What LDS women want - in the wake of a controversial ‘priesthood power’ speech
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
- A decade after the Ordain Women movement within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints made national news, another feminist issue is getting lots of media attention.
During a March 17 meeting to celebrate the creation of the church’s Relief Society, J. Anette Dennis, first counselor in the faith’s global women’s organization, declared that “there is no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has so broadly given power and authority to women.”
Dennis went on to say that “other faiths ordain women to roles like priest or pastor, but those individuals represent a small minority when compared to the total number of women within their congregations.”
In the Utah-based church, all women “who choose a covenant relationship with God in the House of the Lord are endowed with priesthood power directly from God.”
It is a sentiment that has been expressed previously by Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the church’s governing First Presidency, and by Sheri Dew, a former counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency. But when the church posted Dennis’ quote on Instagram, a flood of responses from women ensued - more than 15,000 comments. And, in an unusual acknowledgment, the church’s social media team promised to share the “thoughts, feelings and experiences” with the faith’s leaders.
On this week’s show, discussing this speech, the overwhelming response it generated and the role of women in the church, are Julie Hanks, a Latter-day Saint therapist in Utah, and Amy Watkins Jensen, a Latter-day Saint middle school humanities teacher in Oakland, California, who created the Women on the Stand letter-writing campaign in the wake of women’s leaders being removed from the stand at worship services in the Bay Area.
I have heard panels of ex-Mormon women discuss this, and here is a panel of active Mormon women discussing it. It would be wonderful to get those two groups together to share their experiences.
I disagree. With everything here.
Something I have noticed with friend and family church members is that when asked about certain doctrine or aspects of the church, women’s will say, “ I’ll have to ask my husband about that.” As if they think their husbands have a better grasp of how the church works and what doctrine means. It seems ingrained in women that men know better. That’s just an observation of something that bugs me. Knowledge is power and the church doesn’t really want women to have power. The nebulous idea of “women have power in the church” is no more than words, the power in leadership and decision-making doesn’t really exist.
Thanks Julie and Amy for your very well articulated discussion. I too hope there will be more visitability and more opportunities for women leaders to be partners at higher levels in the church and in more church headquarters level decisions. This will only make the church better. As Amy mentioned, in an ironic way Sis Dennis’ instagram post did create an temporary avenue for LDS Women’s voices to reach higher levels. An avenue lacking in the current church structure. For example there is not a female leadership chain between the stake and the general international level so women’s voices and input cannot flow up in an effective, natural, way.
One issue that gets me every 6 months is I had hoped that shuffling the format of general conference would have led to more women speakers and speaking time, but this hasn’t been the case. I expected they would give us at least one women to speak in each session, but only three women spoke at last conference over 5 sessions.
Even though the relief society does special events like the Relief society birthday devotional or BYU Women’s Conference those are not equivalent substitutes, as the BYUWC content is not accessible with out a fee, it is not available remotely or internationally, or translated in to as many languages as the LDS general conference. Especially when you consider that general conference speeches become teaching material for subsequent lessons, and ensign magazine materials, versus the BYU womens conference is not, the trickle down effect is a multiple church meetings and content starved of women voices and perspective.
It’s definitely time to shed inherited beliefs and ideas that harm. They really need to make the priestess-hood, for they are priests and priestesses of the most high. Do it before it looks like they have Heavenly Mother tied up in a closet somewhere. The saints are already calling for Mom. Brigham wouldn’t do it. But Joseph would. The Saints will know their Heavenly Mother when they meet their Priestess-hood. Different, but the same. Joseph’s Mormonism and Restoration had some cool, brave stuff like this.
Parmis Autres Choses 😲 Hashtag Git ‘er Done 😘
Polygamy looks kinda bad, but polygamy without a priestess-hood, is a dream killer
I wish the speech patterns of the participants would be less hesitant. At least no primary voices here, but you all knew what you thought about this issue before you came here.
One of the requirements of being leaders of a movement is to speak with confidence. Personally I think all the initially hemming and hawwing in response to questions is a deferential dog whistle to leadership that the men are not going to be dealing with confident women. It's the fallback position when primary voices have been called out.
