I just discovered your channel a few days ago while looking up some obscure facts about boats, and now I am binging. I learn something interesting from every video, even though I’ve been sailing since 1964. You’re a GREAT teacher.
Haha... I came to the comments to say just this too. Here on the east coast of England Bilge keel also now known as a double keel are the standard type for coastal sailing. Tides out, you beach your boat, take a nap and wait for some water. Cheap moorings too, as you don't need a deep water mooring.
@@itsoktobebeige I wonder why they aren't more popular in america. I've worked on and built boats all my life and I've never seen one in person. Seems extremely convenient.
I like my twin keeler because I don't need a cradle to keep it upright on the hard, where she spends her life waiting for me to finish restoring her! 😊
@@Boatyarddog Also, since you obviously don't realize these boats do quite well spending time drying out during twice a day low tides as they are designed for. Like yourself spending your days waiting for 4:20 pm to have a toke!
Having owned a number of sailboats with various configurations and not being a die hard racing sailor but rather a cruiser, the best boat for me was a cutaway full keel with a retractable (swing) 8:23 centre board. This configuration gave me the best of all choices, a easy sea manner, shoal draft, good pointing ability all by adjusting the swing keel!
Wow I was just thinking something similar 🤔. But I'd combine a swing-keel with a fin keel with a winged ballast bulb (parallelogram linkage) whose angle of attack may be adjusted as required.
Totally agree. I have a 42 ft. Hinckley Sou'wester with this kind of keel. 4 ft. 9 in. with the centerboard up, 9 ft. with it down. Tracks like it's on rails with the CB down.
I just bought my first boat in February and boy did I have information overload when I first started looking. I chose the safe route of a full keel and had my eyes out for a cape dory 28 or 30, ALMOST bought an Alberg 30 in Florida to sail back to Texas, but ended up with the best boat out of all those with a Perry design, a Baba 30. It’s a solid(non cored) full keel with cutaway forefoot, inboard diesel, cutter rigged boat that weighs 12.5k with a 10.5ft beam and a 4.75ft draft. Older boat so had to do some maintenance and repairs so will be splashing this week and taking her on maiden voyage this weekend!
I have a 26' bilge keel and love sailing her around the uk, she might not be amazing sailing to windward but for comfort and abilty to shallow out and dry out she is perfect. Cleaning the hull costs me nothing apart from a day out on a beach. I can go into islands and not worry about depths too much at all. 3' draft is nothing.
Thank you. Can you do one on mono hauls , fibreglass, composite and aluminum next. Or what ever material and why. ? I’m dreaming of the North Atlantic. Thank you.
I can only advise you not to believe everything he says. He's been on a boat once in a while but the generalisations you hear on this channel are borderline dangerous if you attach to much confidence in whatr he says. He's NOT a certified expert on boats although he does try to give that impression. You're better off trusting someone who has certifications. Then at least you know you get your moneys worth of advice.
Oh dear, this is my whole point, talk about the blind leading the even more blind!! Stop watching videos posted by people think they are experts when in reality they are not!
My personal choice is a steel or aluminium boat with twin or bilge keels. Shallow draft, one keel is upright under way and easy to beach for maintenance and will stay upright if "beached" by accident and a very strong part is in contact with the land or reef. They are much quicker than most people realise also.
I have a 1978 Oday with an encapsulated lead shoal keel with a centerboard. It is perfect for shallow the shallow bay where you run aground on shifting sandy shoals, without losing too much maneuverability on a bay with light wind.
My friend has a '79 O'Day 37. It's like a barge on rough water and cruises along in comfort. But try to do a standing turn in a marina? Yeah, about that barge...
The more I watch your videos, the more I am impressed by the breadth of your knowledge. There is something here for everyone. Both newbies and old salts.😂
Im a pro captain and a full-time cruiser on a Pearson 365 ketch for 22 years. It is refreshing to see a sailing channel dealing in good solid factual information. Good data clearly explained. Thank you captain.
100 years ago, my brother and I had a 22 ft comet and a lighter lightning' Sailing and racing on lakes, a drop centerboard gave us maneuverability, good attack into the wind and SPEED. Pull it up when docking, drop it down when working
You do a great job of guiding people away from "future-proofing" their decision. I have mellowed out, myself, over the years and learn to appreciate both the highlights and lowlights of anything. Unless one is heck-bent to be a top racer - tomorrow - there is much fun learning along the way, including the temperament of a boat. It is more important to learn your particular boat than buy the best spec'ed boat for your use.
My little Hurley 22 is a cross between a fin and a longkeel, (a short longkeel) with internal ballast, no keel bolts and 42% ballast, she rides the swell as good as many larger boats and as she carries very little windage. I've owned a range of sailboats from Contessa 32's to a Samfire 26, but for pottering along the coast single handed, i really rate the Hurley's keel.
The ending referencing the Delos keel was an excellent addition. Every boat is a balance of specifications. If you run a fin keel it would be wise to have excellent chart plotters and night vision cameras to detect flotsam or fishing gear and keep you off the rocks.
Have had all these and the one that is the shallowest is best but will give the most rocking. A catamaran is better. If you're not going to live on it the stiletto is a great boat. Once you weigh down a multi hull they lose a lot.
Ask the naval arquitect! For speed? For stability? For navigating the seven seas? For offshore For Costal cruising? For competition? For safety? I like heavy displacement full keel
Another well done video. I have had a swing keel, wing keel and now have a long chord fin keel at 7 feet of draft. It is a great compromise as it is stable, fast and has a very good motion in a sea way. She surfs well for a 43 year old boat (Nordic 44). The compromise is when we get to the east side of the states towards the end of our circumnavigation we will have to deal with some shoal areas. We are currently anchored in 9 feet of water in French Polynesia sitting out a blow. Many shoal draft boats that we know still don’t take advantage of their small draft.
If you want security while sailing, a full keel boat with the propeller in a rudder aperture is the only way to go. If you sail New England waters, there are lots of lobster pot warps and if you have a spade rudder, guess where the warps hang up. Now, how do you get the warp out of the gap between hull and top of rudder after it has jammed in their solidly - and the weather is deteriorating? (Remember MURPHY is always looking for the best opportunity to play his games) Propellers hanging out there are another place that finds every lobster pot warps. Then there are fishing nets..... I've seen the hole in the bottom of a Dufour 34, at a Connecticut Marina, after the fin keel hit a rock; tore off the keel; and the boat instantly sank. If you are sailing along at night, and hit a barely floating container that washed overboard from a container ship. Would you rather slide up on the container with your full keel, - with no damage - or hit the container with the leading edge of your fin keel while doing 6 knots .... shear it off, .... and immediately sink....?
Full keel, sure if you want to discount several decades of engineering advancement and never go faster than 1kn. Oh yeah, throw in the fact that your maneuverability is less than non-existent. There's a big reason why marine engineering left full keels behind decades ago.
@@jkutyna I'm a long haul cruiser. I'll gladly sacrifice 0.5 knot of speed for the absolute security that the full keel affords. The sea hasn't changed, and I refuse to put up with the modifications that the racing boys want. A Vice President in my Company was an ocean racer - he had the latest new fin keel speed machine design built. As they were approaching the Irish coast, having crossed the Atlantic, their fin keel broke off - bending stresses - leaving a huge hole in the hull. The boat instantly turned over - mast down - his crew climbed on the overturned hull and called the Irish Coast Guard. Nobody was hurt; they were towed into the harbor, but the boat was scrap. No thanks! I prefer hundreds of year of development of successful ship types to the current hot design fashion of today. With all oceans littered with semi-floating containers that went overboard from container ships, I don't want to have to worry about loosing a keel in the middle of the Atlantic, if I happen to hit one.
@@conbertbenneck49 You are giving away more than 0.5 knots speed compared to the extreme racing fin keel that sometimes break off... Racing boats need to be sailed by competent and considered crew to be safe, that is a fact of life, if you push too hard, or don't know how to maintain it, you break the boat! OTOH, with small losses in performance you can design with generous safety factors a fin keel and it will work fine and be way safer than a full keel as the boat will be as sturdy but more manoeuvrable and able to sail to windward in bad weather including in short seas.
For many years I had a '91 MacGregor 26 (not the later motor sailor one). The centerboard was an extreme wing, but with it and the rudder up, she drew about a foot. All the pro's and con's you mentioned applied in spades. But, I could trailer it from Ohio down to the Keys or Miami to cross the Gulf Stream and cruise the near Bahamas, and did several times. Because of the water ballast, it sat on the trailer at about 6,000 lbs. with the 8 horse Johnson, and a six cylinder mini van could haul it. Yes it was "crank" , had lots of leeway, and flew around at anchor like it was trying to escape. But the outboard used only about 6 gallons of gas for an entire season on Lake Erie, it maneuvered great, and could point very high. You are completely correct, in that it is all about your requirements. And also right about WHEN to sail... the only times I ever got into trouble, was when I pushed it.
I really like this channel. I know very little about sailboats. But here I learn something new every time. Telling me about keels letting me learn from an experience sailor is what I need. I think my choice would be a full keel or many a modified, I don’t want to need deep water everywhere I want to anchor. 5 ft isn’t bad but any more would be a pain I think. There is a area I want to be able to get into and that is Lake Sabine in Texas. I am not sure what kind of keel I would need for that. But it dose have some pretty shallow areas.
