Why Invincible Is Evil In Most Universes: Viltrumite Culture Deep Dive
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- Invincible or Mark Grayson is evil in most alternate universes. This video goes over the reasons why he follows Omni man in conquering Earth. It explores Viltrumite Culture in depth.
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In the 4th episode of season 2 it’s revealed by art that Debbie was the one who mostly raised mark since Nolan was usually busy being omniman. He even said that she’s the reason why they aren’t slaves. I think in some alternate versions Omni-man took more of the predominant role of raising mark and subtly instilled viltrumite ideals.
Absolutely! I made this video before episode 4 came out, or I would have talked about this.
I don't think omni man took a more predominant role in other universes. I think in the other universes Mark got his powers earlier. Nolan was kind of disappointed that Mark got his powers as late as he did and said it "complicated things," and once Mark got his powers, Nolan was much more involved than before. So if Mark got his powers by say 10, then nolan had a lot more time to mold him and convince him to be a part of the viltrum empire. Thus, not developing the humanity that our Mark has.
@@yeah3708 I think all are possible since it’s a multiverse. If I remember from the comics I think I remember some versions of mark conquered earth but not for the viltrum empire just for himself. I think that’s kinda neat.
i think it shows that main nolan likes being a hero more than he likes to admit
for me, I think in most of those realities Debbie is killed by someone which can definitely be enough to push someone like Mark over.
I think we get an inkling of Mark’s “possible evil” side in Season 1 when, when having an argument with his mother not long after he gets his powers, he tells her “make me.” After Debbie calls him out on this, he quickly backs off and apologizes, feeling genuinely guilty. Maybe I’m looking too much into it, but I can see how “our” Mark could’ve easily became like his AU selves had his mother not been the one to keep him, for lack of a better term, down to earth and rooted in place.
Yea Debbie dying, alr being dead, or failing this convo is def a step towards Mark thought process turning into "these insignificant humans aren't worth protecting"
What I think is funny about that scene is Debbie could turn around and say that. You were stronger than me before your powers came in. It’s called being a seventeen year old boy. Nothing’s changed. My authority doesn’t come from my physical strength 😅
I always took that as Mark acting like a teenage boy and him having to come back down mentally because he realizes he's not a regular teenager. Like it isn't unnatural for teens to be rebellious and mothers in particular are often weaker than their teenage sons so then the authority transitions more from physical dominance to something intangible like respect.
@@dionotdioDebbie would also obviously have a huge target on her back. Makes sense that she would be killed in a lot of universes.
In every Superman story the Greatest Heroes are his parents.
Its bugs me out thinking the reason we only have one good mark isnt because hes the only one who chose to be good but rather that hes the only one to survive commiting to that choice.
i remember reading a theory that our mark got his powers really late, giving nolan more time to learn how to be human
@@tacticallemon7518 that makes too much sense. If he got his powers at the age of 5 he'd have been groomed to be a bastard.
By all accounts, Nolan should EASILY kill season one Mark. Just two or three hits from Nolan, Mark's in a coma. Nolan has to not hold back, but also not try, in order to turn Mark comatose in just one hit. The problem is, Nolan has no clue how strong or weak Mark is, so he gambles with Mark's health with every strike. Really, it's luck and decision making on both Mark and Nolan whether or not Mark survives.
Mark has no idea how capable his dad is, and unfortunately for his face, he didn't see it coming. Just like Amber said... What foreshadowing this woman has. Anyway, Mark was REALLY rolling the dice in each encounter with a Viltrumite, the most profound being the one with dear old Nolan. Nolan could honestly just conquer Earth in six months, tops. I can see him spending that time convincing the US, China, India, and other big governments that Viltrumite rule would ultimately be good for Earth, but 20 years of superheroing and father figuring for what? The fuck's he been doing?!
That makes a lot of sense
Pretty sure Omni man was prepared to kill Mark at the end of season 1. It was a fluke that Mark said "I'd still have you" and Omni Man began to change.
it’s survivorship bias most marks who’re good are killed by his father. they were also all hand picked by levy so of course he’d only pick evil ones.
It makes sense that Levy either didn’t know or deliberately omitted the existence of good Marks, since in universes where Mark is good, there is no incentive for that universe’s Levy to join the others
Mark Smiles: "Yep, he's evil."
Mark is sad, distant, or angry: "Yep, he's a good guy."
Theory:
Basic rules of Multiverses are that they are created depending on our decisions. Whenever you are thinking about turning left or right, an alternative universe is created for both decisions.
The reason there are so many evil marks because during the fight with Omni man, Mark considered giving in to his father's views that many times.
Every time Mark even considered for a second to give up and do as his father told him, an alternative earth was created where he did.
So regardless of upbringing and other decisions, just that fight between Nolan and Mark resulted possibly in a hundreds evil versions of Marks.
