Dominion War : How Garak Destroyed Who Sisko Was
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 22 дек 2019
- What's up Lore Masters,
Support the Channel! hover.com/lorereloaded
This is a multipart episode break down of the Dominion War.
================================================
Want More Lore?!
Star Trek Lore: goo.gl/McF2i5
Star Wars Lore: goo.gl/Hzyrk2
Battle Star Galactica Lore: goo.gl/jpPPUY
Star Trek Dominion War: goo.gl/fmwtPf
================================================
Twitter: / lorereloaded
Facebook: / lorereloaded
Twitch: / lorereloaded
Patreon: / lorereloaded
================================================
Come Hang out while I play..
Mixer: goo.gl/YhgNiE
Twitch: goo.gl/kiVw8w
===============================================
Citations! These are my most often used resources:
Memory Alpha: memory-alpha.wikia.com/
Trekyards: / knightstalker666
Spacedock: / @spacedock
Ex Astria Scientia - www.ex-astris-scientia.org/sca...
================================================
The music in this video is licensed Royalty Free.
Songs:
Music by:
© 2017 Epidemic Sound 
Развлечения
Sisko was never a typical Starfleet officer to begin with. He blackmail Quark in the very first episode. He used Garek to warn Cardasia of the Klingon invasion. He polluted an entire planet to get one man and even was ok with martial law until he found out Admiral Leyton caused the sabatoge. Garek didn't destroy Sisko. He just open the door to the side of Sisko that knew it needed to be done
to be fair Michael Eddington
BETRAYED THE UNIFORM
I know. Trust me I'm not against Sisko. In fact he's my favorite captain.
Sisko might be more common than we give him credit for. We tend to see hero ships with hero captains, but how many Star Fleet Captains have been on screen total? Definitely less than 100 right, I'm guessing less than 50? Among them, Sisko, Ransom, and Maxwell were all brutually effective, and they make up probably 6-10% of the Captains we've seen, and that's before I unilaterally make Axanar canon and dare you to stop me.
@@thomasconnors4338 sisko a great captain and it sad the defient class was not used for borg fighting like sisko intended but it got it golden hour with dominion war.
i have no problem with Axanar but only seen trailer looks cool
FYI it’s Garak
"You may have saved the entire Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, Captain, but I call that a bargain." -Garak
1 senator, and his CREW... The latnum bribe to Quark, the clothes aswell... The holosmith, whatever Sisko paid for the holosmiths release, Biomed gel, the clothes Garak was working on when Sisko snaps... ect.
So Yeah... Not so cheap but still worth it...
@@MLBeaton compared to the entire alpha quadrant? A steal
@@striker8961 quark was right, everyone has a price. What he couldn't fathom is how good of a businessman sisko was to get the best deal of it ...
@@Andrew12217 never spend more for an acquisition than you have to
in war no one comes though it with clean hands not even the clerk doing paper work
I get the reference!
This reminds me of a scene in the movie "Fury," when Brad Pitts character forces that one military clerk to kill that enemy soldier that they captured.
Is that from Clear and Present Danger?
whats that from?
@Razgriz the Mandalorian But they felt clean. And do you why, Major? Because they were clean.
Garak didn't "destroy" Sisko, he merely broke the shell hiding the real Sisko.
I agree, he just asked Sisko a simple question. Does Sisko want to save himself, his family, SF and perhaps Everyone enough that he'll do whatever must be done. And see it through to the end to turn things around when the opposite choice is slavery and or death for all of 2 Quadrants of space.. Then Sisko was left to make a choice. The likes of Spock, Tuvoc, Janeway... an perhaps under such desperation even Picard woulda logically concluded what went down in the episode was for the best. ESPECIALLY since the bad was overshadowed by good in the end and it all worked out.. an he NEVER needed do such a thing ever again
Thereby proving Quark right as well. Hoomans are all nice and cuddly....when they're happy and their bellies are full. Push 'em a bit...and they start taking trophies.
