The big thing I didn't know was how exactly online changes a characters placement on a tier list. You explained that aspect really well instead of just saying "projectile characters become better with no explanation". This is incredibly well-done video.
@@aabfnrjkfnvrofnfnrpldcbrko9027 Ken and Ryu have attacks that are fairly strong on there own and canceling inputs is not very difficult if you are fighting someone with a decent connection.
@@dazeen9591 I play FighterZ and sfv on wifi sometime's when I don't feel like moving. With the ability to see your opponents connection, it's a lot better than what smash offers. (you could probably argue against sfv though for sure)
@@CamFGC Yeah I would because SFV for me was completely unplayable to the point where I was waiting 30 minutes to play one match which ended up having like at least 3 seconds of delay
More issues with online: - You get penalized for just playing for fun without worrying about GSP, because then your low GSP tends to match you with people with bad internet. - Arena isn't a great alternative because of waiting queues, and bad logistics around spectating vs queuing to play. - The tournament mode is mostly free for alls. - If the opponent disconnects AFTER hitting the blast zone on their final stock, no GSP for you. Having myself disconnected (unintentionally due to internet issues), the quitter loses GSP BUT the game doesn't tell you, so it fails as a deterrent and only the player who did nothing wrong feels punished. - Game: "Rematch?" Me: "No, because they just spammed lame moves that abuse lag." Game: "Lol so your next opponent will be the person you just declined." - Switch's wifi adapter is weak and you can't expect most other players to have bought a third party ethernet adapter. - Input buffering combined with the inconsistent lag can lead to all sorts of accidental actions, which can be really bad due to the platforming part of smash. - Occasionally rules that you didn't agree to pop up. Rather than each player selects one very specific ruleset, and the game aims for "close enough", why not let players select a range of acceptable rules (I don't really care if it's 4 mins or 7 mins, and I actually like all stages if it isn't forced on unwilling opponents), but never match outside of what you agree to (final smash meter can die in a fire) - In quickplay, what if you could select between a casual and competitive mode, but either way it uses GSP to match to a similarly skilled opponent? You only match against opponents using the same mode, and GSP only changes in competitive mode. If you happen to hit elite smash or if the opponent requests it, you can switch from competitive to casual mode so you can keep playing. Some of these things could be pretty easily fixed by software updates if Nintendo wanted to...
I stopped online completely. It's utterly garbage. I can't tell you how many times dash attacks come out as forward smash and just make me lose games.. No point wasting time on that trash when the timing is so different offline
Yep. I want to love this game so much. Been waiting for Ridley and K. Rool for 15 years and now they're finally here and the game just... sucks. Terrible single player. Terrible buffer lag. The worst online experience of all time. Massive disappointment and I don't expect Nintendo to ever change. They just don't care. I actually think they're proud of their awful online service.
I get 1, 3, 5 and 6 a lot. It's annoying. And my god, how are we still not able to switch characters in quick play yet? And I don't get why gsp is locked to every character in the game? Makes me conscious as hell, there's still some characters I haven't used yet as a result.
@@Sol_Calibre at this point i think time practicing offline with a bot has more value than trying to use online. No point practicing when the timing is absolutely shit online
Great video! As a game programmer myself I would like to give some technical insight on the implementation of a rollback system. A rollback system does not require multiple instances of the game to exist. You do not need to render the character's model's twice or the stage twice. What you need is a list of user inputs and character states. Using this list you can recalculate where the character should be. This isn't as expensive as it might sound. Also I don't think I quite agree with "It's already impressive that it can run on the Switch in the first place". This depends heavily on the stage but smash is actually a great example of something you can run with very high fidelity but with high performance. For example let's compare it with Zelda botw. The amount of models and terrain is many times higher than that of smash. The reason they perform well is because of the smart usage of LOD, terrain optimization, and many other optimization techniques used. There are many objects constantly moving around that are rigged and interacting with light in complicated ways. Smash is great because most of the scene is 2.5D and is static. This means a lot of the lighting can be baked easily and be made extremely cheap to calculate. It's opportune for many optimizations. (Some stages do require dynamic lighting tho, which can be significantly more heavy to run) There are many possible reasons why Nintendo didn't implement a rollback system. But as someone who implemented low-level sockets I can guarantee you that it is possible to implement in smash on the switch. And the switch is definitely capable of running it. EDIT: As this now has been pinned I figured it would make sense to give some further light onto technical aspects involved in a rollback system. If you're interested to know more about it I recommend to give an article on gamasutra called "Rollback Networking in INVERSUS" a read. EDIT EDIT: Seems like the edit broke the pin. Welp
Similar but unrelated. Can I just take a moment to ask, why the fk does my Z button sometimes come out as a jab instead of grab or a neutral air instead of a Zair?! Like for real, that shit pisses me off. This issue has existed in smash for multiple entries now, it's not a controller issue, has to be some kind of programming issue. I get that C stick inputs are recognized as a macro for direction + A button input, but Z is a completely different button with a different purpose. It's not like I press B input and an A input comes out. Hell sometimes I go to grab input and my shield comes out.... Like for real.... WHY?!
The actual reason why they chose against rollback is probably the SDI mechanic, I'd say. Unlike regular fighting games where most inputs don't matter both for comboing and getting comboed, it's only true for the former in Smash. So even if followup hits had connected the Game still needs to recalculate your position for every Input of SDI, which I'd imagine would be rather janky. I think rollback is still the far better choice regardless though, because I'd rather have a good SDIer teleport out of my Combo sometimes than Stop&Go Gameplay.
i will never buy an ethernet adapter, i rather not play smash ever again, the fact that the system doesn't have an ethernet adapter in the dock is insulting
@Frenzied Unicorn Productions i mean in other companies have games outside of shooters and racing games. i mean i take that you like platformers but with the indie companies producing exciting and better platformers than vanilla kirby mario or yoshi crafted world, whats the reason? tropical freeze is their best platformer but even that has alternatives like yooka layle impossible layer
@@buffkangaroodog i haven't given up on it, since its my go to to play independent games, and snes online is pretty good plus i play a lot of mario maker, but i think once my online membership expires ill be done, if i want to play snes ill just get an emulator and i can play mario maker one on the wiiu
And yes everyone, this is from Zero's meme video (in case you didn't understand where I was getting the meme from). All credit goes to the creator of the meme and Zero.
