Startrek Lore: Battle of Wolf 359
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- Опубликовано: 23 авг 2024
- For Friday the 13th - We'll be taking a look at the Battle of Wolf 359 - Wolf 359 was a game change for Starfleet. It changed the entire way the United Federation of Planets looked at things.
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I'm not sure if I'm just repeating what someone else has said but the lack of preparation and sheer stupidity of Starfleet can be summed up by one fact: They went into battle with their partners and children. Who in their right mind does something that idiotic? And if anyone says 'oh well they didn't have time to offload them' They have shuttles, transporters and there are surely a few bases nearby who could have sent some transports to get them off. They knew what was coming but they couldn't be bothered to get their families to safety.
I'm glad someone else observed this. What were they thinking? In fact, why are children *ever* allowed on any ships that are likely to see battle or encounter danger? I recently rewatched TNG "Brothers" in which the opening sequence has the story of two brothers, one who is desperately ill after deliberately ingesting some kind of highly dangerous parasite. A bug so lethal that not even the sickbay of the most advanced starship can adequately treat a sufferer. So how in the hell do children have access to something so deadly? In another episode, an disgruntled teen steals a shuttlecraft, almost killing himself in the process. Do they not lock up the keys for those things? Golf carts are more well protected.
@@kev3d i think cos society is different in the future. the show was about how society was different and our norms would be different
And Wolf 359 is only like
6 light years from Earth.
they could have beamed the families to one ship and that ship retreat. although trying to pick apart fictional shit is rather pointless
Fun Fact: Wolf 359 is an actual star that exists
Oh that is cool
Fun Fact: wolf 359 wasn't a battle it was a slaughter.
@Blue Skeptic Actually it's the 4th nearest system - Alpha Centauri, Barnard's Star, Luhman 16, and then Wolf 359. Still pretty close in stellar terms though.
I found it in space engine, had downloaded star trek ships mod and then I've put cube and galaxy class there facing one another.
@@davedove67 It's close in steller terms but it's so dim you need a large telescope to see it. It's located within the constellation Leo.
I do like that in Star Trek Online you can travel to Wolf 359 and see a nice memorial to the battle among the wreckage of the vessels. A very cool easter egg.
Yea, I thought that was cool to. You also used to be able to go back in time and save Ben Sisko
While terrible, the Borg incursion was a much needed wake up call. Starfleet needed, as Admiral Hanson would say, 'a kick in the rear end'.
Fielding in the bulk of it's fleet, designs that were over a century old, they really had got complacent over the years. I expect even with with the knowledge of the existence of the Borg, Starfleet was only half-heartedly preparing. Old ships, old admirals, many of whom had seen little combat in their long careers.
Now look at Starfleet, instead of Miranda's and Excelsiors, it has Akira's and Sovereigns. Instead of old admirals with limited combat experience, it has thousands of admirals and captains who have been through the most devastating war in Federation history.
Starfleet of 2367 and Starfleet of 2377 looks completely different.
Paul McCloud mannnnnnnnnnnnnn you speak the trutg
and yet, i am sure the latter starfleet still has captains like picard or the captain from master and commander.. refined, yet still able to rise to the occasion
Starfleet as it should have been the whole time. They were lucky they did not get steam rolled with their idiotic Kumbaya tendencies. They finally made dedicated warships. They should have put exploration and diplomacy first. And have ships dedicated to those things. But to totally neglect their military was arrogant, and naive, and it almost cost them.
You do realize that Starfleet ships frames are designed to last a century or more, right?
They also managed to upgrade the Excelsior class (USS Lakota) in DS9 to rival the Defiant (a state of the art 'warship' that was designed in the 24th century).
To top it off, we've even seen the Federation battling and defeating the Sphere builders using at least 1 Prometheus class ship in the battle (in the 26th century).
Intricately speaking, prior to the Borg invasion and Dominion War, SF didn't seem to 'upgrade' their old ships or orbital defenses as fast as they should have... which is utterly unrealistic. By the 23rd century, SF already encountered the V'Ger, the Whale probe, and various other anomalies to understand that things don't remain static and would at the very least remain partly vigilant to ensure such tragedies do not occur again.
I hardly think that if SF or the Federation were to include realistic progressions of technology that they would continue to use ships or orbital defenses with decades old systems in them. Instead, ships that remained in active service from say 100 years ago would continue to be upgraded until they were retired.
Case in point, during the Dominon War, the Dominion was able to capture Betazed... mainly because their orbital defenses were decades out of date.
I mean, who DOES that?
You don't neglect your defensive capabilities simply because its peace... the writers of Trek intentionally wanted to create drama for the sake of it. That's why the Federation was written as 'incompetent'.
By the time DS9 rolled out, Federation technology regressed... or at the very least, the writers simply flat out REFUSED to use highly advanced technology that the Federation had because they had 0 clue on how to create a drama fitting for such a setting without dumbing thing down... so they dumbed it down.
@@deksroning125 The ships might have been upgraded. But their tactics haven't. And the upgrades were made with enemies like the Klingons, Romulans or Cardassians in mind, not the Borg. You remember some episodes in the first seasons of TNG (whose still under the guise of Roddenberry *lol*), where a galaxy class ship was in danger against one Romulan Warbird? Or where a computer virus from a probe could destroy a whole Yamato?
Actually the USS Ahwahnee Survived Wolf 359 Although it was heavily damaged, and took a Year (At Max) to Repair.
