Excellent information to share…. As for pulling grounded boats off, I’ve rarely pulled them off. A few weeks ago, we pulled one off the rocks by attaching a 200 foot line (I keep onboard) to the grounded boat’s halyard and pulled the mast down and floated the boat off the rocks. I find this technique to be much safer and causes the least amount of damage to keel. Of course, this technique may not be possible in all situations.. The only mess to pick up will inside the cabin if things were not put away… 😊
On the Island of Lefkas the harbour of Vasiliki has a sandbar on the Starboard as you exit the I was on a Flotilla sailing holiday back in my favourite Greek Islands, I was one of three on a 30ft, we rotated captain daily, One of us was a submariner, who sailed dinghys, one was a Lasser dinghy racer, I was the only one with experience, with cruising boats, So when we grounded leaving harbour that morn(Wasn't my day as skipper I was having a ear infection sorted)I realised what had happend shouted to the helm to go astern, and dashed forward and grabbed the M/sheet halyard and calling on the one other onboard to help we both jumped over the Starboard rail, a few moments, later the boat slid back into a floating position, 👍👍🤏
Thank mate a good talk about keels, your spot on, I've just done a major refit on my keel. a Formosa 56 in Australia. . . . in my experience . . one weakness about full keels getting grounded for new captains and where the rudder is at the same depth and level as the keel is that it is common for an inexperienced captain to try to get out of the situation in reverse when in mud or sand . . . . the rudder unless absolutely straight can (and will) dig into the mud or sand forcing the over stress of the steering system and snap cables and pop hydraulic lines. (speaking from experience) the safest for me is an fin keel that is deeper but in conjunction with a skeg hung rudder.
@@rachelmoore5703 That’s true of most all moulded in keels. Not just full keels. My KP 44 and Cal 46 were not full keel but large and extended fins that in tens of thousands of miles of ocean cruising never had any problem of any kind. But yes. The ultimate in over all strength is full keel attached rudder. But there is good and viable compromise that is well worth the trade off.
Videos like this make me appreciate my Ericson 31 Independence more and more. Encapsulated lead fin keel and transom hung rudder that can be removed while in the water. Not bad for a mid-1970s design. Thanks Bruce King.
@@carlthor91 -- strong design is key. I love the idea of a _swing keel_ or _lifting keel_ yet to do it correct, the boat should be built like an upside down tank! Southerly's, built maybe 10 or 20 years ago, fit the bill - yet they are typically pricey.
@@drx1xym154 Lifting keel like C&C Mega 30, not so much, raced and cruised on one for 4 seasons. Great performance, a little bit too delicate, just rubbing over a rock 😞
Very good review with clear cut criteria. Any auto driver knows that millions are on the road. Which car design do you want if your in an accident. Volvo, Mercedes, the owner / driver has to be responsible for there own decision........ It's not a game of chance, it is not Poker, if one says it is like Poker, then stay home and play out of our way on the water. .... Enough said. Thanks from a YT follower/ offshore ketch owner now on the hook on the Canary islands.
Lots to think about! Especially when you consider the sailors maxim: “There are two types of sailors! Those who have run aground… and those that lie not haven run aground! “ 😊
My Cal ll-46 is still crossing oceans at 51 yrs old! Never any keel problem. Nor any other structural problems. This is a very accommodating boat that can sail 200 mile days on passage. Oh yes, the walk in engine/equipment room with full standing headroom and work bench with vise and drill press is kind of nice too! And my wife and I love the 17” of galley space. Sometimes old is better.
@@mfournier12 That is correct. I almost didn’t buy it when I saw that. But! Bill Lapworth and Jensen marine built a very robust boat. The spade is attached at the hull AND another massive bearing above. Very robust. The handling characteristics at sea were excellent, exceptional. I bought a little ray marine wheel pilot to be used just when motoring in calm conditions as a back up. It was designed for smaller boats to 16K #. We were a large 46 foot ketch of over 35K# loaded. It could steer us in worst case scenario, downwind in a gale. And it DID. The pilot was a toy but that’s just how well the boat behaved. It would wear it out sooner so I didn’t do that for extended periods. But was soooooo glad that I bought this boat. There are exceptions.
This is an interesting but rather superficial and non technical post. The reality is a bit more complex. I have been designing and building boats for 55 years in the yachting industry working around the world. In 1967 we had the beginnings of GRP and 1969 the IOR rule which saw the move to fin keels on flat bottomed designs. This gave us a lot of new problems. I was with C&N and then moved to Carter building the Carter 33 etc. In the early days we simply overbuilt. Later designs were lighter and our materials improved to allow lower resin to glass ratios. Then the CGF part of IOR vanished increasing stability and bulb keels appeared with low chord ratios giving a problem of smaller attachment area to the hull. Many yachters don't understand the complex forces acting on fin keels, especially bulb keels, which have basic static mechanical loads and the dynamic lift forces to counter not to mention the rather unpredicatble inertial forces due to motion in a seaway. Then there is grounding. With the long lever arm and the weight/speed of the vessel can overstress a single bolt at quite low speed which, if undetected, leads to a progressive failure of all the bolts. Also people think that FRP is homogenous ( like a metal ) It is not - the structure is a laminate and can be subject to progressive interlaminar shear for a variety of reasons. Poor quality control. Too much or too little resin etc etc etc. The layers can tear apart due to failure of the resin bond. So a small crack can progressivley overload the remaining structure. Most accidents are different and need to be properly researched. This post is pleasant but technically uninformed. Chris Freer - yacht designer and builder
Delamination seems to be a factor because there is no glass reinforcement to hold the layers together. I was brought up to believe that you can't rely on adhesive (resin) alone or fixings (glass strands) on their own, but you need both together. So the problem might be building the hull as a laminate structure in the first place. The hull would be better made as a homogeneous structure involving resin and short strands in all directions through the hull thickness. I remember earlier attempts to achieve this by applying a mixture of resin and short strands to the mold in one application of full thickness. That way you end up with a fully homogeneous hull material such as you would get in say ferrocement. Another approach might be to build a fully 'stand alone' structure incorporating the mast step, keel anchorage, and shroud chainplates. An approach which was used in small boat construction years ago.
Thank you Chris, you mention briefly about laminate, and resin advances over the years. John Kretchmer is a friend and had mentioned this as well, that newer laminates and techniques allowed for less thickness and weight in the layup. Do you have a resource that I can read in detail about this technique? HR boats have bolt but the bilge is deep and slanted aft which should provide additional stability and strength. Should all designers be doing this??
@@sailinghaldis I can't add much to what I wrote as a general comment. All yacht designs are different so there is no universal solution. It is case based. There are also differences in materials - fibre type - glass, kevlar etc and resin types - polyester, eopxy etc.not to mention budget and the builders reputation. It is up to the designer and the regulating body ABS, MCA, RCD etc etc to arrive at a solution for the individual design. When I started in GRP yachts in the 60's it was overbuild, bucket and chuck it 'engineering - but no more. The work must be carried out by professionals. Certainly outside the remit of 'practical sailor' because its about the numbers not the mythology and 'opinions'. The Titanic sub is a classic example of misuse of materials by an amateur who basically killed himself (and his passengers) with a mixture of ego and deafness. Because yachting is basically amateur there are too many unqualified people fielding airy fairy nonsense opinions to make money from hits on RUclips. Sorry I can't help more.
I am an aeronautical engineer now dabbling in nautical engineering. I agree that the distance between the bolts should be wide so as to decrease the loading on the hull. If not, the structures that you have shown for narrow bolt widths are woefully inadequate. They put the keel bottom in flat plate bending, something that would require a very thick bottom and a very wide area. It is no wonder that for these cases the keel can rip the bottom out of the boat. If I bought a used boat with a narrow width bolt keel, I would design and build an internal framework in aluminum or stainless steel to take the vertical boat loads and move the reaction points outwards onto the hull ribs. That would remove the local vertical loading on the bottom of the hull fiberglass and move it to the ribs.
I helped a friend ‘fixing up’ an old wooden sailing boat* fitted with a finn keel…. And did EXACTLY what you described above! Without any calculations or timewasting I fabricated a steel frame from bits of steel profiles kicking about, little time no money…. But ANY physics-aware person is worried looking at a 4 inch wide base whereto a keel with a huge bulb at the bottom end is mounted; surely at an older wooden boat!! My own sailing boat is a Laurin Koster 28, a full keel double ender; for me NO FINN KEEL!!!!….. ever! * a Kolibri 560; a wooden Dutch ‘cold-moulded’ sailing yacht dating back to the ‘60s; MANY were sold!!
I have had a Pearson 25 for 52 years. In the first five years, the mooring I bought in Hyannis Bay, MA was a problem. The owner did not tell of the shallow low tide (
Look up the report on the MaxFun 35 where a keel failure resulted in death of crew member. the hull design was very robust with the keel socketed into the hull. The keel design as specified by the builder utilized a steel fabricated fin with a lead bulb at the bottom. The keel fabricator modified the design for apparently easier fabrication but was much less robust and relied on fillet welds to attach the fin to the top plate. These welds were of poor penetration and ultimately resulted in fatigue cracking and failure. The top plate stayed firmly attached to the hull which allowed to boat to stay afloat.
My old boat was an Ericson 25, Centerboard. Possibly the last one with the original centerboard. When I pulled it out the centerboard was hanging on with just a little 50 year old spray foam. I was thankfully able to trace it out and rebuild it. The advantage of this Ericson design is the boat still has 2,500 pounds of lead encapsulated at the bottom of the hull. As a result most people whom lost their centerboard while out sailing ( and there have been several cases ) never even knew they lost it until they reached the shore. My new boat has a full encapsulated lead keel. Exactly what I wanted. Yes she's slow, and can be a bugger in tight spaces. However she is tough and reliable.
I followed your channel for a couple of years now following you on practical sailor Have enjoyed the videos on practical sailor a great deal. Enjoying this short video very much
Encapsulated keels are often a real problem after a grounding too. And if post grounding damage is not fixed and finds its way into the ballast keel it's a big job and nightmare by all accounts. All one can do is maintain and check keelbolts (go for stainless) and know the odd are good that you won't lose your keel it's a rare occurrence. Expedition Evans sail an oceanis they repaired themself, grid matrix and everything. It's probably stronger than original.
