Hey All, I am playing around with artistically showing the videos. Let me know your thoughts. This video has caused alot of fighting with CBS - so there may be an updated one done as well.. Let me know your thoughts on my new artistic style..
Lore Reloaded Could you do a video on the following subjects? Just requests, but I really would like your take on them. How you would have handled the Caretaker Incident? What would be your ideal Federation starship be (your design)? What are your thoughts on Transphasic technology (Torpedoes, warp, phasers, etc.)? Finally, which method of FTL travel should Starfleet pursue (Warp 10 like Paris, Transwarp conduits like the Borg, Transwarp Drive like the Voth, or Quantum Slipstream Drive like the Dauntless or like the Benamite Crystals)?
At first I thought "where did you get that worn-out videotape? Usually the still/video quality is very good" After your comment, it's obviously being used as video effect for nostalgia's sake. I suggest it be used less often. The line between nostalgia and annoying should be carefully navigated.
No, Martial Law is when you walk into a restaurant asking for *Cajun Jumbo* and be given a 5oz. *Federation* ration that’s about 150 years old ordered to eat it. 😒
The changling revealing himself is again completely logical, it's a guerilla war tactic, and plays along the long game approach. The o'brian was confirming 2 things to sisko, one that the dominion is everywhere and theres not a damn thing they can do to stop them. And two and more importantly, the dominion truely does not care about how this gambit plays out, it's a test to determine once again when pushed to the edge, would the federation and starfleet be willing to surrender everything they hold dear for the greater good of security and self preservation. If they don't and rebel and hold fast to their values then the dominion would realize they would have to escalate to far FAR more aggressive tactics. But... if they did abandon their values, then it shows that in the end the dominion will very likely be able to at some point simply play a more prolonged but less costly war effort to break the civilian population until they finally cave, revolt against star fleet and the federation council and demand a peace accord be struck with the dominion.... and this scenario very nearly comes to fruition several times after this. That moment with obrien marked the beginning of the end of the federation concept of security and invulnerability in the citizens of the federation, much as after 9/11 the fabric of complacency in america unraveled and has never recovered. The dominion is the silent war, just a push here and nudge there and a bit of suspicion among friends and then one act of unimaginable violence and the dominion now only needs bide there time. Really when bashire suggested surrender, the population was not at all far behind in agreeing with him. Had sisko not commited horrendous acts and brought in the romulans..... the dominions plans would have gone exactly as they wanted them to occur and they would have won. this is really a very well planned and expertly executed game of pure disception and misdirection... its why the dominion is technologically weaker in many ways and yet conqured a quadrant.... why build faster ships and why use constant brute force when you've convinced everyone that everyone else has a loyal eye and ear and is also your enemy.
I never liked the internal security of the ships in startrek. I can understand civilian areas like DS9's promenade only having some force fields but any higher security areas, like the bridge and engineering, should have always had some sort of phaser turret, even if only set to stun.
Anything that is automated, or even connected to a network, can be hacked and used against you. No matter how secure you think it is. Its true in our world and is sure as hell true in the world of Star Trek
@@Lavadog11 that is true, but it's also Tru without the turrets. Once you have control the ship's computer the crew is at your mercy any way. And remember that in startrek even the crew can be controlled, and all it would really take is one security officer with a phaser set to wide beam to take the bridge.
I think they tried that in TAS, and it was hacked exactly like commenters below mentioned. Supposedly, the ship's computer was supposed to be able to track every hand phaser aboard the ship, and do things like lock them to stun, etc. (The TNG Tech Manual referenced this, I believe.) Of course, if your computer passcode is 000 Destruct 0, you're going to be able to get control of the computer, and then you control the ship.
"We're facing an enemy with a spy network far more effective than anything we've ever seen. How should we prepare?" "Let's move THE ENTIRE FLEET for a training exercise." "Great idea!"
Which is ironic as *Betazoids could detect Changlings* by the fact that they couldn't read them, (Luxana Troi was fascinated by Odo). Unless the Changeling was disguised as a Ferengi (although empathets could still detect a Ferengi was there?) and Starfleet trust exactly one of those. Having Betazoids as the secret police would make tactical sense, as long as they were cleared for all the _other stuff_ they were overhearing. In fact it's a major question, why weren't Betazoids used by Starfleet intelligence. There's beta (or gamma) canon that the treaty of Algernon also banned using telepaths in intelligence, in which case Admiral Pressman is looking better all the time. I'd like to see a battle of Betazed breakdown BTW, it's an interesting off screen development.
@@casbot71 Interesting idea. It's possible the founders proper had figured out some way to bypass that problem that Odo was unaware of, or its possible that was a weird early seasons subplot the writers blissfully forgot about to write the later seasons.
Ahhh the days of recording startrek on VHS I still have all of my VHS tapes full of recorded episodes of course now I have them all remastered but I just can't part with those old tapes thanks for bringing me back lore Reloaded
Wait star fleet actually learning something? What next the Federation not being so smug and superior that they wont kidnap people from the past to preach down at.
Well I am glad to see that you did cover the O'brain changeling and brought up the fact that Layton's coup could only really have gone one way if it had succeeded, that being a Fed Civil War. One thing that has always annoyed me about this arc though, how did Layton not think that was going to happen, how did he think that Starfleet would just go along with it, even one of his closest officers backs down when he orders them to destroy the Defiant.
Wait a minute... IIRC wasn't the testing only limited to high ranking officers, and his/her family, in key positions at key facilities/ships and not the general populace? Like since Sisko was the acting head of Starfleet Security and that's why they were even trying to test his father.
8:15 'surrounding ships'? We're ALWAYS told that earth has very few starships. How many times has the Enterprise (any letter) been the only ship in range?
Lore as ds9 is an arching story, it does the series a disservice to brrakdown the aspects of theyre decisions without knowing the entitety of their whys. Thx for the vid as always!
It’s amazing that this episode was aired before the PATRIOT ACT was passed, and still was correct about how much of a useless rights infringing measure these types of security legislation are is amazing
I think it was a good depiction of the security measures. The majority of people gave up freedom for safety, and it turned out to not create any safety. Whether purposely done or accidentally, it's an accurate depiction of what happens when people give up freedom for safety.
The entire planet has ONE power grid? Talk about building a house of cards. A few well placed torpedoes and the planet goes dark lol. Trek logic is sometimes hilarious. :)
Someone should have reminded Sisko what another man named Benjamin said. "Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty or security." Benjamin Franklin.
By the by... there is definitely an offscreen tale to be told here about Starfleet's successful, eventual apprehension or expulsion of the 4 changelings? Because I can't image the war would have lasted more than a few weeks, once it began, with 4 changelings still free and at large in the heart of the Federation and Starfleet. "What's that? Withdraw all ships from around the Defiant next time she's fighting and let her go it alone? Well... okay, you *are* the C&C of Starfleet calling me directly from Earth, so... aye, aye, sir." "Are you sure, Mr. president of the Federation Council? Withdraw from the Khitomer Accords ourselves, this time, and insult Chancellor Gowron's mother? Well, it's a strange order, sir- but if you insist..."
I think the changelings' objective on earth, both O'Brian and Leyton, was to weaken the greatest strength of Starfleet and the Federation: their faith. Now I'm not talking about God or a higher being, but the ideals that the Federation is founded on. Last week you mentioned how it seems that the "higher evolution" of humanity is more nurture than nature and you are correct. Overcoming base nature; hatred, fear, and belligerent violence; is one of the most common themes in all Star Trek. Faith in Starfleet and the Federation to always rise above the base and live up to its ideal is the greatest strength they possess and breaking that faith is the key to destroying them. The Federation is as much a Government as it is an idea. You can attack and destroy a government but the ideal it stood for can live on long after conquest. It's that idea that the founders wanted to shake, to sew doubt in the minds of the highest leaders and most stalwart defenders.
Live Love Play hmm it also seems like the changlings were trying to sow distrust and fear. When normal people are always suspected everyone’s looking so closely at their own people they don’t look outside and if you can get enough distrust and fear the changlings don’t need to do anything as the people of earth will have already torn themselves apart and used all their resources trying to fight imaginary enemies.
Live Love Play yes they can but if they hit an important target like earth no one will feel safe. They don’t need to cause chaos everywhere or anywhere but a few major targets. It’s all about the most effectiveness with the lowers effort.
a Quote from a fan sums up the Orbital Defence argument pretty well, in the way of Starfleet's Thinking at least. RadzPrower from Reddit- "It's a resource management thing. They have dumped pretty much all their resources into exploratory vessels as that is their priority. In Star Trek, you saw some shift in their outlook after the Borg and the Dominion, but even then they never settled on a planetary defense system...probably because they still wanted to focus on exploration on the day-to-day, but they still beefed up their ships that would then be able to be recalled for planetary defense or would be able to hold their own should they run into a threat in the void."