"Nintendo just doesn't know what online multiplayer really is." Then how the heck did the first Splatoon game win best multiplayer at the game awards in 2015 anyway?
@@mannb1023 It’s still not perfect. Brellas sometimes get shot while holding the brella up infront of someone due to regional differences. The game doesn’t count a match in quad league battle if everyone disconnects, the game has multiple very inconsistent ranking systems. You can win and get 10 points, then lose and lose 50 points
My secondary (Lucina) is at 78,000 , my main Bowser is at 2.3 mil, and for whatever reason, my meme character, which I don't play and use the dumb options with, the 3rd worst character King K Rool, is about 1 million away from elite smash
@@kush7138 This dude really charging a Smash Attack from a foot away from me? Easy Counter. Online: You suck, you didn't input anything, you're a loser, give me 500,000 GSP
@@nonplayercharacter12333 lmfao How about this one during FFA or Doubles: Me: okay I just dodged that final smash and my opponent got into it, I'm safe. Online: oh you think so? This animation is quite long. Looks like you shouldn't had dodged off the stage good buddy. Now lose that stock and take you L having ass home.
So many Bowser plays love this. I swear there have been so many times where I saw Bowsers FSMASH or side B coming from a mile away, yet even though I'm pretty sure I've hit the button's fast enough to shield or dodge, I get hit or grabbed anyway.
I just hate ranking system in smash, it really discourages me to play my main in online. I'm always worried that a million GSP is gonna taken away from me.
@@justscrollingby8384 but it determines if your opponent is going to be a laggy ness rolling and spamming b moves. And arenas are garbage because of the 10-20 minute wait (depending on how many players). Good players usually are in arenas with 5-7 players.
Everyone: "Smash ultimate's netcode is probably the worst netcode in a fighting game ever Street fighter v netcode: Finally a worthy opponent, our battle will be legendary
sfv netcode is good by comparison. unless you limit yourself to playing close or good connections delay will always suck more than sfv, especially since they made the netcode far better now. hardly ever get any bad matches and even the bad ones are better than most of smash ultimates
Didn't really notice this as much before. I play almost only online due to most friends not having an interest in smash. Played offline yesterday with a buddy and I do believe I'll not go back to online play. The difference was immeasurable. It's a completely different game!
No one ever mentions the stacking timed bans due to disconnections every match is a dice roll between a perfectly fine game, a laggy game or a disconnect warning/banned. Why must I be punished for the their shitty online?
Word so when i face a laggy opponent, i just SD myself as quickly as possible to avoid the ban bc Nintendo will punish me even though the communication error is the other person's fault. Laggers exploit the lag too so i ain't fighting with my hands tied to my back, I'm out.
I think you were the first out of about 20 youtubers that I saw that actually went into detail on what makes characters better on wi-fi. Also, what I’ve noticed is that you usually get way more GSP when you play a character you have just started playing online, or haven’t played for a while. Also if your in extremely low GSP (I’m talking like 130k GSP) and you win/lose, your GSP will go almost nowhere.
I have a feeling it's very affected by your w/l ratio at a certain GSP level. Like I've been trying to get Terry into Elite and I've been sitting in the 6.6~6.8 mil range for awhile. I lost like six straight matches (yay lag and trying to hit combos against projectile characters!) and ended up around 5.5 mil. I won a few times but not as many as I had just lost, got back to about 6.7 mil, then won four more straight matches in that GSP range, mostly against those ranked higher than me, and only made it to just over 6.9mil. My w/l below 6 mil is very high, but my w/l in the 6.6-6.8 is probably about 50% at this point. What's really weird is I'll beat a 6.9mil person and get like 20k GSP, then get matched with a 5.7mil person and gain 80k, even when I'm sitting at 6.6. Infuriating.
DriveByWire same experience. I got elite smash twice. And lost 1st match both times in elite smash and got kicked out lol. And since then I’ve gone back and forth from 6.6-6.9 mil. And when lag of opponents is bad I drop to 6 mil or less when I loose a few in a row. Online sucks
It could be fixed if they changed the netcode with a major software update. Nintendo has the money to do it they just choose not to because they dont give a fuck
@@hatchell18 It's more like the dev team doesn't know how to implement rollback. They don't know anyone that knows how to implement rollback. It's not Nintendo. It's more like Sakurai and the dev team. Other games play just fine. Not that I'm a Nintendo fan, but I'm so tired of people blaming Nintendo. Although they do use crappy servers. But it's not all on Nintendo.
Mostly the lag. Yeah the lag. I remember in smash 4 where the lag was so bad that is just mercy kill myself than sit through another 5 minutes of lag aka get banned. Also cheap teams like dual Belmont 's and k rool and ridley.
I try to use slower Ariel players like mewtwo because he’s so much fun to use when there isn’t lag. But when there is, it’s a fucking pain because you know how good this guy can be when you pull off his combos. I’ve actually given up playing online for a couple of months now.
Honestly, thank you so much for this video. I was going blind with rage returning to online after a 5 month break, getting frustrated at a lot of the stuff you pointed out in this video, but seeing it all broken down, understanding why these things were happening and that I am far from alone genuinely helped me to get in a better mindset about playing online. Whereas I was taking it far too seriously before, thinking that I had completely lost my game and was just utter trash now, I can now understand the difference between what is my own limitation and what is just online jank. I was seriously in a massive funk before watching this and now I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Thank you once again.
I lose online and I start to lose my confidence and everything. I start feeling like I can't even beat my cousins. Even though they literally press one button in a pattern. Being the worst at online and losing games just make me feel like trash even if I know I can beat them offline. Online destroys me for the rest of the day.
