Это видео недоступно.
Сожалеем об этом.
Dominion War : Justified Civillians Losses
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 10 июл 2019
- What's up Lore Masters,
This is part two of a breakdown for Rules of Engagement.. Check this one out first: • Dominion War : That Ti...
#DominionWar #rulesofengagement #WorfDinduNuffin
================================================
Want More Lore?!
Star Trek Lore: goo.gl/McF2i5
Star Wars Lore: goo.gl/Hzyrk2
Battle Star Galactica Lore: goo.gl/jpPPUY
Star Trek Dominion War: goo.gl/fmwtPf
================================================
Twitter: / lorereloaded
Facebook: / lorereloaded
Twitch: / lorereloaded
Patreon: / lorereloaded
================================================
Come Hang out while I play..
Mixer: goo.gl/YhgNiE
Twitch: goo.gl/kiVw8w
===============================================
Citations! These are my most often used resources:
Memory Alpha: memory-alpha.wi...
Trekyards: / knightstalker666
Spacedock: / @spacedock
Ex Astria Scientia - www.ex-astris-s...
================================================
The music in this video is licensed Royalty Free.
Songs:
Music by:
© 2017 Epidemic Sound
Cloaking Device is *military* hardware. A cloaked ship under the rules of war is a military vessel. A Klingon Military Vessel, in an engagement zone where Klingon Military Vessels are engaging a Federation ship in combat, is a viable target.
So that means that cops are MILITARY personnel? Cause they have guns and armored cars, you know, MILITARY hardware
@@edgardox.feliciano3127 Cops don't have rocket launchers, tow missiles, tanks with main guns, or supersonic fighter jets. A Cloaking Device is not civilian hardware.
We see numerous civilian ships, they have defensive shields and light beam weapons. No hints of anything that could actually threaten anything heavier than a small pirate ship.
@@lynngreen7978 some police forces have APC’s you know (almost always fitted with a water tank and cannon but still) also no matter the cloak being military hardware the argument could be made that at least for the Klingons most civilian ships are decommissioned military ships and that the cloaking technology is left on as a defensive device against piracy attacks from other houses in secret etc.
@@sockshandle Treaties, like Algeron, stipulate that Cloaks are Military technology. If it was that easy, Starfleet could field cloaked ships and say "civilian ship" when caught.
My question, is why does a Klingon civilian transport ship have a cloaking device? It wasn't military, so do ALL Klingon ships, even passenger transports and cargo freighters have cloaks?
Maybe if they were normally only on military ships, they outfitted these transport ships especially in order to increase their chances of survival
Actually, it'd make tons of sense if you asked me: not being seen in the first place is especially valuable when you're an under-armed ship carrying lots of people.
@@OllamhDrab It makes sense on the one hand - on the other I doubt that most militaries target civilian craft (if they do then other powers might step in or at least dial back support!)...a cloak on the other hand makes the ship look military on sensors (if either the cloak is penetrated or the ship is scanned before it engages the cloak!)
Klingon cloaks are about a century old at this point (it's new technology in Discovery, which is roughly contemporary with TOS, and DS9 is set about a century later). It's not unreasonable to suppose that what was purely military tech a century ago has been adapted for civilian uses over that time period, even in the Klingon Empire.
@@dreamingflurry2729 Well, transports can be military, too.
I'm not sure the Klingon Advocate actually knew about the deception When Sisco presented the list of names he seemed genuinely surprised. Not to mention his earlier willingness to defend worf should he be extradited.
While that does make sense based on what we see in the show, it is an unbelievably stupid idea to have an advocate that isn't part of the conspiracy. It would be so much harder to catch the advocate in an untruth if the advocate knew what lies to tell.
In Germany (my country) your hypothetical about the wife killing the dying husband would be called, Tötung auf Verlangen, meaning loosly, killing on demand, which is still illegal but usually warrants a couple of month probation.
3 Questions Sisko should have asked:
1. What was the mental state and history of the transports captain.
2. Why would a civilian transport captain endanger his crew and passengers to attack a Federation ship.
3. What was a civilian transport doing in a combat area.
Well... the man fart nuked a colony... something tells me his mental processes when it comes to possible civilian casualties wasn’t exactly a straight line. Or reasonable. Or unreasonable. Bordering on insanity in fact.
But he did. And it led to the discovery of the fake transport.
@@iona2225 The "fart nuking" as you call it was almost a year after this episode so can't really be used to inform his decision-making in this episode.
Sisko did ask that... well, technically he asked Odo to get him those answers between sessions, not Ch'Pok.
@@VChen47 no. he got the transport's history, not the ships captain. Also, they never said what he/she was doing attacking a Federation ship. All Odo did was find the out it was a rouse. If Sisko had asked those 3 questions in order, the Klingon Lawyer wouldn't have been able to anwser without lining.
7:23 I've always thought that when the advocate said "I thought you've said you'd never attack an unarmed man." that the advocate was armed. He was armed with words and out right attacking Worf with the threats (like you said) against him and his child.
Who says he doesn't have a d'k tagh in his boot, anyway? If he's a Klingon, he's part of a martial society whose citizens know they may need to fight at almost any time, even if he's not a space warrior.
A little context for the implied Klingon Military in Star Trek Next Generation through to Enterprise E Movies.
It is implied in Video Games and some Episodes.
Klingon Ships are equipped with inferior then Romulan Cloaking Devices and make up for it with better Armor.
Also it is implied that the Klingon Empire doesn't Actually have a fleet. Instead each individual house has their own ships and fleet. Then to try and gain some measure of Defense against outside attacks.