I would think that civilians living on Starfleet ships or stations would have to sign a security agreement. This would make these people subject to similar rules and regulations as Starfleet personnel.
Currently if you have a family member serving in the US Marine corps or US Navy, you can be invited on board the vessel the service member is serving on when the ship is returning home. It is made clear to these non military passengers that they must follow military standards for their own safety because they are now in harm's way even though the ship is sailing back to Port. This would also be true in a spaceship, safety and security first.
I always liked the comparison of changeling tactics to chess not just because they can plan multiple moves in advance but because they, like real chess players, have learned through endless experience what moves typically work best. They’ve been infiltrating and undermining for years... it’s entirely possible that they’d know that revealing their infiltration along with a faulty security check would be even more destructive than remaining completely clandestine.
All support portions of most militaries tend to separate civilains from their soldiers. Reason being is; unless they're working on a task at hand, basic survival, other wise seprated. Rarely does anyone win hearts and minds by having an occupation.
As Benjamin Franklin said, those who value safety over freedom deserve neither. And will lose both. There is NEVER a way to be free from risk. You need an entire population dedicated to doing right so there's no ground for the infiltrator to gain that kind of power. But that takes work and personal responsibility.
Adm. Leyton is the Adm. Marcus of his day and universe, seemingly the only man who wanted to do and would do ,come hell and/or high water, his actual job. "We are soldiers first! We defend our nation first and foremost. We are explorers ONLY when time allows it. Stop pretending wearing these uniforms, manning those highly advanced, heavily armed ships, and carrying that phaser on your hip means anything else."
Playing Devil's Advocate for a second: what else could Starfleet do? There are, apparently, only a few known ways to detect a changeling. How else are you supposed to protect your organization, your planets, your people? I'm not advocating for a totalitarian dictatorship, but at the same time, no one gets to enjoy true, unrestricted freedom in any decent, civilized society. There are limitations to every freedom we have IRL, and that is likely true in the Federation as well. "Those who are willing to give up personal freedoms for safety deserve neither freedom nor safety." Those are the immortal words of Benjamin Franklin. I would posit, though, that Franklin was not suggesting we refuse to adapt to any given situation we're presented with, nor that we shouldn't take things on a case-by-case basis. If you have, say, only ONE way to definitively detect an enemy infiltrator, and it requires an invasive procedure that, while not painful or lethal, does violate someone's personal privacy...is it really so much to ask for, to guarantee that you're not going to have Starfleet HQ blown to pieces by a saboteur, or an entire planet's power grid knocked out right before a Dominion fleet attempts an invasion of said planet? I would argue that those who refuse to give up some freedom to ensure safety will have neither when the enemy comes knocking at their door.
Just to bring it up, when Worf is on trial after the Klingon set-up for destroying a civilian transport the Klingon prosecuting tries to enter evidence from Worf's personal files. Sisko objects saying 'No search order' (I assume the equivalent of a search warrant in modern terms) has been issued and if Worf had not consented to it being used it would have been blocked from evidence. This would make it seem there is Federation Law to prevent unlawful searches of peoples personal property and that it applies even in a court martial.
#LoreReloaded, there was an idea I had had about why the Changeling-O’Brien revealed himself to Sisko. I admit it’s definitely out there, but nonetheless, I think it has at least SOME water: the Changelings wanted Leyton out of the picture. They wanted to remove him from power. We know he was a veteran of the Federation-Tzenkethi War, so he is an experienced soldier. The Changelings perhaps could have feared what Starfleet could do if he was in command when the Federation and Dominion went to war. We know that the Dominion plays the long game, targeting the most powerful blocks of the Alpha Quadrant powers: the Obsidian Order, the Tal’Shiar, General Martok, etc. They may have actually secretly helped Leyton advance his coup solely to have Sisko move against him and stop to remove him from power, preventing an experienced and militaristic commander from leading the attack against the Dominion. Again, I recognize this might be a reach, but nonetheless, I don’t think it’s totally without merit
As to Earth being defenseless, well we have seen it's not typical for orbital defenses in the Star Trek universe. There is some logic to that. With ships as powerful as they are, it would be hard to mount a planet wide coverage net. Still it's probably possible. We did see how heavily Chin'toka got fortified. Yet also we didn't see any kind of shield generator that could defend a whole planet. I don't think we ever saw that, not in the hands of starfleet. Only smaller coverage ones for installation protection. So putting batteries in orbit would invite planet wide destruction as a fleet engage those defense batteries with Earth itself as the backdrop for any misses or falling debris. In such a case, it may be conventional wisdom for the Trek universe to not put armed satellites in orbit of densely populated worlds. Skipping such a fight for a ground war where casualties could be more restrained. The lack of power though, it does have real ramifications for their defense. Any ground war in Trek would likely involve shielded hard points of resistance, mass use of transporters to move forces as needed. Heavy use of communications and sensors to coordinate the fight. Shuttle support and perhaps some form of atmospheric fighters as well. Not to mention reliance on their sophisticated medical facilities to tend wounded. Even the local populace relies on power for their food and likely water. Every one of these things is kaput with the juice down. Even the shuttles/fighters if you can't get the hangars open without power to their doors. Your blind and can't react to landing forces, not to any meaningful degree. The handful of ships near Earth and Space Dock will try to help. However their not enough to stop even a medium fleet who can just fly to the side of Earth the Starbase isn't over. Beam down invasion troops then give the defenders the bird while dealing with the ships as needed and station later. After all at this time the war wasn't in full swing. They weren't keeping a full fleet sitting around to protect Earth during this time. Likely with the ideal any hostile fleet would be detected entering Federation space, with Starfleet Command coordinating their assets to respond. Well now Starfleet command can't access most of their coms/deep space intel feed, and are relying on ships passing message through one another making coordination difficult at best.
Just a quick note, if I may, about the constant random blood screenings..........you can only screen a person so many times before they are incapacitated from blood loss! It takes 3 months, give or take, to rebuild a 450ml blood donation. Screen the same person say 10 times a day, say 10ml per, 2-3 days and people will feel the effects. That’s just my opinion your results may vary
The reason changeling O'Brien told Sisko is because the changelings were afraid of a militant starfleet. Sure, they were their to cause chaos, but a militant starfleet is the opposite of that. And it would make them dangerous.
Situation is a bit extreme however. We aren't talking about being forced to carry identifying papers or medical experimentation or similar oppressive actions. Which even we in the states go along with the papers thing, harmless enough starting out but becoming more draconian as time passes. This is more of a threat among you situation like in the Thing films. Something is there, it's replaced someone, and it poses a significant threat to any and all around it. As a temporary emergency measure it's acceptable to force testing to try to find the threat. Temporary only, because that sort of apparatus could be misused later on for things like genetic profiling etc. Also Starfleet is generally trusted, far as we know except by a handful. You yourself have this intense focus on presenting them as a military organization. While there are military aspects, and they do help cover that roll as they are the line of defense for that utopia. That is not the only thing Starfleet does. It has been forced more and more into that role, since Roddenberry passed away and a slow drive towards pew pew for ratings started supplanting the original message and ideal of Star Trek. Their not pacifists of course, but they were very much idealists. They fight when they need to, and the scale was more in line with that then the modern pew fest that's grown popular. In DS9 it wasn't so bad, I rather liked it after getting older then going back to rewatch. But that slide has landed us firmly in the garbage pile of Discovery not to mention the Kelvin timelines tendency for flashy nonsensical battles. Over I might good storytelling and measured, logical combat as needed.
I would submit that if Sisko didn't completely blindside the changelings, they had every reason to bait sisko into acting. Consider: If Layton succeded, that would almost certainly cause a civil war, and possibly many species leaving the federation, which easily could have swung the war decisively in the Dominion's favor. If Layton was stopped, the coup attempt would become very public. Even if this didn't lead to reforms of starfleet curtailing its power, making the war easier for the dominion, it would deal a huge blow to the appearence of starfleet. And it appears, given that the federation was facing a 'manpower shortage(in the pale moonlight)' that they didn't have a draft. So public support equals manpower, and they couldn't lose either. So how did Sisko blindside them? He talked Layton down. No blood spilling on earth, no fleet battles that would have been impossible to cover up, Sisko talks Layton into convincing everyone to stand down, and covers the whole thing up(implied). If it wasn't sisko's unique blend of sometimes rulethless pragmatism and duty to the ideals of starfleet, this could have swung the war decisively in the dominion's favor no matter how it played out. To my mind Sisko saves the entire federation here just as much as he does in sacrifice of angels.
It works pretty good. Is it just me, or does it seem like this was a prediction for Post-9/11America? Also, look at how many colonies Starfleet lost to the Borg. Planetary Protection seems pretty damn low.
i was just going to say that. mars "defense" perimeter. smh. a drunk admiral helming a decommed constitution class with no phasers orbiting the moon would be better "defense" than that.