Confidence sounds like shrillness to fragile egos, but that's the men's problem not women's. A lot of hesitation is an unconscious habit Mormon women have to placate the men. The women may think it indicates thoughtfulness, but I don't think that's what the leaders are hearing. They are hearing fear.
I'd like to hear more assertiveness. Yes, I know that tone can you thrown out, but everything else has failed. Speak the way the men do : with the knowledge that there is real power behind the voice.
I agree!
It show how conditioned we were as girls. It’s really hard to break through that kind of conditioning. My daughters had to teach me that “No.” is a complete sentence. An explanation is unnecessary.
how about not always being subjected to a man? In the real world this isn't true, why must it be true in Mormonism?
Go back to your; The Church of Christ of Latter-day Saints home-making duties and make sure dinner is ready at 6pm when we men, come home from work.s And thank-you for what you do with the family unit and everything.
I would like to see the LDS faithful protecting children from the predators who made the licked cupcake analogy insisting they are responsible for their own abuse. This is meant to shame and silence victims. Jesus would insist you pluck out your tongues before harming a child, or was that a millstone drowning.. the brethern forgets easily
As we understand more about the gospel and the priesthood and the sacred role of women we see how much women actually are greatly valued. As daughters and wives are shown by fathers and husbands that, then individual woman realize it.
To quote the speakers in the podcast, your comments do not align with my lived experience and decades in the church.
What more do women want? During a meeting women give the prayers, and do the sermons (talks). There are no other churches that have the authority to ordain women. Maybe someday the Lord will authorize women to get the priesthood. but until then we will have to wait. The ability to get legal authority to marry people in civil cemeteries is not the same as a marriage authorized spiritually. My deputy sheriff grandson married his brother and his wife. But it was just a civil marriage the same as before a judge.
You just KNOW this is going to be hijacked by third wave feminism and Marxist critical theory right?
Larry and Jackie, you coukd even make the argument, "What more do MEN want?"
Men get to open or close meetings with prayer, the same as women do.
Men get to deliver sermons at sacrament meeting, baptismsl services, funerals, and stake or regional conferences, the same as women do.
Men get to pray about which people to extend callings to by revelation, the same as women do.
Men get to preside in ward and stake callings, and are called 'President', the same as women do.
Men get to be baptized and receive the gift of a member of the Godhead walking with them as a constant companion, just like women do.
Men get to receive their patriarchsl blessing from one of the Lord's seers, and learn their lineage in one of the twelve tribes of Israel, just like women do.
Men have the privilege to attend the Lord's seminaries and institutes to build their doctrinal mastery and spirituality, the equivalent of learning to read Torah to become a rabbi, just like women do.
Men get to serve the Lord by preaching the gospel as fulltime missionaries and ministers of religion, and can get sent by the Lord anywhere in the world, just like women do.
Men may serve as witnesses, guides and escorts, or as proxies in baptisms in the House of the Lord, just like women do.
Men may receive their washing, anointing and endowment in the House of the Lord, just like women do.
Men may be sealed to an eternal companion and be anointed to receive exaltation based on their faithfulness, just as women can.
Men can bear children and join with God in the divine act of creation and bringing life into the world, just as women can.
Men can have the joy of raising children in righteousness, just like women can.
Men can see dreams, visions and have revelations, just like women do.
Okay, so one of these statements is incorrect. Men can't do ALL things that women can. But 13 out of 14 ain't bad.
Love this brother lol
This is applying a worldly understanding of power and authority to the Lord’s kingdom on Earth. Those who seek authority and recognition are probably those who shouldn’t have it but that is ultimately for the Lord to decide. That is, if you believe this is the one true church with a prophet who talks with God and not just some social club.
I'm a new Relief Society teacher and a fairly new convert to the Church.
I was brought up Catholic.
As part of preparing my lesson I did some research about the founding of the Society.
Joseph Smith was a revolutionary women's liberationist by the standards of the day!
I was blown away.