The Klingons formed the Klingon Defense force. That is formed from supposed to be loyal to the Empire and each house to be the most powerful. To make the Klingon High Council and the back bone of the Defense force.
Now this is indicated in dialogue in an Episode of The Next Generation where Picard selected the new Chancellor and where Worf took banishment to try and prevent a civil war.
Last note it is indicated in both Ship Design and in Video games that Klingons emphasize forward mounted weapons.
Further legitimize Warfs Response.
Regarding the ploy being more the kind used by Romulans, I'm reminded of how SFDebris described Klingon honor, less of chivalry code and more the kind of battles won, trophies collected and standing among your people. There is some decency involved to a degree, but look back to the TOS era and this seems like exactly the kind of thing they would do. Cunning and outflanking your opponent is a part of battle, too.
I was always under the impression that cloaking devices were military grade equipment, since when were they fitted on civilian crafts?
Indeed! A transport only needs a cloak if it carries sensitive material or VIPs (Presidents, Generals, Admirals etc.)...civilian shipping might need shields and a few defensive weapons, but a cloaking device? I don't think so!
Military surplus and DIY hobbyist exist in the 24th Century, through several episodes we have seen and learned that there are a lot of people, who buy outdated tech and retrofit it onto ships (Sisko being one of them) or they install parts from excess surpluses, like the Ferengi warships for instance are usually customized in such a way based on supply and demand, not standardization. Klingon ships as well operate on a primitive system of "make do with what you can get and have" from various episodes.
While this would make sense in a modern world, but in the politic system of the Klingon empire; in a feudal system the line between military and civilian is not as clear line.
@@dreamingflurry2729 plus, have you ever heard of military surplus? It's when there is so much excess military supplies and equipment and material that some of it is sold on the civilian market. This same stuff happened with WWII equipment, you can literally buy a bazooka from the Pacific theater of the war for dirt cheap! Or a Jeep Wilys, which was a MILITARY transport!
They reference civilian transports having them in the Empire at various points. It is a military hardware, but it's not a proactive attack one. It's more defensive, and as someone else mentioned the feudal nature of the Empire often passes out weapons to people who happily pass it out to their underlings be they soldiers or not. But having the ability to cloak tradeships and keep them alive in war scenarios is big. This transport was still in an active war zone transporting to occupied Cardassian territory. Should be noted that Romulons have them on some of their civilian and political transports. The only thing I would mention to the author of this is the collateral damage could be argued more to the gross negligence of the Klingnon captain. If Sisko was even an ounce of good advocate this would have been the defense from the start, and pursued far more heavily. Even with the excuses given, space is monolithic in size. And seeing an active battle and going in front of a warship even when cloaked is just sheer stupidity. If it fired on one of the ships cloaked you'd be hit. It was so obvious a setup the Federation should have tilted its head and just told them to leave the espionage to the Romulons from the start.
After 200 engagements and 15 decorations, the advocat should offer O'Brien a promotion... every man has his price ;D
O’Brien didn’t want a promotion. He wanted to do Engineering if promoted further he would be doing less Engineering and more administrative work.
O'Brien was a Cheif Petty Officer, that's a VERY senior rank for an enlisted man. critcizing him for being just a CPO is like looking at Data and saying "he's only a Lt Commander"
After 200 engagements, O'Brien should be dead. Roll the dice that many times, and your number is going to come up. And probably long before reaching the 200th roll. Death in battle is usually impersonal. You can do everything right, and still get killed. It's just a matter of the odds. This is evidence the writes don't understand how things really work.
200 engagements yes but consider the context talks about his experiance with starship combat. So most of those where likely cases of serving on a federation ship that vastly out matched it's opponent
I really felt bad for Word in DS9. All he gained in tng he lost, he had to kill his good friend for the good of the empire, he never kept a relationship with his son. Plus the loss of dax.
As a lawyer, I can tell you that if new evidence was to be introduced at a trial, the trial theoretically should be be adjourned/put into recess to allow the other side to have the chance to review the evidence themselves so they can be prepared
are these rules universal across EVERY legal system? We shou;dn't nesscarily assume that the legal rules of the USA, UK etc are the same as the UFPs
briandavion Fair, but generally speaking, the UFP’s legal system seems to draw most of its inspiration from Western legal systems, so I don’t think it’s an unfair assumption that it would be a rule they have
@@fightingfalcon777 Maybe, but there are a few times in which we see Trek routinely get something wrong, and I sometimes wonder if maybe we should simply conclude that's how the legal system works. Case in point, Lore talked about how Sisko was serving as the Advocate, but it seems to me that at least in TNG moving forward it's common place for a captain to serve as an advocate for his crew member. Could JAG training be in fact REQUIRED for a Command level star fleet officer? It actually makes more sense then nit when you think of it. A Starship is, tradtionaly, ranging far from home, the captain is often times really the final arbitraror in many situations. ones where he may not have the luxery of sending for a Lawyer. It'd thus make sense that to be a styarship captain, you'd need a firm foundation in applying Federation law. We see as early as TOS a starship captain acting as "judgey jury and executioner" in the episode Space Seed. where Kirk has sufficane Leeway to essentially commute a charge of Piracy and opt to maroon the mutineers.
I think we need to see a Legal Eagle examine this episode.
I’m not so sure the Klingons would want to drag progress when they were caught in their lie since it would bring shame to them in the home world
A few points I would like to make. This extradition hearing (not actually a Trial)was being held as a military tribunal, not a civilian court of law, which is much different as to rules of evidence and procedure, not to mention the fact that you have 2 contrasting systems of justice at play. That said:
The situation is that the Defiant was on a convoy protection detail, NOT going into battle, and Sisko stressed that fact to Worf before he left. Having his shields up prior to being attacked could have been seen as provocation to the Klingons. The whole purpose of having a Federation Warship (a neutral party) was like keeping a big dog in your front yard. Its mere presence is supposed to be enough to make the aggressor think twice.