8:22 There's no servers in most fighting games out there. The game directly connects both consoles, doing a Peer-to-peer connection. The same thing happens for 4-player games, when one player will be the host, and when the 3 other players will connect to it. 8:52 That's a complete lie. MK11, Skullgirls, Lethal League and other games on Switch, all have Rollback netcode. It has nothing to do with the actual Switch hardware. It's all about the game. The rest are bullshit claims as well. The only thing a game need to have a functional Rollback netcode, is to implement savestates. When you can go back and forth to a previous state of the game. This is what Rollback netcode uses to resimulate a situation, when the prediction isn't the same as what really happened. Emulators allow anybody to have savestate on tons of game. Even Brawl. So, theoretically, even P+ could have Rollback Netcode, if savestates can be implemented within Brawl. The savestates and rollbacks are actually working on the actual inputs, taken by the game. As long as the game is deterministic, meaning that the same inputs and pre-conditions will result in the same exact game being displayed (how in-game replay works), a game can have savestate, and can have Rollback netcode.
Whoever is reading through this comment thread, please put this thread at the top by liking the main comment. Yeah, I was also a bit perplexed when he said the Switch wasn't capable of implementing rollback. Even KI has a simple way of rollback by just using the same inputs that the player did a few frames ago. It's not the Switch's lack of power, it's the negligence of Nintendo and Bamco that is preventing this from happening.
I'm a +1 at being annoyed by his statement, too. The game isn't all the polygons and textures and crap they paint over the game, it's a collection of simple rectangular, triangular and circular bounding boxes. Proper rollbacking just needs a few KB of RAM free to save a few object positions and action states. The developers just simply don't care about this aspect of the game. Nintendon't care. Have another palette swap of Marth instead of a cool pegasus knight, we know you luv them so.
When my friends ask me how to improve, I have a lot of advice. But I always end it with 'oh and stop playing online so much. You'll just reinforce a lot of bad habits and you'll lose irl when you fall back into what works for you online.'
The unholy trinity of the buffering system, being the laggiest smash game offline and the online being so shit made me quit Ultimate in 2 weeks. It was so bad that I didn't even buy the fighter's pass and I haven't touched the game since January 2019.
It's crazy because I don't blame you like Armada said, smash ultimate has potential to be one of the greatest Smash games of all time but it is one of the most depressing Smash games of all time because you're just watching all its potential go away, like watching Gohan become nobody after the Cell Games
@@smashmaster521 It's the laggiest in terms of when an input is inputted it takes the most frames for that input to appear on screen offline compared to other smash games.
There are so many things about the online that you didn't even mention like: Not being able to queue up for games with a friend for doubles anymore, the fact that you have no idea what rules you are going to get - even in Elite smash (I have lost so many games because it's set to 3 minutes, items are on, smash meter is on, stage hazards are on, etc.), the fact that who's rules it goes with is completely random so you can get your opponent's rules 10 times in a row, the fact that you could have a massive damage lead on your opponent but because you have the same number of stocks left it goes to sudden death, not being able to veto maps, there not being a ranked/unranked option, there not being a desired connection option, etc. DCing is another thing. Why do you get a temp ban if you leave a game? If you know you are going to lose then you shouldn't be punished by leaving. It should benefit both people. You get a loss and your opponent gets a win, but you don't have to wait around to lose. And if the game is stupid enough for the winner to not get any points if the loser DCs then obviously this is something that should have been fixed a long time ago. Also, what is the point of adding someone you played against to your friends list? You can't send them messages and you can't invite them to games. So what is the point? Why do we have to pay for this?
I recently got one character on Elite Smash by accident and I can say that, in the 4 years I have been playing this game, more often online than offline there are moments that you clearly know what is comming but you feel sluggish, like there is a ball and chain on you. And many can say it is "skill issue" and be unecessarily toxic about it, but truth is, as much as I love Nintendo, when it comes to online gaming is *very* outdated.
bro same, i only clicked because i couldnt believe someone spent 20 minutes talkin about how smash netcode sucks. figured there was something i didnt already know about smash online sucking. nope. still just sucks lol
Adding also: *the sensitivity of inputs, the c-stick shenanigans, and the buffer system.* *Sensitivity:* Ultimate is insanely responsive in that it only takes the slightest of control stick movements to turn around, input a direction, etc. This is fine offline as you can learn the timings, but due to the jitter online you will turn around before you attack, recover the wrong way, input the wrong move, drift too far when trying to sweetspot the ledge, etc. This is because the jitter (aka lag spikes) make it harder to time stuff on reaction, but also because two inputs that were on the same frame offline can be pushed to more than a frame apart by lag spikes. So an input for Sheik to down-b and immediate fade back can become a grenade (side-b) input. *C-stick shenanigans:* You have to return the c-stick to the dead center in order to use it again. This is also annoying offline, but online your center input is often eaten or you simply mistime it due to jitter. *Buffer:* It makes you do crazy stuff sometimes. Offline you can learn to play around it with good timing, but online its just going to do its thing. Also that extra 6 frames of online lag makes it impossible to know whether you've been hit by an attack. If you try to shield an incoming attack you might find yourself airdodging offstage.
Also online makes some characters literally impossible to play at a proficient level. When the last time you saw an online rosalina and luma ? Chances are you haven't she's the 4tg least played character online. This is because she's an extremely technical character. Most of her inputs need to be performed within 2 frames or less and online it's through luck that she likes it off or it's exponentially harder to do than offline. I'm good offline with Rosa but online she's terrible
Your forgetting one thing, happened to me a couple days ago actually so thought I’d share. If your opponent leaves the match, even if he’s on his last stock and the death animation plays you don’t get the gsp. I was furious at this and was hoping you’d point that out
If we look at other games such as intense fighting games with need for frame perfect reactions (ex dragonball fighters, the online is built to accompany that with little input delay and at least telling you how much frames of delay you have). Smash ultimate online doesnt even say how delayed you are, which makes it much harder to adapt to the online situation.
I played a lot of online matches that when it lags I don't even notice it, I just keep playing. But when I played with my cousin in offline who always beat me back then, suddenly lost to me. I was playing so good, but when I played online again I found myself playing slow.
That was a really solid, thorough explanation of the competitive community's grievances with the online system. Shame it's probably going to stay in that state (for the reasons you mentioned) but the video, at least, was entertaining.
Hot take: Originally, the game designers wanted to make a non competitive fighting game and since that day, they kept trying to remove the competition. So adding lag makes it so great players cannot make fast high level decisions as accurately as possible, flattening the skill curve
It really, really seems like the 6 frame lag offline was intended to be used as time they could sacrifice online to make the experiences feel the same, but they DIDN'T. It's so, so weird.
