Dominion War : A justified Dominion Response
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- What's up Lore Masters,
Today we take a look at the Dominion War and specifically the Dominion Response to Starfleet Invasion.
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Federation apparently lost a shit ton of ships beyond the wormhole way before the dominion finally entered starfleets territory.
Starfleet seemingly didn’t give a shit About those missing ships. Lol
Thank god for Sisko. Best Captain in Trek.
Sisko bullied civilians from his DS9 pulpit, had sexual relations with a known criminal AND let her go, and interfered with Bajoran culture, specifically their religious leaders (there goes the Prime Directive). Then he was partly to blame for starting the Dominion War, as he controlled the traffic at the wormhole, as well as committing multiple war crimes during the war period (killing a Romulan Ambassador and destroying a planets atmosphere, rendering it unlivable, while people were on it, getting the aliens in the wormhole to kill thousands of ships). His terrible battle strategy cost the lives of millions of civilians when it left Earth mostly undefended. What a hero.
@@uni4rm A fact many people gloss over is that the Prime Directive, while applicable to warp/non-warp capable species, there is a double standard. For warp capable species like Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians, Federation and Starfleet applied political pressure and assets to ward them towards a direction. However, they're a paper tiger, rather than a true warmonger.
@@uni4rm Lol. Really? The only civilian I recall Sisko ever bullying was Quark. But Quark usually deserved it and Odo & Kira bullied him far more. Sisko was dating Cassidy Yates *before* he found out she that was a Maquis collaborator and he let her go only to get her confession later on and she was arrested. Sisko didn't start the Dominion War, he just cut to the chase. The Dominion were eventually going to attack anyway. And by mining the wormhole he stopped their reiforcements from reaching the Alpha Quadrant. He obviously didn't disrespect the Bajoran religion that much or else he wouldn't have been the Emissary. Sisko didn't kill the Romulan ambassador, it was Garak and Sisko was pissed about it but knew it had to be done to save trillions of lives. I do agree with you about the destroying a planet's atmosphere though. He went into crazy mode after Ellington played and betrayed him.
Communication between the ships exploring the Gamma quadrant would be sparse at best (I mean there’s a whole episode made just to make communication through the wormhole even possible- not sure if before or after the episode lore is talking about) so a few going missing might not be instantly noticed.
Agree. Sisko is the best. And remember, Sisko is a god. So, Thank Sisko for Sisko.
Starfleet: Hello, would you like to hear the good word about the Prime Directive?
Dominion: No, stop bothering me.
Starfleet: Well we'll leave some literature and be back tomorrow.
damn Starfleet witnesses thinking they can just go spread the word. Well the dominion also have a word to spread as well
Dominion: OH NO, IT IS YOU WHO WILL BE EDUCATED, ABOUT A GREAT MANY THINGS.
@@JeanLucCaptain educate them before they educate you!
StarFleet was knocking at their door at 8am ?
Really shows the Federation in a new, more Borg like light.
For the Dominion's claim to be legitimate, the Gamma Quadrant end of the wormhole would have to be located in the middle of Dominion space. However, I don't think this was case. For one, I doubt the Dominion would take 2 years to respond if ships were suddenly pouring into their territory. Also, in the episode "The Ship," the crew were surveying a planet in the Gamma Quadrant, and Sisko remarked that the nearest Dominion outpost was 3 weeks away. Clearly, the Dominion did not control the entire region around the wormhole, but it was acting like the entire quadrant belonged to them. I believe this was why Starfleet balked when the Dominion told them to stay out.
Well the statement could be made that the wormhole was in a less than desireable location. Like how the Alpha wormhole was all the way out near Bajor. Neither hole was deep into eithers locatio.
@@geoffreyprior8931 but there were several inhabited planets nearby that didn't even KNOW the dominion existed, so it makes it very hard to believe that the dominion had any claim on the space around the wormhole. Could Starfleet be in the wrong? yes, it could be that they wandered into another galactic powers territory and started taking it. could it be that the dominion is overstretching their borders to scare a potential rival away? yes. We don't ever get to see a map that shows the extent of the dominions actual territory in the gamma quadrant and deception is something the founders do a lot.
It didnt take them two years to respond. They had agents worming their way into alpha/beta quadrant governments for quite awhile prior to the war beginning...
johnnyscifi
Right. That was how the founders worked gaining info on the galaxy by launching hundreds of their babies like Odo into the void. The Dominion wasn’t stupid they weren’t going to just barge into the alpha beta quadrants without substantial advanced intel
More at play here indeed.
The federation: hey
The dominion: please leave
The federation: ok but no
The dominion: ... **sigh**
So, federation is an annoying child.
They did say please.
Not federation. starfleet.
@@xKR33Px true, yet the buacracy failed to act
You forgot the two year pause between "hey" and "please leave". It kind of makes a difference in understanding the "ok but no" response.
I love how the politics of Star Fleet have always been written to be shady AF... since the original series.
Isn't that what politics is?
That's a good point. The Federation (and the Alpha Quadrant Races in general) just barged in thru the worm hole like they owned the place.
Not really. It was assumed that many of the planets they came across were uninhabited and unclaimed. There was not a sign of an established government and a fair amount of livable planets.
In the Alpha quadrant it was pretty much accepted that any power that claimed a habitable planet colonized it. When they saw planets with zero sign if being claimed, they claimed it. No one stopped them, so they colonized it. With zero warning, the Dominion destroyed the colonies. Not exactly a sign if a government that wants peace.
If the Dominion wanted them to stay out, putting up a few warning buoys would be sensible. They were exploring the Gamma Quadrant for two years before encountering the Dominion. Instead, they just suddenly show up and claim the territory out of nowhere.
To be fair, it does seem like they looked around for any sign of inhabitation first, and found none. In fact, they found planets, like the one where Kai Opaka ended up staying, that gave every appearance of neglect- that no one had been around or come across it for centuries. I don't think they necessarily assumed... they just didn't find any evidence of anything when they looked. And with no reason to look further, after what seemed like their due diligence had been completed, they continued on what was the most logical interpretation of the results of their investigation.
Well if you don't plant a flag saying "were own this". Don't be shocked with someone starts setting up shop on your land.
