Это видео недоступно.
Сожалеем об этом.
Battle Breakdown : History will remember the name .. Odyssey
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 10 апр 2019
- What's up Lore Masters,
Today we'll be talking about the Destruction of the Odyssey in 'The Jem'hadar'
#dominionwar #DeepSpaceNine #USSOdyssey
================================================
Want More Lore?!
Star Trek Lore: goo.gl/McF2i5
Star Wars Lore: goo.gl/Hzyrk2
Battle Star Galactica Lore: goo.gl/jpPPUY
Star Trek Dominion War: goo.gl/fmwtPf
================================================
Twitter: / lorereloaded
Facebook: / lorereloaded
Twitch: / lorereloaded
Patreon: / lorereloaded
================================================
Come Hang out while I play..
Mixer: goo.gl/YhgNiE
Twitch: goo.gl/kiVw8w
===============================================
Citations! These are my most often used resources:
Memory Alpha: memory-alpha.wi...
Trekyards: / knightstalker666
Spacedock: / @spacedock
Ex Astria Scientia - www.ex-astris-s...
================================================
The music in this video is licensed Royalty Free.
Songs:
Music by:
© 2017 Epidemic Sound
![Baby Kia - WYG (feat. LAZER DIM 700) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/avlLsOH_oJc/mqdefault.jpg)
![Finesse2Tymes & Og Boo Dirty - Real Recognize Real [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3xb4bl5PWF8/mqdefault.jpg)
The Odyssey started with an O.........
Just like Oberth.
LordMIGtau lmao dead
Coincidence? I don’t think so
Oberther! 🤦♂️
You mentioning the Oberth just gave me PTSD flashbacks to the USS Banting from the Academy game for the SNES.
NCC-639? They do reuse a lot of those old names in games...
No matter the series, the Federation is ALWAYS ill equipped for war.
well their war readiness was okaish in TOS....
They did just fine with the Klingons in TOS not to mention the romulan war...
@Inc. and paint Well having a mini beam scortch your homeworld will do that to you.
@@MehrumesDagon And it was rather meh in the Dominion War era. They just reused their TOS war readiness. Mirandas and Excelsiors as far as the eye can see!
Kevin Jones Balance of Terror my dude. The TOS generation was a military
It has been a while since I watched the episode, but I think I remember the Odyssey leaving all non-essential personal at Deep Space 9.
They did. You are correct
@@mr_e_monkey8836 lore retread doesn't a silly little thing called evidence help form his opinion on something.
They did... so probably there would be around 400 crew onboard
@@msvaughanand no families.
900-1000 lives lost. Are we sure about that? Keough offloaded all non essential personnel, although admittedly we don't know how many people that is. It was suggested by Dax when Keough asked how long it would take to rearm the remaining runabouts "About as long as it will take to offload all non essential personnel from the Odyssey, you were planning to do that weren't you?"
Kundalini12 I am not certain if he actually did offload all non essential personnel. Admittedly it has been awhile since I last watched this episode. If I remember correctly he was condescending towards Dax and her suggestions.
Standard crew complement of a galaxy class is between 1000-6000 depending on assignment, even with running a skeleton crew it would not be out of the realm to be 900 still on board. Not to mention they were mostly likely thinking that they would be facing an enemy like the Romulans or Cardassians, so they would have had extra security and medical staff in case of being boarded and/or treating the injured. So 900 - 1000 being on board really isn't that far fetched, in fact I would go so far to say that would be a decent figure. My question though is why did they send only one escort with two runabouts? It would be more likely send two escorts with one runabout.
@@Liowen The 1000-6000 is an uncited claim; however, 1014 is a number we have more concretely, and 1012 is said to be a standard crew compliment. So while there is potential for a higher range, 1000-ish is more likely to be the case.
That said, we don't know what constitutes a skeleton crew. Some numbers have suggested at least a hundred to two hundred civilians onboard; if we further assume that the three duty shifts on the Enterprise-D were equal, then even without subtracting any civilians, it would suggest that 338 personnel are a standard complement to run the ship for a shift (while the other 2/3 are off-duty). I would tend to assume 'skeleton crew' would be beneath that.
Either way- I would think 900 still aboard would be far-fetched; there's reason to believe (albeit few canon numbers) that even just evacuating the civilians would take things down to 750-800, much-less evacuating non-essential, off-duty personnel.
I'd suggest that about 750 should be our high-water mark; and personally, I'd put the range of plausibility closer to somewhere between 100-300.
@@andrewgilbertson5672 6000 isn't an uncited claim, though. It's the officially stated emergency capacity of the ship, should it need to aid in an evacuation.
@@halofreak1990 emergency capacity of the ship probably includes refugees and civilians. Even the Enterprise with its 1000+ crew members had a significant civilian population on board. So i would guess a sub 1000 is a more likely number for essential personnel. How much though? My rough guess would be 600-800 people. But it's just a guess. And a rough one at that LOL! This would not be a skeleton crew though. Just the crew for normal operations. 3-4 shifts, all stations manned, self sufficient and with enough replacements. A skeleton crew could be as low as 20-25% of that.
The USS Odyssey - a testament to the tried and true principle "If you want peace, prepare for war".
Starfleet definitely was not prepared!
But they were prepared by the standards of the adversaries they'd faced up till then (excepting the Borg, of course).
If Q hadn't spanked them a bit, Starfleet would never have stood a chance.
fortunately, they had a captain who actually KNEW what a badass looks like. its not even his fault his ship and crew were excellent, its STARFLET that FUCKED UP by playing make-believe.
It's just lazy writing. Using the Worf effect to establish the Dominion as a credible threat.
@@Scyllax well there's a difference between being prepared for SOMEONE ELSE and Starting the war yourself like the US tends to.
cloak device, another nacelle, and a giant cannon and it would have ended very diferent
Ah yes. The "future Enterprise" was awesome.
It went from luxury apartment in space, to kick@$$!
We can't just send the Enterprise, we have other ships.
*Other ship blows up*
Send Enterprise?
@@VERTHASAMVS
Cant, sir. Got blown the fuck up by a decades old klingon bop. apparently riker forgot to give the fire at will command....
@@VERTHASAMVS She wont arrive 'till Tuesday
I'm flying that in Star Trek Online.
With fighter compliments too.
RIP U.S.S Odyssey your 15 minutes of fame went out with a bang!
Let its name forever be remembered
and a RAMMING SPEED!
@@LoreReloaded Mentioning names, Lore, would you consider doing a vid about Star Fleet ship naming conventions?
For example when someone is promoted to Captain, do they have naming rights of their ships?
Can a Captain newly assigned to a certain ship change its name?
Or, if the ship he will be assigned is still in construction, does he get a say in the final name?
The Galaxy class is the red shirt of starfleet like the Miranda class and oberth class one or two hits on the shields and a warp core breach then kaboom.
@@jasonparis5635 Except for the Enterprise-D because it has plot armor. If the Enterprise-D was there instead of the Odyssey, it would have either won the fight or managed to warp out of there.
Food for thought. We all make jokes as to how the Galaxy class warp core is just waiting to be breached and is begging to overload, making the ship a glass cannon, even with the shields up. We all (well most of us) know that this is basically plot device and a show of lack of creativity by the show writers at the time, who didn't know how to raise the tension unless there was a matter - anti matter containment failure or Beverly Crusher didn't get a new lover. However, here is a little meta-thinking:
1. What if the Enterprise wasn't all that fragile to begin with and we are only shown the instances in which she was because....well.....because it would be boring to watch a 45 minutes episode of a routine day in the lives of SF officers?
