I just hosted my first in person game as the story teller and it was awesome. Thanks to: Ben/Skills/Aggie/Edd for being such awesome story tellers ❤️ and everyone else for being having such fun games to teach me 😀
Yeah, this is why I'm not a huge fan of legion games. Even with Ben's help towards legion, most of the good team here trusted each other, but a single wrong good vote on the final day loses the game no matter what. I've yet to see a legion game where it felt like good had a fair chance aside from somehow pulling perfect voting strategy out of the very little actual information they get. That said, this was absolutely a fun game to watch even with the frustrating end.
How the heck did evil win this game? It felt like they did nothing for the first two thirds of the game, and then somehow pulled it out at the end. Feel sorry for Sam: deserved to be on the winning team.
I was sadly dumb enough to scroll down and read this comment, but thankfully only spoiled about 30 minutes of gameplay. Firstly remember that we know perfect info so you're being a bit overly judgmental of how people are playing with limited info and 8 people getting the same 3 bluffs. Evil were playing a pretty decent game considering they didn't double up like mad to make it obviously Legion, and the Lunatic had all the info on who's good or not and sat next to an Empath. Even Nicky's silly Atheist play was messing with people. This ending shows quite well how dangerous it is to vote as a good player in a Legion game. If you sow doubt into just ONE player, they'll pounce. If Malashaan went for Atheist win, the exact same thing would've happened.
@@TheFinalChapters Oh, hi again. You're wrong yet again, sadly. It's common for Legion to double up because, though the ST doesn't *have* to, they generally get the same 3 bluffs to balance things out. Legion has more room to bluff by just guessing blindly because there's less good roles out there, but reality is that some of them inevitably double up--especially if they're not heavily experienced players. I think I've only seen a handful of games where Legion didn't double up claims (and I've seen non-Legion games where good double up and think it's Legion because of it). If I were wrong about this, why do people mention it regularly when they play Legion scripts? This is another case of you thinking what the ideal play is and not realizing the actual human players involved and how they behave. Just like last time, you're ignoring the fact you have perfect info. How does the good team know evil players are being executed or that good players aren't?
@@TheFinalChapters You did. You said it's not a good metric and sells Atheist. You also suggested we can know people's alignment when there's no set way for evil to play. They can be outed evil, they can pretend to be a shy good player that doesn't want to vote, they can "confirm" other Legion, they can do whatever they want. Good can also act evil in literally any game of BotC.
@@TheFinalChapters "Instead you should be looking at who was getting executed... and it wasn't the good players." Your words. Who knows that it wasn't good players? Us, because we have perfect info. The players certainly didn't know that. So why is your argument even slightly relevant? Also not sure what any of this has to do with my original comment. I simply said it was impressive Legion wasn't doubling up and they almost got good team with an Atheist play, but the key point was that all it takes is a single person to turn on another good and it's game over. How is anything you're saying relevant?
@@TheFinalChapters Why is what the players know relevant? LMAO. I don't know, maybe because it's a game between players and a huge part of the game is the players' experience? You've got to be kidding me, man. You're so wrapped up in ranting about meta and best plays, you can't even see why it's such a silly thing to do. Who cares how the game went from the perspective of us, the spectators? They're not playing for our entertainment. Our view of the entire game isn't relevant to the player experience. It'd be like watching someone play a FPS game but you see the entire battlefield and map and you judge them for not seeing an enemy coming to flank them. I don't know what weird narcissistic world you live in, but man do you need some perspective.
A question about the soundtrack used... the soundtrack as around 1:14:00 and forward... is that a slight remix of the ambiance soundtrack from The Tone Rebellion?
@39:13 Am I right in thinking the good players made a cunning play here that Ben missed? It was only 3 Legion votes when the clock stopped after two good players removed their votes last minute. Therefore, he should have said Zero votes is not enough? Rather than 3?
Upon watching several more videos, I now think that the zero result is only given if the required number of votes are reached with only Legion votes. If true that makes the mechanic much less scary for the evil team but they would still have to watch out. Open to confirmation either way from those who know.
@@ThisisnotTwitter Different story tellers run it differently. if the vote is 3 Legion 0 good, and 3 is the limit some would say "Three may be enough", some would say "0 is not enough", some would say "3 is enough" and then at the close of day "With three votes Skilz is on the block but the execution fails go to sleep". (My personal preference is the "may be enough" being used whenever legion is on the script). In the case here, 3 was not enough either way so there is no benefit in revealing legion for a vote that can not cause an execution.