@@WiGgYof09 They really did just move their way into the Gamma Quadrant. Look at it this way When the first Explorers Landed in North America they found all this new land and new opportunities to explore. The Alpha quadrant powers are like Europeans discovering the New Region and want what is there. And History is what it is. Think of how the Native Americans think from their point of view would you see this rather hostile of them?
My favourite example of how the Federation and other powers don't seem to care until forced to when it comes to their "exploration" is TNG: Force of Nature. Scientists of a planet find that the other races are destroying their system by using the passage of space, so when no one listens the scientists mine the corridor, and Riker's response to learning this is: "YOU MINED THE CORRIDOR!" , Geordi is like: "Yeah right." and Picard pretty much goes: "Meh!". It's not until someone kills themself to literally blow a hole in subspace to prove the point does the federation even consider it as the measures they'd have to take to prevent the issue would inconvenience them.
One of the things people always call the federation out on is the fact they like to just do whatever they want and hope that it doesn't blow up in their face.
@Thelondonbadger Christians copied conquest from Muslims and Africans? LOL Have you ever heard of the Roman Empire and that the Christian kingdoms of Europe, especially the German Holy Roman Empire, as the name might suggest, saw themselves as successors of that?
and it has blown up in their face like when they decided to mess around with omega particles which they knew were as strong as a mini big bang and a chain of them caused the big bang possibly the federation are the definition of incompetence and arrogance in one
You overlooked an important player in the unfolding of events. The prophets who needed events to play out so that in the end dukat the pah-wraiths champion and sisko the prophets champion would settle things once and for all. So was the federation wrong or were the founders and federation just pawns in a chess game between the pah-wraiths and prophets?
You're right about a lot of this, but I feel like you've missed something crucial. In the words of the female changeling, "To be a thing, is to know a thing." and this for me is what makes the Dominion such great villains. While the Founders themselves are not *telepaths* they still understand humans (and other Alpha Quadrant races) perfectly well. They don't fear the Federation as conquerors. They might fear them as liberators of the races they've conquered (but that's also questionable). They might even intuit the existence of something along the lines of Section 31, but they know the Federation is not going initiate war against them.
No, I'm pretty sure that the Dominion saw the Alpha Quadrant as ripe for conquest the moment they found out about it. They clearly sent in Changeling infiltrators pretty quickly (which is almost certainly how the Jem'hadar knew everything it did). They then set themselves up as a distant-but-looming threat as a part of their strategy to set the Alpha Quadrant powers against one-another.
So while, in a sense, you could see some of what they did as justified in the beginning, I think it was all just prep work for conquering the Alpha Quadrant.
SF did nothing wrong. It's not like the Dominion announced themselves. They kept themselves hidden, gathering information on A/BQ ships. SF sent dozens of ships through along with dozens of other AQ empires. Some came back. Others didn't. It happens. At no time did any of those that returned report being contacted by a Dominion ship.
Regarding the WH location. I suspect the Dominion is a good distance from the WH. SF made contact with several races near the WH who never mentioned the Dominion. Did they know about it? Were they threatened to keep quiet?
Underrated comment right here. Don't forget they very clearly stated that they destroyed New Bajor, which was a peaceful Bajoran colony in the gamma quadrant that was only a few months old.
Great comment!.....
I think it’s important to note that Starfleet had been exploring the Gamma Quadrant for a while before even discovering there was such a thing as the Dominion. If the Dominion had simply put up warning buoys claiming territory and warning everyone to stay out, Starfleet would have. It looks to me that the Dominion claimed the territory around the wormhole after the wormhole was discovered. And that’s why we get a sudden territorial dispute.
Maybe the wormhole is not on the edge of dominion space, but in the middle. In space that is surrounded by dominion colonies/vassals and they just claim those blank spaces as well. Im pretty sure not every system in between Earth, Vulcan, Andoria and Tella has a "this is federation territorie" buoy.
@@Kirifairy Yes it would be like ... the way we here on Earth regard all the bodies orbiting the Sun as belonging to humanity (ala the outer space treaty). We'd regard it as an intrusion if aliens showed up and set up shop on Mars or one of Jupiters moons. You don't have to put a no tresspassing sign up in the front lawn to own it.
@@Kirifairy Maybe the wormhole is a week away from Dominion space and they just lied.
Um...historically that didn't work either as we saw when Kirk destroyed the warning bouy from the First Federation all the way back in TOS season one.
no way, I reject this. Besides what is seen on screen, they must know or hear of the Dominion as they explore.
The federation does encroach in other species domain. But that goes back to one of the original TOS episodes "the Arena" when Kirk battled the Gorn captain.
i love that 1 :)
Good example. The Gorn Hegemony didn't put up a private property sign on Cestus III either. The Federation does stay out of Talarian space. They generally respect the Romulan Neutral Zone (at least as well as the Romulans).
well granted that was more of a Communication issue. they didn't have super portable universal translators back then.
GORN WITH THE WIND
@@zeehero7280 😁🖖
The funny thing is that Federation signed Jankata Accord witch prohibited expansion into another quadrant, so in a sense Federation broke their own rules which resulted in provoking Dominion.
i think the issue is the federation worded the accord so that starfleet and independent bodies in the vulcan and andorian govements could still do as they pleased and starfleet were clever in that they let them be bajoran colonies so their not federation worlds but to the dominon everyone who came through the wormhole is the same a tresspasser grabbing planets
*the gamma quadrant exists*
The Federation: Hey, it’s free real estate
If I just popped into Siberia that had a low population density if any doesn't mean Siberia is not under Russian authority and I can just claim a region in Siberia as mine.
It is very much so a "if you can keep it it's yours" and the dominion when they found out about these intrusions said "screw you, get the sod on out of here" and the federation refused.
It was a harsh reaction, but the Dominion were a harsh people. Fueled at least partially by their xenophobia against all solid races. A xenophobia that they at least claimed was earned by actions of previous solid races they had encountered. Starfleet in the past has been willing to back off of space claimed by others. However, where they often slip up is if no one left a marker or a ship nearby to tell them it's owned, they assume it's fair game. The same sort of thing that happened with the Gorn during Kirk's era. Of course in all fairness, without some kind of border marker, anyone is hard pressed to know their in anothers space to begin with. :)
2:59 When the wormholes exsistence was learned by the founders a founder "found" a ride back through on a alpha ship and then returned with their intell later...