Absolutely agree. Even Quark mentions how humans are actually quite brutal behind the federation veneer in their time travel episode I think. His observation is quite apt. Having humans change that much for the better in only a few 100 years is improbable. Take away our creature comforts and we're still the same brutal race, a fact that Sisko embodies perfectly
@@ladythalia227 "A savage, child race" if I remember the quote accurately, neh? But we still have potential. Too bad we're not seeing much of that IRL, at least at the moment.
When Garak's father, died, Garak consoled him saying that all of his enemies were dead and he mentioned the Romulan senator by name.
Garak's plan was correct and worked. That is what should be stressed. It achieved the military ends with a minimal loss of life.
Romulan Senators disappear all the time it's typical in a society who prizes secrecy and deception, and the criminal was slated for death by Gowron. Nobody was going to miss them.
@@JRGProjects The best part is they established that the criminal totally deserved it too. He wasn't someone who ran afoul of some Klingon rule or scammed them, he's the kind of guy who tries to manhandle a woman in a bar and then stabs the bartender for intervening. The actor also did an outstanding job of being slimey AF, too. The guy only had like 5 scenes in one episode and I remember just about everything about the way he acted and talked. He just OOZED scumbag.
JRGProjects ironic since he’s the same actor who played Gowron.
Very true federation ideals were wildly out of sync with the galaxy they were in. Sisko needed the dose of reality.
By far my favorite Star Trek episode. Yes, a horrible ethical dilemma. But this episode perfectly lays bare the nastiness of war. You can’t be ethical with high ideals in a war. Well at least you can’t do it and survive. Especially when the enemy has absolutely no problem with violating your ethics or ideals.
"Humans say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Why? Do they think there's a shortage of bad ones?"
--Karm'Luk P'an Ku,
The Joy of Lucidity
CY 8633
TheRanblingjohnny, One of the best openings from that series.
Aldo a hill of a good point.
The only reason deep space 9 was ignored for so long is the founders didn’t want to upset Odo too much. It is after all his home.
And I bet most Jem'adar knew Odo was there, and would be very reluctant to fire at it and risking his life.
You forget the founders tried to wipe out the whole system when they had bashir abducted. So i doubt its good head cannon
Caleb Garrett yeah, and how does that make it “bad head canon” all that means is they reached the limit of thier patience. They also attacked the station directly, and captured it; while Odo was on board, and I’m pretty sure some Jem’hadar tried to kill him there too. Then one or 2 scenes later starfleet retreats and the dominion have taken the station.
@@juliankirby9880 i dont know about that since the founders tried to get the star to supernova before war ever happened, it marked the start of the kilmar accords and the klingon alliance. Before that the federation didnt attack the dominion just defended and the seige warfare was costing the federation the war.
@@juliankirby9880 and i cant think of any episode that the jim hadar tried to kill odo
Vreenak: To be honest, my opinion of Starfleet Officers is so low, you'd have to work very hard to disappoint me.
Sisko: Hold my Romulan Ale...
Honestly, I think that in the long run Garak saved the Romulans. If the Dominion had defeated the Klingons and the Federation then it would only have been a matter of time before they invaded the Star Empire. It was only by joining the Alliance that the Romulans avoided being conquered.
Besides which, given the cruelty and tyranny that the Dominion planned to unleash on the Alpha and Beta Quadrants the death of one senator hardly seems like a loss at all.
Overall, Garak should be celebrated as the hero who saved the Alpha and Beta Quadrants.
Yeah, that bit of the Romulans siding with the Dominion like in the earlier part of the episode never made sense to me either. Sure it makes sense for them to stay out of the early stages to let all sides wear themselves down, but surely they must want either a stalemate or a total Dominion defeat.
You're right of course. The Founders have an unrelenting drive to subjugate every solid they meet because "what you can control can't hurt you" said that female changling commanding the Alpha Quadrant Dominion forces.
