Unrelated, but I love in the beginning how the woman says to the doctor, “I have a baby in me.” And he smiles at her and says, “Congratulations.” That was so heartwarming to me.😊
People often seriously underestimate the strength, determination, resourcefulness and understanding that Down’s sufferers have. With the right love and support they are capable adults in a high functioning society. I’ve known a Downs woman all my life. After leaving school she was given a job in our local supermarket, helping out at the checkouts. Over the years she worked up to supervisor, all while also helping to care for her elderly parents. She’d been a highly respected part of our community. After her parents died and she reached retirement herself she went into a care home. There, she was an avid support for the carers helping out with many duties around the home including her favourite pastimes…cooking and gardening. She sadly passed away in her sleep aged 72, and was missed by many.
It differs on a case by case basis. One person's Downs' syndrome is not the same as another's. Some people with the condition are able to take care of themselves but other's are not. The mom wouldn't have just been granted Power of Attorney just because the daughter has Downs, Barbara would've had to be evaluated by an expert or experts and declared unfit to take care of herself.
@@shootingcomet082 Totally. I’ve known and worked with many Downs children and adults in my lifetime. They are no different to every other human being…UNIQUE in their own way. That’s what can make having someone in your life with special needs so enriched and rewarding. All given that they are brought into this world by parents or care givers who are prepared to be there with them every step of the way and encourage them whatever their capabilities are. Tragically, many with special needs globally, are not. My thoughts and prayers are always with these poor souls that need our help.
WHOA, SHE LIVED TO BE 72?! I was a caregiver to a woman with Down’s Syndrome who only lived to be 54. She had dementia and eventually couldn’t speak or eat about a year before she died. It was heartbreaking. This woman you’re talking about is so blessed to live that long. Most people with Down’s Syndrome don’t live past 60.
It's definitely a messy situation. While I understand the mother's side here, seeing Barbara getting pulled away screaming broke my heart. My brother and I are both on the spectrum, and I know how bad the infantilizing can get, I can't imagine being in her shoes
I’m disabled have been my whole life, I have slight brain damage when it comes to judgment around social situations. I can learn I just take longer. Anyway it’s nothing like autism though I sometimes relate and it makes me wonder. But I totally get what you mean about the infantilizing (sp) It’s so annoying sometimes. Sometimes it’s merited when my oxygen is low yea I’m not gonna understand what the heck you are saying but it drives me crazy when people talk to me in a high pitched voice like I’m 3( I may be short, but on my chart it tells you exactly how old I am) and I don’t have any severe mental problems that would prevent me from understanding when you are treating me like a child. That being said I can sometimes be a hypocrite and I do it to others and I have to catch myself and remind myself I hate it when people do it to me, and that they probably are smart enough to know when people are treating them different even if it doesn’t seem like it.
@@jessymonster she thought her baby might die, and was getting a surgery done against her will, do you really think that's not an appropriate reaction??? I don't have kids but that would be a pretty terrifying situation to me
@@missy9088that's not necessarily true, she loves her daughter and wants her to live but her subconscious is breaking down and in the way back of her mind.. she doesn't think she can do it anymore. Ultimately if she didn't get the surgery done. The daughter would die. So the mom ultimately thought of her daughters well being
It's one of those situations that you couldn't possibly understand unless you're in it. I understand wanting to demonize the mother, but she's going through a normal human emotion. It's difficult caring for a child with special needs. She loves her daughter and loves that baby too, she's just also well aware of the toll it's going to take on her and her daughter's life. She chose to prioritize her daughter's life and there's nothing wrong with that. The baby survived so now she'll just have to play with the hand God dealt her. Life isn't black and white and morality isn't either.
I completely understand the mom's choices. I can't be mad at the daughter, but it's so frustrating that she doesn't and/or can't comprehend how hard this will be.
I agree. My two boys went to Pre-K with a sweet little girl who had Downs Syndrome. They are all grown and their friend went on to have a healthy baby boy as an adult. So I am alittle biased because of personal experience.
You can’t force someone to do anything if they refuse. She’s an adult. She had a say. I’m special needs and I’d never allow anyone to make a medical decision that I didn’t consent to
You have to feel for both Barbara and her mother in this episode. The mother has a lot on her plate and the thought of adding a baby to an already complicated situation was too much for her as a woman over 40. I am sure she was happy the baby survived and terrorfied at the same time.
amen . its disgusting . i have a disability too . our disability doesnt mean we are not capable . we may need help but it doesnt mean we should be talked down to .
@Loserkid420 is she supporting herself? Living by herself? If she cannot take care of her baby, then it also becomes her mother's responsibility. Then she has all the right to have a saying.
I don't have kids so I wouldn't know. But when the mom said she can't raise another baby, it's so real. I can totally feel sorry for the mom. The face she made at the end... It breaks my heart.
I COMPLETELY understand this, THIS!!!!! people don’t understand the pressure care takers face, like parents age and die and not everyone will be there to care for you especially when you have special needs like your parents or family will. The patient does not understand this
@@NIkki-ox1ej yes. This is such a real issue. We’re humans. Even if we love someone, they can burn you out. I would’ve been like the mom… Is it horrible!m? Maybe but the ones judging aren’t in the same situations. :(
But at the exact same time the reality is that the person she’s caring for is their own person as well. And they have rights and feelings of their own that deserve respect and consideration. If raising a special needs child puts you in a place where you can’t care for anything or anyone else anymore then you should have the consideration to discuss that with the person and be honest in letting them know you expect them to go without reproducing for the remainder of their lives. If not at least through out the remainder of yours. Otherwise don’t have children. Spoiler alert, most children grow into adults. Adults who can likely reproduce. So that’s something that needs to be addressed.
@@tearsinmycokea lot of people disown their kids cause they dont expect them to reproduce as teenagers occasionally becuase of the financial and emotional strain that comes from having to care for a baby and how a baby even when left to the others care indirectly affects your quality of life. So i agree on being very careful when having children because if they are reliant on you and decide to have their own without consulting you.
As someone with a disability, I can understand where Barbara is coming from. When you're disabled, everyone thinks that they know what's best for you or a certain situation. This means they feel they can get rid of things of yours behind your back, do things you don't want done, and make other decisions for you. When you lash out, you're then talked down to like you're a child. I'm a fully competent adult, but this still happens. When I make a choice that someone disagrees with, they'll try to use roundabout logic to try to get me to go along with their plan or their choice. Unfortunately for them though, when I find out that they did something against my will, I'll undo what they did.
Exactly. I'm disabled as well, I was considered legally psychologically disabled at age 17. You said it very well. One of the most frustrating parts of this video was the mom saying "its like having a child that never grows up". Downs syndrome is a spectrum. While I'm sure there are some downs patients who are like that, there are also some who can live fine on their own. There's one who is practically a savant in mathematics, and teach it to college students.
Well said, I have Autism plus severe Anxiety and yes I do get help for my mental health. But now I am studying medical science which is a big achievement for myself.
For once, I’m happily surprised by the empathy and understanding in the comments. No one would wish that situation on anyone else, but you do the best with what you have.
The hard part is that mother will not only be looking after her daughter who has Down syndrome but also bringing in another child that the grandmother will mostly raise and while Down syndrome people can look after themselves they cannot do it all so they need extra care I understand both sides.
Idk why it wasn't mentioned to Barbara, but if she had died, her baby was dead too. It was stated it was too young to survive outside her. IDK why they didn't just lead with that?
I remember an episode where they told the mom the same thing and I think she had this same condition. And she was willing to risk her life for the baby. It got to the point that her body couldn't take it and the baby was born but she died on the operating table.
I can relate after seeing my husband with his sister who has cerebral palsy and a lower IQ function get pregnant when she didn't tell anyone she was dating someone, while living in a group home. My husband hates himself for stepping in and taking his niece away from my SIL. We always encourage her to be around and be apart of her life. We battled for months on what to do.
She is not wise to the manipulative ways of the world. Whoever took advantage of her naivete is actually criminal. Either the "group home" that allowed it or the "father".
my brother has down syndrome, and while i love him, i completely understand the struggle and why this women is thinking the way she is. you can’t understand unless you live the life she has
Through a friend, I knew of an elderly couple with a severely Down Syndrome child. The parents were grandparent-level old, not many years left. Their adult child also had grey hair, and he just followed them around, moved when directed, and stood there with his tongue out. Those parents knew they would soon be dead, and their DS child would have to survive without them. They'd never been able to move through their own phases of life and enjoy retirement and travel and everything else. They were trapped in a permanent cycle of caring for a toddler, but one who weighed ~90kg as their own bodies grew old and frail. I don't know whether they resented the cards that life dealt them, or whether they wouldn't change it for anything. But I do know from just looking at their faces, that their lives had been unfathomably more difficult than most people would ever know. So medical choices like in this episode would not ever be clean-cut black and white to those who live the reality every day.