Thank you, mate! I'd love to 'Patreon' you but I'm a modest, working, family guy who does sail a modest sailboat in the uk (very expensive for any kind of boat ownership). Just want to say thanks for the great content and for giving good advice to 'normal yachties'! fair winds,brother!
Crap. "Bathtub full of Volkswagens." I just shot tea out my nose thanks to that! On topic, I had a small boat with a swing keep but never felt comfortable with it. I now have a slightly larger Tanzer 26 with a full keel and I've hit the sweet spot for the area I sail in - the lower St. John River valley in New Brunswick, Canada.
Really like your video. The way you explain everything is strait forward and very true. I own and currently restore an Alberg 37 (full keel). I personally prefer full keel boats. Speed and agility isn't important to me. I just love the fact how my boat plows thru the waves like a freight train. I don't even have to touch the steering, it just keeps running a strait line. But as you already mentioned, changing course, tacking and so on isn't done as easy and quickly as a fin keel boat. And backing up on engine power is almost impossible. I had my boat for a while in a pretty tight marina and I gave up on backing the boat into my slip. I just stopped the motor, jumped on the dock and turned it around by hand. Heck, going from forward to reverse just to slow the boat down takes just about a half mile to stop it, going only 4 knots, LOL. The last thing I like about full keel boats is as you mentioned the grounding. Sailing around the Florida gulf coast grounding is pretty much common. But with that type of keel it's just annoying, there's never any damage to the boat. Maybe some scratches in the paint if I hit something hard. Thank you for this great video.
I was looking for a boat with world travel potential and I love many of the full keel boats but I was attracted to the added performance and maneuverability benefits of the modified fin keel. Some of my favorite "blue water" boats like the Valiant 40 and passport 40 have that layout.
Nothing better than a full-keeled boat with the rudder mounted on the stern and with a protected prop. There simply is no better configuration for a true blue-water vessel. The problem however is most boats never go very far off shore but spent most of their time in and around a crowded marina. Here is where the full-keel is no damn good. Their manuverability, particularily In reverse, is nothing short of a nightmare. I never back my boat up without a line tied to the stern (because you never know which way the stern my go.) Add a bowsprit in the mix and I have a floating shish kabob. I'm the guy that other boaters hate.
You are overgeneralizing. How long is "long?" Cruisers favor keels where the bottom of the keel is about 1/2 of the waterline length with the rudder attached to the keel.
@@timdunn2257 Of course I'm generalizing since I'm not able to consider every boat hull out there, but to be specific, I have a DownEast 38. It's got a full keel with a cut-away forefoot, shoal draft with the rudder hung on the end of an 8000 lb encapsulated lead ballast. This may not be the very best blue-water hull configuration but it certainly one of them. And it's absolute hell to handle in the marina. It can also take a grounding (ask me how I know.) My statement was meant to be a general remark and one I think is shared by others.
@@timdunn2257 The boat was designed to look like something built in the 19th Century and 5 ft draft would certainly have been considered "Shoal" back then. I believe it also makes this claim in the original sales brochure.
@@jamesbaldwin7676 England was famous for very deep draft boats in the early days of yachting, in contrast to beamy, shallow yachts found in America at that time. The point to draft offshore is self righting when knocked down.
For the reasons you said, the full keel is very safe for ocean crossing... but i think they have a flaw for most coastal cruisers I never hear commented on. A full keel is difficult to turn forward and backwards thats understood. Most people dont cross oceans but coastal cruise and will cross many more bars than ocean storms. It is much easier to keep a modified keel boat straight when crossing a bar and being pushed from stern by a wave, than full keel that will broach more easily... and usually pushed into rocks. If most sailing is coastal and crossing a bar every few days, I think the crossover is preferable/safer. You can almost always find shelter when coastal from big storms. As always, it depends on your sailing.
Nice video. You might have omitted A couple of comments for novices who might be considering blue water sailing . 1) The weather is wrong....a lot. I Left Galveston, Tx for the Bahamas on a late may norther that was forecast to last 12-24 hours. Four days later in the middle of Gulf of Mexico the north wind was still blowing 25-30+kts sustained gusting 40+. Two days later the forecast was variable to 10 kts, we woke to 25 kts sustained now out of the east 🤦♂. 2) Prop placement relative to keel. Crab pots, long line fishermen and just junk in the water. I have had fishermen drop their lines right across my course off shore. You can dodge crab pots during the day but at night no way. An exposed prop can create a risk. 3) Bow thruster for the win on full keel port maneuvering 😎. 4) Regarding speed on a full keel: Code Zero or Asymmetrical For speed on a full keel. You can fly them much more often on a full keel and they are easy to use. You can also fly more sail longer. I am still full main and genoa(110%) at 20+. 5) Maybe not about the keel, buy a self tacking staysail is a God send in heavy weather.
Best of luck to you! I started this year. It was a whole lot less expensive than I expected it would be, and the sailing community has been really kind and helpful. I wish I'd have started years ago now I've gotten into it.
I love my fin keel on my Ericson!! My boat heels well and is very stable, smooth and is a dream. I draw 6 feet when fully loaded with my liveaboard load.
Bulbs and wing keels are nice in shallower water, but if you ground in a soft bottom you are SOL whence you can often "slice" through and wiggle free with a fin keel.
Excellent program. I’ve owned and sailed three different types of boats around the Chesapeake. A 17’ d/s, a 1980 27’ Cherubini designed fin keel Hunter and finally a 1975 35’ Pearson full keel with a center board. Obviously they all sailed differently and I enjoyed them for their unique features. The Pearson was fast to windward with the c/b down and had a lot of room both on deck and below. The Hunter was solid and comfortable and only drew 4’. I rigged each of them to meet my needs. Enjoyed the buying process, sailing them (as long as there was some wind). Each had good yanmar diesel engines while the d/s had a 4hp mercury on an ez in mount. The two largest were excellent for extended periods and equipped with complete galleys heads and births.
Full keel also wants to round up quite a lot on a broad reach when the waves catch up to you. Trying to sail 135 degrees off true wind with an old aries windvane 10 years ago the boat would round up to 110 or so and then back down to 150+ making me slightly nervous since I had absolutely no intention of gybing at that time. A full keel is very comfortable close to beam reach in heavy seas as the base of the waves hit the keel first letting the hull "shoulder" into the wave which combined with some wind in the sails keeps the heelangle more or less constant way past the point where you can see the closest waves because of their height obscuring the next one. Edit: If I had to choose all over again I'd say this: for shorthanded cruising I want either the rig or keel to facilitate rebalancing the helm easily. Some old gaffrigged racingcutters facilitate this rebalancing with the centerboard they have in addition to their shallower full keel while some older rigtypes that are very unusual these days rebalance all on their own (luggers, search for "adventures of ocean pearl"). These days you can obviously use powered winches to reef and trim sails every time you change course but I would prefer to not have to rely on such devices without working myself sweaty each time.
There is no answer to this question. Where do you sail? What kind of sailing do you do? Do you want to make long passages/ Most importantly, what is you budget. I sail a traditional long keel Contessa. A good, if slow and wet, sailing yacht. If I one the lottery tomorrow? A big Hallberg or Oyster in a minute. Fin keel, twin rudders and 200 mile days? Yes please! Nice to dream.🙃that was a big one.
How about the best Wednesday night racing boats? I've sailed on both fins and full keel boats, you're so right about compromises. The full keel loves sailing in strong winds and big waves but can't move in light stuff while the fins go like a rabbit close to the wind and can still get along in slight puffs. Decide what you like to do most often, and pick accordingly.
You are forgetting the modified full keel. I've sailed on a number of boats with modified full keels and find them to be maneuverable and relatively quick.
As a ships mechanic I've seen plenty of full keels with great maneuverability, usually with a slightly lengthened rudder or oversized prop. Those are probably the easiest riding boats I've been at the helm of.
what do really big ships do? Lift up the keel in the harbor, and drop it when they are over the Titanic? I understood that this fancy technique was out of reach then, but the Maltese Falcon does it! I thought of a series of cross tube similar to a bow thruster. Then invest on intake flaps and exit flaps. Still, if a ship grabs deep into the water like a small vessel, shouldn't it be able to sail on the wind like it?
@@jimskywaker4345 Yeah, I just was wondering if there is a relation ship with the number of masts on a ship. Multiple masts is like full keel in my book. You need to pass under a bridge? Retract your mast! Why is it so hard? I would want this feature to adjust for wind speed.
My Bayfield 36 (waterline) cutter had a full keel with a cut back entry. You had to anchor with a sail at the stern to keep her from putting her stern to the wind and bow on the chain.
I was on the longkeel in the video , the yacht Puff for a inspection. The Island Packet was really nice & comfy with even a washing machine aboard. But also bit too expensive. Nice too see the picture in your vid.
You mentioned 2 or 3 times the boat length for an Island Packet turn. This is true only if you leave it in forward as you turn. I recently attended a docking class with the Maryland School of Sailing and they use IP's. We learned to do standing turns in little more than the length of the boat with the aid of its prop walk. Love your videos! : )
Lady K I’m getting lost in the “depths” of boat shopping myself. Your videos are full of valuable information, and all I had to do was subscribe. Thank you
I remember being on a small fishing boat that had a retractable keel. The seas were rough and the small harbor was shallow. It worked but had constant repair issues.
