a Land Rover Defender for use here on Molokai. I'll love these products. This having been said, I'm still greatly impressed with the reliability of my 2012 Jeep JK Unlimited Rubicon I've had since new, and the Jeep's ability to go places no Series IIA or III Land Rover known to me could or would go. Andy McKane, 20 November 2024, Maunaloa, Molokai, Hawaii.
Owned a 2023 Defender 90 for 14 months now and love it, so glad I moved away from Jeeps. The Disco is an odd ball right now for them, I loved the LR4 style but the current one went to much Range Rover in style I think.
They need to figure out how to make a RELIABLE vehicle, first and foremost. Their top-of-the-line vehicles outselling their entry level is understandable; people buying into the brand at the top are most likely not concerned with future maintenance costs due to their account balances or their desire to trade in before the warranty lapses. People buying vehicles in the Discovery Sport price range have a plethora of comparable options with longevity and most likely have to take long term costs into account based on their tax bracket; I know I do. Land Rover does not seem to understand how to make a vehicle worth buying apart from appealing aesthetics.
Having owned a Defender now for a few months and being involved in the forums and Defender community, I can say that with the exception of a few things like the daytime running lights going out, fragile windshields getting chipped easily, issues with parking sensors, and issues with the D200 diesel over in Europe - it seems that the new Defender is actually quite reliable.
I am a huge fan of 2010-2016+/-Land Rovers. I’ve owned 4 Range Rovers and Range Rover Sports from this era and currently still have two. The LR4 was always one of my absolute favorite vehicles ever, by any manufacturer. I was so excited for the new model (Discovery 5) but was let down by the styling when it was finally shown. The rear 1/3 is very odd looking proportionally around the rear wheel wells, too rounded at the lift-gate and they nearly eliminated the iconic stepped roof completely. The Discovery needs to go back to more like an LR4 in terms of styling, but perhaps with more luxury than the Defender in order to differentiate it better. Keep locking rear differential as an option, better, make it standard again as it was on 2010-2013 models. I still would choose the current Discovery over the Defender simply because I value exclusivity and Defenders are everywhere, but please, bring back more rugged styling for the Discovery! The LR4/Discovery name has a rich history of unique rugged styling and capability that also bodes well as a family hauler. The vehicle needs to look the part as they once have. I’m itching for a new Discovery with loads of leather, space for my kids but also boxy rugged styling. The Lexus GX hit the styling and capability points just right, but totally missed on the cheap, dark plastic filled interior. Land Rover has the leather lined interior down just right but not the exterior styling.
The old reliability trope isn't based in reality. Anybody complaining about that hasn't owned a well taken care of LR. Ask any LR owner, they are very loyal to the brand year over year and its not for no reason at all. I bought my Defender V8 and it's hands down the best vehicle I've ever owned. If Defender and RR is out of your budget, they have the Disco for you but if you're looking to offroad obviously you're looking for something else. Defender is the most offroad capable luxury vehicle on the road today
I live in the uk and when you are talking about units sold in the US, the reason the discovery sport doesn't do well is because Americans love large suv's and the discovery sport is considered small to you guys, that's my perception anyway. In the uk we have a lot of discovery sports around.
Living in NJ, I see a lot of Land Rovers and Range Rovers. Two things I’ll say, JLR hit a home run with the Defender. They are everywhere, and with good reason, they are great looking vehicles. Second, I was thisclose to buying used LR4, but I have a reliable vehicle that I’m almost done paying off. That said, that body style is epic. Squared off, 3 rows, with a split tailgate and stadium seating. Why they went away from that for the new disco 5 is a mystery. Bring back the box!
I own an older discovery. I feel like the defender is now what the discovery used to be. They turned the discovery into something entirely different. If I were shopping for something today, it would be a defender.
The problem is that they make profits on the up-market products. 50 years ago they were farmer trucks. The original Range Rover was an accidental hit, and the first Discovery was a response to the Japanese that was a huge hit in the UK. Then came the Freelander, again a popular slightly up-market SUV. But that was when they had Rover, later Ford to provide components to amortise costs. Since Tata acquired them, they have to source all their own main components, and as their market presence at the top end has grown (more full sized Range Rovers built in 2023 than Mercedes S class) that's where they are concentrating 'cos that's where the profit is. With the benefit of hindsight, the Defender has well and truly eaten the Discovery 5's lunch. But the Discovery Sport still sells reasonably well here in the UK as a up-market family hauler - think of it as a rival to the Volvo XC60 or BMW X3 with better off-road credentials. And the styling is a matter of taste - I think that the Evoque and Disco Sport look good, it's just that the proportions of the Disco 5 are wrong - and from the sales figures this side of the Atlantic, lots of buyers agree. These are more aerodynamic than slab sided models, which benefits fuel economy - an important factor here There's insufficient sales to justify either an Ineos rival or a pick-up. Look at Ineos's disappointing sales, and the fact that a number of manufacturers have abandoned the European pick-up market (including Nissan and Mitsubishi, once the market leaders). There's no way that they could sell enough Defender pick-ups to repay development costs. Who is going to spend £50k + on one when they can still get an Isuzu or Ranger for £25-30K? The commercial Discoveries and Defenders, by the way, are simply made with no back seats and still have rear glazing, so they qualify as commercials for UK tax purposes, and are very much a specialist product. They still vastly outsell Ineos's commercial offerings - the "half van" Grenadier and Quartermaster. It's a shame they are moving up-market, but that's business. BTW - I'm a long term LR owner - Disco 1, Freelanders 1 & 2 and Disco Sport, and my current manual 4x4 averages 42MPG +. Shame now that I am retired it'll probably be my last LR.
They don’t make their own transmissions, axles, steering, V8 gas engines or many components that make up the rest of the vehicles. Back until the 1990’s they made everything in house including all engines [apart from VM diesels for Range Rover] manual transmissions, transfer boxes and both axles on all but the 110 Defenders which used Dana at the rear [known as the Salisbury axle]
Totally agree with everything you guys discussed here. I feel exactly the same. Glad to hear sales are robust for the new Defenders and here’s hoping quality control continues to trend upward.
Outside of enthusiasts and the wealthy, nobody cares about this brand at all. Off road Enthusiasts will stop caring once the old models dry up on the used market. Everyone thinks they're unreliable and expensive to repair. The Defender is now a stretched out Honda Element with Unibody construction. Considering their reputation in the US, I think the company is doing about as well as it can here. They made the Defender more approachable to normal people and celebrities keep the flagship RR as a real status symbol. There's really not any room for anything else underneath because shoppers actually start to care about what they're buying beyond the nameplate/luxury once that price drops down enough. Always a way better option out there under 80k than whatever LR/RR can build, even the Defender. They would need to build factories over here to get prices down and that's a risky proposition that will never happen. I can definitely see a future where they pull out completely except for the flagship and maybe the Defender. This scenario is far more likely than any resurgence brought about by new lower tier models. It's a luxury brand for fancy people on the coasts and big cities and it's very unlikely anything will change that.
I have both a Defender 110 and Discovery 5. My Defender is more capable than any offroad vehicle in snow and mud. I lifted the Discovery installed offroad tires and drove it in the mountains in North Carolina on a camping trip with my buddies. No issues! What are you talking about😂?
The Discovery Sport was initially the Freelander 3, (LR2 in the US). Its not a full-time 4x4, uses a haldex system to engage the 2nd axel when needed. So mostly 2wd. Better for on road economy etc Of course it has terrain reponse, so very capable! Would love to see a LR2 comparison on the channel! They are gaining in popularity here in the UK now they are 10 years old, they are getting some mods for offroading.
Hey guys, great video-cast. I have a Defender 3 ( LR3 with you in US ) and I love it, perfect farm vehicle. I also have a new Defender D300 and that is excellent, no reliability issues ( however, it has had a new sun roof and a new windscreen in 2 years ). Perfect car pairings and yes the new Defender is the best Discovery that Land Rover never built ( quote from Richard Hammond, Grand Tour ).