The Federation should have been smarter and sent probes. To survey the area and they should have made sure that the colony was protected by at least a few ships. I think that this is a prime example of what is wrong with the Federation.
They spent 2 years exploring, meeting Gamma Q species, opening trade and cultural exchanges before any Gamma Q species even mentioned the Dominion.
No, it's just a prime example of whats wrong with this episode. The Federation is better than this, the writing was just shit.
feds typicly dont give an shit about security even less on civilians
In general, nobody in Star Trek is very good at making it clear which territory is theirs. You'd think there'd at least be probes and things that transmit a "stay out" message to alien ships.
There are. The Federation borders are lined with sensor nets, message buoys, and travel routes. Contrast with the Gamma Quadrant where the wander around exploring for a couple years before they even hear about the Dominion from a native Gamma Q species. And then suddenly the Jem Hadar come out of nowhere, claim the territory, kidnap Cisco, and destroy a colony.
@@espict yeah, along the Federation's border, but not every single uninhibited star system inside of Federation territory, for all we know the wormhole could be deep inside the Dominion, in a sparsely settled pocket, where they'd have no one to routinely show the flag to, or soldiers to loft such a flag in the middle of what could be the Dominion's version of Wyoming.
Besides, the Changeling homeworld wasn't too far away relatively speaking, if most of the Gamma quadrant was under their control it stands to reason that they're closer to the Dominion's heartlands rather than their borderlands.
@@the_Kutonarch : You'll always erect a messaging & sensor net to relay orders & watch for dangerous stellar behavior. Not seeing such a thing is a fairly reliable sign that noone lives where you are. Even today we have a few for communicating with certain probes.
@@absalomdraconis for communication such relays are redundant, sitting 2 com buoys, both above & bellow your local star would be sufficient to communicate with any other star system.
Again, not even the Federation has a sensor grid in every star system under its control, so why would the Dominion, especially since it had client states capable of patrolling what was a quiet backwater at the time?
Remember this wormhole wasn't always there, I'm pretty damn sure that if the Dominion knew that a magic tunnel that lead to the other side of the galaxy was right there they'd have parked a few starbases in front of it.
If I dug a hole all the way to China you couldn't blame China for not foreseeing it.
@@the_Kutonarch : The Dominion placed subspace relays for their clients to get in touch with the Vorta. The hardware was literally already there.
I would have to totally agree with the assessment of how Starfleet just rolls into an area of space and say "We come in peace". OK, fine, you come in peace then please leave in peace. But Starfleet always has to try to keep their foot in the door until someone slams it.
I agree with the whole exploration mentality yet when someone asks you to leave, then leave.
Do not get me wrong, I love Starfleet and what they stand for but when you have someone such as Janeway pushing her way into a backyard for a shortcut then told to leave and then you press the issue further, you have to expect to receive a bloody nose every now and then.
Thanks for the video.
Peace and long life 🖖
I hated when Jadzia said that.
... I hate the Federation. Be tough or be pansies, do not be both.
Damn good point! Thank you!
I agree with you on this one. The federation wouldn't be too happy if the borg set up a colony and a slipstream aperture in the middle of federation territory. It was dumb for the federation to do that to the dominion.
The best overview I've read about this topic is, while the Federation didn't know about the Dominion, they knew about us/the Alpha/Beta Quadrant races. That's part of why they sent foundlings out, like Odo. They mentioned that they were planning on contact between the Dominion and Alpha/Beta Quadrant races occurring in another couple of hundred years. The Wormhole changed everything. The Dominion was scrambling to figure out what to do/plan. Also, while we didn't see it, I figure most of that two years of ships and traffic through the wormhole was bringing Changelings through, to the Alpha/Beta Quadrant to infiltrate and gather information/spy on "us".
Basically, while on the one hand, the Federation/Alpha/Beta Quadrant Powers did screw up some, the Dominion had a manifest destiny thing going on, where everything needed to be under their control (the various Gamma Quadrant Races) or destroyed from being a threat, regardless of how threatening it actually is.
Plus, our First Official Contact with the Dominion is them announcing a massacre of a colony. It doesn't really matter whether that colony was legal or illegal, the Dominion massacred them, just for "trespassing". As for Dax's comment, was it a bit arrogant, sure, but I also am, admittedly, assuming that there's something like the Law of the Sea Treaty in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants, dealing with, among other things, freedom of movement/free passage, plus clear borders. The Dominion didn't mark them, because unbeknownst to us, they considered the entire Gamma Quadrant/everywhere they could go as being "their's/The Founders'".
You can get a good view of the Dominion by both their show of force in the first, official First Contact, plus the fact that even though the Odyssey was falling back/retreating to the Wormhole, they deliberately flew a Jem'Hadar ship into it, Kamikaze style. As for you point/mention regarding Quark being a civilian, they don't care about military versus civilian. Remember, these are the same people who developed and deployed a self-sustaining biological weapon against a planet that resisted them.
You mentioned them not having black ops, but the changeling takeover and manipulation of government seemed like what they had in that area.
@JRPGFan20000 You are right of course, but I guess the real question is: when did changeling infiltration begin? Clearly the Dominion was gaining information on the Alpha powers (they were much better at this than the Alpha powers were of the Dominion), but when they decided to begin more direct intervention "black ops" style is vague. I'd also add that much of their information may also have come from their client planets, those doing trade with the Ferengi. I like to think that the Dominion was less bloody until they felt there was a direct threat to their sovereignty and decided to take direct action. My guess is that this shift in Dominion policy was when the Alpha powers went from exploration and trade missions to setting up colonies. And we have to remember that the Founders were extremely xenophobic and protective against "solids", especially solids that they had no imposed "order onto. So their response does make sense.
@@philiptite6254 oro was sent to gather info as was the other changling
@@TheJarric That's true and we shouldn't forget that strategy by the Founders. And that was going on for centuries we could assume, i.e., to send "baby" changelings out to learn and eventually report back on other sectors of the galaxy. But that is a bit different from when adult founders were sent to the Alpha Quadrant to replace key figures post-Alpha contact. On the latter, I'm less certain as to when they became more active in their "black ops" efforts.
I'm totally with you.