Batwing of Seattle was built in 1974. I sailed it across the Pacific by the scenic route. Owner 2 circumnavigated. Owners 3 sailed it from Bellingham to S. America. It's still going strong. The internal ballast was lead pigs and lead shot. No bolts were involved, and no frames. The masts were solid and unstayed. It's still going strong! It had a huge sail area of well over 700 sq ft in a junk rig. It is 34' long. The ballast was 6,000 pounds, and the displacemet is 18,000 pounds. Longish keel, designed by Ed Monk sr. 50 years old!
We had a boat in our racing fleet lose its keel and sink between New Orleans and Key West Race Week. It was Peregrine, a 72' sloop. It had some modifications beforehand that included mast & keel modifications. The keel came off in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico late one night and ripped a large hole in the bottom of the boat. The boat sunk within two minutes and all 6 crew managed to get into the life raft. They spent two days in the raft before getting picked up by a Greek Freighter and brought to Mobile, Alabama. According to Sailing World magazine, the boat washed up on the beach near Tampa Bay six months or so later.
As an engineer and fast boat skipper you have raised some good issues. Bolt on keels can work if the top is far greater than the bottom. I have seen kevlar torn on hulls from upside down keel boats for sale. I even sailed a repaired keel boat across atlantic with great fear. Far safer to loss a knot and have a boat that get you home.
Keels don’t just fall off. We, people, love to blame materials, when something goes wrong. One has to look at the human factors. I agree, bolted keels are more likely to fail. So knowing that, one should inspect the integrity of the assembly regularly. Especially after a grounding. Mostly after a grounding, if no water comes in, we want to believe everything is fine……
Great article. The one thing you didn't mention is ballast material. In a grounding/impact, lead ballast will more easily deform, lowering the loads transmitted into the hull as compared to a steel or concrete ballast. The Catalina 42 MkII uses lead. Most of the French boats use steel. The Oyster w/ the hull section ripped off that you showed had used concrete.
I recently acquired a Morgan 41 outisland aft cabin. Despite the poor performance, I am thrilled that it has a full keel. I've had it anchored in an area where one tide got so low that it tipped over and allowed me to scrape some muck off of the bottom, essentially careening it unintentionally. I wouldn't feel comfortable careening a boat with a bolt on keel. I plan on going offshore and I understand a full keel is much more comfortable and I never ever want to worry that the keel will fall off in the middle of the ocean.
@@Malibus_Most_Wanted Reading these brilliant comments, I realise that my bolt-on keel needs to be taken down to check the keelbolts. The hull has not been repaired well from an earlier grounding - keel trailing edge has sunk into the hull and the flooring panels rock bc the beams are not straight on top. Well the light and fast boat I bought in '22 was cheap for its 36 feet so I don't really mind. Have two other sailingboats to keep me sailing (only summer, too much ice in the winter :) Glassfiber can be repaired to be stronger than the original. With epoxy & skill that is.
Hi Tim, useful advice as per usual - and I just bought a First 35.7 with bolt on keel - it has been tapped at some point and the inner hull formers / stringers at the rear of the keel have been professionally repaired under the insurance by the previous owner I hadn’t really sussed out the implications of this until I’d done a lot more research culminating with this latest video - I’d welcome your opinion as to whether this is unlikely to be an issue or, conversely, a drama waiting to happen….?
Thank you for that which you do, I hope the younger sailors start to realise, their is more to boating that needs your attention, than just does this boat look good on me,
Check out Rovers Adventure. He built a 22' junk rig with 2 keels. Previously he had reconditioned a Contessa and set sail to circumnavigate, but Covid forced him to return home, so he built his own boat from plans from a naval architect friend. Last posting he was on his way to the Azores.
I've gone with a fully encapsulated keel, but it is not the "full" keel types you showed in your video. I have grounded in mud and sand and just backed off under my own engine power. This specific boat has lead ballast so the problems you mentioned with concrete and steel should not appear. It's not easy to find this combination of encapsulated lead keel and fairly modern keel design, but they do exist. But it really depends upon where one of going to sail and how much time they will spend sailing. It also depends upon how someone is going to sail. Few people are really going off-shore, most are coastal cruising and potentially do some weekend club racing.
We grounded on a sandbank a few weeks ago on a full-keel Rustler 31. Also got loose quickly using wind and engine. The owner wasn't worried at all; would be just some damaged paint if anything.
It is a big mater of what you want to do with your boat. Friends once ran aground with a First 40.7 causing severe damage. The repair did cost 40.000€ on the price level of about 15 years ago. It was a charter-boat and I sailed it a year later myself. The repair was well done and it was the stiffest First 40.7 I ever sailed. In the repair they removed a lot of the matrix, glued it back i and then glassed over in. This easily gave the boat 50kg additional but it was really stiff. Something you could feel when trimming the rig. It trimmed different (better) then other 40,7 ... We use the boats for baltic sea sailing. There is a harbor every few miles. Even if you damage your boat severely it is very likely that you can limp home, perhaps wait for calm weather, motor home and organize a buddy boat for safety. I am quite some years older now looking for potentially an own boat. My issue is that I would want to leave the baltic sea. There would be no more harbors every few miles and on my very few offshore passages I already saw a floating container. We passed it in a distance of perhaps 20 meters and I saw it when it was right next to us. The question is whether you insist on a boat that you expect to be able to "limp home" a 1000 miles or whether it is ok to you to accept a boat where you grab s cushion, press it onto a leak and motor to the next harbor. You can do that for 10 miles but you can not do that for 1000 miles. But there is a lot more: Does the boat have a system of watertight bulkheads? Is the boat a light weight racer or a robust cruiser or is it just cheaply made to the minimum of some standards? Can you improve it with realistic measures? The biggest problem on this topic is that there are no crash tests like on cars. Running aground or hitting a container is no official test so cheaply made boats are not designed for it. Not completely the cheap end perhaps tells you about using Kevlar in the impact zones - how much Kevlar do they use and do they test it ;) ? It is an extremely emotional topic as well...
I'm a fan of lifting keels that socket into a robust carbon or glass structure that has no bolts or welds. I've run aground many times at speed and have no concerns of keel structural issues.
Not everyone’s cup of tea I know, but here in the uk we have twin keels, long and shallow, encapsulated and bolt on, so much fun, run in to the beach and you can let the tide go, wait a few hours refloat and away you go,
Respect to the sailors. Thats a lot to deal with. I was raised on the water and know just enough to know I cant deal with that lol. Much admiration to those who can.
I am one of those 'old salts' that would never go offshore with a short fin. Not because of keel failure which is uncommon but because of the much more common incidents of rudder failure and performance in heavy weather. Whatever the keel arrangement I want the rudder to be supported by the keel or at least a skeg. I also want a keel with sufficient area to support the boat when stalled. Narrow fins prevent leeway by effectively 'flying' upwind relying on attack angle, high aspect ratio and speed to do so. All very fast and efficient. When hove too or jogging slowly because of bad weather this keel design tends to stall leaving the boat making several knots sideways and unable to point into the waves which makes a knockdown much more likely. For a race boat with a full crew this is not an issue, they are not going to 'batten Down' anyway. For a short handed, especially older, crew you will really appreciate the traditional stratagem of 'hovng too and putting the kettle on' that a substantial keel allows.
... I also wonder, that how many people realize that the structural mesh as seen in the video at 2:55 is wrongly designed and does not eliminate the severe "point stresses" that the keel bolts impacts towards the hull material during heavy weather sailing? The blue structural construct does not make the keel attachment any stronger (or maybe just a tiny bit). It is a clear design error based on faulty thinking.
My 1984 Freedom Pilothouse 39 Schooner has a lead-encapsulated modified fin keel giving us both great performance and safety. Even after several hard groundings never been a problem - Like the freestanding masts simple strong and virtualy maintenance-free - Original carbon masts will likely last another 40 years
Though I have never designed boats, I used to design buildings and always thought I had a pretty good eye for the load paths in various structures. I thought the big loads acting on a keel to hull joint would result from the pull of the shrouds attempting to overturn the boat. This then would be resisted by a counteracting moment at the keel to hull joint. After looking at the keel to hull joint in my humble Catalina 25, I have often thought that there should be a sturdy set of ribs that would connect the keel attachment point to the shrouds . The matrix mentioned in the video gets the load almost there, but not quite.
This setup was used in the days of large wooden racers like J boats that were built very light and had huge rigs...the ballast, mast step, chainplates and mast partners could be tied together with what amounted to ring frames to provide the strength needed to hold it all together and the wooden ribs and planking could be minimal. Similar schemes are sometimes used in high performance modern racers where the hull shell basically serves to keep the water out. It's a smart (but costly) solution, but one drawback is that extreme loads that develop can transfer to weaker areas so that internal framing needs to be thoughtfully designed- its like a roll cage in a car; besides rollover safety it can stiffen it and allow for higher performance and better handling but that increases the stresses developed. At the point of failure it then becomes catastrophic and instantaneous rather than allowing flex and twist that can give you some warning that you're on that edge and need to back off. One classic marine example is the Americas Cup class OneAustralia sinking where the mast and keel remained perfectly stable and intact as the rest of the boat folded up around them and sank in well under two minutes...theres a pinned comment from one of the crew on this video that gets into details about how not enough care was taken to plan for longitudinal loading- m.ruclips.net/video/8Yau9A7XDHs/видео.html
Agreed. Like most lay people, the person responsible for this video overlooks lateral forces on the keel. These can be substantial in some grounding situations, as well as knockdowns. As a structural engineer and lifetime sailor I would be perfectly happy with the bolt on keel with a (laterally) skinny fin which was also limited in the fore and aft direction, provided the top of the fin was terminated by a solid, suitably thick horizontal metal flange extending in all directions a considerable distance beyond the fin itself. This flange would be flat on top and rebated into the hull, and that rebate would need to be extensively strengthened inside the boat with an internal grid. The junction of the flange to the fin would also need to be very carefully engineered and beyond reproach. Apart from cost, an obvious demerit is that you end up with a negative version of the desirable bilge sump. Not a problem given a metal boat which is well detailed against water ingress, however. Extending the fin up into the boat (into a deep socket) is theoretically as good, but I am less enthusiastic about it as it is difficult to keep tight. If the socket design is tapered, this problem resolves, but removal for maintenance will be difficult and expensive in comparison with the flange.
@@doctorpancake5848 In building design, we employed a design philosophy that would prevent the abrupt, catastrophic failure that you mention above. For example, in reinforced concrete design, the amount of tension steel is limited, to insure that the initial failure is an observable deflection which occurs prior to concrete fracture. This procedure is mandated by code.