The real problem is that companies think people want 50k-100k vehicles for off roading but no! 70% of the market want a 20-30k vehicle that they can pay off faster and then speck it themselves as and when they want it. I mean off roading is all about having the freedom. The root cause is, from a business perspective 70% of profits come from the luxury sector, kind of like hyper cars segment. More luxury cars means less bulk manufacturing and less cost involved with much higher margins of profit. With rising costs of production, it’s kind of no brainer that companies are following this unfortunate trend.
most ,we, I want a utility , what sports utility vehicle's middle name is or was , the new LC is. good step if is was in the ineos . defender 130 price range ,Ii want a more utilitarian LC 300
@ Exactly. From a business perspective and if we look at it through an owner perspective then it kind of makes sense but then it also doesn’t make sense that they can’t even offer a bare bone vehicle which also reduces expenses, since installing too much tech is what costs more production money.
@@StormWalker101 most new cars etc have safety tech we need and will use , we all don't want or need power fold heated cooled touch screen for each passenger , hands free driving , cost and added wt ,
Great video guys. I love my 90 V8 and love the rims on new Octa 20". So much so I put a set on my 90. I think $150K+ for the Octa is a bit too steep for a Defender IMO. It will be interesting to see how many of those get built and sold each year.
Disco 5 doesn’t drive like a Landrover, you sit inside it. Reliability- let’s see how they go with a few more miles on em…. Disco 5’s start leaking badly at 100K
I always liked seeing the first couple generations of discoveries driving around when I was a kid. They still look good today. Land Rover would sell tons of them if they brought back the squared off styling and raised stadium seating roof line with a roof rack. Maybe even a smaller Xterra sized entry level disco too.
Bronco raptor 392 wrangler are both infinitely better options for the money that can actually off road and have amazing resale value! Apples to apples in my opinion because they are all expensive and stand out. Its the same kind of rigs these folks are out to get.
I personally really love my 2021 Disco5.... but there is no denying the 2016 LR4 is more attractive to look at. I would take the interior of the current Disco and the Exterior of the LR4 any day over anything Land Rover is selling today
Jaguar is done in the USA if they go 100% EV....at least for the next 4 years. It would be nice to be able to build your new Land Rover the way you want it. A V8 in a base model 110 with cargo windows would be tempting
I’d love to see LR revive the “Series” name as a model and produce something more rugged/basic like the Grenadier which I own. I’m more than happy for both to exist and compete with each other and want to see LR produce something in keeping with its heritage.
Agree 100% with everything you say. People still talk about LR unreliability and maybe that’s out of date but I still wouldn’t trust them. I hope LR follow your advice!
The Thing is outdoor, farmers and 4X4 community say they want a rugged vehicle from LR. BUT the ones that sell and you see and make profit are the skinny tyre V8 and V8 look a-likes in black, with the silly accessories, oodles of tech inspired by the US custom market. so that what they make and know how to sell. The way I would point LR execs is Royal Enfield, maybe Leica and the even parts of the luxury watch market, RE in particular though, a run away success with a very refined engineering execution, but comprehensively stripped down to basics experience with the tech missing or discreetly disguised.
LR / RR forgot the design origins of each model which has muddled their designs since. Discovery was introduced as a monocoque body on frame to bring utilitarian refinement to the bolt-together Defender / LR line. The only distinction Discovery can bring to the market going forward is to lessen its luxury in favour of utility (to differentiate from RR) and to promote its SUV conveniences like a rear hatch / split tail gate and cavernous cargo space (to differentiate from Defender). I say all this as a happy LR4 owner / enthusiast.
Having spent some time in a land rover service department waiting room, buying a 40-60k would be an awful experience for the general public. The service departments can’t handle the work load and parts supply they have now. Nothing to say for the deprecation!
We own a 2016 disco sport HSE that we bought brand new Summer 2017. We are in Canada. We don’t drive it much now sitting at only 60k or around 37k miles. It developed an oil leak from the transmission side and it will cost me thousands to fix. Buy Japanese…
Should have driven it more. It’s unlikely to cost that much to replace an oil seal. It’s not rocket science and local mechanics could do it in a few hours I’d have thought, unless it is one of the rare occasions when it is a body-off job.
This is the outcome of sharing platforms across the entire line up. In order to build an appropriate Defender, it would take LR to develop a completely new platform.
Discovery was always as capable as Defender but more luxury/comfortable as Range Rover. Now the Defender is the most capable car from JLR and very comfortable with most comforts anyone needs. So discovery needs to have a redesign which apparently is happening. Velar is being refreshed and going electric. Maybe they should ditch the evoque and keep the disco sport and have fancy models and off road based models as suggested. New Range Rover sport looks awful from the front. Hope a facelift one year sorts that. Defender must be due a facelift soon too. Keep an eye on Jag too, with these high profits from LR that’ll enable more investment into Jaaaag. Smith and Sniff talk about it a bit on their podcast. Worth a listen.
Hi, I am from India and I am closely following the JLR owner TATA, TATA is planning to re-launch Jaguar. Unlike the last few years Jaguar was competing with Audi, BMW in car models. Now, Tata has decided to take a step ahead and make cars which can be compared with Bentley and other Luxury Brands. JLR will be coming with 5 cars in the next few years. They will be super luxury and innovative designs. 2-3 cara will be unveiling soon next year. Sadly they will be electric.
Very informative video chaps!!!! You nailed…… the “new defender “ should have been the Disco five!!! The original Land Rover was designed as a “work horse “ for farmers, builders, and the military!!! The “new defender “ ain’t a work horse!!!! Land Rover should have a working budget model….. not the Grenadian!! That’s just as expensive as the new defender!!! JLR policy is three different departments or vehicles formats!!! One Range Rover with its off shoots…. Sports Velar and Evquoe???? Discovery…. With the big unit and the smaller sports vehicle??? Then Defender…… with the 90, 110 & 130…. I’ve seen pictures of a defender ute??? But who is gonna throw bails of hay and bags of cement in a $80,000 Ute??? But the $64 billion dollar question is jaGuar??? Have you seen the crap 💩 that JLR have just released about the future of jaGuar????? It’s totally woke and BS!!! Regards Ian 👨🎤🇳🇿👍🍸🍸
This is no secret, the Land Rover strategy is clearly stated and focused on becoming THE luxury car brand across all their models. In each of the model ranges there is a clear strategy to upsell and drive profit from the high end bespoke models. They are not focused or care for anything less than being the ultimate luxury off-road brand.
I couldn’t agree more. The Disco and Sport look alike and they have place in the range. I would love to see LR come out with a retro model. They completely blew it on the Discovery. I have a 23 Disco Sport which is a really nice rig, goes most anywhere, but looks like a Hyundai. I want one that looks like a Grenadier. Even Toyota realized the retro look is in with the Land Cruiser. Come on LR, you can’t to better. Right now I’m looking at a Land Cruiser or Defender and it’s a tough decision.
I just tested a used Discovery Sport few weeks ago, it was a great CAR but sadly, in many ways I felt I was driving just an elevated hatchback, and constantly compared the Disco Sport to a smaller SUV, even though it really isn't. I kind of liked the Freelander 2 (LR2 in NA, right?) better, as it had far more utilitarian overall approach, and the driving position was far more landrovery. I wish LR did a baby Defender-esque, more rugged styled SUV into this segment too, but I fear the heavy pressure in the Europe for vehicle electrification is going to kill all the more adventurous ideas the poor car makers have possibly had.
Wishful thinking but I’d love to see JLR bin the discovery and tweet the styling of the new defender and call it the discovery 6. Then eat some humble pie and relaunch the defender in the old style to go after the ineos and g-wagon market. The g-wagon has independent suspension now, so they could still go that route if they really wanted. But I agree that there is too little to differentiate between the models these days.