@@timdunn2257 I sailed the Northwest Passage, 83 years ago, when I was 12. There was none of this internet nonsense, back then. Only the ocean, and fire for heat.
I used to love the annual cleaning and re-painting of the bottom of the Triton an (Alberg designed boat) I used to crew on, on the Chesapeake Bay. I just loved being in the boatyard and seeing the variety of hulls. What's below the waterline of a sailboat is just as beautiful as what's up top. I had a sunfish as a kid, spent summers at Greenwood Lake NY which had a very active Star fleet that raced most weekends. The Star is a beautiful design with a bulb keel and most of the Star owners kept their boats dangling in the air during the week to keep the bottoms from getting fouled.
That was a great explanation . I havr a jet 14. And its got a deep narrow fin keel and want to roll over with every wind change but supper fast . My American Marine has a full displacement hull and full keel yes , heavy and a fright train ! But doesn't seem to notice bad weather .
Enjoyed the video. I had an Allied Seawind 30 ( I think only one of 2 Allied in the UK, the other is a 32). The long keel was fantastically stable and allowed, when balanced for the helm to be left for quite long periods. And in a blow was well able to tale the heel and waves. But not a marina boat. The thought of coming of the fingers at Fleetwood kept me awake at night.... However, when I switched to a swinging mooring at Holyhead I became sold on the long keel. I now have a small fin (Jaguar 21).Zero directional stability unless the helm is firmly gripped. But, as you say , horses for courses. I didn't stay the full course to see if you looked at Bilge keels. Soo useful for the drying harbours. But again a compromise.
Best keel is a full keel with a cutout ahead of the prop. You get directional stability with reasonable performance under power, especially when backing up
My moderate keel boat had a bronze foot that extended far enough aft to make a semi-balanced keel possible. The keel bottom was a bit less than half the waterline length and the rudder hung from it.
A fin keel with a NACA foil profile will give it the maximum lift and minimum drag. She'll point higher into the wind, too. If you want leverage, you cut some 2-4" holes fore and aft in it, low down, and replace the lead with tungsten. Twice the density. Think just one step out of the box. Full keels can be great. Very stable tracking. And still trying to run a straight line while you want to turn on a dime. Horses for courses.
And absolutely nobody uses tungsten. $$$$$$$$$$$ Maximum lift = minimum longitudinal stability. Tungston's hard to work with, and the difference in density isn't twice, but @58% more. Tungston 6,000 # = $90,000. Lead 6,000 # = $2,800.
I have an atkins thistle and find her great, comfortable and secure. Any sailboat will get to hull speed in 15 knots of wind. In lighter conditions a fin keel may be slightly faster but the difference is not worth shouting about. Storm in a teacup! The big difference lies in manuevering in harbour, mine is a dog in this situation but a gem at sea. Mine has much less leeway than most fin keeled yachts.
As an owner of both a fin keel and a full length keel boats, a following sea means a great deal more tiller control as the fin keel boat swivels with the wind as each wave passes underneath. The fin keel has on many occasions sailed at 8 knots, while we are much more comfortable at 5 knots on our full keel boat. Following seas are not problem for the full keel boat.
the final advise about "if you are worried about it get the island packet" is sound advise just like when you suggest to the person who is afraid of getting in an accident "ok just get the big suv and you will be safer"
I would disagree with your statement that a full keel boat needs 2-3 times its length to turn around. You can spin it on it's axis but it take a lot of effort and is definitely harder. But it is doable with enough practice.
Yes, you have to back the foresail, and cast it off at just the right moment to keep it from paying off too far - by bringing the foresail in for the new tack promptly.
thanks - i have just finished a Med flotilla having had power vessels all of my life. I plan is to spend a couple of years sailing with my wife. We thought we would do some sailing holidays first before committing to the purchase of a yacht. i'm already learning so much from your videos! 👌😁
I whole-heartedly agree with all you say ... but you are missing out on one HUGE issue - the fin keel rudder. The same type of rudder the orcas off Gibraltar love to chew off. The usual unsupported fin keel rudder, without a substantial skeg strong enough to take a grounding or hitting a log or ship container, for instance. Without that insurance, I would never make a deep salt crossing again.
I see a negative review, I say to myself, "Ooh! They'll probably actually describe the product experience!" You did a very respectable job of just that.
I bought a project boat 19 feet on my way up from a dinghy with a lifting center board, so a lifting keel was not totally unfamiliar. The advantage were great. I could still get into small bays and anchorages, I could still beach the boat ⛵ in lighter winds I could lower only partially the keel. I don't think it would work on big boats but anything up to around 22 feet , its worth mention and consideration.
I can't say I have a lot of experience in sailing. But our 1965 Van de Stadt Andromeda 50 with it's modified hull sails beautifully. 7Bf and only the 25m² Fok (jib) and we averaged 9kts while not noticing the 1,5m waves. So comfortable and even in the numerous small harbours in Greece it was so maneuverable that we only needed our ship length to turn. Great sailing on something like that
Thanks for your analysis !!! I'm an old offshore sailor who had five sailboats & I sailed from England to the Caribbean, the USA Atlantic east coast, Panama, French Polynesia, Hawaii Vancouver etc... I even sailed single handed offshore in my last & preferred sailboat an Ericson 34' third hand very well kept 😄I think my choice for offshore cruising would be a centerboard boat, not only to have access to shallow bay but also the safety offshore in a gale when I would raise the centerboard(s) to slide down the waves without the risk of stumbling on a fixed keel
Coworker was sailing a boat of unknown size from SF to San Diego, a route they had sailed numerous times. Rogue wave rolled them and they capsized, they didn't see it coming. Wife was lost, but he was rescued after a few days. I assume a robust keel would help against waves coming abeam - to a certain point.
I’ve got a Cape George 45, big heavy full keel boat, and I’m not sure it is slower than a fin keel alternative. 30 knots wind and I can have all canvas up and she still seems safe, and very fast because the ballast allows for all that canvas. I will say she turns about as well as a train, though. Also going astern happens without any expectation of directional control.
Curiously perhaps, the 1st non-centerboard boat I learned on in the Navy was a Columbia 25 back in 1968. It was a full keel. The first one I actually bought back in 1974 however was a Newport 27 with a fin keel. (I started on a Columbia 15 centerboard boat B4 I qualified on the 25.)
My 21 ft buccaneer has a full keel, It's can be a pain sometimes sailing on the Saint John river but it's so stable it more than makes up for it. Tacking in light wind must be done carefully to make sure you get around without stalling.
@@timdunn2257 Thank you so much for the tip. We just recently started sailing ( I grew up in Muskoka windsurfing and dingy sailing occasionally) so my wife and I are beginners and any tips or tricks are greatly appreciated.
I like a deep fin with a spade rudder. I had full keels with skegs etc and they handled like pigs. Only downside with deep fin is well, doesn't work well in shallow waters (Florida, Yucatan Coast, etc). My last boat was a Hunter 410 with the deep option and I spent 10 years in the Yucatan with that thing. Many harbours I could not get into but I loved how well that thing sailed and pointed.
When I first learned to sail my dad learned in a Cal 20 with a bulb keel and outboard rudder. Subsequently graduated to a Cal 28 and then a Cal 36, and those two boats demonstrated the superiority of fin keels and spade rudders for both maneuverability and their ability to point. Lightweight, fast, responsive, yet stable. Our last boat was a Columbia 50 with a bilge keel, and while it was a gorgeous boat, it was a stone upwind. We did a lot of competitive racing back in the early 70s and learned really quickly that a bilge keel wasn't going to cut it on a short course. We won a lot of offshore races where the predominant point of sail was a beam reach; but we sacrificed a lot not having a fin keel as far as performance on a race course. If cruising is your thing, full keel is probably the way to go for comfort and safety. If you want to race as much as cruise you're going to need a fin keel and spade rudder.
I have strong feelings on which keel is best for cruisers. I'd go for a modified encapsulated fin keel with shoal draft. I intend to go into shallow water where I can get good protection and I will probably run aground. The encapsulated keel of my 28' S2 (3'10" draft) was great as I never worried about keel failure. Integrated over time, a shoal draft keel is much safer than a deep draft keel as it allows you to get to safe harbors that a deep draft keel cannot go. I dont worry about ability to point into the wind as I normally want to only do downwind cruising. Long distance cruising to windward sucks. If I have to go to windward, I use the engine with a sail to prevent rolling. A very interesting option might be bilge keels as they are meant for shallow water. If I built another boat she'd have bilge keels.
My family owns a yacht (Midget 31) is a full keel and even continues into the rudder. I can agree that making manoeuvres is not easy but we always have tricks for that. We use during sailing the sails and when in a harbour (close to a little wall under the water) we put a line 3 places further and move that way. For the wind its beginning to move ok at 7 knots but is very nice at 10 knots.
This all depends on what you are using the boat for. If racing a fin or bulb. For cruising a full keel, gives more stability and the prop is more protected. But if your on a mooring that drise out a bilge keel is a must. Just my 2 cents.
Nice, clear comparison of all the advantages and disadvantages, thanks. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on bilge keels, especially for ocean crossings.
