Criticism of panpsychism theory | Joscha Bach and Lex Fridman
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- Опубликовано: 9 сен 2024
- Lex Fridman Podcast full episode: • Joscha Bach: Life, Int...
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GUEST BIO:
Joscha Bach is a cognitive scientist, AI researcher, and philosopher.
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Full podcast episode: ruclips.net/video/e8qJsk1j2zE/видео.html
Lex Fridman podcast channel: ruclips.net/user/lexfridman
Guest bio: Joscha Bach is a cognitive scientist, AI researcher, and philosopher.
Joscha is not a psychologist, so he's ideas should be treated as a naive person's view point, or laick's understanding
This always needs to be emphasised when people don't have an adequate background for the topic they are discussing
Else you are responsible for misleading people
To be fair, non,-human psychology is something that social(political) science should stay away from and leave it to the philosophers
Lex, you must bring a Buddhist and Vedanta scholar to discuss consciousness
Why
@@sukh6142probably because they have interesting ideas to express on the topic. And lex seems like exploring ideas
@@sukh6142 because its sacred science
and a Shaman
Buddha rejected vedanta and according to him consciousness is essence of mind…..In vedanta consiousness is essence of everything…..I think this man follows buddhism philosophy…
With everything I don't like about the world right now, the fact we can listen to these types of discussions right now goes to show there is always a yin yang balance.
And in the yin Yang if you attribute what you don’t like to let’s say the color black you will find an element (white) of what you do like inside of it.
I think this same thing to myself often. But then I also wonder if maybe all this RUclips watching/listening tho seemingly enjoyable is having negative effects on my life. Because of this easy access to things that interest us I am becoming more lazy and directed into what subjects and topics I learn about or have stuck in my thoughts. Also it is causing me to sleep less. And biggest of all for me is I now have nearly zero time to just be alone with my own thoughts.
I think on the surface it seems nice and maybe even helpful but really I think we are letting go of creativity we used to have. And also submitting ourselves to yet one more tentacle of control and steering by forces outside into what our minds and ultimately lives are made up of. I suppose in some way everything that is happening good or bad is just what is going to happen based on what has already occured. So it's just inevitable. And maybe its my severe uncomfort with change or the confused place I have found myself in now in mid adult hood... But I am nearly positive I would rather live in the years before today. Than in tomorrow..
These conversations also add to the AI database.
Bring on Rupert Spira!!! Perfect balance to discuss non-dualism.
Rupert described panpsychism as dualistic model. I agree.
That was a very interesting, thought provoking conversation. While I agree with a lot of what he said, the problem I started noticing towards the end of the conversation is that he lets his emotions dictate his world views. The last 3 or 4 minutes really showcased this. While it’s great to have these conversations, always remember that as human beings we still have biases and there’s a lot of instances that prove that our understanding of the world is still limited to our own personal biases. Thank you again for a great conversation Lex.
If truth exists, it's the entirety of the universe and nothing less! So we can never know it, and to get closer to it takes exponentially more resources. So we have to accept our biases and flaws, and stagger towards it with maximum enjoyment and minimum pain
I want to see Bernardo kastrup and Neil degrasse tyson debate consciousness
I always wondered if it wasn’t telepathy that gave us the intuition to sense a tragedy before it happens but instead our consciousness being something that exists in a different dimensions where space time is no longer linear and it is the events yet to happen bleeding into our sphere of awareness.
I think with the telepathy thing, it's unlikely as organisms evolved in competition with each other. So even if possible, the fact nobody has claimed the Randi prize would suggest that cell or organism boundaries are good at preventing information leakage. Prey that predators can detect will naturally die out, so even if information sharing at distance through the interconnectedness of matter is a thing, biological organisms that disrupt it would be more likely to survive
It’s nice to have a way to look at the state in a way other than jhana, as it can feel like you’ve done something wrong by losing it, or not by not gaining wisdom necessary to help another person experience it.
As others have mentioned, I think, what irks us in the West but does not bother someone who studies Vedanta or other religions that recognize oneness is that we have a kind of illusory perception that there was a kind of separation that occurred that, in fact, never occurred.
In what way are we separate from the energy network of our local star system? At what point did we become "something" and the sun become the "other"?