Defender should have been the Disco 6. The Defender should have been maybe more like what Mercedes did with the G, maybe independent front suspension with a full frame and a solid rear axle, full time 4x4, three lockers on option, with a pickup variant. The biggest problem with the new Defender is they completely alienated their original market
The full-size Discovery is by far my favorite product in the LR/RR portfolio - but "if" I was to ever buy one I'd know it was woefully old and uncompetitive - a GLE, X5, Cayenne, etc are all much better cars in every way. And after a lifetime of loving Range Rovers, the latest crop just leave me a little cold - the Velar being my favorite of the bunch. The Defender is fine - but nothing I'd want to drive - too much of a "cartoon" car (like a Mini Cooper, Toyota FJ, VW Beetle, etc). LR used to have this segment to itself, and things are now much more competitive - at a time when their products themselves don't quite have the magic they once did. Still hope to see them succeed.
My thoughts exactly, Land Rover has gone from authentic 4x4 SUVs with a Lux touch... to a Luxury sport SUV brand with some 4x4 features. Look at the Range Rover and the Sport. They were rugged, high 4x4s with Lux touch, and now they look like Jaguar F-Pace SUVs with 4x4. Not rugged anymore, even adding the Velar was a waste of variants.
I was amongs the people who says that New Defender is in fact new Discovery. Look for example at interior that rooks like based on design of Discovery 1 early models 200tdi and 3.5V8. And position in the lineup for the rich peoples who likes outdoors.
I feel like the unforgivable sin is the lack of a 18 inch wheel option… I know they say for braking performance, but the stinking TRX with more weight and power could run smaller wheels. No excuse.
Too many of these things come with low profile tires which tells off roaders that they are not serious and not to be trusted with anything more rugged than a mall or school pick up. Oh yeah, their reliability history is pretty poor also. Stay near a city and a dealer or risk getting towed out of wherever you’ve broken down or busted your tires.
With little revisions they can improve the line up by adding more features to the Discovery models while retaining the luxury features and other over the top gizmos on the RRS, RRV and Defender. $40K Entry level should be : Discovery Sport with rugged looks ala Rav4 w/ leatherette interior 5 seats only. 250hp awd only $47K Sport SUV fashion coupe the Evoque 3 door: luxury looks with baseline leatherette interior and optional leather with panoramic roof with 4 seats but only has 3 doors.(like previous gen evoque) 300hp awd only $55K entry level luxury suv- Velar: 5 door/ leatherette interior base/standard pano roof/coil suspension optional air suspension and genuine leather interior. awd only base engine 250hp $60K next up 300$66K and SVR 550hp$80K $55K rugged basic iconic suv Defender 90 3 door. Standard ingenium 4 250hp. rugged cloth interior with 4x4 and optional diff locks. coil suspension, optional sun roof and leather int as add-ons. optionable ala carte such as powertrain choice can be added for additional $7000 if opt of ingenium 6 with 350hp (detuned to differentiate from 110) $67K large SUV- Discovery full size. standard 7 seats with pano roof. standard ingenium 6 cyl 400hp/ leatherette optional genuine leather/ AWD std with optional diff locks/ standard air suspension/ Slightly rugged adventurous looks positioned towards mostly ubran dwellers that tows ski, trailers and other toys on weekends at the alps or Tenerife $72K Defender 110 entry 5 seats only 5 doors with ingenium 6 400hp 4x4 standard with diff locks. Standard rugged waterproof interior with optional panoramic roof and genuine leather leather. Air suspension standard. other off road capability enhancements a la carte. +$9000 on 130 body style(7 seats) +$8500 on safari 5 seats truck body. $85K Range Rover sport ingenium 6 480hp genuine leather. 5 seats. full pano roof standard genuine leather optional windsor leather full air suspension 4x4 capability V8 at 600hp at $105K and SVR beyond that $110K Range Rover Vogue Standard 700hp V8 base. Standard windsor leather full air suspension standard pano roof standard diff locks low range etc and capability. They can put whatever they want in this With this lineup I think LR could make a killing.
4:57 but can it still be sold in a land Rover dealership? The brand has moved quite far up market and I don't know if it really can have more "mainstream options" in its dealership.
Fair point in the comments for Discovery and the money it costs. Its basicly direct rival of Subaru, but Subaru is x2 times cheaper so if LR want to make smtn with Discovery sport, they need to get rid of most of the usless features and put it in the price tag of Subaru Outback.
This is where we are supposed to suggest the car we want, right? Well, I’m going to alter my dream car to what they need, which is a volume world car. They should do a new off-roader/ agricultural platform. Version 1 - a lightweight jeep/jimny competitor with convertible option and decent torque for weekend beach and soft road users as well as lighter ag uses. It only has to be fast enough to get out of its own way. Version 2 - a heavy axle version with a diesel hybrid and enough torque to tow around the farm and climb up and over a Jeep Rubicon, RAWR! Badge engineering a Mahindra version would add extra value to the equation. Jeep is sleeping, Lads. It’s a perfect time to pass them by and set your sites on Toyota.
The profit margins aren't there in the cheaper models, and they are cannibalising some of their own sales with the close cost and capability of Disco and Defender. Disco should be positioned where the defender is, and defender should be a more rugged and durable vehicle with less luxury and improved durability.
Argument: LR is doing well in the luxury over ~US$100k segment. History: JLR until recently had tried to compete with the German brands in the entry 'luxury' / premium market, ~US$40-50k, and almost went under, and Jaguar current is in the process of discontinuing all of their models with the only future replacement being the cancelled XJ electric project. Solution: Try competing in the ~US$40-50k so that there is not a Bronco / Wrangler alternative... Also line all four of the Range Rover models up and look at the size difference; Sure the Velar could be removed in favour of the Sport as they're both larger SUV's, but the Evoque is a small CUV for a specific customer.
i love the discovery 5 td6. it is a great all around vehicle that does so many things well. its off road capability, when equipped with the locking rear differential, is amazing. i like the rounded look- it doesn’t need to scream i am an off-road monster- but it is. the worst aspect of disco 5 ownership are the dealers. service and parts pricing is absurd. Paying outrageous prices for parts and service is bad but when outright incompetence is combined with a we could care less about customers attitude it is down right insulting and disrespectful. top dollar for 3rd rate service is unacceptable.
I'm watching this in a 2024 Discovery loner. Well my 2018 is in the shop😂 Discovery needs a redesign! It's virtually the same. Very comfortable to drive. Fits my four kids much better than the defender 110 - perhaps they emphasize the family hauler aspect
One thing that doesn't get mentioned enough is that the Discovery is much, much more cavernous inside than the Defender 110. The 130 is about the same size inside as the Disco but it just doesn't look as good as the 110 (or the Disco, honestly).
I am watching reels of Disco II absolutely devouring terrain while listening to this conversation. It is hard to accept that anything Tata manufactures is a Land Rover
The Defender is the only vehicle in their lineup that looks like it could go offroad. The others are just too pretty to be be considered off roaders. Mostly for sidewalk jumping.
Hi I’m a Brit. Jaguar Land Rover are just luxury cars now owned by Tata just like the Mini is BMW and I think I’m right in saying VW own the Scout name. I could go on their just Names. Just buy an old truck and spend your money getting how you want,like your doing better engine,beef up the drivetrain and so on.
I am touching wood as I am typing this. My LR4 that I bought in January, following engine and suspension replacement (and lots of mods) has 25,000 trouble free miles on it. Many 1,000 plus road trips and I've done up to an On X Offroad 6 without the winch. I would love Land Rover to come out with an LR6 that does look like an "egg" well said. Tommy, you have the number, call them up and make that happen please.
Come on guys, wasn’t this obvious. I was calling the new defender the best discovery ever since it first leaked. LR made a huge blunder calling it a defender. Now they can’t go back.