I have done a few passages with bilge keel just short hops of between 250 and 500 NM of open ocean and it was as good as a single keel , points 25deg to the wind sailed happily with a rail under just well mannered. Been hit with 40 knt wind no drama . That was a 28ft boat
I think the true hybrid keel is the Passport 40 or Valiant 40 style keel, which in essence are long run keels with a cutout at the back and the forefoot removed. These are fully integral keels, ie part of the boat, they are still very long giving almost railroad directional stability, and you can still hit reefs with them. The more modern modified fins are really just squat fin keelers, and you're generally in for some major floor work if you take on a reef at 6 knots.
Good review of the options and compromises with various keel designs. I always thought our Morgan 32 shallow draft keel (5') with a skeg hung rudder was the perfect vessel for coastal cruising out of Panama City FL. The keel stepped mast was added peace of mind. The Morgan was great for getting in and out of shallow anchorages. And dream trips to the Keys and Bahamas. But gotta admit a friend's Endeavor 42 that I had a chance to sail on in the Bahamas was a very comfortable experience in varied conditions. A riding sail helped at anchor in windy conditions.
I love my Catalina 30 standard rig, and standard fin configuration. It's a great upwind boat. Very well behaved, so easy to single hand. I've seen about 7.3 knots upwind, 11.3 down wind with the Genoa and main. I don't have a kite or pole of any sort. It's a constant focus situation dead downwind when 18+ knots. It loves a broad reach. Great explanation of different types of keels Tim. I believe my girl is around 5.25' draft, so not too bad for shoals
Here in the UK, I tried a number of different keel formats, one of the best for fast cruising and reasonably shallow draft, for me, turned out to be a wing keel. It had lots of lift, remained stable and felt safe at anchor if caught in a late night squall with only a skeleton watch on deck!
I have a Ted Hood designed Paceship Westwind. It's one of his designs with the "delta form hull" (aka whale belly). It's a deep V hull with a rounded bottom. Lots of internal ballast down low, and a swing centreboard.
When I was a teenager my uncle bought a 28' gulfweed ketch. One week end we went to Santa Catalina Island. About 2/3 the way there, the wind picked up as and started pushing some 12' to 15 ' swells which I thought was great. My uncle not so much. As soon as we came into the lee of the island the went down and we arrived at Forth of July Cove no worse for our small adventure.
You are missing one of my favorite. Bilge (twin) keels. Like it because they are low draft but they are also great for drying out with. They do have much more drag an less maneuverable than a fin. I have also considered a centerboard boat as it two fits the shallow draft (when up) and good to dry the boat out. That said I have never done the centerboard thing.
Got a small bilge Keeler myself, shallow draft and the ability to dry out is awesome. In fact my mooring dries out daily, not many other designs that could manage that.
The Hake Seaward 46RK. The only sailboat in the world with a retracting 7,500lb fin bulb keel. Only 9 of them made. The keel retracts all the way up inside the bottom of the hull to have a minimum draft of 2.5' and with the keel all the way down, a maximum draft of 7'. My boss and I took one sailing for a sea trial and I was blown away with its performance. It was extremely fast in every direction, and very nice to have all electric winches. It wasn't as comfortable as my Morgan 41, but it did sail extremely well. Overall, the boat was fantastic and very beautiful. Unfortunately the cost of one is very high, usually upwards of $450k.
Steel boat, Long keel here, i always feel very safe offshore in mine. She sails straight with very little input, can tick off 150nm a day without too mhch fuss, takes nasty weather in her stride. I dont do marinas often, but she is fine to manuever but not as easy as the tupperware boats. She is more susceptible to cross currents for sure though.
Absolutely false. Boats float in the water, and they will go sideways if the water is moving sideways. It's WIND that makes a difference - if the WIND is blowing from sideways, the long keel resists leeway better than a fin keel.
Thanks for this video. For those of us that don't get to sail until we retire and move to Florida, can you do an addenda on the swing keel? That versatility intrigues me...
The main take-away should always be to get a keel type that suits your location, and the conditions you are likely to experience. A long keel sails fantastic in the Baltic sea, with its rough, irregular wave pattern, however you shouldn't take it to the Southern Ocean (see reports regarding the Golden Globe Race and the weakness of long keel boats in those conditions.) A short keel will allow you some superb racing and fast cruising, however the course stability of a long keel can be a real benefit if sailing single handed, etc. Also noteworthy: if you are sailing in tidal waters, a twin keel can be awesome. ;)
My "In my Head", Sailboat Has retractable keel and airplane wing type setup. Like collase drinking cups. And wind turbine on top main mast, I think a turbine could be used as a sail while making power and directly driving a prop. $0.02
The profiles shown at the beginning of the video are extremes. Something like a Cape Dory is in between these extremes, and is a good compromise for offshore cruising. I speak from experience.
Your comment on compromise reminds me of the description of an aircraft I heard once: "A series of compromises flying in close formation". Boats? "A hole in the water you throw money into".
There's also the other option, best of both worlds, just go with more than one hull, speed, shallow draft, steady performance, if you have a tendency to motion sickness, go for a catamaran, if you have adhd, go for the trimaran, and yes, also like the bilge keel on both mono hull and multihull, there's a lot of safety in speed and shallow draft, outrun a storm, or creep up on a beach behind an island.
Back in the early '70s, my old man had a Islander Bahama 24 with a full keel. His buddy had a Pearson 26 with a fin. Yes, the Pearson was marginally faster (around a1/2 to 3/4-knot advantage to the Pearson), and could point higher into the wind. BUT on Lake Erie where the waves kick up in a hurry, the Pearson would pound on 3-4-foot waves whereas the Islander cut through the waves because of the shape of the hull at the front. Later, the Old Man bought a fin keel Catalina 30 with a fin keel ... It rode like a bucking bronco! The round bottom front hull would ride up on the short-period Lake Erie waves, where the full-keel would slice through. Fast forward a few years, and the Old Man retired and was looking for his ocean-going boat to sail the world, and he found a Challenger 38 ketch with a full keel. He added a 4' bowsprit to allow for twin jibs, and along with the addition of a main topsail which technically turned it into a cutter-rigged Ketch. VERY stable for long-distance sailing on the open ocean. With the (relatively) short masts allowing for more sail area down low.compared to a sloop rig, it did not heel nearly as much. The sails could be set for days at a time! in 1984, he was (single-handing) sailing from the Bahamas to Bermuda in the same major storm that sunk a couple of Tall Ships. No he didn't have all of those sails up in the storm, but the Challenger made it through with no damage, although HE did have to stay awake for 60 hours straight! After provisioning in Bermuda, he then sailed on across the Atlantic... but that's another story... Islander, Catalina and Challenger boats were all built within a few miles of each other in the Los Angeles area...
I just discovered your channel a few days ago while looking up some obscure facts about boats, and now I am binging. I learn something interesting from every video, even though I’ve been sailing since 1964. You’re a GREAT teacher.
Welcome aboard!
Shoutout to the Bilge Keel, the only keel you intentionally run aground because they are often designed to sit on their keels on the ground
Full-on love for the Bilge Keel. No need to worry about anchoring when you can just beach it.
Haha... I came to the comments to say just this too.
Here on the east coast of England Bilge keel also now known as a double keel are the standard type for coastal sailing.
Tides out, you beach your boat, take a nap and wait for some water. Cheap moorings too, as you don't need a deep water mooring.
Well if you like sailing a tugboat
@@ralphe5842 Only someone with an incredibly small penis would make a comment like this.
@@itsoktobebeige I wonder why they aren't more popular in america. I've worked on and built boats all my life and I've never seen one in person. Seems extremely convenient.
Don't blame me, you clicked this! 😂😂😂
😂
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This comment deserves to be pinned
That is the internet in a nutshell.
A lead keel…
I like my twin keeler because I don't need a cradle to keep it upright on the hard, where she spends her life waiting for me to finish restoring her! 😊
All the while being deformed from gravity sucking down the hulls.
Finish it or sell, scrap it its meant to be sailed... NOT STORED😢.😢😢😢
@@Boatyarddog Typical yank reply!! Not a clue most of you, even the guy making this video doesn't know what he's talking about.
@@jonathansimmonds5784 your first sentence just invalidated anything you have to say.
@@Boatyarddog Also, since you obviously don't realize these boats do quite well spending time drying out during twice a day low tides as they are designed for. Like yourself spending your days waiting for 4:20 pm to have a toke!
Never owned one. Are you able to kedge off by healing the vessel over when you run aground?
Having owned a number of sailboats with various configurations and not being a die hard racing sailor but rather a cruiser, the best boat for me was a cutaway full keel with a retractable (swing) 8:23 centre board. This configuration gave me the best of all choices, a easy sea manner, shoal draft, good pointing ability all by adjusting the swing keel!
I've never sailed modern ships.
This sounds interesting.
I wonder how full keels compare with the Åfjordsbåt I've tried when I was younger.
Wow I was just thinking something similar 🤔. But I'd combine a swing-keel with a fin keel with a winged ballast bulb (parallelogram linkage) whose angle of attack may be adjusted as required.
Totally agree. I have a 42 ft. Hinckley Sou'wester with this kind of keel. 4 ft. 9 in. with the centerboard up, 9 ft. with it down. Tracks like it's on rails with the CB down.