@@mrmalaki thanks! That makes sense that it must reach the minimum vote number before being revealed. Saying maybe would make it clear it is Legion just the same as saying zero though? How does the maybe option work differently to saying zero votes is not enough? The execution failing is a good option as it leaves it open to being other things rather than certainly being "these guys are Legion, nom them all now."
@@ThisisnotTwitter if you use "may be enough" on any nomination where legion is on the script (whether it is in play or not) it removes that players mindset of "they said maybe its definitely legion". Especially if you keep using it after something has proven that it's a different demon type. The "execution has failed" actually proves the Legion. In other circumstances STs should say "Player_Name is executed but does not die". However the length of time between Nom, votes and announcement gives evil time to try and get someone else on the block, or it might give good players time to forget which players actually voted. I don't think that there is a perfect way of running legion, by final 5 most players will know its legion. Similar to how it is often clear when it is Lil Monsta. The game solve isn't just from working out the demon type in those games (as it can be in a No Dashii/Pukka/Fang Gu game) - but rather in finding and confirming the good players.
You know what might also be a fun atheist game? Everyone (except for atheist) is lunatic legion. Every legion gets 3 bluffs with overlap. Ask each legion what you think they'll be bluffing. Casually wake one or lunatics to "check in on things," ask them what they are going to tell people they did that night/do in the day that they're bluffing. And act accordingly as if they were Edit: forgot to add, play like a poppy grower is in play
I've heard stories of STs doing this before. It's a really cool idea. I imagine it'd be hard to provide a reasonable amount of subtle clues to it being an Atheist game, as you have so few good characters to play with. But that doesn't mean it's undoable. - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower I feel the hinting could be done on two levels: give identical or nearly identical bluffs to everyone, and with things such as the bluff actions, directly tell the lunatic minions their information. Example, bluffing empath: you learn a one; night watchman? Someone else learns night watchman/lunatic/other random role. Giving bizarre "confirmation" information ultimately. I feel seeing players visibly try to figure out what is going on with all that would be amazing. I understand what you mean though, Ben, and I appreciate your reply!
I wonder if you could do an Atheist + fake Legion game. Librarian, Gravedigger, and Virgin could all reveal a Legion member is a Lunatic. Do this multiple times and town could confirm a second Lunatic. Then the good players have to convince the “evil” players…
as a newer player seeing this insanity, why doesnt good always vote the story teller dead day 1? it either confirms or denys an atheist and can be automatically a win (edit, when an athiest is in play, why not vote story teller, i know why not if the atheist isnt on the script.
Hey, thanks for the question. The Storyteller can only be nominated and voted on if the Atheist is on the script. If the Atheist is not in play when the Storyteller is nominated an executed, then the Evil Team instantly wins. This is why good players don't nominate and execute the Storyteller on day one. If you're on the good team and someone else is claiming to be the Atheist, you know that either (a) they are the Atheist and telling the truth or (b) they are an evil player who knows an Atheist is not in play, and are trying to win by tricking you into executing the Storyteller. - Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower thanks for the answer, does it explain the loss condition in the almanac or somewhere else since it sounds like nom the st would lose in any script where you can only win if the atheist is in play
@@BloodontheClocktower I've also been wondering this for ages. "Evil wins if the storyteller is executed if no atheist is in play" isn't listed anywhere in the character description, on the script or on the wiki. I think it should maybe be listed either on the script, or in the character description? Just looking at the script, the players would have no way of knowing this.
Maybe not my place but as a NB person it's honestly really annoying to see cis people with literal pronouns in their names still misgendering trans ppl
I just hosted my first in person game as the story teller and it was awesome. Thanks to: Ben/Skills/Aggie/Edd for being such awesome story tellers ❤️ and everyone else for being having such fun games to teach me 😀
I was kind of hoping Sam's bluffs would be Empath, Investigator, Virgin
While that would be funny, he’d probably work it out way too quickly
Props to Sam for solving the game, and to Jams for gaining Sam’s trust, and to Skillz for (as usual-it’s getting uncanny) reading the ST like a book.
Those three really all played phenomenally this game.