Several points in this I agree, the Defenders should absolutely be the discovery! Seriously the the evoke is a joke, as well as the velor. Both should be dissapered forever. As a long time disco owner, having a one series and a LR3 as a daily driver absolutely love the lr3 and the discos should go back to the style and utility of the (current defender) As far as the rovers go, since I just acquired a 2010 sport supercharge. And love its design. Again there should only be the two. So in my world the top of line Range Rover, then a sport model. The new disco and then a sport model (which should be more like the current defender) And the classic no frills, get down the beaten trail Defenders.. Are you listening LR CORP?! 😊
The US market is very different from the European one. Opportunities to off road in the UK and EU are fairly limited and with $10 gallon a reality, gasoline cars are irrelevant to all but the very wealthy, hence the norm for diesels at 2l and above. Disco Sport and Evoque are the big sellers here. But with no low range and low clearance they are not used much off road although better than the competition. I can see JLR investing in making the D Sport tougher for just the US market, particularly with only gasoline engines which lack the torque for off road performance. Despite their age the old Defender is very common in Europe, but JLR has no interest in this market.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
As a Brit, let me tell you, your skewed American view is bang on the money! Between 1996 and 2015 I bought a new Defender every 4 years for work/ private use:
300TDI 90 pick up (replaced second hand 200TDI that got stolen)
Td5 90 pick up
2.4 Tdci XS hard top
2.4 110 utility
2.2 110 XS Utility
The last one purchased in 2015 was £33,000 including Vat ( top of the range model). In 2019 there was no new Defender so couldn’t buy one! In 2020 there was new Defender (Discovery 6) starting price £50k ! Couldn’t afford one and didn’t want one!
30 years ago Land Rover only made 3 vehicles
Defender- Utility (me)
Discovery- well off family
Range Rover- Luxury
Now they make seven vehicles and there is less choice as they are all different flavours of the same thing - luxury SUV! There is so much crossover they mainly compete with each other as you pointed out .
Sadly Land Rover has turned its back on customers like me by moving everything further up market.
Watched you Defender vs Wrangler in deep snow vid . As a lifelong Defender fan I’d have to take the Jeep over the new Defender every time!😂 ( I imagine it would feel refined compared to my 2015 truck)!
Me too. I'm still running my 2013 110 for just this reason.
I had a 200TDi defender stolen as well in the UK, what a terrible day.
Almost every manufacturer is moving upmarket. They make more money per vehicle sold, so why bother making cheap vehicles. Everyone just takes out loans they can't afford anyway
the New defender is basically the LR6, and the Ineos is the Defender.
The Ineos is absolutely awesome
True. I have a new defender here in aus and absolutely love it. I also love the grenadier, but in RHD there is a massive lump in the driver's footwell that is a deal breaker for me unfortunately.
they went to luxury
Exactly my thoughts as well.
@@RootBeerGMT Its simply fantastic. Off road it is an absolute animal.
Ive been to the JLR museum in the UK and they had so many cool cars throughout the decades and now? Nothing really floats my boat
You’re probably getting old and nostalgic for a perceived golden age which is probably when everyone was in their twenties and thirties. Nothing after that age, for a majority of people, is ever as great again.
@@hedydd2naaah the cars now look all the same, inventing stuff just stopped unless it’s about tech and screens
@@kacperzabczyk4559 Even the tech and screens are now very very similar. There is now very little to distinguish one model and brand from another and they are all well equipped luxury vehicles. Brand loyalty has become a thing of the past. Jaguar have totally given up on their existing brand and heritage so one might as well buy a BYD or other new or unknown brand.
The issue with the Discovery and Disco Sport is the looks. They softened the lines so much, a beetle looks more aggressive.
I agree
Looks like a cheap Nissan.
I agree. The Defender is what the Discovery 3 and 4 used to be in their day. The Defender has eaten the Discovery’s sales as a result. I like the look of the Disco but it’s gone more SUV than 4wd. Push Defender to more rugged and Discovery to where Defender is sitting. Unfortunately I can’t see Defender ever returning to a Grenadier style vehicle though. The small LR’s are squarely aimed at mall crawlers.
100% They have flipped the positing of the Defender Vs Discovery.
But who is buying these vs Jeep/ Toyota especially considering the costs and horrid reliability.
We need a new expression for "mall crawler." Malls are not a thing anymore. 😂
I definitely really like the style of the disco, I just couldn't dream of affording one, especially used with the maintenance issues
@@Villani_AVthink again, they have depreciated a lot from the lack of sales in the us. I got an 18 diesel in the us for 23k. As for Matinence issues they set a friggin 16k mile oil change on this unit. No way in hell I’m waiting that long to change oil on anything. I do it at 6k otherwise it’s small things and shitty dealer service departments that cause problems. When you have to tell a dealership how their own car works then your know your screwed and yes that has happened to me already. Saved 2,500 because they wanted to replace something that only needed a software update they didn’t know how to do. Shameful honestly.
Defender = Discovery
Ineos = Defender
Jimny = LR90
Pricing in my opinion is not the primary issue. In my humble opinion, the primary issues are depreciation and reliability
idk....depreciation is certainly a big hit but that's also true of every luxury marque. Does the average buyer of a $1-200K Range Rover really think about depreciation? As for reliability I know a lot of the general public thinks of the brand as terrible in that regard but they aren't as bad as they make out. Heck, they general public also thinks Toyota is the pinnacle of reliability and their recent products have been anything but. Both are living on a reputation built decades ago in that regard.
@@edwardnelson3413 have you ever actually owned one?
depreciation is an effect of a very bad reliability .....
At this point, I think they deliberatly make it unreliable, so that it feels inherently British. Because seeing how fast Kia turned around from the early 2000's to the mid 2010's, and where they are now, there's absolutely no excuses for Land Rover/Ranger Rover, especially at the prices they're selling them!
Low reliability and quality are the issues. LR are not good overland vehicles.
Just bought a Defender in July. It was the perfect vehicle for my wife up here in Maine. Comfortable, plenty of performance for her to throw around corners (she drives like Ricky Bobby) and tons of capability in the snow and most importantly - it looks awesome. I will say that I had an experience just yesterday at the JLR dealer. While I was waiting on my service advisor to help a lady with her Range Rover, she made quite a comment about how "unfortunate it is that she had to share the service department with these trashy Defenders". LR can't go down market I don't think without alienating some of their more .... elite .... customers. It would be the Wagoneer issue in reverse.
As a fellow Mainer, I went Bronco Sport Badlands. 85-90% of a common LR usage without all the cost and I don't have to worry as much about scratches or body damage. hehe. If I spent mint on a LR, I would have to wax it every day out of love. The BadSport I'll just Car Camp out of and won't worry about logging road dust or mud splashes. ;)
Wow....all I can say is "what a bitch". She clearly has no knowledge of the brand at all
Good point about staying high end.
Well she is sitting the same dealership. Obviously can't afford a rolls royce but thinks she is above others.
I just paid $94k for my Defender...How are we the unwashed masses? She sounds dreadful and honestly, the only kind of person to say something like that is probably broke with payments that are keeping her from even fully furnishing her home with tacky, new garbage.
I live in Colorado and own a Land Rover Discovery 5 TD6 HSE Lux with the three rows of seats, full off-road package, including center and rear locking differentials, and the towing and cold-weather packages. At the time when I purchased this vehicle in 2017, it was unique! It had the room of a full-sized Range Rover at a much lower price tag and a wonderful blend of capabilities that made it a truly versatile SUV both for a family driving long distances across the Western United States and Canada, and providing the capabilities needed for my off-road explorations. I purchased 20 inch aftermarket off-road wheels and Falken AT3X all-terrain tires instead of the factory 21 inch wheels and on-road biased tires.
This vehicle has lived up to its billing as a versatile vehicle. The seats are larger, and the interior hip and leg room are more comfortable than the current Defender, and the rear cargo area has larger capacity than the Defender 110. In my opinion, The current Defender models are more about styling than about capability. Yes, the shorter front and rear overhangs make for better approach and departure angles than on the Landrover Discovery 5. However, the air suspensions don’t differ between the two models, and the same All terrain 2 four-wheel-drive systems with locking center and rear differentials are present in both models.
Having driven both the new Defenders and the Discovery 5, the Discovery is more comfortable for long distance driving and touring, and it has a smaller turning radius than the Defender. I agree that the current Defender feels more like the successor to the Discovery 4 than does the current Discovery 5.