Alternatively: nearly every other combination of decisions would result in Mark being Evil. If Nolan and Debie didn't raise Mark the way they did,if Omniman took over earth while Mark was still a child,if Immortal didn't interrupt their conversation,if Mark himself chose differently,If Mark never met Allan,if Nolan didn't fly away,if Omniman didn't find the Thraxans or if Invincible didn't join him etc. any of these could have resulted in invincible Joining the Viltrumites eventually either by choice or out of necessity because he wouldn't have a chance of fighting against them
@OK-yy6qz In other words. He's never strong enough to stop the Viltramites or every decision that changes from the main universe will lead to evil invincible
@@eduardopantoja9115 the second one. If anything at all happens differently than the main timeline Viltrumites win one way or another. Our main universe mark is like that 1 in 200.000 possibilities in the Avengers movies.
I don't exactly agree. I don't think Mark ever wavered in his views. I don't buy that from his character. And if that was the case he definitely would be following his father reluctantly and not as pridefully as he did in the au episode. I think a far better and smarter writing explanation would be if the determining factor being Debbie and whether or not she was relevant in his life like the other comments say.
Honestly though "the multiverse forms as universes are created when you make decisions" is frankly the stupidest version of multiverses.
I wish it wasn't so overused.
2 things:
- Nolan being more involved and implanting more of his ideas. I can imagine a lot of timelines where Debbie died or Nolan realised that letting her have the reigns would result in a kind and compassionate rather than omnicidal slaughterer.
- Nolan having a better argument, the same argument Mark has just received with episode 4: "Kill a few now, or Viltrum comes and kills a whole lot more later. Those that don't resist are somewhat well off, other than getting their natural resources yoinked. When you think about it, you're saving lives through trolley problem."
It seemed like Mark was a lot more understanding of Omni man before he said he viewed his mom as a pet.
Also I wonder if there's "survivorship bias" here, in the sense that most of the AU marks are evil because the good ones died. Probably in his fight against his dad
My argument would have been. "I love your mother i really do. But i have no choice. A dozen viltrumite will come, and some of them even stronger than me. I alone managed to defeat the guardians. What hope Earth has, if i alone can defeat their strongest cards? What they will do, if they face a dozen of my people? And what you think we can do? If Earth resist, and we side with humanity, then the only difference we will make is a +2 on their k*** count."
@@akuladoctor7355The thing is Omni man and Mark are of Royal descent so they can literally order the viltruminate to not conquer earth 🌏 once they figure it out of course since I believe they are good Marks that sided with Nolan but wasn’t necessarily evil and once his royal status was revealed they could have guided the empire in a better direction
Evil Mark is just a Democrat?
Because for story reasons it makes it seem more interesting if our mark is the only who stayed good then he's unique
He isn't the only one. There are a few dimensions where he doesn't turn evil.
Maybe it's not that other Mark's don't stay good. Maybe its just that they don't survive to do so.
It’s also a flip of the tradition alternate version story of a superhero where most other versions are good but one to a select few are evil.
@@user-yj8co6vr6jreminds me of lex luthor from Crisis On Two Earth's
This argument is dumb, because it's the answer for every question you could possibly ask. Everything ever written was "Bc story reasons"
Id like to think that the real factor that determines how Mark turns out in his universe is how his mother acts in that universe.
Or if shes alive... i forget who said it, but depending when or how Debbie dies during Mark's childhood or teenage years, that might also affect if he would join Nolan in conquering the planet. You could see an argument where Debbie dies of Cancer, Vitrumites have tech to cure it on their ships, if Earth submits, they get cure to it and alot more.
this could also be why omni man also changed
@@peterwhite6415 angstrom said in some universes Debbie joins the viltrum side, so some Debbie's just did that instead of dying
I thing Angstrom Levy confirms this
My boy Mark got his ass whoopped in every fight, no wonder he's so down to earth...
Just like you would have if you had to fight those crazy enemies
@@blacc_rain8124 nahh, I'd win
@@andryemkha6232 Debbie solos your entire verse.
@@andryemkha6232 Always bet on the femboy lover, uraume is FINISHED!!
anyone would get their ass whooped in a fight with the tv show amber
We see alternate version of both Omni-man and Mark. But we have only seen one Debby ! I'll go with the Art theory from episode 4 season 2 it's thanks to her that Earthlings of "the main dimension of the story" are not enslaved or dead.
Perhaps the alternate versions of Nolan killed Debby very early on in Mark's childhood. (Make it look like falling down the stares and breaking her neck or a car accident) to avoid the "soft" influence of motherhood. And basically raised him as a single father and implemented the intergalactic Nazi ideology of Viltrum early on in his education. Different alternatives, Debby died in childbirth. (Thus mark killing her with his super skull) different road, same result : Single parent household with Nolan as the only voice in his ear.
Single dads >>>>>>> Single moms.