2. And i like this one even better...... what if during peace time, the Galaxy Class was so much rigged and modified to do all kinds of "stuff" that it really pushed the limits of the design? A new hydroponics lab installed? Add some EPS conduits. A creature latches to you and thinks you are its mom? Modify the power grid. A cybernetic civilization bypasses your shields? Add rotating frequencies to the mix. Your sensors can't penetrate that nebula? Modify the arrays and make possible to add some extra warp core power to the arrays. Or the main dish (so you can blast a Borg cube i.e.). We even have a very angry comment from Doctor Leah Susan Brahms aimed at Jordi in the show. She was furious as to what he had done to "her" engines! So my guess is, during peace time, all these ships (6 or 12 of them) are essentially a hodgepodge of modifications and improvisations. However, once SF was in war, they got their act together, and brought their ships of the line back to specs. All non essential systems removed. All mods that reduced effectiveness terminated. This is probably the Galaxy class that we know from the Dominion war. A ship much less prone to spontaneous outburst of gamma rays.....
The engineering crew of the Enterprise was some of the best in Starfleet. Everyone wanted to serve on the Enterprise. It was the flagship. So yeah, your point is well made.
You are right, but I think part of the problem was the warp core itself. The size of the Galaxy with all the improved weapons, the powerful shields etc, required a bigger more powerful warp core. This probably created a lot of engineering problems in itself and it took a decade of improvements to sort out the worst stability issues.
@@torstenseidel8875 that is as good explanation as ever, i just like mine better :D
I think both theories are just as likely and both could probably be applied.
LaForge doing the Han Solo.. “and I’ve made a few special modifications myself.”
With the Enterprise being on the leading edge of exploration and colonization, it stands to reason that at its inception it was equipped with a “best guess” of what would be needed, which for the time included the facilities for taking families on their 10-12y missions, which I believe was the writers’ initial concept for what the Enterprise D would be. It’s also reasonable to assume that it would be on the forefront of innovation on the fly, and would potentially be first to analyze and adapt newer technologies they’d encounter. LaForge proved to be worthy of Picard’s faith in him as he kept the wildly unstable warp core in as best operational condition as possible. Fitting that a blind man is the pathfinder (original Conn officer) and engineer for the flagship.
I actually just rewatched the episode yesterday.
And apart from it being brutal, how they just ended the odyssey while retreating, it is much worse than that.
It was a galaxy class... the most powerful ship in active Starfleet service at the time, and it's shields and weapons did basically nothing.
It was a tad weird though, how the odyssey lost its starboard nacelle in the first volley, yet the runabouts could take several shots from the same ships.
Must be plot armor.. or shields in this case.
Lol the runabouts were ridiculous throughout the entire series. What is basically a long-range shuttlecraft consistently fought or evaded fleets of Dominion ships (and others).
@@animateddepression my head canon is that the runabouts basically became the armored vehicles of the federation-super upgraded shields and systems to deal with threats, first from the Maquis/Cardassians and then from the Dominion. DS9 shows the evolution of smaller stronger vessels, with the Defiant being the apex predator of the fleet. Instead of luxury liners, runabouts are basically tugboats with guns on the side, overpowered and with heavy shields. Plus, as has been stated before in the show, shields that are extended over a larger area are weaker (the Enterprise D extended its shields to protect the ship of the romulan in “The Defector,” but Geordi mentions that the shields can’t take much punishment with that broad coverage). Therefore it’s reasonable that a runabout with small surface area can use shields much more efficiently than a massive galaxy class ship.
The domination weopend were going though there defence meaning they were taking g a ton more damage …. If u notice odyssey took out 1 or. 2 of the domination …… plus they would of got away but the dominion rammed its ship in there engines blowing up there warp core so the ship blow up
I never understood the reason why the USS Odyssey failed to destroy a single fighter, yet the captain put all the energy on the armaments.
Blow one of the gunboats (misnamed as fighters) up, cripple another. Have those two do the kamikaze, one shears a nacelle of or otherwise clearly disables Odyssey, the other finishes the job...
Dominion tech was far more advanced than Federation tech at this time. Pretty sure it was stated someone that Federation engineers had to make improvements to ship based phasers to put a dent in those shields or something.
Odyssey probably still had type IX phasers, which were inferior to the later type X type. Considering that even the type X is a practical joke when compared to energy weapons from other factions, it's no surprise that the Odyssey basically was firing blanks at the bug ships.
Because those fighters has a type of armor even ablative armor has no hold on, PLOT armor.
@@44WarmocK77 Galaxy class design specs call for type X. There's no reason to think that the Odyssey would be equipped with sub-standard phasers.
By the early TNG era, The Federation hadn't had any serious enemies in decades. The Klingons were allies and the Romulans had pretty much isolated themselves for over 50 years. That's why Starfleet had gotten comfortable enough to allow families on starships. The first encounters with the Borg and Dominion were disastrous because Starfleet had gotten a bit soft and overconfident by that point
MACO would've NEVER made such an obvious tactical error.
Even the Jem'Hadar respected the MACO
@tylerx2f01 They were disbanded in the early to mid 2200's. The point I was making is that the Federation should have never disbanded MACO. If they had a dedicated military, they would have never been pushed around by the Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Ferrengi, the Dominion, etc. It also would've rendered the asenine debate over whether or not Starfleet was a military entirely moot. Starfleet is a bloated organization with far too many duties to perform any of them to the best of their ability.
@@UncleMikeDrop I completely agree that the MACOs should not have been disbanded at all. Unfortunately Starfleet saw itself as a "peaceful" organization, & dedicated to the exploration of new parts of the galaxy, "seeking out new life & new civilizations, ..boldly going where no one had gone before" as its signature reason for existence, as a more evolved form of Starfleet. They had no ship earlier on dedicated to warfare in the TNG era of Starfleet, despite their occasional skirmish battles against the Klingons, & Romulans mostly. It was not until after the Borg attacked & then during the DS9 era when they were forced to build Defiant-class vessels for defense & attack in showing their renewed strategic mindset that they lost from when they had the MACOs a century before, to have the will to fight smarter & hit harder when going up against a civilization as powerful as the Dominion.
@@kevinwestrom4775 It was the worst sort of elitist hubris. Now imagine what they could've accomplished if they had a dedicated military that whole time. They likely would've had ships akin to the Defiant class and Akira class way back during the Cardassian border conflict. It makes one wonder how much suffering and death occurred on Starfleet's watch due to the Federation's cowardly half-measures. I blame Gene Roddenberry's childish anti military and anti capitalist hippie sentements.
@@UncleMikeDrop Who knows, but thankfully, these are fictional lives only & not real lives affected by Roddenberry's elitist beliefs.