The reason is because the Ship was Seen again a year later in the TNG Episode “Redemption pt 2” and was one of the 20 Ships used in Picard’s “Net”
It would have been nice if you had pictures of the starships to compliment your list for people who aren't familiar with them.
This could be described as Starfleet's Pearl Harbour.
In Voyager the Borg either became weaker or Voyager just got VERY lucky with plot armour.
Yea, I almost had done that but was having issues with my adobe products.. The after effects wasn't transferring over the pictures like I wanted and it wasn't rendering at all.. so I just took what I could get.. I actually had a picture of the ship and a picture of it in action if it was available..
Ah ok
I use Sony Vegas doe my special effects and I've had no problems with it.
I really, really like Adobe. But it failed me today..
BadwolfGamer voyager was born lucky and prepped worth all the anti borg weapons and defensive technology that star fleet had researched since before And After the Wolf 359 engagement. Coupled with the newest science capable exploration tech and personnel it's no surprise voyager lasted a while. By attrition they could never have come back but that's the writing defense shielding working for it lol.
Voyager lucked out by getting a borg drone to defend against Borg attacks/technological upgrades.
Multi-phasic shielding was literal borg plot armor.
I think I actually found an actual cannon reason for an Oberth class being there. In the Voyager episode “Infinite Regress”, in which Seven has multiple personality disorder, one of the personalities was the mother of a star fleet officer, she was on a transport heading to Wolf 359 so she could meet her son. The ship ended up being caught in the battle and was destroyed. I think it’s entirely possible that an Oberth class would be used as a transport and thus it could be the one seen at Wolf 359.
He was so shocked by the carnage that he forgot how to pronounce “Kyushu” and “Niagara”... 😱
One major flaw of star fleet since it’s founding is they ditched projectile weapon completely until they saw borg. And even then, it was not massively employed until Kirk Class age
Imagine a futuristic rail gun firing a tritanium bullet at warp power , borg and most of the adaptive shielding wouldn’t stand a chance . But I guess federation finally learn this when they build the Kirk Class
Shoo...Beta canon is dirty
Well, if you think about it, the Federation couldn't be defeated by an Alpha Quadrant enemy. The Borg were Delta and the Dominion Gamma. But starfleet had gotten away with using ships that were older than some of the oldest members of their crews for years. Even the Galaxy class really wasn't but so much more advanced than the ships in that battle. Its why they needed the Sovereign, Norway, Akira, Defiant and ect classes afterward. The sad part was that, according to Sisko, they pulled back from these heavy weapons programs. Its probably why the next Borg Invasion and the Dominion War went so poorly.
On the one hand, yes, the tech was severely outdated. On the other hand, it's not entirely unrealistic. I mean, one of the key elements of the United States' current strategic bomber fleet started its design phase shortly after World War II. And even the most recent and advanced bomber is a design that's in its thirties.
In order to see what lessons Starfleet had learned from Wolf 359 you need to cover The Battle of Sector 001. Examine what classes of starship were used, the condition of the Cube that arrived in near Earth orbit and the radically different tactics used by Starfleet.
I definitively intend to.. and it'll be a lot better than this one..
The unknown constitution class if it was one of the originals from 2245-2250 which a good deal were refitted in 2271 the spaceframe would be over 112-117 years old while the hull is almost 100 years old no wonder the fleet got destroyed. It's like taking a packer car vs. A dump truck no contest.
I'm guessing it might be an "Enterprise Class" (or Constitution II class if you prefer) the difference being that the Refit is a bunch of stuff slapped on top of a Keel laid down in the 2340's and an Enterprise Class would be a brand new ship that externally would look identical (or very similar) but internally would have some changes that come about from the fact that they can pick better where to put the internal layout of rooms and the structural members.
You can even see this in some ways with how the A is presented compared to the Refit - they are quite different in a number of ways and the ship at Wolf 359 be it Constitution II like (or one of it's slight variants) would have the same issues as a lot of the 23rd century tech - like it being very difficult and not worth the bother fitting them with Phaser strips - but considering that Geordi and Scotty had some mutual confusion over the internal power distribution - one would assume ALL the older ship had changed over to newer retro-fitted internals and as such likely got more phaser and shield power and a higher top speed than their 23rd century equivalent.
Reading up on Transwarp got me wondering - the D was some times shown going straight to the speed it was set to go at so zero to Warp 6 say.
But other times it was shown accelerating.
One explanation of what the Excelsiors engines could do was go straight to the given speed without a delay for acceleration (supposedly the 1st ship to be able to do that - But I expect that later TV shows often forgot or glossed over that on things like Enterprise or now Discovery) and conversely they didn't need to slow down either - I'm guessing a side benefit of that more precise entrance and exits from warp and lesser atmospheric or stellar interaction issues with the drive.
But as to the Federation at Wolf 359 I think they were screwed no matter what battle tactic they used as they lacked the ability or knowledge to retune their weapons - only had primitive Photon torpedoes and their shield had no ability to resist or shrug off a Tractor beam (something they really need to work on).
Powerful Tractor beams are a potentially a devastating weapon - and some aliens could use them alone to crush, smash or push things into each other without firing a shot if that was the weapons they chose to develop to a high level - Starfleet really need a defence against them.