It'd be like some foreign nation like China, Chile, or Canada moving in to some place like America, Armenia, or Amsterdam where they set up a colony and military outposts, and then getting mad when they're beaten to a pulp and sent packing.
Then, when the foreign invaders have been captured and/or repulsed or destroyed, the invaders say, "yeah, but you're not going to stop us from "exploring" your land..."
Sounds pretty insane.
This relationship was well shown in the DS9 episode "The Ship". Neither side was willing to truth the other, even for a second. This lack of trust cause the deaths of a runabout crew, more officers on the ground, a founder, and the Jem'hedar soldiers. Had either side tried, at all, to bridge the gap, it might have been different.
However, from the start, neither side would try. The Dominion dealt with Starfleet with over-reaction, massive aggression, and out-right destruction. Starfleet didn't try hard enough to find the Dominion (though to be fair and blame the Ferangi a little, since I wouldn't be surprised to find that they never mentioned it), or make sure the territory was indeed unclaimed.
Does that make the Dominion reaction right? I say no. Wiping out entire colonies, and several starships, without any effort made to make contact first, only makes you look like an aggressor to be countered. So it's no wonder that the Federation saw it as an act of war, and thus began to prepare for open conflict.
So Starfleet is the victim here then, right? Well, no. While I do believe the Dominion would have attacked the Federation eventually no matter what (though perhaps not for many many years), Starfleet still went in without proper effort and respect.
After the Dominion announced itself, both sides could have done better, though I argue that the Dominion did worse. Starfleet did go in with a heavy starship, and did prepare to engage Dominion ships upon sight. However, neither side even tried to talk to the other, and the Dominion ships did go in on attack vectors, without any messages at all. At this point, the Dominion shares more blame, because they continued to use violence only to make their point. Had they even once tried talking, the entire war could have been prevented. Then, as Starfleet was withdrawing, the Dominion made their biggest mistake of all. They suicided to destroy the Odyessy. This made it clear that peace was not possible. This forced Starfleet to take a heavy armed, cloaked ship, for their last ditch effort at diplomacy. Had the Dominion let Starfleet withdraw, they might have gone in with less.
Both sides caused it, but I'd argue the Dominion did more.
lol if the federation ever try to explore fluidic space space its the end
species 8472: well there goes the neighborhood
Borg: and I brought my Janeway, who fires photon torpedoes full spread!*
nah, they bring flowers and cake, so species 8472 will be happy to see them
The Dominion wanted the war. Make no mistake the Dominion were gathering information and were getting ready for this for a long time. And they HAD to know that they needed to speak up early and tell StarFleet not to homestead in the Gamma Q. They did not.
or they just looked what all is about, who comes in their territory and what they usually do.
Maybe they were scared and that is why they gathered so much information. They wanted to know what they are up against and i highly doubt that the dominion war would have happened if the alphs quadrant power did not use the wormhole.
Possibly, but one of the writers of the show said that one of the story arcs that they were thinking about was that the Dominion new about the Federation ever since it's founding in the 22nd century. They had a plan to conquer it but those plans didn't include early first contact due to the discovery of the wormhole.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. Preparing for War doesnt necercarely mean you want to fight
The best indication of future action is past action. The Dominion never peacefully coexisted with any of it's neighbors. Preemptive strikes against the Dominion fall within the definition of self defense.
Unnecessarily violent? You're misunderstanding the nature of the Alpha/Beta quadrant species either.
The alpha quadrant powers were acting like the explorers of old. Find an empty island and claim it, set up a colony/resupply base and move on. They didn’t necessarily know they were in territory claimed by another power...for 2 years. The dominion handled it way too aggressively when they finally decided to show themselves. And Dax... that’s just bad trek writing. Been happening forever
@Lore Reloaded In the early 19th century, explorers like Lewis and Clark were not adhering to territorial boundaries of British, French, or Spanish colonial areas in North America, while exploring the interior of the United States, claiming land along the way. The can be set as a precedence for how the Federation explores and advances into the unknown. Even if these "explorers" traded with local tribes under French/British territorial claims or establish settlements for later wagon trains, it was an accepted custom at the time and held true for legal concepts.
When thinking about Federation and Star Trek in general, remember Gene Roddenberry's idea was make a Space Western, the ideas and legal concepts of exploration and settlement are not the same as the ones we have in 21st century Earth, but rather 19th century Earth.
Though Federation is more or less socialistic in terms of economics, they actually do operate interstellar commerce under the concept of Trade policies, with exceptions to items like Romulan Ale. One aspect of this idea could be applied using modern equivalent to the founding principle of NATO: "Right of free passage of the seas" for trade and commerce. My assumption here is that the Federation operates on a similar principle that adheres to freedom of transit in neutral or unknown space. However, later episodes showing DS9 crew exploring and conducting trade in Gamma quadrant does indicate this concept has a flaw, unless you take into account United States Westward expansion.
THE
USS ODYSSEY
is the only
GALAXY CLASS SHIP
THE DOMINION
ever destroyed
Are you sure about that? They used a lot of Galaxy Class ships during the Dominion war, and i'm sure the Dominion must have destroyed some of them.
There's some reasoning with the idea of Dominion territory and respond time, from what little is shown. They seem like the Mongols, to those that submit to them, they do allow a level of self-rule and only act when someone dispute their authority. Most of the time the Founder simply don't care as long as those within their territory recognized Dominion rule. But given the size of what they see as their territory, there is no reason to suspect they would know that a viable wormhole even exist until well into the timeline depicted.
First they heard rumors -> receive reports from local rulers that actually report in (not all locals are as willing to report) -> actual encounter with alpha quadrant ships without knowing where they came from (but at least figure out there's several powers, not just Federation) -> finally locating where the wormhole is and massively step up on aggression and information gathering. Given the size of Gamma, it is not unreasonable that it took the time that it did.
The Starfleet mantra, even as far back as TOS, seems to be, "We're the good guys, by definition. But if you still don't like how we do things ... well ... too bad, so sad." That's what provoked the types of responses from the Gorn, the Eminians, the Cardassians, and, more recently, the Dominion and Species 8472.
The Federation rejected the Dominion’s warning because the Dominion’s claim to the territory was ridiculous. The Dominion claiming the ENTIRE Gamma Quadrant would be the equivalent of China claiming the entire Pacific Ocean. The opening of the wormhole in the Gamma Quadrant isn’t even in Dominion space (for that matter the Alpha Quadrant opening isn’t Federation space). The United States would not abide China’s claim anymore than the Federation does with the Dominion.