I belive a "Mark got is powers earlier" would be also a pretty good explanation
Just imagine, mark got his powers at 6 or 7
Omni-man just snaps and kills Debbie
Mark is no her son anymore
Hes not a pet like her
He is a Viltrumite. "And I need to raise him like one"
Nolan was so dubious about doing hsi mission in the series, cause he REALLY was hopeful Mark was just human, he even accepted that aready... and then... bum... Mark is not human
Don't throw the term nazi around like that. They're very imperialistic and authoritarian but as far as we can see they're meritocratic and don't discriminate based on skin color or any arbitrary characteristic just personal strength (provided you have any ammount of viltrumite blood in your veins)
@@dean_l33 I agree. Even non Viltrumites got a little respect If they are Strong enougth
@@dean_l33 Nah they're basically nazis but instead of hating anybody who isn't considered Aryan or close enough to Aryan they hate every other alien species in the entire universe.
Debbie makes mark better human. Its like aunt may and peter parker. Not good morals,no good exits. Love that concept
If Nolan had even a tiny grasp of tact or basic salesmanship then there's no reason for Mark to not join him
I don't think so. There's a reason you've got the Coalition of Planets fighting back against the Viltrumites.
It's not just because of sentimentality for "muh freedom". Worlds conquered by the Viltrumites are ruthlessly exploited for all they're worth and then left to die.
Hard to make a sales pitch when the primary upside is a crock of shit.
Or... journalism. A head of a newspaper agency even.
Him calling Debby a pet or not is what I’m confident makes the difference if Mark joins him or not
@@MylesKillis That's probably it. When Nolan first begins his sales pitch, you can see that although Mark is visibly confused and upset, he's not necessarily opposed to the idea. He's too preoccupied with thoughts that his Dad never really loved him to even consider thinking about Nolan's actual proposition.
It's only when Nolan calls Debbie a pet that Mark becomes completely unreceptive to joining the Viltrumites because it confirmed what he was fearing in that moment.
@@lazylonewolf
Nolan: "What were doing? Saving the weak humans? You're fired!"
His brain cell: "Chief, the Earth."
Nolan: "Alright, you're unfired, I need you, come here."
Nolan"What will you have left over 500 years?" Mark"You, Dad, I'll have you." Nola flees the planet. It's the little things that made the most difference.
In the alternate universe, Mark on TV is telling people about how good it is for them to become part of the Viltrumite Empire. I think he joined Omni-Man simply because he felt this was now what it meant to be a hero.
Honestly just changing the arguments would have gone a long way.
As he says, Earth's fate was decided the moment the Empire found it. Planets that join the empire without too much friction are apparently quite well off as Viltrumites have a rather hands-off policy, but resistance is met with extreme prejudice, Unopans being a prime example.
So that's just the situation and Nolan should have used that as the main argument instead of how humanity is meaningless. If Earth resists billions will die, and there is nothing they can do against the might of an army of Viltrumites. Even if Nolan would betray the empire and join Mark and defend the planet to the death, there is absolutely nothing they could do to change Earth's fate. Two Viltrumites against the full strength of the empire whose members are just as strong or stronger than they are. They would get outnumbered 20 to 1 and while they are beaten to death a single additional Viltrumite can just break the world in half at the same time.
It could also be that he’s not evil in most universes but rather because Angstrom Levi is focused on gathering marks to fight for him, he focused on universes in which he turned evil and can be more easily persuaded or somethin (also to hurt this universes mark more probs) and given that there could be an infinite number of universes there could easily be a infinite number of universes with an evil mark while still having an infinite number of good marks… because infinity is confusing
If I recall, Angstrom had said even before he went crazy after the explosion, that Invincible was evil in most universes. In fact, a big part of the reason why he fixated on Mark the way he did, was that when his conscious merged with his counterparts, none of them had any positive recollections of Mark in any capacity. All, or the vast majority. of his many universal clones existed with evil renditions of Mark. That says something.
@@goomba8170 to be fair that is definitely possible although with true infinity it also means that there really isn’t a “most” of anything. As is said, infinity is very confusing and an infinite number of universes means that there can be both an infinite number of good marks and an infinite number of evil ones, and I doubt angstrom even got close to exploring all of them.
@@TheEventHorizon909 Then we take the approach that invincible is evil most universes as in, the universes he saw, and we chilling, which just means, lmao mark got unlucky mf only saw the bad him, when there are infinite good versions of mark
I think it can be a number of things. One Debbie could have died when Mark was young causing him to be raised only by Omniman and gotten to a point where he saw humans as inferior. Or it was all of the killing seeing he dad is right. From a purely logical perspective Viltrimites are superior to humans in nearly every way. Hundreds of times faster, stronger, tougher, tens of times longer lived, so of course they'd rule and should be in charge.