Yeah Nintendo always seems to target Smash to the casual players which is just a shame since Smash is supposed to be a game that targets both the casual and pro players and yet they don’t care about the pros because it’s Nintendo :(
So I’ve recently (midway thru last year) decided to pick up this game after getting a switch because I used to love playing melee growing up and seen videos of ultimate on RUclips that made me obsessed with it and wanna get good at it. Since then I’ve attended a couple local tourneys in which I’ve done horribly at. Which is ok. But the issue I seem to be running into is that no matter how good I get at smash thru online practice I’m still no good at locals offline, and on top of that I keep trying to get into elite smash (and get very close) but lose a match and then lose another and then it all goes down hill. And with no close friends who play this game I haven’t really been able to practice it in it’s true combo offline form. So it’s super hard to gauge wether or not I’m actually getting better at the game at all. When it seems like absolute idiots can get elite smash by doing the most stupid options and I (an intellectual) am unable. This video has confirmed a lot of things I been feeling bout the game recently and was very helpful in my own understanding of how it all works and y I’m not succeeding (apart from my own learning process and genuinely losing to better players) thanks pop n lock it
If you really want to get better, practice on training mode and against cpu with your character, and against other players your best bet is finding a discord server or something where you can get arena matches with people that are close to you and have a good connection. It's not ideal, you're still going to have to deal with minimum online delay at best, but it's better than quickplay.
@@AlquimistEd Even playing against the CPU is kinda dubious for getting better because you get used to fighting opponents with very little (read: no) understanding of the depth of any situation. You get used to doing combos in a certain way, but the CPU doesn't DI correctly or use available options well so certain things that you ingrain into muscle memory don't work when you go against a real opponent. It still helps, but it can really build some bad habits. The only way to get better in a way that will really transition into offline competitive gameplay is to play locals, which is unfortunately not an option right now. Training mode is nice too, although I wish you could program DI and hit a button to reset both characters to an exact position and damage %. At the end of the day, the competitive scene in these games will always be an afterthought for Nintendo as they prove over and over through their inaction at extremely obvious problems that the community are vocal about.
@@tongpoo8985 It all depends on skill level, you *can* improve by playing vs cpus especially if you're a low/low-mid level player, if anything it's at least good to practice reactions and punishes.
it's either locals or online, you can't train your brain for both, online has lag and ur brain adapts to that, if u almost reach elite u r pretty good. the intellectual approach will give u the upper hand in the end, but i think you know yourself that that won't be enough to get into elite, unleash your inner DDD : )))
I feel so relieved watching this. There was always a feeling that the same match offline would shake out different. Seeing that there's an obvious change in the way you have to play online is really cathartic and brings an explanation I knew was there but didn't know how to explain.
Really liked this video, I'm a living example of how this is real. I'm an elite smash joker, and after getting pretty good online. I tried going to an offline tournament, and barely got past the first 50% of players. I've noticed that I have a lot to learn about offline play vs online play. Unfortunately, I only got to play in two offline tournaments before the whole pandemic. Thanks for the information, this is a really good video!
One of ness’ only weakness online is his up b recovery. If there is a lag spike at any point while he’s using up b, ness will most likely miss himself and die
I've only ever played one online game of Smash in Ultimate. The entire time my framerate hovered around 10 fps, and it was enough to make me feel sick after a few short minutes (no ethernet, but I have very good internet speeds and almost never get motion sickness from games). On top of that, the player that won the match was constantly teabagging every time they stunned or ko'd another player. That one small interaction was enough for me to decide I never wanted to bother again. The completionist in me is forever sad though that I will have to stare at that blank "Online" challenges page until I die.
JackPauler4Lyfe it was a tier list And all those characters were put in bottom tier. It wasn’t a big brain combo section. It was a bad characters section
@@eddiemate oh sure but they're like 3 or four hits max that do ridiculous amounts of damage. Which dont get me wrong are hype. But they're not brawler fighter style combos.
Reminder that spectators also add extra lag on top of that lag between players :) this gets even worse when there are more than one spectators. Its so bad many players playing online tournaments request to NOT be on stream so that they dont have to deal with spectator lag
Also Input Buffering in ultimate is ridiculous. The hold input buffer + input delay + lag = doooom. I understand rollback netcode is almost definitely outside of the switch's performance point for 3+ players. But surely it's possible for 1v1 without sacrificing too much visually. Another option is they could take our Nintendo Online money and host actual dedicated servers and switch from a P2P delay mode to C2S. C2S would at least stabilize your ping match to match and make the authoritative voice on what happens the server instead of each client having to wait for each other. IMO C2S is probably the best solution and makes the most sense given we're paying them for the service.
The problem with servers and fighting games are it puts one player at a disadvantage. If I have a ping of 70 to a server and the other guy has a ping of 10 then I'm at such a massive disadvantage that the game just isn't worth playing. If they add tech to sync the players input delay then input delay then whats the point of servers to begin with.
I agree with this.. however, there was a time when Nintendo was OFFERED dedicated servers in order to run their services significantly better.. but ultimately declined. Why? Because Nintendo is a cheapskate company and only want the cheapest possible outcome. Which is why they don't put many square reps because of the copyright and money that square asks for the character to be in. It's not just a simple question of, "ummm yes square I will need cloud and Tifa in smash... Oh? Umm they're quite a hefty price. I think we'll just take cloud." Nintendo has always been this way and I doubt they will try to make a change for the masses.
@@bio0link No matter what connection architecture you use, you're putting one player at an advantage based on their connection. With a strict lock step p2p system, the person with the worse internet is usually at the advantage since they are used to playing their games with 10 frame delays on everything. I'd argue the advantage difference between two slightly different but still sub 100ms pings to a server is not that great. Anything over 100ms and you kinda shouldn't be playing online competitive games. FPS games have always used a C2S system and yeah, people with over 150ms pings can experience weird things like getting shot when they think they are behind cover. But it's not too big of a deal and at the end of the day, you know your internet is a mess and have to accept the whompings that come from it.