@ 0utc4st1985 I believe it to be Romulan arrogance. Most likely they believe they can just hammer out an agreement with the founders like they did with the federation. A bit irrational and illogical but not that much of an inconsistency of how Romulus is portrayed. Waiting in the shadows for the right moment to strike. It is true that Romulus would have to do something against the founders sooner or later, however, they didn't have to do anything right then at that moment. Romulans getting involved asap is in the interest of the federation and Sisko, not necessarily a necessity for the Romulans to survive. Maybe they planned to secretely arm themselves, wait the war of atrition between the federation/klingon alliance and the dominion out, to then conquer the whole quadrant for themselves.
Heroes often have to be Blackmailed into action. Those who Blackmail them? Also Heroes. Just SILENT ones.
The truth is both the Cardi's and Romulans. Were slated for extermination by the founders. The second they set out to bomb the Omarion nebula.
Sisko was never your typical Starfleet captain. He had a dark side to his personality and was willing to break the rules. But as the saying goes....rules are meant to be broken
True. All that said, Sisko would rather not be dark. He'd rather being chilling on Bajor with Cassidy Yates. Reality just wouldn't let him be the kicked back type of guy he wanted to be.
Yup, like when he was going after Edington.
Garak was a great intelligence officer. He was a master manipulator. He led Sisko, an intelligent and moral man, to do what he knew needed done.
Its kind of surpising that section 31 hasn't tried to recurit him, think about it, he already got everything required to be a spy, he also an outcast among his own people, he a bit of a puppet master, if anything, he the most dangerous man on DS9, despite appearances.
@@superomegaprimemk2 he was still the protege of enabran tain
The romulans and Dominion had a non-aggression treaty, not an alliance.
In the pale moonlight has to be one of my favorite episodes of DS9. It is my personal belief that Garek intentionally used Sisko to lure Senator Vreenak to DS9 to plant evidence of a Dominion plot to invade Romulus on his shuttle and plant a bomb on Vreenak's shuttle. As stated by Garek the data rod would never stand up to scrutiny, however when damaged who would be able to tell if it was damaged by the explosion of Vreenak's schuttle. Garek Probably had the entire operation planned out before he allegedly contacted his remaining operatives on Cardassia. Andrew Robinson's character in the series is incredibly well written which leaves you with either a wish to know more or a dark desire to know how he thinks.
Garak tells Sisko that everyone he contacted was killed within 26 hours, and then literally the next sentence tells Sisko to lie to Vreenak about how they came into possession of the data, "tell him ten good men died bringing it across the lines." He's so masterful that he can tell you his methods and then use them on you without you realizing it. Garak had this planned for awhile and was waiting for a good time to put it into motion. That's why his first interaction after being recruited was to kibosh Sisko's plan and suggest a new one.
Garak was always good at spinning a yarn. He never merely sowed a suit, he wove a rich and delectably deep tapestry. He is what the Alpha quadrant (and maybe the Beta) needed, someone to finally pull the thread.
He is INDEED what the Alpha AND Beta Quadrants needed.
Imagine the humongous mistake it would've been if the Romulans actually went from a non-agression treaty to a full blown alliance with the Dominion? How horribly that would backfire on them?
Worse part of it all, Romulans are so assuredly arrogant and so short-sighted in their ambitions, they'd probably believe they can just scheme and manipulate the Founders when the war was over. *They had clearly grown delusional after years of dealing with the Federation.*
In more ways than one, Garak saved their precious Romulan Star Empire. For even though no plans to invade Romulus had been made YET, who's to say they wouldn't be made in the future? *The Tal Shiar participated on the bombing of the Founders' homeworld. And the Dominion would never forget that.*
It's funny that Sisko, especially later on, would totally be the sort of starfleet officer who's the bad guy in a TNG episode.
If you're going to get in the mud with the Dominion, you can't complain that you might get dirty. In war, there are no rules except for one, may the best man win.
My favorite part of this - in the episode, Garak tells Sisko to ham it up that there were a lot of good Starfleet men who lost their lives to give him this information, to lend legitimacy to the fact it's important.