The Klingons were doing nip and hide. One ship would try to occupy (not necessarily damage) the Defiant while the second would go after the convoy. After each hit on the respective target, they would cloak, then hit from a different direction, then switch off. The actual objective was to draw the Defiant away from the convoy so that it could be raided. As you so rightly pointed out that this type of action, for as long as there have been wars, has been used, and is as more psychological than physical. It is meant to confuse the enemy. they establish a pattern, then when you've spotted how it works, they throw something new at you. (In this case, a cloaked, unarmed (and fortunately unmanned) transport. IF it had been a warship, by this point, Worf would have know that he had to take action even before it was fully uncloaked.
Yes, they were close to civilian shipping lanes, but, while being aware of the possibility, there is no reason to expect a civilian ship to uncloak in the middle of a battle. Which, of course, brings me to the question everyone else is. WHAT WAS A CIVILIAN TRANSPORT SHIP DOING WITH A CLOAKING DEVICE????
Perhaps Worf did jump the gun a bit, but it was clear from the start that he did not set out to kill unarmed civilians.
BTW. Props on the use of real life situations to illustrate the point.
It’s likely that that civilian transport was a former military ship in this case (it wasn’t too uncommon for retired navy trampers to be sold to private owners and refitted after all (heck NOAH uses modified military aircraft when they look at weather conditions in say a hurricane) and then there’s the chinook helicopters and likely military cargo aircraft (and in some cases the troop transports) being refitted for civilian transport.
Worf was right! There was NO logical reason to assume that a civilian ship would have one of the most guarded pieces of military gear in the galaxy!
Have you ever heard of military surplus? It's when there is so much excess military supplies and equipment and material that some of it is sold on the civilian market. This same stuff happened with WWII equipment, you can literally buy a bazooka from the Pacific theater of the war for dirt cheap! Or a Jeep Wilys, which was a MILITARY transport!
@@edgardox.feliciano3127 No way! We don't have surplus nuclear weapons, They don't have surplus cloaking devices!
@@trekjudas maybe not surplus nukes for dirt cheap, but stealth tech? That shots being built by corporations, for crying out loud!!!! Of course there gonna be on the market, depending on the size of your wallet, that is.
@@edgardox.feliciano3127 Consider this:The cloaking device is one of the greatest Klingon Assets in war.Can the Empire actually risk that some other civilisations,like the Breen or the Ferengi for examble,get their hands on it if they put it on the free market?Sounds not very reasonable to me.
@@edgardox.feliciano3127 There is no way the Klingon or Romulan empire is gonna let THAT piece of technology out to the public! It's to crucial just lt slip into the public!
Excellent breakdown. Youre 100% right that officers and noncoms have an obligation to question illegal orders. The episode raises questions we all had over there about the enemy using civilians. And how certain enemies wont hesitate to use civvies for PR victories. The actions of Worf would have never made it past internal inquiry in a modern military. Anyway, great stuff Lore.
You could do a whole series on Klingon cry bullying. Also, it's worth noting that O'Brien is an NCO, not a commissioned officer. This has relevance in his testimony.
Second this
@@travisdavis6778 how does this affect his testimony
@@wuyiwolf2660 As an ex enlisted man myself, before even the highest ranking "enlisted" or NCO guy gets to be in charge, every officer - except Chaplains - would have to be dead. NCO's are the workers and the backbone of the military, the commissioned officers are the ones in charge... and they fly the planes.
He is a high level NCO at that level many Jr officers while technically could give him orders normally will not do to their lack of experience compared to the chief. Also Starfleet never had a major NCO until O’Brian. TNG had him as a LT for the first few seasons. And Ensigns were the low man on ship.
There's also the detail of Gene Rodenberry and his idea of all Starfleet personnel being officers. I suspect that Mr. Rodenberry's rumored dislike of enlisted people would make for some fun clickba I MEAN ENGAGEMENT. Yes, engaging content.
Since the Klingons had cut off diplomatic relations there was no extradition treaty. Therefore the trial was pointless.
Wait; *Klingons* complaining about civilian losses? Dahar Master Kor would have walked into that court room, bitch slapped that Klingon lawyer and laughed on his way out. The guys were committing war crimes in the TOS era like it was going out of style, and there wasn’t even a war during the time!
Edit: Spelling
iona2225 lmfao
You are right. He wouldn't have even done the backhand hit we see a lot. It would have been a straight up slap because the guy wasn't worthy of more.
If I remember correctly, it's established early in the episode that the Federation and the Klingon Empire have completely broken off diplomatic relations. But without diplomatic relations, they have no standing in Federation courts. They can't file any kind of case against Worf. The writers really didn't understand how the real world works.
And they though they were writing some kind of police shooting story. But this was a combat story. That's why Sisco's chewing out Worf was so idiotic. As the sole escort for a convoy, the Defiant was not expendable. Period. If it was lost, ALL the convoy ships would be destroyed. So the convoy ships were more expendable than the Defiant. As long as two of those ships were still alive, Worf would be justified in sacrificing one to save the other. It's only when a single ship was left that Worf could even think about letting the Defiant be destroyed. That's real world arithmetic. If you don't like that, then send more than one escort.