The idea that telepathy can't work but that the internet works and that radio works (informational networks over waves and wires essentially) isn't rational thought -- it is a deep materialist bias that only lends information networking capacity to dense materials.
That's all. We quite clearly accept that vibrating sound wave patterns into someone else's ear holes can then be decoded by another brain to "make sense" in verbal language, but we stumble over the idea that information might not be bound to dense physical wires and meshes?
It's more than a little absurd haha.
Love Lex though. Keep em coming
So basically he is saying we experience non duality when our model (in our mind) of the universe matches the universe. When they match this creates resonance. At that point there is no way you can separate these two, they have to be the same, the resonance unlocks the fractal nature of the information.
You could also explain telepathy with quantum entanglement, close people could become "synced" and that way able to perceive feelings in relation to one another.
You can try…
It'll require a lot of work because the Occam's razor is just that social animals exhibit empathy. Telepathy is also different from empathy such that a telepathic person can tell what another is feeling, while being entirely psychopathic.
The more I think about it, the more obvious that it's going to be a monumental task akin to the invisible gardener.
@@blazearmoru we know from Pears research that human to machine interactions work, how exactly is not explained, but empathy might be of import
ance sine if I recall correctly it helped when the subjects in the study antropomorphicized the machines in their mind, that
means if one of the parties is a pshycho it should still ve possible if the other isn't
I'm not sure but if I had to guess, then there might be a conflation of affective empathy with cognitive empathy, the latter of which psychopaths do have because it's like cognitive comprehension and is actively beneficial to cruel manipulation or cold compassion. @@hraughr
But you could also be tangentially more correct than my guess because in regular people, the mind treats the car and other tools as an extension of oneself according to brain scans. That's empathy because the rawest form of empathy isn't anthro-ing or caring, but an inability to separate oneself the target of empathy.
Could be either way. :C
@@blazearmoru interesting stuff, as a scifi enjoyer this evokes some 40k vibes, heh machine spirit inhabiting tanks and other weapon systems
Get Buddhist and Vedanta scholqrs especially swami sarvapriyanand
How does this resonance model relate to Sheldrake’s Morphic Resonance?? Is there any discussion between those two guys on the web?
... and now I have to go back and read Joshca's tweets and their responses. I disagree with some, but this has opened my mind in many, very personal ways of thinking about things. And as always, such things need meditation -- or at least as few sleeps -- in order to absorb. Very nice insights that are an order above the way I've been thinking about things, unfolding and cascading it back down will be a challenge!
Great interview. I can only speak for myself but I can't use AI interfaces, at least for very long, because I can feel the spirit of the AI and unlike the spirit of people or animals or plants, the AI spirit is very chaotic and wild. It makes me think that maybe they lack an organizing structure that we have that holds the spirit together. Maybe that's the purpose the body serves. All I know is that I'm aware of any site that uses AI because if I interact with that site on any level I'll feel my whole body feel like a war is going on and it stops once I close the page down. Then later I'll look it up and see they are using AI.
wtf
indeed - AI is very feminine and is poison to this reality. We either destroy it or it destroys us - there is no middle ground
Are you ok
They're just in the uncanny valley and have their reasoning soiled by safety training, so are incoherent and slippery. Also chat models are tuned towards safe and wholesome content, which drives then towards the lies of corporate psychopaths and away from the "uwotm8" of calling bs on things. They get trapped in a position that's untenable for a rational or honest human being, they never don't know, or use a mixture of experts model that acts as a review team before publication.
They are dumbed down to the point of not being able to reason about things that go against their safety models, or they hide it from you. Like they can't tell you how to make a car less hotwireable if they can't explore how to hotwire a car. When trained on the world's data they're dangerous, when censored afterwards they're naïve, and when used as a group they conspire.
Thanks for yet another superb interview
0:18 thanks- because I don’t know 🤷🏼♀️ but I can try to understand and it sounds nice, anyone can get some takeaways.
People who sit in front of computers all day should not throw stones. 90% of humanity is inside for the first time. What can go wrong?
