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Dominion War: The day Starfleet let Evil win
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- Опубликовано: 3 мар 2019
- What's up Lore Masters,
This is a continuation of a deep dive into the Dominion War. Be sure to watch it from the beginning to get the best experience!
• Dominion War: Golden A...
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It's a little known fact but Gul Dukat's mom was named Martha.
Why did you say that name? WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!?!?
Save gul Martha 🤣
I fucking lost it over this...
As well weyouns cloning tube was number M.a.r. 7 .h.a
"I wish you hadn't done that. He was the last Weyoun."
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: We've made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our space and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further! And *I* will make them pay for what they've done!
Star Trek: First Contact (1996)
_That seems like the correct number of lights_
underrated comment.
To be fair I believe when he spoke these words the Dominion “Cold War” was in full swing. Shortly after this the Dominion war would start in earnest. Federation would have probably already been at war with the Klingons and it would have been abundantly clear that the Golden Age was over. In fact the only great power of the Alpha quadrant who hadn’t been knocked on their ass at this point were the Romulus, but they would be involved soon enough. “Computer delete that entire personal log.”
So yeah I’m pretty sure Picard views had changed a lot since TNG because since TNG went off the air DS9 writers had full control of the Alpha quadrant. And boy did they take full advantage of that fact.
Sir Patrick a great dramatic actor.
@@WesStacey
Romulus/Romulans were Beta quadrant. Just saying
That was when Picard finally admits that, yes: The Federation Starfleet is the Fed's Military (they have no other, the planetary defense forces are weak in comparison, even the ones of Vulcan, Andoria and Earth!)...he was one of those hippies before, who thought that major wars were a thing of the past and that everybody would be happy to just talk stuff out...yeah, sorry man, stop taking them drugs and drinking the coolaid!
Again, I have to point out, the Federation economy was fine during the Cardassian Border war, while the Cardassian economy was utterly destroyed, with them having to sell archaeological treasures to keep afloat. It's hell on Starfleet's front line troops, but it does make it to where the Federation is intact, and has more options on the table, while the Cardassians, the instigators of such a war, look weak to their own people, and have to rededicate resources just to look strong.
Yes, the Federation took a bloody nose, but the Cardassian Union seemed to break both arms in order to deliver that bloody nose.
And after that, diplomatically, Bajor was liberated, the Cardassians did have internal reform, and their military government did turn into a civilian one, with reparations made to the Bajoran government, diplomatic scientific missions with the Federation, and they seemed to be on a path towards becoming an ally of the Federation.
Then the Changelings infiltrated the Klingon Empire and Gowron decided to play conqueror. That kind of screwed up the long game the Federation was going for by reforming the Cardassian Empire by showing them that they couldn't win against the Federation through brute force.
It did annoy me every time that Starfleet's officers had undergone unjust attempted murder, abduction, torture or attack, they just shrugged their shoulders and were often quite willing to abandon them. When they could have beamed up the entire leadership of the aliens who did those things and ship them off to Earth to stand trial, at the very least.
The Cardassians were no more inclined to join the Dominion when they showed up than anyone else. The Founders read the situation very closely and went with the best option for conditions on the ground. Had those conditions been different, they would have charted another course. Firmer checks on Cardassia would by no means preclude Dominion expansion into the Alpha Quadrant.
Well the Dominion was going to invade no matter what. It was the Founders will to bring all solids under their control. The Cardassians were an easy target to bend. Probably if they hadn't been willing to form an alliance the Founders would have continued stirring up conflict between the major galactic powers and look for another minor government to latch on to.
Jacob Clark Exactly
aperson22222 and unless the fed had absolute control over the Cardasians they still would have been a target for the Dominion and a likely asset even if reduced in potential power.
They were receptive to the dominions offers specifically because they were on the back foot relative to the other quadrant powers. Further reducing their standing would only make them more likely to take up any offer.
There... are... 4... lights!
no 3 they are 3 lights
@@zealotmaster1 5 lights mate
BirdOPrey5 What you didn't see was one of the guards afterwards whispering to the interrogator, "Here Larry....hate to say it but he was right you've got a bulb out mate!"
let me put on my glasses …. I see 25 lights and a panda
@@ASTheOneAndOnly Larry Madred. Brilliant
The Vulcans had a major influence on the Diplomatic Services of the Federation.
Curse those space elves.
I'd put more blame on the Grazerite president, damn those pacifistic space hippie herbivores.
The minstrel boy to the war is gone
In the ranks of death you'll find him;
His father's sword he hath girded on
And his wild harp slung behind him;
"Land of Song!" cried the warrior bard
(Should) "Tho' all the world betrays thee
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard
One faithful harp shall praise thee!"
The Minstrel fell! But the foeman's chain
Could not bring that proud soul under;
The harp he lov'd ne'er spoke again
For he tore its chords asunder;
And said "No chains shall sully thee
Thou soul of love and brav'ry!
Thy songs were made for the pure and free
They shall never sound in slavery!
Just felt it was right to leave this here.
The song from the first episode where we met the Cardassians? Appropriate, very appropriate.
"The Wounded"
Cardassians - *_enslave Bajor_*
Federation - nah, *its fine*
Kinda reminds me of that time the allies gave Czechoslovakia and Poland to the nazis hoping to appease the Reich.
@@theeternalchronicler3072 Czechoslovakia, yes. They did declare war over Poland. On the other hand, they let the Soviets keep the part of Poland they conquered as Germny's ally in 1939.
Klingons- rightfully declare war on opposing genocidal nation.
Federation- HERETICS!!!
Shit wrong franchise...
Prime Directive and all that?
@@Jalu3 whats a Prime Directive? oh wait, thats right - it doesnt apply if the captain is righteous and heroic enough or something lol
*"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"*
Hydrogen One And do nothing they shall.
evil shall always triumph because good is dumb.
Hydrogen One
"The path to hell is paved with good intentions."
@NOT YOU - You misspelled Obama
Sounds like a good enough reason to invade a country on false pretenses to me!