The irony is that they had the tech to blow the hell out of a Borg Cube - they could either just send one tiny ship like an Obereth class with a shielded hull full of Torpedoes and just casually sit near them with their main shields down and when the Borg show up if they take an interest just beam the whole contents of the hold into their ship and detonate it all at once.
Bye bye Borg.
Otherwise The USS Pegasus likely had Trans-phasic torpedoes so they really should have got them into production a lot quicker too.
One thing that might effect a Tractor beam is chaff made from a disruptive material you beam that into the beam or just open hatches and dump it and the beam is automatically defused and loose it's lock on the ship.
Painting you ship silver would defeat the borg cutting beams or even altering your shields to be 100% reflective as the cutting beams are supposedly a form of laser of all things. Heck it might even be possible to set up specialist emitters that take an incoming beam and guide it around the shield envelope and bend it off to the side or even all the way around and back at the ship that fired it.
It looks like a lot of Borg tech can be superseeded or delayed by simply putting things in their way that prevents them getting a tractor locks or a weapons lock. There are plenty of things Starfleet has encountered that mess ships up in that way they could have tried.
Basically you are looking for something that short circuits tech that touches it.if something like that could be made to stick to a cube it might even inhibit it's ability to navigate or get target locks too. Like covering a car in sticky tar would totally inhibit it's ability to function.
If you could render a cube unable to navigate and it went into safe mode - then a bunch of ship could just give it a shove into the nearest star.
Observation. It's sad we didn't see more use of the Constitution Class after the Original films. We see ample use of modified Excelsior and Miranda class ships, but never Constitution. I really liked the design of that vessel, and it would have been cool to see it as a throwback workhorse in TNG or later. I also really liked the Ambassador class, which we see briefly here, but could have seen more screen time as well.
Yes it's odd isn't it they even edited out the destroyed connie hull from Best of Both Worlds in the HD cut. The Bozehman was going to be a connie as was the Stargazer but that never happened in the end. I think they were concerned about it being the Hero ship and it's age. But there is no reason they couldn't have used a variant with horizontal struts and a shorter neck - that showed it was of the same sort of era.
yeah, I think the one or two Nebula class cruisers and New Orleans class frigates were the only ship classes that were new enough to have been introduced within 20 years of that battle, with a few more ships modern enough to be from the era when the Ambassador class was new, and the rest from the Excelsior era or before. A truly pathetic little collection of ships considering the obvious size and resources of the Federation, the assets one would expect to be comitted to defending the core systems of the Federation, and the fact that the Federation already knew how dangerous the Borg were from the reports on the interaction the Enterprise had with them a year earlier.
@@wanderinghistorian dude there were only two excelsior class refits and one of the was destroyed years before wolf 359. An that was the Enterprise-B.
One thing which I hated about that episode was the lack of a onscreen fleet battle. Apart from that, both myself and friends at the time felt shell shocked and wondered just what would happen next.
Lets hope that Starfleet develop similar shielding abilities in the dim and distant future.
I always thought they missed an opportunity for further story development by having no survivors. When the Enterprise first arrives at Wolf 359 and scanned for Life signs they should have found a couple of people in either the wreckage of one of the ships, maybe a sealed section still with minimal life support or an escape pod. We could have had a touching Survivor account of what happened in sick Bay or some such.
Me, a Star Wars guy, constantly calling it Worf 359
It wasn’t really a battle it more of an execution
A slaughter, indeed.
The federation really became a SHADOW of it's former self in the 1st half of 24th century..
Oberth, Miranda AND Constitution class ships against a Borg Cube...
WTH
I didn't break down for time, my sanity, and I didn't feel it would be that interesting ..but a lot of the classes I named were just different configurations of the constitution class to..
Ok interesting... Never heard of that freedom or Springfield class.
At least they had a few nebula class ships but that did not help either.
Looking forward to more indepth videos like this! 👍
Like sending a tricycle up against an Abrahms...
The Constitution class alone could have won against that Borg cube if kirk was on board
@@weregarurumon3202 He'd probably have done it by something something filthy disgusting sex with a Borg Queen
They would have had more success with that Oberth class if they'd used it to ram the cube....
#forkingandcountry
As Lieutenant Commander Worf would say. “Perhaps today is a good day to die. Prepare for ramming speed!”
To bad Defiant class vessels are so small and have a smaller warp-core the damage would be completely negligible.
The Defiant is more useful at getting in and out of combat, harassing the enemy and confusing it with intense movement/maneuvers.
They should have just transported the oberth class into the cube and it would have exploded from the inside at least
That would have been the most effective use for the Oberth ever.
I would also say that it makes sense for spacedock to use fusion reactors for two reasons.
1 it is in orbit over earth and fusion reactors do not cause a substantial amount of damage if they fail as the lack of heat and pressure instantly stops the reaction. which would make it safer.
2 it is an old station and doesn't seem to have much firepower, so it would not need vast ammounts of power
#NeverForget #Wolf359
#everythingchanged
#RememberTheCant oh wait wrong series
#DeathToTheALienScum #HumanityFirst
I always wondered why Star fleet just didn't create long range un-manned missiles that once they get close to the Cube it just deploys a few hundred photon torpedo warheads ICBM style. You bombard a cube with a few thousand warheads at a high rate of speed that should do something.
But then that would ruin the concept of the show. Plot armore is important after all even though it annoys our sense of what ifs
Well if this was irl we would have used ballistic projectiles because the borg can only adapt to energy frequencies.