The older Catalina boats made in Woodland Hills California carried a nickname with him. The Catalina SMILE I know my 30 had a Catalina smile in the front of the keel where it meets the hall every time it would be hauled out there would be a crack going around the front of the fiberglass where it met the hall and I know for a fact, it was never run grounded
All of the boats that I have owned have had bolt on keels. I have never felt completely comfortable with that but, I have sailed the boats hard, covered great distances and haven't had a problem. That said I'm always concerned that the bolts and ballast are made of different metals, and may or may not have been installed properly. What concerns me most is that I can't inspect them and really have to trust that I'm ok. I have always invested more than I wanted to into a good life raft that I damn sure installed correctly.... I sure hope whom ever packed it did their job right.... I think I'll go for a nice relaxing sail now :~)
I changed the keel bolts on my Moody 46. The nuts on the studs had corroded to the size of tennis balls. Had to remove the mast before taking the keel off. Expensive project but I’m happier now it’s done 👍😊
Thank you very much for this video. In our search for used sailing yachts for our round-the-world trip, we found an incredible number of boats with broken stringers, rusted keel bolts and loose keels. For us, only boats with encapsulated keels come into question. We keep asking ourselves why keels weighing several tons are only ever attached to the hull and not directly to the stringers. How is a hull that is perhaps made of 2.5 cm (1inch) thick GRP with such a small bearing surface and ridiculously small support surface supposed to absorb the forces that arise when sailing or at the slightest grounding? For us, these are floating death traps and that's why we won't sail something like this. Cheers from Germany, Juergen
I was on a charter boat that ran aground in Malta ... and a seacock sheared opening a hole. I was amazed at how quickly the boat began to sink. The captain started tearing floor boards up looking for the leak so I gently nudged the boat onto a sandy beach. No plugs on board so we used a wine bottle cork. Shows that running aground has many dangers.
Getting stuck with a full keel boat in a grounding, is always better than serious damage that grounding a fin could do. Another pluses of a full keel boat is the usually have a gentler motion at sea, are shallower draft and far less likely to pick up lobster or crab pot. I just spent 2 weeks in the mine field of lobster pots in Maine, on my full keel Bayfield, and didn't have to worry at all. We did see a fin keel boat I a yard getting new engine mounts an strut repairs caused by a tangled pot line on the exposed prop. Just a bit more food for thought when looking at boats.
Yes many don't consider the full or modified encapsulated keel and keel or skeg hung rudder vs a bolted on fin keel and spade rudder when they buy a boat. Those are all the coastal cruisers who lost their spade rudder to an orca also.
Take a lesson form car accident studies. We need to design a deformable crash zone layer between the main ballast and the hull, Such that a hard strike allows the hull to decelerate by deforming this layer even if the keel hits sold rock. The keel position will be displaced by the distance it takes to decelerate the hull. Sounds expensive? Save the keel and save the hull by having a disposable (maybe lead) layer between them. The least amount of material to replace after a hard hit.
@GreatCreative hey there. Thank you for sharing. I too love the hunter. Looking at the 50CC. Found a Jeanneau 54 sun odyssey that we really like n seems to have all the systems. Last option a Beneteau 473 that looks to be in fantastic shape n has everything ready for long-term live aboard. I still need a lot more education to truly know whats gonna be best. Looking at 3 years sailing the islands n we want to cross the Atlantic. Add we are looking around the same year models. 2004 to 2010.
@@jesuschrist-alphaomega I like your list. My personal favorites are the Catalina 42 or the Beneteau 473. I know a guy who hit a shipping container at 6 knots with a 473 in the Caribbean and was able to make it to port on his own. Major damage but the keel took the hit and stayed on. Do you feel lucky? Lets see, 72 keel failures since 1984. That's less than 2 a year. Beneteau has built over 25,000 1st series boats since 1977. That doesn't include their more popular Oceanus and Cyclades series. If you want to factor in Jeaneau, Catalina, Bavariia and all the other manufactures that use this method you're probably talking over a couple hundred thousand units produce. I'm guessing your odds are pretty good of staying upright
My boat is a bilge keel Sadler 29. It has two keels made of iron bolted on for several feet along the hull. It's made to take ground at low tide. It seems to be phenomenally strong, and I haven't noticed any problems so far. A British design, it's over 40 years old.
I would like to learn more about the swing keel designs for the Beneteau and other large boats. My 1985 Starwind 19 has a swing keel that stows up inside a shoal draft keel with lead plates either side. The board itself appears to have a wood core. I have run aground a few times and even forgot to raise the keel before sailing onto my trailer, without any damage. A few years ago I raised the boat on my lift and replaced the keel pendant line. Swing keel board looked good. I have had this boat for 39 years and have modified a few things, but never had any issues with this keel design.
I've rebedded at least 6 keels for various reasons. Never fun... but I can tell you this... those that were bolted on with 3M 5200... we're the hardest to separate. More mating surface the better. Andy Bogaart - Bogaart Boats.
Consider the sailboats that lost their keels. Cheeki Rafiki was a Bénéteau First 40.7, which is know to be their racer version of a cruising vessel, where weight vs speed is the top priority. So they're built fast with light weigh laminate schedules and materials and hitting something catastrophic is the least of their concerns, vs what kind of speeds they can get from that hull. That type of built sacrifices build strength and durability for racing performance. Also, other consequent keel issues came from other performance light weight racing vessels. Also other designs from the 80's and early 90's where higher tech materials and resins were not used. Today, the lessons have been used to add strength where needed and materials and resins that are higher strengths and performances.
What about directional stability? Very important when you enter a tidal harbor with a swell. It happens that a wave pushes the yacht of course and gets it stranded. Just a point to consider when you plan to cruise outside your comfort zone.
Great video! Glad you mentioned the Catalina 42 as that is a spectacular boat - I owned one for 12 years and not only a solid cruiser but we won lots of races. I think the Mark I and Mark II are the same as far as the keel is concerned though, with the primary difference being the shape of the transom and cockpit above the waterline. All of that said the best way to go fast and avoid having a keel fall off is to get a multihull!
For a cruising boat the only thing that makes sense to me is a full encapsulated leadkeel with a keel hung rudder. Have a cutaway forefoot if you want it a bit more kindle nimble when turning. The thing is people want race features on their boats for the bragging rights just like they want aero kits on their cars, but these features on a cruisong boat can get you killed (unlike on your car)
Thanks Tim, I'd still prefer a well made encapsulated keel. There are just less points of failure, important if the boat is getting on in age. Coming first on a Thursday night doesn't interest me, I play poker for my competitive streak lol. ⚓
Great topic but the next question is: how to inspect the keel bolts? Do I have to drop the keel or is there some testing which can be done? I have a 1994 hunter 40.5. Surface suferficial rusting is par for the course but what about crevis corrosion or other keel bolt malidies?
I am looking for a 42 to 50 foot sailboat to cross oceans. I recently passed on a Gulfstar 50 which is considered a very good blue water boat. My concern was the keel. It is a lead and concrete keel. Concrete is a great material in compression. But it has almost no strength in tension and is very brittle because of that. The choice of concrete and lead chunks was something I could not develop confidence with. I'm now looking at 2 Amels - a Maramu and a Santorin. Both are bolted on keels with fairly long contact with the hull. And the bolt on portion is relatively small. They appear to be integral glassed keels with a smaller bolt on section at the bottom. Another advantage to this is the deep bilge that can accept a little water before flooding the cabin sole. The downside is difficulty in cleaning the bilge. I've seen a couple of issues with a dirty bilge (hair and fibers) plugging the bilge pump intake or siphon break. As with most things, everything is about balancing the compromises made with each configuration. I'm leaning heavily toward long fin keels with deep bilges.
You should do a video here or on Lady K about swing keels. I think the southerly and even the IP swing keel are great designs... what do you think? I haven't sailed either design.
I know many boats in my club that have done circumnavigations with bolt on keels whereas the full keel ‘blue water boats’ in my club havent even left the country
I took a chance on a 7’ bolt on keel on a very used1982 custom wooden 42’ sloop w/ a fiberglass shell that was made in New Zealand. During the hull survey, my surveyor paid special attention to wood rot-but he also inspected the keel bolts and the joint below the waterline. His written and verbal comments included that ‘overall build quality was among the best he’d ever seen!’ During my transit down from Mystic, CT, I ran aground several times in the Chesapeake Bay (due to having tons of stuff and an even deeper keel than designed) with limited damage found after an year long haulout to re-rig the vessel. If one buys a boat w/ a bolt on keel, it is incumbent by the owner to do regular, keel inspections, both above and below the w/l! Great video, thanks for sharing!! Erik
Do you feel lucky? Lets see, 72 keel failures since 1984. That's less than 2 a year. Beneteau has built over 25,000 1st series boats since 1977. That doesn't include their more popular Oceanus and Cyclades series. If you want to factor in Jeaneau, Catalina, Bavariia and all the other manufactures that use this method you're probably talking over a couple hundred thousand units produce. I'm guessing your odds are pretty good of staying upright
Encapsulated keel 1989 Irwin 44. We touched a cement wall at 1 knt in the icw just S of cape fear. Cracked the glass, water intruded and the repair was extensive. Cement was granulated around the impact area. We now own a C400. I love this one my wife loves the old. SV Sandii
It’s disingenuous to only talk about total keel failures and not mention the amount of boats with keel bolt damage, delamination and other issues that come with bolt-on keels, which is sometimes irreversible and/or financially prohibitive and impractical to fix. Take those into account and do the math again. Add to that the difference in rudder design and suddenly your point is moot.
Hardly. As a delivery Captain, I’ve sailed all those boats. They ALL have some level of keel failure. Almost ALL Catalina keels rock back and forth, a little. There were 20 years of bolt ons, that hang from plywood reinforced keelsons. 2 out of 1000 keels that are loose, fall off
I bought a Pearson 26 in 1972, took it down to the Florida keys and back, and spent graduate school living on it and commuting in it from Woods Hole, MA to Southwest harbor ME. In Mass. I bought a mooring in Hyannis Harbor. The seller lied and the depth was not the claimed 5+ feet at low tide. My sailboat (4 ft keel) grounded out on sand every low tide.. A couple of years later (1975), when I moved it to Southwest Harbor, the boat yard discovered that the bolt threads on the bolted keel were almost gone. They rehung it for me. Forty years later, my boatyard (the other one went out of business) found that the bolts were corroding and they rehung it for me using marine grade hard ware. All good. The bottom line is to have your boatyard throughly assess your keel and its bolts regularly. I just passed the Pearson to my 32-year old son and he is enjoying it greatly. Meanwhile, I bought a 1967 Bristol 35.5 with a massively enclosed keel that weighs as much as the whole Pearson 26. It was indoor storage all these years and still is. It is in great shape and I just put in a new Yammer diesel. With a full and enclosed keel, this is a solid boat that is very reliable (8 knots with just the genoa). The Pearson was overbuilt as was the Bristol. No complaint here.