Exactly correct, The Idran Terminus of the Bajoran Wormhole was outside of Dominion space. This means that the Dominion actions in 'The Jem'Hadar' were unwarranted acts of aggression not a reasonable response to an intruder.
Man.... I can't wait to see how post Dominon War Trek looks in this new series. IF the Picard series is some kind of prequel to TNG I think a lot of people are going to be ANGRY. IN some ways that war was so pivotal... it is hard to immagine Trek after it being anything like Trek before it.
If you look at the Star Trek galaxy, most galactic superpowers are militaristic, aggressivly expansionist dictatorships. This fact in mind, the Dominian most likly developed their "strike first policy" to survive. An easy target in the beginning, but then level up (over many centuries) till it ends up becoming the bully (a.k.a. alpha predator) itself.
I think there is an argument in the Fanfilm Series Hidden Frontier that perfectly epitomises Starfleet's thoughts on the Dominion.
Why do people think that the Founders can't hack a computer? Heck, the Founder impersonating Leland Orser had top-level access to the Tal'Shiar database. That alone is an Alpha-Quadrant treasure trove.
When the canon misfires...reload.
I think Starfleet does bear a lot of the responsibility for the Dominion War. You see this type of behavior going all the way back to TOS episodes like Arena or The Tholian Web. When you think about it, it’s actually quite remarkable that it took so long for such a war to happen.
When I first watched the show, I was surprised at Dax's words about "you can't stop us from exploring the Gamma Quadrant". That's pretty arrogant, aggressive, and in violation of Dominion territory. SF didn't even take the time to confirm whose space they were colonizing.
Yes "exploring" that word does not mean what the federation seems to think it means. If you show up at an island with a small expedition walk around a bit, take photos, make maps perhaps even take some samples etc that is exploring. If you show up with a sodding great ship with 1,000 people on board start chopping down the trees building up a town, improving the bay into a fully improved port that is not exploring, that is asserting de facto ownership of said island. This applies to planets just the same either way it's a big middle finger to anyone that considers the territory theirs and basically asserting might makes right so if you don't like it come and stop us.
Who are they supposed to ask, the empty space? They had to go through the worm hole to meet them.
And the TK vorta was purpose bred.
They were told NOT TO COME! They were wrong...
Bad news the Federation lost a Starship good news it wasn't a nebula class starship
Regarding Vorta telekinesis, Vorta clone lines are created for specific purposes and as such could reasonably differ quite strongly in their abilities. Eris, the female Vorta with telekinetic abilities, likely belongs to a line of Vorta specifically intended to covertly infiltrate other societies (as she attempted to do with the Federation). Her telekinetic abilities are part of her cover story, she isn't a typical Vorta because her entire purpose is to pretend not to be one.
Everybody infringes in everybody, it’s the way it always been. It will be the way it will be for a long time to come. It’s just the reality of what is.
Dont forget, Empire's often called themselves explorers also.
I agree when Dax said that line, I was shocked. This reminds me of an original episode of Star Trek of the Thorne, The Enterprise was lured to an outpost/colony of invitation of a good time and The place was destroyed. A battle started on the planet and In space, Kirk and The commander of the other ship was taken to the planet for a one on one.
It was proven though that the Federation was at a wrong, Trespassing on another's turf. Both the Thorne and Dominion could of tried to say HEY, Get OFF OUR LAWN!
The founders did have a bad history with other races, So they acted in a way they felt they had too, But they too showed a history of join us or else.
For me, the strange thing is that while they might have been prone to using excessive force, I never really saw the Dominion as being truly bad guys until the Founder ordered the extermination of the Cardassians on Cardassia.
Now that being said, if the Dominion had stationed a dozen Jem'Hadar strike craft at the Gamma quadrant side of the wormhole and aggressively shot at anything that came thru, that might have been a greater deterrent in my opinion.
If the Dominions only concern was to stop Alpha Quadrant expansion then they could have positioned a thousand ships and gun turrets at their end of the wormhole and shut the door. But from later episodes it is clear their only real goal was to conquer the new territory. When they became aware of the wormhole is unclear but they would never be content to stay on their own side. Starfleet recognised that fact straight away, from them on their ‘exploration’ of the Gamma quadrant was little more than scouting missions to find out as much as they could about this new neighbour who certainly wasn’t going to play nice.
I recall Odo cautioning the founder leader that the alpha quadrant would be difficult to defeat. The founders don't like solids sans jem' Hadar and vorta. *Founder's called it bringing order to chaos. Also known as I'll kick your 6 for setting foot near or in my territory*
I don't recall the federation willfully wiping out populations for discord or examples of might. (Save mirror)
The Dominion doesn't have that problem. The reaction to newbies in gamma is normal to the Dominion. Their territorial partners know this.
The understanding between the Dominion and Federation makes sense now. The Dominion doesn't care so much about explorer's but about sovereignty. The Federation now stays off of gamma quadrant planets doing trade in space only.
Ownership is measured by one's ability and willingness to kill to keep a thing. That's all police and armies are.
Some of the best writting in trek they could not talk there way out of a fight or find common ground with the dominion they were real villains star fleet needed a wake up call they needed to learn there freedom is not free and sometimes you have to fight for your way of life I liked that... no making friends with the dominion surrender or fight is the only two options for the talk about this federation.. Great writting
Starfleet is basically the British Empire
Starfleet: Hey check out this stuff it's called opiu...
Jem'Hadar: No. Ketracel-white.
Starfleet: Ketracel-what?
Anyways, you're videos are awesome, this channel is great, your production value is off the chain. You make a lot of intelligent and interesting points. I just thought I would say that at this point I feel like you're arguing just to argue.
I feel it is important to acknowledge that, yes, Starfleet and the other powers were violating Dominion territorial claims, they didn't know they were doing so. There were no outposts, colonies, listenong stations, patrols, or message buoys declaring the area belonged to the Dominion. It was two *years* before there was any Dominion response at all - and then the Odyssey has to go *searching* for a Dominion presence to open negotiations with.