(But honestly I thought that the main reason they'd conquer the earth is to get busy and make more Viltrimite/human hybrids in order to repopulate their people.)
I saw another comment, and it boils down to that it's not just Mark CHOOSING to side with his dad, it's that when he doesn't, he usually doesn't survive. Really simple to think about - Nolan's lightest attacks were strong enough to crack Mount Everest and cause massive avalanches, and Mark's durability at the time was around island level. A few good hits from Nolan, fuck it maybe just one, would be enough to kill Mark.
It's literally putting a teenager with anxiety up against a seasoned veteran.
That’s a damn good point
I suspect another reason is that he was a late bloomer to getting his power in this universe, which might’ve not happened in other universes. The latest that viltrumites get their powers is by 18 years old and he got his at 17. Peoples minds are a lot less open to change of ideology the older they get and if omni man started with his plans to take over when mark got his powers at a younger age he could’ve been more susceptible to persuasion. That’s been my theory at least
i think THE moment that probably changed everything would be the baseball scene. and that could be why it has such significance.
the baseball moment might have been a defining moment for their relationship. without it nolan may not have viewed humanity as precious as it could be and spread his viltrumite influence on mark more rather than less
we know that nolan ran away when things got too tough on earth.
and that he didn’t want to care for the aliens in s2.
i wouldn’t be surprised if after this baseball scene, nolan became afraid of his growing attachments and in a roundabout way, spent MORE time as a superhero in order to run away from this attachment. this ended up making mark not only want to be a hero, but rely on his moms influence more
I saw a few similar comments and I think the main difference is Debbie. She is Mark lightning rod she is grounded him. And maybe in different universe she was more submissive to Nollans will, and Mark saw this as a weakness for the whole human race.
In the Invincible War arc, a lot of Mark(s) say that the Grayson home was destroyed, maybe that's what made them evil
We know Nolan was trying to convince himself to a degree like calling his wife a pet. His lifespan is so much longer and he is trying to distance himself from humanity with that statement.
Nolan shud have toned down the vilthrumite superiority and not called Debbie a pet and mark might have seen that they cudnt stand up to the full might of vilthrum.
If Nolan wasn't as internally conflicted, he cud have convinced Mark.
I think he was already doing his best to. Nolan's thousands of years old - he isn't just outliving humans, he's outlearning them. How could he ever see humans as equal when he understands cosmic truths we never will, or could parry attacks that could split planets in half, or be old enough to see the rise and fall of Rome and live to tell the tale?
@@sary7154 I think he was also trying to phrase it in a way that makes sense, too. We live for about 70 years, while most dogs only live to about 10 or so years (depending on breed), yet those 10 or so years we share in common with that dog are very special.
Granted, in the moment, it was probably one of the worst ways he could have phrased it, but he does deeply care about Debbie.
Worth noting that while you have a point about the god complex, the narcissism is exactly wrong. Narcissism is when you blame yourself for everything, good and bad, that happens around you. That often manifests in a way that appears to be arrogance and is also why narcissists tend to crumble so dramatically. In the context you are talking about, the viltrumites explicitly don't take responsibility for their own actions or the actions of others.
That's a good point
Narcissists take credit for everything good (even if they had nothing to do with/minimal role in it) and blame everything bad on others. Having worked w diagnosed narcissists before have to disagree with them taking credit for bad things, I have never seen a narcissist take credit for something they perceive as negative, unless they are trying to use it to minimize their role in something even worse or to make someone else look bad in comparison.
@@mechadonia You might want to reread what I wrote.
"Taking credit for" is not the same thing as blame. When you observe (relatively) normal people who have done something wrong, they generally try to sweep it under the rug. Unless someone insists upon pointing fingers, they won't start to point fingers.
Narcissists however start pointing fingers immediately for the smallest things that go wrong. They appear desperate for someone else to take the blame, almost like they assume they will end up with the bag if someone else doesn't.
Additionally, "diagnosed narcissist" is almost an oxymoron. You are guaranteed to be talking about a very tiny minority of the group, specifically the ones who are less capable of avoiding being diagnosed... Which likely means their manipulation skills are sub-par relative to the rest of the narcissistic group.
@@SirSpence99 Taking credit for something, literally means claiming personal responsibility for it. Using the phrase to refer to anything else is definitionally incorrect. For example, bringing up something and blaming someone else is not “taking credit”.
And narcissists do not always HAVE to point things out, they will often “sweep things under the rug” when convenient as well.
Whether or not a narcissist is detectable is irrelevant to my argument. If a narcissist is crafty enough to avoid diagnosis, they still operate the same way as those that are diagnosed although in a more subtle way. The behavior and thought process are exactly same, only manifesting to different extremes. This is the nature of narcissistic personality disorder.