Well theirs also a difference between a low function person with DS and a high functioning person with DS. The young woman in this could be taught how to function in society if the mother wasn’t so overbearing. The mother would have been able to have more of a life if she let her daughter go to those classes and maybe let her daughter get some extra help from the government or disabilities or something. It seems like the family you were talking about was low functioning and the adult child probably wouldn’t be able to learn that.
situations like what you described are exactly why i could not carry a DS baby to term. and people seldom ask, aside from the devastating effects on the parents' lives, what kind of quality of life is that for the child? imagine being in your 50s and only ever having the mental capacity of a toddler. spending decades following your parents around with your tongue out like an elderly chihuahua. having no one to turn to and no one to care for you when your parents die of old age. why would anyone choose to subject their child to that life?
I’m disabled since birth and have grown up around children (later adults) of all types and levels of disability. One thing to always remember is that it’s not a “one size fits all” thing. And especially not with Downs Syndrome. I’ve know kids with Downs who could take regular classes at school, read and write, get degrees and have great jobs. I’ve also known ones who functioned perpetually at around age 3. Some had severe medical complications. Some were the stereotypical “always happy” people think of with Downs. Others could throw tantrums you would not believe…made worse because they did not realize their own strength. Imagine the tantrum a 4 year old has when you won’t buy their favorite toy or treat on shopping day while they are tired…now imagine a 22 year old man having that same tantrum, with all the strength of his size and age. Each person is unique!
I have had to go through the whole "But I have POA" and "I don't want to have that for my family member". The whole point of the POA is to have someone make decisions if the patient is UNABLE TO MAKE DECISIONS. I just had to help a family member with this.
I think the mom was just doing what she could to save her daughter, even if that meant potentially losing the baby. But I’m glad the doctor also saved the baby. I can see both sides, and it tugs at the heartstrings to see the daughter not wanting to lose the baby.
If she lost the baby, the patient would have tortured herself for the rest of her life. She would have severe trust issues around her mother and all medical staff. I can’t imagine how damaging that would have been
This is hard situation even for a person who doesn’t have special needs. It’s like who do you decide is going to die? But, this is even more difficult because I can see how the mom feels being the caretaker for both of them.
Mother's LIVES first. As long as the fetus is inside the mother, the mother comes first!! It should be clear, without the mother, the baby won't survive or develop properly.
This really touched me I’m 29 I been in hospital all my life I’ve heard so heartbreaking things similar situation or at times worse I pray 🙏 for everyone in the world and those who have passed
It was either not do the surgery and risk losing both, or do the surgery and risk losing one. There's no clear answer, and the fact that the mother felt guilty about the decision tells a lot. It's impossibly painful to be in that situation for either of them.
@@lunawiggins8251it wasn’t really an option. The medication wasn’t a guarantee but a compromise to placate the daughter and mother. The meds probably would’ve bought them a few months. Listen to what Ava was saying in the background.
Many years ago my best friend was physically in her 30s but was mentally disabled and was only in her early teens. When she started dating her boyfriend from her day centre where I met her, her mam arranged a hysterectomy for her daughter so no accidental pregnancies. Her mam was in her late 60s and knew she couldn't take care of a baby and her daughter and boyfriend were incapable of raising a child together or even care for themselves. I agree with her mam. It would have been impossible. My best friend didn't understand having her period every month so definitely would have problems
The problem is that this woman completely understood what was going on though! Just because she has down syndrome, doesn't mean she couldn't be a good mother or couldn't make her own decisions.
That mother is evil, pure evil. Who is to say her daughter couldn’t raise that child. People who take autonomy away I thought is what cringe lord pro choice people want.
I think this could have been handled a lot better. My younger sister had down syndrome and I am one of her certified caretakers. If this were to happen to her, and I had medical power of attorney, I absolutely would go through with the surgery. I love her more than anything. But that doesn’t mean it should be made so quickly and without time for her to process. You can make the decision, and she can be upset, but I would own up making the decision and take the time to talk with her about WHY I made that decision. She didn’t take the time to have a calm conversation with her, which takes patience, but that’s just part of loving someone with down syndrome. it’s a complex situation and either way, it’s terrible, but I certainly would show my sister more compassion and respect.
Your analysis breaks down when we consider the Mother didn't even listen to or give any credence to the non-invasive treatment option, didn't even give the doctor a chance to make his case. Then admitted she didn't want the baby to the hospital worker, from what the Daughter said, her mom may have even wanted to abort the baby.....
Honestly this would be such an impossible situation. It's one of those scenarios where there is no right or wrong choice, unfortunately. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I very much disagree with how the mother handled it and strongarmed her daughter into surgery directly against her wishes, though. She should've explained in depth what was happening to her and why surgery was absolutely necessary instead of just making her get the surgery.
My son is severe special needs, and so I get it. My life has been entirely dedicated to him. I'm not sure what I'd do if another human being was added into the equation. Even if the baby came out 100% neurotypical and beautiful... It's so just much.
@@brontewcat IDK the daughter seemed pretty high functioning, the baby didn't have downs, and there are well recorded cases of down syndrome sufferers raising their children.
@@maxmccullough8548 Possibly, but from the way the mother spoke I think the daughter lived with her and she was still caring for her daughter. Also the daughter’s reaction was that of a child, not an adult. The daughter did not seem to understand that not only would she die but the baby would probably die also. I think it was pretty clear that Mum was going to play a large part in the baby’s upbringing. However, it would have been better for her to have to discussed the decision with her daughter first.
Sometimes what we think is the best isn’t what we need. As a disabled adult I really hate seeing these comments. Most times parents won’t see that they could be hurting their kids more than they help. There’s a reason why disabled people have huge life-giving up rates. Even the “non-functional” individuals can learn to be more independent. “Doing everything for them bc they can’t do it themselves”, to me is just emotional negligence. Neurotypicals usually forget that we are people too
@@lizg5692 My daughter has Down. She’s just 20 months with her whole life ahead of her, and as much as people with disabilities hate it… special needs individuals will always need someone’s aid. I refuse to have my daughter growing up thinking “Because she has special needs-she should feel disgust / put-off for someone else’s aid”
I feel so bad for that mother she was hated on by that doctor because she prioritized her daughter over the baby, it sucks that the baby could have died but it also would have died if her daughter died so she chose the option that saves her daughter and I’m very glad the baby was fine. And can we talk about their acting especially that daughter for a second I forgot it was just a show because of her scream.
I think you mean he, Barbara said her child is a boy. This is my pet peeve and I understand we live in a society that dehumanizes children, especially the unborn and by extension their parents, but if the mom wants the child and considers them to be a person, even though the law doesn't, isn't that enough to not objectify them?
People really underestimate how people with Down Syndrome can actually function. I went to the school one time and there was a janitor there who had Down syndrome and he was a fully functioning adult. He was treated as an equal member of the community and was totally independent and capable.
my best friend has ASD and he’s very high functioning. People with disabilities are capable of so much and I wish people would stop underestimating them
This is not the case with lot of people with this condition. My daughter, 20 months old have Down syndrome… we didn’t know until she was about 1 month old. Why? Most times it’s picked up right after birth. You know that “low muscle tone” that’s “apparently” so common among those with this condition? My daughter didn’t display any signs of that and other things. She’s extremely active since birth (she spent 4 months in NICU due to premature birth and an infection) But her feature have changed so drastically-you see her you couldn’t tell right away that she has it Down syndrome. So many parents don’t have it differently. Of course, my daughter has a hole in her heart due to the condition will close in 2 years, but it could have been so much worse.
This episodes does a tremendous disservice to people with DS .Sure, there are those who require a lot of support if they are low to mid functioning, but this girl is clearly high functioning. High functioning people with DS work (obviously as this young woman is an actress), marry, and have children that they successfully raise themselves.
The situation is not easy. On the one hand I understand the girl, who wants to have a "normal" life and become a mother. On the other hand, I understand the girl's mother, who at the news of the possibility that if her daughter didn't have the surgery, as the pregnancy progressed, she could die and with her the baby. As much as she doesn't want to harm her daughter and grandson, she's between a rock and a hard place...
@@omnistpagan3282 The mother of course was just afraid. People with Down syndrome are known to have heart-related health issues. A pregnancy can cause heart problems as the pregnancy progresses. The mother has decision-making power over her daughter, so she can decide on any medical treatment she wants to perform, and as much as they wanted to indulge her daughter, the mother knew the risks of a pregnancy in her daughter's adverse conditions. The woman no longer cared about the fetus. He cared more about his daughter, and the fact of wanting to have her have an abortion was not to do his daughter an injustice, but to prevent her from dying while continuing the pregnancy, even with the alternative intervention suggested by the doctors... To say that he didn't care about his daughter, or that he cared more about the fetus is outright bullshit.
I don't think poa applies in this situation. The patient clearly said no. Poa is not about taking away rights of the person in question. More about being able to make decisions if the patient is not able to make them herself
With my mom she told me that if she had to she would have aborted me. Now before you say anything, My mom was 22, working full time had her own place with my father who stayed with her until her death a week and fully mature to take care of a baby. The doctor told her that there may be some life threating issues with me and could also hurt her as well but he wasn't saying that in a nasty way but in a way that was helping my mom prepare. She was a no BS full on tell it like it is no sugar coating type of woman. Turns out that I was safe from any major issues but was born with an heart issue that still gives me trouble. But I will never ever be mad at my mom for telling me that if she had to she would have aborted. She would have aborted me if she had no other choice. She was a great woman. It only been a week since I and my dad have lost her and it still feels like she is still here.