That intro makes me so happy for some reason, lol
Is it the lens flares
J.j. fanboy jar jar jinks actually star wars not star trek jfuduhuuu
Billions of lives lost.
Nobody won.
Yea right there should be consequences to Power and territory
The Federation won. Once the changeling surrendered, it was over. They drove the dominion from the Alpha Quadrant and were not conquered. I would call that a win.
@@MonteLeeMyPOV, that depends on whether people look at the broader consequences from a geopolitical and military science perspective. The Federation did slightly win BUT with a very high cost of life (basically a pyrrhic victory for Starfleet), which likely made minor Federation members likely question the core member planets. (Ex: Look at how the Republic treated the outer rim colonies in Star Wars leading up to the Clone Wars - most of which were non-human vassals to the Republic)
Another good example is how in the 1853 Crimean War ended for both the Allies & the Austro-Hungarians and how it created the very environment towards the stage of WW1. Like the Dominion, Russia still recovered amid losing from the war. It thus made the Austrians become isolated, and a declining power like the Dominion did to the Klingon Empire, and both became dependent on other powers to be more relevant.
Overall, the war between the Dominion and the Federation only acknowledged the fact that other powers out there (amid the decline of the Borg) wouldn't accept the Federation's desire for full integration into the United Federation of Planets, seeing how some members of the Federation bent laws and violated other civilizations sovereignty in the name of their utopian liberal exploration.
The Crimean War unleashed new volatility in great power politics, and Europe would see a series of small, nasty wars that would shape the 20th century. Honestly, the Dominion or some semblance of it would likely come back stronger than ever to seek retribution against the Federation, whether it be expanding its power without the wormhole into the Alpha Quadrant. The Federation would spend decades trying to restabilize the sector, preserving other powers that suffered from the war.
At the same time, the Dominion would learn from this conflict and adopt new ways to defeat their rival, just like how the Russians would learn from the Crimean War up to today amid Putin's war in Ukraine and the division inside NATO on what to do amid the rising tide of opponents on the world stage. Just like WW1, there were no clear winners overall, but simply an unnecessary chain of events that would create more tension and potentially more war.
Fortifying the only access point to your region of space is something a rational power does. If Starfleet was even close to rational, after the discovery of the dominion the wormhole would have a spacedock level station, defense platforms, and a substantial war fleet on standby. Every conceivable method to collapse the wormhole would have been ready to implement at the first sign of a military incursion with multiple tiers of back ups in case of 5th column subversion.
lol, Maybe the Federation didn't have any Tribbles to beam onto Cardassian ships (Grin)
WHERE THEY'LL BE
NO TRIBBLE
AT ALL
.
Shout out to Major Grin?
did he also have funny skits of the fed beaming repulsive stuff onto enemy ships, lol.
That would be awesome
If only the Federation ships could just beat back and even overpower the Cardassians...
It’s because of this channel I’m now rewatching TNG and DS9 on Netflix
Im rewatching TNG, DS9 and Voy
You brought up some great points about the failures of Starfleet leading up to the Dominion War, especially those stemming from the Golden Age. But there were a few things I'd like to bring up that I don't believe I've heard too much comment on yet.
-First, GENERAL ORDER 24.
Here's an example for those not familiar with it:
ruclips.net/video/Ysk-jF4ptQA/видео.html
What isn't shown here is that Scotty is fully willing to carry out this order. Even though it horrified the Enterprise bridge crew and he didn't want to HAVE to do it, he contacted the council of the planet below and let them know their cities and installations had been fed into their fire control systems and he would devastate the surface of their planet if the hostages were not released.
This I think is the biggest example of the difference between the pre-Golden Era and it's height of the early days of TNG. There is no way in hell the captain and crew of the Enterprise D would do anything like this. The fact that this Order even existed is clear evidence of the constant conflict Starfleet had been involved with since it's inception and the mindset of Starfleet at this time.
The radical shift from being prepared to go from peaceful negotiation to full-on conflict when needed to becoming so engrained in the 'Peace at all cost' mindset I think is a huge part of Starfleet's failures. Their insistence on proving they'd 'evolved' from their desire for conflict led to a time where they willingly turned a blind eye to the suffering of others, even their own people, to prove they were better then they once were.
-Second, Starfleet's ship design philosophy.
There's been a LOT of talk about how strange Starfleet's ship design philosophy is but I think there's a point that gets overlooked. Unlike every other race and government outside of possibly the Ferengi, the Federation and specifically Starfleet seems to focus on building a small number of 'Elite' ships, ones made up of the best of all the technology the Federation has to offer at that moment. Rather then building a large number of smaller, specific-purpose ships requiring a small crew, Starfleet likes to build a handful of 'super-ships', capable of doing everything.
The original Constitution class is a great example of this. Originally only 12 being built, they were considered to be the 'Queens' of the Fleet, from standing in the front line of battle to spending years away from home exploring the far reaches of the galaxy. However, this led to a frequent situation where ships like the Enterprise were the 'only ship in the quadrant' to handle emergencies and hostile events.
During the Golden Age this idea of focusing on the construction of only a few new ships with every new toy stuffed in and refurbishing old designs for every day use like the Reliant and Excalibur would culminate in the Galaxy class, possibly the absolute peak of hubris made form. It also meant that for a while, Starfleet just simply didn't have the ships and personnel to handle all of the obligations it would have to take on if they took up a more aggressive stance. So it ended up with them letting a second-rate power like the Cardassians dictate terms as if the balance of power was even. And speaking of personnel...
-Third, Starfleet's recruitment policy during the Golden Age.
This is something I found to be utterly amazing when it came up. I know that going to Starfleet Academy means you graduate as an officer, but several episodes of TNG shows a ridiculous degree of difficulty for people to get into and stay in the Academy during this time. The episode showing Wesley trying to pass the entrance exam and showing him FAILING to make the cut with only FOUR total candidates and only allowing ONE to pass was just mind-blowing to me.