@@JohnnyMidnyte At least the disarmed Constitution might do some damage ramming into it. Hell, Kirk once killed an ancient robotic super weapon by ramming a crippled Constitution down its throat
@@JohnnyMidnyte Also, I was wrong, I just rechecked the clip, the three patrol ships didn't even last seconds, they all get taken out inside of one second
@@ZedSnardbody Personally, my head canon is that the Mars Defense Perimeter used to be an extensive network of sensor nets and weapons platforms, akin to the GOD Platforms from B5, but this being the Golden Age of the Federation and Star Fleet not having had any kind of real challenge in more than sixty years at this point, the M.D.P just got less and less resources until it was a defense perimeter in the same sense as the police putting up some tape to stop some one entering an area: It won't actually stop anything, but you're just not supposed to cross it, that's against the rules.
The disconnect is that we live in a world where you have to distrust everyone. The people in the Federation apparently live in 1945 America where there's no apparent reason to distrust authority.
The female Changeling said that Odo had brought disunity to the Great Link. I always assumed that the O'Brian Changeling was one of those dissenters. Except this one after spending time on Earth realized why Odo felt loyalty to these Solids and wanted Sisko to stop Lyton. It wouldn't actively disrupt the Founders plan, but wanted to test Sisko and see if his conclusion was correct. Remember Sisko acted as if he already called the Defiant back to Earth. Which means he knows about the sabotage of Wormhole array. The only thing the O'Brian Changeling did was confirm that yes they are there Changelings on Earth causing Havoc. But that as the Changeling said, 'In the end its your fear that will destroy you.' He also said he would be seeing Sisko again, so he may have been the Bashir Changeling too. That or the writers were scared the audience wouldn't get the point of the two parter so creating this one off Changeling to spoon fed the audience the necessary mindset.
Or a motive for the changeling which goes to their central drive: Chaos. Since they view order as the greatest good, why would they not view chaos as the greatest evil to be worked on their enemies? Set Starfleet's titans against each other and watch them fall. Layton was a budding dictator, but he was also a great strategist and organizer. Starfleet no doubt lost a lot of competent, if misguided, officers in the coup crackdown.
3:10 I would put that sort of stuff down to a kind of 'War Powers' Act kind of law giving Starfleet more power temporarily. This sort of thing is more common outside the US due to how well protected the US is in terms of natural borders compared to other countries.
No we have them to that's how Japanese Internment and the like happened. See also Lincoln suspending Habeas Corpus. Anyway the laws certainly exist we just don't use them as much.
@3:30 - I would offer an alternate potential interpretation. Since this is being approved by the Federation President, perhaps this is not actually Federation civilians falling under Starfleet rule... but actually new (if paranoid and questionable) Federation law sanctioned and enacted by the President/council, with Starfleet merely acting as the facilitators of the new policy under civilian Presidential jurisdiction? I mean, I'm not a lawyer or a JAG; I don't know if that legally works. And it certainly doesn't make everything hunky-dory. But, it might at least be a slightly different and *somewhat* less totalitarian situation, at least where Starfleet's role is concerned.
The scope of Federation control over its citizens is not startling in the slightest. The UFP has long been unambiguous in not tolerating dissent from its 'evolved human' ideology. Since TNG onward, it has been an obvious soft-fascist (or, perhaps, soft-communist) regime. Such regimes don't need a lot of nudging to go from soft mode to hard mode.
Shifty O’Brien’s telling Sisko a number is a great tactic, what if there’s only 3 Changlings or way more than 4? It gives Starfleet the “body count number” that led us into the depths of political ploys and unnecessary operations in the Vietnam War. Physical numbers as goals in counter-insurgency campaigns don’t ever have the results the creators of said goal wished for.
When it comes to the Changeling talking to Sisko, what are the benefits and losses? And is the Changeling even telling the truth? (Note that in the clip, the Changeling doesn't technically confirm that it was exactly four, he instead asks Sisko "What if I were to tell you" and works from there.) Will any person acting out of fear or personal gain suddenly change their minds if Sisko says "This totally trustworthy enemy Changling went out of his way to personally inform me that there were only four Changelings on Earth, so we should all stop panicking about the Changeling threat. Because, uhm, we can't do anything about it?" One could also argue that the Changelings see Sisko as particularly important (and dangerous), and wanted to try to drive a sense of futility and hopelessness into him.
That policing without consent, good story to compare to the way police are now, as for your earth defenseless you right look at when the breen attack n as Martock said not even the klingon would have done it
I think the O'Brien changeling tells Sisko how many there are because the changelings are arrogant. As you point out, Starfleet's attempts to detect changelings is worthless, the changelings can just sit back and watch the havoc, I think the conversation with Sisko was just to brag and stir the pot more.
The most likely scenario is that this is the changeling that took Bashir's spot on ds9 or one of them, he comments on grabbing a pint and throwing darts, which indicates he has knowledge from ds9 with the real O'Brian
You want intrusion? In TNG S1/E26 "The Neutral Zone", people stuck in cryo for nearly 400 years have their descendants tracked down by DNA, from literally light-years away......Hope Starfleet's comm security is good......
It definitely has one in the early Kelvin timeline (as Nero needs the frequencies for this shield from Pike to deploy his weapons ) therefore it's extremely likely the prime earth does too
The issue ultimately is you're applying the U.S constitution to a 24th-century civilization that spans thousands of lightyears. I concur that it would be unlikely that the protections of the U.S bill of rights, would not be the basis of a government of this timeframe, looking at the influences the Magna Carter had on our own (American) form of government. Unfortunately, we have very little knowledge of what the federation version of the constitution would look like, Data and the EMH had countless litigations that would have been thrown out entirely in our system once personhood was established. However, I believe this was a great episode and showed how ready people would give up their rights for security when they deserve neither (spin on a ben franklin quote). This is one episode like the drumhead that really needs to be studied in the future, Imho.
The idea that the entire planet’s power grid can be shut down seems stupid. Even though our current grid is woefully out of date you can’t shit down the entire country in one shot.
I might be remembering wrong and I don't remember my source but I thought Space Dock didn't have weapons because they didn't want it to be too militaristic. On top of that I thought one of the reasons Space Dock wasn't given weapons is because they already had orbiting defensive platforms.
Why didn't they just test them using the transporter? Just program in an alert when they transport a Changeling. That should cover about 90% of the people on ships and space stations. Alarm trips and you just throw up a force field around the transporter bay.
Chess?... They should have been playing in some GO along with that endgame strategy and maybe they wouldn't have had to rely on blind dumb luck to win a war again. Everyone else was playing Chess while The Dominion was doing the doing small GO strategy that can be taken with a few well-placed pebbles in a certain section. That is the way I see The Dominion war.
I don’t mind the new style because my tiny brain prefers moving pictures, but I wish it didn’t have to have that grungy bootleg filter over it. I know why you have to, so I won’t complain, but it does clash a bit with the ultra clean Star Trek aesthetic (whereas Alien Theory can do almost the same thing all day long and it actually enhances his video clips). Also being American, I find the aspects of this future “utopia” presented here rather unsettling. Utopias are oppressive and homogenous societies that are incompatible with individual rights; basically soft dystopias.
There something I find disturbing and frightening about these episodes. Like NY plays host to the UN the earth plays host to Federation HQ etc however it is still a member state with all the rights of one it should have its own government and security force but we never see any trace of it even though we should its only Starfleet security we see on the streets. When they request permission for martial law its the federation president they go to not the earths its like the earth gov is completely dominated by star fleet with no say so what ever.
There's an argument to be made that we know of the federation government is considerably less well balanced than the US government. Starfleet seems to handle all military operations, lots of scientific research, a great deal of diplomacy, and all earth doctors(I don't think we actually ever see a civilian practice). And effective declarations of war? Just talk to starfleet command. Whatever the hell the 'federation council' does, it's not authorizing wars with galactic empires. But perhaps more than that, it's extremely unclear how much civilian control exists of starfleet. Perhaps one might argue that humanity thought, united, peaceful, and with such vast resources, they didn't feel the need to impose strict checks and balances that might make the government less efficient. It's also possible, if what Sloan told Bashir about the origins of section 31 are true, that the founders of the federation had a love of dictatorships far beyond what anyone in DS9 really wants to acknowledge. And given the US government, with checks and balances so strong that sometimes our governance grinds to a halt, has a great many times throughout its history suspended civil liberties in wartime, well, sadly, I can't say this is a terribly unrealistic thing to happen.