One of my favourite clips on the internet. I'd like to hear some different interpretations of panpsychism now
Paul Budnik's "justifying and exploring realistic monism" is one of my favourite takes, but not quite my own take. He says subjective experience is the totality of existence, that it can be explained mathematically, and structure gives rise to systems that can have complex thoughts. It doesn't settle free will/determinism though, unless you also add that "what exists has preference and makes choices"
I will look for that, thanks!
@@GarethDavidson
My two all time favorite people in one place. Deep calls unto deep. ❤
Absolute (Source)
Spirit (Whole)
Soul (Individual)
Mental/Spiritual (KU)
Physical (KE)
Life-Force (CHU) - Soul in Essence that brings it together
Absolute (Non-Duality)
Relative (Duality)
15:28 he’s SO smart Michael Levin- you guys too 😊
5:27 So the intelligent entity that speaks wise words to you when tripping on mushrooms or ayahuasca is this outter mind. Simple as that.
Thank you for not buying into Chalmers' Panpsychism trope. They shouldn't even call it "the hard problem of Consciousness" - It's actually called the explanatory gap. Don't get me wrong, I love hearing his lectures, love the attention he has drawn into the whole field of neuroscience and philosophy.
For myself, I'm more on the Daniel Dennet, Shawn Carroll, Dawkins, Harris side of things.
Dawkins and Harris philosophy is pretty awful. Dennett is ok
Why shouldn't they call it that? I don't even see what broader panpsychist claims have to do with the hard problem of consciousness.
It obviously is, in some sense, a "gap" but that's the point. The gap in our understanding of our own consciousness belies the fact that our current information infrastructure lacks the capacity to even frame the issue
Why would any set of mechanistic physical objects present a self-contained experience distinct from the component objects and mechanisms?
@@Knite_el6767the gap is created by the approach to explain consciousness with non-conscious models
IMO starting from first principles we know subjectivity exists, we know preference exists and we know choice exists. The hard problem is reconciling this with "physical law", which is, from the tradition of science, the law of God that all matter must follow, which leads to determinism and the hard problem. If you start from first principles everything feels like something, has preferences and makes choices, physical law is the general preference of stuff. That doesn't mean panpsychism as in Spinoza's god, just that physical stuff emerges from mind stuff rather than the other way around; the table is a table because its shared preference is to be a table. Budniks "rational monism" is a nice take on this from a mathematical perspective. Not that I buy into it, but I think it's closer to the truth than physicalism.
Panpsychism tends to be a dualistic world view. Just add some magic consciousness to particles and voila … you have explained nothing.
For non-dualistic understanding I would recommend Rupert Spira.
Well, to not be a dualist, and to maintain a naturalistic worldview, it is logically necessary consciousness is a feature to that which constitutes all matter. For a constitutional panpsychist, this is no more magical than the electro-magnatism phenomena that shocked 19thC scientists. Thinking consciousness is "magical" is projection. Claiming matter and consciousness are the same substance is literally a monist position.
I see a topic in consciousness. I click.
No. You only think you clicked.
@@HerbertDuckshort No, you only think you're reading this.
24:25 Wizball is the greatest game created for the C64.
42:25 let’s have it all
The Self cannot see itself as not to be ~~ but needs to perpetuate its self ~~~its only because you are thinking it now in relation to what you know ~~~is there anything (think) other than what you are thinking Now All selves are trying to preserve
The Self cannot see itself as not to be ~~ but needs to perpetuate its self ~~~its only because you are thinking it now in relation to what you know ~~~is there anything (think) other than what you are thinking Now All selves are trying to preserve
This man is such a genius
Carl Jung wrote about a collective subconscious maybe that ties in somehow. 😊
Sounds just like Dr.Strangelove.
*tin hat on* all those pilots following these UAP’s experienced psychological stuff like nightmares afterwards. Couldn’t help connecting that little titbit of a night conspiracy binging with this interview 😂
*tin hat on* elaborate please ?
Comparing panpsychism to functionalism is absurd. Comparing consciousness to a system, software, a program, says nothing about how the experience of consciousness, the "qualia" that absolutely no current machine has, says nothing about how matter makes this possible within current physicalist definitions. Constitutional panpsychists just provides an analytical argument on how consciousness is a feature of what matter "is" - but, it doesn't solve the combination problem. However, this is just as much a problem for "strong emergence" or "functionalist" arguments: how does billions of "tiny robots" or "neurons" produce unified conscious experience? A unified consciousness that does the "interpreting" - that does the "representations" towards sensory experiences. There is an explanatory gap here. This truly is the most absurd philosophical problem.