A bathtub full of VW Beatles is my favorite 😄
I just bought my first boat in February and boy did I have information overload when I first started looking. I chose the safe route of a full keel and had my eyes out for a cape dory 28 or 30, ALMOST bought an Alberg 30 in Florida to sail back to Texas, but ended up with the best boat out of all those with a Perry design, a Baba 30. It’s a solid(non cored) full keel with cutaway forefoot, inboard diesel, cutter rigged boat that weighs 12.5k with a 10.5ft beam and a 4.75ft draft. Older boat so had to do some maintenance and repairs so will be splashing this week and taking her on maiden voyage this weekend!
All of those boats are good examples of a moderate keel length, which is desirable offshore.
@@timdunn2257 I would consider the 4.75ft draft mine has as moderate
I just googled 'baba 30' upon reading your post. That is some beautiful boat, must say.
@@Mme.Swisstella thanks. The abundance of teak is both a blessing and a curse lol
The Baba is an excellent offshore boat. Congratulations!
I have a 26' bilge keel and love sailing her around the uk, she might not be amazing sailing to windward but for comfort and abilty to shallow out and dry out she is perfect. Cleaning the hull costs me nothing apart from a day out on a beach. I can go into islands and not worry about depths too much at all. 3' draft is nothing.
Was hoping he'd talk about the binge, they don't seem a common over in the USA at least but seems like it would be a nice alternative also...
I think the UK is where bilge keel boats belong.
@@timdunn2257 Only because you lot are so ignorant that you don't know what you are talking about.....
@@attainableaudio4533 They are good when you have large sandy tidal flats or river estuaries
What's the name of your centaur?😂
I've always liked the way u explain things for people who are novices and even hardened yachties who thought they knew everything. Thanks heaps. 🇦🇺🌈👣
Thank you. Can you do one on mono hauls , fibreglass, composite and aluminum next. Or what ever material and why. ? I’m dreaming of the North Atlantic. Thank you.
I can only advise you not to believe everything he says. He's been on a boat once in a while but the generalisations you hear on this channel are borderline dangerous if you attach to much confidence in whatr he says. He's NOT a certified expert on boats although he does try to give that impression. You're better off trusting someone who has certifications. Then at least you know you get your moneys worth of advice.
@@SuperDirk1965 Thanks Dirk much appreciate ur advice, cheers🌈👍
Oh dear, this is my whole point, talk about the blind leading the even more blind!!
Stop watching videos posted by people think they are experts when in reality they are not!
@jonathansimmonds5784 look at it as astute observations from an experienced sailor thus a very good guide in the right direction ü
My personal choice is a steel or aluminium boat with twin or bilge keels. Shallow draft, one keel is upright under way and easy to beach for maintenance and will stay upright if "beached" by accident and a very strong part is in contact with the land or reef. They are much quicker than most people realise also.
I have a 1978 Oday with an encapsulated lead shoal keel with a centerboard. It is perfect for shallow the shallow bay where you run aground on shifting sandy shoals, without losing too much maneuverability on a bay with light wind.
My friend has a '79 O'Day 37. It's like a barge on rough water and cruises along in comfort. But try to do a standing turn in a marina? Yeah, about that barge...
The more I watch your videos, the more I am impressed by the breadth of your knowledge. There is something here for everyone. Both newbies and old salts.😂
Im a pro captain and a full-time cruiser on a Pearson 365 ketch for 22 years. It is refreshing to see a sailing channel dealing in good solid factual information. Good data clearly explained. Thank you captain.
This has convinced me that if I ever take up sailing I'll have the fullest keel to ever keel.
100 years ago, my brother and I had a 22 ft comet and a lighter lightning' Sailing and racing on lakes, a drop centerboard gave us maneuverability, good attack into the wind and SPEED. Pull it up when docking, drop it down when working
You do a great job of guiding people away from "future-proofing" their decision. I have mellowed out, myself, over the years and learn to appreciate both the highlights and lowlights of anything. Unless one is heck-bent to be a top racer - tomorrow - there is much fun learning along the way, including the temperament of a boat. It is more important to learn your particular boat than buy the best spec'ed boat for your use.
My Erickson 35 nearly killed me in 30' waves.
@@timdunn2257 Sounds like a good interview for Tim to do with you - bring some user experiences into the vids.
My little Hurley 22 is a cross between a fin and a longkeel, (a short longkeel) with internal ballast, no keel bolts and 42% ballast, she rides the swell as good as many larger boats and as she carries very little windage.
I've owned a range of sailboats from Contessa 32's to a Samfire 26, but for pottering along the coast single handed, i really rate the Hurley's keel.
The ending referencing the Delos keel was an excellent addition. Every boat is a balance of specifications. If you run a fin keel it would be wise to have excellent chart plotters and night vision cameras to detect flotsam or fishing gear and keep you off the rocks.
get a grip. i've sailed my fin keel and spade rudder 25,000 miles. what you say makes no sense. you're an armchair sailor dude.
Best for what is the real question. Everything in boating is a compromise of one sort or another.
Have had all these and the one that is the shallowest is best but will give the most rocking. A catamaran is better. If you're not going to live on it the stiletto is a great boat. Once you weigh down a multi hull they lose a lot.
Ask the naval arquitect!
For speed?
For stability?
For navigating the seven seas?
For offshore
For Costal cruising?
For competition?
For safety?
I like heavy displacement full keel
been following this guy for a couple years and explains matters very simplified...works for me. lol
Another well done video. I have had a swing keel, wing keel and now have a long chord fin keel at 7 feet of draft. It is a great compromise as it is stable, fast and has a very good motion in a sea way. She surfs well for a 43 year old boat (Nordic 44). The compromise is when we get to the east side of the states towards the end of our circumnavigation we will have to deal with some shoal areas. We are currently anchored in 9 feet of water in French Polynesia sitting out a blow. Many shoal draft boats that we know still don’t take advantage of their small draft.
If you want security while sailing, a full keel boat with the propeller in a rudder aperture is the only way to go. If you sail New England waters, there are lots of lobster pot warps and if you have a spade rudder, guess where the warps hang up.
Now, how do you get the warp out of the gap between hull and top of rudder after it has jammed in their solidly - and the weather is deteriorating? (Remember MURPHY is always looking for the best opportunity to play his games)
Propellers hanging out there are another place that finds every lobster pot warps.
Then there are fishing nets.....
I've seen the hole in the bottom of a Dufour 34, at a Connecticut Marina, after the fin keel hit a rock; tore off the keel; and the boat instantly sank.
If you are sailing along at night, and hit a barely floating container that washed overboard from a container ship. Would you rather slide up on the container with your full keel, - with no damage - or hit the container with the leading edge of your fin keel while doing 6 knots .... shear it off, .... and immediately sink....?
Says it all 👋👋
Full keel, sure if you want to discount several decades of engineering advancement and never go faster than 1kn. Oh yeah, throw in the fact that your maneuverability is less than non-existent. There's a big reason why marine engineering left full keels behind decades ago.
@@jkutyna I'm a long haul cruiser. I'll gladly sacrifice 0.5 knot of speed for the absolute security that the full keel affords. The sea hasn't changed, and I refuse to put up with the modifications that the racing boys want. A Vice President in my Company was an ocean racer - he had the latest new fin keel speed machine design built. As they were approaching the Irish coast, having crossed the Atlantic, their fin keel broke off - bending stresses - leaving a huge hole in the hull. The boat instantly turned over - mast down - his crew climbed on the overturned hull and called the Irish Coast Guard. Nobody was hurt; they were towed into the harbor, but the boat was scrap. No thanks! I prefer hundreds of year of development of successful ship types to the current hot design fashion of today. With all oceans littered with semi-floating containers that went overboard from container ships, I don't want to have to worry about loosing a keel in the middle of the Atlantic, if I happen to hit one.
@@jkutyna Don't stop learning tomorrow you will know it all an maybe even have some dates fixed 🙂
@@conbertbenneck49 You are giving away more than 0.5 knots speed compared to the extreme racing fin keel that sometimes break off... Racing boats need to be sailed by competent and considered crew to be safe, that is a fact of life, if you push too hard, or don't know how to maintain it, you break the boat! OTOH, with small losses in performance you can design with generous safety factors a fin keel and it will work fine and be way safer than a full keel as the boat will be as sturdy but more manoeuvrable and able to sail to windward in bad weather including in short seas.
For many years I had a '91 MacGregor 26 (not the later motor sailor one). The centerboard was an extreme wing, but with it and the rudder up, she drew about a foot. All the pro's and con's you mentioned applied in spades. But, I could trailer it from Ohio down to the Keys or Miami to cross the Gulf Stream and cruise the near Bahamas, and did several times. Because of the water ballast, it sat on the trailer at about 6,000 lbs. with the 8 horse Johnson, and a six cylinder mini van could haul it. Yes it was "crank" , had lots of leeway, and flew around at anchor like it was trying to escape. But the outboard used only about 6 gallons of gas for an entire season on Lake Erie, it maneuvered great, and could point very high. You are completely correct, in that it is all about your requirements. And also right about WHEN to sail... the only times I ever got into trouble, was when I pushed it.
I really like this channel. I know very little about sailboats. But here I learn something new every time.
Telling me about keels letting me learn from an experience sailor is what I need.
I think my choice would be a full keel or many a modified, I don’t want to need deep water everywhere I want to anchor. 5 ft isn’t bad but any more would be a pain I think. There is a area I want to be able to get into and that is Lake Sabine in Texas. I am not sure what kind of keel I would need for that. But it dose have some pretty shallow areas.