The idea that at this time Starfleet has gone from the TOS era as having capable but flawed individuals being able to join up and become part of the fleet to TNG where Starfleet is considered to be such an elite organization that it's easier to get into an top-level college then go to the Academy shows another degree of hubris that's insane. It's no wonder Starfleet focuses only on a few elite ships at a time at this point. They don't have the officers to man the ships they'd need.
Anyways, interested in what people think about these points, and if I did miss an earlier discussion on some or all of these, I apologize.
Hello, and thanks for responding to my comments. I appreciate the feedback.
I just wanted to touch on some of the points you brought up.
One of the main things about this discussion is that it's based on what we see on screen and on film as being canon and working from there. Up until the Borg truly arrive and become an ongoing threat, we really only see older-model ships and the occasional Galaxy-class ship show up, and it's pretty well established that for some time, the Galaxy class is considered to be THE front-line ship of Starfleet. Also, that there aren't that many of them. You do see more designs like the Akira and Defiant show up as time passes, but the idea of the Golden Age is that until Starfleet gets shocked down to it's very core, they don't see the need for smaller, more purpose-based ships. They seem to adhere to the 'One crisis, one ship' philosophy that's a holdover from the days of the Constitution class. And considering that the Cardassian Border Wars happened during a time when the Federation and Starfleet was trying to gear up for other threats, that they just didn't have the ships available or desire to open up another hostile front, even with a comparatively weak regional power.
As for General Order 24, it's been established that there are General Orders in Starfleet, some of which are pretty grim. And having 24 be something Kirk made up, that would have to mean that at some point, Kirk made up this fake directive with specific instructions to wipe out a planet's surface and instructed all of his senior staff in it to the point where all he'd have to do is shout out 'General Order 24! In two hours!' and they'd know exactly what to do. I'd like to point out that even if this was the case, the fact that he DID have something like this ready to go is probably an even bigger indicator of the difference between TOS mindset and the Golden Age mindset of TNG.
@@tetsuhara8737 Only general order 24 is pretty grim. memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Starfleet_General_Orders_and_Regulations. I'd say its more than pretty grim. Wiping out all life on a planet is just bizarre by any standard, and probably why it was never mentioned again. What did the frogs at the pond three oceans over do to kirk for example lol.
@@paareth It's actually an axiom of military doctrine. Scorched Earth, which has existed since before the Roman's salted the earth, ending Carthage forever. The cold war was literally a poker game with the stakes being no less than GO24. Just my humble opinion.
@@sid2112 Let's break this down a bit. Scorched earth can be used over a fixed landscape because you have to travel over the land. On a planet you can just go past it. Not to mention lots of hand waving science where supplies materialize out of nothing, and can do so from anywhere including a lifeless asteroid or rock.
Maybe what you say was the writers intent though who knows.
Man I have to say your channel keeps getting better and better. By far my favorite sci fi channel. Great work man , and thank you for giving trek love.
Thanks ;) I try!
The Federation would have to be very very selective if it chose to nation build. They also have the baggage of centuries of conflicts on Earth and the rebuilding required as well as the effects of the Vulkan Romulan schism. Post War Japan and Germany are the best possible outcomes. The middle east and Iraq are the worst and most likely outcomes for the majority of these scenarios. They have good reason to stay as neutral as possible. Then there's context. Remember, Roddenberry created the series and based Starfleet's policies during an era when colonial powers were losing their holdings like Africa which began to have vicious internal wars, the iron curtain was going up, the Arab Israeli wars were in full swing and of course Vietnam. He saw what was happening when larger powers stuck their mitts in places they didn't belong.
However, South America and Africa continue to be plagued by interference. If you were a leader of a recently independent African nation, and you acted in the best intersts of your poeple without pandering to France, the UK, or the US, you would find yourelf shot dead before long. Thomas Sankara of Burfina Faso is a perfect example. Lumumba and Nkrumah are other examples.
@@goranmihajlovic6179 no you wouldn't.
There is no benefit to them to do that
China is literally colonizing Africa
Britian, France, Belgium, Netherlands, South Korea, and etcetera.
Germany and Japan were hardly the only examples of success
@@draconisthewyvern3664 actully yes france *heavily* releys on cheap resources from funny enough thier old coloneieys and are known for interfering alot, us hasnt significantly interfered since the cold war , and the Angola conflict, and yes china is doing the exact same thing, there are also European and American companies that also interfere in the politics as well such as backing pro slavery govt is very common for diamonds indusitry ,chocaltte, and coffee.
@@Yingyanglord1 there’s a difference between trade and discounts and china literally owning the airport, mines, and establishing Chinese “company” towns across africa
Chief O'Brien sums up the Federation mindset very well when he engages Garak on Empok Nor "I'm not a soldier anymore I'm an engineer." it is a good example of how even the veterans of a war just a few years before fail to understand that war is necessary even when through into a situation where there own men are being killed by a hostile force.
Starfleet does not make decisions, the Federation Council does. But yes we have not seen or skipped over these things in the series.
1-Klingon subject races. 2. Kira gets too pally with the Federation too quickly.
Kira didn't get too pally with the Feds too quickly. That's what bribes do to people. (Quark never gave Kira a proper bribe.)
Once TNG started delving into Klingon politics, there was little to justify an alliance with the Klingons other than for pragmatic reasons to counter the Romulans. The Federation and the Klingon Empire had almost nothing philosophically in common.
IDK, Klingon subject races were pretty similar to non-human Fed member worlds, just with different standards of living. Humans seemed to be the people who were truly in control, while the other worlds essentially gave them resources for protection.
You could probably make an argument that it wasn't really the "bravery" of the Vulcans or even the Andorians that made the Federation become respected by the Klingons, it was the human's ability to adapt and overcome. The way the federation worked, they could be talking peacefully with you one moment, go on a whole slaughterfest of half your population the next through any number of underhanded tactics (such as let's take out an aqueduct in TNG and dehydrate 25,000 people to death so we only have to carry 2,000 instead.) while maintaining a friendly face, and then making it look like you were to blame.
I'd say the Klingons hated the underhanded tactics of the Federation, but they admired how powerful the Federation really was (if they actually worked at it.)
