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Dominion War : Garak's Plan comes to fruition
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- Опубликовано: 7 янв 2020
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"And all it cost was the life of one Romulan senator, one criminal, and the self respect of one Starfleet officer. I don't know about you, but I'd call that a bargain."
And it was
GOD, I LOVE THAT EPISODE!!!
All that for saving billions in the alpha and beta quadrants was a bargain. And I doubt those billions who had birthdays to celebrate after this war would care if Sisko had a pompous Romulan Dignitary killed in order for them to survive.
The poor pilots and guards on Vrenak's shuttle don't even get a mention. It just goes to show, if you ain't got a speaking role, you ain't shit.
@@TaliaIGhul very League of Assassins of them.
Sisko said it himself, It's easy to be a saint in paradise.
But wartime with an enemy determined to annihilate you certainly is not paradise.
@@twinmoon21 That's what Sisko meant. Out in the frontier all is not paradise. You can't expect people to be saints when they're trying to just survive.
Paradise would be how you feel with yourself in this instance.
Ed S Sisko means paradise in that Federation worlds don’t have to worry about hunger or violence or basic needs like other words do.
CBS loves to attack people who give them free publicity.
“Don’t push the pink skins to the thin ice”
Wait...
When you think about it the first and only humans that the Andorians saw were white with some pinkish hues.
You ever notice that nobody ever counts the senator's staff as part of the loss?
Or his cardassian buddies. Methinks maybe they weren't real either
They where not neccessary for it to succeed
DS9 really is one of the greatest series ever. It is just so damn underrated and written off as a Babylon 5 clone but damn it, they still had great writers to come up with stuff like this.
A Babylon Five clone??? Did those people ever watch DS9?
@@stephenconnell JMS kept saying it because they were both set on space stations and he'd treat any B5 guest star that happened to be on DS9 like total crap.
@@diosoth Thanks did not know that/
@@stephenconnell DS9 was in fact based on Babylon 5's storyline. What had happened, was that someone gave the company the screenplay, and they declined it. But they liked it enough, to put it into Star Trek, in the form of DS9. It led to a lawsuit, and an eventual settlement, which actually turned into a bit of a positive, mainly in the sense of Babylon 5 and DS9 cast members doing the occasional cameo in their respective series.
For a full breakdown, read this:
www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/8kreoh/deep_space_9_was_a_babylon_5_ripoff_incendiary/
Although it was highly unethical and illegal, I will still enjoy DS9 for what it was, just as much as I will enjoy Babylon 5 for what it was.
Never thought so.. THIS.. has ALWAYS to me been the STRONGEST and best Trek show ever or since. Rivaled only by Voyager and TNG at times
This shows the range of Avery Brooks and Andrew J. Robinson's acting in this scene.
And not only that - how many DS9 actors had to act under layers of makeup, prosthetics, and bulk/odd costumes to act...and we found it CONVINCINGLY good.
One of my favorite episodes. The best part of DS9 is seeing how much grittier and believable it is. The “star fleet is 100% moral at all times” crap we got from the other series got old.
"I have foresworn myself. I have broken every law I have sworn to uphold, I have become what I beheld and I am content that I have done right!" -Eliot Ness, The Untouchables
It also shows the difference how traditional Starfleet can't seem to think beyond 2 steps ahead. Section 31 could have pulled something like this off. Perhaps, getting ahold of a genuine Cardassian optolythic data rod would have been the biggest obstacle for them. But, (spoilers) if they can work with an asset as head of the Tal Shiar, they could have done this type of operation.
Ah Section 31 the true unsung heroes of the Great Dominion War
CBS - don't you DARE touch this video.
Always watch out for a person who asks: "What do you want?"
Unless you ask for what Vir Koto asked. (waves)
Keep an eye on the person who asks "Why are you here" too they tend to stab you in back
Starfleet went full Trigon with their morale and growth.
The Ferengi bar owner was right. Give the humans food and entertainment and they are the nicest people but take that away they become just as vicious as Klingons
Best ever episode of Star Trek and I could of summed up Sisko's actions in one sentence "sometimes doing the wrong thing is doing the right thing, see one sentence justifieds Sisko's actions
"Former" Cardassian spy ;) My guess is he truly dropped that role when Cardassia and the Dominion parted ways.
