James, I have read both your books and have enjoyed them immensely. I really like your take on life, work, and sailing. Keep up the good work. Ken in Orlando
I like your design for the drogue. On our Pearson Triton we used a 24 inch sea anchor on 200 feet of half inch nylon line with a swivel at the sea anchor. In a big storm off the Oregon coast the load was so great it parted the line in the middle. After that we either ran under bare poles or hove-to. Loved our Triton to the south Pacific and back.
Thank you so much for this wonderful demonstration. I hope you keep the videos coming. They are great to watch and learn! Love the boat too BTW... Cheers, M
Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to upload this serious piece of equipment. It is a great service you've done. Thanks also for the key comments you've made, like removing the wind vane rudder next time. Etc.
Appreciate you taking the time to share this JSD exercise. It is very useful to see it all . . . . . . . the little parts and pieces all displayed and deployed. Just seeing the size/weight of the the device in it's storage bag is VERY useful. The real world deployment from a tiller steered boat with transom mounted vane was great. Previously there were some SSCA forum threads with useful discussions of drogues (JSD, gale rider , parachute, etc) but this real life demo is destined to be a classic. THANKS!! . . . . . If you are thinking of any JSD followup videos I would suggest one on 'Drogue Attachment Points". You mention the eyebolts but don't elaborate on their use instead of transom cleats and strength and chafe issues associated with them.
+George Ray Thanks for your comments. Attaching the bridle to deck cleats can be a problem because they may not be mounted securely enough for that one in a thousand rogue wave. Also, the bridle ends require chafe-proof eye splices with thimbles and shackles and they cannot lead past chocks or other chafe points on deck. For the 8,000lb Triton I think the 1/2" eye bolts are just big enough for the loads, but horizontal chainplates on the hull would be stronger and needed on larger boats.
Wonderful. Thank you so much for this great video demonstrating the deployment of a JSD. Great to see how a 28-foot sailboat handles the situation. I sail a 28-foot also.
James you are the best. I've read everything you've put out. Just wanted to thank you for the inspiration. Gonna be taking my 29 ft Bristol on an adventure this year. Fair winds...
Thank you so much for sharing. Nothing as invaluable as a drill in preparation for the real thing and provoke new insights on the whole process for improvement or innovation for a more efficient deployment and retrieval, especially with safety in mind.
Nicely done. The issue,as you point out,is the strength of the attachment points. All force is frequently on one line of the bridle only. Confidence in the attachment is necessary and typical docking cleats are unlikely to provide that.
I'm not sure : They are typical to me : bolted thru deck with 4mm thick backing plates that spread under the deck on 2 beams, they only can rip if deck and beam rip. This possibility does exist I reckon … but at this point that would most likely be the end of the boat in these dire conditions … However, if cleats are not strongly attached so they become part of the boat and are merely appendixes, yes cleats are not recommended for tying up a morgue of any kind.
Great stuff, I owned a Triton, then a C& C Redwing, very similar.Loved your books, I now own a Tayana 37 Pilot house and love her as well. Again thanks for the books, Cheers, Pop's
Great tutorial. We have your book on board and we also love taking long walks on islands 🌴. We bought our Jordan Series of Drogue as well from Ace and have 132 cones for our 41 foot double ender. We are currently thinking about design for the attachment... We are thinking through the hawsepipes to the center mooringpost. But it might not be enough? We have as well Pearson Triton 656 on the hill:) Thanks, Helena from Sailing Liberty Crew
Good to hear from you. There are several ways you could do this. You either already have a bridle with eye splices in it where it was designed to attach to the boat's chain plates with shackles and its current length determines where you need to attach it. Or you are yet to make up the bridle and will configure it according to where you decide to attach to. Hawse pipes in bulwarks are generally immensely strong. If your existing bridle length is for attaching to chain plates on the hull then it may be too short to go through the hawse pipes to a mooring bit. In that case you could have a loop of line with an eye spliced around a thimble to connect to your bridle just outside the hawse pipes and the other ends of the lines secure to the bit or stern mooring cleats. The bit or cleats can be strengthened with larger backing plates if you doubt their strength. The sharper the bend from hawse pipe to bit, the less load is on the bit and more is on the hawse pipe. Either way there is chafe potential so you'll need a good chafe guard at the hawse pipes. If you want to discuss it further you can join the Plastic Classic Forum and post a photo of your attachments. I'm a moderator on the forum and answer questions there: plasticclassicforum.com/forum/
This was a very useful video, thanks for putting it out there. It would be helpful to see how you pack that into the anchor bag to ensure a clean and snag free deployment. It's one of those pieces of equipment you hope to never have to use but you need to have.
Thanks for your comment. It gets packed into the bag at the bridle end first but with the bridle attachment points outside the bag. It's coiled in a figure 8 to prevent tangles.
Was in that same spot of sea when I found the need to trail some warp. Had been listening to out to 20 mile offshore forecast but found it worse where I was 30 miles out. I was in 35 Morgan, also with steering vane deployed, The boat was surfing and turning coming down trailing sea. It seemed unsustainable to continue the exertion of steering corrections by over 50 self. Dragging 150 ft 5/8 line just by it self straightened the boat, and eliminated the over exertion. (imagine many Bluewater boats would of had no problem in conditions)
Fantastic video! I agree with Jonas that it is the best JSD video I have seen. I wonder if a poly-propylene trip line could be rigged for easier retrieval. Perhaps coiled tightly and duck taped (or zip tied) to the push-pit, then a second weak fastening of the bitter end. With so much line, perhaps a few tight coils would have to be made to manage it all. I also wonder what action would be best for the rudder. Initially, I would think lashing the helm fast amidships, but maybe it would be better to incorporate some shock cords to absorb some of the storm condition loads. I guess either way, the rudder is probably more protected than lying bow to a sea anchor. Thanks for posting an such an important video!
+Dawn Treader I also thought about various plans for a trip line but after all the research and then seeing how close to the surface the forward half of the drogue line is during a surge on the wave face, I think it would probably foul. It would be good to make a test anyway.
Would it make a difference if you attach the retrieval line to the bitter end of the drogue (i.e: where the weights are attached) and then haul it up with the cones facing with it's sharp end towards the boat? My reasoning is that this will reduce the drag of the drogue and therefore haul up easier. Great video, very informative!
+Sailing Ontology That would make retrieval easy but it would likely wrap around and foul the drogue while it's deployed before you even get a chance to retrieve it. A partial trip line on the end with fenders as flotation might work. Then you'd have to sail back and snatch it off the bow with a boat hook, which is a tricky thing and you may end up losing an expensive drogue.
Thank you so much for this video and for taking the time to demonstrate this technique. I have noticed that your tiller is not secure midships. It is kind of lose. I guess it is due to the "mild conditions" that you haven't tide it down tight? Cause in worse conditions there is a risk for losing the rudder by following huge seas if it is not completely tide.
I'm training and I'm a bit confused about what to do in heavy weather. I reckon I watched too many videos and I've got too much information in my head. My instructor told me that the best thing to do is to hove to and wait. At what point do you deploy the drogue? I understood that it decrease the speed.. but I've got the feeling I need to know more.
There are many variables between boat types, sea conditions, tactics, etc so you don't have one rule to follow. The drogue is typically used for extreme conditions when heaving to may be more dangerous if hit by a rogue wave. That's a rare to non-existent event for most sailors so your instructor may be right. There are other times you might use a drogue but it's an optional piece of gear for most of us. Depends on how many options you want the ability to use. Might be best to make some offshore passages to get more experience before making a final decision to add a drogue.
I like Silvia , first plan , swim for the bar , live to tell the story . what do you do when your scared ? what do you do two hours later , when ...nothing else matters ? what's the best way to slam it into the trees?
thank you , very well documented. if you dont mind sharing your toughts, the tensil forces on the lines when a wave hits the stern are noticeable, how they feel? like "full stop"? would the goal be to manage them with springs or re-adjusting the size of the drogue to "slow down" rather "stop" the boat? again many thanks
Although the bridles and lead line appear to snap taught there is no abrupt stopping of the boat, it continues to move forward slowly so I don't see it as a problem that would need any type of shock absorber.