I don't understand a woman's need to tell her own child she would have aborted her if she had had to. What was the point of saying that to you, except to let you know she once had power of life and death over you. May God forgive her her cruelty.
@@vaska1999 How was she being cruel? She was told that I had a 90 percent chance of being stillborn and she could have died as well because of it. I will never hate or blame her for thinking about aborting me. She was the only one of 13 pregnancy that my grandmother had that survived to even be full term. So i understood where she was coming from You may think she was cruel but she was not and never was cruel. I would rather have my mother be honest with me than lie to me. That only brought us closer. I also did die at only a week old by my health issues. I know that you have your options about this and that is your choice but do not EVER EVER say that my mother was cruel by thinking about and telling me that she would have aborted me.
I know she wants to keep the baby but mum's health always comes first. If she's unhealthy, chances of baby dying or having defects are so much higher. Plus if she didn't have the surgery she could die meaning baby could die. But what do I know?
My mom worked with adult special needs patients (i know, its not the same thing as downs syndrome), and this is the grayest gray area. I agree with the chisled man for the most part, but I also completely understand the mom's point of view. I helped out my mom occasionally, and if I ended up having a downs syndrome child, i dont think id be up to the task.
Oooh, complex one. Something like potentially ending a pregnancy against the wishes of the pregnant person is huge. The mother is probably doing the best she can, and she must worry about caring for her daughter and granddaughter, especially if the heart failure would have lasting effects. However, I do wonder whether there is any good solution.
My grand daughter has special needs and she's doing amazing good in school it's a joy raising her and her brother their both my heart and soul " theirs nothing I wouldn't do for them
The showrunner obviously did not consult a lawyer before authorizing the script. A medical power of attorney is revocable by the patient. If her mother had conservatorship over the daughter, or were the daughter's legal guardian beyond the age of 18 as enforced by a court order, then the mother could overrule her daughter.
I was wondering why the fact that the POA could be revoked or contested etc wasn’t addressed. My biggest complaint against the mom, aside from her completely ignoring her daughter’s wishes, is how quickly the mom decided to have the surgery done. Like she didn’t take some time like the doctor suggested to at least think about it.
I tend to believe that she does have a conservatorship or similar given the circumstances. They also spoke about legal documents and not only one document.
Actually, it is not revocable without a psych evaluation to make sure that the patient is able to make safe desicions. If a person has POA then it’s usually for a reason, in this case the patient has down syndrome and possibly failed her last psych evaluation to have legal capacity. Young people usually don’t have an assigned POA without medical reasons such as intellectual disabilites. In this case I do believe they should have had more of a discussion because she was able to consent and conceive and the mother was wrong to make a decision like that so quickly despite how against it her daughter was but it’s a TV show and the baby gets to live through the miracle of television.
I work in the field, not a hospital and it's situations like this that makes me glad I don't. My job is to keep them alive until the hospital takes over.
Just now found this show. Seems pretty good so far. Might start watching this. Wow this episode looks so good. I'm going to be checking season one out.
Power of attorney doesn't mean mom gets to make decisions willy-nilly. The patient needs to be incapacitated or declared legally unfit to make their own decisions before a POA kicks in. If this video was accurate to real life, then there could (and likely would) be a ton of adult children forcing their parents in or out of procedures just cause they're POAs. A cognizant patient would be in 100% control of their medical decisions.
Someone with Downs syndrome would be considered legally unfit to make their own medical decisions. It's more like a parent making medical decisions for young kids
I think in this case the argument was that Barbra had been declared legally unfit to make decisions by a judge (at some point in the past) because of her syndrome and so her mom was granted POA
You're thinking of POA in the sense of a non cognitively disabled person. Like how if I'm in a coma my husband would make medical decisions for me because he's my POA BUT in Barbaras case she's got Downs Syndrome it's likely the court made the Mom her permanent guardian because she's been deemed mentally unfit.
No actually that's what it means. And I don't think the mother made this decision willy-nilly. The mother probably understands the fact that a a person who has down syndrome is likely to have another child with down syndrome. If the father didn't have down syndrome, it's 50% chance. If both of them had down syndrome, it's 100% chance. And even if that child doesn't have down syndrome, the chances are she's going to have physical complications because one of their parents did have down syndrome. It's exceedingly rare that a male would be with down syndrome. Would be able to father a child. Rare not impossible. So I think the mother thought about this a lot. Because if that child is born which is likely to be very sick. Who's going to make all the complicated medical decisions? Who's going to pay for that in a country that puts profit over people? Who's going to pay for the child? Just basic needs. Who's going to want to have to make all the decisions about the child's care. The medical care, the education it's going to have to be the grandmother. Seems to me this grandmother has burnout and is exhausted.
I’ve been in Barbara’s shoes several times as an autistic man growing up and still today people think because you have what they think is a special need or disability that you don’t know I understand what’s going on when you’re situation or you’re pushed away but I mean strong with the faith of God
As someone who works in healthcare and deals with power of attorney situations regularly, it doesn't necessarily mean that the POA can just override the will of the patient if they're able to understand what's going on and vocalize what they want for themselves, we listen to the patient. Power of Attorney exists to allow a trusted person to make medical decisions for the patient IN THE EVENT that they are not capable of doing so for themself. I work on the administrative side of things but I certainly have never ignored a patient's wishes simply because they have a POA.
I thought medical power of attorney meant you could refuse medical care on someone's behalf, not order it. Could a parent with medical POA for an adult child order they be sterilized or undergo IVF against their will?
My understanding is yes. See Britney spears of all people. Her dad had POA over her (or something like it), forced her to get an iud placed and wouldn't allow it to be removed. I don't know of any cases with permanent sterilization, though.
@@madisonhoward8333 That was a conservertiship. Not Power of Attorney. It is similar. Generally Power of Attorney is for when a patient is unable or unwilling to make a decision, the person with power of attorney can make the decision on their behalf. That can range from only being able to veto a procedure to being able to do everything medically. It just depends on the case.
Right or wrong, this is not the way to talk to or deal with your disabled child. Even if they are like this girl and really can't live their own life and make life choices- they are still people and adults and should be treated with respect. If not, they will at rhe very least hate you as their parent and push you away
@@emilyhedrick2851 because of comments like this is why mothers that raise disabled children feel hopeless. They feel like they cannot share how they really feel and end up bottling everything up until they explode. There's a great percentage of caretakers of disabled people that end up depressed, suicidal and even end up killing because people that don't know what they have to go through will make them villains for sharing how they really feel about the situation. In this clip, she wasn't telling her daughter how she felt. She was sharing with another adult the hardship of raising a disabled person. It's a monumental task that will never end
Actually, I'm not even sure this is legal. Medical PoA is usually for when the patient is unable to make a decision for themselves. The daughter is still capable of making decisions, so her mother shouldn't have been able to exercise that. It may be different if the patient is mentally compromised, but the decision should still be respected.
@@elizabethkelley2559 it doesn't matter once the ink is dry, legally speaking. As in, if there wasn't a legal document giving the mother power of attorney then it would be up to the doctors to decide if the daughter really is capable or not. but once that paper exists it's not a choice anymore. mom's name is on the paper, mom gets to make the calls. deviate from that and the hospital gets sued
@@karinaashmon if the mom has power of attorney, it doesn't matter if the daughter is incapacitated or not. Power of attorney means another person can meke decisions for you at any time, regardless of what you want.
Unless she was declared legally unfit to make her own decisions this is NOT how POA works. The patient has to be incapacitated before there's a need to consult POA. This girl could think for herself and clearly make decisions on her own.
Obviously they had worked out the arrangements for the mother to have POA as, even though it wasn't shown on this clip, the mother provided documents showing she does in fact have POA. Besides, I guess it might vary, but people with Down Syndrome have often been ruled as not being capable of making their own decisions. I knew a guy who had Down Syndrome and he got really ill. Even though he didn't want the treatment, his parents had POA over him so they forced him to go through with it.
Agreed. I have a severely disabled son and the way POA works here is he has to understand what he's signing and why which he doesn't so I can't get a POA over him.
Just because someone has disabilities does not mean they can’t understand the risk of pregnancy. They should be allowed a chance to understand what’s going on, have someone there to help them with making a decision that’s not family. People need to stop treating everyone with disabilities as if they are text book cases. Everyone is different. It’s better to give them a chance then to assume they can’t understand things.
It’s ableism, those of us who are disabled can speak for ourselves, yet time and time again or choices get question because we are seen as a burden on society, we are not allowed to think for ourselves because “you poor thing, we know better than you”. Like there are non disabled people who would have taken the choice not to do the surgery, and I bet 100% no one would deny them their choice even if they disagree with the decision.
I couldn't believe it when the mother said she wasn't capable of making decisions. Her daughter had Down syndrome but was not incapacitated. The daughter said repeatedly that she didn't want surgery. She had some idea there was a risk to her baby. She was also aware that she was in danger. Her biggest concern was saving the baby.
@@sxugaryxcube9475it’s not ableist if her mother knew for a fact she’d be the one raising her daughters baby. Your situation isn’t everyone’s situation. It’s unfair that people under the care of other people because they can’t care for themselves can arbitrarily make decisions that affect others.