Full keel /cutaway forefoot, transom Stearns and transom hung rudder and gaffrig ketch.Had a cold molded 32' Hugh Angleman for 25 yrs.Loved it.
Thank you, mate! I'd love to 'Patreon' you but I'm a modest, working, family guy who does sail a modest sailboat in the uk (very expensive for any kind of boat ownership). Just want to say thanks for the great content and for giving good advice to 'normal yachties'! fair winds,brother!
Saw the title and thought " another youtube expert " to my very pleasant suprize you did an excellent job of explaining a very complicated topic
Crap. "Bathtub full of Volkswagens." I just shot tea out my nose thanks to that!
On topic, I had a small boat with a swing keep but never felt comfortable with it. I now have a slightly larger Tanzer 26 with a full keel and I've hit the sweet spot for the area I sail in - the lower St. John River valley in New Brunswick, Canada.
Really like your video. The way you explain everything is strait forward and very true. I own and currently restore an Alberg 37 (full keel). I personally prefer full keel boats. Speed and agility isn't important to me. I just love the fact how my boat plows thru the waves like a freight train. I don't even have to touch the steering, it just keeps running a strait line. But as you already mentioned, changing course, tacking and so on isn't done as easy and quickly as a fin keel boat. And backing up on engine power is almost impossible. I had my boat for a while in a pretty tight marina and I gave up on backing the boat into my slip. I just stopped the motor, jumped on the dock and turned it around by hand. Heck, going from forward to reverse just to slow the boat down takes just about a half mile to stop it, going only 4 knots, LOL. The last thing I like about full keel boats is as you mentioned the grounding. Sailing around the Florida gulf coast grounding is pretty much common. But with that type of keel it's just annoying, there's never any damage to the boat. Maybe some scratches in the paint if I hit something hard. Thank you for this great video.
Thanks for watching!
I was looking for a boat with world travel potential and I love many of the full keel boats but I was attracted to the added performance and maneuverability benefits of the modified fin keel. Some of my favorite "blue water" boats like the Valiant 40 and passport 40 have that layout.
Nothing better than a full-keeled boat with the rudder mounted on the stern and with a protected prop. There simply is no better configuration for a true blue-water vessel.
The problem however is most boats never go very far off shore but spent most of their time in and around a crowded marina. Here is where the full-keel is no damn good. Their manuverability, particularily In reverse, is nothing short of a nightmare. I never back my boat up without a line tied to the stern (because you never know which way the stern my go.)
Add a bowsprit in the mix and I have a floating shish kabob.
I'm the guy that other boaters hate.
You are overgeneralizing. How long is "long?" Cruisers favor keels where the bottom of the keel is about 1/2 of the waterline length with the rudder attached to the keel.
@@timdunn2257 Of course I'm generalizing since I'm not able to consider every boat hull out there, but to be specific, I have a DownEast 38. It's got a full keel with a cut-away forefoot, shoal draft with the rudder hung on the end of an 8000 lb encapsulated lead ballast.
This may not be the very best blue-water hull configuration but it certainly one of them. And it's absolute hell to handle in the marina. It can also take a grounding (ask me how I know.)
My statement was meant to be a general remark and one I think is shared by others.
@@jamesbaldwin7676 Almost 5 feet deep on your boat isn't so very shoal draft.
@@timdunn2257 The boat was designed to look like something built in the 19th Century and 5 ft draft would certainly have been considered "Shoal" back then. I believe it also makes this claim in the original sales brochure.
@@jamesbaldwin7676 England was famous for very deep draft boats in the early days of yachting, in contrast to beamy, shallow yachts found in America at that time. The point to draft offshore is self righting when knocked down.
For the reasons you said, the full keel is very safe for ocean crossing... but i think they have a flaw for most coastal cruisers I never hear commented on. A full keel is difficult to turn forward and backwards thats understood. Most people dont cross oceans but coastal cruise and will cross many more bars than ocean storms. It is much easier to keep a modified keel boat straight when crossing a bar and being pushed from stern by a wave, than full keel that will broach more easily... and usually pushed into rocks. If most sailing is coastal and crossing a bar every few days, I think the crossover is preferable/safer. You can almost always find shelter when coastal from big storms. As always, it depends on your sailing.
Nice video. You might have omitted A couple of comments for novices who might be considering blue water sailing . 1) The weather is wrong....a lot. I Left Galveston, Tx for the Bahamas on a late may norther that was forecast to last 12-24 hours. Four days later in the middle of Gulf of Mexico the north wind was still blowing 25-30+kts sustained gusting 40+. Two days later the forecast was variable to 10 kts, we woke to 25 kts sustained now out of the east 🤦♂. 2) Prop placement relative to keel. Crab pots, long line fishermen and just junk in the water. I have had fishermen drop their lines right across my course off shore. You can dodge crab pots during the day but at night no way. An exposed prop can create a risk. 3) Bow thruster for the win on full keel port maneuvering 😎. 4) Regarding speed on a full keel: Code Zero or Asymmetrical For speed on a full keel. You can fly them much more often on a full keel and they are easy to use. You can also fly more sail longer. I am still full main and genoa(110%) at 20+. 5) Maybe not about the keel, buy a self tacking staysail is a God send in heavy weather.
Great topic, but I wish that you had touched on swing keels and bilge keels. I would like to hear your opinion one each.
If shoal draft is important, consider catamarans with daggerboards.
I had an O'Day 23 PopTop, 4.5ft keel with 5' of centerboard that gave her draught of 9'6" a nice ride, and she pointed up really well.
...for me...an encapsulated modified (long) fin with a skeg hung rudder.
Never have sailed but I plan to make sailing my last hobby. These vids are so helpful! Thanks.
Best of luck to you!
I started this year. It was a whole lot less expensive than I expected it would be, and the sailing community has been really kind and helpful. I wish I'd have started years ago now I've gotten into it.
Enjoyed this balanced and informative article. It's also obvious that the author knows what he's talking about.
I love my fin keel on my Ericson!! My boat heels well and is very stable, smooth and is a dream. I draw 6 feet when fully loaded with my liveaboard load.
Bulbs and wing keels are nice in shallower water, but if you ground in a soft bottom you are SOL whence you can often "slice" through and wiggle free with a fin keel.
Excellent program. I’ve owned and sailed three different types of boats around the Chesapeake. A 17’ d/s, a 1980 27’ Cherubini designed fin keel Hunter and finally a 1975 35’ Pearson full keel with a center board. Obviously they all sailed differently and I enjoyed them for their unique features. The Pearson was fast to windward with the c/b down and had a lot of room both on deck and below. The Hunter was solid and comfortable and only drew 4’. I rigged each of them to meet my needs. Enjoyed the buying process, sailing them (as long as there was some wind). Each had good yanmar diesel engines while the d/s had a 4hp mercury on an ez in mount.
The two largest were excellent for extended periods and equipped with complete galleys heads and births.
thanks for watching!
Don’t forget the modified fin with centerboard like our Bristol 38.8. 4.5’ board up, 10.5 ‘ down
Full keel also wants to round up quite a lot on a broad reach when the waves catch up to you. Trying to sail 135 degrees off true wind with an old aries windvane 10 years ago the boat would round up to 110 or so and then back down to 150+ making me slightly nervous since I had absolutely no intention of gybing at that time. A full keel is very comfortable close to beam reach in heavy seas as the base of the waves hit the keel first letting the hull "shoulder" into the wave which combined with some wind in the sails keeps the heelangle more or less constant way past the point where you can see the closest waves because of their height obscuring the next one. Edit: If I had to choose all over again I'd say this: for shorthanded cruising I want either the rig or keel to facilitate rebalancing the helm easily. Some old gaffrigged racingcutters facilitate this rebalancing with the centerboard they have in addition to their shallower full keel while some older rigtypes that are very unusual these days rebalance all on their own (luggers, search for "adventures of ocean pearl"). These days you can obviously use powered winches to reef and trim sails every time you change course but I would prefer to not have to rely on such devices without working myself sweaty each time.
There is no answer to this question. Where do you sail? What kind of sailing do you do? Do you want to make long passages/ Most importantly, what is you budget. I sail a traditional long keel Contessa. A good, if slow and wet, sailing yacht. If I one the lottery tomorrow? A big Hallberg or Oyster in a minute. Fin keel, twin rudders and 200 mile days? Yes please! Nice to dream.🙃that was a big one.
How about the best Wednesday night racing boats? I've sailed on both fins and full keel boats, you're so right about compromises. The full keel loves sailing in strong winds and big waves but can't move in light stuff while the fins go like a rabbit close to the wind and can still get along in slight puffs. Decide what you like to do most often, and pick accordingly.
Your stereotype is misleading.
You are forgetting the modified full keel. I've sailed on a number of boats with modified full keels and find them to be maneuverable and relatively quick.
Like the Tayana 37', with the cutaway forefoot?
As a ships mechanic I've seen plenty of full keels with great maneuverability, usually with a slightly lengthened rudder or oversized prop. Those are probably the easiest riding boats I've been at the helm of.
what do really big ships do? Lift up the keel in the harbor, and drop it when they are over the Titanic? I understood that this fancy technique was out of reach then, but the Maltese Falcon does it! I thought of a series of cross tube similar to a bow thruster. Then invest on intake flaps and exit flaps. Still, if a ship grabs deep into the water like a small vessel, shouldn't it be able to sail on the wind like it?