Thank you very much for this video! Can you tell something about the subjective feel of the boat while hanging on the JD? I mean going from sailing in a wind force 6 to heaving to gives a certain kind of relaxation, how would you describe the feel compared to heave to. Does it breath calmness and confidence, easy motion?
It was a lot like the feeling of control and security felt when hove to. The boat rolled a bit but the motion was easy and steady. Relatively small and light boats like mine may heave to fine at 35 knots or brief spells of higher but above that or more prolonged periods I'd feel more secure and comfortable with the drogue. Good to have both options available.
Loved the demonstration. I've watched where they say that it is better to get the wind vanes rudder out of the water when deploying the drogue to prevent fouling. So this takes away the strong help you get with the steering and having to rely on either steering manually or using the autopilot which is less reliable in these types of weather conditions?
Yes it is safer for the windvane to pull the rudder up first and next time I'll do that. If you prepare the drogue first then disengage the windvane and swing up the rudder then the crew can steer for the short time it takes to deploy the drogue or if alone let the boat lie ahull or heave to to deploy. Since it is only for a minute or two there should be no problem. And since the deployed drogue controls the course, no need for any steering once it's out.
The way you fix the drogue system to the transom focuses a lot of potentially dangerous forces in two quite small areas. I'd be concerned that under more violent conditions with powerful jolts over an extended period the hull could weaken and break. However if you've consulted a marine engineer and/or a stress engineer perhaps the fittings are more robust than they look. Good video by the way.
+umvhu I had similar concerns but decided 1/2" stainless u-bolts backed up inside with fiberglass reinforcement would be sufficient for my size boat. Keep in mind that I have a watertight lazarette so worst that happens is a one in a million rogue wave rips out or breaks the u-bolts. Not good but at least the bilge wouldn't fill with water and boat could carry on and repairs made later.The corner where the transom, hull, and deck meet is a natural strong point. I did point out in the early part of the video that another option is to use heavy horizontal chain plates on the hull, which would be stronger, and is what I'm doing now on a Alberg 30. I'd recommend most people use chain plates instead if they have any doubts.
atomvoyager You reflect my thoughts, chainplates of say 18 inches long and maybe 2 inches wide by 1/8 inch thick forming a bonded sandwich would dissipate forces over a larger area and not being in straight pull against the surfaces creates much greater security. Have a great time on the water.
+umvhu 1/8" may be strong enough for a small boat like mine, but even so, I like to use thicker stock and not worry about a little crevice corrosion over time or angled cyclic loading issues. The ones I'm making now for the Alberg 30 are 1/4" x 2" x 15" with four 3/8 bolts. I'm also making a set for a 45' catamaran that are 3/8" x 2" x 24".
+atomvoyager Ok, my engineering knowledge is getting out of date, thicker stainless steels were difficult to make therefore very expensive. But my thought was the focused loading of the boat hull. What are the possibilities of using a bungee type rope as a shock absorber?
+umvhu The line has enough stretch and 1/4 stainless flat bar is not so expensive. There are some websites on the JSD where you can research the details.
Thanks for filming and posting this video ... it's spot on for anyone considering a JSD. You mentioned in the video that next time you might try a retrieval line direct to the anchor windlass, allowing the bridle to be un-shackled (so the Bow faces the wind during retrieval) ... would you pre-attach the retrieval line to where the bridle joins the leader? If you did retrieve with the Bow pointing to windward (in similar wind/wave conditions) how concerned would you be about rudder damage?
+SV Nimbus Yes, next time I thought I'd pre-attach a retrieval line direct to the bridle/leader connection and then lead it outside to the anchor roller and windlass for retrieval. Because it has less drag than a parachute anchor I'd expect the boat to be lying ahull if no sail is up without much danger to the rudder. Conditions during retrieval should be mild enough that you could heave-to and reduce the rolling or chance of getting rolled by a rogue wave. Also, bringing it in should go more quickly so you won't be exposed that long. Not sure if the wide angle through the anchor roller would be a problem though and if the cones will pass easily around the windlass drum so another test is needed.
+atomvoyager Being in the heave-to position during retrieval sounds really good to me, my boat has a long keel so sits well like this. Retrieving without swapping lines/rolling hitches does seem much simpler/quicker especially solo so I'd be really interested to find out how you get on with any future trials, and whether the cones do allow the windlass to be used directly on the JSD. I don't have enough fairlead on my bow roller either so might need to make/fit something like this www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stainless-Steel-Fairlead-with-Roller-8-Marine-Grade-316-Boat-Sailing-FAIRRL205-/281856334259?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368 on the toe rails at the Bow. I guess having a vertical axis anchor windlass/winch would be perfect on its own, if mounted forward enough? or even a sturdier version of www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Folbe-Open-Block-Pulley-Pull-Crab-Pot-Lobster-Trap-Open-Snatch-USA-F008-/231466574534 held centrally on the fore-deck.
All my research indicates that a drone off the bow with a bridle back to the rear off the side facing the waves when heaving to and therefore creating the slick zone is the penultimate option.
12:22 shows the functionality of the JSD in quite dramatic fashion. That's a pretty gnarly looking white cap that otherwise would have taken this boat for a serious ride.
+mikeob have a read of Roger Taylors first MingMing books, he describes a JSD deployment in anger and it performed brilliantly, according to the description, in survival conditions. the drogue was lost, by his own admission, because of crew error. Taylor then sat out the rest of the storm with a bulk bag as a replacement, much much more uncomfortably.
I haven't used it since the day of the test but yes it put an immediate brake on the boat trying to surge forward down the waves. From all reports it also does that in more severe conditions.
@@atomvoyager that’s cool, because it’s easy to surf down a wave too fast, get sideways to the waves, and do a full on broach with a fin keel sailboat.
+John Beasley About a year ago I purchased the following kit from Ace Sailmakers. Prices may have gone up slightly since then: 82 4 oz Dacron , white , Cones, discounted to $5 per= $410. 210' Novatech 1/2" nylon double braid with 2 soft eyes with chafe sleeve in eyes, one cone installed, cones positions marked. $265. 1/2" x 15' finished Novatech nylon double braid with 2 splices, one soft eye w chafe sleeve in eye , other end, boat end, solid stainless thimbles ( recommend stainless as solid galvanized thimble bit bulkier/shackle needed bigger). $44 for line and splices, plus $12 discounted thimble= $56 per x 2 = $112. shipping $40 Total $827 with shipping. Plus about $70 for cost of lead weights and deployment bag but you can use any cheap bag and an old piece of chain as well. You can sew your own cones in a kit from Sailrite or make it all yourself to save some money but it's a very tedious job. Bigger boats usually use at least 100 cones.
Two questions:1. What happened to the anchor bag the drogue was stored in? It looked like it got pulled loose and lost.2. Why not deploy the drogue from the bow, to keep the boat pointed into the oncoming waves and wind?
The bag was attached to the deck and we still have it. This type drogue is designed to work from the stern and allow the boat's bow to hold downwind as it drifts at 2-3 knots. Other drogues or para-anchors are designed to attach from the bow. They have other issues such as the bow tending to fall off the wind or the boat get thrown backwards on its vulnerable rudder, particularly during rogue waves. Each system has its pluses and minuses.
Possibly, but 6mm line is hard to handle under any load and others have claimed that a full length trip line doesn't work because it fouls and wraps itself around the drogue line. Might be worth a test though.
yes thanks ! good works ! ok I watched the lines pop and whip , I thought the weight would sink it , how deep is the far end ? oh are you crazy ? to be honest ...I need more data , how do you know it's tied to the boat ,exactly best . 3-5 seconds of boring hardware . and for contrast same hardware on a industrial ship.
What a great video! Thanks for posting. I notice you have a 28' atom and you said these mild conditions. I'm little more than an armchair sailor, but 30 knotts and those waves were scary to me. When you went under sail, did you just use the small storm sail only and no main? (I have so much to learn).
We used the triple reefed main and storm jib together to drive the boat to windward then just the jib alone off the wind. If the wind increased we could drop the main entirely going to windward and use a very small storm trysail in its place but it is less efficient than the triple reefed main. Conditions weren't exactly mild that day but were mild in the context of needing to use a drogue.
extremely good and descriptive video of a series drogue. How would you compare this to being hove to? Which would you prefer? thank you again for heading offshore " on purpose" to shoot this video!