@@saraflint2982it didn’t appear that she realized there was a risk to her life. She latched on to possible danger to her baby and that’s what she focused on.
@@bautistalover You're right. And it's not just people with Down syndrome. Any mother would put her child's life over her own. Either way, I'm sure she wasn't aware how serious it was.
Yeah you can because there is a wealth of knowledge showing how this is wrong. It's called the internet, the greatest encyclopedia to date. It's never been easier to acquire the knowledge for so many situations and scenarios, do the research and put in the time and you can most likely find the right outcome. It's not a be all end all, but it's better then being quiet and assuming it's fine.
@@dainironjaw5425Google does not make you smart it gives you the delusion of being smart. The op is right people find themselves in these situations and we don’t know what we would do if we were in the situation. You could try using your brain instead of parroting some bs off encyclopedias. 😂😂😂😂😂
@@omnistpagan3282 So fact and evidence mean nothing? Go try somewhere else like in my comment, it says it's not the be all end all. But you must of missed that, if you belive everything then that's on the person.
I have Autism plus severe Anxiety and yes I do get help for my mental health. But now I am studying medical science which is a big achievement for myself.
I work with people with intellectual disabilities. Trust me when I say I am an a$$hole to doctors, I am. It’s true that they don’t always have the power to decide things but the voices will be heard.
If she is the one that will support and take care of the baby, then by all means. But if she has the baby to leave for her mother to also take over that, then she has all the right to have a saying.
With a person. specifically a pregnant person with down syndrome its very clear that they are not fully capable of raising a child on their own. I totally stand with the mother. She has sacrificed her whole life for her sick daughter and now she does not wanna do it all again.
@@BetaLantean It's a fictional series so ofc they're gonna show the more ethical route rather than the practical one LOL. No one deserves to live a life that mother will.
@@Havis_Princessthere are many who can not. The mother has legal paperwork. It’s clear her daughter doesn’t fall into that category of being able to have her own family so to speak.
There’s people saying “you won’t understand unless you’re in it” and I understand that. But what people don’t seem to also grasp here is that there are medical professionals who are dedicated caregivers. Their entire profession is to take that load off of family when helping someone with special needs. Caregivers are trained and can deal with the emotional toll. People want to say “it’s our responsibility to care for them” when discussing someone with a disorder like Downs, but they don’t realize they don’t have to do it all alone. Caregivers are there to help and if the mom is so concerned about taking care of the baby and her daughter, and feels scared about the whole ordeal, she is not a terrible person for getting a permanent caretaker to take over for her. Like she said, she isn’t 30 anymore, and she made that morally grey decision because she’s under a lot of emotional and mental strain at the idea of caring for someone else. A caretaker doesn’t judge or make you feel bad about anything, they are there to help.
This was one of those cases where doing the right thing isn't straight forward. I can understand why the mom made the decision she did. She knew the price if her daughter didn't get the life saving surgical procedure, and she also knew the possible price if the daughter had it even if Young Barbara didn't. The mom took the calculated risk to use the power of attorney... And thankfully it worked to save both her child and the unborn grandchild.
my biggest issue is that Barbara may not understand the full scope of what being a mother will entail, but she is clearly high functioning enough to make an informed decision on whether she wants surgery even if others don’t agree. it was unfair to make her go through with it while she is screaming and begging her mom no not because it’ll hurt, or she’s scared of surgery, but because she’s concerned about the safety of her fetus something we have seen on this show and in real life a lot where a mother doesn’t want life saving surgery so their baby can continue to be safe.
I do agree with Barbara just said I do agree if I have a baby I do not want this surgery so I don’t need surgery so I don’t want it I want to push it and Barbara's mom will have to help her daughter's wishes she will deliver her baby Like right now she doesn’t want this surgery she will be fine and get her heart open surgery first then her baby too and she will won’t be feel any pain
It’s unfair to make her go through with surgery? Is it any less fair that her mother will have another child to look after or have to loose not only her daughter but her grandchild too? It wasn’t an easy decision but the right decision was made.
@@bautistaloveri’m not saying the mother isn’t put into a bad situation but there are treatment facilities and adoption if it becomes too much for her. it sucks and is a bad situation but if she had just taken the time to talk to her daughter about the risks and rewards of the pregnancy they wouldn’t HAVE to drag her away distressed. plus the mom confirmed the baby doesn’t have down syndrome so realistically it’ll be a lot easier to deal with
I’ve worked with patients that have Down syndrome, they are the most sweet and loveable in the world, but they require 24/7 care. I do understand the mother, because now she will have double the work.
I’m an Autistic with Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) and I have a sibling with Down Syndrome and Alzheimer’s. We’re glad our other sister, who’s normal, has Power of Attorney! There are many things we have trouble doing and understanding. We need this extra help to better live our lives. “Rights”? Doesn’t that concept get confused with “Privileges” anymores? I don’t want what I haven’t got!
I was in this exact same situation last year . I found out I was pregnant at 12weeks when I thought I couldn’t have kids due to chronic illnesses. I also have a serious heart condition that requires me to need a heart transplant in the near future. I had to choose to terminate my pregnancy even though I really didn’t want to . But if I decided to continue it’s very likely I would not be here today . Mt baby’s gave me a second chance at life . Is brings back a lot of emotions watching this but also quite healing
![Twenty One Pilots - The Line (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Audio]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/XCz7WUotXs8/mqdefault.jpg)
Unrelated, but I love in the beginning how the woman says to the doctor, “I have a baby in me.” And he smiles at her and says, “Congratulations.” That was so heartwarming to me.😊
Yes very sweet
People often seriously underestimate the strength, determination, resourcefulness and understanding that Down’s sufferers have. With the right love and support they are capable adults in a high functioning society. I’ve known a Downs woman all my life. After leaving school she was given a job in our local supermarket, helping out at the checkouts. Over the years she worked up to supervisor, all while also helping to care for her elderly parents. She’d been a highly respected part of our community. After her parents died and she reached retirement herself she went into a care home. There, she was an avid support for the carers helping out with many duties around the home including her favourite pastimes…cooking and gardening. She sadly passed away in her sleep aged 72, and was missed by many.
It differs on a case by case basis. One person's Downs' syndrome is not the same as another's. Some people with the condition are able to take care of themselves but other's are not. The mom wouldn't have just been granted Power of Attorney just because the daughter has Downs, Barbara would've had to be evaluated by an expert or experts and declared unfit to take care of herself.
@@shootingcomet082
Totally. I’ve known and worked with many Downs children and adults in my lifetime. They are no different to every other human being…UNIQUE in their own way. That’s what can make having someone in your life with special needs so enriched and rewarding. All given that they are brought into this world by parents or care givers who are prepared to be there with them every step of the way and encourage them whatever their capabilities are. Tragically, many with special needs globally, are not. My thoughts and prayers are always with these poor souls that need our help.
Wow, she sounded like a very good person. Rest in piece.
WHOA, SHE LIVED TO BE 72?! I was a caregiver to a woman with Down’s Syndrome who only lived to be 54. She had dementia and eventually couldn’t speak or eat about a year before she died. It was heartbreaking. This woman you’re talking about is so blessed to live that long. Most people with Down’s Syndrome don’t live past 60.
Please please please refrain from saying sufferers. There not suffering with Down syndrome…
If I had to choose between my daughter and her unborn child, I'd pick my daughter every time
I THINK most people would.
It's definitely a messy situation. While I understand the mother's side here, seeing Barbara getting pulled away screaming broke my heart. My brother and I are both on the spectrum, and I know how bad the infantilizing can get, I can't imagine being in her shoes
I’m disabled have been my whole life, I have slight brain damage when it comes to judgment around social situations. I can learn I just take longer.
Anyway it’s nothing like autism though I sometimes relate and it makes me wonder.
But I totally get what you mean about the infantilizing (sp)
It’s so annoying sometimes. Sometimes it’s merited when my oxygen is low yea I’m not gonna understand what the heck you are saying but it drives me crazy when people talk to me in a high pitched voice like I’m 3( I may be short, but on my chart it tells you exactly how old I am) and I don’t have any severe mental problems that would prevent me from understanding when you are treating me like a child. That being said I can sometimes be a hypocrite and I do it to others and I have to catch myself and remind myself I hate it when people do it to me, and that they probably are smart enough to know when people are treating them different even if it doesn’t seem like it.
Yeah I have Autism plus my Mum and my sisters. It is hard.
Yeah, pulled away screaming because she was having a tantrum, like a child having a toy taken away.
@@jessymonster she thought her baby might die, and was getting a surgery done against her will, do you really think that's not an appropriate reaction??? I don't have kids but that would be a pretty terrifying situation to me
@@hibiscuspetals02 she doesn't have the mental capacity to understand the situation, no. She had a tantrum, like children do.
“Did you do it for your daughter, or yourself?”
Quite the question…
The mom thought of herself.
I find it pretty terrible that she would rather have her daughter suffer the pain of losing a child than feel it herself.
@@queenesther09She probably would have died before feeling that.