@@ZombieApocalypse09 Your taking such a leap of logic with your first points its unbelievable. "they are used to it" Mhh no but even if we agree here, at least physically they are on equal lvls which is important. The problem with servers and your FPS comparison are. 1. 2 different types of games with 2 different types of requirements. 2. Your ping to the server isn't necessarily your connection but rather your distance to the server. If i'm east coast and your west cost and we play against each other I'm going to have even with the best internet in the states an average of 40+ ping more. Playing a fps with some extra ping isn't really that bad simply because the nature of the game. A Fighting game that requires reacting and timing things in the spam of literal frames require precision. having 2 players on separate pings is just a bad idea. 3. The round trip timer on servers is higher than that of p2p. The problem with fighting games is you have to wait for each other or it just does not work. Adding a server to the mix is middle ground that increases time. P2P connect directly to the players and is the preferred method for fighting games because of the reduction in ping between the players. With rollback this connection method is near flawless in its execution. Oh btw this video doesn't really explain rollback well and makes it sound like you have to have extremely strong software to run multiple versions of the game for the predictions to work on rollback. This is false, part of rollback is separating game logic from game rendering which is whats used. It requires a lot less processing than you think is required and with some optimization the switch could absolutely handle it. They don't do it because they can't they don't do it because they won't.
@@bio0link "you make a lot of assumptions" /proceeds to make assumptions about how much processing power is needed to simulate the deterministic gameplay in smash bros even decoupled from the graphics which of course it already is because only a novice wouldn't decouple them/ Also, ping is round trip whether it's P2P or C2S. That doesn't make a difference. The only difference with a server is that the connection is consistent for all players. It would just cost a lot more for Nintendo because in the US for example they'd need at least two sets of servers for west coast and east coast. And yeah, connections across the country would force one person to be connected to a server they have a somewhat less good ping too. But fighting games and smash in particular are not special little snowflakes. A lot of real time competitive games require good pings to work well online. And a lot of them do it very well with a C2S architecture. You could do rollback netcode with C2S as well. You think the precision and timing required to resolve complex interactions in TF2 was any more important than what is required to resolve smash? You're kidding yourself. But C2S worked great for that and it'll work great for this. Frankly, it's the only solution that will work given the hardware. As I'm sure you've realized, the other issue with doing rollback in smash that isn't highlighted in the video is that it won't work for 3+ player games because at that point the game is constantly having to resolve conflicts in 3 or more simulations of the game rather than just 2 which begins to introduce a lot of load to the system that the switch DEFINITELY can't handle. Whereas a C2S model resolves this by handling conflict resolutions at the server instead of the client and each client only has to resolve their own simulation with what hte server says is really happening. Further, you don't have the compounded lag that P2P has as you add more players, rather everybody's ping is their ping to the server. It's a good choice and a good fit for Smash imo. But Nintendo won't do it because we're not mad enough about it.
I played smash online today for the first time ever. And other than it being Sephiroth release day (which was already annoying), it was miserable. It felt like there was no skill involved and every match I was set up to lose. Welp
Aw Poppt didn’t mention the other exploit salty players will use- literally turning off their switch so they don’t lose GSP and the opponent doesn’t gain GSP. There’s almost no real punishment for players that do this- it’s like a minute ban from online. That’s hardly a slap on the wrist! Great video very informative
I don't think the Switch is incapable of handling rollback netcode, considering ARMS uses rollback. Anyway, amazing video, very informative and well paced/edited!
The worst case of bad online that I've experienced is this. I was playing with preferred rules off (idk why) and I matched into some doubles. It was me and a piranha plant against a falco and someone else I can't remember. We ended up winning, but barely. I decided to rematch so we could do a best of three. The only person that rematched was the falco. We matched into more doubles, in which me and the falco were on the same team. And you know what this kid did? He sd'd three times, took my stock, sd'd again, took my other stock, and sd'd once more. This left me with one stock against two people with three each. The opponents were good, so I don't think we would've beat them anyway, but it still hurts. And the worst part is, I can't report him! The only thing I could do is block him, which I did right away. Online sucks
Great video, only think to note is that tourney modes change every 2 days, sl there are 2 days of 4 player free for all and then 2 days of 1v1 items off Omega or Battlefield stages tourneys
The way I assume GSP "randomness" works: The skill level of smash players online resembles a bell curve: there isn't a lot of terrible players, a lot of average players, and a few really good players. But since each person online takes up one "slot" of GSP (or a bit more than 7 million people), the skill difference between people at 10,000 and 20,000 GSP is going to be a lot greater than the difference between people at 3,500,000 and 3,510,000. So, when you play games at very low or very high GSP, your GSP will probably not change that much, since you have only surpassed a relatively small amount of other online players. But, when you win (or lose) a game in the mid-range of GSP, you will have slightly surpassed (or fallen below) a lot more players, since that is where the bell curve is thickest. Then, the other part he describes at 19:20 (again, this is just my guess at how the system works): If you're at 5,000,000 GSP, and you're matched against an opponent at 5,000,001 GSP, then your skill level should be almost exactly the same. If you win, you can expect to gain (as an example) 200,000 GSP. If you lose the match, you can expect to lose the same amount of GSP. However, if you're at 5M GSP and you're matched against an opponent who's at 3M, he should be less skilled player than you, and you won't get as big of a reward for beating him; let's say you'd only gain 100,000 from winning that match. But, if you lose to him, that means that your GSP is too high for your skill level (to the system, at least) and you lose more GSP from it, let's say 700,000. Alternatively, if you have 5M GSP and you're matched against an opponent who's at 7M GSP, you will be rewarded a lot more from winning, and penalized less from losing. This is because you shouldn't really be expected to win against a player that much better than you, but if you do win, Nintendo wants to get your GSP up faster so you can start fighting people closer to your skill level. Let me know other thoughts you have!