Then Garak does the exact same thing to Sisko, telling him that all of his contacts are dead...and Sisko doesn't pick up on it.
My favorite episode of this series. Now that I think about it, it does does answer a lot of questions about Garak's motives. He DID play Sisko, but it was a " you scratch, my back I'll scratch yours" situation. It could be argued that Garak did this to help liberate his homeland.
Garak enabled Sisko to have his breaking bad moment.
You'd think the Betazoids would have the advantage of knowing their enemy's next move.
They are restricted by a few things, including range and inability to read certain species. Since both the Jem'hadar and the Vorta are engineered species I wouldn't be surprised if being telepath proof was a priority, at least for the Vorta since they lead while the Jem'Hadar mostly just take orders.
Plus as a species they are rather soft and too kind for their own good. They never use their ability to gain much of an advantage and don't try to hurt anyone with it. Just imagine the Mirror Universe of a species with their latent ability. I think the TNG book went into that concept a bit with Troi.
Every Betazoid on the planet: "Captain, I'm sensing... Boss music???"
they sense feelings, not the future.
@@jenshep1720 Telepathic, not clairvoyant in other words.
Also the federations inability to conduct war makes the promotion of Martok to supream commander of the 7th fleet a lot more understandable because who would you want leading the fleet into war an inept federation admiral whose never even seen a phaser or a Klingon warrior whose proven to understand battle and the enemy time and time again.
Well there is a problem in each sides. Federation is more diplomatic but inexperience.
Klingons are too gungho
Romulans do not want to share information, and show they have certain weaknesses.
The war was poorly conducted.
They had separate fleets, rather than using their advantage to negate the disadvantage of their colleagues.
If it was conducted properly, Klingons bird of prey should protect Romulan war birds. ROmulan war birds should be cloaked to protect Federation ships from the Breen. Heck they should draw out the Breen so ROmulans can get in position to destroy them.
That Robinson started out playing the most whiny assassin in film history only to end up playing the coolest assassin in TV history is a weird career arc.
Especially since I think he played Liberace in a made-for-TV biopic too
Ah Dirty Harry, that was one awesome movie.
@@sid2112 Shame Clint Eastwood never made a guest appearance on Star Trek, at least as far as I am personally aware. Would've been cool to see the two of them interact on screen together again.
“subterfuge is tight!” - Captain Sisko
To quote Colonel Troutmam "The statue was always there, he just chipped away the rough edges. "
Cisco came "full circle" that episode and made peace with what it took to fight a war to win it. Did Garek play him? Sure. Or maybe he just chipped away the rough edges.
Cisco? Garek? lol.
The background information of this episode highlights why demilitarization is stupid. You can't demilitarize when you are surrounded by military powers unless you want to be conquered then go for it.
Like what happened to the Terran empire
@@thomasalvarez6456 Kinda.
From the moment he became the Emissary, he was no longer a member of Star Fleet, or at least not exclusively he was alien to lineal life.
Thanks I actually missed that coaching Sisko to say they lost good men, that he said he lost all his good men. This is actually great witting by DS9 we know Garrak lies all the time but we too were so wrapped up with Siskos emotions that we let him manipulate us.
When you are doing a Garek impression, you sound like Steve Shives. 😂
Damn you didn't have to come at him like that!
What an insult. That's just uncalled for.
I mean god damn that was intense.
Iregardlass is not a word regardless is a negative without the i.
so glad I'm not the only person who noticed this and cringed.
Irrespective would be the correct format
Just because it's horrible nonsense, doesn't mean it's not a word. Have you met the English language? 😬 Here let me unpeel that banana for you. Oh wait you already peeled it? 😂 Man I love hate this language.
I had to pause the video and recover after that assault on my ears.
Irregardless is actually a word in the English language. It means exactly the same thing as regardless.
Garak made me super happy when I was running an antique shop in a down-town overrun with tweakers and junkies. I just pretended all the addicts that came in to steal were aliens I was supposed to spy on. But when the tourists and old ladies came around, the sad part is, I was a very good antique shop manager.