@@missy9088that's not necessarily true, she loves her daughter and wants her to live but her subconscious is breaking down and in the way back of her mind.. she doesn't think she can do it anymore. Ultimately if she didn't get the surgery done. The daughter would die. So the mom ultimately thought of her daughters well being
being wheeled away and forced to undergo a surgery you don’t want sounds like a horrible nightmare
I felt so bad for her 😢
Well she’s not really fit to make the decision. And I’m pro-life by the way.
@@Americanpatriot-zo2tk I’m pro choice… and I respect your opinion… if I were the mother I would’ve said save both of you can…
@@slayermoon666 thanks! God bless!
@@Americanpatriot-zo2tk nobody asked???? or cares???
It's one of those situations that you couldn't possibly understand unless you're in it. I understand wanting to demonize the mother, but she's going through a normal human emotion. It's difficult caring for a child with special needs. She loves her daughter and loves that baby too, she's just also well aware of the toll it's going to take on her and her daughter's life. She chose to prioritize her daughter's life and there's nothing wrong with that. The baby survived so now she'll just have to play with the hand God dealt her. Life isn't black and white and morality isn't either.
I completely understand the mom's choices. I can't be mad at the daughter, but it's so frustrating that she doesn't and/or can't comprehend how hard this will be.
@@Midnight0Mistress Down syndrome has no effect on being a parent
I agree. My two boys went to Pre-K with a sweet little girl who had Downs Syndrome. They are all grown and their friend went on to have a healthy baby boy as an adult. So I am alittle biased because of personal experience.
The daughter still has a say in her health care
You can’t force someone to do anything if they refuse. She’s an adult. She had a say. I’m special needs and I’d never allow anyone to make a medical decision that I didn’t consent to
You have to feel for both Barbara and her mother in this episode. The mother has a lot on her plate and the thought of adding a baby to an already complicated situation was too much for her as a woman over 40. I am sure she was happy the baby survived and terrorfied at the same time.
I'd rather lose my grandson that I don't know, than lose my daughter that I raised and loved for 25 years.
People who lose children are never the same after. So in a sense you still lose both.
But that leaves out what it would do to your daughter and your relationship with her, if you forced her to have an abortion.
@@ColleenF30 It's possible she would have lost both without the surgery. It's a lose lose situation
@@Taygon45 If you have ever lost a child you would understand. You lose both either way.
@@ColleenF30 That's why I said lose lose
As someone who is disabled, and has experienced firsthand infantization by others this is so tough. I feel for both
amen . its disgusting . i have a disability too . our disability doesnt mean we are not capable . we may need help but it doesnt mean we should be talked down to .
@Loserkid420 is she supporting herself? Living by herself? If she cannot take care of her baby, then it also becomes her mother's responsibility. Then she has all the right to have a saying.
@@alexiatr indeed. Which is why I said I see both sides.
@@alexiatrto have a say is different than to dictate.
I don't have kids so I wouldn't know. But when the mom said she can't raise another baby, it's so real. I can totally feel sorry for the mom. The face she made at the end... It breaks my heart.
I COMPLETELY understand this, THIS!!!!! people don’t understand the pressure care takers face, like parents age and die and not everyone will be there to care for you especially when you have special needs like your parents or family will. The patient does not understand this
@@NIkki-ox1ej yes. This is such a real issue. We’re humans. Even if we love someone, they can burn you out. I would’ve been like the mom… Is it horrible!m? Maybe but the ones judging aren’t in the same situations. :(
But at the exact same time the reality is that the person she’s caring for is their own person as well. And they have rights and feelings of their own that deserve respect and consideration. If raising a special needs child puts you in a place where you can’t care for anything or anyone else anymore then you should have the consideration to discuss that with the person and be honest in letting them know you expect them to go without reproducing for the remainder of their lives. If not at least through out the remainder of yours. Otherwise don’t have children. Spoiler alert, most children grow into adults. Adults who can likely reproduce. So that’s something that needs to be addressed.
@@tearsinmycokea lot of people disown their kids cause they dont expect them to reproduce as teenagers occasionally becuase of the financial and emotional strain that comes from having to care for a baby and how a baby even when left to the others care indirectly affects your quality of life. So i agree on being very careful when having children because if they are reliant on you and decide to have their own without consulting you.
She called her daughter 'it'. "I wouldn't trade it for the world". Then she says "it's just the possibility of having another one".
As someone with a disability, I can understand where Barbara is coming from. When you're disabled, everyone thinks that they know what's best for you or a certain situation. This means they feel they can get rid of things of yours behind your back, do things you don't want done, and make other decisions for you. When you lash out, you're then talked down to like you're a child. I'm a fully competent adult, but this still happens. When I make a choice that someone disagrees with, they'll try to use roundabout logic to try to get me to go along with their plan or their choice. Unfortunately for them though, when I find out that they did something against my will, I'll undo what they did.
You said it so well thank you
Exactly. I'm disabled as well, I was considered legally psychologically disabled at age 17.
You said it very well.
One of the most frustrating parts of this video was the mom saying "its like having a child that never grows up". Downs syndrome is a spectrum. While I'm sure there are some downs patients who are like that, there are also some who can live fine on their own. There's one who is practically a savant in mathematics, and teach it to college students.
Well said, I have Autism plus severe Anxiety and yes I do get help for my mental health. But now I am studying medical science which is a big achievement for myself.
She's also not living on her own. The problem is the mother has someone else to take care of. If she's so capable, she can move out
@Handicapable Outdoors You said it better than I can
For once, I’m happily surprised by the empathy and understanding in the comments. No one would wish that situation on anyone else, but you do the best with what you have.
The hard part is that mother will not only be looking after her daughter who has Down syndrome but also bringing in another child that the grandmother will mostly raise and while Down syndrome people can look after themselves they cannot do it all so they need extra care I understand both sides.
Idk why it wasn't mentioned to Barbara, but if she had died, her baby was dead too. It was stated it was too young to survive outside her. IDK why they didn't just lead with that?
That’s what I thought too🤷🏾♀️… TV logic I guess, we’re just here for the drama
I remember an episode where they told the mom the same thing and I think she had this same condition. And she was willing to risk her life for the baby. It got to the point that her body couldn't take it and the baby was born but she died on the operating table.
because people freak out more if you lead with it and often it's the same outcome
Exactly!
She wasn’t exactly grasping the concept. All she heard was the surgery MIGHT hurt her baby and that’s what she latched on to.
I can relate after seeing my husband with his sister who has cerebral palsy and a lower IQ function get pregnant when she didn't tell anyone she was dating someone, while living in a group home. My husband hates himself for stepping in and taking his niece away from my SIL. We always encourage her to be around and be apart of her life. We battled for months on what to do.
My daughter was born with Tetralogy of Fallot, she had it repaired at 6 months old. This episode breaks my heart.
Having medical POA is a very hard thing, whether for a disabled child like in this show or for an elderly parent. Every decision is agonizing.
You are so right. I had medical power of attorney for my mom when she was terminal.
Power of attorney is when a persona can not talk for themselves
@@carlerogers6700no it’s not when they can’t make decisions for themselves period. You can speak for yourself and be considered mentally incompetent.
im more concerned how she even got pregnant in the first place..and the dad just..left
I’m assuming she got pregnant the way most people do
She is not wise to the manipulative ways of the world. Whoever took advantage of her naivete is actually criminal. Either the "group home" that allowed it or the "father".
I believe the daughter was on Glee. She is a good actress.
Yes she played Becky!
@@micotineeee777 YES 👍🏼😁❤
Her name is Lauren Potter
She's so lovely!
I knew she was familiar!!
my brother has down syndrome, and while i love him, i completely understand the struggle and why this women is thinking the way she is. you can’t understand unless you live the life she has
Through a friend, I knew of an elderly couple with a severely Down Syndrome child. The parents were grandparent-level old, not many years left. Their adult child also had grey hair, and he just followed them around, moved when directed, and stood there with his tongue out. Those parents knew they would soon be dead, and their DS child would have to survive without them. They'd never been able to move through their own phases of life and enjoy retirement and travel and everything else. They were trapped in a permanent cycle of caring for a toddler, but one who weighed ~90kg as their own bodies grew old and frail.
I don't know whether they resented the cards that life dealt them, or whether they wouldn't change it for anything. But I do know from just looking at their faces, that their lives had been unfathomably more difficult than most people would ever know. So medical choices like in this episode would not ever be clean-cut black and white to those who live the reality every day.
Well theirs also a difference between a low function person with DS and a high functioning person with DS. The young woman in this could be taught how to function in society if the mother wasn’t so overbearing. The mother would have been able to have more of a life if she let her daughter go to those classes and maybe let her daughter get some extra help from the government or disabilities or something. It seems like the family you were talking about was low functioning and the adult child probably wouldn’t be able to learn that.
situations like what you described are exactly why i could not carry a DS baby to term. and people seldom ask, aside from the devastating effects on the parents' lives, what kind of quality of life is that for the child? imagine being in your 50s and only ever having the mental capacity of a toddler. spending decades following your parents around with your tongue out like an elderly chihuahua. having no one to turn to and no one to care for you when your parents die of old age. why would anyone choose to subject their child to that life?
I’m disabled since birth and have grown up around children (later adults) of all types and levels of disability.
One thing to always remember is that it’s not a “one size fits all” thing. And especially not with Downs Syndrome.