There is nothing about narcissism that inherently contradicts diagnosis so “diagnosed narcissist” is not oxymoronic in any manner. Being able to avoid diagnosis does not make you any more or less of a narcissist, nor does narcissism mean you are more intelligent or more successful at manipulation. There are stupid narcissists and smart narcissists, manipulative narcissists and combative narcissists. When you imply that the REAL narcissists would never be diagnosed, you are basing that off of a false stereotype of what most people believe a narcissist is.
Anyways. My point is that narcissist are concerned about ego preservation above all. They are self centered will try to defend their image and seek validation from others to affirm it. The manner in which they will accomplish this varies greatly and is not confined to “they do x but not y, always”.
@@mechadonia ...I don't believe your story anymore. You have demonstrated you don't listen and would rather substitute your own definition into my language even when I've told you very clearly, with an explanation that I'm not using that definition (and disagree with it.)
You appear to have an extremely strong motivation to spread nonsense, with, in my view, the intention to protect the ego of narcissists. Strange.
I think it is even mentioned that Evil Mark's actually do get their Viltrumite awakening sooner.
Just a suggestion. The reason we see so many is because Angstrom is a terrible scientist who goes for confirmation bias and thus focuses on Invincible from universes where he went evil.
If he was a good scientist, it'd be close to 50/50 of Mark's being good or evil
In conics they explained it simple.
'Our' Mark just didn't have his 'snap' moment.
The moment he truly lose something.
The moment Viltrumite in him truly kick in.
He is just lucky to be good, not by choice.
You forget that viltrum actually has better tech than earth. They would actually help it very temporarily and at the cost of millions
In my opinion there is many good invincibles in the multiverse didn't become evil. The probability of invincible becoming evil has higher probability than invincible not becoming evil. Assuming the multiverse operates based on many world theory.
Damn the major spoiler at the end… chill!
whoooooa there buddy, huge spoiler right out of left field at the end there lmao
Eeyup kinda a dick move
its not a god complex or narcissism when you are a viltrim and compare to a human. they are as far above humans as humans are above ants
Biological advantages do not make you inherently better than anyone. It doesnt matter if ur strong, weak, live a bazillion years or a week, we can all feel and suffer and we all die just the same and one day we all will be no more, even as a species, and the universe itself does not care. Thats not a bad thing. We are the only ones able to make each others lives better, and Invincible is all about understanding that. Hes a god compared to many other species but that doesnt make them any less deserving of empathy. That one bug race is fragile and lives only six months but treating them as lesser for it is totally pointless cruelty. Theres no reason to race to biological supremacy bs specially when it comes to other sentient species.
Yea no... Thing is.. ants don't talk we can't communicate with them, we dont even know if ants are capable of thought or conciousness at all (most think know but there is a chance)
That's a real good essay! No offside guesses, just analyse of plot and characters. Love it, seriously, its great and explains the issue very well
Viltrumite empire and their philosophy is metaphor for how empires in real life thought
There are a lot of elements not taken into account. While authoritarian, Viltrum in our timeline is still fairly patient. So in others maybe not, maybe there is no scourge virus so they opted to conquer outright - where one Omni Man said fuck it and just obliterated the planet.
Also, probably there are more good Marks, just that they didn't survive the "Think Mark!" beat up.
To be fair it's not too hard to imagine the Viltrumite way of thinking when compared to the way of thinking Humans have over any other animals. Hell even over other humans at certain cases.
I can't have a conversation with a cow
@@blober5533 so just because the Cow is physically unable to express it's suffering it's fine for us to abuse it. Pretty close to Viltrumite logic. Might makes right after all
@@blober5533 Besides think of what humans/governments do to other humans: Slavery, Imperialism,War exploitation of the poor etc
@@blober5533 So, you're criteria is if you can have a conversation with something?
@@nicholasoneal1521 more or less. If it speaks it thinks even if it's in a different language
I love the comics, never really thought this deep into it. Thanks for the insight!
I think also our Nolan cared more about them, more then other Nolans did not. it show where he went to marry, and make a whole new family. where the other ones don't, and come back to earth to finish the job
My theory is that it’s not that mark is naturally evil in all universes but he just doesn’t survive the fight against omniman in the other universe and the ones that do get corrupted
This could be a great comic book arc and season. All the various reasons he turns evil or the one or two reasons he stays good.
It's actually in the first episode of the second season. He tells Eve that he can't let her hurt anyone else. Meaning the people who joined them were viewed as people and the ones that didn't were viewed as terrorists. So when he and Omniman were killing the resistance, he didn't see it as being the bad guy. I'm also going to guess that his mom wasn't in the picture in a lot of these situations. So with just omniman influence it wouldn't be hard to see why they turned out that way. Omniman might have also told him earlier about viltrumites. Meaning he wouldn't form the connection with heroes as universe one Mark would.
id like to believe in most universes Deborah didnt convince Nolan in the baseball scene which lead to Nolan to implant his ideas earlier on.