Yeah... when the whole species defected to the Federation side and turned on the Dominion... funny how a whole race will do that when one tries to Genocide them... dunno what the oh so smart and superior in every way Founder thought they'd do when they figured out she saw them as slaves, meat shields, expendable soldiers, and target practice for the Dominion arsenal at the series' end
DS9 made Starfleet and the Federation more realistic imho.
DS9 and Enterprise did a better job of humanizing Starfleet than TNG.
@@joeclaridy I think TNG showed the idealism the Federation aspires toward... undoubtedly helped along by Picard's high standards on his ship. He was always such an idealistic optimist, a savvy diplomat, a learned intellectual, and an exemplary picture of the best a moral person could be... and as the Captain of the Federation's flagship, he clearly felt that it was his solemn duty to uphold and reflect such esteemed principles, to lead his crew by example & inspire them to be the best of the best. That's his command style, and it makes perfect sense: as the crew of the flagship, they often represent the entire Federation, so they really are motivated to be the best examples of Federation citizens.
DS9 had a more broadly generalist perspective... while Enterprise could afford to play with much more naive & arrogant characters who still happened to be moral idealists. TNG set the high bar with Picard's ship... so while the others could swim around just under that bar, their stories notably never tried to jump over that bar.
Love ♥ DS9👍 This episode is different & Dark for Star trek✴
You should do a comparison between this episode and the Klingon civil war, particularly Picards closing statements to Data regarding Picards view on soldiers who committed atrocities “while following orders” versus those who defied orders to prevent atrocities.
Given that Starfleet admiralty signed off on what Sisko did it says a lot about the federations ideal only matters when, as you put it, it’s not being pressed into the mud.
With some support from Section 31.
To be fair...I suspect Picard was always a bit more of an idealist than Starfleet Command was.
Probably one reason he was never offered flag rank.
@@sundoga4961 he was in Season 2 but turned it down because he hated the idea of being tied to a desk for the remainder of his career. The episode was called Coming of Age.
@@joeclaridy I had forgotten that. Though, to be honest, I've made something of an effort to forget seasons 1-3...
Garak is one of my absolute favorite characters because of this episode.
Their soul? No. They still have their ideals - and now, an understanding of what level of pressure will make them abandon them. Their innocence and naivete? Oh yes. That's gone.
In the end when everything is at risk, values become flexible when it's a choice of life and death
Starfleet Command: Yup, he is ready to be promoted to Admiral.
I absolutely love that gel-bomb theory. It's actually plausible.
I agree with your supposition about Garak being capable of keeping some of the biomemetic gel for himself, but I don’t think that it’s used as an explosive. I believe that as a weapon it’s used to create bio-warfare devices. Spread by torpedo or other explosives certainly. But the Romulan ship was blown up, not infected.
Holy hell! I had not caught onto that. That Sisko may have supplied the bomb with that gel!
I always imagined that when Garak finished talking someone clears their throat and Sisko and Garak look over there and there's a Romulan sheepishly standing there wanting to pay for a garment. LoL
Man that extra detail about the metagel was something I missed, and does wrap up the story quite nicely.
This episode was absolutely perfection, it shows what happens when you let the writers team work uninterrupted and the cast literally go with the flow. Storytelling magic.
How *did* Garak ensure that data rod didn’t get destroyed?
With his gardening skills. 8-)
@@Corbomite_Meatballs By wrapping it in several layers of good old-fashioned plot armor.
Maybe he had two? He obtained two from his "contact" and somehow copied the contents of the one that was given to the romulans. Then simply hid it aboard the vessel when he planet the bomb. That way he made sure one data rod would survive. Either that or he knew where to plant the bomb and make sure the senator's quarters (if he has one) were affected the least by the explosion and the subsequent destruction of the ship. Maybe i'M overthinking but both options make sense and remember what the klingos aboard the Rotaran said about cardassians, "There was always a plan within the plan within the plan with a trap at the end". So by this logic our first plan was to convince the senator with the data rod. The backup plan was to destroy the senator's ship in case the rod fails to convince him. ANd the last is the backup data rod that will ensure the entire plot succeed.
Im so glad someone finally made a video on this episode
That is seriously one of my favorite episodes of any Star Trek series.
4:41
One of the greatests scenes in Television history.
This spoonhead saved the whole damn federation...