I’ve know kids with Downs who could take regular classes at school, read and write, get degrees and have great jobs.
I’ve also known ones who functioned perpetually at around age 3.
Some had severe medical complications.
Some were the stereotypical “always happy” people think of with Downs. Others could throw tantrums you would not believe…made worse because they did not realize their own strength. Imagine the tantrum a 4 year old has when you won’t buy their favorite toy or treat on shopping day while they are tired…now imagine a 22 year old man having that same tantrum, with all the strength of his size and age.
Each person is unique!
I have had to go through the whole "But I have POA" and "I don't want to have that for my family member". The whole point of the POA is to have someone make decisions if the patient is UNABLE TO MAKE DECISIONS. I just had to help a family member with this.
The power of modern medical technology is amazing
really?
@@sidhu139 nope, your smartphone technology is more amazing
@@honor9lite1337 If you think that you have no clue about what's going on in our world
it's more the power of movie magic
@@zilesis1 typically you would be right, but these types of procedures do exist which makes abortion obsolete
I think the mom was just doing what she could to save her daughter, even if that meant potentially losing the baby. But I’m glad the doctor also saved the baby. I can see both sides, and it tugs at the heartstrings to see the daughter not wanting to lose the baby.
If she lost the baby, the patient would have tortured herself for the rest of her life. She would have severe trust issues around her mother and all medical staff. I can’t imagine how damaging that would have been
@@eileensnow6153 Eeyup.
This is hard situation even for a person who doesn’t have special needs. It’s like who do you decide is going to die? But, this is even more difficult because I can see how the mom feels being the caretaker for both of them.
Mother's LIVES first. As long as the fetus is inside the mother, the mother comes first!! It should be clear, without the mother, the baby won't survive or develop properly.
This really touched me I’m 29 I been in hospital all my life I’ve heard so heartbreaking things similar situation or at times worse I pray 🙏 for everyone in the world and those who have passed
It was either not do the surgery and risk losing both, or do the surgery and risk losing one.
There's no clear answer, and the fact that the mother felt guilty about the decision tells a lot. It's impossibly painful to be in that situation for either of them.
well Dr. RHodes made it easy by doing the surgery and still risking both!
There was an option for medication and weekly visits
There is a clear answer though. It's her child it's her choice
@@lunawiggins8251it wasn’t really an option. The medication wasn’t a guarantee but a compromise to placate the daughter and mother. The meds probably would’ve bought them a few months. Listen to what Ava was saying in the background.
Lauren Potter is a fabulous and wonderful actress. She did so well here.
Many years ago my best friend was physically in her 30s but was mentally disabled and was only in her early teens. When she started dating her boyfriend from her day centre where I met her, her mam arranged a hysterectomy for her daughter so no accidental pregnancies. Her mam was in her late 60s and knew she couldn't take care of a baby and her daughter and boyfriend were incapable of raising a child together or even care for themselves. I agree with her mam. It would have been impossible. My best friend didn't understand having her period every month so definitely would have problems
The problem is that this woman completely understood what was going on though! Just because she has down syndrome, doesn't mean she couldn't be a good mother or couldn't make her own decisions.
the daughter and mother actors were stellar in this episode.
From these comments I thought they baby died and poor Barbra would be traumatized, Oh my goodness I'm glad everything turned out okay
That mother is evil, pure evil. Who is to say her daughter couldn’t raise that child. People who take autonomy away I thought is what cringe lord pro choice people want.
I think this could have been handled a lot better. My younger sister had down syndrome and I am one of her certified caretakers. If this were to happen to her, and I had medical power of attorney, I absolutely would go through with the surgery. I love her more than anything. But that doesn’t mean it should be made so quickly and without time for her to process. You can make the decision, and she can be upset, but I would own up making the decision and take the time to talk with her about WHY I made that decision. She didn’t take the time to have a calm conversation with her, which takes patience, but that’s just part of loving someone with down syndrome. it’s a complex situation and either way, it’s terrible, but I certainly would show my sister more compassion and respect.
Exactly, it didn't seem like it needed to be done that very second. They could have waited and had her talk to a counselor.
It is a TV show🤷♀️
Your analysis breaks down when we consider the Mother didn't even listen to or give any credence to the non-invasive treatment option, didn't even give the doctor a chance to make his case. Then admitted she didn't want the baby to the hospital worker, from what the Daughter said, her mom may have even wanted to abort the baby.....
@@ithalpallath6770 it’s a tv show based off true events
Not your body not your choice
Honestly this would be such an impossible situation. It's one of those scenarios where there is no right or wrong choice, unfortunately. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I very much disagree with how the mother handled it and strongarmed her daughter into surgery directly against her wishes, though. She should've explained in depth what was happening to her and why surgery was absolutely necessary instead of just making her get the surgery.
The doctors talking directly to Barbara and treating her normally and talking to her normally was great to see.
My son is severe special needs, and so I get it. My life has been entirely dedicated to him. I'm not sure what I'd do if another human being was added into the equation. Even if the baby came out 100% neurotypical and beautiful... It's so just much.
Yes. I think that people forget that although Barbara was the mother, her mother would ultimately be responsible for both.
@@brontewcat IDK the daughter seemed pretty high functioning, the baby didn't have downs, and there are well recorded cases of down syndrome sufferers raising their children.
@@maxmccullough8548 Possibly, but from the way the mother spoke I think the daughter lived with her and she was still caring for her daughter. Also the daughter’s reaction was that of a child, not an adult. The daughter did not seem to understand that not only would she die but the baby would probably die also. I think it was pretty clear that Mum was going to play a large part in the baby’s upbringing.
However, it would have been better for her to have to discussed the decision with her daughter first.
Sometimes what we think is the best isn’t what we need. As a disabled adult I really hate seeing these comments. Most times parents won’t see that they could be hurting their kids more than they help. There’s a reason why disabled people have huge life-giving up rates. Even the “non-functional” individuals can learn to be more independent. “Doing everything for them bc they can’t do it themselves”, to me is just emotional negligence. Neurotypicals usually forget that we are people too
@@lizg5692
My daughter has Down. She’s just 20 months with her whole life ahead of her, and as much as people with disabilities hate it… special needs individuals will always need someone’s aid.
I refuse to have my daughter growing up thinking “Because she has special needs-she should feel disgust / put-off for someone else’s aid”
Lauren Potter is such an amazing actress. I loved her in Glee, she was one of my favorite characters. Now, here she is acting her ass off again!
I LOVE S. Epatha Merkerson. She's so great in all of her roles
Cut the mother some slack, she’s completely overwhelmed with no help, she’s doing the best she can.
Two mothers fighting for their babies
A Chicago MD clip without Dr Charles? What’s up with that?
I feel so bad for that mother she was hated on by that doctor because she prioritized her daughter over the baby, it sucks that the baby could have died but it also would have died if her daughter died so she chose the option that saves her daughter and I’m very glad the baby was fine.
And can we talk about their acting especially that daughter for a second I forgot it was just a show because of her scream.
I think you mean he, Barbara said her child is a boy. This is my pet peeve and I understand we live in a society that dehumanizes children, especially the unborn and by extension their parents, but if the mom wants the child and considers them to be a person, even though the law doesn't, isn't that enough to not objectify them?
A mothers love is like nothing else in the world
Love? She called he daughter "it" and referred to the baby as "another one".
People really underestimate how people with Down Syndrome can actually function. I went to the school one time and there was a janitor there who had Down syndrome and he was a fully functioning adult. He was treated as an equal member of the community and was totally independent and capable.
my best friend has ASD and he’s very high functioning. People with disabilities are capable of so much and I wish people would stop underestimating them
This is not the case with lot of people with this condition. My daughter, 20 months old have Down syndrome… we didn’t know until she was about 1 month old. Why? Most times it’s picked up right after birth. You know that “low muscle tone” that’s “apparently” so common among those with this condition? My daughter didn’t display any signs of that and other things. She’s extremely active since birth (she spent 4 months in NICU due to premature birth and an infection)
But her feature have changed so drastically-you see her you couldn’t tell right away that she has it Down syndrome. So many parents don’t have it differently. Of course, my daughter has a hole in her heart due to the condition will close in 2 years, but it could have been so much worse.
This episodes does a tremendous disservice to people with DS .Sure, there are those who require a lot of support if they are low to mid functioning, but this girl is clearly high functioning. High functioning people with DS work (obviously as this young woman is an actress), marry, and have children that they successfully raise themselves.
Poor mom. What a horrific situation to be in. And the daughter too. Hearing her crying must have broken the mom's heart into pieces.
The situation is not easy. On the one hand I understand the girl, who wants to have a "normal" life and become a mother. On the other hand, I understand the girl's mother, who at the news of the possibility that if her daughter didn't have the surgery, as the pregnancy progressed, she could die and with her the baby. As much as she doesn't want to harm her daughter and grandson, she's between a rock and a hard place...