This would have been the ideal situation for the use of the saucer separation. Not during the battle, of course, but back at DS9. Instead of offloading all the non-essential personnel to the station or Bajor, no doubt causing all sorts of logistical issues, they could have moved any non-essentials from the stardrive section and left the saucer at DS9. This would have avoided the logistics of displacing up to several thousand civilians, as well as preserving the vast majority of the ship's structure against the risk of battle damage. In addition, the stardrive section would be far more maneuverable with much less mass to move and the shields would have to cover a far smaller area. (Yes, I know the shields turned out to be useless, but they did not know this when prepping for the mission.) No doubt the reason the writers didn't have this done was either they failed to remember that option, or they were well aware that a truncated Galaxy is far less impressive looking, and its destruction would be far less impactful, both from a visual perspective and intellectually (with most of the ship still intact back at the station). Separating the saucer would also allow for a bit of world-building, even if just as throw-away lines in an episode about how the Odyssey would have to remain at the station until another Galaxy-class ship's stardrive section could be dispatched to retrieve it. After all, nobody ever talks about what happens if a Galaxy separates, but the stardrive section *loses* the fight, leaving the saucer stranded without a warp drive.
The problem is the writers made the Dominion far too powerful at the beginning just like Borg. Later in the stories Galaxy, Nova, and the Defiant are in constant battles with these little Dominion ships....
“can’t own a quadrant”......... Borg..... “hold my nanoprobes” lol
I guess starfleet where rethinking how effective that refit was. Lol
How far was the sovereign class in its development when the big O was destroyed?
I’ve always thought they should have built a tactical runabout for special ops missions
Like the variant where they strap a torpedo launcher on top?
The best variant was the Main Character Armored version - like we see in this episode. All the runabouts should have been dead.
Lynn Green no no a much faster version pulse phasers ablative armour etc
Arhhh that already exists lol images.app.goo.gl/UkUmtfr6WV4ya6qy8 the “gryphon class runabout”
A bigger size of small starship would have been better. Oh look at all the concepts they threw out for the runabouts and even the defiant.
wwclay86 they re-used one of the concepts for the nova class
Hey lore, I think I have a idea for you:
Picard: Enemy of StarFleet.
In the series it’s subtle, but as the years go by he becomes more and more defiant. Highlights include The establishment of data’s self awareness‘s, the protection of Data’s daughter, the refusal to use Hue as a Trojan horse on the Borg, Drumhead, intentionally disobeying an admiral shortly after talking to Bajorian terrorists, disobeying an admiral regarding forced relocation of colonists.
In the movie First Contact he openly defied Starfleet and goes back to earth to help in the fight, later demonstrating not only was he emotionally compromised but actually blaming the Borg for star-fleet tactical decisions “they invade our space, and we fall back, they asimulate entire worlds and we fall back...”
Then in the third movie, well it’s in the title but this time he’s opening behaving like a terrorist, stealing federation equipment and weapons with the intent of and indeed does use it against then federation allies.
No I’m not saying that he’s an enemy of the Federation, he makes it abundantly clear throughout the entire franchise that he loves the Federation and its ideals, Starfleet on the other hand, I’d say he’s no longer a fan.
You missed the biggest one of all time, the Pegasus and it's *phasing cloak.*
If Picard had just kept going till out of range of the Romulans (who had just committed a hostile act by sealing the Enterprise inside that asteroid, no doubt with the intention to call in reinforcements to later capture the trapped ship) he could have taken Admiral Pressman back to Starfleet to have them pass judgement quietly (retired or administrative duties, but actually secretly running a Section 31 operation).
He not only denied Starfleet of that tactical advantage, he let the Romulans know that such a device was technically feasible (they had been working on one without success for a while) which would have inspired them to redouble their research efforts, maybe helped by scans of the Enterprise decloaking.
It's argued that he did help negotiations wth the Romulans because they were amazed with such a display of honour and knew he could be trusted.
But seriously?
Imagine if Starfleet have perfected that tech and kept it hidden for emergency, like say an all out war. Maybe even have the replicator pattern hidden in every ship's database ready for hostilities (or being stuck in another quadrant or just transmit the specs to Voyager via the pulsar relay).
Combine it with the stealth coating that ship from Gambit had, and wow.
Which leads to destroying the *Vulcan Psi weapon* in Gambit that only works on people with hostile or aggressive emotions. That would be an amazing last resort weapon. Ship full of Vulcans (and enlightened humans?) takes out Jem'hadar or Romulans or Cardassians or … (Klingons when the treaty breaks down) at range.
It's a WMD that only works on the angry. The ultimate ethical nuke.
For a organization like Starfleet it would be a desirable technology, and as for it falling into the wrong hands, the perfect defense against it is to be calm, it wouldn't work on nearly all federation citizens if they were given the heads up.
But regarding Data's daughter he was right, and that Admiral was wrong. It had already been determined that Soong type androids had full rights, so they had no authority to take Lal.
And by trying to do so they participated the emotional crisis that killed get in her early vulnerable phase of development.
If left to grow and stabilize as Picard had decided was the best course of action, Lal may have been the first of a whole race of Data's children, ready to join Starfleet.
And why didn't anyone ask Lt. Barkley to solve the issue while he was hyper intelligent?
And why didn't Archer return immediately with Tuesday captured Siliban Cell ship, and why didn't …
…
…
casbott Good point on the phase cloak, I chuckled to myself when I saw that in the computer game Star Trek Armada, the Romulans had it.
My point regarding data and datas daughter is that these were early signs of Picard not being a team player. In both instances, the orders were coming directly from an admiral, even if not in a strictly military sense individuals who represented StarFleet leadership and policy.
Now to be completely fair, the card was in the right regarding both Data and subsequently his daughter and he even tries to work it out so it’s a win for everyone but when admiral hardnose said Jump, Picard said no. Principled, but again, not a team player.
As the series progresses he stands more and more on principle than duty until finally in First Contact he gives up on duty entirely by ordering the destruction of the enterprise with the goal of saving Data, his friend rather than going down to earth with the rest of the crew to maintain the chain of command (and honestly at that point it was a suicide mission and he knew itt).
ST Insurrection being the next film is when it’s made abundantly clear duty doesn’t matter anymore to him (or really the Federation for that matter, given both their intent for the Baku and The fact they had a purpose built mass civilization abducting and relocating vessel equipped with a phase The fact they had a purpose built mass civilization abducting and relocating vessel equipped with a cloak).
casbott
Why not mass produce what Spock and McCoy injected themselves with in Plato’s stepchildren. It made them telekinetic. Imagine an all telekinetic sf army?
The crew should have made a hard break with the federation and gone mercenary and killed all the Borg when they had the chance. Section 31 could have taken them in?
Galaxy Class can take a beating without shields. Odyssey and Enterprise in Generations film showed that.
Too bad they always forget to unleash their weaponry while taking that beating.
Generations enterprise showed that..rofl...
I loved DS9, kinda wish Voyager had a extra season where they were mixing with post DS9 and we got to see what happen next... :)
Maybe Kim gets his transfer to Defiant /DS9 and becomes a Lt.
Me too
don't know, could just be a like the allies at the start of WW2, that sank all their time preparing for the war of yesterday. Where the Federation tend to face opponents with cloaking tech and don't not use weapons that bypasses shield. i think the Galaxy was desenly suited to deal with Klingon and Romulan threat, with strong shields and 360 phasor firing arcs to deal with ambushing enemies.
Phaser you mean :)
One could make an argument that the prophets owned whatever part of the gamma quadrant it wanted since it never allowed anyone through the wormhole until they let Sisko through and when sisko asked the prophets to keep the founders out of the Alpha quadrant they did.