I do have to mention that, after 3 and half years of living on the Pearson 26 and using it a lot, the rudder broke off on the way to Nantucket from Hyannis and I had to use the sails and outboard to get to the west end of Martha's Vineyard. I called the company and they were amazed and also happy. The tiller post was quarter inch thick inaluminum pipe poured full with epoxy resin. They had no idea how long it would last. They said it looked like about 12 years due to my constant usage. It was not expensive to have a new rudder sent to me.
Because it wasn't adequately attached. End of story. Next question. And you can break anything, if you try hard enough, and especially if you ignore the need for maintenance. Anyway. if I can bolt wings onto an aircraft adequately then it can be done, if you use the right structure and hardware. Aerobatic planes use a handful of bolts to attach the wings. Expedition Evans rebuilt the structure of their 49' Beneteau. The matrix wasn't ever well attached and got broken free when it was grounded. Beneteau wouldn't even reveal what the original glue was. If you can glue Airbus wings together you can glue that matrix into the boat... if you do it right. On those aircraft wings the glue is stronger than the alloy being joined, partially because it is extremely thin. The Expedition Evans rebuild massively improved on the original glue and conceal job. Instead of glassing the grid to the hull, Beneteau made the grid with tabs included, then glued the tabs to the hull with something that is not strong enough. And Beneteau wasn't too careful about making sure the matrix was very close to the hull, so the glue joint would be thin. The grid, being able to flex separate from the hull, also cracked. So they removed everything that was not just fiberglass structure then glassed the boat together. Here's the episode where they look at the failure. ruclips.net/video/kb-B1t2DhDA/видео.html
You forget to mention that bolt on keels most hangs on a boat that’s floats higher. Those sail faster and over the water . A fixed in capsules keel is often a boat that is slower but goose true the water. I prefer a boat that moves true the water. Like a S shaped hull. It’s more comfortable.. Going to fast on a wave loading rudder control is not what I seek. Try to tow a Bavaria 44 of a benetau 50 .. the guy on the helm has a massive job keeping it lined up with the tow. Having a hull that go’s true the water with fixed keel it way more feasible .
My 45' Vic Carpenter sailboat has a stainless steel keel bolted on with about 24 large bolts. No problems with the bolts, but the keel needs West System epoxy on the s/s before applying the fairing material. This 45 year old yacht is just like new.
My nicholson 32ft from 1965 has long keel with over 3 metric tons of led in it, she ways 7.3 metric tons. Heavy laid up with fiberglass. Not the fastest but with a good blow when others reef she can stil go under full sail. Oldschool strong boat. Most of em built still sailing.
I belonged to a sailing club that had a 26ft Catalina with a winged keel. I was basically a newbie in a club full of wannabes. Every year, for the five years I was with them, when the boat was on the hard the keel always had spots where the filler had seperated out leaving gaps especially where the hull mates to the keel. Their collective attitude was just slap on some epoxy filler and paint over it it will be fine. Then one day I went for a sail with the chair of the keelboat committee and watched as he intentionally ran close astern across the wake of a large tug pushing multiple barges up river. Well the boat was just whipsawed and twisting back and forth, whoopee was his reaction. We had his 10 year old daughter on board and was doing this for her entertainment. It then finally clicked why every year the boat's keel was in such a shape. I tried finding the keel bolts but they seemed not readily accessible and left the club soon after. I did send him an article I saw about keels detaching from the hull. Don't know if he put teo and two together though.
I know a nice oyster 37, bolt on keel which hit the ground, sits on the hard for 13 years now, was repaired but they heared cracking noises lifting it to go back in the water. The owner never touched her again and bought a new boat. I did a low bid on her. Just sitting there rotting away now.
Little did we know 44 years ago when we bought a 6 year old Morgan 41 O. I. ketch and sailed only Florida and The Bahamas for 29 years, that if we were going offshore, that's the best type of boat. Solid glass hull, 10,000 lbs. of encapsulated lead full keel with fully protected prop. No Mainsail reefing necessary, just drop it completely when wind exceeded 20 25 kts. or at night. With the metal mast slides the main could be raised or lowered in a minute without a winch. Look at the beaches in the Spanish Med islands littered with the remains of dozens of fin keel, spade rudder, saildrive boats after the recent storm. Some full keel boats were there also but their salvage will be far easier and less costly.
I have a Catalina 42 fin, the fibreglass keel stub portion which is part of the hull that forms the bilge is very deep , the lead is attached to this portion. There are tranverse hull stringers that cross the hull and go into this deep keel stub, this design is very different from the Cheeki Rafiki bolt on keel, yes less wetted area on those type of designs but not very forgiving in a hard grounding. How many Catalina keels have fallen off?
I'm looking at buying a 1979 Islander 32 mk2. It has a lead encapsulated keel but its more a fin keel shape than a full keel (the 5'3" keel variant). It has had as least 1 grounding on Lake Travis in Austin. I have had the boat surveyed and a diver check the underside. There is an impact damage spot about 5 inches long (the diver's hand basically covered it) on the leading edge bottom tip of the keel, but no cracks seen by the diver. The lead might be partially exposed but only a little if so. Everything else checks out with the survey. Is this the type of thing that I should run from or take in stride as "xxxx happens in a lake" and its just minor but should be patched up? If there aren't delaminations or cracks can I be "mostly" confident I'm ok? I have a fiberglass specialist looking at the images/videos to see his take and get a guesstimate on repair. It may be a thing where maybe its ok but it should get hauled out at the owner's expense, or I negotiate immediate repair out of the cost. Would love your thoughts, and love the channel!
Have you watched the quite recent video of Pat/Frankie, the story is they had a lift out and the boat was not put down properly and has serious cracks around the keel. Would love to know your opinion on whether you would want to repair or scrap it.
Tim, You spoke highly of the Ted Irwin design sailboats I'm surprised they didn't make your short list of large keel to hull surface area bolt on keels... 🤷♂️
What is the opinion on swing down keels? Centerboards that rotate down into position. Do they have a sacrificial sheer bolt that breaks and lets the keel swing back up into the hull if you hit a reef. I do also know that skeg rudders are considered a lot more safe than a pintle mounted rudder. FYI, my sailboat is just a dinky 2-man Hobbie Bravo, and I live nowhere near any oceans. I just putter around freshwater lakes.
I had a Pearson 30 that has an encapsulated keel and it was a performance keel. Only downside was I once grounded her and a rock broke open the encapsulation letter water inside the ballast space. No water in the boat but it took forever to dry out the encapsulated space
Having been on a wooden boat that decided to leak at its (inacessible) keelbolts in the middle of the madagascar channel & coaxing the half full boat back to land I can say without doubt that bolt on keels are a disaster waiting to happen!😮
You didn't mention Hallberg Rassy, Swan, x-yachts. These are all bolt on keels. I know they're more expensive, but it would be interesting to know what makes them safer.
There are bolt on keels and there are bolt on keels. All of the pictures you showed even when there was a grid, had the keel bolted to the hull, not the grid. A proper keel grid needs to be added to the hull as the final step of hull lamination when the glass had not yet reached the full cure. Also there should never be core in the hull under the grid. Finally the keel bolts have to be spaced so that they pass through the grid members, not just the hull. Why don't builders like Benneteau, etc. do these things? Because it costs more money. There is nothing wrong with a properly built hull with a bolt on keel. It just needs to be done correctly. I have been involved with building performance oriented hulls with bolt on keels. Those hulls had no core where the grid was located. Instead they had lots of extra laminations of biaxial fabric. The keel grid was laminated into the hull so that it was integral part of the hull, not just glued down with 5200 and 100% of he keel bolts passed through the keel grid, not the hull between grid members as your picture at 7:36 shows. Losing the keel on a boat built that way would involve ripping the entire grid out of the hull.
Excellent information to share…. As for pulling grounded boats off, I’ve rarely pulled them off. A few weeks ago, we pulled one off the rocks by attaching a 200 foot line (I keep onboard) to the grounded boat’s halyard and pulled the mast down and floated the boat off the rocks. I find this technique to be much safer and causes the least amount of damage to keel. Of course, this technique may not be possible in all situations.. The only mess to pick up will inside the cabin if things were not put away… 😊
Well a good idea has two people thinging about it.
On the Island of Lefkas the harbour of Vasiliki has a sandbar on the Starboard as you exit the I was on a Flotilla sailing holiday back in my favourite Greek Islands, I was one of three on a 30ft, we rotated captain daily, One of us was a submariner, who sailed dinghys, one was a Lasser dinghy racer, I was the only one with experience, with cruising boats, So when we grounded leaving harbour that morn(Wasn't my day as skipper I was having a ear infection sorted)I realised what had happend shouted to the helm to go astern, and dashed forward and grabbed the M/sheet halyard and calling on the one other onboard to help we both jumped over the Starboard rail, a few moments, later the boat slid back into a floating position, 👍👍🤏
Thank mate a good talk about keels, your spot on, I've just done a major refit on my keel. a Formosa 56 in Australia. . . . in my experience . . one weakness about full keels getting grounded for new captains and where the rudder is at the same depth and level as the keel is that it is common for an inexperienced captain to try to get out of the situation in reverse when in mud or sand . . . . the rudder unless absolutely straight can (and will) dig into the mud or sand forcing the over stress of the steering system and snap cables and pop hydraulic lines. (speaking from experience) the safest for me is an fin keel that is deeper but in conjunction with a skeg hung rudder.
Theres just something special about a traditional style full keel blue water boat.
Yep the special thing is that........... The keels don't drop off.
@@rachelmoore5703 That’s true of most all moulded in keels. Not just full keels. My KP 44 and Cal 46 were not full keel but large and extended fins that in tens of thousands of miles of ocean cruising never had any problem of any kind. But yes. The ultimate in over all strength is full keel attached rudder. But there is good and viable compromise that is well worth the trade off.
Videos like this make me appreciate my Ericson 31 Independence more and more. Encapsulated lead fin keel and transom hung rudder that can be removed while in the water. Not bad for a mid-1970s design. Thanks Bruce King.