@@ArneChristianRosenfeldt there are retractable keels on some modern sailing vessals
@@jimskywaker4345 Yeah, I just was wondering if there is a relation ship with the number of masts on a ship. Multiple masts is like full keel in my book. You need to pass under a bridge? Retract your mast! Why is it so hard? I would want this feature to adjust for wind speed.
My Bayfield 36 (waterline) cutter had a full keel with a cut back entry. You had to anchor with a sail at the stern to keep her from putting her stern to the wind and bow on the chain.
I was on the longkeel in the video , the yacht Puff for a inspection. The Island Packet was really nice & comfy with even a washing machine aboard. But also bit too expensive. Nice too see the picture in your vid.
You mentioned 2 or 3 times the boat length for an Island Packet turn. This is true only if you leave it in forward as you turn. I recently attended a docking class with the Maryland School of Sailing and they use IP's. We learned to do standing turns in little more than the length of the boat with the aid of its prop walk. Love your videos! : )
Lady K I’m getting lost in the “depths” of boat shopping myself. Your videos are full of valuable information, and all I had to do was subscribe. Thank you
I remember being on a small fishing boat that had a retractable keel. The seas were rough and the small harbor was shallow. It worked but had constant repair issues.
Don't forget, Australia's Ben Lexcon designed the famous winged keel of Australia 2 the boat that won the 1983 America's cup.
I was 33 years old in 1983. I had sailed my own boats on ocean crossings for 12 years in 1983.
@@timdunn2257 I sailed the Northwest Passage, 83 years ago, when I was 12. There was none of this internet nonsense, back then. Only the ocean, and fire for heat.
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894 Wow. You really envy those brave yachties of yore, don't you? How sad.
And we still haven't forgiven him...
@@hxhdfjifzirstc894: the St Roch?
I used to love the annual cleaning and re-painting of the bottom of the Triton an (Alberg designed boat) I used to crew on, on the Chesapeake Bay. I just loved being in the boatyard and seeing the variety of hulls. What's below the waterline of a sailboat is just as beautiful as what's up top. I had a sunfish as a kid, spent summers at Greenwood Lake NY which had a very active Star fleet that raced most weekends. The Star is a beautiful design with a bulb keel and most of the Star owners kept their boats dangling in the air during the week to keep the bottoms from getting fouled.
That was a great explanation . I havr a jet 14. And its got a deep narrow fin keel and want to roll over with every wind change but supper fast . My American Marine has a full displacement hull and full keel yes , heavy and a fright train ! But doesn't seem to notice bad weather .
Great video & thanks for the IP shout out! We cruise the Chesapeake Bay & the 4' draft works well in the creeks & channels.
Enjoyed the video. I had an Allied Seawind 30 ( I think only one of 2 Allied in the UK, the other is a 32). The long keel was fantastically stable and allowed, when balanced for the helm to be left for quite long periods. And in a blow was well able to tale the heel and waves. But not a marina boat. The thought of coming of the fingers at Fleetwood kept me awake at night.... However, when I switched to a swinging mooring at Holyhead I became sold on the long keel. I now have a small fin (Jaguar 21).Zero directional stability unless the helm is firmly gripped. But, as you say , horses for courses. I didn't stay the full course to see if you looked at Bilge keels. Soo useful for the drying harbours. But again a compromise.
Best keel is a full keel with a cutout ahead of the prop. You get directional stability with reasonable performance under power, especially when backing up
My moderate keel boat had a bronze foot that extended far enough aft to make a semi-balanced keel possible. The keel bottom was a bit less than half the waterline length and the rudder hung from it.
A fin keel with a NACA foil profile will give it the maximum lift and minimum drag. She'll point higher into the wind, too. If you want leverage, you cut some 2-4" holes fore and aft in it, low down, and replace the lead with tungsten. Twice the density.
Think just one step out of the box.
Full keels can be great. Very stable tracking. And still trying to run a straight line while you want to turn on a dime.
Horses for courses.
And absolutely nobody uses tungsten. $$$$$$$$$$$ Maximum lift = minimum longitudinal stability. Tungston's hard to work with, and the difference in density isn't twice, but @58% more. Tungston 6,000 # = $90,000. Lead 6,000 # = $2,800.
I have an atkins thistle and find her great, comfortable and secure. Any sailboat will get to hull speed in 15 knots of wind. In lighter conditions a fin keel may be slightly faster but the difference is not worth shouting about. Storm in a teacup! The big difference lies in manuevering in harbour, mine is a dog in this situation but a gem at sea. Mine has much less leeway than most fin keeled yachts.
As an owner of both a fin keel and a full length keel boats, a following sea means a great deal more tiller control as the fin keel boat swivels with the wind as each wave passes underneath. The fin keel has on many occasions sailed at 8 knots, while we are much more comfortable at 5 knots on our full keel boat. Following seas are not problem for the full keel boat.
the final advise about "if you are worried about it get the island packet" is sound advise just like when you suggest to the person who is afraid of getting in an accident "ok just get the big suv and you will be safer"
I would disagree with your statement that a full keel boat needs 2-3 times its length to turn around. You can spin it on it's axis but it take a lot of effort and is definitely harder. But it is doable with enough practice.
Yes, you have to back the foresail, and cast it off at just the right moment to keep it from paying off too far - by bringing the foresail in for the new tack promptly.
thanks - i have just finished a Med flotilla having had power vessels all of my life. I plan is to spend a couple of years sailing with my wife. We thought we would do some sailing holidays first before committing to the purchase of a yacht. i'm already learning so much from your videos! 👌😁
I whole-heartedly agree with all you say ... but you are missing out on one HUGE issue - the fin keel rudder. The same type of rudder the orcas off Gibraltar love to chew off. The usual unsupported fin keel rudder, without a substantial skeg strong enough to take a grounding or hitting a log or ship container, for instance. Without that insurance, I would never make a deep salt crossing again.
I see a negative review, I say to myself, "Ooh! They'll probably actually describe the product experience!" You did a very respectable job of just that.
I bought a project boat 19 feet on my way up from a dinghy with a lifting center board, so a lifting keel was not totally unfamiliar.
The advantage were great.
I could still get into small bays and anchorages, I could still beach the boat ⛵ in lighter winds I could lower only partially the keel.
I don't think it would work on big boats but anything up to around 22 feet , its worth mention and consideration.
I can't say I have a lot of experience in sailing. But our 1965 Van de Stadt Andromeda 50 with it's modified hull sails beautifully. 7Bf and only the 25m² Fok (jib) and we averaged 9kts while not noticing the 1,5m waves. So comfortable and even in the numerous small harbours in Greece it was so maneuverable that we only needed our ship length to turn. Great sailing on something like that
Thanks for your analysis !!! I'm an old offshore sailor who had five sailboats & I sailed from England to the Caribbean, the USA Atlantic east coast, Panama, French Polynesia, Hawaii Vancouver etc... I even sailed single handed offshore in my last & preferred sailboat an Ericson 34' third hand very well kept 😄I think my choice for offshore cruising would be a centerboard boat, not only to have access to shallow bay but also the safety offshore in a gale when I would raise the centerboard(s) to slide down the waves without the risk of stumbling on a fixed keel
Coworker was sailing a boat of unknown size from SF to San Diego, a route they had sailed numerous times. Rogue wave rolled them and they capsized, they didn't see it coming. Wife was lost, but he was rescued after a few days. I assume a robust keel would help against waves coming abeam - to a certain point.
I’ve got a Cape George 45, big heavy full keel boat, and I’m not sure it is slower than a fin keel alternative. 30 knots wind and I can have all canvas up and she still seems safe, and very fast because the ballast allows for all that canvas. I will say she turns about as well as a train, though. Also going astern happens without any expectation of directional control.
Curiously perhaps, the 1st non-centerboard boat I learned on in the Navy was a Columbia 25 back in 1968. It was a full keel. The first one I actually bought back in 1974 however was a Newport 27 with a fin keel. (I started on a Columbia 15 centerboard boat B4 I qualified on the 25.)
My 21 ft buccaneer has a full keel, It's can be a pain sometimes sailing on the Saint John river but it's so stable it more than makes up for it. Tacking in light wind must be done carefully to make sure you get around without stalling.
Back the foresail when coming about until you have paid off convincingly, and then bring the foresail in for the next tack quickly.
@@timdunn2257 Thank you so much for the tip. We just recently started sailing ( I grew up in Muskoka windsurfing and dingy sailing occasionally) so my wife and I are beginners and any tips or tricks are greatly appreciated.
I like a deep fin with a spade rudder. I had full keels with skegs etc and they handled like pigs. Only downside with deep fin is well, doesn't work well in shallow waters (Florida, Yucatan Coast, etc). My last boat was a Hunter 410 with the deep option and I spent 10 years in the Yucatan with that thing. Many harbours I could not get into but I loved how well that thing sailed and pointed.