It's a very nice illustration of cultural blinders on both sides. The Federation (and its neighbours, who were also exploring the Gamma quadrant) come from a multi-power region, where borders and territory is staked and guarded and recognized by treaty. Even when the Romulans went full isolationist in the early 24th century they did so within recognized and aggressively patrolled borders. Even *inside* someone's territory, you can't go three light-years through an "uninhabited" region without bumping into a subspace network repeater, scientific observation post or mining operation. If something belonged to someone, it was clearly marked.
The Dominion, on the other hand, is the only power of any significance in the Gamma Quadrant. They don't have treaties or buoys or border patrols because they don't need them. Everything they can reach, is theirs. Everyone who knows of their existence acknowledges them as suzerain. The Dominion had no border security because it had no borders. Everything the sensor scan touches, is their kingdom - and thanks to this and their centuries of unchallenged rule, they were ossified and completely unable to deal with the concept of someone pootling around in their territory.
So it took them two years to come up with a response - part of which may even be, as other commenters have suggested, time needed to simply move ships to this distant, uninhabited and undeveloped corner of the quadrant. And said response, rather than being something the Alpha/Beta Quadrant powers would recognize (say, a map with purple shading over where the Dominion claims control) was the only thing they knew how to do, the sort of thing the Dominion does when one of their client states steps out of line: A violent, sudden punitive response designed to cause fear.
But these were not Dominion client states. These were independent powers with elements of a shared galactic diplomatic culture which had just been terribly violated. And so through mutual misunderstanding did they move closer to war.
0:07 "Starfleet would just barge in without permission".
Something Captain Ransom learned _only works_ when you have the might of Starfleet right behind you to back you up …
Starfleet literally just dropped into the dominions "backyard", totally uninvited. What would you expect when you trespass...?
If the Picard serise comes out and pulls a "yesterday's enterprise" we will all be alright
For those suggesting that the Dominion didn't have a legitimate claim to the territory on the Gamma Quadrant side of the wormhole because it took them 2 years to make contact with the Federation. I want to put forward the idea that the Dominion was structured in a feudal manner with the various client states that were encountered beforehand serving as vassals. As shown in DS9 these clients were largely left to their own devices only being bothered when their liege wanted something. From here i want to hypothosise that the Wormhole came out somewhere that the Dominion had cemented control over centuries before, and therefore they didn't expect to have to deal with unknown powers, meaning that they weren't exerting obvious control over the space because with no one around to contest it their presence only needed to be minor.
On top of all this like a feudal system they were slow to react as word would take time to filter through clients of the incursions. The Founders would naturally be cautious and want to observe the interlopers before making contact, which they did.
Okay, crazy fucking idea: that one rat that McCoy and Kirk meet in that Klingon Gulag, are we _sure_ that "she" was _just_ a Chameleon?
How could the Dominion have played it different?
Set up a checkpoint on the Gamma side of the wormhole and have all ships stop and be inspected, effectively a Dominion version of *DS9,* except much bigger, with a _lot_ more guns, and a impressive support fleet. Reinforce that they are in Dominion territory, maybe even have each ship made to register a fight plan and assigned a escort. And to be mean, bureaucracy them to death with paperwork ect.
It can end there with peaceful relations and the Alpha powers forced to recognize Dominion sovereignty or … …
And/Or don't make visible moves into the Alpha quadrant and a military confrontation till much later if at all. Instead keep *Changlings* secret and try a complete internal takeover first - this time without little _breathing tubules_ on the back of the neck.
*"Martok"* proved how effective that can be, imagine if the Federation council got replaced, along with the top admirals (Betazoids would be an issue, but powerful telepaths are probably kept an eye on or even restricted in high security areas, and why didn't Starfleet start using some with security clearances to check for Changelings and get Intel from Vorta once the penny dropped?).
From there either a soft takeover occurs and no one even realizes, perhaps in all the major powers.
The options are then endless…
Start a all out Alpha quadrant war between the Romulans and Cardassians versus the Klingons and the Federation or any combination, drag in the other powers and by the end the Dominion can just waltz in (unless they accidentally create battle hardened more advanced locals, like the Federation is post Dominion - they are _a lot tougher_ afterwards).
Diplomatically agree to Dominion exploration and trade in the Alpha quadrant, the Dominion builds up a peaceful presence until eventually they take over, especially if favorable treaties are signed by Changelings in disguise as Alpha leadership, that wouldn't be too suspicious considering the terms of the treaty of Algeron.
Hell, join the Federation and dominate it slowly by means fair and foul.
But keep knowledge that Changelings can *replace people* out of non Dominion hands, that is the game changer and allows them to win without even fighting.
A what if? video seems appropriate …
The Dominion probably disabled some of the missing ships, and gained a lot of information about the Alpha and Beta quadrant from the ships computers and crew. (I am sure they were polite and friendly about the questioning)
So! When A Star Ship "barged" into Dominion territory, they were hailed by a Dominion ship or a buoy broadcasting that they were in Dominion space, and that a ship should turn around and jog on. The Dominion wants other powers to come in. So they might study the visitor, and develop a plan to conquer. With respect, Godfather.
Very well done!
Reminds me of the walking dead. Was Negan such a bad guy? Rick killed LOTS of his people first in an unprovoked attack on an outpost. Then Negan only killed two. Still going forward when provoked Negan didn't kill when he didn't have to. Rick started the war.
Negan was rebuilding a Civilisation, a tyranical for sure but a Civilisation never the less. He had a Way better Chance of reclaiming the World for Humanity than Rick
It's perfectly plausible only female Vorta have the telekinesis stun power.
Was that the only line of female Vorta? It's possible that it was even the line in specific.
@@absalomdraconis I cannot recall any other female vorta.
@@BirdOPrey5 It was a retcon. Producer Ronald D. Moore has said they thought better of giving Vorta a power that could be problematic for later storytelling. The writers decided after the ability was introduced that it was a something the Founders engineered into only a few Vorta special agents. (See Memory Alpha's entry on the Vorta for source quote.)
The character, Eris (or a clone of her), was supposed to be in an episode in season five, The Ship, but the actress wasn't available. If she had been, they may have included the stun ability, as it was already established for the character. Instead, they introduced a new female Vorta character (Kilana), who doesn't exhibit telekinetic powers, in line with the writers having regretted its introduction and deciding to simply omit the ability going forward.