Garak is SO GOOD as a character... Lying to Worf for practice... assassination... deception... and that Bromance with Bashir... And ARGUABLY a savior of the alpha (and less remembered beta) quadrants
Garak never bothered with his "contacts" left on Cardassia. He knew exactly what he was going to do and what he was going to make Sisko a party to. You'll note also that the biomemetic gel that Sisko gets for him that Bashir noted it could make organic explosives. That may well have been the "bomb" that destroyed Vrenaks shuttle.
My guess is elements of the Talshiar worked out what Starfleet had done but were the very same elements that wanted Vrenak out of the way and to get into the war because they understood just what a threat the Dominion were. My guess is the Romulan senate and the government always planned to join the war but were planning to come in at the 11th hour under terms which would force significant concessions from the Federation and Klingons and leave Romulus the dominant power after the war was over. The assassination forced their hand and its not exactly like they could cry uncle because they still needed to join the war to avoid encirclement.
One of my favorite episodes of Star Trek. "In the Pale Moonlight" is a brilliant script and acted so well by the entire cast.
In the Pale Moonlight is a timeless episode that seems like it could have been written in the early 2000s.
It could be written now.
DS9 was my least favorite. It was the least Star Trek of the old star Trek. But in this , this one of the greatest of all star trek episode. Star Trek is about thinking. Something the new Star trek lacks. They are after Wow. They new star trek did an episode that used the work of the classic TOS. The introduction of the Romulans. YOunger fans would get interested to seeing why TOS was so good. Of all the Star Trek aliens, I like the Romulans better. As a villain, they are more complex. No matter how much culture they add, they are just about war.
Romulans are more human like.
This was the best episode of Trek. Ever.
There need to be a fan fiction where someone else dragged the borg into the dominion war too. That could be the greatest war drama ever.
*The Borg would be on-sight with EVERYBODY.*
The war might have to be halted!
I can't believe I did not know about this channel sooner, keep up the terrific work!
Merry Christmas, Lore Masters. I'm so glad that Pale Moonlight is getting serious attention. All these years later and it's still my favorite ST episode of any series.
This may be one of your best lore breakdowns. Love the topic.
Lore brother war is not broken down by math. If conflict really was determinate as such half of victories would not have been victories in real life. Germania resistance to Rome, American War of Independence, British Resistance to Nazi Germany in WW2, Japans Victory over Russi in the Russo Japanese war these were all unforeseen victories on the outset of each of these conflicts.
Most of war can be calculated. That is well proven by the fact that Japan’s superior warrior ethic could not stand up to American industry. Even the occasional Sgt York or Dan Daily can be mathed in if you accurately account for subtler factors and can find a way to get extra men and artillery in situations where one of them might make a difference.
Exactly. You can't predict a war by demographics
@@thomasconnors4338 yes in a protracted conflict yes but in the cases of nested war which these days war can easily evolve into such an invading force can find it hard to find measurable victory because your fighting for someone's home. Trust me dude I'm in the Military war is my life understanding what War is has been my job for all of my adult life. The more I understand the more i find i know little about war.
@@808INFantry11X You're in a modern military. Any of us could pacify the entire middle east faster than Genghis Kahn. Iraq is a quadmire? Block the Tigris and Euphrates in Kurdistan, kill every man woman and child in Baghdad, then take Turkish and Iranian Kurdistan for our collaborators and give them their enemy's gold.
PS thank you for your service. Marine Corps Infantry here.
Great breakdown of one of my favourite DS9 episodes.
Have a great Christmas!
You are correct that Garak did not contact any of his insiders. He had planned from the start to fake the data. This is stereotypical of obsidian order the path of least resistance too get the desired result.
Excellent take!! Merry Christmas!!
And a Merry Christmas to you Lore Master.