Looking at the price tags for new vehicles, I am extremely hesitant to part with my Discovery 5 especially when the newer vehicles have much lower fuel economy and really don’t offer much except different styling and more up-to-date electronics. In my opinion, the new Defender Octa is a wonderful vehicle, but it is aimed clearly at the Range Rover buyer who wants a more rugged looking vehicle.
You are aware that the early D5 fitted with the Ford-made diesel V6 engine has a very high chance of eventually breaking its crankshaft? There are apparently already examples of the same basic engine breaking cranks in the current model Ford Ranger where it is a popular option outside America. Apart from that small but significant risk, the D5 is indeed the current entry level Range Rover and a far better one than any previous to the current and last full-fat Range Rover models. It’s luxurious and rugged, capable spacious and refined.
@@hedydd2 I’ve have a 2018 Td6 and it’s been totally reliable. I did halve the dumb 16k oil changes which I think is the leading cause of the Ford engine problems. 40mpg on bio-diesel.
@ Long may your luck continue
The full size discovery is just much more usable than a Velar. I think it out styles it as well and sets up much better as a off roader. I think anyone considering a Velar or a Defender should also consider the Discovery. It's definitely underappreciate. I prefer it over the defender and would not consider a Velar over it.
The freelander used to be the cheap entry into LR. More road based than the defender and less upmarket than the discovery. I had a facelifted freelander which was great, had decent 4x4 capabilities, never got me stuck anywhere and was a good compromise between the suv shaped vehicles that have no off road ability and something that does.
Yep,‘I had a facelift Freelander 1 and it was a great car, sill a bit “chunky” and offroad but also a good family car.
I think you both totally nailed it here. I hope the Landrover design team see this excellent presentation and take on board what you have highlighted. There is far too little differentiation between Range Rover and Landrover now. I agree totally that the Discovery 5 needs a complete re-design. As for discovery sport and evoque, I think the 2.0 Litre Ingenium diesel engine has been a disaster of an engine in terms of reliability/total failure.
Hi from England UK. I was in a land rover dealership yesterday and my opinion is the defender is just awesome, i love the rugged design of the interior yet it still has premium parts to it, just with a rubber floor and harder materials in heavy wear areas. The dash is so nice and clean and practical, better than everything BMW etc are doing.
If they could make a small defender, not 110 to 90 smaller but more like a defender sport then this be much better than the discovery sport which is fairly popular in my affluent area 30 miles west of London but it is a family car, tip run car - no need to have leather carpet and chrome everywhere.
i agree. having a $150k vehicle for off roading is such a small niche and it won't sell well. but you offer a budget and rugged version of the defender and it will then compete with the bronco and jeep again and steal some of their sales.
Exactly, no one but the very rich are willing to go out and thrash and scratch up a $150k vehicle. Most people doing off-roading type activities know their vehicle is going to get some scratches and dents. That’s a much easier pill to swallow when the repair costs $500 vs several thousands of dollars.
I'd get a G-Wagon first at those price points.
I agree about the need for a smaller "defender sport" to fill the role of the original Defender/Series Rovers. Simple, robust, and easy to modify for the end-user's needs. But there seems to always be a market for halo big hp flasy rigs like the Octa. Perfect examples being the TRX and Raptor R. Sure some people will actually take them off-road but most are just buying for image and HP which if we are honest is not that important for serious off-roading. It's fun for dune bashing or desert running, but 250 hp wheels just as well as 500 on the Rubicon. Or even 95 if you're a yota 22RE guy. Wanna build a flashy "superSUV"? Go ahead and knock yourself out. But then build a smaller one you can actually sell more than 3 of.
The Discovery line isn’t that desirable. For the money most folks would upgrade to Range Rover and that shows in the sales numbers. A mini Defender would be a real winner
Yep, they need a Defender sport given what the RR line has. Disco is being cannibalized by the other models
@@chrisad1177or call it defender 70
Very nice video! Great questions and just as developed and thoughtful answers. I was one of the old school Land-Rover (with hyphen) lovers. Got out of the brand when it appeared B.L. would never return to the NADA market. Keep up the great work, TFL! I'd not rule out there may come a day when I'll buy a Land Rover Defender for use here on Molokai. I'll love these products. This having been said, I'm still greatly impressed with the reliability of my 2012 Jeep JK Unlimited Rubicon I've had since new, and the Jeep's ability to go places no Series IIA or III Land Rover known to me could or would go. Andy McKane, 20 November 2024, Maunaloa, Molokai, Hawaii.
Owned a 2023 Defender 90 for 14 months now and love it, so glad I moved away from Jeeps. The Disco is an odd ball right now for them, I loved the LR4 style but the current one went to much Range Rover in style I think.
I’ll keep my diesel D5. It’s got it all and I’ve had an LR3 and an L322. The D5 hits all the buttons.
They need to figure out how to make a RELIABLE vehicle, first and foremost. Their top-of-the-line vehicles outselling their entry level is understandable; people buying into the brand at the top are most likely not concerned with future maintenance costs due to their account balances or their desire to trade in before the warranty lapses.
People buying vehicles in the Discovery Sport price range have a plethora of comparable options with longevity and most likely have to take long term costs into account based on their tax bracket; I know I do. Land Rover does not seem to understand how to make a vehicle worth buying apart from appealing aesthetics.
Having owned a Defender now for a few months and being involved in the forums and Defender community, I can say that with the exception of a few things like the daytime running lights going out, fragile windshields getting chipped easily, issues with parking sensors, and issues with the D200 diesel over in Europe - it seems that the new Defender is actually quite reliable.
@nothingtoseaheardammit I've had mine for two years and no issues. Time will tell of course.
@@nothingtoseaheardammita few months??? A few months.... hahahahahahaha just wait
I am a huge fan of 2010-2016+/-Land Rovers. I’ve owned 4 Range Rovers and Range Rover Sports from this era and currently still have two. The LR4 was always one of my absolute favorite vehicles ever, by any manufacturer. I was so excited for the new model (Discovery 5) but was let down by the styling when it was finally shown. The rear 1/3 is very odd looking proportionally around the rear wheel wells, too rounded at the lift-gate and they nearly eliminated the iconic stepped roof completely. The Discovery needs to go back to more like an LR4 in terms of styling, but perhaps with more luxury than the Defender in order to differentiate it better. Keep locking rear differential as an option, better, make it standard again as it was on 2010-2013 models.
I still would choose the current Discovery over the Defender simply because I value exclusivity and Defenders are everywhere, but please, bring back more rugged styling for the Discovery! The LR4/Discovery name has a rich history of unique rugged styling and capability that also bodes well as a family hauler. The vehicle needs to look the part as they once have. I’m itching for a new Discovery with loads of leather, space for my kids but also boxy rugged styling.
The Lexus GX hit the styling and capability points just right, but totally missed on the cheap, dark plastic filled interior. Land Rover has the leather lined interior down just right but not the exterior styling.
Discovery is just ugly. Doesn't look any different than the SUV by all the other manufacturers.
Thats just not true
Ugly? Idk about that. Just very similar to Range Rover
Designed by aerodynamics. But imo it still looks good.
100% agree with your take on the brand, totally agree with the suggested direction for the Disco Sport.
The old reliability trope isn't based in reality. Anybody complaining about that hasn't owned a well taken care of LR. Ask any LR owner, they are very loyal to the brand year over year and its not for no reason at all. I bought my Defender V8 and it's hands down the best vehicle I've ever owned. If Defender and RR is out of your budget, they have the Disco for you but if you're looking to offroad obviously you're looking for something else. Defender is the most offroad capable luxury vehicle on the road today
Yeah, all due respect, you’re full of crap. A friend’s LR4 blew an engine at 55,000 miles. Thank God he got a certified one.
@christopherkozal7987 it's always "a friend", or "some guy I know". Did your LR blow up?
@ no, I don’t buy Rovers. Horrible quality
@@christopherkozal7987 yea, of course
@@christopherkozal7987haha
I live in the uk and when you are talking about units sold in the US, the reason the discovery sport doesn't do well is because Americans love large suv's and the discovery sport is considered small to you guys, that's my perception anyway. In the uk we have a lot of discovery sports around.