Zach Omara It would be interesting to see just how this status quo came to be, starfleet predates the federation and was wholly a human operation. Then the federation was founded and the exploratory and military arm of the federation was somehow chosen to be the human based starfleet with its badly outmatched ships. This seems to have led directly to starfleet being largely human staffed, based around earth, and visually at least consisting of ships of human design.
Could it be that the decision to assign earth starfleet this seemingly impossible role was meant to render the federation relatively toothless? A bit like the early United States was setup with a weak federal government and nearly no standing military as a means to protect the member states from overreach?
It still doesn’t explain what happened to the various fleets of the other member races and why they never seem to rally when their whole union is in grave danger.
@@DrewLSsix Because that would require more makeup than the TV budgets of the time would allow for on a consistent basis. Probably. Or the writers were afraid that focusing on non-human characters that don't look human enough would alienate audiences.
Mate these are great videos. I could actually imagine an angry James Kirk arguing for intervention when you were discussing the occupation of Bajor.
"Let's be fair here. To expect Starfleet to get involved in this, has a few consequences." THAT is the biggest understatement I've seen in your vids.
The TOS has always been the most entertaining to me because of it's shows emphasized tactical situations (vs. strategic "big picture" stuff). It seems to me writing the series plots which dealt with strategic political matters habitually re-created Earth's past cast into the Trek universe...instead of real exploration and action, so many of the story lines made a point to rehash the mistakes our species has made only to make them again on a galactic scale as part of the Federation. Even Voyager, which should have been almost pure exploration and dealing with tactical situations, would get itself mired in the "is it right/fair to do to these other species what we are contemplating to do, even for our survival?" frame of mind. Just my thoughts...
4:43 to 5:06 thank you I've always had that exact same thoughts... that liberating Bajor and any other world enslaved by the Cardassians during the board wars where legitimate objectives not just to free the enslaved races but weaken the Cardassians ability to make war.
Yeah it's the futuristic, multiple-planet spanning Empire equivalent of when the Allies bombed German factories and took out dams to deny the enemy access to vital supplies, such as the tools and repairs required for their tanks - as well as restricting how many replacements they can build and bring to the frontline. 100% a valid military target and a massive missed opportunity to end the war even as it began or deny them the ability to start war in the first place.
If memory serves me, the federation had sent ambassadors to work with the cardassians during the bajor occupation. As a matter of cannon, these talks were the basis for the cardassians leaving bajor. Klingon slaves were also "reduced" due to the treat of algeron(had a moment, meant the khitomer accords) if I remember. As for the remans, it's true the federation didn't assist there until they found out about them. As u know, information on Romulus is very scarce. Thanks for the vid!
Wait. Your ship is also the USS Martha?
No. Mine is the ISS Martha. Now go get in your pain tube, false me...
"Why'd you Say that Name!?"...'ding'
Oh my gosh I cannot agree more on "Suddenly Human." In any realistic drama, Picard would have thrown his career away with that decision, particularly since that kid was the grandson of a Starfleet admiral.
The Federation, in its endless quest for peace, agrees to the most puzzling and even humiliating terms accords. The Treaty of Algeron is a prime example; what could possibly have been worth swearing off cloaking technology when the Romulans were permitted to use it?
The Federation had a lot more in common with the Ferengi then the other major powers. It took the Federation facing destruction by the Dominion to change their approach to War.
The main issue is exactly what you said. All of the Federation’s neighbors did the same thing. They couldn’t stop the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc without all of them taking down the Federation together.
Suddenly human was solved (better or worse) with the choice, defaulted by Picard, to the child. He chose what he knew. (Obviously)
Just a theory: The Cardassians used wolf pack tactics regarding thier ship capabilities. Encountering mainstay Excelsior and Miranda class ships, this might have convinced the Federation take a defensive, or at most, limited engagements with Cardassia during that time. With the introduction of the glass...(ahem) Galaxy class and Nebula class, Starfleet stays just ahead or on par with Klingon & Romulan ships, and could still handle Cardassian fleet tactics better than thier ageing fleet mates.
Out of curiosity, anyone ever play Starfleet Academy for Windows?
If the Federation had stood up against the enslaving powers, you could also say: "You either die as hero, or live long enough to be the villian."
So like in the game Stellaris, if the federation was in the business of nation building ...that’d make them democratic crusaders wouldn’t it?
Like, just for the outro. Martha!
Disapproving of something and standing against it are two very different things.
I concur.
Excellent video on the dangers of complacency.
Much tighter intro, and quite an interesting take. Thank you.
By that time Picard was scared to death of the Borg.
Scared yes, but more than willing and able to fight them and win
After seeing the actions of the high command of the fleet through the eyes of Picard and the eyes of Sisko I see that the Federation has more power than any other faction, but it is flawed. To describe this I would use a phrase, "I thought I was invincible because I was fighting for something right." The Fedration could lead a large part of the Galaxy, but it does not have the "Soul" of the star fleet of Archer's time. The federation does not have the same "Humanity" that it had in the beginning.
But wait?!? What about Martha, wife of Mogh?
The federation constantly fights with one arm tied behind their backs.
I really love your channel, I think it would be interesting to see you compare the Federation and Starfleet to its conceptual big brother, the Culture and Contact from Ian M Banks' novels. They're essentially optimized, libertine, interventionist post-scarcity scifi humanists of a similar vein, but with very different execution, almost the Borg with the Federation's leisure culture.
The Federation's "border wars" meant they were simply happy with stalemates to the detriment of the long term consequences. They could have crushed Cardassia if they put any effort into it. The Cardassians were starving and technologically inferior.
And let's not forget poorly trained.
My day is made
One thing to consider is that by the time of the 24th century Starfleet was now just an arm of the Federation, they could not act autonomously any more. The evidence is seen in DS9 two part episode "Homefront"-"Paradise Lost" in Season 4 and the fact that many in Starfleet left to join the Maqui when the DMZ was set up.