+Cruiser2B Thanks. When the wind and seas get up there comes a point when being hove to puts too much stress on the boat and rigging. I would normally heave to in moderate gale conditions and then deploy the drogue in storm force winds where a rogue wave could roll the boat.
It could be deployed and retrieved from the bow but when riding to the drogue it needs to be attached to the stern as explained here: jordanseriesdrogue.com/ For riding to a drag device from the bow you would want something like the para-tech sea anchor instead.
Because you have more than average experience, offshore in several/many different bodies of water, and in a variety of boats but particularly the Carl Alberg Triton 28 , . . . . It occurs to me to ask, on what past occasions have you had to think about/use drogues, what different drogues have you used in the past, and how did the various different drogues work and what leads you now to use the JSD?
+George Ray By good passage planning (sailing the right route in the right season) I've managed to avoid a lot of prolonged storm force winds. If winds are under 40 knots then heaving to or running under bare poles has worked for me in places like the South African cape and Indian Ocean. Shorter duration squalls of stronger winds also don't require a drogue because there isn't enough time for seas to build too high. I did test and carry a 15' diameter para-anchor for years but never used it seriously and got rid of it. I like the different concept of how the JSD works and think it has some advantages.
I was busy at the time and didn't get around to it. Next time I'll lash the tiller amidship. The windvane was not really steering anyway since the drogue was in control of our course at about 2 knots boat speed.
Some rudder questions: As I viewed the video I noticed that when you had disconnected the wind vane and the drogue was steering the boat the tiller was moving freely port to starboard and back again. This would mean that the rudder was moving freely with the current flowing past the boat from aft. My thought is that the rudder could strike its maximum angle randomly and possibly with significant force. Would there be a threat to damaging the rudder in this situation? Would locking it in place with chain or dampening it with a bungee arrangement of sorts reduce this risk if it is there?
I left the self-steering engaged as an experiment. The boat speed was slowed to about 2 knots under drogue so the apparent wind shifts on the wind blade allowed the vane's rudder and the tiller to move side to side. The arresting effect of the drogue meant that the shifting tiller had little effect. Next time, I will deploy the drogue with the vane rudder pulled up out of the way and lash the tiller amidships.
I've been in storms at sea in Gulf of Alaska, but not on a sailboat. We never needed to throw out any kind of brake though, fortunately. I’m just wondering why there is a need for multiple drogues as opposed to one larger sea anchor? There must be quite an advantage to the series method to justify the complexity.
My understanding is that the drag is more evenly applied in a moderate amount. You can read more at these links: www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pdf/jordanseriesdrogue.pdf www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/parachute-anchor-vs-series-drogue-vs-tires-thoughts-57811.html
Multiple drogues mean that the forces are averaged along the length of the device. The currents within the waves can't move the device, averaging out the drag on the boat.
I've never heard of the cones collapsing. Since they are many individual cones with the rode in the center of each it doesn't seem to be a problem. Yes, the storm jib steadies the boat and reduces the rolling.
The only way to keep the bow truly upwind is to use a large parachute type sea anchor. Even then you risk having the boat surge back and break it's rudder. Some people prefer the parachute off the bow, others like letting the boat move 2-3 knots downwind with the series drogue off the stern. You do need to have a strong companionway to stand up to a breaking wave though.
Very educational. Since topic is important for me and not many information on the RUclips, may I ask you the few questions by email. I don't wanna overload comments with that. Thank you
You can email me through the contact link at atomvoyages.com. By the way, I'm making a lighter, more compact small boat version of the drogue using dyneema line and will put up another video eventually showing its construction details.
When to heave to or run and when to use this method with this size of boat?I'd be worried in heavier wave conditions that faster waves would swamp the stern with drogue..Any thoughts?
+Mike Ob On a small boat the sails can only handle so much wind before the boat is overpowered even when hove to. It's true the cockpit and companionway are vulnerable to breaking seas riding to a drogue, so the cockpit lockers need to be nearly watertight with gasketed, latched lids and the companionway drop boards must be strong. If you ride to a parachute sea anchor off the bow you could fall back and break your rudder or the bow could fall off when hit by a rogue wave and cause more destruction. With a drogue the stern normally rises to the seas such that you will not likely get solid water flooding the cockpit although that could happen. If it does it will spill out as the boat rolls and the rest drain away. Read more about the issue at: jordanseriesdrogue.com/
Hi why not run another line with the main line that runs straight down to the end if the drogue run. If this is free running then you can pull that in and it will reverse the cones and will allow all of the cones to be pulled in quickly;)
Being that I don't have an anchor windlass can I use a cockpit winch to retrieve the drogue? Also, can deck cleats be used as anchor points or is there an issue with chafing?
The two issues with using standard stern mooring cleats is chafe and breaking the small cleat bolts or pulling them thru the deck when hit by a large wave. You can use a cockpit winch in moderate conditions but it would require a lot of effort and risking pulling the winches out of the deck in high seas. People have managed to use drogues successfully with stern cleats and cockpit winches but there is always the risk that they aren't up to the loads in extreme conditions. It would be rare that you encountered those extremes so maybe it's worth the small risk to you.
Curious as to why you didn't follow Donald Jordan's recommendation of using 35 lbs of weight? Sometimes 50 lbs is required. It was clear the bridle was slackening which in rough seas could be a problem. The video looks good, just concerned about incorrect recommendations as proper weight placement is important.
You can find different weight recommendations but on the following link they specified 15-25lb: www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_12.htm You are probably right that more is better, and I'll probably upgrade it to 15-20 lbs for actual storm use but my thought was to have a drogue that is more easy to store on a small boat, and easy to deploy and retrieve and will still do the job I require, even though it may not work in a truly enormous rogue wave strike. For example, do you attempt to design a drogue to save you on a 30-foot boat from a 40-foot breaking wave that you will never encounter, if that is even possible to do, or a 30' wave, or where do you draw the line and say it's still reasonable protection?
The Jordan Series drogue had the highest failure rate of any device tested by the USCG until the 35 to 50 lbs of weight was added. Not sure why a company selling the Series drogue would not stick with the USCG test results? I believe Matt at www.sailrite.com/ sells the series drogue and adheres to USCG recommendations of 35 to 50 lbs. "Where do you draw the line" is something to consider. Thanks.
Thank you for this great demonstration! How are the 1/2" U-bolts backed up on the transom? Also your tiller seemed to be whipping around quit a bit. Would you ever lash down the tiller to keep it centered when the JSD is deployed? Please keep the vids coming very much appreciated!!
+Edward Jones Even though they are mounted through a strong area close to where the transom joins the hull I added some fiberglass and aluminum backing plates. Horizontal chainplates would be even stronger. I was preoccupied with other things on this brief test but would lash the tiller amidships next time.
Same way as in the video - brute force with the windlass, although at some point that won't be manageable so in most cases you would wait until the storm has moderated before retrieving.
That may be true on some boats in some situations. The Pardey's book Storm Tactics recommends heaving to with a sea anchor deployed at an angle off the bow. But let's say on a long passage a 40 knot wind is blowing towards your destination. You probably want to continue making progress moving around 2 kt with a JSD. And storms don't always shut off right away and that 40 kt storm may blow at 30 kt for awhile and you can just sit tight and continue making some 50 miles per day. On the other hand if you have a lee shore ahead then you would want to stop forward movement as much as possible and then the sea anchor would be better. It would be good to have both options.
Usually the stern mooring cleats are a stronger mounting location than direct to winches so I'd check the backing plates and strengthen if needed. An advantage to the U-bolts or chain plates attachment is that you can attach with an eye splice, thimble and shackle to reduce chafe at that point.
Surely this is a drogue/warp not a true sea anchor. If the waves were cresting behind it would be prudent to deploy it from the bow and keep your nose to the waves. Look forward to your follow up in big seas.
@mattc1664 absolutely not. Read the USCG reports and trials - they're linked on the JSD website. The JSD is towed astern. It significantly slows the boat and keeps it from racing down waves and pitchpoling.
Jumped to 6:00 mark and switched off immediately! The sight of a boom swaying makes me so angry, from this to on moorings and everywhere else, these people don’t deserve a boat!
Very interesting demo. Would this work on my 8M Catalac Catamaran? or am I better off just running downwind with a storm jib? Seems like a lot of effort to retrieve.