I think the introduction of the Dominion here wasn't fully fleshed out with the rest of the story, just like how the Cardassians weren't fleshed out when they were first introduced in DS9. This would explain the telepathic powers, the Jem'Hadar not recognizing Odo as a Founder, and the weapons the Dominion fighters used.
When we've seen the Enterprise in TNG fire all weapons on full, that was a lot of firepower. Even with the limited knowledge of the Dominion, the Odyssey should have inflicted some damage. I think they just wanted to portray the Dominion as being so entirely overpowering.
I believe some of the show creators have go on record confirming this. They said that the Dominion was originally introduced as overpowered for shock value but then later they realized that it was too much and ended up scaling back the Dominion for the rest of the show.
Yep. The destruction of the Odyssey was a plot devise to show off the power of this new threat in The Dominion & to hush up TNG fans that would attempt to claim the Picard’s ship & crew could’ve handled what Sisko’s team couldn’t, by showing that even like the Enterprise would by no match.
@@aztn19 They didn’t hush us up at all. The Enterprise would never have gone to the other side of the galaxy either to show the flag or to rescue Sisko or both.
This might be me, but all the new "warships" were originally built, not for the Dominion war, but to fight the Borg. All the technological advancements in armour, weapons and ship designs were thought of, designed, manufactured and originally concieved to fight the Borg. If the Federation never met the Borg, would they have been prepared to fight the Dominion? Would they have won the War without the Borg? Maybe Q was right. He did help the Federation, in the long run, by introducing the Borg to them a century early.
Lore, could you do an episode where the Federation never met the Borg and how it would effect the war with the Dominion?
Well, all we can say about the Odyssey upgrade so far is: it got no plot-armor^^
They should have brought at least one DS9 regular onboard to hide behind their character shields.
Might not have plot armor but it did come with the Worf effect.
Starfleet Command: Let's make a show of force by sending a starship with a track record for warp core breaches.
Especially with warp core breaches for the most unnecessary flaws, like having gotten a computer virus or being hit by a bird of prey. (ok, they couldn't knew that)
"Oberth Destroyer"
I, too, have a title that strikes fear. I am known as "Skeeter Swatter"!
"It's like a Government claiming it owns a hemisphere." Look up the Monroe Doctrine.
I always felt like the Odyssey should have been included in the memories of the crew in Episode
" The Search "
as for the federation sending a Flag Ship lets keep in mind Nog and Jake where kids and Quark a Civilian the federation has to show that they will protect its own
"900 to a thousand"
I thought they where operating on a skelliton crew, which for a Galaxy class would be at most a quarter given how much of the crew is dedicated to science projects or civilian work and mostly just tagging along on the 5 year mission the ship is currently on.
"We're going to a major battle Captain with an unknown enemy we should leave the saucer behind" "Nah it will be fine"
this is what happens when you send a luxury cruise ship to pick a fight with a warship with nothing to lose.
Thing is the Galaxy class isnt a bad ship class at all, and its not so much as a luxury liner as remember the Enterprise D was more suited for exploration however still stood toe to toe with a Borg Cube and while not fully able to take one out was still able to hold its ground.
People make fun of the Galaxy class more out of retrospect and sadly its kind of become a very under rated class of ship.
However i think with the right weapons, equipment and crew the Galaxy class might actually be a good warship.
The Odyssey itself is at least some proof of this as it was only taken out by chance and the Federation being a bit too full of itself.... Much like Picard was before he got that nice date with a Borg Cube.
the first half of the tng season left me thinking this was the love boat in space. As for the enterprise d design always left me thinking how unprepared starfleet was for exploring space.
@@zealotmaster1 Well in defense of the Enterprise D as it was in TNG season 1 i do actually think it was capable of wiping the floor with most of the Federations enemies at the time.
I mean at the time the Klingons would have been a cakewalk (as they were even more stagnated then the federation), same with the Cardassians.
The only real legit threat at the time was the Romulans and yes even the Ferengi (to a extent)
But i think the Enterprise even in season 1 would have fended itself off well against both, sure there might have been casualties and deaths but not on the scale of what happened when the Borg and Dominion entered the stage.
yeah, much about that reminds me of the 1904 "voyage of the damned".
ruclips.net/video/9Mdi_Fh9_Ag/видео.html
A fleet of navel archeological relics and luxury lines with guns slapped on them, ill-equipped for open ocean sailing, and sent halfway around the world to fight a battle with Japan. Well, I think it went more like the ships were donated to Japanese waters to make coral reef habitats of various shapes and sizes. Pore crew of the Odyssey, they never had a chance and had a bad flood of bad luck.
@@themadoneplays7842 It would never be a good warship because it has too many structural weaknesses. The neck is the main one.
When I first saw this episode, the horror & disbelief of seeing the Galaxy class Odessey destroyed so quickly and simply was intense!
John Chilton this is exactly how I felt at the time too.
this is my favourite battle.
I love this model of the galaxy class and no CGI ever gets the deflector part right. It's a simple battle and easy to follow rather than 100's of ships blasting 1000's of shots across the screen that seems to happen now
We've been nice to hear "for the Odyssey!" As a battle cry during the Dominion War
a show of force - one glass cannon.
seriously, a few Excelsiors would have fared better.
Or Ambassador class
Or 6 Mirandas
I might have sent the galaxy class as a fleet flagship to serve as the ambassadorial vessel and also carry a fleet admiral in charge of a fleet of escort vessels personally and no I don't mean runabouts I mean a escort fleet of smaller starships that says in no uncertain terms "We are not screwing around". Pretty much the equivalent of in the modern day showing up with a capital ship escorted by a couple of cruisers and half a dozen destroyers off the enemies coast and very clearly saying "Talk or fight your choice we are ready".
@@@seraphina985 my thinking exactly. a show of force is a show of force. not much - say, a Galaxy and four Excelsior/Ambassador classes would have been enough.
Or like the US Navy parks a Carrier off the coast you know that ship is not alone
Si vis pacem, para bellum
"If you want peace, prepare for war".
Period
Except that military buildup causes tension and leads to more wars. Starfleet and the Federatiok want others to see that they intend to coexist in peace, not go into a volatile situation with a war fleet.
@@panzerfaust3607 But the Constitution and Excelsior classes were the best of both. I guess after the Khitomer Accords were signed, it was akin to the fall of the Berlin Wall in our world. Then the Dominion came along like Al-queda
There were not 900 - 1,000 souls onboard Odyssey. All civilians and non-combat crew were evacuated to DS9 before the mission launched.
Kevin McGuire at the most, there were only around 150-250 crew left on the Odyssey when she was destroyed.
Hard to say. Could have as many as 700.
Galaxies never seem to do well against small ships. Over and over again we see them getting pwned by even the lowly B'Rel bird of prey. On the hand they're somehow able to cripple a Galor with just a couple of phasor hits so what do I know......
This is really one of the biggest events in the prime timeline's entire history if you really think about it, and really Star Trek in general. The Odyssey's destruction was the death of a nearly 200 year long era for Starfleet, namely the era that underlined Roddenberry's ideal principle for a utopic, mostly peaceful Starfleet. Battleships like the Sovereign, and Destroyers like the Defiant (both of which I know were started more due to the Borg before hand, but I think this moment as well as the impending Dominion war was the final nail so to speak.) were never a thing before but were to become a major "part" of the overall machine of Starfleet from then on and an entire generation of ships and outlook seemed to be designed to incorporate more tactical possibilities. The era of Galaxy Class' being deep space colonies of both military and civilians was certainly over.