I agree, checks and balances is a joke our us government grinds to a halt and nothing gets done and havnt since for a very long time, be so much better if it was elimated and people actually voted competently and didn't focus on their 'right' to vote
This WAS during a time of war, where the military will have greater powers afforded to them that they normally wouldn't have had and we can presume that people on Earth will have a greater implicit trust of Starfleet as one of the Federations oldest and most highly respected and prestigious institutions, so people are going to listen and trust that the Starfleet security personnel have their best interests at heart when they give those blood tests. I'm also going to play devil's advocate about Sisko insisting that all families of Starfleet personnel be blood screened, including his own father, because if Sisko lets it slide for his own family, it undermines the entire purpose of the exercise. Also, I'm not seeing Federation citizens of certain ethic backgrounds being herded into internment camps, like the US government did to Japanese-American citizens during WW2, or being black listed from their professions like under McCarthyism. This is Sisko doing what he can to protect the heart of the Federation, in the only way he knows how and as sinister as it may seem to us, far, FAR worse things have and continue to be done in the name of National Security
@Lore Reloaded, one caveat to your belief its insane to have family on military installations that could be attacked: a friend of mine, whose father served in Guantanamo back in the 1980's had lived on the base as a kid. The parallels are equal between Starfleet families and military families in real world, the reality is military service members sometimes have to take their families with them on extnded duty and to parts of the world, which may be hostile or dangerous. I am not arguing it is smart to have civilians on a military base, but it is established as a real world concept
@@LoreReloaded You do know Guantanamo Bay base or Gitmo is still home to spouses, infants, and children of military personnel and also the detention facility of terrorists captured by the US. So, yeah, they could very likely be in danger of getting blown up by a suicide bomber today. :( Like I keep telling you, I don't approve of a lot of stuff that goes on in the world, but I also don't pretend its not true. Still let's focus on the past with Star Trek, we both know that back during the Cold War military kids were living on bases just a few hundred yards apart from ICBM's and were like 1st strike locations for Soviet and Chinese weapons. Even back then these places were dangerous. Funny story my friend told me, she had a babysitter on the base who she didn't like. So one time, she snuck out and hid away at friend's place. What happened next, they had a lock down of the entire base to search, they even began calling up diplomatic corps to see if they could get permission to get into Cuba, right before she was discovered. She tells the story now as a joke about nearly causing an international incident, but reality is military base life is dangerous from either external threats or human stupidity. @Lore Reloaded Military brats have the best stories, they've seen the world and understand first hand what the lines on borders actually mean. Even domestic US bases have their fair share of exotic stories and dangers.
@@LoreReloaded Ships is kinda dumb, bases not so much that is pretty common today though of course we are not talking about border outposts and such here it's generally permanent bases well inside what is ostensibly considered friendly territory. Course they are probably not really in much more danger there than in a civilian city after all as soon as the enemy gains the ability to project force inside your borders anyone living near any target that has any kind of strategic value is at risk and this of course includes a large fraction of the civilian population of any city on Earth as cities are filled with strategically useful support infrastructure (Transportation, Factories etc) that can and usually does end up contributing to the ability to continue to wage war.
one thing about space dock adding in the defense of earth, not sure if alpha or beta cannon, but wasn't space dock purposefully built without weapons? I'm sure it has impressive shields and a whole deck dedicated to tech-tech, but no guns. Also if they were able to shut down space dock, does anyone know how long it would take for those ships trapped inside to cut their way out? also, I have a hard time believing that the planet could be so crippled after a power outage after the whole whale probe incident.
@@LoreReloaded They kept on having families on Starships, because Starfleet has the collective memory of a goldfish and seem to believe their impenetrable aura of smug self righteousness will protect them from a hostile universe because "We're explorers, not soldiers" and surely the gargantuan space beasts, hazardous spacial anomalies and violently xenophobic alien warrior races will respect that.
@@LoreReloaded Yup but that's the kumbayah attitude of the Federation though bthey do start designing a modern combat starship... And I think Section-31 (My heroes) may have started changing things subtly from within the Federation.
I always thought the blood screenings were a complete waste of time because changeling can just be a random object on the street. What are you going to do, blood screen every object on the planet? And then keep those objects under surveillance to make sure the changeling doesn't turn into an object thats already been tested?
We have civilian families on our military bases, both domestic and especially in (safe) foreign countries. Be the equivalent of having families on a starbase. The real issue is having them on ships assigned to Military Operations Command (border patrols) and Galaxy Operations Command (completely unknown areas, with completely unknown dangers).
Now that you mention it, why were these same measures in place during the Borg scare at all? There is no evidence the Borg did anything covert, ever, and they flew around in that giant cube announcing their intentions to everyone within communications range. In the case of the Borg successfully reaching Earth and taking out orbital defenses, the planet is effectively lost no matter how many ground troops you have. Keeping the Earth population under martial law doesn't make at any more defensible against a cybernetic ground force with the ability to adapt immunity to guns and rapidly assimilate more fighters from the other side.
Why the changelling "O'Brien" did that is an easy answer. With Leyton, without someone to stop him, the Federation will be more militaristic, more active and less static. Not a better Federation perhaps, but a better one to fight a war. That is not what the Dominion want. A more active and agressive Federation? The only way it could work is if this more agressive Federation make moves against the Klingons and start a war, but surely, Leyton's Federation would have helped the klingon "secure" the quadrant instead of opossing them. They dont want an active Federation. They want a distracted one. A inner conflict. A scandal, or better, a civil war. Something that breaks the confidence of the Federation, and their independent government. So, they dont need a Leyton making a Federation more prepared. They need a Leyton doing that, and someone trying to stop him, beginning a conflict. In an altertative reality, we could have seen a Sisko leading a faction of starfleet (maybe deep spaces bases, some planets, and spaceships far from the center of the Federation) against a Leyton controling the capital, the inner bases and fleets, allied with Growron.
Hey All, I am playing around with artistically showing the videos. Let me know your thoughts. This video has caused alot of fighting with CBS - so there may be an updated one done as well.. Let me know your thoughts on my new artistic style..
Lore Reloaded
Could you do a video on the following subjects? Just requests, but I really would like your take on them.
How you would have handled the Caretaker Incident?
What would be your ideal Federation starship be (your design)?
What are your thoughts on Transphasic technology (Torpedoes, warp, phasers, etc.)?
Finally, which method of FTL travel should Starfleet pursue (Warp 10 like Paris, Transwarp conduits like the Borg, Transwarp Drive like the Voth, or Quantum Slipstream Drive like the Dauntless or like the Benamite Crystals)?
Are you being de sponsored by youtube. For your support of the righteous way
At first I thought "where did you get that worn-out videotape? Usually the still/video quality is very good" After your comment, it's obviously being used as video effect for nostalgia's sake.
I suggest it be used less often. The line between nostalgia and annoying should be carefully navigated.
BTW, though the tech for a mobile holoemitter was not there yet, a fixed one-"person" emitter was common by that point. See Voyager.
Less scantily clad women please, I know it was a gag for one video but it just seemed out of place and creepy
I love the grainy, old VHS feel to the video clips. Makes me feel nostalgic for the 90's when I would record Star Trek episodes as a kid
Oh good I was worried my phone was messed up 😂
Same here, it's hard to remember that most of this stuff was going on in the 90's early to mid.
Martial Law? What Martial Law?
All I see is soldiers walking the streets.
Dialogue states martial law as well
No, Martial Law is when you walk into a restaurant asking for *Cajun Jumbo* and be given a 5oz. *Federation* ration that’s about 150 years old ordered to eat it. 😒
The changling revealing himself is again completely logical, it's a guerilla war tactic, and plays along the long game approach. The o'brian was confirming 2 things to sisko, one that the dominion is everywhere and theres not a damn thing they can do to stop them. And two and more importantly, the dominion truely does not care about how this gambit plays out, it's a test to determine once again when pushed to the edge, would the federation and starfleet be willing to surrender everything they hold dear for the greater good of security and self preservation. If they don't and rebel and hold fast to their values then the dominion would realize they would have to escalate to far FAR more aggressive tactics. But... if they did abandon their values, then it shows that in the end the dominion will very likely be able to at some point simply play a more prolonged but less costly war effort to break the civilian population until they finally cave, revolt against star fleet and the federation council and demand a peace accord be struck with the dominion.... and this scenario very nearly comes to fruition several times after this. That moment with obrien marked the beginning of the end of the federation concept of security and invulnerability in the citizens of the federation, much as after 9/11 the fabric of complacency in america unraveled and has never recovered. The dominion is the silent war, just a push here and nudge there and a bit of suspicion among friends and then one act of unimaginable violence and the dominion now only needs bide there time. Really when bashire suggested surrender, the population was not at all far behind in agreeing with him. Had sisko not commited horrendous acts and brought in the romulans..... the dominions plans would have gone exactly as they wanted them to occur and they would have won. this is really a very well planned and expertly executed game of pure disception and misdirection... its why the dominion is technologically weaker in many ways and yet conqured a quadrant.... why build faster ships and why use constant brute force when you've convinced everyone that everyone else has a loyal eye and ear and is also your enemy.
👏👏👏👏 Well done!
Could have broken it up into paragraphs to make it easier to read. Other than that well put.
@@MrPingn Ironically it was but for some damn reason it showed up like this when I posted it. lol
“Oh no! Earth is down!”