👍👍I'm for fully encapsulated, or swing keels.
@@carlthor91 -- strong design is key. I love the idea of a _swing keel_ or _lifting keel_ yet to do it correct, the boat should be built like an upside down tank!
Southerly's, built maybe 10 or 20 years ago, fit the bill - yet they are typically pricey.
This was a strong boat specifically designed for cruising. Not many around. You’re lucky to have one
@@drx1xym154 Lifting keel like C&C Mega 30, not so much, raced and cruised on one for 4 seasons. Great performance, a little bit too delicate, just rubbing over a rock 😞
Completely agree. And I have no problem with bolt on keel. The structural integrity is all about contact area and aspect ratio of the keel.
Very good review with clear cut criteria. Any auto driver knows that millions are on the road. Which car design do you want if your in an accident. Volvo, Mercedes, the owner / driver has to be responsible for there own decision........ It's not a game of chance, it is not Poker, if one says it is like Poker, then stay home and play out of our way on the water. .... Enough said. Thanks from a YT follower/ offshore ketch owner now on the hook on the Canary islands.
Lots to think about! Especially when you consider the sailors maxim: “There are two types of sailors! Those who have run aground… and those that lie not haven run aground! “ 😊
My Cal ll-46 is still crossing oceans at 51 yrs old! Never any keel problem. Nor any other structural problems. This is a very accommodating boat that can sail 200 mile days on passage. Oh yes, the walk in engine/equipment room with full standing headroom and work bench with vise and drill press is kind of nice too! And my wife and I love the 17” of galley space. Sometimes old is better.
@@roadboat9216 isn’t the keel a long encapsulated keel but with a spade rudder?
@@mfournier12 That is correct. I almost didn’t buy it when I saw that. But! Bill Lapworth and Jensen marine built a very robust boat. The spade is attached at the hull AND another massive bearing above. Very robust. The handling characteristics at sea were excellent, exceptional. I bought a little ray marine wheel pilot to be used just when motoring in calm conditions as a back up. It was designed for smaller boats to 16K #. We were a large 46 foot ketch of over 35K# loaded. It could steer us in worst case scenario, downwind in a gale. And it DID. The pilot was a toy but that’s just how well the boat behaved. It would wear it out sooner so I didn’t do that for extended periods. But was soooooo glad that I bought this boat. There are exceptions.
This is an interesting but rather superficial and non technical post. The reality is a bit more complex. I have been designing and building boats for 55 years in the yachting industry working around the world. In 1967 we had the beginnings of GRP and 1969 the IOR rule which saw the move to fin keels on flat bottomed designs. This gave us a lot of new problems. I was with C&N and then moved to Carter building the Carter 33 etc. In the early days we simply overbuilt. Later designs were lighter and our materials improved to allow lower resin to glass ratios. Then the CGF part of IOR vanished increasing stability and bulb keels appeared with low chord ratios giving a problem of smaller attachment area to the hull. Many yachters don't understand the complex forces acting on fin keels, especially bulb keels, which have basic static mechanical loads and the dynamic lift forces to counter not to mention the rather unpredicatble inertial forces due to motion in a seaway. Then there is grounding. With the long lever arm and the weight/speed of the vessel can overstress a single bolt at quite low speed which, if undetected, leads to a progressive failure of all the bolts. Also people think that FRP is homogenous ( like a metal ) It is not - the structure is a laminate and can be subject to progressive interlaminar shear for a variety of reasons. Poor quality control. Too much or too little resin etc etc etc. The layers can tear apart due to failure of the resin bond. So a small crack can progressivley overload the remaining structure. Most accidents are different and need to be properly researched. This post is pleasant but technically uninformed. Chris Freer - yacht designer and builder
Thanks for the additional insight into sailboat design! Super helpful to put things in perspective.
Delamination seems to be a factor because there is no glass reinforcement to hold the layers together. I was brought up to believe that you can't rely on adhesive (resin) alone or fixings (glass strands) on their own, but you need both together. So the problem might be building the hull as a laminate structure in the first place. The hull would be better made as a homogeneous structure involving resin and short strands in all directions through the hull thickness. I remember earlier attempts to achieve this by applying a mixture of resin and short strands to the mold in one application of full thickness. That way you end up with a fully homogeneous hull material such as you would get in say ferrocement. Another approach might be to build a fully 'stand alone' structure incorporating the mast step, keel anchorage, and shroud chainplates. An approach which was used in small boat construction years ago.
Oh wow, what a great comment. Chris Freer taking time to comment is so kool. Wish he had a RUclips channel.
Thank you Chris, you mention briefly about laminate, and resin advances over the years. John Kretchmer is a friend and had mentioned this as well, that newer laminates and techniques allowed for less thickness and weight in the layup. Do you have a resource that I can read in detail about this technique? HR boats have bolt but the bilge is deep and slanted aft which should provide additional stability and strength. Should all designers be doing this??
@@sailinghaldis I can't add much to what I wrote as a general comment. All yacht designs are different so there is no universal solution. It is case based. There are also differences in materials - fibre type - glass, kevlar etc and resin types - polyester, eopxy etc.not to mention budget and the builders reputation. It is up to the designer and the regulating body ABS, MCA, RCD etc etc to arrive at a solution for the individual design. When I started in GRP yachts in the 60's it was overbuild, bucket and chuck it 'engineering - but no more. The work must be carried out by professionals. Certainly outside the remit of 'practical sailor' because its about the numbers not the mythology and 'opinions'. The Titanic sub is a classic example of misuse of materials by an amateur who basically killed himself (and his passengers) with a mixture of ego and deafness. Because yachting is basically amateur there are too many unqualified people fielding airy fairy nonsense opinions to make money from hits on RUclips. Sorry I can't help more.
I am an aeronautical engineer now dabbling in nautical engineering. I agree that the distance between the bolts should be wide so as to decrease the loading on the hull. If not, the structures that you have shown for narrow bolt widths are woefully inadequate. They put the keel bottom in flat plate bending, something that would require a very thick bottom and a very wide area. It is no wonder that for these cases the keel can rip the bottom out of the boat. If I bought a used boat with a narrow width bolt keel, I would design and build an internal framework in aluminum or stainless steel to take the vertical boat loads and move the reaction points outwards onto the hull ribs. That would remove the local vertical loading on the bottom of the hull fiberglass and move it to the ribs.
I helped a friend ‘fixing up’ an old wooden sailing boat* fitted with a finn keel….
And did EXACTLY what you described above!
Without any calculations or timewasting I fabricated a steel frame from bits of steel profiles kicking about, little time no money….
But ANY physics-aware person is worried looking at a 4 inch wide base whereto a keel with a huge bulb at the bottom end is mounted; surely at an older wooden boat!!
My own sailing boat is a Laurin Koster 28, a full keel double ender; for me NO FINN KEEL!!!!….. ever!
* a Kolibri 560; a wooden Dutch ‘cold-moulded’ sailing yacht dating back to the ‘60s; MANY were sold!!
I have had a Pearson 25 for 52 years. In the first five years, the mooring I bought in Hyannis Bay, MA was a problem. The owner did not tell of the shallow low tide (
Ok Tim, you talked me into it. I’m setting my sights on a Rustler 42, encapsulated keel and all.
I enjoy watching you and listening to your advice on boats and sailing. I'm dreaming of purchasing a 40 ish foot Ketch sailboat and living on it.
Look up the report on the MaxFun 35 where a keel failure resulted in death of crew member. the hull design was very robust with the keel socketed into the hull. The keel design as specified by the builder utilized a steel fabricated fin with a lead bulb at the bottom. The keel fabricator modified the design for apparently easier fabrication but was much less robust and relied on fillet welds to attach the fin to the top plate. These welds were of poor penetration and ultimately resulted in fatigue cracking and failure.
The top plate stayed firmly attached to the hull which allowed to boat to stay afloat.
My old boat was an Ericson 25, Centerboard. Possibly the last one with the original centerboard.
When I pulled it out the centerboard was hanging on with just a little 50 year old spray foam.
I was thankfully able to trace it out and rebuild it.
The advantage of this Ericson design is the boat still has 2,500 pounds of lead encapsulated at the bottom of the hull.
As a result most people whom lost their centerboard while out sailing ( and there have been several cases ) never even knew they lost it until they reached the shore.
My new boat has a full encapsulated lead keel. Exactly what I wanted.
Yes she's slow, and can be a bugger in tight spaces. However she is tough and reliable.
Another very informative and very needed video!
Good job Tim
I followed your channel for a couple of years now following you on practical sailor
Have enjoyed the videos on practical sailor a great deal.
Enjoying this short video very much
Encapsulated keels are often a real problem after a grounding too. And if post grounding damage is not fixed and finds its way into the ballast keel it's a big job and nightmare by all accounts.
All one can do is maintain and check keelbolts (go for stainless) and know the odd are good that you won't lose your keel it's a rare occurrence.
Expedition Evans sail an oceanis they repaired themself, grid matrix and everything. It's probably stronger than original.
Batwing of Seattle was built in 1974. I sailed it across the Pacific by the scenic route. Owner 2 circumnavigated. Owners 3 sailed it from Bellingham to S. America. It's still going strong. The internal ballast was lead pigs and lead shot. No bolts were involved, and no frames. The masts were solid and unstayed. It's still going strong! It had a huge sail area of well over 700 sq ft in a junk rig. It is 34' long. The ballast was 6,000 pounds, and the displacemet is 18,000 pounds. Longish keel, designed by Ed Monk sr. 50 years old!
We had a boat in our racing fleet lose its keel and sink between New Orleans and Key West Race Week. It was Peregrine, a 72' sloop. It had some modifications beforehand that included mast & keel modifications. The keel came off in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico late one night and ripped a large hole in the bottom of the boat. The boat sunk within two minutes and all 6 crew managed to get into the life raft. They spent two days in the raft before getting picked up by a Greek Freighter and brought to Mobile, Alabama. According to Sailing World magazine, the boat washed up on the beach near Tampa Bay six months or so later.
Then the boat didn't sink
Good video, again! The Hanse 470, 540 and a few other's have a steel grid frame for the keel, mast and rigging
As an engineer and fast boat skipper you have raised some good issues. Bolt on keels can work if the top is far greater than the bottom. I have seen kevlar torn on hulls from upside down keel boats for sale. I even sailed a repaired keel boat across atlantic with great fear. Far safer to loss a knot and have a boat that get you home.