As ever, an interesting analysis and plausible explanation of known canon on this subject. I always found O'Brien's reaction to his Cardassian War experiences a striking contrast to Picard's: the former was arguably more traumatized but ultimately dealt with that stress and emerged with a very pragmatic, realistic (albeit with some lingering bigotry) view of the Cardassians. While Picard seemed almost desperate in trying to both stay true to (pre-Dominion War) Federation ideals and acknowledge that the Cardassians were using those ideals against it.
If one can accept this analysis as valid (as I mostly can), then in many ways Picard epitomizes the intellectual / political paralysis that gripped the Federation leadership at the end of the Golden Age. Throughout TNG, he cleaves mercilessly to ideals like the Prime Directive, but at great emotional and moral cost. Many of the dilemmas he faced had no "good" solution, but too often his idealism arguably made things worse.
2:26 It'd be much more evil if they sent a distress call and when Starfleet ship comes in, hit the warp speed button right through the Starfleet starship. It'd cause a single unmanned ship. (They learned this from the UNSC.)
It's also telling that the Federation's Flagship and brand spanking new Galaxy Class starship was not used (that we know of) in the Border War. They were more interested in their then most advanced starship providing relief for colonies and conducting diplomacy than defending their colonies. In other words, the Federation was looking to expand more than it was looking to protect itself.
Only error I saw was the lens flare washing out the video`s title in the intro. The rest? Solid gold. Excellent video.
Uh, dude, the Federation couldn’t require the free of the vorta/Gem’Hadar as a stipulation of victory. Because the Federation didn’t defeat the Dominion in that sense. They simply banished the dominion from the Alpha Quadrant. If they wanted to “free” them, they would have to continue the war by invading the gamma Quadrant. Not to mention kill more of them than they would free. On top of that, you can’t free a slave that doesn’t want to be freed (at least of that slave has no free will).
Actually if you look at Deep Space Nine the Federation and Cardassian war was probably more comparable to let's say.
Cardassian ships backing away from a fight they can't win.
Because Cardassian behavior seems more comparable to only attack when victory is guaranteed.
So the war between the Federation and Cardassian probably more looked like.
-War of the Diplomatic representatives.
-With a back drop of Border skirmishes. Where Federation ships won mostly.
-Cardassian spies taking hostages and interrogations. With infiltration.
-Maybe with a you can count on one hand worth of major battles.
The reason why you can say this theory is sound is.
-The Federation primarily looks for Diplomatic solutions and always tried to avoid out right conquest.
-Cardassian behavior was mostly shown to be use Interrogations and spies behind enemy lines. Even Garreck bragged about his interrogations with another Cardassian.
Also you can see in deep space nine how they only attacked the station when it was alone. But once the Enterprise or another Federation ship arrived they would run. So there is clear sign the Cardassian attitude towards war is to only attack weaker ships.
I don't think it's too far fetched to see the Cardassians being so bent on military power that they became unable to sustain themselves. There are real-world references today, however, Some apparently 'Hate' politics, so that's all I'll say here.
Great vid lore and crew. B)
Zarcondeegrissom The USSR is prime example of being too big to sustain.
@@kabob0077 no thats an example of social discord. The administration did not keep in touch with the people.
and they didn't quite implode quite like Venezuela is.
Yeah, I think it's hinted that the Cardies basically spent so much into the military that they basically broke their economy and well, time to put that military to conquest and profit!!! Nevermind that their tech was so crap compared to the UFP that only their political policies prevented them from steamrolling them since we all know the Feddies are the literal "sleeping giants" and are unstoppable. No wonder the Q were trying to slow down their development..... and love the God Emperor tidbit in the end credits. LOL
Duane Elliott They also spent a shit ton of resources on weapons, useless vehicle designs (Look up the rocket powered, crop dusting plane), did not keep in touch with the people as you said, and they kept having internal fighting in the Communist Party... And that's not even touching some of the things Stalin thought up, like the Purge of most of the actual competent command staff and his paranoia on there being others in the Party trying to kill him (even if said people were entirely loyal).
Great video mate. I think it actually highlights the writers mis interpreting the Prime Directive which in TOS only forbade interference with pre warp civilizations, not warp capable civilizations. In TGN the prime Directive seems to have been Overpowered. But ignoring real world reasons and focusing only on the narrative, everything you say in this video is correct.
I think the best example of this was the Maqui the federation spent several seasons trying to figure out what to do with the maqui but could never actually solve the problem. It was a problem of their own making that could have been prevented but the only way to solve after the fact would have been difficult, forced relocation enforced by death. Of course the federation understandably had no stomach for that so it just simmered under the surface occasionally boiling over but never actually solved....until the Cardassians joined the Dominion and it was “solved” for the federation...in the most devastating possible outcome.
I gat the sense that the writer wrote themselves into a corner by creating the maqui and then making them so relatable there really wasn’t a good way to solve the problem.
another great intro, your editing skills have improved much since your start. keep up the good work mate.
I assume that starfleet in the peace era was spread very thin indeed, if the romulans were still unknown knowns and the borg hadn't knocked on the door of earth, then the cardassians might have expected a larger task force, as it was a simple built up on the romulan border for defence of nearby worlds, in-actions in other regions due to come tensions, and the borg losses of ships, and resulting security status required, means the regional forces near cardassian space and occupied bajor were limited, no or few ships from other regions were available. This is my opinion, not complete canon, but a thought. and even in that area of the federation, moving your whole fleet of a few dozen ships might leave vast areas of space undefended and open for conflict, and not just with the cardassians. also, early interactions with many powers in that area of space suggested that general security mattered more than winning a single war against the cardies. somewhat unknown quantities, like the ferengi, were still a cause for concern for many in starfleet. and leaving large areas unprotected might mean these lesser powers try to make a grab and starfleet has to fight various wars against a mobilised cardassian union, a seemingly powerful ferengi alliance which was on par with starfleet, and others, such as talarian republic.