“Don’t worry, we still have the Mars Defense System.”
“... We’re doomed!!!”
They may be only three fighters... but they are scrappy
Lore Reloaded
Those were fighters?! I thought they were drones, shuttles, or some kind of missiles. Now I’m really scared.
Manned fighters..yea
We also have the NX-01 in shrink-wrap at a museum somewhere, in case we get really desperate.
@@Corbomite_Meatballs I suppose it could be ready with a "minor" refit.
I never liked the internal security of the ships in startrek. I can understand civilian areas like DS9's promenade only having some force fields but any higher security areas, like the bridge and engineering, should have always had some sort of phaser turret, even if only set to stun.
Anything that is automated, or even connected to a network, can be hacked and used against you. No matter how secure you think it is. Its true in our world and is sure as hell true in the world of Star Trek
@@Lavadog11 that is true, but it's also Tru without the turrets. Once you have control the ship's computer the crew is at your mercy any way. And remember that in startrek even the crew can be controlled, and all it would really take is one security officer with a phaser set to wide beam to take the bridge.
I think they tried that in TAS, and it was hacked exactly like commenters below mentioned.
Supposedly, the ship's computer was supposed to be able to track every hand phaser aboard the ship, and do things like lock them to stun, etc. (The TNG Tech Manual referenced this, I believe.)
Of course, if your computer passcode is 000 Destruct 0, you're going to be able to get control of the computer, and then you control the ship.
"... or Starfleet sucks at defending planets!" Certainly the case with Betazed.
"We're facing an enemy with a spy network far more effective than anything we've ever seen. How should we prepare?" "Let's move THE ENTIRE FLEET for a training exercise." "Great idea!"
@@joshschilmeister1934 IIRC, from the in-universe canon, they had a navigational problem and were too far away
@@toddkes5890 Yes, they were caught off guard in a training exercise, which I what I was making fun of them for.
Which is ironic as *Betazoids could detect Changlings* by the fact that they couldn't read them, (Luxana Troi was fascinated by Odo).
Unless the Changeling was disguised as a Ferengi (although empathets could still detect a Ferengi was there?) and Starfleet trust exactly one of those.
Having Betazoids as the secret police would make tactical sense, as long as they were cleared for all the _other stuff_ they were overhearing.
In fact it's a major question, why weren't Betazoids used by Starfleet intelligence. There's beta (or gamma) canon that the treaty of Algernon also banned using telepaths in intelligence, in which case Admiral Pressman is looking better all the time.
I'd like to see a battle of Betazed breakdown BTW, it's an interesting off screen development.
@@casbot71 Interesting idea. It's possible the founders proper had figured out some way to bypass that problem that Odo was unaware of, or its possible that was a weird early seasons subplot the writers blissfully forgot about to write the later seasons.
I think the changeling was trying to get the Federation to back down, "look what we can do with just four of us, maybe rethink your whole war"
Now don't forget obedience brings victory...and victory is life!
Must be time to snort some ketresel white.
Ahhh the days of recording startrek on VHS I still have all of my VHS tapes full of recorded episodes of course now I have them all remastered but I just can't part with those old tapes thanks for bringing me back lore Reloaded
What's wrong with a little martial law every once in a while?
/s
There are only 4 changelings and only 4 lights? Coincidence... you decide.
I believe the fact that there are only four changelings,is to show how effective they are
Damir Babic Obsidian Order confirmed!!!
You are mistaken. There are _five_ changelings, and _five_ lights.
Seems Earth learned nothing from it's experience with the global effects of the Whale Song Probe 90 years earlier.
Wait star fleet actually learning something? What next the Federation not being so smug and superior that they wont kidnap people from the past to preach down at.
Well I am glad to see that you did cover the O'brain changeling and brought up the fact that Layton's coup could only really have gone one way if it had succeeded, that being a Fed Civil War. One thing that has always annoyed me about this arc though, how did Layton not think that was going to happen, how did he think that Starfleet would just go along with it, even one of his closest officers backs down when he orders them to destroy the Defiant.
The truth is either was still very likely. If Sisko hadn't learned of the plot would he have gone against him?
@@MrPingn Picard wouldn't have and neither would many captains. Even if Sisko did there would 100% be a civil war.
the quality filter you used reminds me of watching trek on tv with an antenna. feels old man
Same!
This is a pretty good episode to watch it
Wait a minute... IIRC wasn't the testing only limited to high ranking officers, and his/her family, in key positions at key facilities/ships and not the general populace? Like since Sisko was the acting head of Starfleet Security and that's why they were even trying to test his father.
8:15 'surrounding ships'? We're ALWAYS told that earth has very few starships. How many times has the Enterprise (any letter) been the only ship in range?
Andrew Thorne so much that it’s ridiculous it’s been used as a plot point more than once.
too many times
Lore as ds9 is an arching story, it does the series a disservice to brrakdown the aspects of theyre decisions without knowing the entitety of their whys. Thx for the vid as always!
... Expand on that...
It’s amazing that this episode was aired before the PATRIOT ACT was passed, and still was correct about how much of a useless rights infringing measure these types of security legislation are is amazing
I think it was a good depiction of the security measures. The majority of people gave up freedom for safety, and it turned out to not create any safety. Whether purposely done or accidentally, it's an accurate depiction of what happens when people give up freedom for safety.
RUclips is purging RUclips of all RUclipsrs
frictionRx5 nope, just those that aren’t make up tutorials.
The entire planet has ONE power grid? Talk about building a house of cards. A few well placed torpedoes and the planet goes dark lol. Trek logic is sometimes hilarious. :)
Someone should have reminded Sisko what another man named Benjamin said. "Those who would sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty or security." Benjamin Franklin.
It's no coincidence the most diverse and inclusive authoritative system in Star Trek is located in San Fransisco.
Orbital defenses are the last thing I would want. Imagine if someone reprogrammed them to fire down on the planet.
Psiros *cough... President Clark... cough... scorched earth...
Orbital defenses can be designed in such a way to make that practically impossible. Are you aware of the Halo universe's ODP network?
Holy Terra must defended! Heresy to think otherwise.
Bravo. I really enjoy your analysis. The Federation is hardly the utopia that Gene had envisioned.
His cousin, General William Hague, had better sense.
To die as a hero instead of live long enough to become the villain?
By the by... there is definitely an offscreen tale to be told here about Starfleet's successful, eventual apprehension or expulsion of the 4 changelings? Because I can't image the war would have lasted more than a few weeks, once it began, with 4 changelings still free and at large in the heart of the Federation and Starfleet.
"What's that? Withdraw all ships from around the Defiant next time she's fighting and let her go it alone? Well... okay, you *are* the C&C of Starfleet calling me directly from Earth, so... aye, aye, sir."
"Are you sure, Mr. president of the Federation Council? Withdraw from the Khitomer Accords ourselves, this time, and insult Chancellor Gowron's mother? Well, it's a strange order, sir- but if you insist..."
I think the changelings' objective on earth, both O'Brian and Leyton, was to weaken the greatest strength of Starfleet and the Federation: their faith.
Now I'm not talking about God or a higher being, but the ideals that the Federation is founded on.
Last week you mentioned how it seems that the "higher evolution" of humanity is more nurture than nature and you are correct. Overcoming base nature; hatred, fear, and belligerent violence; is one of the most common themes in all Star Trek.
Faith in Starfleet and the Federation to always rise above the base and live up to its ideal is the greatest strength they possess and breaking that faith is the key to destroying them.
The Federation is as much a Government as it is an idea. You can attack and destroy a government but the ideal it stood for can live on long after conquest.
It's that idea that the founders wanted to shake, to sew doubt in the minds of the highest leaders and most stalwart defenders.
Live Love Play hmm it also seems like the changlings were trying to sow distrust and fear. When normal people are always suspected everyone’s looking so closely at their own people they don’t look outside and if you can get enough distrust and fear the changlings don’t need to do anything as the people of earth will have already torn themselves apart and used all their resources trying to fight imaginary enemies.
@@sideshowkazstuff3867 If they can create fear and distrust on Earth they can cause chaos everywhere.
Live Love Play yes they can but if they hit an important target like earth no one will feel safe. They don’t need to cause chaos everywhere or anywhere but a few major targets. It’s all about the most effectiveness with the lowers effort.
a Quote from a fan sums up the Orbital Defence argument pretty well, in the way of Starfleet's Thinking at least.
RadzPrower from Reddit-
"It's a resource management thing. They have dumped pretty much all their resources into exploratory vessels as that is their priority.
In Star Trek, you saw some shift in their outlook after the Borg and the Dominion, but even then they never settled on a planetary defense system...probably because they still wanted to focus on exploration on the day-to-day, but they still beefed up their ships that would then be able to be recalled for planetary defense or would be able to hold their own should they run into a threat in the void."
I would think that civilians living on Starfleet ships or stations would have to sign a security agreement. This would make these people subject to similar rules and regulations as Starfleet personnel.