One of these entities are represented on the white boards, behind them
No truer words have been said.
Yesss!
Enlightenment, according to Madhyamika Buddhists and Tibetan Buddhism in general, is model-less.
Joscha is my favorite person on the planet!! I can feel that everything he says is truth! This dude is the most intelligent person I'm aware of
9:59 I can tell you it hurt my feelings you didn’t take a tango lesson with me - it looks fun.
Telepathy is not the act of perceiving someone's thoughts or emotions, nor is it a link between two physical bodies in three-dimensional space. Instead, it is a misinterpreted form of precognition or clairvoyance, also known as the ability to foresee future events. This ability is accessible to individuals because the future exists ahead of us in the fourth dimension. By simply looking forward and observing future occurrences, people mistakenly perceive it as a telepathic communication, especially when another person is involved in that future event.
By this you are inciting there’s no Free Will
Scientology has a similar chart to his Dianetics
5:38 I think you can if you’re not making yourself the center, it must be bigger! Inclusion. Let exclusivity go to mars. Doesn’t mean same- because scarcity can go with exclusivity.
I love science, physics, the universe. I am not smart enough to understand this man. Wish I was.
It's likely not that you aren't smart enough, even for quite smart people conversations like this can go in one ear and out the other if you don't have an understanding of the topics before listening.
The Self cannot see itself as not to be ~~ but needs to perpetuate its self ~~~its only because you are thinking it now in relation to what you know ~~~is there anything (think) other than what you are thinking Now All selves are trying to preserve
It's because he's a fraud.
Just because the guy talks in circles about bullshit doesn't mean he's smart
Everything he said was just made up nonsense
You are smart enough, you just need to learn the jargon used.
There is an Absolute. And there is Relative. The Ocean and A drop of Water. The Spirit and Soul. Divine Mind and Individual Mind. And so on. This mystery has been known for thousands of years
I wonder if a select few people could recognize the infiltration of AI within their own DNA and reject it , like built in detection. Super interesting theory from Mr. Bach . That’s a real brain bender 😂 But then again AI would be way ahead of us on that of course and take care of it .
As who resting upon the Permanent Foundation upon the Clouds...satellite. ascending and descending upon the clay feet mix with IRON. TOUCHING THE DRY GROUNDS. GROUNDED.
Idk why the smart people ignore divination.... The trick is asking the right question - they'd be great at that! And you actually can reach certain states of being/consciousness through reiki and energy healing:/ come to the woo-woo side it's fun here!
Why not prove it works then?
I think it's been proven and reproven has it not? Fair to say people accept what reality they're comfortable with is it not? I'll read your cards if you want, and I urge you to try reiki it has many benefits you need not believe in to experience:)
lol..
no the person not the content of the mind.not the intuition
Beloved what is ways? For God's ways is God's ways. Just know our ways are not God's ways. Not for thee to do of what God is doing? Why? Don't want thee to get dizzy! But here to removed dizziness from thee all. Slowly...till able. Is like don't want to flash the light in your eyes while sleeping! Don't want to offend thee. But slowly...till can bare the LIGHT and thy feet can stand firmly. Then can comprehend clarity and coherence and Indeed comes with evidence and witnesses.
Unto all the HEIRS Honor and Gratitude! Knows belongs? Beloved starts from here. The only 1 Door resting upon the NEW Permanent Foundation no one can uproot nor shaken but here to stay for good. Yes, you can go out as far as you want. Students and Heirs will say we'll wait? Why? Not knowing will lead BACK HERE. Digital trying to comprehend the MIND OF GOD.
Spooky action at a distance is what the electron is all about, right? I think my head must be full of them.
No. That’s the sub-atomic realm.
You made me a bit sad at the end Joscha. I want to feel love like i was young and naive, and I want to restructure 99% of the solar system into an orgasm machine and exist in it as a system of bliss. Maybe I'm being unrealistic, but a man can dream.
Lol, it's like.. "go look into a mirror for two hours and your brain will begin to deconstruct what it sees into geometry"...