Yeah it’s almost like the mom cares more about her grown daughter than a fetus. Weird 😂
@@omnistpagan3282 The mother of course was just afraid. People with Down syndrome are known to have heart-related health issues. A pregnancy can cause heart problems as the pregnancy progresses. The mother has decision-making power over her daughter, so she can decide on any medical treatment she wants to perform, and as much as they wanted to indulge her daughter, the mother knew the risks of a pregnancy in her daughter's adverse conditions. The woman no longer cared about the fetus. He cared more about his daughter, and the fact of wanting to have her have an abortion was not to do his daughter an injustice, but to prevent her from dying while continuing the pregnancy, even with the alternative intervention suggested by the doctors... To say that he didn't care about his daughter, or that he cared more about the fetus is outright bullshit.
The real villain is the father of the baby.
It's one of those situations
damned if you do and damned if you don't huh
I don't think poa applies in this situation. The patient clearly said no. Poa is not about taking away rights of the person in question. More about being able to make decisions if the patient is not able to make them herself
you think wrong
@@potocatepetl nope principal can override the agent at any time
@@thatonedog819 not true
You clearly don’t know what power of attorney means lmao
@@JoelEmmettMcGarrity....except I do. I think you're thinking of conservatorship, not poa
With my mom she told me that if she had to she would have aborted me. Now before you say anything, My mom was 22, working full time had her own place with my father who stayed with her until her death a week and fully mature to take care of a baby. The doctor told her that there may be some life threating issues with me and could also hurt her as well but he wasn't saying that in a nasty way but in a way that was helping my mom prepare. She was a no BS full on tell it like it is no sugar coating type of woman. Turns out that I was safe from any major issues but was born with an heart issue that still gives me trouble. But I will never ever be mad at my mom for telling me that if she had to she would have aborted. She would have aborted me if she had no other choice. She was a great woman. It only been a week since I and my dad have lost her and it still feels like she is still here.
I don't understand a woman's need to tell her own child she would have aborted her if she had had to. What was the point of saying that to you, except to let you know she once had power of life and death over you. May God forgive her her cruelty.
@@vaska1999 How was she being cruel? She was told that I had a 90 percent chance of being stillborn and she could have died as well because of it. I will never hate or blame her for thinking about aborting me. She was the only one of 13 pregnancy that my grandmother had that survived to even be full term. So i understood where she was coming from
You may think she was cruel but she was not and never was cruel. I would rather have my mother be honest with me than lie to me. That only brought us closer.
I also did die at only a week old by my health issues.
I know that you have your options about this and that is your choice but do not EVER EVER say that my mother was cruel by thinking about and telling me that she would have aborted me.
I know she wants to keep the baby but mum's health always comes first. If she's unhealthy, chances of baby dying or having defects are so much higher. Plus if she didn't have the surgery she could die meaning baby could die. But what do I know?
not really most hospitals unless told otherwise prioritize the baby
@@ayajade6683 That's a complete myth.
This is why you need to talk through these choices before they happen.
The way the dr explained it to Barbara was flawed and the way people treat her is just awful.
My mom worked with adult special needs patients (i know, its not the same thing as downs syndrome), and this is the grayest gray area. I agree with the chisled man for the most part, but I also completely understand the mom's point of view. I helped out my mom occasionally, and if I ended up having a downs syndrome child, i dont think id be up to the task.
Oooh, complex one. Something like potentially ending a pregnancy against the wishes of the pregnant person is huge. The mother is probably doing the best she can, and she must worry about caring for her daughter and granddaughter, especially if the heart failure would have lasting effects. However, I do wonder whether there is any good solution.
My grand daughter has special needs and she's doing amazing good in school it's a joy raising her and her brother their both my heart and soul " theirs nothing I wouldn't do for them
The showrunner obviously did not consult a lawyer before authorizing the script. A medical power of attorney is revocable by the patient. If her mother had conservatorship over the daughter, or were the daughter's legal guardian beyond the age of 18 as enforced by a court order, then the mother could overrule her daughter.
I was wondering why the fact that the POA could be revoked or contested etc wasn’t addressed.
My biggest complaint against the mom, aside from her completely ignoring her daughter’s wishes, is how quickly the mom decided to have the surgery done.
Like she didn’t take some time like the doctor suggested to at least think about it.
I tend to believe that she does have a conservatorship or similar given the circumstances. They also spoke about legal documents and not only one document.
That's why it's just a TV show
there is an episode at Law and Order pretty like this. The mom has down syndrome and wants to take care of her child
Actually, it is not revocable without a psych evaluation to make sure that the patient is able to make safe desicions. If a person has POA then it’s usually for a reason, in this case the patient has down syndrome and possibly failed her last psych evaluation to have legal capacity. Young people usually don’t have an assigned POA without medical reasons such as intellectual disabilites.
In this case I do believe they should have had more of a discussion because she was able to consent and conceive and the mother was wrong to make a decision like that so quickly despite how against it her daughter was but it’s a TV show and the baby gets to live through the miracle of television.
I work in the field, not a hospital and it's situations like this that makes me glad I don't. My job is to keep them alive until the hospital takes over.
Just now found this show. Seems pretty good so far. Might start watching this. Wow this episode looks so good. I'm going to be checking season one out.
Power of attorney doesn't mean mom gets to make decisions willy-nilly. The patient needs to be incapacitated or declared legally unfit to make their own decisions before a POA kicks in. If this video was accurate to real life, then there could (and likely would) be a ton of adult children forcing their parents in or out of procedures just cause they're POAs. A cognizant patient would be in 100% control of their medical decisions.
Someone with Downs syndrome would be considered legally unfit to make their own medical decisions. It's more like a parent making medical decisions for young kids
I think in this case the argument was that Barbra had been declared legally unfit to make decisions by a judge (at some point in the past) because of her syndrome and so her mom was granted POA
You're thinking of POA in the sense of a non cognitively disabled person.
Like how if I'm in a coma my husband would make medical decisions for me because he's my POA
BUT in Barbaras case she's got Downs Syndrome it's likely the court made the Mom her permanent guardian because she's been deemed mentally unfit.
No actually that's what it means. And I don't think the mother made this decision willy-nilly. The mother probably understands the fact that a a person who has down syndrome is likely to have another child with down syndrome. If the father didn't have down syndrome, it's 50% chance. If both of them had down syndrome, it's 100% chance. And even if that child doesn't have down syndrome, the chances are she's going to have physical complications because one of their parents did have down syndrome. It's exceedingly rare that a male would be with down syndrome. Would be able to father a child. Rare not impossible. So I think the mother thought about this a lot. Because if that child is born which is likely to be very sick. Who's going to make all the complicated medical decisions? Who's going to pay for that in a country that puts profit over people? Who's going to pay for the child? Just basic needs. Who's going to want to have to make all the decisions about the child's care. The medical care, the education it's going to have to be the grandmother. Seems to me this grandmother has burnout and is exhausted.
It’s obvious she was already declared mentally unfit hence the reason why she had the POA to begin with.
I’ve been in Barbara’s shoes several times as an autistic man growing up and still today people think because you have what they think is a special need or disability that you don’t know I understand what’s going on when you’re situation or you’re pushed away but I mean strong with the faith of God
I mean the choice was they both die or the chance of only one dying so there really is no choice there
As someone who works in healthcare and deals with power of attorney situations regularly, it doesn't necessarily mean that the POA can just override the will of the patient if they're able to understand what's going on and vocalize what they want for themselves, we listen to the patient. Power of Attorney exists to allow a trusted person to make medical decisions for the patient IN THE EVENT that they are not capable of doing so for themself. I work on the administrative side of things but I certainly have never ignored a patient's wishes simply because they have a POA.
Im with the mother on this
Heart wrenching... great ending
I thought medical power of attorney meant you could refuse medical care on someone's behalf, not order it. Could a parent with medical POA for an adult child order they be sterilized or undergo IVF against their will?
My understanding is yes. See Britney spears of all people. Her dad had POA over her (or something like it), forced her to get an iud placed and wouldn't allow it to be removed. I don't know of any cases with permanent sterilization, though.
@@madisonhoward8333 That was a conservertiship. Not Power of Attorney. It is similar. Generally Power of Attorney is for when a patient is unable or unwilling to make a decision, the person with power of attorney can make the decision on their behalf. That can range from only being able to veto a procedure to being able to do everything medically. It just depends on the case.
Right or wrong, this is not the way to talk to or deal with your disabled child. Even if they are like this girl and really can't live their own life and make life choices- they are still people and adults and should be treated with respect. If not, they will at rhe very least hate you as their parent and push you away
@@emilyhedrick2851 because of comments like this is why mothers that raise disabled children feel hopeless. They feel like they cannot share how they really feel and end up bottling everything up until they explode. There's a great percentage of caretakers of disabled people that end up depressed, suicidal and even end up killing because people that don't know what they have to go through will make them villains for sharing how they really feel about the situation. In this clip, she wasn't telling her daughter how she felt. She was sharing with another adult the hardship of raising a disabled person. It's a monumental task that will never end
Actually, I'm not even sure this is legal. Medical PoA is usually for when the patient is unable to make a decision for themselves. The daughter is still capable of making decisions, so her mother shouldn't have been able to exercise that. It may be different if the patient is mentally compromised, but the decision should still be respected.