No. The Starfleet is different from the Federation
Currently if you have a family member serving in the US Marine corps or US Navy, you can be invited on board the vessel the service member is serving on when the ship is returning home. It is made clear to these non military passengers that they must follow military standards for their own safety because they are now in harm's way even though the ship is sailing back to Port. This would also be true in a spaceship, safety and security first.
@@impactguns2 I agree. Perhaps there is a sourcebook somewhere on the Star Fleet navy rules and whatnot regarding civillian personnel.
I always liked the comparison of changeling tactics to chess not just because they can plan multiple moves in advance but because they, like real chess players, have learned through endless experience what moves typically work best.
They’ve been infiltrating and undermining for years... it’s entirely possible that they’d know that revealing their infiltration along with a faulty security check would be even more destructive than remaining completely clandestine.
Colm Meaney did so awesomely as the Changeling O'Brien
All support portions of most militaries tend to separate civilains from their soldiers. Reason being is; unless they're working on a task at hand, basic survival, other wise seprated. Rarely does anyone win hearts and minds by having an occupation.
As Benjamin Franklin said, those who value safety over freedom deserve neither. And will lose both. There is NEVER a way to be free from risk. You need an entire population dedicated to doing right so there's no ground for the infiltrator to gain that kind of power. But that takes work and personal responsibility.
Adm. Leyton is the Adm. Marcus of his day and universe, seemingly the only man who wanted to do and would do ,come hell and/or high water, his actual job.
"We are soldiers first! We defend our nation first and foremost. We are explorers ONLY when time allows it. Stop pretending wearing these uniforms, manning those highly advanced, heavily armed ships, and carrying that phaser on your hip means anything else."
Playing Devil's Advocate for a second: what else could Starfleet do?
There are, apparently, only a few known ways to detect a changeling. How else are you supposed to protect your organization, your planets, your people? I'm not advocating for a totalitarian dictatorship, but at the same time, no one gets to enjoy true, unrestricted freedom in any decent, civilized society. There are limitations to every freedom we have IRL, and that is likely true in the Federation as well.
"Those who are willing to give up personal freedoms for safety deserve neither freedom nor safety." Those are the immortal words of Benjamin Franklin. I would posit, though, that Franklin was not suggesting we refuse to adapt to any given situation we're presented with, nor that we shouldn't take things on a case-by-case basis.
If you have, say, only ONE way to definitively detect an enemy infiltrator, and it requires an invasive procedure that, while not painful or lethal, does violate someone's personal privacy...is it really so much to ask for, to guarantee that you're not going to have Starfleet HQ blown to pieces by a saboteur, or an entire planet's power grid knocked out right before a Dominion fleet attempts an invasion of said planet?
I would argue that those who refuse to give up some freedom to ensure safety will have neither when the enemy comes knocking at their door.
I love the nostalgia of using clips that were recorded on a VCR.
Families on ships solves the orphan problem.
....mother of god..
Just to bring it up, when Worf is on trial after the Klingon set-up for destroying a civilian transport the Klingon prosecuting tries to enter evidence from Worf's personal files. Sisko objects saying 'No search order' (I assume the equivalent of a search warrant in modern terms) has been issued and if Worf had not consented to it being used it would have been blocked from evidence. This would make it seem there is Federation Law to prevent unlawful searches of peoples personal property and that it applies even in a court martial.
#LoreReloaded, there was an idea I had had about why the Changeling-O’Brien revealed himself to Sisko. I admit it’s definitely out there, but nonetheless, I think it has at least SOME water: the Changelings wanted Leyton out of the picture. They wanted to remove him from power. We know he was a veteran of the Federation-Tzenkethi War, so he is an experienced soldier. The Changelings perhaps could have feared what Starfleet could do if he was in command when the Federation and Dominion went to war. We know that the Dominion plays the long game, targeting the most powerful blocks of the Alpha Quadrant powers: the Obsidian Order, the Tal’Shiar, General Martok, etc. They may have actually secretly helped Leyton advance his coup solely to have Sisko move against him and stop to remove him from power, preventing an experienced and militaristic commander from leading the attack against the Dominion. Again, I recognize this might be a reach, but nonetheless, I don’t think it’s totally without merit
Maybe the changeling Admiral was sent by the Shadows?!
As to Earth being defenseless, well we have seen it's not typical for orbital defenses in the Star Trek universe. There is some logic to that. With ships as powerful as they are, it would be hard to mount a planet wide coverage net. Still it's probably possible. We did see how heavily Chin'toka got fortified. Yet also we didn't see any kind of shield generator that could defend a whole planet. I don't think we ever saw that, not in the hands of starfleet. Only smaller coverage ones for installation protection. So putting batteries in orbit would invite planet wide destruction as a fleet engage those defense batteries with Earth itself as the backdrop for any misses or falling debris. In such a case, it may be conventional wisdom for the Trek universe to not put armed satellites in orbit of densely populated worlds. Skipping such a fight for a ground war where casualties could be more restrained.
The lack of power though, it does have real ramifications for their defense. Any ground war in Trek would likely involve shielded hard points of resistance, mass use of transporters to move forces as needed. Heavy use of communications and sensors to coordinate the fight. Shuttle support and perhaps some form of atmospheric fighters as well. Not to mention reliance on their sophisticated medical facilities to tend wounded. Even the local populace relies on power for their food and likely water. Every one of these things is kaput with the juice down. Even the shuttles/fighters if you can't get the hangars open without power to their doors. Your blind and can't react to landing forces, not to any meaningful degree. The handful of ships near Earth and Space Dock will try to help. However their not enough to stop even a medium fleet who can just fly to the side of Earth the Starbase isn't over. Beam down invasion troops then give the defenders the bird while dealing with the ships as needed and station later. After all at this time the war wasn't in full swing. They weren't keeping a full fleet sitting around to protect Earth during this time. Likely with the ideal any hostile fleet would be detected entering Federation space, with Starfleet Command coordinating their assets to respond. Well now Starfleet command can't access most of their coms/deep space intel feed, and are relying on ships passing message through one another making coordination difficult at best.
Just a quick note, if I may, about the constant random blood screenings..........you can only screen a person so many times before they are incapacitated from blood loss! It takes 3 months, give or take, to rebuild a 450ml blood donation. Screen the same person say 10 times a day, say 10ml per, 2-3 days and people will feel the effects.
That’s just my opinion your results may vary
I would like to point out one thing: The Police Force is a part of Star Fleet as well. That can explain some of the problems.
The reason changeling O'Brien told Sisko is because the changelings were afraid of a militant starfleet. Sure, they were their to cause chaos, but a militant starfleet is the opposite of that. And it would make them dangerous.
Situation is a bit extreme however. We aren't talking about being forced to carry identifying papers or medical experimentation or similar oppressive actions. Which even we in the states go along with the papers thing, harmless enough starting out but becoming more draconian as time passes. This is more of a threat among you situation like in the Thing films. Something is there, it's replaced someone, and it poses a significant threat to any and all around it. As a temporary emergency measure it's acceptable to force testing to try to find the threat. Temporary only, because that sort of apparatus could be misused later on for things like genetic profiling etc. Also Starfleet is generally trusted, far as we know except by a handful. You yourself have this intense focus on presenting them as a military organization. While there are military aspects, and they do help cover that roll as they are the line of defense for that utopia. That is not the only thing Starfleet does. It has been forced more and more into that role, since Roddenberry passed away and a slow drive towards pew pew for ratings started supplanting the original message and ideal of Star Trek. Their not pacifists of course, but they were very much idealists. They fight when they need to, and the scale was more in line with that then the modern pew fest that's grown popular. In DS9 it wasn't so bad, I rather liked it after getting older then going back to rewatch. But that slide has landed us firmly in the garbage pile of Discovery not to mention the Kelvin timelines tendency for flashy nonsensical battles. Over I might good storytelling and measured, logical combat as needed.
I would submit that if Sisko didn't completely blindside the changelings, they had every reason to bait sisko into acting.
Consider:
If Layton succeded, that would almost certainly cause a civil war, and possibly many species leaving the federation, which easily could have swung the war decisively in the Dominion's favor.
If Layton was stopped, the coup attempt would become very public. Even if this didn't lead to reforms of starfleet curtailing its power, making the war easier for the dominion, it would deal a huge blow to the appearence of starfleet. And it appears, given that the federation was facing a 'manpower shortage(in the pale moonlight)' that they didn't have a draft. So public support equals manpower, and they couldn't lose either.
So how did Sisko blindside them? He talked Layton down. No blood spilling on earth, no fleet battles that would have been impossible to cover up, Sisko talks Layton into convincing everyone to stand down, and covers the whole thing up(implied). If it wasn't sisko's unique blend of sometimes rulethless pragmatism and duty to the ideals of starfleet, this could have swung the war decisively in the dominion's favor no matter how it played out. To my mind Sisko saves the entire federation here just as much as he does in sacrifice of angels.