+Snake Plisken A drogue should work on your catamaran provided you have strong chafe-proof attachment points and the cockpit area and companionway are not prone to flooding the cabin if a wave lands aboard. When conditions are too severe to run downwind under storm jib or bare poles because you fear a broach or even pitchpoling then the drogue could be a safer choice. If the storm passes and winds are light when you retrieve the drogue it will come in a lot easier. But a JSD is not something you use too often anyway.
Sr. Does it have a specific feature of the outboard shaft? I mean the column of the engine is bigger than the normal ones? I have a " normal" 6.5hp.... it seems yours have a large column which reach the water easier.
My outboard is an extra-long shaft (25-inch). Standard for a dinghy is short shaft. At a minimum you want a 20" long shaft but the extra 25" will give better performance in waves without the prop sucking air.
+John Beasley Yes, or even a pitchpole in a freak rogue wave. I don't have experience with the gale rider but the test results at the end of the following video by the para-anchor people showed the gale rider had much lower drag. The series drogue also has a different concept which is explained at: jordanseriesdrogue.com/
never being in a Gale myself I can't what you did was bad but from what I heard bair pole is a bad idea. you have no control and more likely to be rolled. you might want to check out documentary on the 1979 fast net race, as well as storm tactics cape horn tested. they example the prius and cons of different tactics not so much on the gear. I really like the idea of many cones.
Great but once it is deployed you can not shorten the drogue during the storm. Probably better to have a drogue in a bight at least it can be winched in if need be.
+chris lacock Yes, the JSD has some limitations but as you can see in the video it is not a big problem to retrieve it in 35 knots and even more after you practice your technique. If you had a drogue in a bight then it would be bulky and more costly. If you used it with a bridle it would probably twist up and become ineffective. If used without a bridle it would load only one corner of the boat and possibly foul anyway. Similar issues as a trip line.
atomvoyager Well mate it's true everything has limitations, however I have used a drogue in a bight 28mm polypropylene about 70m in total. This was on a 9.5m (Rival 31) in a gale which blew up to storm 10 for 3 days in Biscay, this is my only experience with drogues (and storms!) and the main thing I learned was that it was very effective given sufficient searoom ! - The problem was that the sea state did not stay the same ie. the wave length changed. and so what worked and gave steerage suddenly stopped working, then later I found it worked again. After the experience I came to the conclusion that if I could have changed the length of the drogue it would 'grip' the changing waves and allow me keep stern to the seas. As you say this is quite a bulky bit of kit, however there was no way I could have gone forward in those conditions to try winch in the jordan drougue as you did in the vid. Of course every boat is also very different Hope my little experience helps you or others.
atomvoyager PS I also added fenders and stuff to the bight (including a 35lb CQR !) in an attempt to make the drogue bite. These would be lost if you release one end to recover/change the length.
Forgive me... but there are lots of red-flags for me here (I'll start small): 1. You need to stow your winch handles. 2. Before deploying the drogue you were way over-powered, sailing up wind. 3. Your spray dodger is a massive liability in 40kts, and should have been stowed (especially if there are breaking seas) 4. Yes, you should run-bare poles at the time you deploy your drogue, otherwise the 'snatch' (shock load) on the eyelets could rip them out of your hull, leaving massive holes in your boat. Then you should run the storm jib to ensure your bow stays downwind (I saw your boat veering from time to time, and this was weather-helm caused by your spray-dodger) 5. If the waves and wind are at different angles then you should run the droge more off the opposite stern quarter to the wave direction. This will bring your boat more perpendicular to the waves and you'll broach less. 6. If it slowed you to only 2kts then your drogue is too big for your boat. You should still aim for c.5kts. I'd suggest losing 50-60ft off the end of your series. 7. Rig up a trip line to the far-end of the drogue... Simple 8mm line, that you can pull on that collapses the little cones from the far-end and makes them a LOT easier to pull in. A young guy should be able to pull that in by hand.
Thanks for your comments. Most of what are red flags to you are just different practice for different sailors on different boats. Keep in mind this was just a test of short duration and so things would be done differently in a different situation: 1. Yes, it's common practice for most sailors to stow their winch handles. I always leave a winch handle in one of the winches at the mast and one on a cockpit winch and not just because I'm lazy. I find it far safer to not have to carry a winch handle around when going forward trying not to get flung off the boat and storage options at the mast makes for too much clutter. In two circumnavigations I haven't lost a handle this way yet so that is not an issue. 2. This is a tender, low freeboard, long keel 28-foot Pearson Triton and it needs to put the rail under in these conditions to reduce leeway. I don't like pushing the boat that hard either but in this case I had to stay hard on the wind at a good speed to avoid shoals close to leeward. If you sail a bigger, high freeboard boat then of course you would sail with less heeling. 3. The dodger was up because it is relatively low profile and not a problem in the mild conditions that day. But yes, it's better to stow it for longer runs in bigger seas. 4. Launching the drogue with bare poles is better practice but not so much for the reason you state. It's far safer to deploy at slow speed so there is less chance of damage from a snagged or tangled line as it pays out under load. The biggest danger there I see is getting a line wrapped around yourself. The drogue attachment points are designed to withstand the shock load of a rogue wave so the load from the storm jib was several times less than that. 5. Running the drogue bridle so it is somehow adjustable to winds that shift after building a big sea is an interesting idea since that can be a problem. 6. This drogue is already smaller than the designer recommended for this size boat. Different types of drogues for different purposes can use varying cones. If you want to keep the boat moving faster then you don't have good resistance to pitchpoling. You can design for one or the other, but not both. 7. Yes, it would be ideal to have a trip line but several people, including the designer have concluded that a trip line will get wrapped up and foul on the drogue and is not recommended. Perhaps a partial trip line with float on the end would work but the float would have to be large not to sink from the weight on the drogue and pulling a large float fast through the water could be a problem. Then you'd have to trust that you could cast it all off and beat back upwind to pick it up without losing a very expensive piece of gear. Often the wind after a storm does not die down that much and you want to get underway in say 30 knots and large seas and that makes a partial trip line impractical for most of us.
That's possible but can't be such a good way to lose them since I haven't lost one like that in 40 years of sailing. A better way to lose them on a small boat in rough seas is to fuss with carrying them around or trying to get them in and out of a winch handle pocket.
Thanks for doing a really useful JSD deploy/ retrieve video in some fairly snotty weather.
James, I have read both your books and have enjoyed them immensely. I really like your take on life, work, and sailing. Keep up the good work. Ken in Orlando
I like your design for the drogue. On our Pearson Triton we used a 24 inch sea anchor on 200 feet of half inch nylon line with a swivel at the sea anchor. In a big storm off the Oregon coast the load was so great it parted the line in the middle. After that we either ran under bare poles or hove-to. Loved our Triton to the south Pacific and back.
Thank you so much for this wonderful demonstration. I hope you keep the videos coming. They are great to watch and learn!
Love the boat too BTW...
Cheers,
M
Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to upload this serious piece of equipment. It is a great service you've done. Thanks also for the key comments you've made, like removing the wind vane rudder next time. Etc.
Appreciate you taking the time to share this JSD exercise. It is very useful to see it all . . . . . . . the little parts and pieces all displayed and deployed. Just seeing the size/weight of the the device in it's storage bag is VERY useful. The real world deployment from a tiller steered boat with transom mounted vane was great. Previously there were some SSCA forum threads with useful discussions of drogues (JSD, gale rider , parachute, etc) but this real life demo is destined to be a classic. THANKS!! . . . . . If you are thinking of any JSD followup videos I would suggest one on 'Drogue Attachment Points". You mention the eyebolts but don't elaborate on their use instead of transom cleats and strength and chafe issues associated with them.
+George Ray Thanks for your comments. Attaching the bridle to deck cleats can be a problem because they may not be mounted securely enough for that one in a thousand rogue wave. Also, the bridle ends require chafe-proof eye splices with thimbles and shackles and they cannot lead past chocks or other chafe points on deck. For the 8,000lb Triton I think the 1/2" eye bolts are just big enough for the loads, but horizontal chainplates on the hull would be stronger and needed on larger boats.
A superb test and demonstration.
Wonderful. Thank you so much for this great video demonstrating the deployment of a JSD. Great to see how a 28-foot sailboat handles the situation. I sail a 28-foot also.