The trouble with wars, in general, is that after a certain point - let's call it "the Godzilla Threshold" - basically, things you wouldn't normally do, start to become reasonable options, no matter how terrible they are, or what their consequences may be, because things become desperate. The hindbrain desire to survive starts overwhelming the forebrain principles of fair play.
In the case of the Sisko plan, basically, that's what happened: full-on desperation. They needed a way to turn the tide, and the normal Starfleet protocols - send in the Oberths! Let enemies hammer our shields down! - didn't suffice. As they wouldn't.
I personally view the whole Dominion War arc as an extension to Wolf 359, the continued dressing-down of a Federation drowning in hubris. The Federation fundamentally mishandled the Dominion, literally from day one. The Federation never accounted for dealing with a fundamentally intolerant, expansionistic opponent. It did not take steps; Rom - of all beings - was the only one smart enough to realize that mining the wormhole so that Dominion reinforcements couldn't come through was a good start, and he was aligned with the Bajoran Militia...but even still, didn't figure that out until a pending invasion of DS9.
Worse, the Federation demonstrated that it failed to learn from ANY of its previous conflicts, including the Earth-Romulan War. A lot of the conflicts the Federation got itself into, was due to failing to understand its neighbors - the Romulans were spooked by United Earth's expansion and colonization, the Klingons were spooked by the Federation's expansion (especially after Archer got done with them), the Tzenkethi and Cardassians were also pressured by Federation expansion, and now the Dominion. While the Dominion DID NOT play fair, and indeed actually started the war, the Federation, the "enlightened" Federation, not only failed to account for its actions, it failed to prepare for the worst possible outcomes. DS9 never should've been left undefended, ever, by any of the Alpha/Beta powers.
In addition to, at their worst, being arrogant, the Federation is also stupid.
Sisko did what had to be done to save the Federation, and Klingons, and even the Romulans from Dominion occupation. The outcome was "good". However, the process that led to it is - charitably - a comedy of failures driven by too-large Federation egos, that the Federation never learned from. It's justifiable to say much, much worse things, too. Sisko prevailed, the Federation prevailed, and I'd go so far as to say the dream of a peaceful future galaxy prevailed...but I wouldn't say they "won" much of anything.
Nice. Thank you so much for making this series. As soon as I see a video in it I watch since it is so cool. Love the channel, please keep up the great work.
Biomimetic Gel as the explosive used to destroy the Romulan shuttle. That's so Garrick. And it makes sense that can be used as an organic explosive as Doctor Bashir pointed out
And this is why we all love plane old Garak : )
Section 31 almost certainly had a hand in approving the mission -- they no doubt had operatives on DS9 given its strategic importance, literally right next to the worm hole. They probably filtered any & all messages going to/coming from DS9.
Spot on, we see how much Section 31 value the alliance during the episode in which they're allied with the chairman of the Talshiar as a means to keep him in power so they can preserve it.
Garak is such a brilliant character.
Garak was always my favorite character. Warm and affable, and at the exact same time, conniving, brilliant, and deadly.
Space Commies never had a soul to lose in the first place.
Garick playing Chess Sisko was playing checkers
Interesting notion about the bio-mimetic gel being used for the bomb, but I doubt that was the case. Aside from the fact that turning it into an explosive probably required specialist biochemical knowledge that I doubt Garak had, he probably would want any trace evidence from the explosion to be definitively tied to the Dominion, which would mean using a known Cardassian explosive, which he certainly would've had more ready access to.
That is, and likely forever will remain, my favourite scene in Star Trek. Utterly brilliant plot, brilliant writing, brilliant set making, and finally brilliant acting. The only thing missing was real blood. It is a Godsend of cinematic excellence that will never be recreated in film or television.
This is what Ronald Moore would bring to BSG . One of the best ever .
All this is the depth of trek
Of old you don’t get nowdays
O no I hear it CBS is coming run
I love Garak and his games
?!?..."irregardless"?!? Are you sh!++ing me? THAT'S NOT A WORD!!!
It is...look it up..welcome to the 20s
In a way, can still blame the dominion. They were pressing in far to hard and its easy to see why. But I will quote Sun Tzu; "When you surround an enemy, let an outlet free. Never press a desperate foe to hard." What that means is dont pressure your enemy so much they get insanely desperate or they will make you pay far worst for it.