Keels don’t just fall off. We, people, love to blame materials, when something goes wrong. One has to look at the human factors. I agree, bolted keels are more likely to fail. So knowing that, one should inspect the integrity of the assembly regularly. Especially after a grounding.
Mostly after a grounding, if no water comes in, we want to believe everything is fine……
Great article. The one thing you didn't mention is ballast material. In a grounding/impact, lead ballast will more easily deform, lowering the loads transmitted into the hull as compared to a steel or concrete ballast. The Catalina 42 MkII uses lead. Most of the French boats use steel. The Oyster w/ the hull section ripped off that you showed had used concrete.
I recently acquired a Morgan 41 outisland aft cabin. Despite the poor performance, I am thrilled that it has a full keel. I've had it anchored in an area where one tide got so low that it tipped over and allowed me to scrape some muck off of the bottom, essentially careening it unintentionally. I wouldn't feel comfortable careening a boat with a bolt on keel. I plan on going offshore and I understand a full keel is much more comfortable and I never ever want to worry that the keel will fall off in the middle of the ocean.
Wood yachts all had bolt on keels. Internal ballast was used in wooden commercial ships. Keel bolts were drawn and inspected every few years.
Issue with keels falling off typically comes from like what has been said grounding hard n not inspecting for damage or doing repairs properly
@@Malibus_Most_Wanted
Reading these brilliant comments, I realise that my bolt-on keel needs to be taken down to check the keelbolts.
The hull has not been repaired well from an earlier grounding - keel trailing edge has sunk into the hull and the flooring panels rock bc the beams are not straight on top.
Well the light and fast boat I bought in '22 was cheap for its 36 feet so I don't really mind. Have two other sailingboats to keep me sailing (only summer, too much ice in the winter :)
Glassfiber can be repaired to be stronger than the original. With epoxy & skill that is.
Hi Tim, useful advice as per usual - and I just bought a First 35.7 with bolt on keel - it has been tapped at some point and the inner hull formers / stringers at the rear of the keel have been professionally repaired under the insurance by the previous owner
I hadn’t really sussed out the implications of this until I’d done a lot more research culminating with this latest video - I’d welcome your opinion as to whether this is unlikely to be an issue or, conversely, a drama waiting to happen….?
Thank you for that which you do, I hope the younger sailors start to realise, their is more to boating that needs your attention, than just does this boat look good on me,
Thank you Tim! Great episode 😊
Check out Rovers Adventure. He built a 22' junk rig with 2 keels. Previously he had reconditioned a Contessa and set sail to circumnavigate, but Covid forced him to return home, so he built his own boat from plans from a naval architect friend. Last posting he was on his way to the Azores.
I've gone with a fully encapsulated keel, but it is not the "full" keel types you showed in your video. I have grounded in mud and sand and just backed off under my own engine power. This specific boat has lead ballast so the problems you mentioned with concrete and steel should not appear. It's not easy to find this combination of encapsulated lead keel and fairly modern keel design, but they do exist. But it really depends upon where one of going to sail and how much time they will spend sailing. It also depends upon how someone is going to sail. Few people are really going off-shore, most are coastal cruising and potentially do some weekend club racing.
Interesting … what’s your yacht design do I can research more thanks?
We grounded on a sandbank a few weeks ago on a full-keel Rustler 31. Also got loose quickly using wind and engine. The owner wasn't worried at all; would be just some damaged paint if anything.
It is a big mater of what you want to do with your boat. Friends once ran aground with a First 40.7 causing severe damage. The repair did cost 40.000€ on the price level of about 15 years ago. It was a charter-boat and I sailed it a year later myself. The repair was well done and it was the stiffest First 40.7 I ever sailed. In the repair they removed a lot of the matrix, glued it back i and then glassed over in. This easily gave the boat 50kg additional but it was really stiff. Something you could feel when trimming the rig. It trimmed different (better) then other 40,7 ...
We use the boats for baltic sea sailing. There is a harbor every few miles. Even if you damage your boat severely it is very likely that you can limp home, perhaps wait for calm weather, motor home and organize a buddy boat for safety.
I am quite some years older now looking for potentially an own boat. My issue is that I would want to leave the baltic sea. There would be no more harbors every few miles and on my very few offshore passages I already saw a floating container. We passed it in a distance of perhaps 20 meters and I saw it when it was right next to us.
The question is whether you insist on a boat that you expect to be able to "limp home" a 1000 miles or whether it is ok to you to accept a boat where you grab s cushion, press it onto a leak and motor to the next harbor. You can do that for 10 miles but you can not do that for 1000 miles.
But there is a lot more:
Does the boat have a system of watertight bulkheads?
Is the boat a light weight racer or a robust cruiser or is it just cheaply made to the minimum of some standards?
Can you improve it with realistic measures?
The biggest problem on this topic is that there are no crash tests like on cars.
Running aground or hitting a container is no official test so cheaply made boats are not designed for it.
Not completely the cheap end perhaps tells you about using Kevlar in the impact zones - how much Kevlar do they use and do they test it ;) ?
It is an extremely emotional topic as well...
I'm a fan of lifting keels that socket into a robust carbon or glass structure that has no bolts or welds. I've run aground many times at speed and have no concerns of keel structural issues.
Not everyone’s cup of tea I know, but here in the uk we have twin keels, long and shallow, encapsulated and bolt on, so much fun, run in to the beach and you can let the tide go, wait a few hours refloat and away you go,
Absolutely love the bilge keeler.
Respect to the sailors. Thats a lot to deal with. I was raised on the water and know just enough to know I cant deal with that lol. Much admiration to those who can.
I am one of those 'old salts' that would never go offshore with a short fin. Not because of keel failure which is uncommon but because of the much more common incidents of rudder failure and performance in heavy weather. Whatever the keel arrangement I want the rudder to be supported by the keel or at least a skeg. I also want a keel with sufficient area to support the boat when stalled. Narrow fins prevent leeway by effectively 'flying' upwind relying on attack angle, high aspect ratio and speed to do so. All very fast and efficient. When hove too or jogging slowly because of bad weather this keel design tends to stall leaving the boat making several knots sideways and unable to point into the waves which makes a knockdown much more likely. For a race boat with a full crew this is not an issue, they are not going to 'batten Down' anyway. For a short handed, especially older, crew you will really appreciate the traditional stratagem of 'hovng too and putting the kettle on' that a substantial keel allows.
heaving to?
@@Raging.Geekazoidbasic sailing technique for riding out heavy weather. Some boats do it better than others.
@@lrfiv It's heaving, not hoving.
@Raging.Geekazoid The past tense was, " we were hove to".
@@leeoldershaw956 Correct.
... I also wonder, that how many people realize that the structural mesh as seen in the video at 2:55 is wrongly designed and does not eliminate the severe "point stresses" that the keel bolts impacts towards the hull material during heavy weather sailing? The blue structural construct does not make the keel attachment any stronger (or maybe just a tiny bit). It is a clear design error based on faulty thinking.
My 1984 Freedom Pilothouse 39 Schooner has a lead-encapsulated modified fin keel giving us both great performance and safety. Even after several hard groundings never been a problem - Like the freestanding masts simple strong and virtualy maintenance-free - Original carbon masts will likely last another 40 years
Though I have never designed boats, I used to design buildings and always thought I had a pretty good eye for the load paths in various structures. I thought the big loads acting on a keel to hull joint would result from the pull of the shrouds attempting to overturn the boat. This then would be resisted by a counteracting moment at the keel to hull joint. After looking at the keel to hull joint in my humble Catalina 25, I have often thought that there should be a sturdy set of ribs that would connect the keel attachment point to the shrouds . The matrix mentioned in the video gets the load almost there, but not quite.
Matrices tend to be secondary bonded in polyester
This setup was used in the days of large wooden racers like J boats that were built very light and had huge rigs...the ballast, mast step, chainplates and mast partners could be tied together with what amounted to ring frames to provide the strength needed to hold it all together and the wooden ribs and planking could be minimal. Similar schemes are sometimes used in high performance modern racers where the hull shell basically serves to keep the water out. It's a smart (but costly) solution, but one drawback is that extreme loads that develop can transfer to weaker areas so that internal framing needs to be thoughtfully designed- its like a roll cage in a car; besides rollover safety it can stiffen it and allow for higher performance and better handling but that increases the stresses developed. At the point of failure it then becomes catastrophic and instantaneous rather than allowing flex and twist that can give you some warning that you're on that edge and need to back off. One classic marine example is the Americas Cup class OneAustralia sinking where the mast and keel remained perfectly stable and intact as the rest of the boat folded up around them and sank in well under two minutes...theres a pinned comment from one of the crew on this video that gets into details about how not enough care was taken to plan for longitudinal loading- m.ruclips.net/video/8Yau9A7XDHs/видео.html
Agreed. Like most lay people, the person responsible for this video overlooks lateral forces on the keel. These can be substantial in some grounding situations, as well as knockdowns. As a structural engineer and lifetime sailor I would be perfectly happy with the bolt on keel with a (laterally) skinny fin which was also limited in the fore and aft direction, provided the top of the fin was terminated by a solid, suitably thick horizontal metal flange extending in all directions a considerable distance beyond the fin itself. This flange would be flat on top and rebated into the hull, and that rebate would need to be extensively strengthened inside the boat with an internal grid. The junction of the flange to the fin would also need to be very carefully engineered and beyond reproach.
Apart from cost, an obvious demerit is that you end up with a negative version of the desirable bilge sump. Not a problem given a metal boat which is well detailed against water ingress, however.
Extending the fin up into the boat (into a deep socket) is theoretically as good, but I am less enthusiastic about it as it is difficult to keep tight. If the socket design is tapered, this problem resolves, but removal for maintenance will be difficult and expensive in comparison with the flange.
@@doctorpancake5848 In building design, we employed a design philosophy that would prevent the abrupt, catastrophic failure that you mention above. For example, in reinforced concrete design, the amount of tension steel is limited, to insure that the initial failure is an observable deflection which occurs prior to concrete fracture.
This procedure is mandated by code.