Jeremy Maxwell just saying you said 5,000,000 GPS once and I’m not trying to be a dick with this correction but others could be. I think that what you said does help but what about when you play a character for the first time and lose I dunno about 1,000,000GSP and I’m at 5,500,000GSP before the loss but later with the same character (let’s say Pit) gets back to 5,500,000GSP and loses Pit then lost 300,000GSP and each time his opponent had 5,903,200GSP each time. Why would Pit lose more on his first match when his opponents and his own GSP didn’t alter when he played an opponent who had the same GSP when he climbed back up (after 10 matches he got back there)
@@AverageHandle_ Thanks lol I didn't notice that! Just fixed it:) And to answer your question, I think it has to do with a stat called variance. I also play hearthstone, and they made a video explaining why the rating system rewards for their tournaments fluctuated so much; I tried to find the video and link it, but I can't find it unfortunately:( But basically, variance is the measure of how solidified a certain character is in its GSP. When you first start playing online with someone, like Pit, his variance is going to be very high, so a win or loss will change his GSP a lot. Once you play a lot of matches with him, the system has a much better idea of what your skill level with Pit really is, so a few lucky wins won't put you way above what your GSP should really be at with that character. This mechanic allows you to quickly get to a good GSP for you for different characters. Imagine if in every match, no matter your GSP, you gained/lost exactly 100,000. For a really good player, it would take tons of matches against players much worse than you to get up to 6,000,000+ GSP. Or, on the other hand, if you want to try playing a character you're really bad with, and your roster GSP is 7,000,000, it would take 50 or more matches against other good players, probably playing their mains, to get down to a level where you could practice and improve. Instead, your variance with a new character is high enough that you can quickly get to a GSP that reflects your skill level with that character, and then fluctuate less.
Online lag is so bad it's no wonder why some people can never improve beyond mashing, no point in using more brainpower if the two moves can do so much
I just wish we had for glory and for fun back, we have less input delay and we have the sm4sh buffer system back and I secondary banjo so the amount of times I press dtilt get knocked offstage and then do a dair so I lose
Thank you for making this video. As a rosa main I have to explain alot all the time why I don't play online competitively and why I lose so much online. But with this, I can say "watch this video."
I do like playing online because I get to test my skills with real people, I tend to not care about gsp but I sometimes don’t like it going down because I’ll be matched with people who I already know I can beat or just kids who spam with a character that has potential, it really sucks that online isn’t the best because I enjoy it but trying to do combos with my falcon is quite difficult because I know I can do them offline but online just makes it worse.
@@imbatrossthescrub2096 you can, I would be on a 5 game win streak for measly gsp then lose one time and have a ludicrous amount of gsp taken from me. It's the dumbest ranking system I've ever seen
This was a very well made video Poppt1, as a casual player myself it’s nice to understand the nitty gritty details of why my online play feels better sometimes over others. I’m not looking to great, but I agree I’d like a more consistent online play.
The things i HATE the most about each gamemode in ONLINE: QUICKPLAY: you cant change characters for a rematch, and NO TAUNT ONLINE TOURNEY: DLC stages NEVER show up, they are disabled in this mode. Arenas: Waiting in lines.
I've been playing mk11 dealing with nothing but scorpions that literally jump away to the corner to teleport/chain/ spear combo. Incredible rage can come from losing to a very low skill person milking a strategy that only works because of the lag. That being said, it is nothing compared to the rage induced by smash ultimate lag.
@@Nostra_ the online is leagues better than smash. Smash was so bad that after coming back to it recently, I couldn't even get mad. Watching your character air dodge ten seconds after you pressed the button is just funny now. There's nothing elite about it. It's just an elite scam that they charge money for because most of the player base are just young people that will accept it. Mk is quality, what you'll find there are people that play like absolute bitches lol. But atleast you'll get your 2/3 and the lag is a rare occurrence in comparison to smash
I only play online when playing with friends or the small online tournaments friends on discord host. Other than that, I play against LVL9 bots. The only time I played online for any other reasons than these, it was to see what it was like. And I hated it. I constantly got killed because of all the input delay, or because of lag, and occasionally because I was actually shit at the time. And it sucks because I wanna get good by maybe finding people better than me and seeing how I could improve, but I just can’t get used to online play because of how shitty it is. I wish Nintendo will eventually fix up the online stuff. Maybe they can add that in along with the new ARMS character, and show their fans they aren’t completely blind to things that very clearly need to be made better. Tbh, I’d even be fine with them removing online for a bit so they can work on making it better for their fans. But, sadly, my hopes for that are lower than my current GSP for my main.
Oh to be able to even play online with friends. Instead all I got is boring ass and predictable CPUs or QP where projectiles are a nightmare to go against. Or I face Kirby or Little Mac Players that spam up tilt. While I can't do so much as move around even when I'm playing a wifi character because of the delay netcode. I hate players that abuse the online like they're something else. I am starting to just lose it with Smash Ultimate because of online.
Once your GSP drops, it’s never coming back. You gain more points the higher your GSP. And you lose more. When you are a low gsp, you gain less, like a lot less and you lose about the same as you gain.
And what's even crazier is one of the reasons why that happens is because online keeps matching you with people with higher gsp but not elite smash level
Online doesn’t feel friendly to new players. I got my first switch today with smash and tried online just to play with other people but I keep getting matchmaking into one and ones ffs even with preferred setting 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️ Also people are just constant spammers and it’s just such a mood killer ngl trying to just deal with someone cheap. I kinda wish I got Mario Kart 8 instead 😅
1 v 1 tourneys happen in the tourney section every week! The turn out for 1v1 is easily 3-4 times the item tourneys, so they alternate item tourneys/1v1 tourneys twice a week!
I felt this so much. Dude, i am able to land 23 combo with Lucas, i used trainer and worked my way to reach that, i know it's not amazing and I'm sure there's other better records. But when i go online, I'll be lucky is i land two 😭
they could just make a server in which both people connect to, (same thing that fortnite, warzone and other big online games do) , and have it so if their connection speed sucks, they lose out and lag, and the other person wont, they will see the lag but it wont affect them, this way if both players do have a good connection, they will have the same input delay, regardless if one person lags or not
Why does everyone hate Smash Ultimate online? Hmm..let's see. We deal with: 1. Some of the worst netcode in gaming history 2. Fighting the most cancerous players 3. Getting no fulfillment from getting characters into Elite Smash 4. Dealing with abysmal lag 5. Losing over a couple hundred thousand GSP from losing *ONE* match 6. Gaining next to nothing in terms of GSP 7. Online Zelda 8. Online Sonic 9. Online Banjo and Kazooie 10. Online Joker 11. Online Rob 12. Online Cloud 13. Online Villager/Isabelle 14. Online Samus/Dark Samus 15. Battle Arenas, where people literally kick you out because they're salty sore losers 16. Having a Tournament mode that was good when it first came out, but now sucks because of the two stock rule 17. A horrible Preferred Rule system that doesn't work half the time 18. People who T-bag you when you accidentally SD 19. People who forfeit the game because they made a mistake 20. People who leave after one match in Elite Smash/Quickplay 21. The inability to change your character after a match in Elite Smash/Quickplay 22. The inability to choose a stage before and after a match in Elite Smash 23. The abundance of sword characters 24. Unintentional buffering 25. Input consumption Does that answer your question?