It's interesting from an in universe perspective but also a meta one, because I think Roddenberry's original vision was dissected with the deepest cut in this moment, and it's not *just* because of how the Odyssey was destroyed but how. Making an example of it and the Dominion fighters suicide running into it while the Odyssey was retreating, essentially needlessly destroying it, sent a bold statement that they weren't interested in negotiations or anything logical like much of the Cold War era rhetoric present in the original series.
I'd argue Wolf 359 was the end of the "peaceful" Starfleet era, and one of the biggest events in the prime timeline's history was Picard and Riker patronizing Q to kick it off. Sisko getting steered/guided into being present at Wolf 359 leads to him finding the Wormhole and the entire Dominion mess.
Wolf started it, but I think the Odyssey was the final nail in the coffin.
Honestly ill defend that the federation only because as you said there was a changling who knew the strengths and weaknesses of the galaxy class so those 3 fighters were prepared to destroy the ship and no offense but if you really think about it 3 galaxy classes were destroyed by their warp cores going critical making you think there was a design flaw with early galaxy models or atleast a flaw with a section of the warp core....cause don't tell me that fighter didnt ram and destroy atleast part of the warp core
Granted, some of those losses came without external force, to get complete destruction you need either the core or the antimatter to provide the energy. And those are closely linked.
Anything not instantly engulfing the ship in a ball of fire was simply beyond the budget I'd guess. Wrecking models w/o CGI isn't something you do lightly after all.
@@robertmartinu8803 which is why I said potential design flaw with the warp core or atleast its safeties was common with the early galaxy classes...
In retrospect I'm kind of surprised that they didn't leave the _Odyssey_ 's saucer section behind at DS9, but I guess they didn't have the budget for doing that in the episode or something - it could've been a chilling monument in the episodes immediately following, the non-warp capable saucer section still being docked at DS9…
@1:45 - I don't necessarily have a problem with the Dominion's claim; I'm more curious about the accuracy of it, as it affects what's 'really' going on here a lot more.
I can understand Starfleet being skeptical, though. "If this is your space, where's the notification buoy? How come the Wadi never mentioned you? How come you left that Nol-Enis moon with the appearance of having been abandoned for ages? How come in two years of exploring over there, we NEVER FOUND A SINGLE TRACE OF YOU???"
The Dominion may have been telling the truth- but I can see why to Starfleet, it would look like a lie; an aggressive bully suddenly claiming territory that wasn't their own in order to threaten Starfleet. A bully that had to be met with force. Because from their perspective, the evidence of two years' of observations didn't match up with this being claimed space.
And we may never know the truth of that situation... we only know how Starfleet's attempt to call their bluff and prove they wouldn't be bullied turned out.
I think thats a fair counter..wish the writers had included it
Thing is trek races are terrible at marking claimed territory. Like the Gorn incident
Nicely done! And you are right, the Federation was not prepared, at that time. But they did have battle ships in development ( the Defiant) and were close to bringing them online. The only question I have always wondered was the families that were on the Galaxy class vessels. I hope that Star Fleet had removed them before this battle.
I’ve been watching your vids all night and I have to say they are all good. I do apologize for my harsh comments yesterday.
I didn't take it personal man - I just get alot of guff for older stuff that, admittedly has egregious errors. Especially the transwarp thing where I have two different videos that addresses it. So I was just having fun and going back and forth. I apologize to if i seemed overly hostile - I wasn't. You actually got me to laugh a few times
Lore Reloaded good deal man. I think back to when I was a kid during TNG back in the day and all the information I see on all the different RUclips sources would’ve just been too cool to think of when I was a kid I was born in 82 so the heyday of Star Trek is right when I was a kid so yeah man the stuff that you and other content creators do is awesome
Thanks so very much for making this episode!
I loved this episode with Captain Keo and the USS Odyssey.
Sending a Galaxy Class starship to send a message to the Dominion and yet it gets hammered was an amazing moment in Star Trek
When I watched it in 1992 I was so amazed and looked forward to the Jem’hadar and then the arrival of the USS Defiant
Thanks again for the video
Oddysey... Usually a long trip, a quest... USS Oddysey Short trip then, BOOM!
Great episode, the crew of Odyssey really is heroic one. Video was good as always! ✌️😌
Oddessy must have been a thicker glass cannon. Still broke upon starboard power coupling collision.
! Note to engineers: do not put starboard power couplings close to outer hull.
or at least armor the area around the damned things
I dunno... I don't consider Starfleet military...when I think about Starfleet at this time I think of them being space police more than anything. And if you look at them from that point everything they do makes sense.
I think it would have made more sense for them to frame this mission as a right of navigation exercise seeing as wormholes were rare and stable ones rarer still.
How did the Doctor on Voyager not know about the dominion? Voyager was launched alongside Akira’s and Sabre’s...
2 questions regarding this.
1. Why didn't the Odyssey separate the saucer to make it 4v3?
2. Why didn't Starfleet send at least 1 additional vessel into the Gamma Quadrant with the Odyssey (like an Excelsior or an Ambassador)?
Awesome! Never saw this in the light you shared!
Can you please tell me what music you used? I've went through alot of the music website you mentioned in the description but I haven't found the music you used.
Star Fleets biggest focus was against the Borg, A race that detects attack frequencies, adapts and makes that type of attack useless.
Spends years of R&D into the Defiant that can automatically remodulate its shields.
The current top of the fleet ship seemingly has trouble manually remodulating its shields to adapt to enemy fire.
The thing with Odyssey's destruction is fairly simple.
Dominion didn't really have more advanced technology. They just had better intel than the UFP.
If you recall, it was said in the very same episode that they know a LOT about the AQ and that their information is growing every day.
Furthermore, the Jem'Hadaar also went to DS9 to supply the crew with the list of ships and colonies they destroyed. We know the Dominion takes prisoners, so its very likely they captured initial ships from the AQ (on expeditions), downloaded their databases, and adjusted their weapons to penetrate their shields.
As we also know, the Defiant's shields were also holding against the Dominion polaron beams (aka, they weren't just passing through them).
And when the DS9 crew managed to capture a Jem'Hadaar attack ship, SF managed to modify their ships shields to compensate for the polaron weapons (even though the shield designs the Defiant had probably were already distributed through the fleet - the analysis of the attack ship gave SF further information to better protect their ships).
Aside from that... the Dominion was willing to do large scale kamikaze runs to make a point.
As for the notion that the Dominion encompassed the entire Gamma Quadrant... I doubt it.
First off, their borders weren't readily marked, and we've seen SF going into Dominion Space (which was located well away from the Wormhole).
Furthermore, it was mentioned by Weyound (when he spoke to Damaar about occupying the Federation) that the Federation was 'vast'. To me, this indicates the UFP was larger than the Dominion (on a galactic scale - which isn't surprising when you factor in that UFP is an organization comprising of over 150 member species who share knowledge, technology and resources freely - and technically speaking, this is also something which should have made them MORE advanced than the Dominion).
Isn't it amazing that the Founders divide the galaxy into quadrants, and have the exact same map as the Federation of those quadrants?
The battle in this episode was poorly done. We are supposed to see a ship that is the equal of the Big E lose. But presumably this ship has the same quality of crew. Early in the fight, before they have taken major damage, we have a long shot image, and the attack ship is approaching or retreating (I forget which). We see the entire lower hull of the Odyssey for about 4 seconds. And the Tactical Officer fires one bank once. That's incompetent compared to Worf.