The UFP IS the shining city on the hill. Many will not be allowed to reside there.
one aspect of Garak that I wish would have been revealed in this episode was that he was a very capable pugilist, you have to assume he was more than a match for Sisko and even Worf. On the two occasions he got into a physical altercation with them I would have felt it served the story better if he had wiped the floor with them or at a minimum given them a stalemate.
I've always had two questions. First, why didn't Vremak radio Romulus after he took off and tell them of the deception? Second, how did they get the data rod to survive the explosion? Garak would have had to sneak onto the shuttle again to place it somewhere to ensure it survived OR he had TWO data rods and placed one to ensure it survived.
Coming from HUMINT, decades ago, I understand appreciate this episode. Considering it one of my favorites in the series and Andrew Robinson played the role perfect. It's like watching the Dalton Bond movies. No glory or honor or any of that nonsense that isn't present in conflict. People that are critical of the episode I'm reminder of the line from the movie "Bridge of Dragons" when Princess Halo tells Dolph Lundgren's character he didn't fight with honor. He just responds I wasn't fighting for honor. I was fighting to win.
I have held for many years the theory that Garak used a portion of the bio-mimetic gel to create the explosive to destroy Vreenak’s shuttle.
It makes a lot of sense, especially when the writers subtly include in Bashir’s protest to Sisko that the substance can be used to create organic explosives.
Now we don’t really know enough about bio-mimetic gel to say what residue it would leave after being used for that purpose. Namely something that the Romulans might detect when they investigate the wreckage, and potentially tip them off to Federation involvement. No doubt it’s left ambiguous so that the writers don’t create more questions than they answer in the story. Fair enough.
As a matter of pure speculation due to lack of on-screen explanation, it would make sense that Garak create an organic explosive. It might - stressing the word “might” - not be something Vreenak’s shuttle sensors would be able to clearly identify. Even if it did, it might not even appear unusual to those piloting the doomed craft. Or when the Romulans investigate the wreckage, even if it did leave some signature, that it would lead them to suspect or conclude Federation involvement. Specifically given how tightly the Federation controls that substance - even in war. The Romulans might overlook the realistic plausibility of Federation involvement on that basis alone. Odd as that may sound for such a notoriously paranoid culture, with an immense aptitude for deception themselves.
Simply put, we just don’t know enough to say. Though since it is a false flag operation, with Garak being a master of such things, whatever he really planted, he did it with the foremost priority of leaving no sign of Federation involvement. The importance of plausible deniability in this case is paramount. Garak would know that better than anyone. Without plausible deniability, all Sisko would have accomplished is creating a new belligerent ally for the Dominion.
What I’m curious about, since the apparent Dominion orchestrated assassination was the Romulan casus belli, is how the Romulan government used the dead Vreenak in their wartime propaganda. “Remember Soukara”? “Fight Back for Vreenak”?
Plot twist: Garak gave the gel to the Romulans to clone the senator and blow the clone up.
Loved how you brought up that he used the same lie he told sisko to use against the senator
Garak also destroyed a high-ranking Romulan's lawn by indiscriminately mowing in uneven rows, when he was a gardener.
1:29 irregardless is not a word bud
It is, or so say dictionaries alas
There's a difference between a fall and a sacrifice
But sometimes it is difficult to notice.
It's a very powerful message.
I love that episode, its my favorite of all of Trek. And named with a Batman line..
Lore, this was a great video tainted by your use of 'irregardless.' *shudder*😕😕😕😕
😋😆
Its a real word these days...welcome to the 20s
He's not unwrong.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who did in fact groan out loud upon hearing irregardless
"The dominion is resolved to win the war at any cost" I love the delicious irony of this bit of dialogue given that Garak is practicing that philosophy in his shuttle as he says it.
Why was the single best scene in all of Star Trek cut short?
The idea that Garak wanted the bio-memetic gel to make the bomb to blow up Vreenak feels pretty weak to me. He'd already smuggled one bomb on station before to blow up his own shop. He clearly has access to both explosives and the know-how to assemble and use them. I'm virtually certain that he had much simpler, cheaper, and far more certain alternatives to make a bomb to blow up Vreenak's ship than to try to con Sisko into giving him some bio-memetic gel to make the bomb.