The older Catalina boats made in Woodland Hills California carried a nickname with him. The Catalina SMILE I know my 30 had a Catalina smile in the front of the keel where it meets the hall every time it would be hauled out there would be a crack going around the front of the fiberglass where it met the hall and I know for a fact, it was never run grounded
All of the boats that I have owned have had bolt on keels. I have never felt completely comfortable with that but, I have sailed the boats hard, covered great distances and haven't had a problem. That said I'm always concerned that the bolts and ballast are made of different metals, and may or may not have been installed properly. What concerns me most is that I can't inspect them and really have to trust that I'm ok. I have always invested more than I wanted to into a good life raft that I damn sure installed correctly.... I sure hope whom ever packed it did their job right.... I think I'll go for a nice relaxing sail now :~)
I changed the keel bolts on my Moody 46. The nuts on the studs had corroded to the size of tennis balls. Had to remove the mast before taking the keel off. Expensive project but I’m happier now it’s done 👍😊
Great video and for some reason the first one you've done for PS that I've liked.
Thank you very much for this video. In our search for used sailing yachts for our round-the-world trip, we found an incredible number of boats with broken stringers, rusted keel bolts and loose keels. For us, only boats with encapsulated keels come into question. We keep asking ourselves why keels weighing several tons are only ever attached to the hull and not directly to the stringers. How is a hull that is perhaps made of 2.5 cm (1inch) thick GRP with such a small bearing surface and ridiculously small support surface supposed to absorb the forces that arise when sailing or at the slightest grounding?
For us, these are floating death traps and that's why we won't sail something like this. Cheers from Germany, Juergen
I agree 100% of what you just said
Thanks for posting. Educational.
The best option is to keep the keel away from the bottom. Know where you are, don’t just go where it looks wet.
Thanks! Island Packet is the best!
I was on a charter boat that ran aground in Malta ... and a seacock sheared opening a hole. I was amazed at how quickly the boat began to sink. The captain started tearing floor boards up looking for the leak so I gently nudged the boat onto a sandy beach. No plugs on board so we used a wine bottle cork. Shows that running aground has many dangers.
A wine bottle cork filled the hole from a ripped off seacock???? Please.
Getting stuck with a full keel boat in a grounding, is always better than serious damage that grounding a fin could do.
Another pluses of a full keel boat is the usually have a gentler motion at sea, are shallower draft and far less likely to pick up lobster or crab pot.
I just spent 2 weeks in the mine field of lobster pots in Maine, on my full keel Bayfield, and didn't have to worry at all. We did see a fin keel boat I a yard getting new engine mounts an strut repairs caused by a tangled pot line on the exposed prop.
Just a bit more food for thought when looking at boats.
Yes many don't consider the full or modified encapsulated keel and keel or skeg hung rudder vs a bolted on fin keel and spade rudder when they buy a boat. Those are all the coastal cruisers who lost their spade rudder to an orca also.
Take a lesson form car accident studies. We need to design a deformable crash zone layer between the main ballast and the hull, Such that a hard strike allows the hull to decelerate by deforming this layer even if the keel hits sold rock. The keel position will be displaced by the distance it takes to decelerate the hull. Sounds expensive? Save the keel and save the hull by having a disposable (maybe lead) layer between them. The least amount of material to replace after a hard hit.
Every time I watch these PS videos - and Lady K Sailing videos - I further narrow down my boat choice. Love the content!!
What is currently on your list? I am doing the same
2004 Hunter 36, 2008 Bavaria Cruiser 40, and possibly a 2002 Catalina 42 MKII. But I don’t love the galley configuration in the Catalina. Your list?
@GreatCreative hey there. Thank you for sharing. I too love the hunter. Looking at the 50CC. Found a Jeanneau 54 sun odyssey that we really like n seems to have all the systems. Last option a Beneteau 473 that looks to be in fantastic shape n has everything ready for long-term live aboard. I still need a lot more education to truly know whats gonna be best. Looking at 3 years sailing the islands n we want to cross the Atlantic. Add we are looking around the same year models. 2004 to 2010.
@@jesuschrist-alphaomega I like your list. My personal favorites are the Catalina 42 or the Beneteau 473. I know a guy who hit a shipping container at 6 knots with a 473 in the Caribbean and was able to make it to port on his own. Major damage but the keel took the hit and stayed on.
Do you feel lucky? Lets see, 72 keel failures since 1984. That's less than 2 a year. Beneteau has built over 25,000 1st series boats since 1977. That doesn't include their more popular Oceanus and Cyclades series. If you want to factor in Jeaneau, Catalina, Bavariia and all the other manufactures that use this method you're probably talking over a couple hundred thousand units produce. I'm guessing your odds are pretty good of staying upright
Nice boats, all. We’ll be primarily recreational in the BC coast from Vancouver to Haida Gwaii.
My boat is a bilge keel Sadler 29. It has two keels made of iron bolted on for several feet along the hull. It's made to take ground at low tide. It seems to be phenomenally strong, and I haven't noticed any problems so far. A British design, it's over 40 years old.
For better behavior in heavy weather I'll stay with a full keel. Heaves to beautifully.
I would like to learn more about the swing keel designs for the Beneteau and other large boats. My 1985 Starwind 19 has a swing keel that stows up inside a shoal draft keel with lead plates either side. The board itself appears to have a wood core. I have run aground a few times and even forgot to raise the keel before sailing onto my trailer, without any damage. A few years ago I raised the boat on my lift and replaced the keel pendant line. Swing keel board looked good. I have had this boat for 39 years and have modified a few things, but never had any issues with this keel design.
I've rebedded at least 6 keels for various reasons. Never fun... but I can tell you this... those that were bolted on with 3M 5200... we're the hardest to separate. More mating surface the better. Andy Bogaart - Bogaart Boats.
Great explanation 👍
Excellent video!
I love the Garcia exploration line. What are your thoughts on swing keels?
And eg. ovni from alubat, if you hit something the keel swings up
Halberd Rassey, contest, najad, oyster and some more have excellent keel configuration.
Consider the sailboats that lost their keels. Cheeki Rafiki was a Bénéteau First 40.7, which is know to be their racer version of a cruising vessel, where weight vs speed is the top priority. So they're built fast with light weigh laminate schedules and materials and hitting something catastrophic is the least of their concerns, vs what kind of speeds they can get from that hull. That type of built sacrifices build strength and durability for racing performance. Also, other consequent keel issues came from other performance light weight racing vessels. Also other designs from the 80's and early 90's where higher tech materials and resins were not used. Today, the lessons have been used to add strength where needed and materials and resins that are higher strengths and performances.
This is one of the biggest reasons some old boats are generally better at bluewater cruising.
What about directional stability? Very important when you enter a tidal harbor with a swell. It happens that a wave pushes the yacht of course and gets it stranded. Just a point to consider when you plan to cruise outside your comfort zone.
Great video! Glad you mentioned the Catalina 42 as that is a spectacular boat - I owned one for 12 years and not only a solid cruiser but we won lots of races. I think the Mark I and Mark II are the same as far as the keel is concerned though, with the primary difference being the shape of the transom and cockpit above the waterline. All of that said the best way to go fast and avoid having a keel fall off is to get a multihull!
Not running aground is the best way.
@@jamesthornton9399 That would eliminate the main root cause!
For a cruising boat the only thing that makes sense to me is a full encapsulated leadkeel with a keel hung rudder. Have a cutaway forefoot if you want it a bit more kindle nimble when turning.
The thing is people want race features on their boats for the bragging rights just like they want aero kits on their cars, but these features on a cruisong boat can get you killed (unlike on your car)
Thanks Tim, I'd still prefer a well made encapsulated keel. There are just less points of failure, important if the boat is getting on in age. Coming first on a Thursday night doesn't interest me, I play poker for my competitive streak lol. ⚓
Great topic but the next question is: how to inspect the keel bolts? Do I have to drop the keel or is there some testing which can be done? I have a 1994 hunter 40.5. Surface suferficial rusting is par for the course but what about crevis corrosion or other keel bolt malidies?
I am looking for a 42 to 50 foot sailboat to cross oceans. I recently passed on a Gulfstar 50 which is considered a very good blue water boat. My concern was the keel. It is a lead and concrete keel. Concrete is a great material in compression. But it has almost no strength in tension and is very brittle because of that. The choice of concrete and lead chunks was something I could not develop confidence with. I'm now looking at 2 Amels - a Maramu and a Santorin. Both are bolted on keels with fairly long contact with the hull. And the bolt on portion is relatively small. They appear to be integral glassed keels with a smaller bolt on section at the bottom. Another advantage to this is the deep bilge that can accept a little water before flooding the cabin sole. The downside is difficulty in cleaning the bilge. I've seen a couple of issues with a dirty bilge (hair and fibers) plugging the bilge pump intake or siphon break. As with most things, everything is about balancing the compromises made with each configuration. I'm leaning heavily toward long fin keels with deep bilges.
My friend lost his bolted on keel, in the early 90s, between the Bahamas and Puerto Rico. The sailboat sank, and he was picked up by a cruise ship.
You should do a video here or on Lady K about swing keels. I think the southerly and even the IP swing keel are great designs... what do you think? I haven't sailed either design.
Maintain your ground tackle regularly and deploy it immediately upon getting stuck
I know many boats in my club that have done circumnavigations with bolt on keels whereas the full keel ‘blue water boats’ in my club havent even left the country
That's because they're smart enough to know how risky it is for small under crewed boats to circumnavigate.
I took a chance on a 7’ bolt on keel on a very used1982 custom wooden 42’ sloop w/ a fiberglass shell that was made in New Zealand.
During the hull survey, my surveyor paid special attention to wood rot-but he also inspected the keel bolts and the joint below the waterline. His written and verbal comments included that ‘overall build quality was among the best he’d ever seen!’
During my transit down from Mystic, CT, I ran aground several times in the Chesapeake Bay (due to having tons of stuff and an even deeper keel than designed) with limited damage found after an year long haulout to re-rig the vessel.
If one buys a boat w/ a bolt on keel, it is incumbent by the owner to do regular, keel inspections, both above and below the w/l!
Great video, thanks for sharing!!
Erik
Yes, beware corrosion in the bolts.
Had a Tahiti ketch. Bolt on keel, but indestructible. The ultimate in low performance
Very good analysis.
Do you feel lucky? Lets see, 72 keel failures since 1984. That's less than 2 a year. Beneteau has built over 25,000 1st series boats since 1977. That doesn't include their more popular Oceanus and Cyclades series. If you want to factor in Jeaneau, Catalina, Bavariia and all the other manufactures that use this method you're probably talking over a couple hundred thousand units produce. I'm guessing your odds are pretty good of staying upright
Encapsulated keel 1989 Irwin 44. We touched a cement wall at 1 knt in the icw just S of cape fear. Cracked the glass, water intruded and the repair was extensive. Cement was granulated around the impact area. We now own a C400. I love this one my wife loves the old.