Yeah, this is why I'm not a huge fan of legion games. Even with Ben's help towards legion, most of the good team here trusted each other, but a single wrong good vote on the final day loses the game no matter what. I've yet to see a legion game where it felt like good had a fair chance aside from somehow pulling perfect voting strategy out of the very little actual information they get. That said, this was absolutely a fun game to watch even with the frustrating end.
Loved being able to meet jams at origins. I wish I could solve puzzles like they can
jams is a girl ?
@@ass-master-deluxe unsure what your point is?
@@supay_inca jams girl?
This script has the possibility for three people to claim atheist each for a completely viable and understandable reason
The Atheist, obviously. Any Demon as always. Who else?
atheist game, with a poppygrower, and a full team of Luna Legion
Holy s! Jams is THE BEST at spinning worlds. #GOAT
How the heck did evil win this game? It felt like they did nothing for the first two thirds of the game, and then somehow pulled it out at the end. Feel sorry for Sam: deserved to be on the winning team.
I was sadly dumb enough to scroll down and read this comment, but thankfully only spoiled about 30 minutes of gameplay.
Firstly remember that we know perfect info so you're being a bit overly judgmental of how people are playing with limited info and 8 people getting the same 3 bluffs. Evil were playing a pretty decent game considering they didn't double up like mad to make it obviously Legion, and the Lunatic had all the info on who's good or not and sat next to an Empath. Even Nicky's silly Atheist play was messing with people. This ending shows quite well how dangerous it is to vote as a good player in a Legion game. If you sow doubt into just ONE player, they'll pounce. If Malashaan went for Atheist win, the exact same thing would've happened.
@@TheFinalChapters Oh, hi again. You're wrong yet again, sadly. It's common for Legion to double up because, though the ST doesn't *have* to, they generally get the same 3 bluffs to balance things out. Legion has more room to bluff by just guessing blindly because there's less good roles out there, but reality is that some of them inevitably double up--especially if they're not heavily experienced players. I think I've only seen a handful of games where Legion didn't double up claims (and I've seen non-Legion games where good double up and think it's Legion because of it). If I were wrong about this, why do people mention it regularly when they play Legion scripts? This is another case of you thinking what the ideal play is and not realizing the actual human players involved and how they behave.
Just like last time, you're ignoring the fact you have perfect info. How does the good team know evil players are being executed or that good players aren't?
@@TheFinalChapters You did. You said it's not a good metric and sells Atheist.
You also suggested we can know people's alignment when there's no set way for evil to play. They can be outed evil, they can pretend to be a shy good player that doesn't want to vote, they can "confirm" other Legion, they can do whatever they want. Good can also act evil in literally any game of BotC.
@@TheFinalChapters "Instead you should be looking at who was getting executed... and it wasn't the good players." Your words. Who knows that it wasn't good players? Us, because we have perfect info. The players certainly didn't know that. So why is your argument even slightly relevant?
Also not sure what any of this has to do with my original comment. I simply said it was impressive Legion wasn't doubling up and they almost got good team with an Atheist play, but the key point was that all it takes is a single person to turn on another good and it's game over. How is anything you're saying relevant?
@@TheFinalChapters Why is what the players know relevant? LMAO. I don't know, maybe because it's a game between players and a huge part of the game is the players' experience? You've got to be kidding me, man. You're so wrapped up in ranting about meta and best plays, you can't even see why it's such a silly thing to do.
Who cares how the game went from the perspective of us, the spectators? They're not playing for our entertainment. Our view of the entire game isn't relevant to the player experience. It'd be like watching someone play a FPS game but you see the entire battlefield and map and you judge them for not seeing an enemy coming to flank them. I don't know what weird narcissistic world you live in, but man do you need some perspective.
This was such a weird game, and I love it
A question about the soundtrack used... the soundtrack as around 1:14:00 and forward... is that a slight remix of the ambiance soundtrack from The Tone Rebellion?
I am Legion, for we are many.
@39:13 Am I right in thinking the good players made a cunning play here that Ben missed?
It was only 3 Legion votes when the clock stopped after two good players removed their votes last minute.
Therefore, he should have said Zero votes is not enough? Rather than 3?
Upon watching several more videos, I now think that the zero result is only given if the required number of votes are reached with only Legion votes.
If true that makes the mechanic much less scary for the evil team but they would still have to watch out.