Thank you for bringing up the Bowfin and the Tsushima Maru. For those that don't know the Bowfin is actually in Pearl Harbor next to the USS Missouri. The Tsushima Maru incident is glossed over but it was a horrific event in the Pacific Campaign.
I would postulate that the birds of prey made "hit and run" against the convoy, not the Defiant.
I watched the episode after the first part (I should say "Re-watched") and O'Brien said that one (call it "Ship A") would hit the Defiant and the other(Ship "B") would go after the convoy, cloaking and uncloaking, then switch, Ship "B" would nip at the Defiant, and ship "A" would hit the convoy.)
The problem with what worf did was the ships that fired on defiant was just a nuisance, they don't pose a threat to the defiant. So it wasn't a life or death situation when a ship decloaked right on top of the defiant.
9:30 It was just a couple of trilithium warheads, Lore. Just let it go. A little chemical warfare never hurt anyone
And hell, you always have a Genesis device laying around if you want to fix that ol' tainted biosphere up in a jiff!
@@Corbomite_Meatballs or just use that in the first place. Call it a genosiscide device.
Using it is morally because you're creating life from the life you're destroying
Siskos talk with Worf is one of my favorites. How Sisko talks about how a captain/leader must take of his/her troops has always stuck with me.
When you pay attention to something even to criticize it, that attention is a sign of love, not hate. The opposite of love is indifference.
Worf was right for what he did this has been shown over in over in Vietnam where your bening attacked in a hit and run fashion plus what if that transport was an actual warship it's as if a pregnant woman runs out a hut with an grenade that instance you fire you kill the woman then find she had a grenade a German u boat it and run then they turned to an unarmed freighter as you turn to fire on the u boat the unarmed freighter becomes a armed ship and fires on you the boat never fired it was all a trick to draw you in word was right Cisco was wrong for putting word on the carpet
'Romulan if the Romulans didn't know what they were doing.' :-D I love it. Stuff like that is why I'm a subscriber.
There is a standard of reason here. Was it possible that something other than an enemy ship to be decloaking at that moment? Sure. It's possible that every time he point his phaser at a man swinging a knife at a kid, he's actually hallucinating and seeing the kid as the aggressor and vice-versa. But it's not REASONABLE to assume that based on the circumstances.
The 'you should have verified the target' attitude of Sisko and O'brien is not a *reasonable* chastisement or objection in the circumstances, as there was no reasonable expectation of anything other than an enemy ship following the established pattern to be the one decloaking in this war zone.
Yeah, if you're a civilian transport, you don't freaking decloak in the middle of a *battle,* is kind of an obvious point, here. especially when you can see that's exactly how other cloaked ships are making *attacks.*
One thing that's always bothered me about cloaking ships is how the moment they start to cloak no one shoots at them anymore, or they miss. I mean if you're fighting another ship and it's image fades you still basically know where the ship is for a couple seconds, and since cloaking requires dropping shields what better time is there to blast it? Now add in computer targeting systems and it makes destruction of the enemy ship even more likely as your targeting computer could be set to sweep it's beams over the area immediately around the last known position and it's projected path.
Just watched this episode early this morning. Starfleet was for sure pulling some punches here. I'm sensing some sorta trap here. Like the Defiant, and possibly even Worf, got suckered into blowing up a random transport by the Klingons as part of some plot targetting the Feds for helping the Cardis or maybe something by someone with a problem with Worf himself on finding he was there..
Not too farfetched. Set a pattern they got to know Defiant will pick up on, then have a waiting transport decloak, an deliberately get in the way. Suckering Starfleet into an incident... for all we know the transport didnt even have anyone in it.
The advocate is definitely gunning for Worf every which way he can. Having an Engineer declared a combat expert from previous experience, using a very high tech video game to judge mental capacity and status as well as what's in his "heart".. this was a witch hunt
In a staight up out fire fight rightly the defiant class should out power 3 to 4 klingon bird preys amd still take puck shots from more kling bird of prays.
captianjessie1 that little ship is one tough bastard
7:24 also...the advocate is just as well armed as Worf is armed: they have Klinong arms. Worf sort of punch-smacked him, he didn't draw a knife, phaser, or anything else. He used his hand and, importantly, he used it only once! This should show that Worf is very well-restrained, even I had the impulse to punch the advocate and I'm not even Klingon defending his own son.
Cloaking technology is such a closely guarded secret that the only reason the Romulans let the Federation borrow one is if one of their officers came a long to safeguarded. She was awesome! The idea of having a Romulan as a regular cast member was awesome!! Why did they drop her after only two episodes?????
Remember: Klingons are a highly militarised people. Pretty much ALL able bodied adults are involved in the military in one way or another. Including freighter crews. Its why being threatened with demotions to a 'garbage scow' are effective - because it can be done to partially inept or feeble Klingons who fail to live up to the standards of their superiors.
Also remember the Klingons have had cloaking technology for nearly two hundred years at this point. Its standard equipment for them.
Worf's defence relied on believing a freighter can't be a combatant, when we know full well that any Klingon is likely to want to engage in combat when given the chance. Decloaking in the middle of a battle is a hostile action, especially if no prior communications (not hindered by cloaks or shields) were given to essentially 'wave the white flag' to indicate they are not hostile. Which is what you'd do if your cloak was failing for whatever reason - which is the only reason to decloak in the middle of a battle you aren't intending on joining.
Worf was right. 100%. Sisko was wrong on this matter. Worf made the right choice, and its blatantly obvious the Klingons did it on purpose.
Great breakdown. On your point about how you can be critical of the episode making no sense and yet love the ending & the speach parts of the episode. That is exactly what is missing in Star Trek Discovery, you could suspend disbelief for parts of the story that make no sense if there was great moments. Sadly that's not the case.