What you talked about family not having to follow my orders. Is why my family always lived off post. I signed up not my wife and kids.
given the original air date for this mini arc, only a few years before 9/11, I’d say the story was quite prophetic
I wonder what section 31 was doing during the coup.
simply watching from afar and get a plan to diposing anybody that won if they get in the way
lore did a video with Layton as a section 31 plant
It works pretty good.
Is it just me, or does it seem like this was a prediction for Post-9/11America?
Also, look at how many colonies Starfleet lost to the Borg. Planetary Protection seems pretty damn low.
Just a reminder, the Mars Defense Perimeter consisted of three tiny patrol ships, that charged at a Borg cube and got vaporized in seconds
i was just going to say that. mars "defense" perimeter. smh. a drunk admiral helming a decommed constitution class with no phasers orbiting the moon would be better "defense" than that.
@@JohnnyMidnyte At least the disarmed Constitution might do some damage ramming into it. Hell, Kirk once killed an ancient robotic super weapon by ramming a crippled Constitution down its throat
@@JohnnyMidnyte Also, I was wrong, I just rechecked the clip, the three patrol ships didn't even last seconds, they all get taken out inside of one second
3 of the most highly trained people in the system!
@@ZedSnardbody Personally, my head canon is that the Mars Defense Perimeter used to be an extensive network of sensor nets and weapons platforms, akin to the GOD Platforms from B5, but this being the Golden Age of the Federation and Star Fleet not having had any kind of real challenge in more than sixty years at this point, the M.D.P just got less and less resources until it was a defense perimeter in the same sense as the police putting up some tape to stop some one entering an area: It won't actually stop anything, but you're just not supposed to cross it, that's against the rules.
The disconnect is that we live in a world where you have to distrust everyone. The people in the Federation apparently live in 1945 America where there's no apparent reason to distrust authority.
The female Changeling said that Odo had brought disunity to the Great Link. I always assumed that the O'Brian Changeling was one of those dissenters. Except this one after spending time on Earth realized why Odo felt loyalty to these Solids and wanted Sisko to stop Lyton. It wouldn't actively disrupt the Founders plan, but wanted to test Sisko and see if his conclusion was correct. Remember Sisko acted as if he already called the Defiant back to Earth. Which means he knows about the sabotage of Wormhole array. The only thing the O'Brian Changeling did was confirm that yes they are there Changelings on Earth causing Havoc. But that as the Changeling said, 'In the end its your fear that will destroy you.' He also said he would be seeing Sisko again, so he may have been the Bashir Changeling too.
That or the writers were scared the audience wouldn't get the point of the two parter so creating this one off Changeling to spoon fed the audience the necessary mindset.
Or a motive for the changeling which goes to their central drive: Chaos. Since they view order as the greatest good, why would they not view chaos as the greatest evil to be worked on their enemies? Set Starfleet's titans against each other and watch them fall. Layton was a budding dictator, but he was also a great strategist and organizer. Starfleet no doubt lost a lot of competent, if misguided, officers in the coup crackdown.
Learned helplessness. He wanted Sisco to feel with out hope.
That horse looks like two changelings nose to tail to me.
3:10 I would put that sort of stuff down to a kind of 'War Powers' Act kind of law giving Starfleet more power temporarily. This sort of thing is more common outside the US due to how well protected the US is in terms of natural borders compared to other countries.
No we have them to that's how Japanese Internment and the like happened. See also Lincoln suspending Habeas Corpus. Anyway the laws certainly exist we just don't use them as much.
All I can think of is Systems Alliance from Mass Effect absolutely shredding federation in Space blitzkrieg.
@3:30 - I would offer an alternate potential interpretation. Since this is being approved by the Federation President, perhaps this is not actually Federation civilians falling under Starfleet rule... but actually new (if paranoid and questionable) Federation law sanctioned and enacted by the President/council, with Starfleet merely acting as the facilitators of the new policy under civilian Presidential jurisdiction?
I mean, I'm not a lawyer or a JAG; I don't know if that legally works. And it certainly doesn't make everything hunky-dory. But, it might at least be a slightly different and *somewhat* less totalitarian situation, at least where Starfleet's role is concerned.
The scope of Federation control over its citizens is not startling in the slightest.
The UFP has long been unambiguous in not tolerating dissent from its 'evolved human' ideology. Since TNG onward, it has been an obvious soft-fascist (or, perhaps, soft-communist) regime. Such regimes don't need a lot of nudging to go from soft mode to hard mode.
"Science fiction is just reality ahead of schedule. "
SEE NOW...
Exactly.
Totally agree. I was really upset at having to give my finger prints an retina scan when i went to the US i did not have to go
James Rodgers welcome to the metrics of the GWOT.
Shifty O’Brien’s telling Sisko a number is a great tactic, what if there’s only 3 Changlings or way more than 4? It gives Starfleet the “body count number” that led us into the depths of political ploys and unnecessary operations in the Vietnam War. Physical numbers as goals in counter-insurgency campaigns don’t ever have the results the creators of said goal wished for.
When it comes to the Changeling talking to Sisko, what are the benefits and losses? And is the Changeling even telling the truth? (Note that in the clip, the Changeling doesn't technically confirm that it was exactly four, he instead asks Sisko "What if I were to tell you" and works from there.) Will any person acting out of fear or personal gain suddenly change their minds if Sisko says "This totally trustworthy enemy Changling went out of his way to personally inform me that there were only four Changelings on Earth, so we should all stop panicking about the Changeling threat. Because, uhm, we can't do anything about it?" One could also argue that the Changelings see Sisko as particularly important (and dangerous), and wanted to try to drive a sense of futility and hopelessness into him.
Keep talking like this guy. I totally agree with you on this
That policing without consent, good story to compare to the way police are now, as for your earth defenseless you right look at when the breen attack n as Martock said not even the klingon would have done it
I think the O'Brien changeling tells Sisko how many there are because the changelings are arrogant. As you point out, Starfleet's attempts to detect changelings is worthless, the changelings can just sit back and watch the havoc, I think the conversation with Sisko was just to brag and stir the pot more.
It looks like to me in time of war, Starfleet needs like a Admiral Janeway joseph stalin. LMFAO
I hope you cover Psychopath Squad, I mean Red Squad with this series.
The most likely scenario is that this is the changeling that took Bashir's spot on ds9 or one of them, he comments on grabbing a pint and throwing darts, which indicates he has knowledge from ds9 with the real O'Brian
You want intrusion? In TNG S1/E26 "The Neutral Zone", people stuck in cryo for nearly 400 years have their descendants tracked down by DNA, from literally light-years away......Hope Starfleet's comm security is good......
The novelization of The Motion Picture does seem to indicate that Earth does have a planetary defence shield and ground to space weapons.
It definitely has one in the early Kelvin timeline (as Nero needs the frequencies for this shield from Pike to deploy his weapons ) therefore it's extremely likely the prime earth does too
The issue ultimately is you're applying the U.S constitution to a 24th-century civilization that spans thousands of lightyears. I concur that it would be unlikely that the protections of the U.S bill of rights, would not be the basis of a government of this timeframe, looking at the influences the Magna Carter had on our own (American) form of government. Unfortunately, we have very little knowledge of what the federation version of the constitution would look like, Data and the EMH had countless litigations that would have been thrown out entirely in our system once personhood was established. However, I believe this was a great episode and showed how ready people would give up their rights for security when they deserve neither (spin on a ben franklin quote). This is one episode like the drumhead that really needs to be studied in the future, Imho.
Everytime rights are brought up they parody, and then ignore, the us constitution
Well of course no one was against Starfleet, they made sure the gelato machines ran cold.
And also the trains on time.
The idea that the entire planet’s power grid can be shut down seems stupid. Even though our current grid is woefully out of date you can’t shit down the entire country in one shot.
I might be remembering wrong and I don't remember my source but I thought Space Dock didn't have weapons because they didn't want it to be too militaristic. On top of that I thought one of the reasons Space Dock wasn't given weapons is because they already had orbiting defensive platforms.
Why didn't they just test them using the transporter? Just program in an alert when they transport a Changeling. That should cover about 90% of the people on ships and space stations. Alarm trips and you just throw up a force field around the transporter bay.
I always wondered. After challenging O’Brien said he thought they could go to the bar and hang out....what if Sisko said “fuck it, let’s go”
Chess?... They should have been playing in some GO along with that endgame strategy and maybe they wouldn't have had to rely on blind dumb luck to win a war again. Everyone else was playing Chess while The Dominion was doing the doing small GO strategy that can be taken with a few well-placed pebbles in a certain section. That is the way I see The Dominion war.
I don’t mind the new style because my tiny brain prefers moving pictures, but I wish it didn’t have to have that grungy bootleg filter over it. I know why you have to, so I won’t complain, but it does clash a bit with the ultra clean Star Trek aesthetic (whereas Alien Theory can do almost the same thing all day long and it actually enhances his video clips).