James you are the best. I've read everything you've put out. Just wanted to thank you for the inspiration. Gonna be taking my 29 ft Bristol on an adventure this year. Fair winds...
One of the more intresting and useful videos on drogue use.
Thanks for doing the video. Best wishes for happy sailing. Ray
Very good illustration on how to deploy in a real life situation
Thank you so much for sharing. Nothing as invaluable as a drill in preparation for the real thing and provoke new insights on the whole process for improvement or innovation for a more efficient deployment and retrieval, especially with safety in mind.
Really informative, thanks. A lot of food for thought in those 15 minutes.
Very cool setup and nice to see how a drogue works in real conditions. Btw, you guys are braver than us going out in those conditions.
Nicely done. The issue,as you point out,is the strength of the attachment points. All force is frequently on one line of the bridle only. Confidence in the attachment is necessary and typical docking cleats are unlikely to provide that.
You should see how I fixed my typical docking cleats on my boat and you will reassess your comment !!!…
chers !
LOL
@@vincent7520 Those would not be typical then.
I'm not sure : They are typical to me : bolted thru deck with 4mm thick backing plates that spread under the deck on 2 beams, they only can rip if deck and beam rip. This possibility does exist I reckon … but at this point that would most likely be the end of the boat in these dire conditions …
However, if cleats are not strongly attached so they become part of the boat and are merely appendixes, yes cleats are not recommended for tying up a morgue of any kind.
Great stuff, I owned a Triton, then a C& C Redwing, very similar.Loved your books, I now own a Tayana 37 Pilot house and love her as well. Again thanks for the books, Cheers,
Pop's
What a heroic effort to make a great video...well done.
A very valuable resource for offshore sailors - thanks a lot for sharing.
Great tutorial. We have your book on board and we also love taking long walks on islands 🌴. We bought our Jordan Series of Drogue as well from Ace and have 132 cones for our 41 foot double ender. We are currently thinking about design for the attachment... We are thinking through the hawsepipes to the center mooringpost. But it might not be enough? We have as well Pearson Triton 656 on the hill:) Thanks, Helena from Sailing Liberty Crew
Good to hear from you. There are several ways you could do this. You either already have a bridle with eye splices in it where it was designed to attach to the boat's chain plates with shackles and its current length determines where you need to attach it. Or you are yet to make up the bridle and will configure it according to where you decide to attach to. Hawse pipes in bulwarks are generally immensely strong. If your existing bridle length is for attaching to chain plates on the hull then it may be too short to go through the hawse pipes to a mooring bit. In that case you could have a loop of line with an eye spliced around a thimble to connect to your bridle just outside the hawse pipes and the other ends of the lines secure to the bit or stern mooring cleats. The bit or cleats can be strengthened with larger backing plates if you doubt their strength. The sharper the bend from hawse pipe to bit, the less load is on the bit and more is on the hawse pipe. Either way there is chafe potential so you'll need a good chafe guard at the hawse pipes. If you want to discuss it further you can join the Plastic Classic Forum and post a photo of your attachments. I'm a moderator on the forum and answer questions there: plasticclassicforum.com/forum/
good informative info on this drogue and bridle.
lucky you getting a sail maker to make yours!
Honest info on retrival time.
fair winds.
This was a very useful video, thanks for putting it out there. It would be helpful to see how you pack that into the anchor bag to ensure a clean and snag free deployment. It's one of those pieces of equipment you hope to never have to use but you need to have.
Thanks for your comment. It gets packed into the bag at the bridle end first but with the bridle attachment points outside the bag. It's coiled in a figure 8 to prevent tangles.
Was in that same spot of sea when I found the need to trail some warp. Had been listening to out to 20 mile offshore forecast but found it worse where I was 30 miles out. I was in 35 Morgan, also with steering vane deployed, The boat was surfing and turning coming down trailing sea. It seemed unsustainable to continue the exertion of steering corrections by over 50 self. Dragging 150 ft 5/8 line just by it self straightened the boat, and eliminated the over exertion. (imagine many Bluewater boats would of had no problem in conditions)
Thanks for this demonstration
Fascinating. Thank you for your efforts.
Many thanks for showing that. I always wondered how a drogue works.
Fantastic video! I agree with Jonas that it is the best JSD video I have seen. I wonder if a poly-propylene trip line could be rigged for easier retrieval. Perhaps coiled tightly and duck taped (or zip tied) to the push-pit, then a second weak fastening of the bitter end. With so much line, perhaps a few tight coils would have to be made to manage it all.
I also wonder what action would be best for the rudder. Initially, I would think lashing the helm fast amidships, but maybe it would be better to incorporate some shock cords to absorb some of the storm condition loads. I guess either way, the rudder is probably more protected than lying bow to a sea anchor.
Thanks for posting an such an important video!
+Dawn Treader I also thought about various plans for a trip line but after all the research and then seeing how close to the surface the forward half of the drogue line is during a surge on the wave face, I think it would probably foul. It would be good to make a test anyway.
Very informative video here!! Thanks for sharing!!
Would it make a difference if you attach the retrieval line to the bitter end of the drogue (i.e: where the weights are attached) and then haul it up with the cones facing with it's sharp end towards the boat? My reasoning is that this will reduce the drag of the drogue and therefore haul up easier.
Great video, very informative!
+Sailing Ontology That would make retrieval easy but it would likely wrap around and foul the drogue while it's deployed before you even get a chance to retrieve it. A partial trip line on the end with fenders as flotation might work. Then you'd have to sail back and snatch it off the bow with a boat hook, which is a tricky thing and you may end up losing an expensive drogue.
Thank you so much for this video and for taking the time to demonstrate this technique. I have noticed that your tiller is not secure midships. It is kind of lose. I guess it is due to the "mild conditions" that you haven't tide it down tight? Cause in worse conditions there is a risk for losing the rudder by following huge seas if it is not completely tide.
Yes I left it connected to the windvane as a test but would lash it amidships next time.
I'm training and I'm a bit confused about what to do in heavy weather. I reckon I watched too many videos and I've got too much information in my head. My instructor told me that the best thing to do is to hove to and wait. At what point do you deploy the drogue? I understood that it decrease the speed.. but I've got the feeling I need to know more.
There are many variables between boat types, sea conditions, tactics, etc so you don't have one rule to follow. The drogue is typically used for extreme conditions when heaving to may be more dangerous if hit by a rogue wave. That's a rare to non-existent event for most sailors so your instructor may be right. There are other times you might use a drogue but it's an optional piece of gear for most of us. Depends on how many options you want the ability to use. Might be best to make some offshore passages to get more experience before making a final decision to add a drogue.
Crystal clear. Thank you :)
I like Silvia , first plan , swim for the bar , live to tell the story . what do you do when your scared ? what do you do two hours later , when ...nothing else matters ? what's the best way to slam it into the trees?
@@mikestevens8012 great response, Mike. We think so much alike. Like, when should I take the time to change my underwear (-:
Thanks for the excellent video. Would it be easier to retrieve the drogue by pulling a second line attached to its tip?
It would be much easier but it has been reported that the drogue and retrieval line rotate and tangle.
Poor Atom is probably thinking "can I retire already?"
Thank you for sharing
thank you , very well documented. if you dont mind sharing your toughts, the tensil forces on the lines when a wave hits the stern are noticeable, how they feel? like "full stop"? would the goal be to manage them with springs or re-adjusting the size of the drogue to "slow down" rather "stop" the boat? again many thanks
Although the bridles and lead line appear to snap taught there is no abrupt stopping of the boat, it continues to move forward slowly so I don't see it as a problem that would need any type of shock absorber.
Thank you very much for this video! Can you tell something about the subjective feel of the boat while hanging on the JD? I mean going from sailing in a wind force 6 to heaving to gives a certain kind of relaxation, how would you describe the feel compared to heave to. Does it breath calmness and confidence, easy motion?
It was a lot like the feeling of control and security felt when hove to. The boat rolled a bit but the motion was easy and steady. Relatively small and light boats like mine may heave to fine at 35 knots or brief spells of higher but above that or more prolonged periods I'd feel more secure and comfortable with the drogue. Good to have both options available.