When you send on oberth class into battle, you're pretty fucking desperate...
A pure science ship in the rear watching the fight would be smart. If the fleet dies, the Oberth bounces and relays science of borg vessel
In expanded canon, Borg cubes possess the ability to come together to form greater Borg cubes, this is demonstrated at the very least in the very first section 31 book as well as in the PC game Star Trek Armada 2. The reason I bring this up is that it is worth noting that given the relative ease of both the books description and the video games portrayal of the assembly of cubes into “fusion cubes” that a Borg cube could potentially disassemble itself into at least eight smaller versions of itself, presenting for more targets then what would have otherwise been known at the time.
In the above mentioned book, the process is observed by Romulan allies of the Borg as small cubes, noy much bigger than scout ships were coming together to build what was eventually supposed to be a massive Fusion cube that the federation would otherwise not be able to stop.
Imagine seeing the single massive Borg cube, you assemble a fleet of 30 ships. Is the cube approaches, it disassembles itself into 8, 16, 32, 64, or even 128 smaller targets and that is just assuming an equal distribution. This simple tactic of hiding your numbers can be used to deadly effect by the Borg to end battles, in minutes. In my opinion The only reason the Federation has been able to repel the Borg, is plot armor (or Q intervention, which is the same I suppose). I for one welcome our new cybernetic overlords...
I always believed part of the reson the UFP fleet was so weak was that any real warship like craft would far away from earth near active border regions, had they had more time the could have been thrice the size with better ships.
Starfleet sent its little league team in to fight an unknown threat. It paid the price for sending them in blind. I realize that they gathered whatever was available, but the CO of that lil Oberth should have stayed back and waited to act as a lifeboat.
Another commenter said the Oberth was sent to 'observe' the battle. I've not found any resources to back this up - but even then, It should have stayed so far behind that as soon as it saw what was occuring.. could have just ran..
Lore Reloaded these videos are pretty cool and give great background
Glad you enjoy. ALways open to feedback so feel free to let me know your thoughts.
I visit this system from time to time in Elite: Dangerous. I'm a little bit suprised Frontier didnt put an easter egg memorial somewhere in the system, since this is among the most devastating battle, not only to the Federation, but the most well known such in all the scifi world.
Lol what? Constition class vs a Borg cube!?
Yea, never seemed like a good idea..
Lol what?
Bicycle vs T90?
Probably dragged out of a museum in desperation.
I find it interesting how this single engagement completely reshaped the Federation. Also, if you don't mind me asking, what is the topic of your next Time War video?
We got more than just the Akira and Defiant classes out of Wolf 359. There was also the Excelsior retrofit, the Lakota, and the subsequent retrofits to follow that proved highly successful in the Dominion war.
By the way, THANKS A LOT, Guinan, for the heads up. Her homeworld and presumably most of her species were wiped out by the Borg and she doesn't say shit until the Enterprise bumps (or is pushed) into the Borg.
"Wolf 359 was an inside job" -Lower Decks
i think that starfleet was prepareing for some combat before the borg showed up star fleet was dealing with border issues with the romulans and both of them was looking for a ship that took out outposts along their borders a ship from what i heard from along time ago was a borg ship so in short star fleet was upgradeing they just had it on the back burner like they do with everything else until the borg showed up but even after the borg showed up war ships was placed on the back burner when no more cubes showed after 2-3 years long and short of it star fleet was looking at other disigns for war but did not place them high on the to do list until danger was close by not before
Less wake-up call, more giant slap to the face.
to put it lightly
Borg Cube's have 130,000 drones you missed a zero.
Star-fleet just believed in mass suicide attacks with weak small ships. Till Galaxy class!
Indeed.. Not sure how I missed that.
The USS Raven scanned a borg cube and determined a compliment of 152,000 drones, and studying that same cube, it later took on an additional 50,000 drones bringing the maximum known compliment of a borg cube to be just over 200,000 drones.
Given that you have stated that only TV and Movies are considered cannon... Where are you getting a lot of this? I've seen all Star trek multiple times. Where can a lot of this information be coming from if not ret-coned "outside" lore?
As one example, I wondered why the Klingons were no where to be found. Did I miss a scene over and over?
Hey, so I will sometimes have to draw from sources that aren't what is considered canon. I try very hard to justify everything either on movie or the small screen. I watch the episodes, use memory alpha, use Ex Astra Scientia and such. For instance, the piece about the klingons.. I got directly from Startrek.com - If I can't personally verify the information via a television episode, i'll try to confirm in three spots that are either very very tight on their information and usually back it up. I don't always hit the mark though. Does that make sense?
There were, in fact, Klingons at Wolf-359; twice during Voyager--Unity and Unimatrix Zero--we meet Klingons have been assimilated by the Borg.
I personally believe that there were, in fact, TWO battles of Wolf-359: in the original battle the Borg took their time assimilating each ship as it attacked, allowing the Klingons and the Enterprise to arrive in time and destroy the Borg cube. But then the Queen sent sphere back in time to just before the battle and told her downtime counterpart to use a different strategy. So, the second time around, the Borg don't waste any time and just destroy the Starfleet ships as they attack and so by the time the Klingons arrive, they are too little, too late.
Recommendation/suggestion: if you're going to go to the trouble of listing out every single ship/class, a simple graphic of said vessel would be more engaging than repeatedly showing the battle scene aboard a single ship.