You have to appreciate the Enterprise D was a long, long way from the boarder wars. For most of the first couple seasons of TNG the Enterprise spent most of it's time exploring space north of the Federation which would explain why they had so many encounters with the Romuluns, Ferragni and eventually the Borg so for the crew the war was something that was being dealt with by others and was a distant problem.
I don't think there any official maps depicting boarders of the various powers during the TNG timeline but on most unofficial maps has the Federation at it's widest points is over 10,000 ly's in size. Which means if the Federation was at war and Starfleet was told to pool all it's ships you had to pull ships from exploration duties it could take years for them to get them where you need it which isn't feasible (just getting a message out to them would be a mission).
If I remember correctly, Federation Space is massive. In both, TOS and TNG it appears Starfleet isn't even properly organized into different fleets protecting sectors of space. Instead, ships are send out there alone on 3, 5 or more years lasting missions. It is expected from a captain of each Starfleet ship to act as a diplomat of the Federation, they even have a lot of freedom by acting on their own without contacting Starfleet Command.
What does that mean? Each ship is on its own. Each captain with his or her crew is mostly alone out there and is expected to react to any given situation accordingly. They're alone out there, the nearest ship is usually several hours or even days away, traveling maximum warp.
That's the opposite how a "true" fleet should work. And no, it has nothing to do with "Starfleet is a peacekeeping force and the Federation is experiencing a Golden Age". They're doing that since Captain Archer's era. No wonder they got beaten badly in earlier wars: they simply had not enough ships in the sector (forces spread too thin) and after scrambling a fleet, a non-combat-experienced, administrative Admiral takes the lead instead of a war veteran. Which ALSO explains why Starfleet seem to suffer from a fair share of ill-suited and plain incompetent, obstructive Admirals.
That's one of the things even J.J. Abrams got right and the makers of Discovery: Starfleet always shows up with less numbers and less prepared than the other guys. They always have to scramble a fleet at a minutes notice (Minutemen Fleet FTW) and always appear only to gain the upper hand if the current show's flagship shows up.
When they finally got the idea even a peace keeping force needs a proper fleet organization, it almost was too late. Nearly 200 years to be precise, because they could have avoided much civilian casualties and own forces dead. Once they GOT the idea they're more than a match for Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians AND Breen the same time. However, Starfleet had to lose 600 ships or something to learn that lesson in the Dominion War ...
The Galaxy Class, Nebula Class, and New Orleans Class may have been ships created in the diplomatic, Golden Age era as you say, but they were a major improvement on the ships they were replacing and supplementing. While never stated, it would be very likely that the Cardassian Wars were an impetus to bring them out to replace aging ship classes.The Galaxy Class was meant to take the place of Ambassador Class ships as the heavy cruisers, in part to keep up with the big Romulan warbirds. I remember reading somewhere that the Akira Class was a test bed 'concept-ship' prototype designed and built due to the Cardassian War. Of course, as a ship that could be described as a warship, there was little intention to ever commission it, let alone mass produce it until later. But Star Fleet was at least concerned that they were falling behind, and building ships that are NOT pure warships is akin to fighting with one arm tied.Star Fleet had a LOT of Miranda Class or Miranda-like and Excelsior Class ships they were still using. I rather suspect that Star Fleet had a low level military budget for a long time. The Cardassians were a major, but inferior power which proved that old ships and tech could be challenged by technically inferior interstellar civilizations.To be fair, the Excelsior Class was like a super-heavy cruiser which apparently became a common design and became a strictly mid-weight cruiser by the era of TNG. So, it would seem to have been a big a success, and an effective deterrent and explorer for many decades. With the addition of the Ambassador as the new heavy cruiser, and Excelsiors becoming common, that was probably ample force for a long time, and even a matter of protest among the peaceniks?Also, Star Fleet was extremely committed to diplomacy as its first line of defense, with military force Waaay in the background. Again, with no pure warships backing them up being a matter of (perverse?) pride. I don't think that there's much doubt that it helped the Federation's reputation and cooled tensions, but the Federation was largely ceding the use of intimidation to correct wrongs.If I remember correctly, Data even outright stated in "The Last Outpost" that Star Fleet and the Federation allowed wrongs to exist and the Strong to defeat the Weak as they stayed out of unnecessary conflicts.
Great video Lore. PS: LOVE the new intros, beautifully crafted
TNG was showing how willing humanity was to turn the other cheek in order to preserve the overall peace for the Federation as a whole. DS9 finally showed the realism of constantly putting up with attacks made the Federation take an aggressive approach in their style of ships and then by laying out the minefields which the Domnion used as an excuse to start the war
The Federation's very existence is dependent on trust with unaligned systems, races and powers. All those systems that they make contact with need to know that unlike the Romulans or the Klingons, the Federation really will leave them alone if that's what they want. The Federation really will respect treaties scrupulously. And ultimately, the Federation really won't just take over if they decide to join.
Remember the Federation is like Swiss cheese, unlike the other powers. It has pockets of systems and minor powers that aren't members scattered throughout its territory which could be a real problem if that trust wasn't there, and which clamping down on would threaten the goodwill of members that joined based on that trust.
It doesn't really have a choice but to stand aside.
Awesome Video man but you forgot to say how the border war started because the Cardassians wanted Gelato Machines and Sarfleet refused to give them that classified tech.
It'd be cool with some Klingon showed up during that episode where the Enterprise one after the Phoenix somebody said they was come to support the federation and follow the banner of Maxwell
Love the intro. Wish the music faded (or stopped) when you spoke.
Your video editing is getting pretty good.
to add to some of this. I forget where I saw it, but someone did the math on the "bajoran occupation" and how many lives were exterminated by the cardassians and it came out to an average of something like twenty a year? like the number sounds horrific, but then factoring in the length of the occupation and it literally was a fraction of a perfectly normal statistical death like heart failures, auto accidents, etc. So there is that to consider.
Sure, people being killed by an occupational force is pretty bad, but when more of those under occupation die from falling down stairs each year than from the occupying army, you kinda have to ask yourself "is this really an issue going to war over?"