I find the more we break down an episode shows how much we do like said episode/series. We invest our time thoughts and feelings, So much more when we look closer.
Good work Legal Eagle. Now go get yourself that sweet Indochino suit. You've earned it.
I would say I stand with Worf on the matter, if I were fighting cloaked vessels in a combat area and another uncloaked in front of me I would fire on it. During WW1 and 2 the British Navy outfitted normal ships with weapons to attack an opponent. Worf could have been thinking it was a Q-Ship.
Not to mention Letters of Marque. Which quite literally made a civilian ship a warship. Hell there's a clause in the US constitution to issue them even. Who's to say that hadn't come back into fashion in Trek?
You should do a breakdown of Empok Nor as a microcosm of the militarization of Starfleet. O'Brian goes from thinking like an engineer and focused on getting the job done quickly into full-blown soldier mode. The relative incompetence of the security officers and the excitement of the engineers over just being able to carry a phaser also showcase how unprepared for war Starfleet was, even this late in the game.
One of your best Videos yet, James! Well done!
In War no Civilian Loses should be justified same with any conflict.
They all should be felt as if Lead Chains are weighing you down maybe not during the battle but after at least.
That's my opinion.
I don't disagree
@JRPGFan20000 The Civilians are the ones not fight not trained caught in the cross fire in the War.
If any Army can not differentiate between Civilian and combatant then they should be taken out by the one's who can.
@@theimmortalsuperbeing549 There are indeed civilians in wartime, but that does not mean that civilian casualties are completely unacceptable. If you adopt that stance, your opponent will absolutely use it against you, knowing that as long as you refuse to fire on any targets that could have the possibility of civilians in them, they've got you by the balls.
The sooner you show them that you're willing to burn it to the ground, civilians and all, the sooner they'll stop using innocents as meat-shields.
@@sergeantassassin3425 I'm not disagreeing with you and I know that there are those out there ( ISIS ) who would do that but what about Soldiers like THE SAS and THE NAVY SEAL teams there purpose is to infiltrate and take down the Enemy combatants which the other Soldiers like The Infantry could not take down with out major Civilian casualties or am I misinterpreting what there for ?.
@@theimmortalsuperbeing549 Spec. Ops units are for when you have to limit your force size in an operation, but still need to hit very hard.
SEAL Team 6, for instance: they couldn't use a large force because Osama would see it coming and run away (again). They needed a small, highly-trained unit that specialized in infiltration and assassination. This team was just such a unit, and they got the job done.
Civilian casualties should be avoided whenever possible, without question...but that does not mean they should always be avoided. Like I said, if you give your enemy the idea that they can use innocent civilians as shields to prevent you from attacking, what do you think they're going to do?
They're gonna start rounding up as many hostages as they can, and place them in strategic locations they can't afford to have bombed into oblivion. Like terrorists IRL are doing right now.
If you show them that's not going to work anymore by, say, wiping out a town/village they were using as a front for terrorist activities, they're going to ditch the now-dead weight of the hostages, as they no longer do what they're supposed to do, and only consume resources without giving anything back.
Does it cost civilian lives? Sadly, yes. Does it prevent them from taking more and more hostages in the future? Yeah, it does. Now you can get back to doing what you're supposed to do: turning the opponent into an ugly grease-and-blood smear on the ground with dedicated artillery and naval bombardments, before swooping in with napalm-infused bunker busters and burning the cockroaches out of their little hidey holes for good. Don't even need to send a single troop in when you can glass the entire land these fuckers are standing on from a distance.
this is the equivalent of putting ww2 escort convoy captain in court of blowing up a fishing boat that he mis identified for a surfaced u-boat in the middle of the night. in fact this was a favorite tactic of the U-boat, they had very small silhouette whilst surfaced at night and convoys were often spread over dozens if not hundreds of kilometers of ocean. to wait in the path of a convoy while surfaced at night. then when the boat was in the middle of the convoy it would unleash all hell, the escorts can't shot at it without risking hitting the ships its surrounded by.
That last bit about Sisko and defending the Defiant instead of a convoy reminds me of issues with the police. I have been told that Canadian officers are only allowed to fire when another person's life is in danger, not when their own life is in danger. This is a Stark contrast to American officers who will shoot civilians because "he felt that his life was in danger" because "he could smell pot in the car".
Now I have to go rewatch this episode... Great breakdown tho, keep up the good work.
So, I am not an attorney in the Federation, but I am an attorney in the United States. A couple of points for perspective. This isn't a trial, it is an extra-judicial hearing, i.e. a hearing outside of the court system. This is a diplomatic matter. The rules of the court don't exactly apply. That might explain some of the procedural rules being different. Also, as a diplomatic matter, the importance of this case is to show the Klingons that the Federation is still impartial and wants to have a fair relationship with the Klingons. The Klingons demonstrate that they value having an advantage over someone else, regardless of the battlefield. It shows that the Federation does not understand the Klingons' values and the best ways to interact with them diplomatically.
love this kind of videos awesome job LR
Your theme music is bloody epic mate. I love it.
I do love you going in depth with the star trek shows . I have notice the same issue when my friends and I tell about other shows . They think I hate the show cause something happens that i felt was wrong . Many of the cop shows like Law and Order many times will do an injustice in order to win a case . The common things are a person use a right to remain silent , having a lawyer during questioning or refuse a search . That person is arrested a heart beat later .
The best thing about good Sci Fi it a way to explore those questions outside of current day settings .