The minion doesn't of the alpha quadrant, because the alpha quadrant is a federation based division of the Galaxy with sector zero zero one being Earth.
I've always thought it was very strange that all other alien races recognize the federations, and Starfleets designation of the Galaxy.
if anything, I'm sure everyone we think their home planet is sector 0 0 1, at least when they start exploring the galaxies.
Now Earth is where the United Federation president resides, so that makes sense for the UFP, but I don't see why anyone else necessarily holds up to those imaginary regions on a map.
Especially someone from the other side of the Galaxy that just met the United Federation of planets.
I wish we could have seen more on the Odysseys bridge design it looked interesting for a Galaxy Class
I often wondered how that battle would have gone, had either Captain Jelico or Captain Maxwell Been in command of the Odyssey. Both were War time battle hardened veterans and both proved that they were willing to do and sacrifice anything necessary to the highest orders to ensure the survival of the federation. The odysee's greatest mistake was giving those "5minutes and no more" To save Sisko. Had it been Jelico or maxwell they'd have never allowed for that, just as jelico sacreficed picard or maxwell destroyed a shoip to try to prevent all out war for the greater good, they'd have ordered the ships make for the worm hole at all costs to ensure the federation knew what had transpired and to prepare for all out war.
Add in Admiral Pressman, although he would have just activated the *phasing cloak* he had secretly installed.
@@casbot71 No I purposefully did not include pressman. Pressman is an unstable and duranged killer. Yes Jelico is willing to sacrefice people, but only people who knew the risks, which picard did. And while maxwell was willing to kill enemy civilians to prevent greater loss of life through inaction, they both would never do what pressman did.... betray their own crew, lie, deceive, and outright endanger the federation. Pressman is a monster, yes he may have had starfleets blessing to a degree, but that doesn't excuse on any level what he did and would have done had riker not finally grown a pair at the last minute. It's very likely the enterprise would have been captured and her crew imprisoned and tortured by the romulans had pressman had his way in pegasus. you think Jelico or Maxwell could have even fathomed such a disgraceful betrayal to the federation or their crews? Never. and thats why pressman is nothing comparable to jelico or maxwell.
Not sure if this has been brought up, but the Idran system and the Gamma Quadrant end of the Bajoran Wormhole can't have been Dominion space all along. Why?
Because it takes 11 episodes before we even start hearing rumours about them. The Wadi don't mention them, at least not on screen. Zek knows that something called "The Dominion" is a major player in the Gamma Quadrant when he first shows up in mid season 1. If memory serves, that's the first hint: "If you want to do business in the Gamma Quadrant, you have to do business with the Dominion".
We later see Quark making business overtures to minor Dominion races (the Dosi and then the Karemma) on behalf of the Ferengi Alliance, trying to get closer to the top, but we don't see any Starfleet mission in the Gamma Quadrant that turns up any concrete Dominion connections until the season 2 finale, which you discussed in this video.
Alpha and Beta Quadrant species have been wandering around for almost 2 years and until Quark & Sisko meet Eris, they've never even heard of the Jem'Hadar.
If we're being charitable to the Dominion (a novel concept, I know ;) ) we could presume that they've been expanding their borders towards where the Wormhole appears, quietly doing their "If you join the Dominion, we can help you. If you refuse, well it would be a shame if something happened" routine at the same time that the various species from the Alpha and Beta Quadrants have been exploring in all directions, and now they've claimed the region.
I'd have to watch the episode again to check, but I don't think the Dominion gave the Bajorans, Starfleet, or anyone else from the Alpha Quadrant advanced warning. They just wiped out that Bajoran colony and any Alpha Quadrant ships they found, then sent a Jem'Hadar to DS9 to say "Your people were in our territory so we killed them all. Now stay out or die"
Starfleet and Bajor were pretty ticked off (Bajor especially) hence wanting to send the biggest ship possible to make a statement. If memory serves, Captain Keogh wanted to find Sisko before he'd even entertain talking to the Dominion, but again, it's been a while since my last DS9 binge so I'm not 100% sure.
that battle was a huge strategic failure on the part of the Dominion. Star Fleet had no idea their shields were useless against the Dominion. Given that the Dominion only sent 3 fighters they must have known of their advantage... yet instead of keeping that secret they could have used to wipe out whole Federation fleets with little effort, they destroyed one Galaxy class ship.
did anyone on the show ever again even mention the Odyssey after that episode? or even in that episode after the crew returned from the worm hole?
The Dominion was indeed taken aback when all of a sudden the Star Fleet ships were able to stand toe to toe with them. I argue that the Dominion was even more stagnant that Lore claims the Federation was. They blundered many many times in the war, and showing how their phased polaron weaponry was able to penetrate Fed shields was only the beginning. All it took was for the Odyssey to blow up for the Federation sleeping giant to wake up, and for Sisko to play his part in bringing the Romulans into the fight "one of the best episodes IMO :) ". I still have to wonder how many Betazoids died when the Dominion took the planet.
there was a discussion between Weyoun saying something about Federation shields not previously standing up to Dominion weapons and Dukat commenting on Starfleet's ability to adapt
I want to say during the Dominion assault on DS9, but it's been a while
@@artbrann Exactly.
Art Brannen yes that was the episode. Sisko upgraded DS9. It was kicking the shit out of the Dominion fleet attacking it until DS9 finally got overwhelmed.
I think you do a really great job of fairly presenting the moral complexity of events that many simply take for granted. Like Odo, your only master is justice, so to speak. I think we can all agree that the Dominion aren't exactly morally spotless, but you are totally right when you talk about how the Federation's actions made them the clear aggressor and that the Dominion showed enormous restraint for the first phrase of Dominion/Alpha Quadrant interaction.
I seriously doubt that a fleet of Imperial Star Destroyers and 1 Super Star Destroyer couldn't last long against a fleet of 150 Jem'Hadar Fighters. Who do you think would win?
The Empire would be a prime opponent to the Jem'Hadar! Unlike the the Federation the Empire and now the First Order ships are built for heavy battle conditions. Plus the Jem'Hadar fighters would not fair well against a ship like the Eclipse class Super Star Destroyer, plus the Empire doesn't invade or enter into battle with only a few ships, they come by the hundreds and sometimes by the thousands!! The Federation needs to think differently and increase their Military defenses, another words don't bring a knife to a gun fight!. Also to be noted is the Empire's Elite Crimson fighter squadrons are a equal match for the Jem'Hadar fighters. The plain fact is that the Federation was way to soft and let what little guard they had down after destroying a Borg cube. If they had more ships like Voyager ( Intrepid Class ) the Federation would have had less harder time defeating the Founders/Jem'Hadar! In a weird sense the Founders/Jem'Hadar are lucky that Wormhole didn't open up in the Delta quadrant or they would have been greeted by a group known for three simple words, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! Otherwise I find your comment about the ships from the Empire/First Order or even the Galactic Republic inaccurate. As Lord Vader once said......I Find Your Lack Of Faith
DISTURBING😉.