Stop waiting for official authority people
God has granted it already according to Joseph Smith anyway
Smith copied the organization from the Methodists, whom he had visited many times, early on. The Methodists started the very first women's relief society in Boston in 1828. Even the so called visions, and the passionate sermons, like the King Benjamin one,in the B.O.M. were straight from them, as well as the basic ward set up.
When he and his friends were putting together their new religion they took a lot from the three big major religions, adding Freemasonry as an over lay while in Nauvoo.
Being from a Catholic background, you have probably noticed a similarity with their rites and sacraments.
Never mind, the Relief Society that the Lord instructed Joseph to form is bigger and more successful than ever. Hopefully the Methodist version still is too.
@@nicholasread5397 It is still going strong. The United Methodist Committee on Relief (Umcor) is found everywhere in the world.
I can understand some of these opinions. And I certainly don’t agree with some of these views either. and some just are not doctrinally correct. I as a male could get on line and marry people but I cannot marry them for eternity. And you know what, that’s ok. I am not less in the sight of god. Having those keys does not make me better of a individual
I look at so many of the comments here and my mind spins. I'm a member of the Church in Australia and have either worked, lived in or visited 50 countries where I've attended the wards, stakes and temples in these nations. The mysogynist church so many people are describing here is not the church I have seen anywhere, at any time, anywhere in the world.
I asked my wife of 27 years, an outspoken convert sister who preaches from the pulpit, serves in the temple and teaches seminary, if she has seen the church described here anywhere at any time. She hasn't either.
I asked our sons and daughters, raised in the church, some of whom served missions, stayed active through the YSA dating minefield, what they've seen. None of us, with a combined 163 years church experience, have witnessed this male dominated church, especially when we consider what the Lord teaches through revelation in the temple, the very House of the Lord.
So I have to question the validity of all the ax grinding going on here.
What church do you attend? It's not the one we've seen in 50 countries with over 163 years' experience in it.
I can only think it's as Taylor Swift tells us: haters gonna hate. It looks like too many saints are eager to correct the Lord, tell His chosen officers how to run His church, and volunteer to steady the ark without being invited to.
It looks like too many are criticizing their neighbor for having dirty laundry hanging on the line, not realizing it's their own windows that are dirty.
I wonder how many making disparaging comments went to the temple this week.
Membership in the Lord's church is like the ancient temple in Jerusalem: there's an outer wall, then inside is an outer courtyard, then an inner courtyard, and right in the center is where the higher and holier things are revealed to those who pay the price of devotion to learn them.
People who carry on about gender inequality in the church are spiritually beyond the outer wall randomly lobbing arrows over the parapets, or at best inside the church but drifting around in the outer courtyards, not really understanding or observing closely enough.
Those who worship in the center know how equal men and women are. They see how the priesthood isn't just a man thing. They know the Family Proclamation makes clear how the Lord sees every Adam and every Eve as equal in the blessings that come from covenant keeping.
So when I see people making this claim about inequality, it tells me how close to the center they are, or rather, how distant.
It makes me wonder if what they feel comes from an attitude of pride and ingratitude. It makes me wonder if they have come from the premortal realm wonderfully equipped to fight the good fight, to speak up against evil, to shake the world, yet all those gifts and energy gets hijacked by Satan, so instead of fighting against Babylon and building Zion, they instead turn against their own house, puppets to a cause, but one that has no resolution because the enemy they're fighting simply doesn't exist.
Or maybe it's a regional or cultural thing. Maybe these are good saints, with sincete grievances, who do see inequality in how leaders operate in their home ward or stake. Maybe they're describing unrighteous dominion at a local level, then imagine it exists everywhere.
I've seen some of that. In fact it's a testament to the truthfulness of Christ's gospel that it still works even when administeted by volunteer lay-ministers, buffoons and people who can at times make you scratch your head and wonder. Men AND women.
Then the Lord calls YOU to serve, and you find that despite best intentions you too can be an asshat.
So we laugh and move on. Because if we can't endure each other, we won't make it through the furnace that's going to burn the tares. And if we're already acting and talking like an enemy of the Lord's house, we shouldn't be surprised how it ends for us.