The thing I notice about DS9, Starfleet seems to be the organization that doesn't keep it's word, is willing to break its morals and principles to achieve its aim. Then they act surprised when someone pushes back. However, the dominion always kept their word, even after others would not. The dominion was willing to prove their resolve, that they wanted to be left alone. Yet, the Federation didn't get the message. I guess it's fitting, the political isolationism of the 60's and 80's gave way to an imperialistic America that pushed it's beliefs on the rest of the world.
They point out in DS9 before the camping trip episode, that the wormhole has been opening and closing randomly. This meant that cloaked dominion vessels had been coming through the entire time the Bajoran wormhole was active. Thats how the founders infiltrated planets all over the Alpha Quadrant. I think its only ever explained one time though and then eluded to in the dominions initial attempts to use subterfuge on earth.
That was apart of an episode where it was discovered Starfleet was doing it
@@LoreReloaded Or was that the time that the Joint Cardasian Romulan fleet snuck through and got folded like a paper bag? Plot devices man lol
Love your content btw
The more I learn about this series, the more I am convinced that Starfleet and the Federation are the true evil of the Alpha Quadrant.
UFP act more like NATO.
@@BadwolfGamer NATO Isn't even close to that level of stupid.
@@joshuasepeda3289 right NATO gets shot at all the time for being in places they dont belong Uhhemm Bosnia
Then you are not learning anything. DS9 is very unique in Star Trek in that the Federation and Starfleet behave like real nations would. It is not a "Liberal Paradise", and not everything works out nice and neat or even well. And when you rely on communication, and do not take "no" as the the first and only answer, and there is no communication aside from shooting, and there was not even a "no" except killing Starfleet did nothing wrong.
Empires founding on and maintained with violence, grossly often racial inequity, tend to fear and loath democracies (Sadly our politicians don't always understand that. But that is not for here) and choose war of various forms and types to actually leaving the democracies alone, or joining the club.
@@DocWolph What about how Starfleet refused to modernize and allowed a conflict with the Cardassians to go on for more than a decade? How about the fact that they surrendered colonies that they could have kept and allowed Cardassians to violate the dmz treaty over and over again? How about the fact that Starfleet and the Federation were so convinced that they had found peace in their time that they decided that there was no need for an actual military anymore, Picard actually states that Starfleet isn't a military after their encounter with the Borg. I could go on but I think that should suffice.
The Dominions response is try and conquer/eradicate the entire of the Alpha and Beta quadrant. Not surprisingly, nobody liked this and they gave them a damn good seeing to.
The Dominion was obviously capable of defending their space. When the federation came into their space, they just sat back and watched for awhile.
Please do a battle analysis of the this event soonest!
Rewatching DS9. I had forgotten what a bunch of arrogant asshats they really are. Even Sisko to a degree, despite stating the problem was Earth. That Earth is a paradise where all problems have been solved. Insinuating, correctly, that the average Federation citizen is insulated from the harsh realities of the greater galaxy.
I, for one, do believe that the Dominion were completely justified in their actions with the exception of the destruction of the Odyssey and the capture of the Defiant and her crew. A, more or less, official attempt at diplomacy should be treated with some measure of respect.
But I do think I know why the Dominion escalated their response so quickly and violently, and why it took so long for the Jem'Hadar to appear. I believe that the wormhole lead to the heart of Dominion space. Its not far from the Founder's homeworld, and the other races encountered are very well pacified. I think that up to that point the Dominion kept little of its military in its core systems. Instead patrolling the outer colonies and expanding the borders of the Dominion. It would have taken considerable time for the Jem'Hadar to be redeployed, and the Dominion war machine properly prepared. In the meantime, the Founders very quickly began infiltrating Alpha quadrant ships and powers in preparation for what was to come.
Is the Starfleet the most inept military ever known?
Point 1. After wars with the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc., why did Starfleet not develop warships to protect the billions of Federation citizens? Instead of building warships, Starfleet continues to build exploration type vessels. Only after the Borg, did Starfleet build limited warships. I don't know if this is due to the budgets at Paramount, lack of imagination of the writers, or Starfleet being Starfleet, but it's inexcusable that Starfleet wasn't armed to the teeth.
Point 2. Current naval strategy employees an armada of multiple ships when patrolling just about anywhere. Any incursion into Dominion space should have demanded that Starfleet send an armada, if the stated reason was a show of force. Starfleet sending one Galaxy class starship is like sending a Carnival Cruise boat with torpedos into the lions den. Idiocy and arrogance.
Point 3. Cloaking. Yes, yes, I know the Defiant had a cloak .... and the broken story of how they kept the cloak even after all the issues with the Romulans and how the cloak was installed on the second Defiant. But why wasn't cloaking technology on all the ships after the Dominon War started or even after the war with the Klingons?
Point 4. Treasonous Starfleet Officers. Even after Bashir and his genetic geniuses calculated Starfleet's doom, Bashir still cured Odo of the founder's disease, which may have fallen into the hands of the Founders and continued the war into the Federation's obliteration. Bashir should have been tried for treason.
Point 5. If it wasn't for the Prophet's intervention in the wormhole, the war against the Dominion would have been lost around season 6. So basically, the Federation lucked into winning by the universe cheating, using the famous, up up down down left right left right start code.
I say all that to say this, DS9 is the best Startrek series ever and next to Reboot: Battlestar Galactica and Firefly, on the best SciFi shows ever in television.
Valid point. I still can't get used to seeing galaxy class ships fighting Borg cubes or in a massive battle defending DS9. That's like watching Carnival cruise ships fight a naval war.
good points. Also mention that despite the fact they knew the Dominion posed a threat, Starfleet didnt bother to search for ways to blockade the wormhole. In the end instead of a giant space empire focused on science, a Ferengi bar worker came up with the solution. Lol
The Dominion doesn't have a claim to the entire Gamma Quadrant. They certainly didn't claim a large portion of space immediately around Idran - otherwise the Federation would have encountered them about 2 seasons earlier. Thus the Federation wasn't going to give up exploring space beyond Idran.