You also have to consider the incredible odds they are against with Mark choosing to be a hero. Mark Prime chooses the hardest, albeit the most rewarding path any other Mark had before them. Mark in other universes has the might of other Viltrumites behind him in other universes. Maybe even some heroes who turncoat. Anything is possible with infinite universes.
0:26 your theories are on point here imo
That was genuinely a great video wow
lets not forget that in the first season nolan talked to mark in possibly the worst time
they were stressed from fighting and he just saw his father kill the immortal which made him defensive and not ready for reason
In most universes he doesn’t call Debbie a pet.
Mark grew up associating his sense of self with being like his Dad, as he idolized him and was expected to get his powers. Because our Mark didn't reach those expectations for most of his life, he grew up humble. Growing up like that is the reason he doesn't feel above humanity and is the reason he rejects Viltrumite's god complex. The fact that Debbie raised him more than Nolan solidified this mindset even more, as Nolan didn't prioritize his seemingly human son.
This is just a theory, but I think most Marks got their powers in early childhood. This would mean that a young Mark would see himself as special, and thus would probably become arrogant. Having powers at an early age, Nolan would also be far more involved in Mark's childhood, and would likely validate Mark's arrogance by comparing it to how other Viltrumites think, putting him above humans even more. Again this is just a theory, but being raised like that would explain why other Marks are self righteous narcissists.
Overall, I think our Mark being an anomaly comes down to just being a late bloomer, and everything else about him and his upbringing stems from that.
It was kind of implied that the "pet" comment is what brought Mark back, I could imagine that other Omniman versions just not say that or the topic is approached later after the turn when teaching Mark how to deal with his extended lifespan.
I think it’s important to note that Armstrong said Mark simply joined forces with his dad not that he was necessarily evil. They were only eliminating those that stood against them, if everyone just submitted there would had been a lot less deaths. Viltrumites weren’t complete savages, they were able to be diplomatic. Omni
Man told Marc if they submitted it would benefit mankind on the long run which was true. Also let’s not forget it was thraggs idea for them and humans to co exist on earth, if he was truly evil he could had gotten rid of Omni man and Marc regardless of them being decendants of the previous King. We also saw how most of them quickly adapted to living on earth even falling in love with humans and starting their own families.
Well… That depends on your definition of “long run”. In the grand scheme it would doom humanity. For the first few centuries things would be improved, ignoring the tyrant enslavement, but then our world would be depleted of all its resources and effectively reduced to a barren rock.
I reckon marks powers in some universes would have sprouted earlier, making him easier to convince
In Marks situation at the beginning of the story, turning evil is by far easier, safer and much less painful than remaining good, so it's very logical that the dark outcomes are far more numerous.
I saw a really good head canon that the universes where he doesn’t join or convince his father to stop are the ones who die in that fight
Mark didn't make that hit while playing baseball, gets low self-esteem, Nolan pumps him up by telling him how great viltrum is compared to earth from an early age. Now marks a team player.
I think a big part of why mark gets evil is because omni man wins the fight against the league without being out of commission. Which lets him influence mark greatly during his arc of learning how to use his powers.
An interesting read on the subject of authoritarianism is Erich Fromm's 'Escape From Freedom'.
As you noted the Viltrumites regard themselves as part of the empire, not as individuals at all. In doing so they take on the strength of the empire at the loss of individuality, and the personal responsibility that comes with being an individual.
Like humans, Viltrumites love power but hate responsibility.
I've always thought that one of the reasons why there's so many Evil Marks compared to only 1 known Good Mark is through attrition. At every turn, Mark makes the Good choice despite horrific bodily harm. He fights Battle Beast, he fights the Reaniman, he fights Nolan. And he lives through it all. What if other Good Marks are killed at any other point when Prime Mark lifted? If BB finished the job, if the reaniman was a bit stronger, if Nolan was a bit more ruthless? Our Mark made it through all those bottlenecks
I think another reason he's good in this universe is he has always wanted to be like his father, the father he grew up watching was a hero. He idolized and dreamed of being that version of his father. Even after learning of his purpose, He got to see that more of the "good" side of his father on Thraxa. Couple that with his mother's influence, and lessons learnt from the Thraxan mentality, his character development is going to be one hell of a ride.
Also the theme of you're not your father keeps coming up, but his father has so far in season 2, rejected the Viltromite way of life and chose death instead. Mark Has made similar choices when fighting his father in season 1 and Annissa in season 2.
Levy makes a comment saying Debbie joins them in most realities. In fact the Mark who paralyzed Eve I believe said he will have her watched by his mom. If both of Mark’s parents are on team evil then it’s over.
I always knew it was Debbie, even our mark was going to turn out evil when he defied his mom ("make me") and Debbie instantly made him touch ground. That moment was pivotal for our Mark.
I think another component is the fact that Nolan referred to Debbie as a "pet". I feel like until that point Mark was almost swayed to the Viltrumite purpose.