Loved the demonstration. I've watched where they say that it is better to get the wind vanes rudder out of the water when deploying the drogue to prevent fouling. So this takes away the strong help you get with the steering and having to rely on either steering manually or using the autopilot which is less reliable in these types of weather conditions?
Yes it is safer for the windvane to pull the rudder up first and next time I'll do that. If you prepare the drogue first then disengage the windvane and swing up the rudder then the crew can steer for the short time it takes to deploy the drogue or if alone let the boat lie ahull or heave to to deploy. Since it is only for a minute or two there should be no problem. And since the deployed drogue controls the course, no need for any steering once it's out.
Just Heave To !! especially at Night. 40 kts / F8 is still sailing weather !!
Just what I needed to see, THANKS
Is this the same Atom from the atomvoyager site? If so I love it and it helped me choose my first sailboat.
Yes, the same boat.
The way you fix the drogue system to the transom focuses a lot of potentially dangerous forces in two quite small areas. I'd be concerned that under more violent conditions with powerful jolts over an extended period the hull could weaken and break. However if you've consulted a marine engineer and/or a stress engineer perhaps the fittings are more robust than they look. Good video by the way.
+umvhu I had similar concerns but decided 1/2" stainless u-bolts backed up inside with fiberglass reinforcement would be sufficient for my size boat. Keep in mind that I have a watertight lazarette so worst that happens is a one in a million rogue wave rips out or breaks the u-bolts. Not good but at least the bilge wouldn't fill with water and boat could carry on and repairs made later.The corner where the transom, hull, and deck meet is a natural strong point. I did point out in the early part of the video that another option is to use heavy horizontal chain plates on the hull, which would be stronger, and is what I'm doing now on a Alberg 30. I'd recommend most people use chain plates instead if they have any doubts.
atomvoyager You reflect my thoughts, chainplates of say 18 inches long and maybe 2 inches wide by 1/8 inch thick forming a bonded sandwich would dissipate forces over a larger area and not being in straight pull against the surfaces creates much greater security. Have a great time on the water.
+umvhu 1/8" may be strong enough for a small boat like mine, but even so, I like to use thicker stock and not worry about a little crevice corrosion over time or angled cyclic loading issues. The ones I'm making now for the Alberg 30 are 1/4" x 2" x 15" with four 3/8 bolts. I'm also making a set for a 45' catamaran that are 3/8" x 2" x 24".
+atomvoyager Ok, my engineering knowledge is getting out of date, thicker stainless steels were difficult to make therefore very expensive. But my thought was the focused loading of the boat hull. What are the possibilities of using a bungee type rope as a shock absorber?
+umvhu The line has enough stretch and 1/4 stainless flat bar is not so expensive. There are some websites on the JSD where you can research the details.
Thanks for filming and posting this video ... it's spot on for anyone considering a JSD.
You mentioned in the video that next time you might try a retrieval line direct to the anchor windlass, allowing the bridle to be un-shackled (so the Bow faces the wind during retrieval) ... would you pre-attach the retrieval line to where the bridle joins the leader?
If you did retrieve with the Bow pointing to windward (in similar wind/wave conditions) how concerned would you be about rudder damage?
+SV Nimbus Yes, next time I thought I'd pre-attach a retrieval line direct to the bridle/leader connection and then lead it outside to the anchor roller and windlass for retrieval. Because it has less drag than a parachute anchor I'd expect the boat to be lying ahull if no sail is up without much danger to the rudder. Conditions during retrieval should be mild enough that you could heave-to and reduce the rolling or chance of getting rolled by a rogue wave. Also, bringing it in should go more quickly so you won't be exposed that long. Not sure if the wide angle through the anchor roller would be a problem though and if the cones will pass easily around the windlass drum so another test is needed.
+atomvoyager Being in the heave-to position during retrieval sounds really good to me, my boat has a long keel so sits well like this. Retrieving without swapping lines/rolling hitches does seem much simpler/quicker especially solo so I'd be really interested to find out how you get on with any future trials, and whether the cones do allow the windlass to be used directly on the JSD.
I don't have enough fairlead on my bow roller either so might need to make/fit something like this www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stainless-Steel-Fairlead-with-Roller-8-Marine-Grade-316-Boat-Sailing-FAIRRL205-/281856334259?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368 on the toe rails at the Bow.
I guess having a vertical axis anchor windlass/winch would be perfect on its own, if mounted forward enough? or even a sturdier version of www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Folbe-Open-Block-Pulley-Pull-Crab-Pot-Lobster-Trap-Open-Snatch-USA-F008-/231466574534 held centrally on the fore-deck.
All my research indicates that a drone off the bow with a bridle back to the rear off the side facing the waves when heaving to and therefore creating the slick zone is the penultimate option.
12:22 shows the functionality of the JSD in quite dramatic fashion. That's a pretty gnarly looking white cap that otherwise would have taken this boat for a serious ride.
Yes, it's unusual to see waves regularly toppling over their fronts offshore. I wonder if there was current against the swell direction.
+mikeob have a read of Roger Taylors first MingMing books, he describes a JSD deployment in anger and it performed brilliantly, according to the description, in survival conditions. the drogue was lost, by his own admission, because of crew error. Taylor then sat out the rest of the storm with a bulk bag as a replacement, much much more uncomfortably.
Did you find that the drogue kept you from surfing down waves that were hitting you from astern?
I haven't used it since the day of the test but yes it put an immediate brake on the boat trying to surge forward down the waves. From all reports it also does that in more severe conditions.
@@atomvoyager that’s cool, because it’s easy to surf down a wave too fast, get sideways to the waves, and do a full on broach with a fin keel sailboat.
how much would it cost to build a system like that?
+John Beasley About a year ago I purchased the following kit from Ace Sailmakers. Prices may have gone up slightly since then:
82 4 oz Dacron , white , Cones, discounted to $5 per= $410. 210' Novatech 1/2" nylon double braid with 2 soft eyes with chafe sleeve in eyes, one cone installed, cones positions marked. $265. 1/2" x 15' finished Novatech nylon double braid with 2 splices, one soft eye w chafe sleeve in eye , other end, boat end, solid stainless thimbles ( recommend stainless as solid galvanized thimble bit bulkier/shackle needed bigger). $44 for line and splices, plus $12 discounted thimble= $56 per x 2 = $112. shipping $40 Total $827 with shipping. Plus about $70 for cost of lead weights and deployment bag but you can use any cheap bag and an old piece of chain as well.
You can sew your own cones in a kit from Sailrite or make it all yourself to save some money but it's a very tedious job. Bigger boats usually use at least 100 cones.
Two questions:1. What happened to the anchor bag the drogue was stored in? It looked like it got pulled loose and lost.2. Why not deploy the drogue from the bow, to keep the boat pointed into the oncoming waves and wind?
The bag was attached to the deck and we still have it. This type drogue is designed to work from the stern and allow the boat's bow to hold downwind as it drifts at 2-3 knots. Other drogues or para-anchors are designed to attach from the bow. They have other issues such as the bow tending to fall off the wind or the boat get thrown backwards on its vulnerable rudder, particularly during rogue waves. Each system has its pluses and minuses.
Probably would be easy to have retrieve line similar to paraanchor setup, possible 5 or 6 mm
Possibly, but 6mm line is hard to handle under any load and others have claimed that a full length trip line doesn't work because it fouls and wraps itself around the drogue line. Might be worth a test though.
yes thanks ! good works ! ok I watched the lines pop and whip , I thought the weight would sink it , how deep is the far end ? oh are you crazy ? to be honest ...I need more data , how do you know it's tied to the boat ,exactly best . 3-5 seconds of boring hardware . and for contrast same hardware on a industrial ship.
excellent and thank you for sharing
What a great video! Thanks for posting. I notice you have a 28' atom and you said these mild conditions. I'm little more than an armchair sailor, but 30 knotts and those waves were scary to me. When you went under sail, did you just use the small storm sail only and no main? (I have so much to learn).
We used the triple reefed main and storm jib together to drive the boat to windward then just the jib alone off the wind. If the wind increased we could drop the main entirely going to windward and use a very small storm trysail in its place but it is less efficient than the triple reefed main. Conditions weren't exactly mild that day but were mild in the context of needing to use a drogue.
extremely good and descriptive video of a series drogue. How would you compare this to being hove to? Which would you prefer?
thank you again for heading offshore " on purpose" to shoot this video!