SV Sandii
It’s disingenuous to only talk about total keel failures and not mention the amount of boats with keel bolt damage, delamination and other issues that come with bolt-on keels, which is sometimes irreversible and/or financially prohibitive and impractical to fix. Take those into account and do the math again.
Add to that the difference in rudder design and suddenly your point is moot.
Hardly. As a delivery Captain, I’ve sailed all those boats. They ALL have some level of keel failure. Almost ALL Catalina keels rock back and forth, a little. There were 20 years of bolt ons, that hang from plywood reinforced keelsons. 2 out of 1000 keels that are loose, fall off
@@mkunes2502 where did you get that info from. Would like to read that study.
I'm sure that knowledge was very comforting to the people in an upside down cabin rapidly filling with water.
I bought a Pearson 26 in 1972, took it down to the Florida keys and back, and spent graduate school living on it and commuting in it from Woods Hole, MA to Southwest harbor ME. In Mass. I bought a mooring in Hyannis Harbor. The seller lied and the depth was not the claimed 5+ feet at low tide. My sailboat (4 ft keel) grounded out on sand every low tide.. A couple of years later (1975), when I moved it to Southwest Harbor, the boat yard discovered that the bolt threads on the bolted keel were almost gone. They rehung it for me. Forty years later, my boatyard (the other one went out of business) found that the bolts were corroding and they rehung it for me using marine grade hard ware. All good. The bottom line is to have your boatyard throughly assess your keel and its bolts regularly. I just passed the Pearson to my 32-year old son and he is enjoying it greatly. Meanwhile, I bought a 1967 Bristol 35.5 with a massively enclosed keel that weighs as much as the whole Pearson 26. It was indoor storage all these years and still is. It is in great shape and I just put in a new Yammer diesel. With a full and enclosed keel, this is a solid boat that is very reliable (8 knots with just the genoa). The Pearson was overbuilt as was the Bristol. No complaint here.
I do have to mention that, after 3 and half years of living on the Pearson 26 and using it a lot, the rudder broke off on the way to Nantucket from Hyannis and I had to use the sails and outboard to get to the west end of Martha's Vineyard. I called the company and they were amazed and also happy. The tiller post was quarter inch thick inaluminum pipe poured full with epoxy resin. They had no idea how long it would last. They said it looked like about 12 years due to my constant usage. It was not expensive to have a new rudder sent to me.
Because it wasn't adequately attached. End of story. Next question. And you can break anything, if you try hard enough, and especially if you ignore the need for maintenance. Anyway. if I can bolt wings onto an aircraft adequately then it can be done, if you use the right structure and hardware. Aerobatic planes use a handful of bolts to attach the wings. Expedition Evans rebuilt the structure of their 49' Beneteau. The matrix wasn't ever well attached and got broken free when it was grounded. Beneteau wouldn't even reveal what the original glue was. If you can glue Airbus wings together you can glue that matrix into the boat... if you do it right. On those aircraft wings the glue is stronger than the alloy being joined, partially because it is extremely thin. The Expedition Evans rebuild massively improved on the original glue and conceal job. Instead of glassing the grid to the hull, Beneteau made the grid with tabs included, then glued the tabs to the hull with something that is not strong enough. And Beneteau wasn't too careful about making sure the matrix was very close to the hull, so the glue joint would be thin. The grid, being able to flex separate from the hull, also cracked. So they removed everything that was not just fiberglass structure then glassed the boat together. Here's the episode where they look at the failure. ruclips.net/video/kb-B1t2DhDA/видео.html
You forget to mention that bolt on keels most hangs on a boat that’s floats higher.
Those sail faster and over the water . A fixed in capsules keel is often a boat that is slower but goose true the water.
I prefer a boat that moves true the water. Like a S shaped hull. It’s more comfortable..
Going to fast on a wave loading rudder control is not what I seek.
Try to tow a Bavaria 44 of a benetau 50 .. the guy on the helm has a massive job keeping it lined up with the tow.
Having a hull that go’s true the water with fixed keel it way more feasible .
My 45' Vic Carpenter sailboat has a stainless steel keel bolted on with about 24 large bolts. No problems with the bolts, but the keel needs West System epoxy on the s/s before applying the fairing material. This 45 year old yacht is just like new.
My nicholson 32ft from 1965 has long keel with over 3 metric tons of led in it, she ways 7.3 metric tons. Heavy laid up with fiberglass. Not the fastest but with a good blow when others reef she can stil go under full sail. Oldschool strong boat. Most of em built still sailing.
I belonged to a sailing club that had a 26ft Catalina with a winged keel. I was basically a newbie in a club full of wannabes. Every year, for the five years I was with them, when the boat was on the hard the keel always had spots where the filler had seperated out leaving gaps especially where the hull mates to the keel. Their collective attitude was just slap on some epoxy filler and paint over it it will be fine.
Then one day I went for a sail with the chair of the keelboat committee and watched as he intentionally ran close astern across the wake of a large tug pushing multiple barges up river. Well the boat was just whipsawed and twisting back and forth, whoopee was his reaction. We had his 10 year old daughter on board and was doing this for her entertainment.
It then finally clicked why every year the boat's keel was in such a shape. I tried finding the keel bolts but they seemed not readily accessible and left the club soon after. I did send him an article I saw about keels detaching from the hull. Don't know if he put teo and two together though.
I know a nice oyster 37, bolt on keel which hit the ground, sits on the hard for 13 years now, was repaired but they heared cracking noises lifting it to go back in the water. The owner never touched her again and bought a new boat. I did a low bid on her. Just sitting there rotting away now.
We love our Hallberg-Rassy Monsun encapsulated keel. 😊
Little did we know 44 years ago when we bought a 6 year old Morgan 41 O. I. ketch and sailed only Florida and The Bahamas for 29 years, that if we were going offshore, that's the best type of boat. Solid glass hull, 10,000 lbs. of encapsulated lead full keel with fully protected prop. No Mainsail reefing necessary, just drop it completely when wind exceeded 20 25 kts. or at night. With the metal mast slides the main could be raised or lowered in a minute without a winch. Look at the beaches in the Spanish Med islands littered with the remains of dozens of fin keel, spade rudder, saildrive boats after the recent storm. Some full keel boats were there also but their salvage will be far easier and less costly.
I have a '74 Morgan IO sloop. I'm extremely happy with my choice.
That’s why I like full keel boats.
I have a Catalina 42 fin, the fibreglass keel stub portion which is part of the hull that forms the bilge is very deep , the lead is attached to this portion. There are tranverse hull stringers that cross the hull and go into this deep keel stub, this design is very different from the Cheeki Rafiki bolt on keel, yes less wetted area on those type of designs but not very forgiving in a hard grounding.
How many Catalina keels have fallen off?
BTW, great video very informative thanks.
I'm looking at buying a 1979 Islander 32 mk2. It has a lead encapsulated keel but its more a fin keel shape than a full keel (the 5'3" keel variant). It has had as least 1 grounding on Lake Travis in Austin. I have had the boat surveyed and a diver check the underside. There is an impact damage spot about 5 inches long (the diver's hand basically covered it) on the leading edge bottom tip of the keel, but no cracks seen by the diver. The lead might be partially exposed but only a little if so. Everything else checks out with the survey. Is this the type of thing that I should run from or take in stride as "xxxx happens in a lake" and its just minor but should be patched up? If there aren't delaminations or cracks can I be "mostly" confident I'm ok? I have a fiberglass specialist looking at the images/videos to see his take and get a guesstimate on repair. It may be a thing where maybe its ok but it should get hauled out at the owner's expense, or I negotiate immediate repair out of the cost. Would love your thoughts, and love the channel!
the Cape Dorys and my current Allied Seawind 30 used all lead ballast....one piece lowered in and glassed ouer
I have a1998 Cabo Rico 38XL and never worry about the keel.The ballast is encapsulated lead so its like a 2nd hull at the bottom of the keel.
Have you watched the quite recent video of Pat/Frankie, the story is they had a lift out and the boat was not put down properly and has serious cracks around the keel. Would love to know your opinion on whether you would want to repair or scrap it.
unless you're racing; my opinion is that skeg-hung rudder on a full keel is the safest way to cruise
Tim,
You spoke highly of the Ted Irwin design sailboats I'm surprised they didn't make your short list of large keel to hull surface area bolt on keels... 🤷♂️
The Irwin boats I know of are encapsulated
What is the opinion on swing down keels? Centerboards that rotate down into position. Do they have a sacrificial sheer bolt that breaks and lets the keel swing back up into the hull if you hit a reef.
I do also know that skeg rudders are considered a lot more safe than a pintle mounted rudder.
FYI, my sailboat is just a dinky 2-man Hobbie Bravo, and I live nowhere near any oceans. I just putter around freshwater lakes.
I had a Pearson 30 that has an encapsulated keel and it was a performance keel. Only downside was I once grounded her and a rock broke open the encapsulation letter water inside the ballast space. No water in the boat but it took forever to dry out the encapsulated space
Having been on a wooden boat that decided to leak at its (inacessible) keelbolts in the middle of the madagascar channel & coaxing the half full boat back to land I can say without doubt that bolt on keels are a disaster waiting to happen!😮
You didn't mention Hallberg Rassy, Swan, x-yachts. These are all bolt on keels. I know they're more expensive, but it would be interesting to know what makes them safer.
What do you think about a Pearson 10 metre?
My fathers boat was a hinkley 41 that lead portion of the keel was bolted on and if you grounded only the lead was damaged, easily fixed with bondo.
There are bolt on keels and there are bolt on keels. All of the pictures you showed even when there was a grid, had the keel bolted to the hull, not the grid. A proper keel grid needs to be added to the hull as the final step of hull lamination when the glass had not yet reached the full cure. Also there should never be core in the hull under the grid. Finally the keel bolts have to be spaced so that they pass through the grid members, not just the hull. Why don't builders like Benneteau, etc. do these things? Because it costs more money. There is nothing wrong with a properly built hull with a bolt on keel. It just needs to be done correctly. I have been involved with building performance oriented hulls with bolt on keels. Those hulls had no core where the grid was located. Instead they had lots of extra laminations of biaxial fabric. The keel grid was laminated into the hull so that it was integral part of the hull, not just glued down with 5200 and 100% of he keel bolts passed through the keel grid, not the hull between grid members as your picture at 7:36 shows. Losing the keel on a boat built that way would involve ripping the entire grid out of the hull.
Great video 👌