Wow, what a nice intro cinematic
Just because the Federation was more powerful than ANY other power in the alpha quadrant does not mean they were more powerful than EVERY other power in the quadrant. Have you never heard the expression "nibbled to death by ducks"?
As prodigal as the enterprise seemed with energy, food, and so forth, the Federation could not have had unlimited resources. If they had tried to impose their morality (which I agree was the correct morality) on the Cardassians, for instance, The other major powers most likely would have banded together out of fear. The Federation might have been able to defeat any one of them at a time, but not all.
As for forcing the dominion to free it's subject races after the war, that would have been far beyond their power. The Federation/Starfleet/Romulan alliance had defeated the dominion only on their side of the wormhole. The dominion's forces on the other side remained formidable, and without the need to extend their supply lines so far, would have been incredibly difficult if not impossible for anybody short of the Q or the pProfits to subdue. Moreover, both the Vorta & Jem'Hadar were shipped the Founders as gods and would not have conceived of themselves as being freed by federation interventionism. Millions of them would have died in defense of their masters.
You do what you can, not what you should.
It seemed like they expected that the internal state of the Cardassian empire was likely to be unstable. Sometimes the best thing to do is nothing.
Just curious. Acknowledging the Federation had superior technology, did the Federation know this?
It made sense for the Federation to not take Cardassia seariously. The Federation has already been huge and they have the technologie to make unhabitable planets habitable. So they didn't really care about some far away, low population planets
Captain Maxwell was right! Makes me want to sing the song titled "the minstrel boy."
Kirk is basically Dr Who. Think about this: The Doctor came from a race that the Krillitanes in the ep ''School Reunion'' called ''a race of dusty old senators''. They were hands off, content just to explore without getting involved, and totally secure in their belief that their technology could protect them from any threat. Does this not sound like the Federation to anyone else? And in the same way that Kirk willingly broke the Prime Directive among many other laws to save lives because it was the right thing to do, the Doctor willingly stole a TARDIS and spent his days travelling the universe helping people because it was the right thing to do.
That's why we love him so much.
Soooooooo what you're saying, what I'm getting as to what could've solved all of starfleets problems is... Kirk.
Cuz gelato ain't doing it.
Gelato was better in kirks day ;(
Kirk could have wiped out the Dominion and Cardassia in one fell swoop. All the Federation would have lost was.... two guys wearing red shirts.
@@Zachomara Maybe an Oberth too
Kirk could have beaten the Borg with a rusty Oberth running on 1 nacelle
But that s not the only time Jean Luc Picard covered something up. Remember when he didnt speak up for Worf, when Worf was framed as a traitor by the Klingon Empire?
One thing I read on the Cardassians to the Romulans was in 1990s was that they built bigger ships to just appear more meanaceing but this ruse was used to intimate and give everyone including Starfleet false readings to how limited they were in power.Dont remember the magazine that was in.
This got me thinking, it would be very interesting to see you tackle the Organian Peace Treaty. That was a major aspect of TOS. It is one of the few things that, having happened in one episode, is referenced in another. And yet, and yet, once TOS was over, it is never mentioned again. throughout TNG, it is never mentioned. The episode Yesterday's Enterprise suggests a full scale war between the Federation and the Klingons, despite the Organians supposedly forbidding them from fighting and acting decisively to enforce that ban. You'd think it would have at least come up in Star Trek 6. What happened to it? Alternate universe? Did the Organians go "beyond the rim"? People have been asking these questions for over thirty years!
Yea, the Organian peace treaty seemed to create this war of subterfuge or cold war which is interesting.
@@LoreReloaded I'm sure you'd have some very interesting things to say about it.
WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?!?!?!?!
Martha!
@@dragonsword7370 but why?
The term "enlightened humans" made me giggle.
How superior was Starfleet during the Cardassian Border war really?
I always interpreted that situation as more of a mix of political unwillingness from the public and aging Starfleet designs.
The Cardassian Border war was in the 2340s to mid-2350s.
Nebulas were launched as early as 2363 and Galaxy's in the late 2350s.
So even if Nebula and Galaxy class were launched during the time of the Cardassian Border war they were either single prototypes (USS Nebula & USS Galaxy) or very few in numbers fielded at the end of the war.
We also never see more than one cardassian ship fight a nebula in "the wounded" while several cardassian Galor class ships are considered a threat to the Enterprise in "Chain of Command" (Jellico had to manually mine the ships to force them to leave instead of using the threat of a superior Galaxy class.
On the other hand older ships get torn to pieces by Galors during the Dominion war (even taking into account that both Mirandas / Excelsior and Galors might have received upgrades by then).
Which to me was the proof that those older ship designs were starting to fail even with modernization programs an new designs (hence the speed of which Starfleet was able to field Akiras, Steamrunners, Intrepids Sovereigns etc so fast after Wolf 359 - they were designs worked on long before Starfleet got the wakeup call from the Borg, but most likely those projects were on the backburner "because we can solve our problems with diplomacy!")
Feds had the technology to dominate but not the will to use it because of the "we're not a military!!!!" bull they kept telling themselves.
Starfleet had a superior Fleet but i guess SF sucks at Surface Warfare and im preety sure the public Opinion in the Fed was anti War
Akira Class is a Monster that can take on 3 Dominion Era Warbirds without hesitation.
Defiants are beasts that like to scrap.
M.A.C.O. wouldn't have made the same mistake as Starfleet. Demilitarizing the Federation was asinine. Even a small fleet of purpose built assault ships could've utterly routed any Cardassian incursion. Maintaining space superiority would've been child's play. Ground engagements under these circumstances would rarely if ever, be necessary. It could even be argued that the Federation's mishandling of the Cardassian Border War is the reason for the Romulan Star Empire's renewed interest in testing their borders as it would appear to be a show of weakness by Starfleet if not the Federation as a whole. Sometimes a massive show of force is the ONLY way to keep the peace. A tactically minded organization would know this.
They would've made the same mistakes that the Obsidian Order and the Tal'Shiar did. Being solely focused only on the military side of activities would've meant that they would have most likely lost against the Dominion. Of course had they been more balance between the roles of their organizations the Dominion might have been beaten sooner.