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
The big thing I didn't know was how exactly online changes a characters placement on a tier list. You explained that aspect really well instead of just saying "projectile characters become better with no explanation". This is incredibly well-done video.
Thats the history of how my little edgy forkfighter is the worst character in the game . ( meta knight :v )
DARKAR 045 he’s definitely not the worst.
@@aabfnrjkfnvrofnfnrpldcbrko9027 in online he is one of the worst . Offline is pretty good in my opinión :V
DARKAR 045 Definitely Not *the* worst though. That’s gotta go to a combo heavy character like Ken, Falcon, Ryu or someone
@@aabfnrjkfnvrofnfnrpldcbrko9027 Ken and Ryu have attacks that are fairly strong on there own and canceling inputs is not very difficult if you are fighting someone with a decent connection.
In other fighting games, blaming the lag for your loss is considered to be a noob thing.
In Ultimate, however, it is just the standard.
To be fair ANY other fighting games online looks playable compared to the shit scamco/Nintendo shat out here.
@@zwartesoep2010 not if you're on WiFi
@@dazeen9591 I play FighterZ and sfv on wifi sometime's when I don't feel like moving. With the ability to see your opponents connection, it's a lot better than what smash offers. (you could probably argue against sfv though for sure)
Smash isnt a fighter lmao
@@CamFGC Yeah I would because SFV for me was completely unplayable to the point where I was waiting 30 minutes to play one match which ended up having like at least 3 seconds of delay
I don't hate smash bros online, smash bros online hates me.
More like smash online hates everyone
same bruh
In Soviet Russia * insert comment here *
I play mk online . I dont think you know what its that feeling . And im glad you dont
Well you can't say it hates you until you get sonic twice in a row.
Please drop a like and subscribe if you guys want to see more in depth content, it's so sexy when you subscribe and hit the bell 😍
your profile picture is much sexier
I have been subbed since 13k subs😇
Idk when I subbed but it has been a while, great vids, great content keep up the good work 👍
Poppt1 tf🤨
hmmmm, profile picture of poppt1 : Roud and yellow, ask to hit the bell... PAC MAAAAAN XD sorry I am out I promise XD
More issues with online:
- You get penalized for just playing for fun without worrying about GSP, because then your low GSP tends to match you with people with bad internet.
- Arena isn't a great alternative because of waiting queues, and bad logistics around spectating vs queuing to play.
- The tournament mode is mostly free for alls.
- If the opponent disconnects AFTER hitting the blast zone on their final stock, no GSP for you. Having myself disconnected (unintentionally due to internet issues), the quitter loses GSP BUT the game doesn't tell you, so it fails as a deterrent and only the player who did nothing wrong feels punished.
- Game: "Rematch?" Me: "No, because they just spammed lame moves that abuse lag." Game: "Lol so your next opponent will be the person you just declined."
- Switch's wifi adapter is weak and you can't expect most other players to have bought a third party ethernet adapter.
- Input buffering combined with the inconsistent lag can lead to all sorts of accidental actions, which can be really bad due to the platforming part of smash.
- Occasionally rules that you didn't agree to pop up. Rather than each player selects one very specific ruleset, and the game aims for "close enough", why not let players select a range of acceptable rules (I don't really care if it's 4 mins or 7 mins, and I actually like all stages if it isn't forced on unwilling opponents), but never match outside of what you agree to (final smash meter can die in a fire)
- In quickplay, what if you could select between a casual and competitive mode, but either way it uses GSP to match to a similarly skilled opponent? You only match against opponents using the same mode, and GSP only changes in competitive mode. If you happen to hit elite smash or if the opponent requests it, you can switch from competitive to casual mode so you can keep playing.
Some of these things could be pretty easily fixed by software updates if Nintendo wanted to...
I get number five on your list alot, like these people look up your system and rematch you instantly...
I stopped online completely. It's utterly garbage. I can't tell you how many times dash attacks come out as forward smash and just make me lose games.. No point wasting time on that trash when the timing is so different offline
Yep. I want to love this game so much. Been waiting for Ridley and K. Rool for 15 years and now they're finally here and the game just... sucks. Terrible single player. Terrible buffer lag. The worst online experience of all time. Massive disappointment and I don't expect Nintendo to ever change. They just don't care. I actually think they're proud of their awful online service.
I get 1, 3, 5 and 6 a lot. It's annoying.
And my god, how are we still not able to switch characters in quick play yet? And I don't get why gsp is locked to every character in the game? Makes me conscious as hell, there's still some characters I haven't used yet as a result.
@@Sol_Calibre at this point i think time practicing offline with a bot has more value than trying to use online.
No point practicing when the timing is absolutely shit online
Great video! As a game programmer myself I would like to give some technical insight on the implementation of a rollback system. A rollback system does not require multiple instances of the game to exist. You do not need to render the character's model's twice or the stage twice. What you need is a list of user inputs and character states. Using this list you can recalculate where the character should be. This isn't as expensive as it might sound.
Also I don't think I quite agree with "It's already impressive that it can run on the Switch in the first place". This depends heavily on the stage but smash is actually a great example of something you can run with very high fidelity but with high performance.
For example let's compare it with Zelda botw. The amount of models and terrain is many times higher than that of smash. The reason they perform well is because of the smart usage of LOD, terrain optimization, and many other optimization techniques used. There are many objects constantly moving around that are rigged and interacting with light in complicated ways.