Great video very informative
My 2 fav characters are garak and Eddington. Why? Because both were successful in fundamentally changing the way sisco behaved. Sisco went from being the prophet to being just another flawed man who needed to bend the strick federation rules to suit him.
but sisko didn't really embrace being the emissary (prophets are the wormhole aliens) until much later in the series. and even then, he only did so after getting to know bajor and its people.
and sisko was always flawed. the first arc of the show showed that, first when he was pissed at picard for the death of his wife and then by the prophets showing him that he had been living in the past after his wife died.
@@maxacorn sisko was half prophet. His mother was inhabited by one at his conception. Emissary to the bejorans but a prophet nonetheless. I meant his starfleet ideals were changed after he recovered from his grief after worf 359. I agree with most of what you said.
Garek is my favorite character in DS9. I think Garek played Sisko hard, and what happened was only very slightly not his main plan.
I'm not sure about killing the Senator. That move was always part of the backup plan but the fallout could have easily have been the Romulans joining the Dominion. In the chance that the halo programmer did his job well enough then I don't think the shuttle would have been destroyed.
Garak had to have planted the bomb already, but wouldn't have needed to detonate it if Vreenak hadn't decided the data rod was fake.
Best episode of Ds9, best episode of star trek
Merry Christmas Lore Masters
Merry Christmas Lore!
It's that old story, monsters are needed to destroy monsters.
This is what makes DS9 unique, the cast was not composed of the "perfect" officers we usually see in the fleet's glorious flagships, they were what Starfleet needed in dark times.
The analysis by Bashir and all the other augments had the fundamental flaw of not accounting for the influence of 1 individual, which Bashir himself proved was quite a fatal flaw in the calculations.
Romulans played the role of the USA. Sitting back, letting all the players bleed themselves then I think they would enter in
Never realized the parallels to the WWs.
"Irregardless" lemao
Its a word, you only make yourself look silly :)
@@LoreReloaded Only according to some dictionaries, not all. And even then it's always labeled “nonstandard” or “disputed."
*Regardless* , when people use 'irregardless' it just makes them appear like
a) their preoccupied with coming across as intelligent but aren't actually that well read. or...
b) Are just a contrarian nerd that wants to start spats in their comment section ;p But you were neevveerr do that would you lore? Nuh-uh. That's not your style one bbiitt.
I see through your games you tricky bear~ What's my prize?
@@LoreReloaded It's*
@@LoreReloaded Please stop being so sensitive. It's not a word.
As Sisko says in an earlier season, “It's easy to be a saint in paradise.”
Rewatched this episode with my kid recently, who is a PG student in history. Her field? WW2 Crimes against Humanity. It's a sad day when a kid reminds you that 'moral codes kept in times of moral crisis die. The Humanity those codes are meant to protect, live on to find a better way'. Garek gave Sisko that opportunity. He knew the war was a mess that could not be won, and he set up a way for victory. Everyone who fights loses something. Sisko would have found a way to achieve his goal, but if he'd done it his way, he wouldn't have lived through it, he wouldn't have found a better way. And they needed him to protect everyone from the Pa'Raiths a year later. That was a mission only Sisko could fulfill. It was war, by its very name 'war' something is going badly, generally on all sides. Sisko knew he needed Garek for the exact purpose of finding a solution..
I did what you suggested and went to Amazon Prime and watched the episode but just Sisko and Garak. Thank you for suggesting that.
Merry Christmas pal
it's the war that "destroyed" him . if not for Garak Sisko would have joined forces with section 31
For all we know, he might have anyway, and we just never found out
Your right Nitpicking Nerd. And for me at least, In The Pale Moonlight is my least favorite, and by far most depressing, episode of ANY Star Trek series. Star Trek advocating for and celebrating the exact amorality it was made partially as a reaction against really burned.
@@Andregrindle Yeah, it was depressing for me to see that episode. "For the Uniform" was a letdown too for me.
In the Pale Moonlight is the the finest 48 minutes of television ever. Period.
Still love that you call the Rihannsu by their proper name.