In a way, I would rather have someone spend the time doing thoughtful analysis of good or fan fave shows, rather than blindly accepting that "OMG!!!!!11!!!! It's so awesome, and if you hatez u trollz!" type of mentality.
I think people can object to DIS for example, but everyone online is so polarized that you have to be either all in, or all out, and can't be a centrist with critical thinking.
Since that man was Eddington, and those thousands were Maquis sympathizers... worth it.
Being critical of something doesn’t mean you are opposed to it. Being fairly critical of something shows that you care enough about something that you want strengthen it. By fixing its week points.
Worf's guilty mind is that he killed the wrong people. He WANTED to kill warriors he didn't want to kill Civilians and he's holding himself to the impossible standards of Starfleet. Where 0% tolerance for mistakes (unless you're a player character) while being a very positive figure able to keep bad things from ever happening (unless you're a Player character then you're immune to your mistakes)
I once heard a reviewer call the Vulcan admiral here the "Judge Ito" of Starfleet for making numerous threats to the legal teams and not enforcing them.
Regarding Sisko's lecture to Worf that he should have known better - they exist in a universe where noncombatant ships can be identified with the push of a button. A WWII or modern soldier shooting rapidly in a free-fire zone with people popping up everywhere while he's under threat and unintentionally hitting a civilian happens frequently and he may be forgiven for it; however, if that soldier is shown to have had the opportunity to identify his target properly he won't be. As a soldier I don't get to pull the trigger on everything that moves just because its war. Sisko tells Worf that on occasion Starfleet officers must be willing to die rather than kill innocents. Those are their rules of engagement. In the US Army I have more leeway to defend myself if my life is in danger, but I'm also obligated to let the bad guy get away rather than raze the village. If Worf actually killed civilians he might have been able to defend that decision at a court martial if he believed the convoy would have been lost if he hadn't, but Sisko seems to think Worf could have afforded to wait the extra second or two.
Yeah one thing Cisco doesn't realize one big thing is don't fire the car you haven't identified well if that ship joined the battle and I'm in command of the ship guess what all the people that died are on my head and if my ship is destroyed and I somehow managed to launch escape pods guess what they skippods now target practice and everybody still dies anyways negligence just cost you and your entire crew your lives or worse you get captured tortured by the Klingons then you get killed. Cisco is a captain fought how many battles he should realize this
excellent analysis, strong point against war in general at the end there.
Another quality Lore Reloaded vid! :-)
Tactically it would actually make more sense for the two ships to operate off eachother, one attacks right after the other runs and from a diffrent angle forcing the starfleet ship to always be reacting and spinning around wasting impulse power to reposition as to protect the convoy.
This gives the Kingons the best chance of victory, and makes it a competition, which if the two captain's gets the kill on their run.
loving the video so far, but i just hit the point where Lore states there are no other Klingons available to be called as an expert and i have to point out, the Klingon chef who has a stand on the Promenade, not that disrails any point, and not sure how much of an expert he would be on the military aspects of the empire, but he is another Klingon
One aspect which would have proven the prosecuter's case, but was ignored, was the long-detailed informational speech that Morn had given in Quark's.
The ship was one old cruise and one bird of prey. Sicko only want warf to double check his target in a civil shipping area. Yes thing like that has happen in war. He also told warf that he need to also do things for his crew.
Friendly fire. They were at the wrong place at the wrong time! Today this wouldn't have even gone to trail.
The Klingons of TOS were devious and duplicitous. They had no qualms about using trickery and diversion if it served their interests. It wasn't until the movies and TNG that the Klingins became such bellicose Characatures of a Warrior culture. One could say that and the fall from grace is actually just the Klingons getting back to their roots.
As for “Expert Witnesses”,
their opinions DO matter.
O’Brien simply failed to communicate in a manner acceptable to the tribunal.
He started to argue with the prosecution rather than stick to his testimony-
I’ve never seen that to be acceptable in any courtroom,
be it military or otherwise.
More importantly,
I’ve always wondered about Worf destroying that vessel in
“The Chase” (TNG).
It was just like “oops” and then dismissed as...
“irrelevant “.
I do believe that would have been more germane to the successful prosecution of this case than all of the blah-blah insinuations,inappropriate accusations and attempted character assassinations of the witnesses by the prosecution and the failure of the court to halt the
general grandstanding
and slandering running rampant...
I believe that this “case” was more of an episode used to explore Worf’s past&character and give him center stage
(which happens in dramatic television of any kind)
than it was a study in objective legal theory&practice in a future intergalactic scenario.
If they were simply going to prosecute him,
this was a circus with all manner of grounds for mistrial due to prejudice,bias and flawed procedure.
Seriously.
As for entertainment,
it was far more “realistic” than most courtroom tv shows...
and,unfortunately,
most of the activities of much of the judicial branch of the current U.S. gov.
Sadly,
art is no longer imitating reality as much as reality is mocking art.
I think that's the fastest I've seen you bust out the commercial break headers.
I dont know..maybe.. i try to do them at natural ebbs and flows
Personal opinion. If one must conduct war, intelligence is the key, to both PR disaster prevention, as well as efficiency of expended munitions/assets. I also understand how ideal this concept is to true war as well. :)
@lore, I had a thought that I adequately don't have a happy answer for, and I think I have redefined the physics of how I look at Star Trek (and other "Artificial Gravity") situations. So a Disruptor hits your ship without shields, and your plasma add-on melts the hull and/or armor plating. In a vacuum this would be dispersed and actually aid in saving the vessel, I'm sure the vacating air does assist as the vacuum of space loves this kinda stuff, especially plasma, please expand all you want, we'll even make more. But no, yer on a functional star ship with gravity wells... This now molten liquid metal is now forcing itself into your ship, melting other metals as it goes, in search of center mass on this poor doomed gravity well generator.....usually directly under important parts of teh ship. Could it be, these gravity wells "are" the Achilles heel of every ship that deploys them?
side note, I think I have also figured out a new form of shielding....
there were no civilians, the episode makes it clear the ship was empty. like the laytin videos i must ask if lore had recently watched the episodes. i know he has but with laytin he forgot the man was a changling infiltrator not a traitor, and here he forgets the ship was empty and the names and crew were taken from a different ship that was destroyed at a different date. that part is what got worf off the hook.