@@elizabethkelley2559 it doesn't matter once the ink is dry, legally speaking. As in, if there wasn't a legal document giving the mother power of attorney then it would be up to the doctors to decide if the daughter really is capable or not. but once that paper exists it's not a choice anymore. mom's name is on the paper, mom gets to make the calls. deviate from that and the hospital gets sued
@zilesis1 incorrect the girl is not incompasated. So mom had not right to do what she did.
@@karinaashmon if the mom has power of attorney, it doesn't matter if the daughter is incapacitated or not. Power of attorney means another person can meke decisions for you at any time, regardless of what you want.
Unless she was declared legally unfit to make her own decisions this is NOT how POA works. The patient has to be incapacitated before there's a need to consult POA. This girl could think for herself and clearly make decisions on her own.
Obviously they had worked out the arrangements for the mother to have POA as, even though it wasn't shown on this clip, the mother provided documents showing she does in fact have POA.
Besides, I guess it might vary, but people with Down Syndrome have often been ruled as not being capable of making their own decisions. I knew a guy who had Down Syndrome and he got really ill. Even though he didn't want the treatment, his parents had POA over him so they forced him to go through with it.
She probably has social security and it would have been part of that process
Agreed. I have a severely disabled son and the way POA works here is he has to understand what he's signing and why which he doesn't so I can't get a POA over him.
@@TimberlakeTigerGirlit is how POA works. The woman even had her paperwork in order.
@@carriecompton6919completely defeated the purpose. His lack of understanding is literally the point of POA.
this is hard because they both want to save their baby
Just because someone has disabilities does not mean they can’t understand the risk of pregnancy. They should be allowed a chance to understand what’s going on, have someone there to help them with making a decision that’s not family.
People need to stop treating everyone with disabilities as if they are text book cases. Everyone is different.
It’s better to give them a chance then to assume they can’t understand things.
It’s ableism, those of us who are disabled can speak for ourselves, yet time and time again or choices get question because we are seen as a burden on society, we are not allowed to think for ourselves because “you poor thing, we know better than you”.
Like there are non disabled people who would have taken the choice not to do the surgery, and I bet 100% no one would deny them their choice even if they disagree with the decision.
I couldn't believe it when the mother said she wasn't capable of making decisions. Her daughter had Down syndrome but was not incapacitated. The daughter said repeatedly that she didn't want surgery. She had some idea there was a risk to her baby. She was also aware that she was in danger. Her biggest concern was saving the baby.
@@sxugaryxcube9475it’s not ableist if her mother knew for a fact she’d be the one raising her daughters baby. Your situation isn’t everyone’s situation. It’s unfair that people under the care of other people because they can’t care for themselves can arbitrarily make decisions that affect others.
@@saraflint2982it didn’t appear that she realized there was a risk to her life. She latched on to possible danger to her baby and that’s what she focused on.
@@bautistalover You're right. And it's not just people with Down syndrome. Any mother would put her child's life over her own. Either way, I'm sure she wasn't aware how serious it was.
Unless you have been in this situation yourself, you cannot judge those involved.
Yeah you can because there is a wealth of knowledge showing how this is wrong. It's called the internet, the greatest encyclopedia to date. It's never been easier to acquire the knowledge for so many situations and scenarios, do the research and put in the time and you can most likely find the right outcome. It's not a be all end all, but it's better then being quiet and assuming it's fine.
@@dainironjaw5425Google does not make you smart it gives you the delusion of being smart. The op is right people find themselves in these situations and we don’t know what we would do if we were in the situation. You could try using your brain instead of parroting some bs off encyclopedias. 😂😂😂😂😂
@@omnistpagan3282 So fact and evidence mean nothing? Go try somewhere else like in my comment, it says it's not the be all end all. But you must of missed that, if you belive everything then that's on the person.
She is a great actress
I know the patient really well, Lauren Potter is a wonderful actress
The infantilizing is frustrating here
I have Autism plus severe Anxiety and yes I do get help for my mental health. But now I am studying medical science which is a big achievement for myself.
Impossible situations with impossible decisions.
I don’t mean it in a mean way, but that poor mother.
Is this the girl who was on Glee as Becky Jackson?!❤
Yes, she is
Mother will be taking care of both her daughter amd her granddaughter for life. The baby may have Down Syndrome.
Thats the reality.
Poor woman.
I work with people with intellectual disabilities. Trust me when I say I am an a$$hole to doctors, I am. It’s true that they don’t always have the power to decide things but the voices will be heard.
The daughter is an exceptional actress!
Who's the British nurse. Why haven't we seen more of her?😮
If she is the one that will support and take care of the baby, then by all means. But if she has the baby to leave for her mother to also take over that, then she has all the right to have a saying.
Is that the actress who plays Becky on Glee? She was always one of my favorites on that show.
I understand because as of until recently my mom has been my power of attorney
With a person. specifically a pregnant person with down syndrome its very clear that they are not fully capable of raising a child on their own. I totally stand with the mother. She has sacrificed her whole life for her sick daughter and now she does not wanna do it all again.
Its not her choice though. Lol doesnt matter anyway, the baby survived
@@BetaLantean It's a fictional series so ofc they're gonna show the more ethical route rather than the practical one LOL. No one deserves to live a life that mother will.
I've met many people with down syndrome that can still care for themselves ir theur children she's not 5. She's allowed to have her own family
@@BetaLanteanit actually was she has POA and the law on her side.
@@Havis_Princessthere are many who can not. The mother has legal paperwork. It’s clear her daughter doesn’t fall into that category of being able to have her own family so to speak.
That power is used when patient loose capacity to take decisions, that mother abused her power🤷♀️🙏🏻🕊
So sweet ❤ glad the baby is ok
Dr is like Mam you are gonna raise both of these children for the rest of your life and that's that
I felt bad for the mom.
There’s people saying “you won’t understand unless you’re in it” and I understand that. But what people don’t seem to also grasp here is that there are medical professionals who are dedicated caregivers. Their entire profession is to take that load off of family when helping someone with special needs. Caregivers are trained and can deal with the emotional toll. People want to say “it’s our responsibility to care for them” when discussing someone with a disorder like Downs, but they don’t realize they don’t have to do it all alone. Caregivers are there to help and if the mom is so concerned about taking care of the baby and her daughter, and feels scared about the whole ordeal, she is not a terrible person for getting a permanent caretaker to take over for her. Like she said, she isn’t 30 anymore, and she made that morally grey decision because she’s under a lot of emotional and mental strain at the idea of caring for someone else.
A caretaker doesn’t judge or make you feel bad about anything, they are there to help.
and caretakers cost money.
money
Who is going to pay for the caregiver?
She said imagine having a child that never grows up and I felt that 😢
This was one of those cases where doing the right thing isn't straight forward. I can understand why the mom made the decision she did. She knew the price if her daughter didn't get the life saving surgical procedure, and she also knew the possible price if the daughter had it even if Young Barbara didn't. The mom took the calculated risk to use the power of attorney... And thankfully it worked to save both her child and the unborn grandchild.
honestly, if i was going through heart failure, save me and not the baby. i can always make a new baby, but you can never make a new me.
my biggest issue is that Barbara may not understand the full scope of what being a mother will entail, but she is clearly high functioning enough to make an informed decision on whether she wants surgery even if others don’t agree. it was unfair to make her go through with it while she is screaming and begging her mom no not because it’ll hurt, or she’s scared of surgery, but because she’s concerned about the safety of her fetus something we have seen on this show and in real life a lot where a mother doesn’t want life saving surgery so their baby can continue to be safe.
I do agree with Barbara just said I do agree if I have a baby I do not want this surgery so I don’t need surgery so I don’t want it I want to push it and Barbara's mom will have to help her daughter's wishes she will deliver her baby Like right now she doesn’t want this surgery she will be fine and get her heart open surgery first then her baby too and she will won’t be feel any pain
It’s unfair to make her go through with surgery? Is it any less fair that her mother will have another child to look after or have to loose not only her daughter but her grandchild too? It wasn’t an easy decision but the right decision was made.
@@bautistaloveri’m not saying the mother isn’t put into a bad situation but there are treatment facilities and adoption if it becomes too much for her. it sucks and is a bad situation but if she had just taken the time to talk to her daughter about the risks and rewards of the pregnancy they wouldn’t HAVE to drag her away distressed. plus the mom confirmed the baby doesn’t have down syndrome so realistically it’ll be a lot easier to deal with
@@jayleighbear adoption wasn’t going to help if her daughter died before the baby was born.
I’ve worked with patients that have Down syndrome, they are the most sweet and loveable in the world, but they require 24/7 care. I do understand the mother, because now she will have double the work.
I’m an Autistic with Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) and I have a sibling with Down Syndrome and Alzheimer’s. We’re glad our other sister, who’s normal, has Power of Attorney! There are many things we have trouble doing and understanding. We need this extra help to better live our lives. “Rights”? Doesn’t that concept get confused with “Privileges” anymores? I don’t want what I haven’t got!
I was in this exact same situation last year . I found out I was pregnant at 12weeks when I thought I couldn’t have kids due to chronic illnesses. I also have a serious heart condition that requires me to need a heart transplant in the near future. I had to choose to terminate my pregnancy even though I really didn’t want to . But if I decided to continue it’s very likely I would not be here today . Mt baby’s gave me a second chance at life . Is brings back a lot of emotions watching this but also quite healing