I don’t think you are an apologist for the Dominion. I agree with maybe all (expect for the Discovery question and there’s are reasons to stand on either side of that argument) of your analysis. The Federation was warned as far back as “Undiscovered Country” that mothballing Starfleet would lead to disaster. It’s like the British refusal to respond to rising military buildup by Germany until they were knocking down borders. The federation of Kirk’s era would not have been so easily caught off guard, I think.
The Odessey plan was stupid. It was ambiguous. One big ship says, “Hey, let’s talk.”. A fleet coming in shooting says, “Talking is over.” One big ship shooting says . . . what?
Block 1 Galaxy class ships were like the US "Standard" battleships of the interwar years in real life. They were not ready for war when it came and it showed in the first engagement fought (three of the US battleships at Pearl Harbor were disabled by attacks that they should have shrugged off)
Starfleet constantly trespassed into territory not knowing if it belonged to others
you brought something up that I really didn't think about... if the Changlings had already planted themselves within star fleet It is possible that they know the shield frequencies that Starfleet uses on ships and that is why the dominion was able to bypass DS9 and the Odyssey Shields.. thoughts?
The Galaxy Class was a match for most of the ships in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant and one thing I don't get is why people don't think the same way about the Constitution class as it was one of the most advanced ship in Starfleet at the time but the Enterprise, Constellation was destroyed and the Excalibur was heavily damage with all hands lost but no one call them glass canon.
It's popular for some reason to hate on the Galaxy class.
Most Constitution Class starships at the time of TOS we're 25-30 years old when the Constellation and Excalibur were lost. The original Enterprise was 40 years old and was lost to lack of repairs following the Wrath of Khan and was run by only 5 people when it is designed for a crew of 400. Compared to fully crewed and fully operational Galaxy Class ships, they fail epically
The moment the Oddessy Captain waddled down those stairs in Ops with a cocky attitude that I never even saw in Picard on his best day, I knew his overconfidence was going to get him and his entire crew killed. You all know how it ended.
So, why was the primary hull brought through and not left at DS9? A lot less mass would make for a lot more maneuverability.
5:02 - I do not agree with you, in Star Trek Generations the Klingon Bird of Prey kept on Firing Torpedo's at the Enterprise (through their shields) and the Enterprise held up pretty good. The BoP on the other hand was destroyed with just ONE torpedo. That the D was destroyed was not so much due to structural problems but with engine problems, or better said, issues with the anti-matter confinement. As we all know if you don't keep anti-matter confined it will set loose and annihilate itself with other matter and it goes BOOOOMMM.... So the Enterprise did take how many torpedo's from that BoP in Generations? At least 5 or 6? I lost count. For some reason we don't see the Odyssey using any photon torpedo's, but phasers only. The Galaxy class was known for it's powerful phasers, and it's surprises me that those tiny Jem H'adar fighters could hold up to them so easily, while we see them being flushed away by them same phasers in the attack on DS9.
after the war i would have called on Q to send 100 borg cubes into dominion space as a big pay back. then send them back to the delta quadrant after the job is done,
To say the Federation/Starfleet didn't keep up with innovation, is a bit incorrect. All through all the series they always talked about how they were pushing the limits in Computer, Transporter, Sensor, Engine/Warp Drive Tech. However, you are right in the regard that Weapons and Defensive Tech did take a back seat. As you say they viewed Star Fleet as an exploratory organization, and in the later years that is how they built their ships. That is until the Dominion and Borg came knocking on the front door.
Until this blog, I didn't even know that Odyssey existed. Must have missed that episode.
Something overlooked when talking about Starfleet is that it was not intended as a military force to begin with. Enterprise time and again in it's first season demonstrates this as it's ships aren't built with combat in mind. Also in the first TOS episodes they weren't called Starfleet but the National Space and Exploration Administration(Yes I know it sounds like Galaxy Quest) or something along those lines as I can't remember exactly. Even though the Constitution Class had the capability to hit hard it was always about doing science and long term exploration solo instead of battle groups. Time and again Starfleet is definitely shown to be more about exploration rather than battle ready. If they truly were a military force then there would be more battle groups ready to act but instead they're spread thin until a need arises and a doctrine change is needed.
I agree not having a proper defensive/offensive force is definitely a dumb move but when did we learn to deal with air to air combat? When did we learn how tactics with machine guns worked? How did we figure out the best ways to deal with tanks? To say Starfleet had the tech is an irrelevant discussion as humanity itself doesn't grow beyond the status quo until something challenges it.
The Odyssey wasn't prepared for the Dominion because until the Dominion the only upgrades made were slightly better variants for going after the Borg which has completely different tech in itself than the Dominion. I want to remind everyone that during WW2 they still believed the battleship was the most powerful vessel on the seas even after the aircraft carrier had proven itself time and time again. After the battle of Midway Island the US took note of the power of aircraft carriers more seriously than any of the other nations.
Starfleet operates the same as any navy today if not actually worse in that regard for being less prepared than they probably should be for races like the Cardassians and the Romulans constantly nipping at the borders.
remember during the war the writers said no galaxy class ships were destroyed, heavily damaged yes, but made it back.
Starfleet is not primarily the military of the Federation. Starfleet is a combined service that consists of each space agency of each member of the UFP. Therefore it's primary goal is exploration and defence. It's also bound to the federations principle of non-aggression and diplomacy. With this philosophy it is clear that Starfleet is very hesitant to build plain warships or to train their officers as a pure military organization would do. Starfleet would rather loose a battle than to provoke one in the first place. The most important rule: never fire first! Try everything to prevent a battle/conflict than to begin one. You can see that in the episode "The Search" where SF sends the Defiant into the Gama-Quadrant to establish a dialogue with the Founders in order to prevent a conflict. Starfleet and it's personal are the ambassadors of the Federation and therefor they are mostly passive. But throughout its history, Starfleet was able to transform itself into a very capable defence force if the need arose. The important part is that after the conflict was over, it always returned to its former, peaceful philosophy. After the first Kithomer Accords where signed, Starfleet was reduced and some of it's bases on the klingon border where decommissioned (ST6).
First, the Galaxy Class was SUPPOSED to be a long range exploration vessel(think Winnebago). Second, it displays what's called "carrier tactics" where you have a "ship of the line" (like the IJN Yamato) brought down by fighters.
This was an upgraded one with a few surprises and i agree .the way they designed their ships was really stupid
Personally, I think you're dismissing the shield thing too easily. If anything, having encountered "shield bypassing" stuff before might actually weaken the case because, "We'll figure it out, just like last time" would be a thing.
And there is of course, "Hindsight is 20/20." Up until TNG started, it appears that the Federation had no serious rivals to worry about. For the sake of argument, let's say Q didn't bring the Borg's attention fully to the Alpha Quadrant and the Bajoran wormhole wasn't found. Do you need Defiants and Sovereigns against what the Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians were shown to have? Does it help to even have those and signal you're a threat on a major level because you're already technologically superior in most ways to your foes?
And of course, their may be politics in the background. Vulcans in particular seem to have been big on peace and negotiation, so Starfleet being "non-military" may have been a sop to various members of the Federation. "Forgot" may be more "weren't allowed to be".
The Odyssey had to die because TNG had just ended and we needed to see how powerful the dominion is.
And they had a couple of models left to blow up.