My question is; where did we learn that pointed analysis is a sign of hating the thing and wanting to destroy it? What brought about that perception of a culture of critique so visceral in most people?
Honestly, while I whole heartedly believe we are fools if we have no army, I think a leader should challenge a leader putting his own life on the line if he is just angry or wants the territory
We used to do exactly that not for centuries though.
You linked this video in the playlist twice.
Love that intro theme and sequence.
One additional factor for the Klingons attempting this deception is the fact that Galron personally hates Worf at this point in the series and would see this as a way of discrediting Worf, his house and any allies of his house back on Kronos thus suppressing any still existing opposition to Galron's place as Chancellor.
Did the Dominion actually win the war? They pretty much got what they wanted and or are on track to get everything they wanted.
No, they didn't.
They've come to the realization that the Alpha Quadrant is more dangerous than they'd initially suspected it to be.
They reasoned the Federation would be a pushover, the Klingons would be weak, and the Romulans would be isolationist until it was too late. They were nearly proven correct, but ultimately the exact opposite happened.
-The Federation showed that it would be willing to break its own morals in order to ensure the safety of the people of its quadrant. Not only do they have the capability of concocting a virus that would wipe out the Founders, but they have Section 31 to get the job done...and who's to say that's the only virus they've got?
-The Klingons proved able and willing to fight to the last man against the Jem'Hadar, the fiercest and strongest warriors the Dominion had to offer. Even with their tech outdated, they inflicted serious casualties among the Dominion forces, for a time being the only power that could fight against the Cardassians, Dominion, and Breen simultaneously, and STILL held them back.
-The Romulans were not willing to sit back as one of their own was murdered by these invaders (allegedly), and instantly retaliated, proving that the Romulans are serpents through and through: willing to let be if you do the same, but step on them at your own peril. In the first 24 hours after the Romulans joined the war, they struck 15 bases along the Cardassian border, ripping another front open in the war.
After this, the Alpha Quadrant would not forget the Dominion. Their one and only chance to subdue the powers had been lost forever.
@@sergeantassassin3425 And yet they stopped them from being a threat to the Dominion. They are on a path to bringing order to the galaxy, which was an objective, and they got the Federation to hand over a cure for the disease killing the Founders off.
@@lancer737 Uh, no, they didn't. If anything, they're more of a threat now then they ever were. Before the war, they didn't know anything about the phased-polaron weaponry of the Dominion. They didn't know about the energy-dampening technology of the Breen. They had no reason to concoct a genocidal virus capable of killing the seemingly unkillable Founders.
Through conflict, the Federation grew even stronger, and went from pacifistic idealism to pragmatistic idealism: sue for peace, but be ready for war. The Federation now has starships capable of wiping out scores of Dominion bug fighters and going toe-to-toe with even the strongest Dominion battleships.
They achieved the exact opposite of what they'd hoped to accomplish.
@@sergeantassassin3425 And again, as pointed out, the conflicts have stopped, the Alpha Quadrant is more unified than ever, they can better persuaded to having a unified galaxy down the road, which is part of the Founders plans, and they just handed over a core for the disease killing the Founders. They easily could have just let the Founders die and take the rest of the fleet down in the Alpha Quadrant.
@@lancer737 You and I seem to be under a differing impression of what the Founders wanted. The Founders want a unified galaxy, sure...but under THEIR rule, no one else's. Not exactly gonna happen now, given everything that's taken place. Plus, like I said...who says that's the ONLY virus Section 31 has up their sleeve? Or that it's the only effective weapon they've got against the Dominion?
Make no mistake: the Federation LET the Founders live. They're absolutely a threat if the Founders decide to go poking their noses where they don't belong again.
What’s the song at the beginning? Also great video and interesting topic I will say
You do bring up realistic flaws of the federation and Starfleet etc etc.
Is this actually a trial? Or a hearing to release Worf over to the Klingons to let him then stand trial under their jurisdiction? If it's the latter, it may explain why there's so much inconsistency and diversion from the normal rules of guilty vs. innocent trials... I may have to rewatch this, it's been a while.
I like the intro music. Do you want to reveal where you got it from? (I also like and subscribe to your channel.) :)
the federation really should just hire merc if they haven't got the ball to win a war
12:53 cough cough Lusitania cough cough
Dude! What is with the credits?! I told you I had a hiccup and had if fixed that month. Also I have never received any of the perks for this tier. ie models etc. Just curious...
Hey brother.. So ive done a few posts to let me know if you dont get any.. Eaglemoss should be sending them..ill get that fixed..also you wanted sdf macross right? Ive done a few updates that im watching the entire series for a few breakdowns. I apologize if ive missed stuff. The credits are being revamped for last month to get the right names.. shoot me an email on patreon so i can get it adjusted?
Letting the bad guy win will *always* , in the long run, cost more lives. Full stop.
War is awful and we as a species should not do it! Damn good line!
assisting in suicide is not necessarily murder.