Odo was why Deep Space 9 wasn’t taken when the lines moved. The founders wanted him to still feel important, they could leave him for last.
Merry Christmas to you too bro I hope you got that gelato machine you been wanting
It was probably garek that planted the idea of the romulans entering the war in the doctor's head in the first place.
He also likely had contacts in the star empire, letting gerak know they were ready and willing to enter the war. All they needed was an excuse.
Lore Reloaded, I hope you too have a great Christmas.
I figure figure Garak just gave Sloan a friendly head nod when he saw him about the station. One professional recognizing another.
I admit, I hadn't thought about Garak lying about his contacts being killed within 24 hours. You make a very valid point and I think you right.
Holy hell. All this time I thought Garak merely helped Sisko see his true self!
Merry Christmas to you, too!
One of if not the best DS9 episode
IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT, the best Star Trek episode of all time. Shakespeare would have loved it, and justifiably. Every speech, heartfelt, every act...darker than the last. It was what good theater is all about, and shown to us on..TV?
I can only praise that episode, not a single negative word applies.
One of the better Star Trek episodes ever.
Random, but is the Cardassian logo in the program backwards? Every image i see of it has the hole and dash of yellow on the other side. Maybe that's what tipped off Vrenak?
Merry Christmas!
Merry Christmas
5:17 do you have a video with just those conversations or a playlist in which they're ordered?
The true genius of DS-9 is that it gave the much needed death blow to the naive, idealistic universe of unicorns and feel good platitudes that was Roddenberry’s Star Trek. It finally became real and dealt with hard truths. Chief among them is if you are a person, a nation or a federation of planets, if someone decides to take what you worked to build, you’d better pray you have people like Sisko and Garak (and yes, Sloan too) in your corner. People who know what needs to be done and do it, regardless of the cost even to themselves.
It was time for the Federation to take the gloves off. To quote the outlaw Josey Wales.
Josey Wales : Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up, then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is.
@lore reloaded.
Can you do a break down of the disco episode new eden. Specifically do you think Pike broke the prime directive?
Andy Robinson is one hell of an actor, from Dirty Harry (he played the Scorpio Killer) to Deep Space Nine (Garak).
agreed
OMG didn't any of you ever get it? Garak's character was indirectly based on the title of the John LeCarre novel "TINKER TAILOR SOLDIER SPY".
Garak was the man! He was such a underrated character and should have had his own show!
Just imagine how super awesome DS9 could have been if in the end of Season 1 cliff hanger we could have got clean shaved head Sisko with USS Defiant. Already fighting a Dominion war😊
2:20 The statistical calculations of the Think Tank of the genetically altered humans did NOT consider adding new elements like the Romulans to the war (or other untapped potential allies). They also did not consider using unconventional means of warfare, like collapsing the worm hole or a replicant virus on the founders or things like "fireships" made with Romulan ship engines (which literally contained a singularity/black hole inside of them).
Garak just calls that "doing a number 6" :)
A can of diced carrots will always make a dish taste bad regardless of what you call it.
It is what it is.
When you purchase that can, its taste will be bad, either by itself, or in a recipe.
Sisko made the decision to go to the grocery store and he chose to buy those canned carrots.
Merry Christmas.
He also forgot that Bashir was replaced by a Founder
07:03 - It's not that the Dominion couldn't destroy DS9, it's that Odo was there so they couldn't take it by destroying it. It had to be taken without harming him.
Morality, to a degree, is situational.
You need men like Sisko who are principled in peace but willing to compromise to win existential battles.
The true measure of his morality would not be his actions during war, though war does not justify all crimes, but instead how well they return to upholding the principles that make peace great.
7:30 So basically Star Fleet had devolved into a bunch of bookworms and geeks and behaving like a bunch of ostriches burying their heads in the sand, to the constant and very real dangers of exploring and defending their territories.
Their much-beloved philosophy of Exploration of Space while having just a bare minimum of weapons and proper defense shields, shows just how little they value their own lives and the lives of their crews and officers compared to their utopian Prime Directive of Non-Interference.