I stopped this practice, a long..long time ago
@@LoreReloaded Very well. Thank you for the video.
It actually does make tactical sense to attack the way they did. If they had attacked from all sides then all six sides of the cube would have been able to shoot at them.
Borg v. Dominion: the dominion likely would have issued orders for the Jem’hadar to use kamakaze strikes or commit suicide rather than be taken alive, but I would put my money on the borg. If they could get a single nanite from a single drone into the great link then it would be game over for the founders (assuming of course that the borg could assimilate changeling physiology)
The Borg, due to sheer size of numbers, and its ability to quickly adapt, would likely still win.
But the Dominion, dominating nearly an entire quadrent of the galaxy, and its ability to rapidly construct ships and crew for them, would put up,
And i cannot stress this enough,
1
Huge
Hot
Flaming
*HELL*
of a fight.....a fight that would be beyond Biblical proportion...
ever noticed that we never see an Andorian or Tellarite officer in Starfleet on main ship show despite being UFP members of long standing
Do your research, the Wolf 359 battle sequence with Sisko on the USS Saratoga had a Bolian officer in command role and a Vulcan Captain. by the 24th century, the UFP and Starfleet is so large and expansive, you won't typically see the founder races in every scene .
There were Klingon ships there. Early VFX shots had them in the background in THE EMISSARY but these shots were simplified for being "too busy". Some of these shots survived in a Paramount promo for DEEP SPACE NINE that went to their affiliates.
.. I doubt the validity of that claim. I'm not saying you're lying but there's no evidence I've found of that.. and that sounds second hand trek-fanon ... CBS, startrek.com - and the creators all say there were no klingons at the battle. It's definitive canon that they didn't make it.. even if we find the claim that they had intended for them to be there.
I have the tape. I worked with XETV Channel 6 in San Diego in the early '90s. It's literally 3 seconds in a montage of clips.
+peterthx Ok..well if you say so. That said..official Canon per the IP holders and the footage show they never made it in time. So as you say..footage was cut.
They used the dominion war to get rid of all their old ships that were proved obsolete by this battle. So many Miranda class and Excelsior class flying straight into the path of Dominion weapons so that the hero ships like the defiant class could use their floating hulks as obstacles and save the day.
Probably all cadets to.. noone likes cadets..
I love your videos! Very well thought out, great job.
Wolf 359 is the 9/11 of Starfleet
Yea, that's not inaccurate.
Because Star Fleet went on to invade other smaller Races/Empires based on made up reasons only to gain access to their resources?
Lore Reloaded it was certainly the Pearl Harbor of Starfleet.
Actually borg ships did use particle shields as was seen in the voyager episode where the queen asked Seven how to adapt to the superior phasers that were used by the species they were assimilating. She said adjust the shape of the shields to absorb the blasts as energy to be used to strengthen the shields.
The tech utilized was the tech available at wolf 359. Particle shields were not included in that. That said, I think the magnetic fields and what not are far superior to shields.. they adapt..shields don't.
Out of 40 ships 1 survived. Who is that badass ship and crew?
Love your videos, learning a lot I didn‘t really know or consider. When you list all the ships and their classes it would‘ve been nixce to have it written on the screen as well, after te second one my brain tuned out ^^
+Mätzle I'll consider that for future videos..thanks :)
39 starships destroyed and with just 11,000 losses???? Holy shit, all of those ships are seriously undermanned.
Some had crew compliments else than 90
I agree that the Federation was unprepared for the Borg, but I'm not sure what your point is. Even if the entire Federation fleet, the entire Klingon Fleet and the entire Romulan fleet had all been united at Wolf 359 they still would have lost. The Borg were just that far ahead of them. I also agree that the Borg were what prepared Starfleet for the Dominion War although they were *still* behind the Dominion technologically, at least at first.
As far as the Borg vs the Dominion, that's a hard one to call since there's a lot of issues that we don't have an answer to. Could the Borg assimilate a Founder? Could they get their hands on one even if they could? There's no obvious answers to these questions and they would have a huge impact on a hypothetical war between them. Personally I don't think the Jem'hadar are much of a match for the Borg in the long run. Particularly not when you start assimilating them and sending them back against other Jem'hadar. The Vorta can't reason with them, although Vorta scientists might be able to find a way to disrupt the collective. They'd certainly have no moral qualms about the plan Picard rejected to use what was basically a computer virus to wipe them all out. (It's arguable if that would have worked though. They didn't know about the Borg Queen at the time and she would have had enough awareness to shut that down). But I'd at least give an advantage to the Borg on their industrial capacity. Whether or not Vorta scientists would have been able to exploit a weakness in the Borg would be down to whoever was writing that episode.
Michael Spence the dominion would give the borg a good run for there money but the borg will eventually beat them with sheer numbers
I agree the that Borg have a pretty big advantage, but from a Doylist perspective you can't count the Dominion out. The writers have plenty of room to invent some bullshit for the Vorta to discover some weakness in the collective the same way the Federation did. From a Watsonian perspective, the Vorta would be carrying the bulk of the burden in that fight since the Founders can't really sow dissension or do much information gathering and the Jem'hadar don't really match up against tactical drones. I'm sure the Borg would adapt to the kamikaze tactics the Dominion is so fond of, so it would be down to the Vorta to come up with a counter measure. Whether they can do that in time or not is up in the air.