When I first learned to sail my dad learned in a Cal 20 with a bulb keel and outboard rudder. Subsequently graduated to a Cal 28 and then a Cal 36, and those two boats demonstrated the superiority of fin keels and spade rudders for both maneuverability and their ability to point. Lightweight, fast, responsive, yet stable. Our last boat was a Columbia 50 with a bilge keel, and while it was a gorgeous boat, it was a stone upwind. We did a lot of competitive racing back in the early 70s and learned really quickly that a bilge keel wasn't going to cut it on a short course. We won a lot of offshore races where the predominant point of sail was a beam reach; but we sacrificed a lot not having a fin keel as far as performance on a race course. If cruising is your thing, full keel is probably the way to go for comfort and safety. If you want to race as much as cruise you're going to need a fin keel and spade rudder.
I have strong feelings on which keel is best for cruisers. I'd go for a modified encapsulated fin keel with shoal draft. I intend to go into shallow water where I can get good protection and I will probably run aground. The encapsulated keel of my 28' S2 (3'10" draft) was great as I never worried about keel failure. Integrated over time, a shoal draft keel is much safer than a deep draft keel as it allows you to get to safe harbors that a deep draft keel cannot go. I dont worry about ability to point into the wind as I normally want to only do downwind cruising. Long distance cruising to windward sucks. If I have to go to windward, I use the engine with a sail to prevent rolling.
A very interesting option might be bilge keels as they are meant for shallow water. If I built another boat she'd have bilge keels.
My family owns a yacht (Midget 31) is a full keel and even continues into the rudder. I can agree that making manoeuvres is not easy but we always have tricks for that. We use during sailing the sails and when in a harbour (close to a little wall under the water) we put a line 3 places further and move that way. For the wind its beginning to move ok at 7 knots but is very nice at 10 knots.
This all depends on what you are using the boat for. If racing a fin or bulb. For cruising a full keel, gives more stability and the prop is more protected. But if your on a mooring that drise out a bilge keel is a must. Just my 2 cents.
Nice, clear comparison of all the advantages and disadvantages, thanks. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on bilge keels, especially for ocean crossings.
Bilge keels are rare. They are favored for the kind of English harbor where the boat is kept on a mooring and dries out at low tide.
I have done a few passages with bilge keel just short hops of between 250 and 500 NM of open ocean and it was as good as a single keel , points 25deg to the wind sailed happily with a rail under just well mannered. Been hit with 40 knt wind no drama . That was a 28ft boat
I think the true hybrid keel is the Passport 40 or Valiant 40 style keel, which in essence are long run keels with a cutout at the back and the forefoot removed. These are fully integral keels, ie part of the boat, they are still very long giving almost railroad directional stability, and you can still hit reefs with them.
The more modern modified fins are really just squat fin keelers, and you're generally in for some major floor work if you take on a reef at 6 knots.
Good review of the options and compromises with various keel designs. I always thought our Morgan 32 shallow draft keel (5') with a skeg hung rudder was the perfect vessel for coastal cruising out of Panama City FL. The keel stepped mast was added peace of mind. The Morgan was great for getting in and out of shallow anchorages. And dream trips to the Keys and Bahamas. But gotta admit a friend's Endeavor 42 that I had a chance to sail on in the Bahamas was a very comfortable experience in varied conditions. A riding sail helped at anchor in windy conditions.
I love my Catalina 30 standard rig, and standard fin configuration. It's a great upwind boat. Very well behaved, so easy to single hand. I've seen about 7.3 knots upwind, 11.3 down wind with the Genoa and main. I don't have a kite or pole of any sort. It's a constant focus situation dead downwind when 18+ knots. It loves a broad reach. Great explanation of different types of keels Tim. I believe my girl is around 5.25' draft, so not too bad for shoals
Everything loves a broad reach. I owned a 43 foot Catalina once. It had the shallow wing keel, which I did not like.
Here in the UK, I tried a number of different keel formats, one of the best for fast cruising and reasonably shallow draft, for me, turned out to be a wing keel. It had lots of lift, remained stable and felt safe at anchor if caught in a late night squall with only a skeleton watch on deck!
What would be your strategy if grounded on a falling tide...stand upright or try to get her to lay over?
I have a Ted Hood designed Paceship Westwind. It's one of his designs with the "delta form hull" (aka whale belly). It's a deep V hull with a rounded bottom. Lots of internal ballast down low, and a swing centreboard.
When I was a teenager my uncle bought a 28' gulfweed ketch. One week end we went to Santa Catalina Island. About 2/3 the way there, the wind picked up as and started pushing some 12' to 15 ' swells which I thought was great. My uncle not so much. As soon as we came into the lee of the island the went down and we arrived at Forth of July Cove no worse for our small adventure.
Thanks for the video, very informative.
You are missing one of my favorite. Bilge (twin) keels. Like it because they are low draft but they are also great for drying out with. They do have much more drag an less maneuverable than a fin. I have also considered a centerboard boat as it two fits the shallow draft (when up) and good to dry the boat out. That said I have never done the centerboard thing.
Got a small bilge Keeler myself, shallow draft and the ability to dry out is awesome. In fact my mooring dries out daily, not many other designs that could manage that.
Dried out moorings is the natural habitat for my Ovini with it's swing keel
The Hake Seaward 46RK. The only sailboat in the world with a retracting 7,500lb fin bulb keel. Only 9 of them made. The keel retracts all the way up inside the bottom of the hull to have a minimum draft of 2.5' and with the keel all the way down, a maximum draft of 7'. My boss and I took one sailing for a sea trial and I was blown away with its performance. It was extremely fast in every direction, and very nice to have all electric winches. It wasn't as comfortable as my Morgan 41, but it did sail extremely well. Overall, the boat was fantastic and very beautiful. Unfortunately the cost of one is very high, usually upwards of $450k.
Steel boat, Long keel here, i always feel very safe offshore in mine. She sails straight with very little input, can tick off 150nm a day without too mhch fuss, takes nasty weather in her stride. I dont do marinas often, but she is fine to manuever but not as easy as the tupperware boats. She is more susceptible to cross currents for sure though.
Absolutely false. Boats float in the water, and they will go sideways if the water is moving sideways. It's WIND that makes a difference - if the WIND is blowing from sideways, the long keel resists leeway better than a fin keel.
@@timdunn2257 what are you on about?
Thanks for this video. For those of us that don't get to sail until we retire and move to Florida, can you do an addenda on the swing keel? That versatility intrigues me...
The main take-away should always be to get a keel type that suits your location, and the conditions you are likely to experience. A long keel sails fantastic in the Baltic sea, with its rough, irregular wave pattern, however you shouldn't take it to the Southern Ocean (see reports regarding the Golden Globe Race and the weakness of long keel boats in those conditions.)
A short keel will allow you some superb racing and fast cruising, however the course stability of a long keel can be a real benefit if sailing single handed, etc.
Also noteworthy: if you are sailing in tidal waters, a twin keel can be awesome. ;)
My "In my Head", Sailboat
Has retractable keel and airplane wing type setup.
Like collase drinking cups.
And wind turbine on top main mast, I think a turbine could be used as a sail while making power and directly driving a prop.
$0.02
The profiles shown at the beginning of the video are extremes. Something like a Cape Dory is in between these extremes, and is a good compromise for offshore cruising. I speak from experience.
Thank you so much for your great podcasts.
I had a 1970s bilge keel yacht which was great for drying out in small Cornish harbours. But it was useless to windward.
Your comment on compromise reminds me of the description of an aircraft I heard once: "A series of compromises flying in close formation". Boats? "A hole in the water you throw money into".
There's also the other option, best of both worlds, just go with more than one hull, speed, shallow draft, steady performance, if you have a tendency to motion sickness, go for a catamaran, if you have adhd, go for the trimaran, and yes, also like the bilge keel on both mono hull and multihull, there's a lot of safety in speed and shallow draft, outrun a storm, or creep up on a beach behind an island.
Back in the early '70s, my old man had a Islander Bahama 24 with a full keel. His buddy had a Pearson 26 with a fin. Yes, the Pearson was marginally faster (around a1/2 to 3/4-knot advantage to the Pearson), and could point higher into the wind. BUT on Lake Erie where the waves kick up in a hurry, the Pearson would pound on 3-4-foot waves whereas the Islander cut through the waves because of the shape of the hull at the front. Later, the Old Man bought a fin keel Catalina 30 with a fin keel ... It rode like a bucking bronco! The round bottom front hull would ride up on the short-period Lake Erie waves, where the full-keel would slice through.
Fast forward a few years, and the Old Man retired and was looking for his ocean-going boat to sail the world, and he found a Challenger 38 ketch with a full keel. He added a 4' bowsprit to allow for twin jibs, and along with the addition of a main topsail which technically turned it into a cutter-rigged Ketch. VERY stable for long-distance sailing on the open ocean. With the (relatively) short masts allowing for more sail area down low.compared to a sloop rig, it did not heel nearly as much. The sails could be set for days at a time! in 1984, he was (single-handing) sailing from the Bahamas to Bermuda in the same major storm that sunk a couple of Tall Ships. No he didn't have all of those sails up in the storm, but the Challenger made it through with no damage, although HE did have to stay awake for 60 hours straight! After provisioning in Bermuda, he then sailed on across the Atlantic... but that's another story...
Islander, Catalina and Challenger boats were all built within a few miles of each other in the Los Angeles area...
My 1979 Freedom 40 has a full keel with a centerboard. She draws 4.3' board up and, 10' with the board down.