Not when you're trying to instigate a war between 2 Galactic Super Powers. Remember, when Garak blew up his own shop he did so with the intent of being invited back into the obsidian order. His reason for doing it here wasn't so he'd be caught it was so that the dominion would be crushed before they destroyed Cardassia and presumably revenge for destroying the obsidian order.
Romulans should obviously know the senator visited ds9 prior to blowing up.
Garak might have saw the Senator as a rival and his appearance on DS9 was too good of an opportunity to let go by. Both at one (time), had been high level members of their people’s respective intelligence agencies. Sisko probably should have taken that into consideration.
Bashir said it can be used to make Biogenic weapons which I personally don't think come as the explosive type but it's possible I guess
I can't wait to hear Lore break down the events of Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges. If this is where they begin to lose their soul that episode is where we basically find out the Admirals all know about 31 and will use it as a tool as needed.
That exchange between Garak and Sisko is my favorite scene in the entirety of star trek. It's what got me to watch DS9 and eventually the rest of the series
Two of the greatest creations in the star trek world are Garak and Q, in my opinion.
Sisko does say that he notified Starfleet about his plans but is not very specific about who he told. In addition, Starfleet is full of utopian Picard types and it seems unlikely that no one would step up and try to prevent Sisko from deviating from the Starfleet directive. Sisko said it himself that his attempted deception could turn the Rumulans even more against the Federation, so who was he to make a decision that would embroil billions to his cause? The plan's rogue-ness and unilateral nature did point to the desperate state of affairs in the alpha-quadrant, but keep in mind that this is not the first time the Federation faced a dire situation either. I just felt it would have been realistic to have seen Sisko reprimanded (even to a slight degree) in a later episode to symbolically ensure that the directive was still to be taken seriously. After all, the prime directive is what makes Star Trek, STAR TREK! IMO.
Garak would never use biomimetic gel as an explosive. Something that rare is far easier to trace than a generic explosive.
Bio-Memedic Gel couldn't be used for the bomb. If even a hint of it is found, there is only 1 supplier (For some reason) in the quadrant..
It can be used to make an organic explosive. Bashir said it himself when he was talking to Sisko about his opposition to releasing it.
How the starfleet would act when it is up against the wall...this question is actually answered in a conversation between Quark and his nephew during the war. Quark gives a very accurate observation. I think that's the showrunners' opinion expressed through Quark's tongue.
A loose end, Dr. Bashir knew of the Captain taking some bio-memetic gel, Bashir knew a dangerous substance was taken and used for an unknown purpose. And Garak never tried to find out if Bashir had any suspicion over it. And Bashir being the super genius he is would easily have been able to connect the dots. So how did they keep Bashir silent on the whole thing?
They didn't, he had filled a report to starfleet who probably ignored it because they already gave the go ahead for Sisko to do dodgy shit.
What is Star fleet worth if they are conquered and dissolved? Desperate times make for desperate measures.
Your wrong! Sisco by now had stopped seeing Garak as a threat. He doesn't trust Garak and keep's a close eye on him, but he respects the intelligence that Garak has shown.
Wasnt vreenak also the rock monster in galaxy quest?
Star fleet already approved a genocide. This is not the loss of soul.
If the Universe doesn’t like what Star fleet did to save its lively hood then the Cardassians and dominion shouldn’t have forced their hand. Desperate times calls for desperate measures
Actually - I kind of suspect that Starfleet command was fine recovering evidence from Cardassia... I am not sure Sisko told them about faking it...
Ok not head cannon. Just a theory. What if the reason why the romulans would think the dominion is guilty because Koval the head of the Tal Shiar who was "opposed" to the treaty, was actually aiding in convincing the Continuing Committee in the joining the war. We know Koval was working for Starfleet Intelligence, quite possibly working for Section 31, and since he helped with the Federation with their war, the Federation helped him to get rid of a political enemy on Romulus ergo Senator Cretack.
I've had twenty years to think about what I would have done if I were in Capt. Sisko's position. In all this time, I've experienced a lot. I would have definitely done EXACTLY what Sisko did in this same situation. I lives of billions is worth more than the lives of three men and my self-respect. Also in twenty years I've learned that we can all be redeemed. Sisko and Starfleet did what it had to do to survive. I know I would have. What about the rest of you.