Poor engines is the problem in the new models - particularly the 2.0
Living in NJ, I see a lot of Land Rovers and Range Rovers. Two things I’ll say, JLR hit a home run with the Defender. They are everywhere, and with good reason, they are great looking vehicles. Second, I was thisclose to buying used LR4, but I have a reliable vehicle that I’m almost done paying off. That said, that body style is epic. Squared off, 3 rows, with a split tailgate and stadium seating. Why they went away from that for the new disco 5 is a mystery. Bring back the box!
I own an older discovery. I feel like the defender is now what the discovery used to be. They turned the discovery into something entirely different. If I were shopping for something today, it would be a defender.
most of us also
The problem is that they make profits on the up-market products. 50 years ago they were farmer trucks. The original Range Rover was an accidental hit, and the first Discovery was a response to the Japanese that was a huge hit in the UK. Then came the Freelander, again a popular slightly up-market SUV. But that was when they had Rover, later Ford to provide components to amortise costs. Since Tata acquired them, they have to source all their own main components, and as their market presence at the top end has grown (more full sized Range Rovers built in 2023 than Mercedes S class) that's where they are concentrating 'cos that's where the profit is.
With the benefit of hindsight, the Defender has well and truly eaten the Discovery 5's lunch. But the Discovery Sport still sells reasonably well here in the UK as a up-market family hauler - think of it as a rival to the Volvo XC60 or BMW X3 with better off-road credentials. And the styling is a matter of taste - I think that the Evoque and Disco Sport look good, it's just that the proportions of the Disco 5 are wrong - and from the sales figures this side of the Atlantic, lots of buyers agree. These are more aerodynamic than slab sided models, which benefits fuel economy - an important factor here
There's insufficient sales to justify either an Ineos rival or a pick-up. Look at Ineos's disappointing sales, and the fact that a number of manufacturers have abandoned the European pick-up market (including Nissan and Mitsubishi, once the market leaders). There's no way that they could sell enough Defender pick-ups to repay development costs. Who is going to spend £50k + on one when they can still get an Isuzu or Ranger for £25-30K? The commercial Discoveries and Defenders, by the way, are simply made with no back seats and still have rear glazing, so they qualify as commercials for UK tax purposes, and are very much a specialist product. They still vastly outsell Ineos's commercial offerings - the "half van" Grenadier and Quartermaster.
It's a shame they are moving up-market, but that's business. BTW - I'm a long term LR owner - Disco 1, Freelanders 1 & 2 and Disco Sport, and my current manual 4x4 averages 42MPG +. Shame now that I am retired it'll probably be my last LR.
They don’t make their own transmissions, axles, steering, V8 gas engines or many components that make up the rest of the vehicles. Back until the 1990’s they made everything in house including all engines [apart from VM diesels for Range Rover] manual transmissions, transfer boxes and both axles on all but the 110 Defenders which used Dana at the rear [known as the Salisbury axle]
As JLR slices the premium SUV market thinner and thinner, it forgets the kerf of the blade.
Totally agree with everything you guys discussed here.
I feel exactly the same.
Glad to hear sales are robust for the new Defenders and here’s hoping quality control continues to trend upward.
Outside of enthusiasts and the wealthy, nobody cares about this brand at all. Off road Enthusiasts will stop caring once the old models dry up on the used market. Everyone thinks they're unreliable and expensive to repair. The Defender is now a stretched out Honda Element with Unibody construction. Considering their reputation in the US, I think the company is doing about as well as it can here. They made the Defender more approachable to normal people and celebrities keep the flagship RR as a real status symbol. There's really not any room for anything else underneath because shoppers actually start to care about what they're buying beyond the nameplate/luxury once that price drops down enough. Always a way better option out there under 80k than whatever LR/RR can build, even the Defender. They would need to build factories over here to get prices down and that's a risky proposition that will never happen. I can definitely see a future where they pull out completely except for the flagship and maybe the Defender. This scenario is far more likely than any resurgence brought about by new lower tier models. It's a luxury brand for fancy people on the coasts and big cities and it's very unlikely anything will change that.
Uhhh... what do you drive, let me guess, a Jeep.
I have both a Defender 110 and Discovery 5. My Defender is more capable than any offroad vehicle in snow and mud. I lifted the Discovery installed offroad tires and drove it in the mountains in North Carolina on a camping trip with my buddies. No issues! What are you talking about😂?
The Discovery Sport was initially the Freelander 3, (LR2 in the US). Its not a full-time 4x4, uses a haldex system to engage the 2nd axel when needed. So mostly 2wd. Better for on road economy etc Of course it has terrain reponse, so very capable! Would love to see a LR2 comparison on the channel! They are gaining in popularity here in the UK now they are 10 years old, they are getting some mods for offroading.
Hey guys, great video-cast. I have a Defender 3 ( LR3 with you in US ) and I love it, perfect farm vehicle. I also have a new Defender D300 and that is excellent, no reliability issues ( however, it has had a new sun roof and a new windscreen in 2 years ). Perfect car pairings and yes the new Defender is the best Discovery that Land Rover never built ( quote from Richard Hammond, Grand Tour ).
The Defender is the best Discovery that Land Rover has ever built…
The real problem is that companies think people want 50k-100k vehicles for off roading but no! 70% of the market want a 20-30k vehicle that they can pay off faster and then speck it themselves as and when they want it. I mean off roading is all about having the freedom. The root cause is, from a business perspective 70% of profits come from the luxury sector, kind of like hyper cars segment. More luxury cars means less bulk manufacturing and less cost involved with much higher margins of profit. With rising costs of production, it’s kind of no brainer that companies are following this unfortunate trend.
most ,we, I want a utility , what sports utility vehicle's middle name is or was , the new LC is. good step if is was in the ineos . defender 130 price range ,Ii want a more utilitarian LC 300
Yeah but then they make less money for their shareholders, so they don't care what we want until they stop making money
@ Exactly. From a business perspective and if we look at it through an owner perspective then it kind of makes sense but then it also doesn’t make sense that they can’t even offer a bare bone vehicle which also reduces expenses, since installing too much tech is what costs more production money.
@@StormWalker101 most new cars etc have safety tech we need and will use , we all don't want or need power fold heated cooled touch screen for each passenger , hands free driving , cost and added wt ,
Great video guys. I love my 90 V8 and love the rims on new Octa 20". So much so I put a set on my 90.
I think $150K+ for the Octa is a bit too steep for a Defender IMO.
It will be interesting to see how many of those get built and sold each year.
The new Lexus Gx seems to be where the Discovery should be
Disco 5 doesn’t drive like a Landrover, you sit inside it.
Reliability- let’s see how they go with a few more miles on em…. Disco 5’s start leaking badly at 100K
I always liked seeing the first couple generations of discoveries driving around when I was a kid. They still look good today. Land Rover would sell tons of them if they brought back the squared off styling and raised stadium seating roof line with a roof rack. Maybe even a smaller Xterra sized entry level disco too.
In regards to reliability, a big part of the frustration is with the Dealers and their OEM parts cannon approach.
Bronco raptor 392 wrangler are both infinitely better options for the money that can actually off road and have amazing resale value! Apples to apples in my opinion because they are all expensive and stand out. Its the same kind of rigs these folks are out to get.
I personally really love my 2021 Disco5.... but there is no denying the 2016 LR4 is more attractive to look at. I would take the interior of the current Disco and the Exterior of the LR4 any day over anything Land Rover is selling today
Jaguar is done in the USA if they go 100% EV....at least for the next 4 years.
It would be nice to be able to build your new Land Rover the way you want it. A V8 in a base model 110 with cargo windows would be tempting
If the defender was more like the ineos, it would be a g wagon competition in price
I’d love to see LR revive the “Series” name as a model and produce something more rugged/basic like the Grenadier which I own. I’m more than happy for both to exist and compete with each other and want to see LR produce something in keeping with its heritage.
We need a TFL t-shirt that says “100%” 😂
Agree 100% with everything you say. People still talk about LR unreliability and maybe that’s out of date but I still wouldn’t trust them. I hope LR follow your advice!