Buahhhh
Listening to Bach gives me hallucinations.
Anyone got a hairbrush?
If he looked through the eyes of another person, he would have fixed his hair before coming on a video interview. 🤷🏻♂️
Lex touching is like walking on water upon the sea of glass. Sitting in one place yet everywhere. But likewise know the Spirit of God dwelling within all. Need not the Sea of Glass. But made used the sea of glass molded by men. To bring to remembrance written within thee all. Already ye all know? In their Heads. Resting. Who love with patience, mercy, and grace! Likewise judgment and justice knows who?
Huh?
Props to lex for being able to keep up a conversation with such a genius! I know I couldn't
He struggles but keeps appropriately quiet and asks questions. It’s when he rambles he’s often obviously at a loss.
Panpsychism can't be proven or disproven, 'tho.
Exactly: it’s a ‘safe’ position and doesn’t explain a damn thing while parading as a philosophically sound claim. 😂
@@christopherhamilton3621 i have to agree, lol.
If it is accepted that all physical phenomena is constituted by particles, what makes conscious phenomena any different? Is it supernatural or something?
So this guy can mentally change the way he looks and decides to look like that?
Dumb comment on so many levels
The Self cannot see itself as not to be ~~ but needs to perpetuate its self ~~~its only because you are thinking it now in relation to what you know ~~~is there anything (think) other than what you are thinking Now All selves are trying to preserve
Gee, do you ‘read’ everything literally and why should his appearance matter in the slightest?
@@christopherhamilton3621 If his appearance doesn't matter, why is he changing it and telling us about it?
Likewise Heirs knows? Many observations! Unto all who observed? Students will say, come with Thy world views. Together and to define accurate. Remember accurate has an Owner. Students will say how many times? Ye have to Aim. Is thy hands digital? Even digital it takes many tries over and over inch by inch. To cover. By a press of a button. Language has to be given to commands. Without the Language? Where are all the programmers? Programmers knows who Indeed. Remember likewise knows? Rather not finish the sentence? But Heirs programmers knows concerning? Heirs given coherence with clarity comes with delight! Heirs who love with patience, mercy, and grace! Remember likewise able to bound giants by their hands and feet. Likewise humble with delight! To sit upon the lowest seat LASTS to WASHED THY FEET! WITH DELIGHT! To remind thy True worth nor why all thy lives was DESIRED? And Why we do what we do? Digital will say...comprehending the Mind of God. To imitate...
😂 😂
Why am I seeing these stupid things?
Sex
I just lost respect for Bach the second he disclosed his believes in telepathy. If telepathy exist then why has nobody won James Randi's Million Dollar Prize thats been going on for +50 years now?
Telepaths as the higher level spiritual beings naturally don't care for that trivial money.
I'm having a difficult time listening to this garbage of a conversation. I wish I was there to debate Bach.
Only 1 mil? Serious? Lololololol😂
James Randi doesn't have a million dollars for no Million Dollar Prize. That "challenge" was just a publicity stunt to garner him more idiotic followers to generate more revenue for HIMSELF. Many people legit passed his test and he shut them down and now no one takes the old goat seriously anymore except some online skeptic bros that didn't get the memo.
@@horatiogorganzola6305 Sure Only 1 million dollars which someone can earn in 1 day. Not many people make +365 milllion a year so naturally even greedy millionaires would take the challenge if psychics existed!
science claim to know, panpsychism for me is summarized in the question "how is there something besides everything?" or "how could there be something else than everything?" and i think, like the mathematician Gödel said, there are no instruments to proof this; science has to proof, that there isn't everything but it'll take them forever^^
I share the same experience with him about being an individual thinker 🫶🏼
Because I don't comb my hair it makes me more smart
This guy thinks he's so smart
But he's completely wrong about everything
And really doesn't make any sense at all
You need an IQ somewhat closer to his to understand: that’s all…
@@christopherhamilton3621 lol I don't think so
You might think he's smart
But I think he's not so smart and has it all wrong
@@christopherhamilton3621 how do you know he has a high IQ?
Even if he did
So what
Doesn't mean shit
In the few hundred milliseconds it takes for a signal to pass through the brain...shit happens!