In a way, it's a surprisingly... accurate way to describe his feelings. Just like how a dog's lifespan is a mere fraction of ours, a human's lifespan is a mere fraction of a Viltrumite's. This timeline's Nolan actually does deeply care for Debbie, but this was just a mixture of "good mentality, worst phrasing" and "not wanting to admit the fact he's gotten soft with her" that led to it being so horrible on the surface.
It is not like we have that reliable a narrator confirming what is actually happening. Levy's alternates did not even have the portal creation powers, so may just be seeing what is publicly stated at a similar point in time of events when ever our Cecil tries to get Mark to say he will work for the Empire. While a few are clearly portrayed as evil, most may simply be acting along to stall for time or minimize casualties. It might even be more common that Nolan accepts what they want is to do something other than the original plan earlier (given he had written multiple books on how to defend against empire it was clearly not a new thought), but knows needs keep up appearances because directly opposing the empire is near certain death for Earth's population now, but with more Human/Viltrumite children born over time could lead to Earth having a defense.
There are a few more explanations obviously. In one universe, Robot is still in his original body, so it meant he didn't make that deal in exchange for a new body . And that again changed the course of events.The only obvious thing is that what triggered Mark's change happened before that moment. So he probably didn't even fight Omni Man in the other universes
There is no ‘most universes’ because there a infinite universes, that is like saying “most of my life” but you are immortal
Others pointed this out, but to simplify it, Mark has Nolan's power but Debbie's heart.
Those are the universes where Mark didn't get laid in time.
Why would you drop that spoil at the end wtf
It definitely helps that joining the viltrunites is the path of least resistance. Good mark has way more fights against viltrunites. The one on thraxa, the fight with conquest, getting his ass beat by Anissa twice. The viltrumite war, including a fight with thragg right by the sun.
A good mark having all those fights increases the chances they get killed.
i think its marks mother, most omni man (men?) probably didnt stay around for long, caring more about mark as another viltrumite and not really about her but in this dimension she managed to actually make a difference
As I see it Mark wasnt changed it was omni-man who did.
This was the only omni-man that wasn't willing to kill Mark so he attacked Mark more mercifully and that enabled Mark to resist him.
The change in omni-man is also much much much bigger he has betrayed everything he believed in part of which was that if Mark doesn't join the viltrum empire he must die, another good example is that this is the only omni-man that betrayed the viltrum empire in all the other universes he is fighting with Mark or Mark is dead.
am i wrong for thinking that mark is geniunely being stubborn cus i think the viltrum empire brings more pros than cons
Imagine being a good person and being told that there are only a small number of good alternate versions of you in multiverse, while all the other infinite versions of yourself are evil dictator-conquerors, maniacs, murderers, etc
If I were Mark, I would wonder why the overwhelming number of my alternate versions have become evil and what if I was destined to become evil too?
That fight between Mark and his father seems to play out like a sort of multiversal poker game with both sides going all in. Generally, neither Mark or Nolan ever die because Mark isn't strong enough to kill his father and Nolan wasn't really trying to kill Mark to begin with, just teach him a lesson. There could be a few universes here and there where Nolan does go a bit too far with the beating when Mark puts up too much resistance though.
The important observation though is that the battle is one of philosophies just as much as it is a battle of fists, and that's what allows Mark to win in some universes. He can't win in regards to brute force, but he can win the argument, which invalidates the very thing his father is fighting for and trying to teach him. Basically, the fight has two primary ways of turning out: Either Nolan beats a sense of power being the only thing that is important into Mark, or Mark convinces him that there's other things that matter in life than just power, changing him in the process instead.
My guess as to why there's so many more evil versions of Mark than good ones is because of the nature of the fight itself. Nolan isn't just strong physically, he's strong mentally. Beating him with fists is pretty much impossible for Mark, and winning the argument is going to be almost just as hard. It makes sense that in most universes Mark just can't do it, and so in the universes that he survives he tends to turn out evil. The Mark that the series follows, whether in the Comic universe or in the Show, happens to be one of those rare Marks that managed to do what was nearly impossible and win the argument, preserving his humanity in the process.
I think there are probably a lot of other good Marks, BUT this might be a situation similar to the survivor ship bias. If Mark is good in another universe it is unlikely that he crossed paths with an Angstrom Levy (at least in a way that either of them would explicitly remember). Even if they met at some point, the memory wouldn’t be that important for the particular Angstrom because in this case Mark would not traumatize him. The bad other-universe Marks overshadow the good other-universe Marks.