But if the locals had put up a keep off our yard sign, they would have stayed out. Just like they respect Talarian space, despite the Talarians being laughably weaker than them.
hey u
@@bc12-f6q I know u :)
Some years ago, I mentioned at a local science fiction club meeting that Alpha quadrant powers shouldn't be violating Dominion territory. One moron responded to that by saying something like, " Since the Federation doesn't have a treaty with the Dominion, the Federation should be allowed to violate Dominion territory." If that's true, then the Dominion has just as much right to violate Federation territory. Duh!
you said it would take a long time to travel across the quadrants but the dominion can transport long distances like seen in the Episode " The Jem Hadar "
Let's be honest, if not for Q, then Riker's choice to rescue Picard, Federation would be toast.
If not for Sisko, Federation toast.
But most importantly, what would Captain Kirk have done?
A big question on how reasonable neither Starfleet or the Dominion's actions were here, how justified their capture of Sisko in the episode being discussed, and their command to stay out of the gamma quadrant are, really entails whether the wormhole is in Dominion space, and how much of the Gamma Quadrant the Dominion occupies.
If the wormhole goes into the middle of their territory, or the majority of the quadrant is under their control, they have every right to tell Starfleet to keep out. And while one could argue that if they were aware of Starfleet, their failure to specify any borders or territorial claim to a naive-but-not-malicious Starfleet that just was under the impression they were in unclaimed space was a bit of a jerk move, and their actions in this episode were in no way a reasonable way of making Starfleet aware of that, they would still technically be within their rights.
On the other hand, if the wormhole opens outside of Sominion space, even near to their borders, or there is a great deal of nearby Gamma Quadrant to be explored that does not require entering Dominion space, then they're making claims they have no right to in forbidding Starfleet from exploring the entire quadrant just because it is in proximity to their space. (Which seems to be the scenario that Starfleet, and Dax in the mentioned scene, are assuming.) It was always the impression I got from the show, too- that the wormhole is in unclaimed territory, and there is plenty of non-Dominion space that Starfleet is still asserting a right to go and explore. ('It's a free galaxy, man!')
But we're not really told one way or another. if the Wormhole opens near the Dominion equivalent of Xestus 3, somewhere out in the sticks but still within their territory, and the Federation are basically coming in like a less violent version of the Gorn, totally ignoring the fact that at no point in the show do they ever enter a part of the Gamma Quadrant that isn't sovereign Dominion territory... that casts a lot of their actions in the first few seasons in a much worse light.
It's weird the dominion didn't just blockade their end of the wormhole.
If the Dominion had announced themselves to the Federation and said "this is our territory, you don't come in." I believe Starfleet would have respected that. Instead, the Dominion said nothing, massacred a peaceful colony, destroyed ships and rubbed in Sisko's nose all the information they had on the Alpha Quadrant. Then they overtly attempted to send a spy into Starfleet's midst (who was fortunately found out fast). After that, the times the Federation went into the Gamma Quadrant was to try to get more information on the Dominion, set up listening posts to warn about a possible Dominion attack, or to talk to the Dominion themselves. And, yeah, Starfleet explores space like they own the place, until someone else mentions that they owned it first, then they do back down. You didn't see them regularly flying through Cardassian or Romulan space. And when Dax told the Jem'Hadar that taking Sisko wouldn't keep Starfleet from exploring the Gamma Quadrant she was talking to one man, from one ship that they didn't know anything about. What right did the Dominion have to tell them not to cross this bridge? If the Dominion wanted people from this side of the wormhole to stay out, they could have made that clear long before a colony was set up.
I can't remember if I've said this before, but Starfleet pretty much look at space and say "Oooh, shiny. I must get closer" and when someone says to them "Back off, that's our shiny stuff" , their reaction is "But we just want to wander around and study the shinies. We won't steal or break it, promise"
Ok, that's the childish version, but the point is that we're fascinated by what's out there. Above all else, we want to get out there and learn, and we seem to have a hard time remembering that not everyone in the galaxy shares that drive. Not everyone goes out into space to make friends and study all the weird and wonderful stuff.
Odo and the other Changelings sent out into the Galaxy most likely provided the intel to the Founders about the Federation. I assume the Dominion must have known about the wormhole, how else would Odo have gotten there in the first place? That is how I figure it played out.
Hey, that's what starfleet does. That's why the Q continuum likes them
I'm sure the dominion got the info from captured ships before they destroyed them. They did give them a list of ships they have destroyed.
Great video Lore. Valid points but I don’t think this excuses the Dominion for being who they are. We talk about the alpha and beta powers as conquerors barging in when we need to realize that the Dominion was a imperialist superstate conqueror themselves. If they wanted to be left alone, how does plotting the take over of the alpha quadrant make sense? No they’re no better. They take things by force too and their just more blunt about it.
The federation and other powers brought the war on them selves. The only ones who did not were the minor powers like Bajor. The rest ignored the warnings and kept entering the space they had been told by the ruling power who controlled that area to leave. Breen,Candassains,Klingons and all the other races would have responded with aggression if the dominion had done the same to them.
Nice video, Brent!!!
You are right, STD is bad with continuity 🖖
I see that ability as a age thing
Ahh... continuity. Star Treks one weakness!
Starfleet would never stop expandinginto uncharted territory and the Dominion would never accept Solids having empires like they do in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. War was destined to happen. Peace was never an option
If the Dominion really wanted Starfleet / the Alpha Quadrant to stay out, they could've done so. All they had to do was either set up a whole bunch of unmanned automated cannons at the mouth of the wormhole (on their side) to blast anyone that comes through, or setup a military base with a thousand ships waiting for intruders. "You want to come into the Gamma Quadrant? You gotta go through us." Why didn't they do that? Simple, because as the genetically modified guy said, the Dominion thinks long term... a year.. a decade.. a century from now.
Like the Borg, the Dominion wants to bring order to chaos. So, they were just playing their chess game with the Federation. If you remember, they wanted Eris to get back to the Alpha Quadrant to spy for the Dominion. They ultimately wanted a war that would give them the excuse to invade when they were ready. Their strategy was divide and conquer. They just didn't writers coming up with Ex deus machina "self-replicating mines..."
I mean the Federation was wrong but declaring war and trying to destroy the Federation was a bit extreme.
Don’t forget the federation gave the romulans the founders home world location and then the romulans/cardasians bombed it!
There were factors before, but Jadzia's words were the catalyst.
Conflict was inevitable.