These things don't happen in a vacuum though, and I could see the Dominion asking the Federation for help fighting them. I seriously doubt the Borg could stand up to a Federation/Dominion alliance.
The Dominion mass produces a clone army basically. The Borg convert whole races into their ranks. So in an out lasting conflict the Borg would win out, as any losses the Dominion would take would be the Borg's gain. Man imagine how much more unstoppable the Borg would be with the Dominion's cloning tech.
Not true, Michael Spence. The Borg were never immune to any amount of power. They were immune to specific frequency ranges at a time because they had more available power to than a comparatively smaller Federation ship. If they were against an opponent at a similar power scale the Cube would suffer substantial shield or hull damage.
The Klingon, Federation and Romulan fleet would not, at that time, have constituted a similar power scale to a Borg cube.
I head canon the anachronistic ship designs being part of the Wolf 359 flotilla as whatever could be scrounged up from fleet depots and nearby starbases under short notice. I also don't know how well Adm. Hanson realised his mistake and changed tactics before the cube zeroed in on his flagship and smashed it. That probably doomed the defenders more than anything else IMO. Picard being assimilated would among other things have meant the Borg would know how vulnerable Starfleet's hierarchical authority driven culture would be to disruption. ;)
As for who would win between the Borg and Dominion, I'd actually give it to the Dominion depending on the scenario. The Borg aren't a conventional opponent and they're not interested in conquering other species for the purposes of acquiring territory. So it would probably be a similar situation we see in Wolf 359. The Borg send a single cube to probe the Dominion and see if they have enough interesting technology to acquire. From examples we see in canon and dialogue Guinan implies in QWho, the Borg come en masse to assimilate entire worlds and populations. But they don't appear to do that from the beginning, for whatever reason.
What would really settle it is whether the Jem'Hadar and in particular the Founders could be assimilated. I suspect neither one can be, which is why I give it to the Dominion. But if that assumption is incorrect then that changes things. For instance if the Great Link could be found and assimilated then the Dominion is finished. Big IF tho. If the Jem'Hadar can be assimilated then their reckless and suicidal style of combat would be at a disadvantage.
awesome video. this battle always shook me!
glad you enjoyed
I'd be keen to see a video done from the perspective of a news crew doing a report from the battlefield
you would figure after the Whale Probe nearly destroyed earth some 100 years before the Borg Cube , the sector 001 would have some sorta defense , instead of 3 sentry turrets that make up the Mars Defense Force...
The video closely echos Q a J-25… he was trying to protect the UFP from military complacency. Honestly Q was probably a saviour of the Federation to a far greater degree than is ever acknowledged, on screen or off.
I do enjoy the theory that Q recruited humans to fight the borg..
Y'know, I'd actually argue that the Federation had less "developed a God complex (they're basically run on- and by Earth, so that's pretty much implied)" than contracted an extreme case of Victory disease.
I thought Constitution class starships had been retired by the time of the Battle of Wolf 359. Maybe Starfleet pulled one out of retirement because there were low on ships.
That's fair.. They did throw other ships that had no reason being there.. Maybe everything but the kitchen sink approach
It’s common for ships to be refit, it was probably used for minor tasks. Then at wolf they threw everything at it
Imagine being a Starfleet officer.. Thrown into the bridge of a constitution class and told 'Hey,,we are throwing everything we got to try in stop this.. By the by.. You know the galaxy class flag ship? Yea.. It has almost destroyed it about 5 times now..also the federation is cancelled all health plan coverage.. K-THX-BAI-Good Luck!!
Qapla!
I think that using the full force of Klingon weapons would be effective, provided they all co-ordinated their fire to impact the borg with maximum force in an extremely short time period. As we see that the enterprise is able to do massive (20%) damage to the borg cube whilst not even using maximum firepower
the dominion (shape shifters - one collective linked together when liquid) would win, since the borg were not truly a hive mind. the borg were mostly (ants) supporting a queen. she was a common point of failure/weakness/pride/ego.
by the way, the near conquest of earth was anther part of the wake up call. Don't forget the Federation was dealing with the dominion almost at the same time and other problems popping up at the same time too.
Indeed.
If I could make one little critique of this video: Cheyenne is pronounced Shy-Anne.
Awesome battle breakdown!
That
Wolf 359 was the biggest defeat to the Federation 39 ships destroyed two commanders killed and Sisko lost his wife when the Borg destroyed his ship. Of the ships destroyed 15 were Miranda Class Scouts and 10 were Oberth Class Science Vessels. The rest were newer Nebula Class Marauders, Cheyenne Class Cruisers, Springfield Class, Freedom Class, and New Orleans Frigates, and Niagara Class and Ambassador Heavy Cruisers. Of the command ships two Constitutions and Hanson's flagship USS Melbourne an Excelsior Class were destroyed. This battle proved the Federation was not ready. In those 3 years The Breen attacked Earth, the Romulans crossed the border twice, The Dominion invaded the Alpha Quadrant and started the Dominion War, the Sona violated the Khitomer Accords, and the Cardassians occupied Bajor and Deep Space 9 for a second time. By 001 they were ready the Defiant Class replaced the outdated Mirandas, the Intrepid Class replaced the outdated Excelsiors, the Sovereign Class replaced the outdated Constitution Class, and the Prometheus Class replaced the Galaxy Enterprise Class which was starting to show its age.