Honestly I feel like it wouldve made sense if Debbie being in Mark's life was considered really uncommon for most universes. Like, what if the odds of her surviving the pregnancy were like a million to one? That way, the vast majority of Marks are raised by just Nolan, and that basically seals the deal on Mark eventually siding with the Viltrumites
Only reason this universe's mark did not join Omni Man was because Nolan said his mother to be a pet. Only if Omni Man had thought of a better response
I think what people forget about an "infinite" multiverse, is that it is infinite. There is an infinite amount of evil Marks as well as an infinite amount of good ones. It's unlikely the good Marks are causing issues that make ripples in the multiverse and get them to be noticed. Levy, looking to help other Levy's likely noticed a lot of people were under attack by evil Marks and would typically go to those universes.
Every universe where Omniman doesn't call Debbie a pet.
I think Nolan is a big part too. I don't think there are too many realities where Nolan takes no for an answer, so good Marks probably don't live very often.
I think how he convinces him involves helping them in the show Omni man says they have all this advanced technology to save people. Maybe that’s what ultimately convinced him
Remember the first episode of season 1 where mark rebels against his mom with a "Make me (obey you)". And his mom brings him down to earth. I think this is because this debby stood up to omniman, a god-like being, in that universe, which should be an insanely rare event given Nolan's dominating nature.
That was the moment when Mark was stopped from becoming evil.
Anyone else thinks it looks like a weird ass Hentai Comic when Mark is in that machine?
I think this makes it more of an accomplishment for our Mark because he actually had the balls to stand up to his father. The others just accepted it and joined him like weaklings
Mark let himself get pushed around by just about everyone, even Immortal so he is a weakling too 😂
@@yep1486 not physically, mentally they all have essentially the same strength its the determination that makes them different
@@yep1486 you can be strong not just in body
Most marks in alternate dimensions were drafted, traumatized, tortured, imprisoned ect
I want to type this first, then see if it's also said in the video.
It seems really not that complicated.
A combination of two things:
- Human lifespans are too short for them to be significant. Basically the idea that there's no value in an exceedingly temporary life, so someone living as long as a Viltrumite would look at humans like we look at mayflies.
- The life of humans could feasibly be better as members of a galactic empire, even the Viltrumite empire. The ones that die are mayflies anyway, and the ones that survive will get the benefits of the skyrocketed technology and everything, including a longer lifespan.
Those pairing together to basically allow Mark to "turn evil" and join Nolan, out of genuine benevolence.
For Mark, and maybe also for Nolan in some universes, it's not about power.
The best reason to explain why Mark is evil in different realities is because in those realities he did not have Debbie as his mother, Art told Debbie how she saved the world in her own way by raising Mark how she did, and during Debbie and Omni Mans date in France or whatever with the dragon, they hint that they almost weren’t together
Hmm. In most of these same universes where Mark goes Evil. He still has his mom, and Eve is also Present as well most of the time.
Perhaps the anomoly here is William?
Maybe the alternate versions of Mark are only separated by what day he got his powers. Maybe if he'd gotten his powers the day before or the day after, everything would have been different.
Is there infinite universes in invincible or just alot?
It's fun to think that there is a very good chance that most marks who stand against Nolan do, in fact, get killed. So it makes me think that the rare aspect of this earth isn't that Mark is good, but that Nolan would betray the Viltrumite empire.
If omniman didnt call Debbie a pet, he may have convinced him
I mean if you are the strongest being in a planet, you mostlikely become Homelander.
Actually, Eve will live longer than Mark because of her ability to return from death every single time.
Oh God, in 300000 years will she hook up with the Immortal?
So you're saying viltrumites are right and based?
According to Darwin, I guess so?
I think our Mark is more of an exception than the rule, making him more special and helps to differentiate him from other Marks.
In one Universe Nolan never called Debbie a pet. And Mark turned evil
Debbie 100% has something to do with it. As levy said in every other universe, she joins them. She was probably forced to but its not out of the question
Wild spoiler at the end. Could've done with a warning.
This would make some sense… if they didn’t break the multiverse the instant they introduced it.
It’s stated “there’s an infinite number of realities” immediately followed by “in most of them, Invincible and Omni-Man team up.”
Infinite implies there’s a never ending stream of universes that goes on forever- if 1 exists, 2 exist- if 2 exist, 8 exist… if 1,000 exist then 1,000 alternate universes exist for each of those 1,000, etc. so how can “most” tie into infinite? If it never ends, then the term “most” has no baring over it, since that single word means a majority.
If you’ve got 10 cars, most are broken, a minimum of 6 cars need to be broken, and 4 still work.
If you have unlimited cars, and most are broken, how many work? Infinite do, and infinite don’t. Giving you a permanent 50/50 split.
Following this, if there’s infinite universes, then in 50% of those infinite universes, Mark is evil- BUT in the other 50% of infinite, he remains good. That means there’s an infinite number of Mark’s that protected Earth, betrayed Earth, we’re killed by Omni-Man, killed Omni-Man, basically if there was a 0.0001% chance of something happening here, it had a 100% chance of happening elsewhere in the multiverse.