The entire fleet of ships should have been revamped long ago to all have state-of-the-art defensive shields and weapons plus a strong contingent of military personnel to have any military threats they may encounter.
By definition, space is a very large and lonely place, which makes it an ideal place for pirates and military adversaries to prey on you and your colonies. So it makes zero sense for Star Felt ships to be so pacifists and unarmed as most of them were.
I love this episode, becouse of theintrigue, and it ultimately shows that doing the "good" thing is necesary even though it doesn't make you feel all good and fuzzy inside.
And honestly, preventing the fall of the Feneration for the price of a (propably corupt) senator, a death row inmate, and your selfrespect is a bargin.
Of course Garack lied. Its Garak after all. You may as well asked if Garek breathed.
This is easily my favorite episode of the entire series.
It is unlikely that Garak would have suggested this plan without at least a reasonable certainty he would be able to find the means to see it through. All of Garak's words to the Captain are carefully chosen to make it seem like there is no choice for the Starfleet Officer but to keep putting one foot in front of the other. All he had to do was wait for the Captain to come to him before suggesting it. As the progress of the war continues to go poorly, he keeps waiting - but it is probable that the only reason he goes directly to Sisko to talk about trading for the data rod is and he could only proceed if he had biomimetic gel to negotiate with.
The range of emotion on Garak's face when Sisko goes from an abrupt and resolute calling off of the whole enterprise to immediately hesitate and rethink the whole question by stating that the quantity is out of the question says it all. There is a moment where you can see Garak wondering if he'd pushed the captain too far. He is looking a bit at the floor and sort of twitches in place in contemplation, and then abrupt surprise when the captain stops the turbo-lift, followed by relaxed relief and a look of supreme satisfaction as he is able to continue the game.
Of course... the final conversation between the two men is the most telling. Sisko has suspicions that Garak planned to kill the Senator from the beginning and despite minor protestations to the contrary... Garak all but admits it after all with this line and those that follow...
"That's why you came to me... isn't is, Captain?"
I think you are 100% correct, and I thought that the second we learned of the Senator's death, hell, i think even Sisko realized this. Garak played him like a fidel, but I think that Garak openly warned him and even told him that he was lying upfront. you don't just tell someone to lie about how many people died to get the rod then do so yourself. But Garak is right at the end of the day, Sisko wouldn't have gone to Garak if he didn't know what he was truly capable of.
well.. on the moral implications on bringing in the romulans: it is made pretty clear by their other actions. that the romulans would simply have been next. once the federation and klingons were fallen, the dominion would invade romulan space. so in a sense. sisko is merely speeding up that conflict to open up a second front. brutal, perhaps. but, more people would have died had that happened.
And... I think.. that he might've not had any contacts, but he would certainly have had people he'd wanted dead on cardassia.
Sisko was desperate and Garak used that to his advantage but in that way he also helped him, and the whole alpha quadrant
To be fair, it is quite understandable why Sisko wanted to pull in the Romunlans. Sisko understood the character of the Dominion. Though he did not knew, he probably (and perhaps instinctually) suspected that the Dominion would go as far as to exterminate entire planets to preserve their rule. It may would've not happened in that particular war in case of a truce, but would've happened in the next one, which most likely would've happen. That obviously would've resulted in greater losses on the long term.
Because despite their highly advanced technology and sciences, the Dominion, were a barbaric in their nature, who seen preservation through utter dominance, and as such, had to forced fed them with the humble pie of true defeat.
By this point in the war the Dominion didn't *NEED* to retake DS9. They already had a foothold in the alpha quadrant and were producing ships, Jem'Hadar and ketracel white there. Why take the station when you can tie up key Federation assets defending a station that your enemy thinks you need, but you don't. It was the better decision strategically.
Utopia is being Captain Picard.
Real life is being a cross between Captain Sisko and Garak in the DS9 episode "In The Pale Moonlight".