I always wonder why after this The Best of Both Worlds, Why was Ryker demoted and Shelby transferred? In our navy if a captain were lost to an enemy, The 1st officer would get the ship as new captain, field promotions are generally permanent. Then when an officer is recovered from an enemy, like Picard from the Borg, He'd be put into shore duty for at least a year or two for evaluation. Then after that period May be given a command again. But this isn't the case here. The next episode "Family" Ryker, is a commander again, and no sign of Shelby. Something to think about.
Wolf 359 was the point the Federation lost it's naive innocence. The Borg forced the Federation to face the reality of their mortality. The Universe can be a rough place, and you need to be able to handle that. The Federation had become complacent and forgotten that truth. The Borg reminded them.
I agree
Dominion Vs Borg... I don't know who would win but a simulated Jem'hadar sounds terrifying
The Borg... the only person who can destroy the Borg is Janeway... lol
Great how ppl were asimalated at that battle , " but the ship and all the Borg on it were destroyed"
They didn't live in the hell of assimilation for long.. and yea, never thought of that..
Lore Reloaded ,as there must be lore discrepancies as in voyager it's said several times , asimalated at w359
I wonder if some star fleet officers hated Picard because of his reluctant involvement. Im sure Cisco definitely hated him.
Hmmm.. yeah, a bunch of cargo haulers and science ships. It's kinda like the rebel alliance sending the medical frigate and the transports from Hoth to the battle of Endor.
@4:40
Curious, what would admiral Hansen been able to do had his fleet still been intact? Try a different formation? It seems like the Borg were THAT tough of a nut to crack.
I somehow doubt that the Oberth was there in a combat role. Even in a desperate situation, they would know that she would contribute next to nothing in that fight. So I feel like she was likely not there to use her guns, but rather, for one of these roles:
1. Information gathering and recording. This was a new enemy. Starfleet probably wanted the Bonestell there to take readings and see how the Fleet did against this new type of threat.
2. Tactical control. Much like a modern AWACS plane, she might have been there to provide a sort of battlefield command and control, directing attacks and coordinating ships. That's a lot of vessels against one target!
3. Enemy jamming. Maybe she was there to attempt some kind of sensor scrambling against the Cube, anything to give Starfleet an advantage.
4. Wasn't even meant to be there but got caught in the fight.
She then either wandered too close or ran out of friends way faster than her crew expected and was cut down before she could jump away. Similarly, we probably saw so many older ships there because the Cube was pretty deep into Federation space by the time it was intercepted, so there were a lot of second-and third-line ships nearby. The Constitution was probably either a cargo ship or a ceremonial ship by then and just happened to get swept up in the charge.
they were also at the battle of sector 001 - some have stated that they could have been for recon - but I wonder if they were just throwing everything they had at the problem.
@@LoreReloaded It was a desperate measure, but I think that wouldn't happen since the Oberths were just so weak and insignificant. It would have been throwing a crew away for nothing. For all we know the Bonestell just got hit by a flying chunk of nacelle or something.
have never understood how Picard got to carry on, Sisko's attitude in DS9 would have been so universal any democratic society would have opted to find him a nice job in the JAG or something
My Head-canon on that un-named Constitution has always been that it was NCC-1701--A Enterprise, hastily pulled out of museum-ship mothballs, because it was a ship in Sector 001. I know it probably isn't, but I really want to believe it is...I mean, what other Constitution would still be around?
I actually woudl have loved that.. but i think most star trek fans would hate it..
@@LoreReloaded That is why I think they did not name the ship. People who would like it can make the inferrence, but by not explicitly saying it on screen, they can always deny it.
I'm 100 years late to this discussion, and I'm sure this must have been brought up. However, there is no evidence at this point in the series run to suggest that the are no Constitution-class ships still in service. Just because we hadn't seen one up until this battle, doesn't mean there aren't others. After all, if the Miranda-class (originally from the same era) is still in use, why shouldn't the Constitution be? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's interesting how so many comments assume unequivocally, that the Constitution-class is long gone.
I believe the New Orleans was an experimental right off the assembly line new for this engagement and part of Starfleet's anti-Borg research initiative. I do recall it being mentioned in one of those 2 episodes that almost everything they had in relation to combating the Borg was still in the drawing phase.
Now something I was wondering. Did the USS Raven launch to study the Borg before or after Wolf359? I don't recall the time line around this but I had wondered maybe if it was after that this was in secret, an unsanctioned scout mission to find out more about the Borg or a Section 31 initiative.
I looked it up because of the discussion on the community tab.. Wolf 359 happened after the raven..and Seven of nine was hit with tubules..
Hey Lore Reloaded! Love everything you do man. Can you do an episode on the phase cloak and why the Khitomer Accords were such a dumbass move for Starfleet? Thanks in advance! If you don't it's cool still gonna watch everything you do.
I'll put it in the hopper.
Lore Reloaded you're a gentlemen and a scholar sir, thank you!
Wait a second. I thought the Nebula class weren't introduced until around the time of the Cardassian pullout from Bajor.
Nope..existed before then..watch the wounded.
So the top of the line of starfleet ships were at the battle. It was a slaughter. They sent speed boats to fight a battle ship.
That moment you realize the Federation would have lost if the Borg sent more than one ship at a time. But I suppose that wouldn't make for a very exciting story. XD
slapchop133787 that one cube was a scout probing the feddies for there ability to defeat borg. Usually a borg cube or sphere would be enough for assimilation of a civilization I think.