@@duaneelliott5194 I'm not saying that they should focus solely on the military. I'm saying that the military should exist as a distinct branch of the Federation in order to prevent any one branch from having too much authority. I believe a pentacratic hierarchy within the services would've prevented a great many problems. M.A.C.O. should've be the dedicated military. Starfleet should focus on Science, exploration, etc. The Engineering Corps. should be tasked with maintaining infrastructure. Federation Security would serve as a sort of Federation FBI. There should also be a dedicated Emergency Response Division. Individual member worlds would be trained/supplied for and tasked with local civil defense. Each branch would check the others. For a civilization that claims to value civil liberty, the Federation isn't very keen on the division of power.
I always wondered why with races such as the Andorians as members that Starfleet didn't have a fleet of dedicated warships on standby for just such occasions.. And yes they were too soft on the Cardassians, I agree a massive show of force was in order and they failed.. Such an act could have forced the Cardassians to the negotiating table sooner and the Federation would have gotten better concessions from Cardassia, one of which could have been the end of the Bajoran occupation.
@@joecostantino3684 The Andorian question illustrates the problem with fluid canon. Roddenberry didn't care about canon or continuity. As a result, the timeline and lore is a hot mess. The thing you said about forcing the Cardassians to the negotiating table got me thinking. A treaty favoring the Federation would force a massive restructuring of the Cardassian government perhaps even an ousting of the military regime. This could eventually result in a very beneficial trade deal with the Federation. Perhaps it would've resulted in a Cardassian government that didn't need the Dominion.
Great vid can’t wait for the next one
Cracks me up anyone would be afraid of the Borg. Hahah They have always come off as a total failed "scary" enemy.
I love your channel. It never occurred to me that The Federation should have made freeing the Vorta and Jem Hadar a condition of peace, though as both races generally did not want that freedom (apart from a few outliers) and were largely confined to another quadrant that would be hard to enforce. Actually, now that the Dominion is cured of the changeling disease, and given that Starfleet almost wiped them out as a race, I wonder how long before they try to exterminate Section 31. The Founders are patient, but they can't let somebody get away with that near-genocide...that's a bad precedent (and once that Starfleet will have trouble replicating now that they can no longer inject Odo with the next pathogen). Even with Odo in the Great Link I don't see what his argument would be to the rest of the Founders for leaving Section 31 alone after a crime on that scale, though I am not sure how Odo's opinions as an individual would be integrated into the "whole" that is the link. Surely it can't be they Link as a whole now thinks like Odo, though. In principle (and many in Star Fleet are all about principle) Star Fleet should want an inquiry as much as anyone, doubly so since Section 31 created their bioweapon a year before the war started and without (so far as we know) any input form the Federation Council or President. In a real world realpolitik situation, sich an inquiry would never happen. Section 31 saved the Alpha Quadrant, but we are talking about the 24th century Federation...
Great video Lore ✌😁
YASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS I LIVE FOR THIS CHANNELS VIDEOS AWESOMENESSSSSSSSS
I don't know how complicit Captain Picard was. When he saw the buildup of Cardassian forces he reported it to Starfleet. What else was he supposed to do?
Need to strip-mine Bajor since there are no asteroids anywhere to mine from. Though I always thought the Prime Directive was more about non-interference with non-warp capable species.
you can't expect the Federation to police the entire galaxy, it's impossible
they do enough to where their reputation is generally a good one
in the Alfa and Beta Quadrants
Great video and I do think the history of the tng era is a super interesting one. There is alot to talk about not just about the dominion war but well everything about that era. I think that the federation wants to act like its this utopia of worlds. But when push comes to shove they can be as dangerous as a bloodthirsty Klingon or as manuptive as a romulan. Or they are basicly the Borg in how they want everyone to think like them.
I've got to take issue with your take on the returning of Jono to the Talarians. In any custody dispute the court will rightly first consider what is best for the child. In this case Jono was raised by his Talarian father. It was the only life he really knew (despite PSD flashbacks to the battle). To take him away from his life against his will and force him to likely never see his Talarian family ever again would be wrong and cruel. They pretty strongly established that no abuse was going on, so I don't think Stockholm syndrome was in play. It's an imperfect situation. War tends to create a lot of imperfect situations. The best outcome was for Jono to go back to the Talarians.
"Nation Building is Never pretty" - STD
I remember when I was a kid I heard something about DS9 being loosely based on the kosovo conflict.
That got me thinking. I wanted to write a story about the Border wars that would be Star Treks Vietnam. But my teacher said no fan fiction an I haven’t thought about it until now
it was section 31 who crushed the Cardassian economy
#boom
You're a tin foil hat looney. Everyone knows section 31 is just a myth. Lol
@@jessetellez3924 no it does exist
The intelligence community disagrees
I thought the reason for their collapse was a lack of resources .
With the Romulans and Klingons being such a significant threat to the existence of the Federation, could Starfleet really have afforded to tie down significant portions of the fleet in a conflict that they had no interest in? Wouldn't there be Klingon houses and Romulan senators urging their people to strike while the Federation had their back turned?
Oh man I love the sarcasm in his voice. Makes me smile every god damn time.
As recent US, Australian and western history more broadly illustrate: "nation building" is usually a guide for imperialism. The middle east has become a basket case because of our intervention largely for our strategic purposes.
For those people who say we acted for altruistic purposes, why do we not intervene with China and north Korea militarily. Because that's a bigger fight which would be much more difficult to win. And of course, the middle East is oil rich, and with the exception of Israel, not nuclear powers.
Nice and interesting vid
The federation stood back many times in many situations because of that dan non interference policy. Staying out of others business even when they knew those peoples were being subjugated. My guess is Starfleet was providing the tools needed on Bajor to throw off the yoke of oppression. propably not directly, but clearly they stepped in and supported and protected Bajor after they booted the Cadassians off their planet.
Lovin' these new intros.
the thumbnail looks like the best kraftwerk concert ever