Great job guys
The Discovery 5 I like. It's like a minivan but with a few extra capabilities.
The defender is just a toy for rich people.
The Thing is outdoor, farmers and 4X4 community say they want a rugged vehicle from LR. BUT the ones that sell and you see and make profit are the skinny tyre V8 and V8 look a-likes in black, with the silly accessories, oodles of tech inspired by the US custom market. so that what they make and know how to sell.
The way I would point LR execs is Royal Enfield, maybe Leica and the even parts of the luxury watch market, RE in particular though, a run away success with a very refined engineering execution, but comprehensively stripped down to basics experience with the tech missing or discreetly disguised.
LR / RR forgot the design origins of each model which has muddled their designs since. Discovery was introduced as a monocoque body on frame to bring utilitarian refinement to the bolt-together Defender / LR line. The only distinction Discovery can bring to the market going forward is to lessen its luxury in favour of utility (to differentiate from RR) and to promote its SUV conveniences like a rear hatch / split tail gate and cavernous cargo space (to differentiate from Defender). I say all this as a happy LR4 owner / enthusiast.
Having spent some time in a land rover service department waiting room, buying a 40-60k would be an awful experience for the general public. The service departments can’t handle the work load and parts supply they have now. Nothing to say for the deprecation!
We love our Discovery 5 Supercharged.
We own a 2016 disco sport HSE that we bought brand new Summer 2017. We are in Canada. We don’t drive it much now sitting at only 60k or around 37k miles. It developed an oil leak from the transmission side and it will cost me thousands to fix. Buy Japanese…
Should have driven it more. It’s unlikely to cost that much to replace an oil seal. It’s not rocket science and local mechanics could do it in a few hours I’d have thought, unless it is one of the rare occasions when it is a body-off job.
@ my appointment is next week hope you r right
Your views are spot on, to much inter model competition for the same market segment and nothing really kickass off-road.
Love the Discovery 5!
The P400 is not reliable. Major issues are appearing and there is no fix. Love my LR3 & LR4 - you guys played a big part in that, thx!!
I love my Discovery Sport. It is possibly the most usable vehicle on a day to day basis on the market.
This is the outcome of sharing platforms across the entire line up. In order to build an appropriate Defender, it would take LR to develop a completely new platform.
Discovery was always as capable as Defender but more luxury/comfortable as Range Rover. Now the Defender is the most capable car from JLR and very comfortable with most comforts anyone needs. So discovery needs to have a redesign which apparently is happening.
Velar is being refreshed and going electric. Maybe they should ditch the evoque and keep the disco sport and have fancy models and off road based models as suggested.
New Range Rover sport looks awful from the front. Hope a facelift one year sorts that. Defender must be due a facelift soon too.
Keep an eye on Jag too, with these high profits from LR that’ll enable more investment into Jaaaag.
Smith and Sniff talk about it a bit on their podcast. Worth a listen.
Hi, I am from India and I am closely following the JLR owner TATA, TATA is planning to re-launch Jaguar.
Unlike the last few years Jaguar was competing with Audi, BMW in car models.
Now, Tata has decided to take a step ahead and make cars which can be compared with Bentley and other Luxury Brands.
JLR will be coming with 5 cars in the next few years. They will be super luxury and innovative designs.
2-3 cara will be unveiling soon next year.
Sadly they will be electric.
Very informative video chaps!!!!
You nailed…… the “new defender “ should have been the Disco five!!!
The original Land Rover was designed as a “work horse “ for farmers, builders, and the military!!!
The “new defender “ ain’t a work horse!!!!
Land Rover should have a working budget model….. not the Grenadian!!
That’s just as expensive as the new defender!!!
JLR policy is three different departments or vehicles formats!!!
One Range Rover with its off shoots….
Sports Velar and Evquoe????
Discovery…. With the big unit and the smaller sports vehicle???
Then Defender…… with the 90, 110 & 130…. I’ve seen pictures of a defender ute???
But who is gonna throw bails of hay and bags of cement in a $80,000 Ute???
But the $64 billion dollar question is jaGuar???
Have you seen the crap 💩 that JLR have just released about the future of
jaGuar????? It’s totally woke and BS!!!
Regards Ian 👨🎤🇳🇿👍🍸🍸
This is no secret, the Land Rover strategy is clearly stated and focused on becoming THE luxury car brand across all their models. In each of the model ranges there is a clear strategy to upsell and drive profit from the high end bespoke models. They are not focused or care for anything less than being the ultimate luxury off-road brand.
I couldn’t agree more. The Disco and Sport look alike and they have place in the range. I would love to see LR come out with a retro model. They completely blew it on the Discovery. I have a 23 Disco Sport which is a really nice rig, goes most anywhere, but looks like a Hyundai. I want one that looks like a Grenadier. Even Toyota realized the retro look is in with the Land Cruiser. Come on LR, you can’t to better. Right now I’m looking at a Land Cruiser or Defender and it’s a tough decision.
I just tested a used Discovery Sport few weeks ago, it was a great CAR but sadly, in many ways I felt I was driving just an elevated hatchback, and constantly compared the Disco Sport to a smaller SUV, even though it really isn't. I kind of liked the Freelander 2 (LR2 in NA, right?) better, as it had far more utilitarian overall approach, and the driving position was far more landrovery. I wish LR did a baby Defender-esque, more rugged styled SUV into this segment too, but I fear the heavy pressure in the Europe for vehicle electrification is going to kill all the more adventurous ideas the poor car makers have possibly had.
Wishful thinking but I’d love to see JLR bin the discovery and tweet the styling of the new defender and call it the discovery 6.
Then eat some humble pie and relaunch the defender in the old style to go after the ineos and g-wagon market. The g-wagon has independent suspension now, so they could still go that route if they really wanted. But I agree that there is too little to differentiate between the models these days.
When TFL had their first Defender, were there any recalls on it?
Defender should have been the Disco 6. The Defender should have been maybe more like what Mercedes did with the G, maybe independent front suspension with a full frame and a solid rear axle, full time 4x4, three lockers on option, with a pickup variant. The biggest problem with the new Defender is they completely alienated their original market
The full-size Discovery is by far my favorite product in the LR/RR portfolio - but "if" I was to ever buy one I'd know it was woefully old and uncompetitive - a GLE, X5, Cayenne, etc are all much better cars in every way. And after a lifetime of loving Range Rovers, the latest crop just leave me a little cold - the Velar being my favorite of the bunch. The Defender is fine - but nothing I'd want to drive - too much of a "cartoon" car (like a Mini Cooper, Toyota FJ, VW Beetle, etc). LR used to have this segment to itself, and things are now much more competitive - at a time when their products themselves don't quite have the magic they once did. Still hope to see them succeed.
My thoughts exactly, Land Rover has gone from authentic 4x4 SUVs with a Lux touch... to a Luxury sport SUV brand with some 4x4 features. Look at the Range Rover and the Sport. They were rugged, high 4x4s with Lux touch, and now they look like Jaguar F-Pace SUVs with 4x4. Not rugged anymore, even adding the Velar was a waste of variants.
I totally agree. Redo models that aren’t selling well, like Discovery.
How does the Ineos Grenader sell in the US, in the UK sales are really low and dropping, you rarely see one, but the new Defender is everywhere.
They have halted production due to a supplier going belly up/
I was amongs the people who says that New Defender is in fact new Discovery. Look for example at interior that rooks like based on design of Discovery 1 early models 200tdi and 3.5V8.
And position in the lineup for the rich peoples who likes outdoors.
I feel like the unforgivable sin is the lack of a 18 inch wheel option… I know they say for braking performance, but the stinking TRX with more weight and power could run smaller wheels. No excuse.
Too many of these things come with low profile tires which tells off roaders that they are not serious and not to be trusted with anything more rugged than a mall or school pick up. Oh yeah, their reliability history is pretty poor also. Stay near a city and a dealer or risk getting towed out of wherever you’ve broken down or busted your tires.
With little revisions they can improve the line up by adding more features to the Discovery models while retaining the luxury features and other over the top gizmos on the RRS, RRV and Defender.