The only ship to survive was the last one to arrive: the Enterprise: NCC-1701-D.
In Star Trek Armada I always put my ships in the formation of a big vertical square so every bugger could shoot at once.
I loved Armada.. Wish they had an updated (actual updated - not a mod)
Don't suppose you'd be able to do one about the Firebrand?
Do they ever explain why the ships wouldn't hang back at maximum range and just unload their full complement of photon torpedoes? The Borg cube doesn't seem to care about dodging, and surely the torps have the range and guidance to hit them from 100's of 1000's of kilometers away?
Very nice job on the video although I think you should redo it but include images and renderings of the ships destroyed, I believe this will enhance the video.
Thanks, I'll consider that.
How about a what if video of Picard taking command of DS9?
That would be an interesting scenario
about time they do a proper new star trek series set 25 years after TNG. Start it off with a massive borg war where the big 3 from the alpha/beta quadrants are allied against them.
Actually 2 ships survived the battle with the borg. USS Righteous. Excelsior class, maybe do a video on that? 😂
Q was the hero!! 😂😂
Great video. I hope you do a analysis of the Battle of Sector 001 and compare and contrast the two.
Definetly will put it into the hopper. There's two ways to make it come faster though.. Make sure you clicked the icon for notifications.. My youtube channel now has a 'community' tab and i'll often do votes tos ee what people want me to do (Sector 001 will be on there) .. you can also become a patron at patreon and request and it will get moved to the front of the hopper.. Ooooooor just sit back and I'll get to it eventually.. either way works ;)
One thing I can say that was a mistake about the battle of sector 001; The strategy seemed to be fly around and shoot wherever. If it wasn't for Picard's sudden "borg telepathy," I would still have accepted it becuase they concentrated the fleet's weapons on a single point.
Sure thing!
"hey guiz, I've got this neat strategy. Lets make absolutely certain not to use our numerical superiority, and only attack the vast Borg warship with three boats at a time".
>expects things to go well.
I've found context helps when one mocks to ensure they don't look silly
Seems like the Federation would have been better off just emptying some of those weaker ships of their crews and then having the computer auto-pilot them at full warp speed right into the Borg Cube.
agreed
Q did them a fafor. the cube that came in the first contact movie summoned itself and was underway to assimilate earth only a few years later. thanks to wolf 359 the federation had some Idea of what a cube heading to earth meant. their ships lasted longer and the souvreign class was likley better armed then the galaxy class it replaced. they needed that wake up call.
And then the Borg designed weaker ships. I guess the Queen was a bad addition to the collective.
indeed
The Borg smoke hash everyday
who decided what the borg icon should be ?
Anyone else find it awfully convenient that the Borg cube didn't obliterate the Saratoga right off the bat?
The Star Fleet, Prime Directive , and the Klingon Empire ; Question: I was under the impression That the prime directive came to pass when Star Fleet made an uninvited attempt to introduce themselves to the Klingon Empire, which started a long war, that Kirk was involved in. The Empire had all but won the war when the Klingons, for no apparent rime or reason, pulled back to Klingon space and the cold war issued. if so that would make a great move are someone set me straight. Sorry to get off subject. The Dominion would have come in contact with Borg before the Federation if not for Q. The Dominion in it's sted fast ways of infiltration would have been at a lose with the borg, and the borg sending one lone ship after another would soon adapt to the Dominion's tactic's and technology, and over run them and the jimhadar in the middle.
I'd have to go back and look to be sure.. I remember it involved the klingons..though them winning to the point of pulling back doesn't ring a bell. It's through the power of plot that the borg don't auto-win in most every instance.. So yea, I mean you could say the same of the federation ultimately. They would continue to come until they beat them down.
I wouldn't say that the Admiral did anything wrong. To deploy a fleet in battle lines really very clever and used to be (before missiles) a must in any naval battle if you hope to win. It all comes down to being abel to allow ships to cover each other and keeping the most firepower pointed at the enemy. Deploying in two battle lines is a good strategy. It would allow the first line to fire all weapons while being faced towards the borg the retreat under the cover of the second line only to deploy in a new line to cover the second line. As opposed to swarming the borg which would allow the borg to one by one take out ships as they accidentally gets isolated in the chaos. And it would avoid as you see in the battle of sector 001 a load of ships with their side towards the borg making the unable to effectively use torpedos and phaser canons. For example look at the battle of Tsushima and the battle of Jutland.
Loved your video
Taking into account that the spanish won that war despise losing the fleet, it is not wrong to compare Wolf 359 with that event.
I must wonder, which ship survived? In voyager, a USS Endeavour had a log on the borg, suggesting it may have been here and survived
BlackBox principle. There's a high chance the log survived but the ship didnt.
I honestly could not find a reference to which ship actually survived. We have clues but it would seem that there are indications that it may be different ships.. The USS Awhahnee was salvaged and some claim that was the one to survive, but I don't think so.. I think they just salvaged it..
Chris K true, but as we see in voyager, the crew had to manually launch a blackbox, so I'd think they'd be to distracted by being attacked by the borg (the episode Im referring to is the one with the fake voyager)
Lore Reloaded yeah, I wouldn't think that would be the case... Perhaps one of the later ships to enter the engagement survived, perhaps it was simply a ship we didn't see on screen