+Cruiser2B Thanks. When the wind and seas get up there comes a point when being hove to puts too much stress on the boat and rigging. I would normally heave to in moderate gale conditions and then deploy the drogue in storm force winds where a rogue wave could roll the boat.
It would seem to me that the boat would ride better if the drogue were deployed from the bow. Any comments? Why deploy the drogue astern?
It could be deployed and retrieved from the bow but when riding to the drogue it needs to be attached to the stern as explained here:
jordanseriesdrogue.com/
For riding to a drag device from the bow you would want something like the para-tech sea anchor instead.
Because you have more than average experience, offshore in several/many different bodies of water, and in a variety of boats but particularly the Carl Alberg Triton 28 , . . . . It occurs to me to ask, on what past occasions have you had to think about/use drogues, what different drogues have you used in the past, and how did the various different drogues work and what leads you now to use the JSD?
+George Ray By good passage planning (sailing the right route in the right season) I've managed to avoid a lot of prolonged storm force winds. If winds are under 40 knots then heaving to or running under bare poles has worked for me in places like the South African cape and Indian Ocean. Shorter duration squalls of stronger winds also don't require a drogue because there isn't enough time for seas to build too high. I did test and carry a 15' diameter para-anchor for years but never used it seriously and got rid of it. I like the different concept of how the JSD works and think it has some advantages.
I was wondering why/if your leaving you tiller live? It doesn't have a negative effect on the wind vane steering?
I was busy at the time and didn't get around to it. Next time I'll lash the tiller amidship. The windvane was not really steering anyway since the drogue was in control of our course at about 2 knots boat speed.
Great video. Some one said you have two books?
Yes, they are available on amazon and there are links to them at atomvoyages.com
Well done.
I'm surprised about the helm at 12:27 did you live it unfastened during the whole gale ???…
I got busy with other things and ignored the tiller but yes normally I would lash it amidships.
Some rudder questions: As I viewed the video I noticed that when you had disconnected the wind vane and the drogue was steering the boat the tiller was moving freely port to starboard and back again. This would mean that the rudder was moving freely with the current flowing past the boat from aft. My thought is that the rudder could strike its maximum angle randomly and possibly with significant force. Would there be a threat to damaging the rudder in this situation? Would locking it in place with chain or dampening it with a bungee arrangement of sorts reduce this risk if it is there?
I left the self-steering engaged as an experiment. The boat speed was slowed to about 2 knots under drogue so the apparent wind shifts on the wind blade allowed the vane's rudder and the tiller to move side to side. The arresting effect of the drogue meant that the shifting tiller had little effect. Next time, I will deploy the drogue with the vane rudder pulled up out of the way and lash the tiller amidships.
I've been in storms at sea in Gulf of Alaska, but not on a sailboat. We never needed to throw out any kind of brake though, fortunately. I’m just wondering why there is a need for multiple drogues as opposed to one larger sea anchor? There must be quite an advantage to the series method to justify the complexity.
My understanding is that the drag is more evenly applied in a moderate amount. You can read more at these links:
www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pdf/jordanseriesdrogue.pdf
www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/parachute-anchor-vs-series-drogue-vs-tires-thoughts-57811.html
Multiple drogues mean that the forces are averaged along the length of the device. The currents within the waves can't move the device, averaging out the drag on the boat.
You might want to look at Larry Pardey ,Storm tactics book.
He does it a little different than you.
Can the cones collapse while deployed? Also, separate question, if the stormjib was still on would it decrease pitching?
I've never heard of the cones collapsing. Since they are many individual cones with the rode in the center of each it doesn't seem to be a problem. Yes, the storm jib steadies the boat and reduces the rolling.
I'm not all that familiar with sailing beyond just recreationally. I thought in a storm you always want to keep the bow upwind?
The only way to keep the bow truly upwind is to use a large parachute type sea anchor. Even then you risk having the boat surge back and break it's rudder. Some people prefer the parachute off the bow, others like letting the boat move 2-3 knots downwind with the series drogue off the stern. You do need to have a strong companionway to stand up to a breaking wave though.
Very educational.
Since topic is important for me and not many information on the RUclips, may I ask you the few questions by email. I don't wanna overload comments with that.
Thank you
You can email me through the contact link at atomvoyages.com. By the way, I'm making a lighter, more compact small boat version of the drogue using dyneema line and will put up another video eventually showing its construction details.
When to heave to or run and when to use this method with this size of boat?I'd be worried in heavier wave conditions that faster waves would swamp the stern with drogue..Any thoughts?
+Mike Ob On a small boat the sails can only handle so much wind before the boat is overpowered even when hove to. It's true the cockpit and companionway are vulnerable to breaking seas riding to a drogue, so the cockpit lockers need to be nearly watertight with gasketed, latched lids and the companionway drop boards must be strong. If you ride to a parachute sea anchor off the bow you could fall back and break your rudder or the bow could fall off when hit by a rogue wave and cause more destruction. With a drogue the stern normally rises to the seas such that you will not likely get solid water flooding the cockpit although that could happen. If it does it will spill out as the boat rolls and the rest drain away. Read more about the issue at: jordanseriesdrogue.com/
Hi why not run another line with the main line that runs straight down to the end if the drogue run. If this is free running then you can pull that in and it will reverse the cones and will allow all of the cones to be pulled in quickly;)
Many people who have tried that found that the retrieval line gets fouled on the drogue making it ineffective.
Being that I don't have an anchor windlass can I use a cockpit winch to retrieve the drogue? Also, can deck cleats be used as anchor points or is there an issue with chafing?
The two issues with using standard stern mooring cleats is chafe and breaking the small cleat bolts or pulling them thru the deck when hit by a large wave. You can use a cockpit winch in moderate conditions but it would require a lot of effort and risking pulling the winches out of the deck in high seas. People have managed to use drogues successfully with stern cleats and cockpit winches but there is always the risk that they aren't up to the loads in extreme conditions. It would be rare that you encountered those extremes so maybe it's worth the small risk to you.
It holds the ship well. Chafe must be a big enemy in a long storm.
Curious as to why you didn't follow Donald Jordan's recommendation of using 35 lbs of weight? Sometimes 50 lbs is required. It was clear the bridle was slackening which in rough seas could be a problem. The video looks good, just concerned about incorrect recommendations as proper weight placement is important.
You can find different weight recommendations but on the following link they specified 15-25lb:
www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/D_12.htm
You are probably right that more is better, and I'll probably upgrade it to 15-20 lbs for actual storm use but my thought was to have a drogue that is more easy to store on a small boat, and easy to deploy and retrieve and will still do the job I require, even though it may not work in a truly enormous rogue wave strike. For example, do you attempt to design a drogue to save you on a 30-foot boat from a 40-foot breaking wave that you will never encounter, if that is even possible to do, or a 30' wave, or where do you draw the line and say it's still reasonable protection?
The Jordan Series drogue had the highest failure rate of any device tested by the USCG until the 35 to 50 lbs of weight was added. Not sure why a company selling the Series drogue would not stick with the USCG test results? I believe Matt at www.sailrite.com/ sells the series drogue and adheres to USCG recommendations of 35 to 50 lbs. "Where do you draw the line" is something to consider. Thanks.
Thank you for this great demonstration! How are the 1/2" U-bolts backed up on the transom? Also your tiller seemed to be whipping around quit a bit. Would you ever lash down the tiller to keep it centered when the JSD is deployed? Please keep the vids coming very much appreciated!!
+Edward Jones Even though they are mounted through a strong area close to where the transom joins the hull I added some fiberglass and aluminum backing plates. Horizontal chainplates would be even stronger. I was preoccupied with other things on this brief test but would lash the tiller amidships next time.
How you retrieve under full load ?
Same way as in the video - brute force with the windlass, although at some point that won't be manageable so in most cases you would wait until the storm has moderated before retrieving.
Respect
Respectfully: Wouldn’t it be much safer to ride head to the sea? I.e. deploy the drogue from the bow.