I think you were being a little unfair to the Federation. With the exception of the fight with the Borg cube, the Federation has had something like 100 years of peace at the time of DS9, interspersed here and there with skirmishes with the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc. In TNG, reference is made to a "war" with the Cardies, but near as I can tell, very few ships were ever involved in that war and it had little effect on the Federation as a whole. And price being a factor even in the 23rd century, it's a lot cheaper to make one ship that can serve as warship, science vessel, exploration vessel, and floating apartment complex than it is to make several ships serving those purposes. Did the Federation both underestimate the Dominion and handle the early skirmishes with it badly? Absolutely. But I think it's unfair to blame the Federation for not being ready for a full-scale war after it had been at peace for 100 years or so. Call it the Kirk/Picard effect. If you've been able to avoid the worst crises over the last hundred years by sending your best men out to handle it, having that solution not work would come as a great surprise.
If you watch in the episode, all civilians and non-necessary personnel were actually offboarded before the mission, so ther ewont have been as many deaths as you claim but still a substantial amount
@Lore Reloaded: I think you are wrong about the crew. The captain said that he offloaded non-essential personell, so 900-1000 lives cannot be true. But even 500 crew lost for a handfull of people is not a good deal.
This battle is full of inconsistencies so i wouldn't take this fight as an indicator of capabilities at all.
A galaxy class starship cannot destroy ONE Jem'Hadar fighter? Yeah, right.
I agree that this course of action was stupid and complacency is not a good shield, but again, this battle was a plotdevice not a realistic show of capabilities (which also explains why the glass cannon was able to survive that much hull and internal damage).
There is one thing though that always amazes me in Star Trek: They ALWAYS ignore one rule of battle when you fight multiple enemies: CONCENTRATE YOUR FIRE!
You don't run around and distribute potshots all around, even when you try to stall for time. You concentrate on ONE ship, destroy it, target the next.
That reduces the pressure and pounding of your defenses and makes it easier to stall for time.
Odyssey looks like the old enterprise
Yes, there is reason to believe they don't own the part of the gamma quadrant near the wormhole. No one near the wormhole had even heard of them. The first time they even came up was with a species that was not part of the Dominion but had trade relations with them. The ones that Quark was negotiating with for Tula berry wine.
I wouldn't consider the Dominion evil. Do they do abhorrent things-absolutely. But so has ever other superpower that has existed. They're a sovereign empire that is focused on protecting their interests, but they are shown to engage in diplomacy and form treaties just as much as just sending in the Jem Hadar to kick ass.
Why didn't The Odyssey send out a couple of runabouts to help fight? I'd never thought about any of this, until this video, but since we're analyzing the bejesus out of the episode wouldn't a couple of runabouts bought a little more time?
I really don't get why in this battle with the odyssey expecting a fight they didn't have the battle bridge manned and ready to separate giving more than one big target for the dominion to worry about. The galaxy class had a battle bridge and it was seemingly never used except for a few times with the enterprise-d. In the dominion war fleet battles not once was a galaxy class ever shown seperated
You made good point here Lore.
I would agree that the Captain was spoiling for a fight, but I don’t agree that he went in shooting.
Granted we don’t see them trying to talk to the Dominion, but that wasn’t their mission.
They were there to free hostages from hostage takers.
All they did was move into a position to shield the disabled Runabout, then used defensive tactics against the Dominion who fired first.
I would agree that it seems odd that the Captain didn’t seem to message the ships, but from his perspective the Dominion had already given an ultimatum, and that after the hostages were released negotiations could begin.
hate to point this out, but the federation had not encountered the phased polaron beam weapons of the dominion before. keogh even says so in conversation with dax on the mekong. so how could they have been prepared for them. later, in the episode "call to arms", which takes place almost a year after sisko and crew captured a jem'hadar attack ship, weyoun is shocked that the federation shields were now able to hold up against their weapons. but dukat is not really surprised as he knew the federation could and would adapt with the technical expertise.
Very nice production quality, the opening sequence made it feel like an actual television program. Regarding the battle itself, clearly Starfleet was resting on its collective laurels and (I'm guessing) the brass figured that the mere presence of the Odyssey would be enough to scare the Dominion and in the process woefully underestimating their opponent and putting far too much faith into what was essentially nothing more than their own assumptions of superiority. The Galaxy-class is a spectacular design and just a plain HUGE frickin' vessel (which I'm certain was Starfleet's lone consideration for sending the Odyssey out), but they were science and exploration ships first and foremost and simply not equipped for this kind of incursion.
I think a good comparison to the Odyssey is a WWII naval battle.
The British dispatched Force Z, at the heart of which was one (of which it literally only had two ready for war) of it's new fast battleships, HMS Prince of Wales, to Singapore in 1941 with the intent of using it as a statement that Britain was willing and prepared to fight if the Japanese pushed too far. The Prince of Wales was by this stage already a veteran ship, with an experienced crew that had seen both the ups and downs of war, and most famously had landed heavy and ultimately mortal blows against Bismarck at Denmark Strait, and it should have served as a powerful and reliable presence in the Far East.
Nonetheless, it was far from home, without significant support, and the Japanese, mere days after they entered the war, sank it.
And they did so by scoring a crippling strike on it's engines which disabled and circumvented it's powerful defensive suite, using (land based) strike craft.
Theres a lot of parralels in the story to me.
May I suggest a one off talking about the tng episode masks?
No, Masaka. You can't!
What are the songs. That area is blank in the description.
They needed a ship that would send a message, so they sent the U.S.S. "See what happens Larry when you find a stranger in the Alps!"
If Starfleet had been truly trying to fly the flag, do a show of force, whatever turn of phrase you wish to use, then they would have sent something like an Ambassador class with a pair of New Orleans class ships, with maybe a Lakota class upgrade of the Excelsior. All of these ships were used as combat vessels. The Ambassador and Excelsior had been used in both engagements against the Klingons, and against the Cardassians, with Excelsior being limitedly used in that conflict. The Ambassador and the New Orleans classes had been used rather effectively in combat against the Cardassians. With the amazing speed, maneuverability and torpedo coverage of the New Orleans class, with the modern phasers it was equiped with, and the brute force that the Ambassador class could deliver, an Ambassador class with a pair of New Orleans class ships would have been a much more tactically sound move.
If, however, Starfleet was adamant about sending a Galaxy class, then they should have given it an escort of two to three other actual star ships, not runabouts, which barely rate above a shuttle craft. The other ships could have been two New Orleans class ships with either a Cheyenne class or a Nebula class with the tactical weapons pod. This set up would have allowed Starfleet to attempt gunboat diplomacy, and had that failed, given them a numerical advantage, as the two runabouts would have still gone along, and even without them, they would still out number the three Gem Haddar fighters, it would also have given them a firepower advantage.
Starfleet had been resting on its own laurels for a long time. Ever since the end of hostilities with the Klingons, and the end of the Cardassian border war, Starfleet thought that the only major threats that were left for them to deal with were the Romulans, who had been quiet since the end of Next Gen, and the Borg, who didn't show back up until after the start of the Dominion War, and again, as is their norm at this point in time, only sent one cube. Starfleet had grown complacent, sloppy, lazy, careless and perhaps most damning of all, allowed themselves to grow into a state of atrophy, untill the power that they were that was able to hold the Klingons back for as many decades as they had was not much more than a memory.
If the Federation has been fighting the Borg before this why were they not using the frequency jumping shield generators on the Odyssey against the jem Hadar??
Do you think the big “O” 😂 would fared better if they dropped the saucer off at DS9 and went in with Battle Bridge in operation?