As President Oaks shared in the October 2023 General Conference, we will end up in a place where we can comfortably abide the standards required to live there.
As President Nelson has pleaded, think celestial and be peacemakers.
If we burn our time and burn our talents trying to burn the leaders of the Church, we're inviting a lot of fire into our lives, along with weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth. So well done, you've delivered yourself to hell.
The problem about having been beguiled is it's so subtle that it always feels like your cause is right. It's gentle. It's deliberate. It's twisted.
So this video isn't uplifting or correct. It's a bonfire of vanity and a rallying call from blind guides to a battle that doesn't exist. Trying to divide the house is NOT how we build Zion. From such turn away. We know where this road ends.
Be careful, saints. And be careful to all you wolves in sheep's clothing who make these videos or troll the comments section seeking to make all (wo)men miserable like unto yourselves. You're mimicking somebody else, and following his playbook. Play stupid games = win stupid prizes.
No one can see the Father and live, God is NOT an exalted man from another Planet, And Jesus talks about Hell more than anyone else in the Bible..I can go on and on! Mormonism is FALSE! Please repent (change your way of thinking) and trust in the one who can save you from the wrath of God for rejecting His Holy plan. I am saved through Faith and Grace given freely to me by Christ lest anyone can boast. It's not after all anyone can do because we can't do anything except present our unholiness to God. We who are saved are IN Christ and are protected from His wrath. Jesus paid my fine for breaking God's laws so I am free. God is the one who keeps us, we can not do anything on our own. READ THE BIBLE not the book of Mormon, It IS False! Paul warns us about other Gospels and Mormons believe in a false one. Love you all! I would not waist my time writing this if I didn't care about you.
You go into a Starbucks, and you want a flat white, but the person next to you orders an Americano, the person behind you orders a mocha cappuccino. You screw your nose up at what they are drinking, because you love your flat white and think everyone else must be crazy. It's easy to miss the point that you all agree on liking coffee, and you have more in common than different.
In the end, we will all receive the glory and inheritance that we can most comfortably abide.
Jews who believe only the Old Testament but reject the New Testament will be rewarded for how well they used the light and truth they let in to their lives, not for how badly they lived truths their culture prevented them from reading. The Jews will have a final chance to know their Messiah soon.
Christians who believe the Old and New Testaments but selectively follow the commandments will be rewarded for how obedient they were to the light and truth they were exposed to and had the chance to embrace.
Christians who believe the Old and New Testaments of Christ, as well as other revealed testaments of Christ (like The Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, General Conference talks), but selectively keep the covenants they have made with the Lord, will be rewarded for how obedient they are to the light and truth they have.
But whatever we believe, if we follow Christ we must stop bickering about sects and link arms in the bigger fight.
We must stop telling others what they don't believe, as if we know their hearts and minds, and as if all the ignorant stereotypes are true.
We just don't have the time to waste on all that. We have a fallen world to save, and a collapsing society to protect against an enemy that isn't bothering to hide on the fringes anymore.
We are stronger together whether Jews, Samaritans or Gentiles. Bigotry and ignorance help no-one.
@@nicholasread5397 You are so wrong at a lot of your points. The Jesus of Mormonism does not exist! Jesus IS God in the flesh! “Behold, a virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel” (which being interpreted is, “God with us”). Matthew 1:23 John 1:14 says: He IS God, not a God. There is only one God in existence! The Lord, the King of Israel and the One Who saves and frees us from sin, the Lord of All, says, “I am the first and I am the last. There is no God besides Me. Read Isaiah 44:6-8. Jesus said: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Do you know who I Am is? I am IS GOD! John 8:58 Jesus also said "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Revelation 22:13 You have been blinded!
J.Smith was a false Prophet! John was the last Prophet! "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it" (Luke 16:16).
You believe in a false religion that is Works Based. We can not Keep The Law! Jesus is the only one that kept it, That is why He is the pure and spotless lamb that takes away our sins. He is the substitutionary death in our place. PLEASE Turn to the real Jesus in the Bible. Not your fake made up one the you believe in.