Also being American, I find the aspects of this future “utopia” presented here rather unsettling. Utopias are oppressive and homogenous societies that are incompatible with individual rights; basically soft dystopias.
By modern standards Thomas More's Utopia would be utterly terrifying.
It was terrifying by the standards of the 1500s.
There something I find disturbing and frightening about these episodes. Like NY plays host to the UN the earth plays host to Federation HQ etc however it is still a member state with all the rights of one it should have its own government and security force but we never see any trace of it even though we should its only Starfleet security we see on the streets. When they request permission for martial law its the federation president they go to not the earths its like the earth gov is completely dominated by star fleet with no say so what ever.
There's an argument to be made that we know of the federation government is considerably less well balanced than the US government. Starfleet seems to handle all military operations, lots of scientific research, a great deal of diplomacy, and all earth doctors(I don't think we actually ever see a civilian practice). And effective declarations of war? Just talk to starfleet command. Whatever the hell the 'federation council' does, it's not authorizing wars with galactic empires. But perhaps more than that, it's extremely unclear how much civilian control exists of starfleet.
Perhaps one might argue that humanity thought, united, peaceful, and with such vast resources, they didn't feel the need to impose strict checks and balances that might make the government less efficient. It's also possible, if what Sloan told Bashir about the origins of section 31 are true, that the founders of the federation had a love of dictatorships far beyond what anyone in DS9 really wants to acknowledge.
And given the US government, with checks and balances so strong that sometimes our governance grinds to a halt, has a great many times throughout its history suspended civil liberties in wartime, well, sadly, I can't say this is a terribly unrealistic thing to happen.
I agree, checks and balances is a joke our us government grinds to a halt and nothing gets done and havnt since for a very long time, be so much better if it was elimated and people actually voted competently and didn't focus on their 'right' to vote
This WAS during a time of war, where the military will have greater powers afforded to them that they normally wouldn't have had and we can presume that people on Earth will have a greater implicit trust of Starfleet as one of the Federations oldest and most highly respected and prestigious institutions, so people are going to listen and trust that the Starfleet security personnel have their best interests at heart when they give those blood tests. I'm also going to play devil's advocate about Sisko insisting that all families of Starfleet personnel be blood screened, including his own father, because if Sisko lets it slide for his own family, it undermines the entire purpose of the exercise.
Also, I'm not seeing Federation citizens of certain ethic backgrounds being herded into internment camps, like the US government did to Japanese-American citizens during WW2, or being black listed from their professions like under McCarthyism. This is Sisko doing what he can to protect the heart of the Federation, in the only way he knows how and as sinister as it may seem to us, far, FAR worse things have and continue to be done in the name of National Security
There was no war at this time..stated or otherwise
@Lore Reloaded, one caveat to your belief its insane to have family on military installations that could be attacked: a friend of mine, whose father served in Guantanamo back in the 1980's had lived on the base as a kid. The parallels are equal between Starfleet families and military families in real world, the reality is military service members sometimes have to take their families with them on extnded duty and to parts of the world, which may be hostile or dangerous.
I am not arguing it is smart to have civilians on a military base, but it is established as a real world concept
His family had to deal with changelings that could suicide bomb stuff..did they? :P
@@LoreReloaded You do know Guantanamo Bay base or Gitmo is still home to spouses, infants, and children of military personnel and also the detention facility of terrorists captured by the US. So, yeah, they could very likely be in danger of getting blown up by a suicide bomber today. :( Like I keep telling you, I don't approve of a lot of stuff that goes on in the world, but I also don't pretend its not true.
Still let's focus on the past with Star Trek, we both know that back during the Cold War military kids were living on bases just a few hundred yards apart from ICBM's and were like 1st strike locations for Soviet and Chinese weapons. Even back then these places were dangerous.
Funny story my friend told me, she had a babysitter on the base who she didn't like. So one time, she snuck out and hid away at friend's place. What happened next, they had a lock down of the entire base to search, they even began calling up diplomatic corps to see if they could get permission to get into Cuba, right before she was discovered. She tells the story now as a joke about nearly causing an international incident, but reality is military base life is dangerous from either external threats or human stupidity.
@Lore Reloaded Military brats have the best stories, they've seen the world and understand first hand what the lines on borders actually mean. Even domestic US bases have their fair share of exotic stories and dangers.
No families on Military ships and bases? That's crazy talk! :)
Insanity!!!
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watch this video
@@LoreReloaded Ships is kinda dumb, bases not so much that is pretty common today though of course we are not talking about border outposts and such here it's generally permanent bases well inside what is ostensibly considered friendly territory. Course they are probably not really in much more danger there than in a civilian city after all as soon as the enemy gains the ability to project force inside your borders anyone living near any target that has any kind of strategic value is at risk and this of course includes a large fraction of the civilian population of any city on Earth as cities are filled with strategically useful support infrastructure (Transportation, Factories etc) that can and usually does end up contributing to the ability to continue to wage war.
one thing about space dock adding in the defense of earth, not sure if alpha or beta cannon, but wasn't space dock purposefully built without weapons? I'm sure it has impressive shields and a whole deck dedicated to tech-tech, but no guns. Also if they were able to shut down space dock, does anyone know how long it would take for those ships trapped inside to cut their way out?
also, I have a hard time believing that the planet could be so crippled after a power outage after the whole whale probe incident.
We're going to hail your ship and yell at you really loudly to get off our space lawn if you get too close to it!
2:49 Couldn't agree more!
What's the deal with having civilians in places and vessels that can potentially get into combat???
After wolf 359..youd think they would stop that immediately
@@LoreReloaded They kept on having families on Starships, because Starfleet has the collective memory of a goldfish and seem to believe their impenetrable aura of smug self righteousness will protect them from a hostile universe because "We're explorers, not soldiers" and surely the gargantuan space beasts, hazardous spacial anomalies and violently xenophobic alien warrior races will respect that.
@@LoreReloaded Yup but that's the kumbayah attitude of the Federation though bthey do start designing a modern combat starship...
And I think Section-31 (My heroes) may have started changing things subtly from within the Federation.
@@LoreReloaded That's what I like about DS-9 as it is the most mature Star Trek series.
Any decision made in anger fear or any other negative emotion will always be wrong.
Good job none of those phaser detectors were faulty or they’d have barbecued Odo
Careful about getting political here! Suggesting that we have rights is provocative and could get you demonetized.
Rights and freedom is a dog whistle for white supremancy kkk nazi stuff
Am I a good non binary boy ?
@@scottmurphy4946 Boy? BOY?! To the re-education gulag with you!
Are you equating RUclips to a Government. RUclips isn't a public utility. So just donate to his patreon.
@@Mate397 You mean San Fransisco..... wait a sec.... Starfleet HQ is IN San Fransisco. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!
I always thought the blood screenings were a complete waste of time because changeling can just be a random object on the street. What are you going to do, blood screen every object on the planet? And then keep those objects under surveillance to make sure the changeling doesn't turn into an object thats already been tested?
We have civilian families on our military bases, both domestic and especially in (safe) foreign countries. Be the equivalent of having families on a starbase. The real issue is having them on ships assigned to Military Operations Command (border patrols) and Galaxy Operations Command (completely unknown areas, with completely unknown dangers).
I never understood why Sisko had to test his father when his father did not live on my star fleet installation.
You should have the cable guy come over and check out your service.
Vcr guy actually...darn ancient tech
Now that you mention it, why were these same measures in place during the Borg scare at all? There is no evidence the Borg did anything covert, ever, and they flew around in that giant cube announcing their intentions to everyone within communications range.
In the case of the Borg successfully reaching Earth and taking out orbital defenses, the planet is effectively lost no matter how many ground troops you have. Keeping the Earth population under martial law doesn't make at any more defensible against a cybernetic ground force with the ability to adapt immunity to guns and rapidly assimilate more fighters from the other side.
Why the changelling "O'Brien" did that is an easy answer. With Leyton, without someone to stop him, the Federation will be more militaristic, more active and less static. Not a better Federation perhaps, but a better one to fight a war. That is not what the Dominion want. A more active and agressive Federation? The only way it could work is if this more agressive Federation make moves against the Klingons and start a war, but surely, Leyton's Federation would have helped the klingon "secure" the quadrant instead of opossing them.
They dont want an active Federation. They want a distracted one. A inner conflict. A scandal, or better, a civil war. Something that breaks the confidence of the Federation, and their independent government. So, they dont need a Leyton making a Federation more prepared. They need a Leyton doing that, and someone trying to stop him, beginning a conflict. In an altertative reality, we could have seen a Sisko leading a faction of starfleet (maybe deep spaces bases, some planets, and spaceships far from the center of the Federation) against a Leyton controling the capital, the inner bases and fleets, allied with Growron.