Hey what is you editing software of choice
I swear by the Adobe Suite
I am very happy with the review of this episode I love criminal justice and law I have bachelor degree in criminal justice and a cop
Broooo these adverts are killing meee
A fully funded Patreon fixes that, check it out and fund it to the top - ne'er see them again
A Starfleet vessel destroying a Klingon ship could start a war?
Didn’t both the Defiant and DS9 destroy several dozen Klingon ships in Way of the Warrior? And the Defiant did so while defending Cardassian ships.
And nearly brought them to war if not for gowron seeing sense.. they were going to destroy ds9 and fight an entire starfleet task force..they were at war
I really like tacos. I wonder if warf likes tacos
I thought this episode was a moral cop-out. Worf was faced with the dire consequences of his actions. He faced guilt and moral condemnation. But in the end they just pull a trick and turns out Worf did nothing wrong!
Only one of the Klingon warships was described as "old". During O'Brien's testimony he said they were up against "Two Klingon ships; a Bird of Prey and an older Battlecruiser. One would attack us while the other went after the convoy". That may be beside the point but it is true.
Anyway, I find most of your analysis of this interesting, despite being put off by the misleading clickbait titles and the repeated mentioning of something Sisko wouldn't do until a year later - an incident which you may have covered in another video that I haven't seen yet so can't comment on its accuracy. A link would be appreciated if you have.
Pretty sure he inferred both were..and bird of prey is no match for the defiant either way..they get toasted every encounter they have
I follow through on my titles, so i hate that you dont like them but i dont find them negative and him doing an action after this only makes it worsw
@@LoreReloaded The title for part 1 "The time Worf killed civilians" was inaccurate though, which rankled a bit when I watched it. A fairer title would have been "The time Worf thought he'd killed civilians" or something like that.
As for Sisko poisoning that Maquis planet, I don't think anyone ever argued that he was in the right. Although the episode ended in his personal victory (Eddington's capture) and the Maquis colonists from that planet swapping places with the Cardassian colonists from the two planets Eddington had poisoned, seemingly resolving matters in the short term, I think it's safe to say the so-called solution was not very Starfleet.
It was relevant to the court cade which hr was accused
Are we saying that this episode from season four should be considered as part of the dominion war although the actual opening of hostilities between the federation and the dominion didn’t take place until the end of season 5?
Yes..as this episode and the multiple before it..all led up and contributed
Lore Reloaded okay so basically Dominion War is more like a 4-5 year war than the 2 year span it only got. More epic this way I suppose. Lol
@@danielramirez1529 Well.. No.. But like any war there is a build up.. World War 2 didn't just start with one action.. The twin towers weren't just a couple of guys deciding to do harm one day.. everything has a back story that leads up to it.. Things don't just randomly happen generally
I love the logic that Worf gets tried for this and Sisko commits genocide for next to nothing.
Is Starfleet trying to prevent conflict with the Klingons vs. dealing with the Maquis, a group known to make the UFP and Starfleet look like a bunch of fools? External vs. internal threats, and which leaves you with more gagh on your face?
It's perfectly logical the Klingons matter the Maqui don't. You can bet your ass that the US would take complaints from say the PRC. Far far more seriously then from the Congo. You have to cooperate with real powers because they can hurt you. Fair no but life isn't fair and it never will be. The strong do what they please the weak endure what they must. Welcome to reality.
Imagine if the US took civilian deaths as seriously as the Federation. Oh well.
ULOIRAR The problem is no one in the US government would actually challenge it
@@christiannewaye7306 And we, the American people, don't like to think about it, either.
it was an extradition hearing not a criminal trial!!
I am watching this episode tonight and 4 min 11 sec in I realized this was Klingons, you know, the species we have been getting told for the last 60 years does not care about life, complaining about Klingon civilians being killed. Klingons. Who just died in glorious battle.
I respectfully disagree with your opinion on Sisko.
cheif o'brian is enlisted, and thus not a command officer. enlisted accept the orders and carry them out unless their is something objectively wrong with them. they do not raise questions of their orders to officers based on opinions.
Worf farts probably smell so bad.
It looks like Starfleet only really tolerated a Species religion or culture when it suited them. Worf and Belanna only were allowed to show their culture openly in select instances without being judged by their superior officers. Even Data and Jazia faced levels of cultural discrimination openly by the others.
I agree but Belanna is a weird case. Because for alot of the series she actively shows contempt for her own culture. Up to the point of openly hating it so is it really her culture at that point?
Sisko isn't a lawyer
Your video provides great and in-depth analysis. However, I always greatly disliked this episode since the premise is so ridiculous. As you point out, Worf is completely justified in firing on any decloaking ship in this skirmish which the Klingons started. First of all, it makes no sense that a civilian ship would decloak in the middle of a battle. Second, even if it did, Worf would be justified in assuming it was a hostile ship and firing immediately. Third, given the hostility at that time between the Federation and the Klingons, it is unlikely that Starfleet would be willing to try one of its own officers at such a time at the request of a hostile Empire (unless the Federation decided on its own to try Worf which would still make no sense since he was justified in firing). I wish the writers had come up with a more plausible premise to base the episode on. If they had, then it might have been a good one. As it stands, the episode is ridiculous and makes no sense in my humble opinion.
Klingon civilians? Is that even a thing?
Yeah you're in the middle of a battle and an enemy shit just straight out deep cloaks why the hell would you hesitate to fire the civilian ship could have been coming to join the fight against the defiant I see no problem with fire on a deep cloaking ship that you're in the middle of combat with you got to ask why the hell did the car go ship even deep cloak oh it had problems with his navigation and all of a sudden just straight out the cloaks bullshit