Open to confirmation either way from those who know.
@@ThisisnotTwitter Different story tellers run it differently. if the vote is 3 Legion 0 good, and 3 is the limit some would say "Three may be enough", some would say "0 is not enough", some would say "3 is enough" and then at the close of day "With three votes Skilz is on the block but the execution fails go to sleep". (My personal preference is the "may be enough" being used whenever legion is on the script).
In the case here, 3 was not enough either way so there is no benefit in revealing legion for a vote that can not cause an execution.
@@mrmalaki thanks! That makes sense that it must reach the minimum vote number before being revealed.
Saying maybe would make it clear it is Legion just the same as saying zero though? How does the maybe option work differently to saying zero votes is not enough?
The execution failing is a good option as it leaves it open to being other things rather than certainly being "these guys are Legion, nom them all now."
@@ThisisnotTwitter if you use "may be enough" on any nomination where legion is on the script (whether it is in play or not) it removes that players mindset of "they said maybe its definitely legion". Especially if you keep using it after something has proven that it's a different demon type.
The "execution has failed" actually proves the Legion. In other circumstances STs should say "Player_Name is executed but does not die". However the length of time between Nom, votes and announcement gives evil time to try and get someone else on the block, or it might give good players time to forget which players actually voted.
I don't think that there is a perfect way of running legion, by final 5 most players will know its legion. Similar to how it is often clear when it is Lil Monsta.
The game solve isn't just from working out the demon type in those games (as it can be in a No Dashii/Pukka/Fang Gu game) - but rather in finding and confirming the good players.
@@mrmalaki Thanks very much, that all makes sense and I see the differences between each method.
You know what might also be a fun atheist game? Everyone (except for atheist) is lunatic legion. Every legion gets 3 bluffs with overlap. Ask each legion what you think they'll be bluffing. Casually wake one or lunatics to "check in on things," ask them what they are going to tell people they did that night/do in the day that they're bluffing. And act accordingly as if they were
Edit: forgot to add, play like a poppy grower is in play
I've heard stories of STs doing this before. It's a really cool idea. I imagine it'd be hard to provide a reasonable amount of subtle clues to it being an Atheist game, as you have so few good characters to play with. But that doesn't mean it's undoable. - Ben
@@BloodontheClocktower I feel the hinting could be done on two levels: give identical or nearly identical bluffs to everyone, and with things such as the bluff actions, directly tell the lunatic minions their information. Example, bluffing empath: you learn a one; night watchman? Someone else learns night watchman/lunatic/other random role. Giving bizarre "confirmation" information ultimately. I feel seeing players visibly try to figure out what is going on with all that would be amazing. I understand what you mean though, Ben, and I appreciate your reply!
I wonder if you could do an Atheist + fake Legion game. Librarian, Gravedigger, and Virgin could all reveal a Legion member is a Lunatic. Do this multiple times and town could confirm a second Lunatic. Then the good players have to convince the “evil” players…
as a newer player seeing this insanity, why doesnt good always vote the story teller dead day 1? it either confirms or denys an atheist and can be automatically a win (edit, when an athiest is in play, why not vote story teller, i know why not if the atheist isnt on the script.
Hey, thanks for the question. The Storyteller can only be nominated and voted on if the Atheist is on the script. If the Atheist is not in play when the Storyteller is nominated an executed, then the Evil Team instantly wins. This is why good players don't nominate and execute the Storyteller on day one. If you're on the good team and someone else is claiming to be the Atheist, you know that either (a) they are the Atheist and telling the truth or (b) they are an evil player who knows an Atheist is not in play, and are trying to win by tricking you into executing the Storyteller.
- Evin
@@BloodontheClocktower thanks for the answer, does it explain the loss condition in the almanac or somewhere else since it sounds like nom the st would lose in any script where you can only win if the atheist is in play
Yep, it's all taken care of in the almanac.
@@BloodontheClocktower I've also been wondering this for ages. "Evil wins if the storyteller is executed if no atheist is in play" isn't listed anywhere in the character description, on the script or on the wiki. I think it should maybe be listed either on the script, or in the character description? Just looking at the script, the players would have no way of knowing this.
Whose team was Jams on?
Yes
Yes
Maybe not my place but as a NB person it's honestly really annoying to see cis people with literal pronouns in their names still misgendering trans ppl