$40K Entry level should be : Discovery Sport with rugged looks ala Rav4 w/ leatherette interior 5 seats only. 250hp awd only
$47K Sport SUV fashion coupe the Evoque 3 door: luxury looks with baseline leatherette interior and optional leather with panoramic roof with 4 seats but only has 3 doors.(like previous gen evoque) 300hp awd only
$55K entry level luxury suv- Velar: 5 door/ leatherette interior base/standard pano roof/coil suspension optional air suspension and genuine leather interior. awd only base engine 250hp $60K next up 300$66K and SVR 550hp$80K
$55K rugged basic iconic suv Defender 90 3 door. Standard ingenium 4 250hp. rugged cloth interior with 4x4 and optional diff locks. coil suspension, optional sun roof and leather int as add-ons. optionable ala carte such as powertrain choice can be added for additional $7000 if opt of ingenium 6 with 350hp (detuned to differentiate from 110)
$67K large SUV- Discovery full size. standard 7 seats with pano roof. standard ingenium 6 cyl 400hp/ leatherette optional genuine leather/ AWD std with optional diff locks/ standard air suspension/ Slightly rugged adventurous looks positioned towards mostly ubran dwellers that tows ski, trailers and other toys on weekends at the alps or Tenerife
$72K Defender 110 entry 5 seats only 5 doors with ingenium 6 400hp 4x4 standard with diff locks. Standard rugged waterproof interior with optional panoramic roof and genuine leather leather. Air suspension standard. other off road capability enhancements a la carte. +$9000 on 130 body style(7 seats) +$8500 on safari 5 seats truck body.
$85K Range Rover sport ingenium 6 480hp genuine leather. 5 seats. full pano roof standard genuine leather optional windsor leather full air suspension 4x4 capability V8 at 600hp at $105K and SVR beyond that
$110K Range Rover Vogue Standard 700hp V8 base. Standard windsor leather full air suspension standard pano roof standard diff locks low range etc and capability. They can put whatever they want in this
With this lineup I think LR could make a killing.
4:57 but can it still be sold in a land Rover dealership?
The brand has moved quite far up market and I don't know if it really can have more "mainstream options" in its dealership.
6:33 the more you talk the more I think LR needs a new brand for affordable models.
Still rugged, but less leather and more "steel wheels"
12:19 Audi didn't, and it works.
15:05 from everything I've seen you guys just got the worst draw on that vehicle.
Fair point in the comments for Discovery and the money it costs. Its basicly direct rival of Subaru, but Subaru is x2 times cheaper so if LR want to make smtn with Discovery sport, they need to get rid of most of the usless features and put it in the price tag of Subaru Outback.
This is where we are supposed to suggest the car we want, right? Well, I’m going to alter my dream car to what they need, which is a volume world car.
They should do a new off-roader/ agricultural platform. Version 1 - a lightweight jeep/jimny competitor with convertible option and decent torque for weekend beach and soft road users as well as lighter ag uses. It only has to be fast enough to get out of its own way. Version 2 - a heavy axle version with a diesel hybrid and enough torque to tow around the farm and climb up and over a Jeep Rubicon, RAWR!
Badge engineering a Mahindra version would add extra value to the equation.
Jeep is sleeping, Lads. It’s a perfect time to pass them by and set your sites on Toyota.
The depreciation is way too high after 2 or 3 years of ownership, which is ridiculous.
The profit margins aren't there in the cheaper models, and they are cannibalising some of their own sales with the close cost and capability of Disco and Defender.
Disco should be positioned where the defender is, and defender should be a more rugged and durable vehicle with less luxury and improved durability.
Argument: LR is doing well in the luxury over ~US$100k segment.
History: JLR until recently had tried to compete with the German brands in the entry 'luxury' / premium market, ~US$40-50k, and almost went under, and Jaguar current is in the process of discontinuing all of their models with the only future replacement being the cancelled XJ electric project.
Solution: Try competing in the ~US$40-50k so that there is not a Bronco / Wrangler alternative...
Also line all four of the Range Rover models up and look at the size difference; Sure the Velar could be removed in favour of the Sport as they're both larger SUV's, but the Evoque is a small CUV for a specific customer.
i love the discovery 5 td6. it is a great all around vehicle that does so many things well. its off road capability, when equipped with the locking rear differential, is amazing. i like the rounded look- it doesn’t need to scream i am an off-road monster- but it is. the worst aspect of disco 5 ownership are the dealers. service and parts pricing is absurd. Paying outrageous prices for parts and service is bad but when outright incompetence is combined with a we could care less about customers attitude it is down right insulting and disrespectful. top dollar for 3rd rate service is unacceptable.
I'm watching this in a 2024 Discovery loner. Well my 2018 is in the shop😂 Discovery needs a redesign! It's virtually the same. Very comfortable to drive. Fits my four kids much better than the defender 110 - perhaps they emphasize the family hauler aspect
One thing that doesn't get mentioned enough is that the Discovery is much, much more cavernous inside than the Defender 110. The 130 is about the same size inside as the Disco but it just doesn't look as good as the 110 (or the Disco, honestly).
I am watching reels of Disco II absolutely devouring terrain while listening to this conversation. It is hard to accept that anything Tata manufactures is a Land Rover
I only remember JLR stopping production of Jaguar vehicles and going all EV on them. You'd think they'd share the platform with a Disco.
The Defender is the only vehicle in their lineup that looks like it could go offroad. The others are just too pretty to be be considered off roaders. Mostly for sidewalk jumping.
Hi I’m a Brit. Jaguar Land Rover are just luxury cars now owned by Tata just like the Mini is BMW and I think I’m right in saying VW own the Scout name. I could go on their just Names. Just buy an old truck and spend your money getting how you want,like your doing better engine,beef up the drivetrain and so on.
I am touching wood as I am typing this. My LR4 that I bought in January, following engine and suspension replacement (and lots of mods) has 25,000 trouble free miles on it. Many 1,000 plus road trips and I've done up to an On X Offroad 6 without the winch. I would love Land Rover to come out with an LR6 that does look like an "egg" well said. Tommy, you have the number, call them up and make that happen please.
In Europe I'd say 95 percent of discovery 3s are diesels' nobody would want a petrol as a daily!
Probably following Jaguar out of business
Defender truck would suffer from the Chicken Tax, sadly.
They're going upmarket, same as they intend with Jaguar. Margin over volume. That's why Disco is being ignored.
Most of the discovery sales are to dealers to use as loaners.
true and who buys a valoer or evokes ??
@@youtubecarspottersguide1 And Real Estate Agents
Even though the new LRs are fairly reliable, I feel like their ridiculous maintenance schedule will bite them soon
Yep if i were to replace my Discovery 4, it would be a new defender not a Disco5
Come on guys, wasn’t this obvious. I was calling the new defender the best discovery ever since it first leaked. LR made a huge blunder calling it a defender. Now they can’t go back.
Several points in this I agree, the Defenders should absolutely be the discovery! Seriously the the evoke is a joke, as well as the velor. Both should be dissapered forever.
As a long time disco owner, having a one series and a LR3 as a daily driver absolutely love the lr3 and the discos should go back to the style and utility of the (current defender)
As far as the rovers go, since I just acquired a 2010 sport supercharge. And love its design. Again there should only be the two.
So in my world the top of line Range Rover, then a sport model.
The new disco and then a sport model (which should be more like the current defender)
And the classic no frills, get down the beaten trail Defenders..
Are you listening LR CORP?! 😊
The US market is very different from the European one. Opportunities to off road in the UK and EU are fairly limited and with $10 gallon a reality, gasoline cars are irrelevant to all but the very wealthy, hence the norm for diesels at 2l and above. Disco Sport and Evoque are the big sellers here. But with no low range and low clearance they are not used much off road although better than the competition. I can see JLR investing in making the D Sport tougher for just the US market, particularly with only gasoline engines which lack the torque for off road performance. Despite their age the old Defender is very common in Europe, but JLR has no interest in this market.
How does Jeep do in the reliability stakes ?