As a friendly reminder, in the episode S7E24 The Dogs of War Odo gets rather upset because of the whole 'genocide against the Founders thing' and as a consequence we find out that Starfleet, which is now formally and officially aware of the genocide... and Starfleet flat out refuses to give the cure to the Dominion. Not saying that's right (or wrong) but it's worth keeping in mind.
I don't know; Starfleet has had any number of times where they've conducted espionage. Even in TOS Kirk infiltrated the Romulan ship to steel the cloaking device that one time. Several episodes in TNG have characters doing some pretty cloak-and-dagger stuff. Ideals are great for the stay-at-home types, safe on Earth; space is a dangerous place.
Anyone else found it odd, that the Senator decided to carry message of that deliberate deceit in person and not on a "secure channel"?
Is that plausable or appropriate?
Odd way to close, but good video as usual.
I think it's also reasonable, based on your analysis, that while the Dominion War affected the powers of the Alpha and Beta quads, this was also Garak's long game...to first get back at those who'd exiled him from his home, but later on just try to save anyone, even anything, of his former homeland. It was convenient that the Federation/Starfleet, KDF, RSE, etc. had something to lose as well, but it was his imperative to save his world and his people.
Settling some scores and flexing his "tailoring" along the way was just how he got the job done.
Perhaps the leaders of Starfleet were not human or humanoid anymore. Maybe the Founders became Starfleet and lost the war intentionally to make the other world's believe they won but are now controlled by the Founders.
As James T. Kirk once said, “Risk is part of the game if you wanna sit in that chair.”
Whats the point of values and morals if theres no one around to practice them?
I wouldn't be shocked to know that Section 31 knew all about Garak's plan, or at least knew better than anyone what he was doing to Sisko. Its the same sort of crap that Sloane does manipulating Dr Bashir's morality and sense of honor in order to get what they wanted.
by the domion founder own word after the k;ingons and federation wore finished they would attack the romulains
Inter arma eneim silent legas, in the time of war the law Falls silent.
I don’t think the federation has lost it soul or ideals by sanctioning this operation. I think the higher up finally realized that fighting the dominion using a rule book that the dominion doesn’t is like playing soccer the traditional way while the opposing team is using their hands to throw the ball. The Dominion didn’t care about the ideals or ethics. There were no non-combatant no soft targets. The federation wouldn’t shoot down escape pods the dominion would. How do you beat someone like that? Only by say fuck you to those ideals were they able to win. Inter arma enim silent leges. Both the saying and the episode are great examples of this. In times of war, you can be concerned with the laws or your high ideals. People are dying around and you are clinging to those morals will result in more deaths. Nietzsche said it best what is done in war is beyond good and evil. Good and evil have no place in a fight for survival. The first episode with Keevon, Sisko said it is about survival when it comes to them or us there is no choice. What makes this one any different?
Agreed. Being weak, dumb and pasciftistic in the face of a VERY aggressive enemy that either is intent to wipe you out or only permit you to live as a total slave and puppet is NO WAY to either live nor fight them. The Federation was stupid for thinking such for a long time
@@robertagu5533 Another good episode with the survival first ethics and ideals later was the one where they found a down Dominion Ship with a changeling on it. Sisko wasn't above finding what the dominion was looking for to use against them. Only when he had the upper hand and his survival assured did he revert back to his ideals. He allowed the Vorta to take the remains and leave. According to Nietzchean thinking, Sisko was still a good person. Just like the Federation. In the end, they didn't demand the Dominion become a vassal state of the dominion or a call for them to elease their vassals. I am pretty sure they took somethings but in the end, the Federation allowed them to go in peace. The survival of the federation assured they reverted back to their high ideals. Good. If they had pressed the attack and wiped the dominion out or made them disband and enslave them, they would have been evil or the villains.
"The Federation needs men like you doctor men of conscience, men of principle, and men who could sleep at night. You're also the reason Section 31 exists. Someone also should exist to protect me like you from a universe that doesn't share sense of right and wrong."
--Luther Sloan, Section 31
I think cbs is going to set phasers to kill lore but hey the video was excellent as always
....why'd the episode abruptly end?
🖖
Katie: so why does baldy and the walking iPod (Data) use phasers against the Borg when they don't work? For a evolved human Picard is sure dumb!