That may be true on some boats in some situations. The Pardey's book Storm Tactics recommends heaving to with a sea anchor deployed at an angle off the bow. But let's say on a long passage a 40 knot wind is blowing towards your destination. You probably want to continue making progress moving around 2 kt with a JSD. And storms don't always shut off right away and that 40 kt storm may blow at 30 kt for awhile and you can just sit tight and continue making some 50 miles per day. On the other hand if you have a lee shore ahead then you would want to stop forward movement as much as possible and then the sea anchor would be better. It would be good to have both options.
Thank you!
if you didnt have those rings on the stern would you run this to the winches?
Usually the stern mooring cleats are a stronger mounting location than direct to winches so I'd check the backing plates and strengthen if needed. An advantage to the U-bolts or chain plates attachment is that you can attach with an eye splice, thimble and shackle to reduce chafe at that point.
How big are the seas
About 4-7 feet but occasional waves were a bit bigger and steeper than the rest.
Never deploy any drogue weight first (power mode). Always bridle first to flake out safely.
I wouldnt go to sea with out a JSD.. thanks for sharing atoms
Surely this is a drogue/warp not a true sea anchor. If the waves were cresting behind it would be prudent to deploy it from the bow and keep your nose to the waves. Look forward to your follow up in big seas.
@mattc1664 absolutely not. Read the USCG reports and trials - they're linked on the JSD website.
The JSD is towed astern. It significantly slows the boat and keeps it from racing down waves and pitchpoling.
exelent!
Jumped to 6:00 mark and switched off immediately! The sight of a boom swaying makes me so angry, from this to on moorings and everywhere else, these people don’t deserve a boat!
Very interesting demo. Would this work on my 8M Catalac Catamaran? or am I better off just running downwind with a storm jib? Seems like a lot of effort to retrieve.
+Snake Plisken A drogue should work on your catamaran provided you have strong chafe-proof attachment points and the cockpit area and companionway are not prone to flooding the cabin if a wave lands aboard. When conditions are too severe to run downwind under storm jib or bare poles because you fear a broach or even pitchpoling then the drogue could be a safer choice. If the storm passes and winds are light when you retrieve the drogue it will come in a lot easier. But a JSD is not something you use too often anyway.
I thought you were dead....
Sr. Does it have a specific feature of the outboard shaft? I mean the column of the engine is bigger than the normal ones? I have a " normal" 6.5hp.... it seems yours have a large column which reach the water easier.
My outboard is an extra-long shaft (25-inch). Standard for a dinghy is short shaft. At a minimum you want a 20" long shaft but the extra 25" will give better performance in waves without the prop sucking air.
Ahhh...I got!...Pity, at first I was excited to use my dinghy engine...Thank you Sr. Have a nice day...
long aint they!😄
now you are concerned about the boat surfing and losing control, the rudder stalling? is that correct? How would you rate this with a gale rider?
+John Beasley Yes, or even a pitchpole in a freak rogue wave. I don't have experience with the gale rider but the test results at the end of the following video by the para-anchor people showed the gale rider had much lower drag. The series drogue also has a different concept which is explained at:
jordanseriesdrogue.com/
never being in a Gale myself I can't what you did was bad but from what I heard bair pole is a bad idea. you have no control and more likely to be rolled. you might want to check out documentary on the 1979 fast net race, as well as storm tactics cape horn tested. they example the prius and cons of different tactics not so much on the gear. I really like the idea of many cones.
Looks like way too much braking power in that
Great but once it is deployed you can not shorten the drogue during the storm.
Probably better to have a drogue in a bight at least it can be winched in if need be.
+chris lacock Yes, the JSD has some limitations but as you can see in the video it is not a big problem to retrieve it in 35 knots and even more after you practice your technique. If you had a drogue in a bight then it would be bulky and more costly. If you used it with a bridle it would probably twist up and become ineffective. If used without a bridle it would load only one corner of the boat and possibly foul anyway. Similar issues as a trip line.
atomvoyager
Well mate it's true everything has limitations, however I have used a drogue in a bight 28mm polypropylene about 70m in total.
This was on a 9.5m (Rival 31) in a gale which blew up to storm 10 for 3 days in Biscay, this is my only experience with drogues (and storms!) and the main thing I learned was that it was very effective given sufficient searoom !
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The problem was that the sea state did not stay the same ie. the wave length changed. and so what worked and gave steerage suddenly stopped working, then later I found it worked again.
After the experience I came to the conclusion that if I could have changed the length of the drogue it would 'grip' the changing waves and allow me keep stern to the seas.
As you say this is quite a bulky bit of kit, however there was no way I could have gone forward in those conditions to try winch in the jordan drougue as you did in the vid.
Of course every boat is also very different
Hope my little experience helps you or others.
atomvoyager
PS
I also added fenders and stuff to the bight (including a 35lb CQR !) in an attempt to make the drogue bite.
These would be lost if you release one end to recover/change the length.
Wow. This narrator sounds seriously depressed.
Forgive me... but there are lots of red-flags for me here (I'll start small):
1. You need to stow your winch handles.
2. Before deploying the drogue you were way over-powered, sailing up wind.
3. Your spray dodger is a massive liability in 40kts, and should have been stowed (especially if there are breaking seas)
4. Yes, you should run-bare poles at the time you deploy your drogue, otherwise the 'snatch' (shock load) on the eyelets could rip them out of your hull, leaving massive holes in your boat. Then you should run the storm jib to ensure your bow stays downwind (I saw your boat veering from time to time, and this was weather-helm caused by your spray-dodger)
5. If the waves and wind are at different angles then you should run the droge more off the opposite stern quarter to the wave direction. This will bring your boat more perpendicular to the waves and you'll broach less.
6. If it slowed you to only 2kts then your drogue is too big for your boat. You should still aim for c.5kts. I'd suggest losing 50-60ft off the end of your series.
7. Rig up a trip line to the far-end of the drogue... Simple 8mm line, that you can pull on that collapses the little cones from the far-end and makes them a LOT easier to pull in. A young guy should be able to pull that in by hand.
Thanks for your comments. Most of what are red flags to you are just different practice for different sailors on different boats. Keep in mind this was just a test of short duration and so things would be done differently in a different situation:
1. Yes, it's common practice for most sailors to stow their winch handles. I always leave a winch handle in one of the winches at the mast and one on a cockpit winch and not just because I'm lazy. I find it far safer to not have to carry a winch handle around when going forward trying not to get flung off the boat and storage options at the mast makes for too much clutter. In two circumnavigations I haven't lost a handle this way yet so that is not an issue.
2. This is a tender, low freeboard, long keel 28-foot Pearson Triton and it needs to put the rail under in these conditions to reduce leeway. I don't like pushing the boat that hard either but in this case I had to stay hard on the wind at a good speed to avoid shoals close to leeward. If you sail a bigger, high freeboard boat then of course you would sail with less heeling.
3. The dodger was up because it is relatively low profile and not a problem in the mild conditions that day. But yes, it's better to stow it for longer runs in bigger seas.
4. Launching the drogue with bare poles is better practice but not so much for the reason you state. It's far safer to deploy at slow speed so there is less chance of damage from a snagged or tangled line as it pays out under load. The biggest danger there I see is getting a line wrapped around yourself. The drogue attachment points are designed to withstand the shock load of a rogue wave so the load from the storm jib was several times less than that.
5. Running the drogue bridle so it is somehow adjustable to winds that shift after building a big sea is an interesting idea since that can be a problem.
6. This drogue is already smaller than the designer recommended for this size boat. Different types of drogues for different purposes can use varying cones. If you want to keep the boat moving faster then you don't have good resistance to pitchpoling. You can design for one or the other, but not both.
7. Yes, it would be ideal to have a trip line but several people, including the designer have concluded that a trip line will get wrapped up and foul on the drogue and is not recommended. Perhaps a partial trip line with float on the end would work but the float would have to be large not to sink from the weight on the drogue and pulling a large float fast through the water could be a problem. Then you'd have to trust that you could cast it all off and beat back upwind to pick it up without losing a very expensive piece of gear. Often the wind after a storm does not die down that much and you want to get underway in say 30 knots and large seas and that makes a partial trip line impractical for most of us.
Leaving your winch handles on your winch is a good way to lose them.
That's possible but can't be such a good way to lose them since I haven't lost one like that in 40 years of sailing. A better way to lose them on a small boat in rough seas is to fuss with carrying them around or trying to get them in and out of a winch handle pocket.