Smash is great because most of the scene is 2.5D and is static. This means a lot of the lighting can be baked easily and be made extremely cheap to calculate. It's opportune for many optimizations. (Some stages do require dynamic lighting tho, which can be significantly more heavy to run)
There are many possible reasons why Nintendo didn't implement a rollback system. But as someone who implemented low-level sockets I can guarantee you that it is possible to implement in smash on the switch. And the switch is definitely capable of running it.
EDIT: As this now has been pinned I figured it would make sense to give some further light onto technical aspects involved in a rollback system. If you're interested to know more about it I recommend to give an article on gamasutra called "Rollback Networking in INVERSUS" a read.
EDIT EDIT: Seems like the edit broke the pin. Welp
Similar but unrelated. Can I just take a moment to ask, why the fk does my Z button sometimes come out as a jab instead of grab or a neutral air instead of a Zair?! Like for real, that shit pisses me off. This issue has existed in smash for multiple entries now, it's not a controller issue, has to be some kind of programming issue. I get that C stick inputs are recognized as a macro for direction + A button input, but Z is a completely different button with a different purpose. It's not like I press B input and an A input comes out. Hell sometimes I go to grab input and my shield comes out.... Like for real.... WHY?!
@@EVLG programmers call it a bug....
Considering that MK 11 uses rollback netcode it really should be possible for it to be implemented in smash
@@EVLG Z is actually Shield + A 1 frame apart.
The actual reason why they chose against rollback is probably the SDI mechanic, I'd say. Unlike regular fighting games where most inputs don't matter both for comboing and getting comboed, it's only true for the former in Smash. So even if followup hits had connected the Game still needs to recalculate your position for every Input of SDI, which I'd imagine would be rather janky.
I think rollback is still the far better choice regardless though, because I'd rather have a good SDIer teleport out of my Combo sometimes than Stop&Go Gameplay.
Loving these technical and educational videos!
Deadass
Player: Hey game i bought you a Ethernet adapter so how about you input my shield
Game: Nah i don't feel like it
i will never buy an ethernet adapter, i rather not play smash ever again, the fact that the system doesn't have an ethernet adapter in the dock is insulting
@Frenzied Unicorn Productions i mean in other companies have games outside of shooters and racing games.
i mean i take that you like platformers but with the indie companies producing exciting and better platformers than vanilla kirby mario or yoshi crafted world, whats the reason? tropical freeze is their best platformer but even that has alternatives like yooka layle impossible layer
@@buffkangaroodog i haven't given up on it, since its my go to to play independent games, and snes online is pretty good plus i play a lot of mario maker, but i think once my online membership expires ill be done, if i want to play snes ill just get an emulator and i can play mario maker one on the wiiu
I literally expierence no input lag with an adapter
@@Prillbarky it's still a chore to play. I play falcon and it's awful
So everyone is talking about MKLeo losing
Me: MKLeo was carried by offline
Wow! Definitely first time I’ve heard that joke
Hmmmm... I think I've heard this before.... Maybe on....
ZeRo's Meme review!
I guess everyone likes to keep up with the smash memes...
And yes everyone, this is from Zero's meme video (in case you didn't understand where I was getting the meme from). All credit goes to the creator of the meme and Zero.
I don't really care when people steal jokes, just wanted to point it out lol
Such a shame too, this should have been the game to propel their paid online service. Nintendo just doesn't know what online multiplayer really is.
"Nintendo just doesn't know what online multiplayer really is."
Then how the heck did the first Splatoon game win best multiplayer at the game awards in 2015 anyway?
@@koishiwii8370 splatoon is the only nintendo game ever (on the switch) to have good online
Luigi Mansion 3: AM I A JOKE TO YOU!!??
@@mannb1023 It’s still not perfect. Brellas sometimes get shot while holding the brella up infront of someone due to regional differences. The game doesn’t count a match in quad league battle if everyone disconnects, the game has multiple very inconsistent ranking systems. You can win and get 10 points, then lose and lose 50 points
I think they do, they just too focused getting money from making DLCs and Mii skins. Online should be free cuz performance ain't even worth a dime.
21:12 Poppt1: "You have this randomly large number"
Me: Has 4 GSP
Mines 134,000! Get on my level nerd
@@1308lee Who are you? Jesus?
@@1308lee is that suppose to be a flex?
@harry stuff im pretty sure thats the joke, he is bragging about a low gsp. (If its not im sorry)
My secondary (Lucina) is at 78,000 , my main Bowser is at 2.3 mil, and for whatever reason, my meme character, which I don't play and use the dumb options with, the 3rd worst character King K Rool, is about 1 million away from elite smash
When you said "lose to a player you normally would beat" I felt that
same here
Same here
Same especially aginst a laggy samus
This attack is about to hit me! Better press Shield!
Online: What Shield? 🤷♂️
I'm about to dash grab this guy.
Online: Oh you moved just now?
@@kush7138 This dude really charging a Smash Attack from a foot away from me? Easy Counter.
Online: You suck, you didn't input anything, you're a loser, give me 500,000 GSP
Shield who???
@@nonplayercharacter12333 lmfao
How about this one during FFA or Doubles:
Me: okay I just dodged that final smash and my opponent got into it, I'm safe.
Online: oh you think so? This animation is quite long. Looks like you shouldn't had dodged off the stage good buddy. Now lose that stock and take you L having ass home.
So many Bowser plays love this. I swear there have been so many times where I saw Bowsers FSMASH or side B coming from a mile away, yet even though I'm pretty sure I've hit the button's fast enough to shield or dodge, I get hit or grabbed anyway.
I just hate ranking system in smash, it really discourages me to play my main in online. I'm always worried that a million GSP is gonna taken away from me.
Gsp doesnt determine skill join arenas avoids losing gsp and less lag
@@justscrollingby8384 but it determines if your opponent is going to be a laggy ness rolling and spamming b moves. And arenas are garbage because of the 10-20 minute wait (depending on how many players). Good players usually are in arenas with 5-7 players.
Honestly I feel the same. I play Ganondorf and he is by far I think the worst character to play online if not second worst
Me stuck at 9.7mil who barely gains 1k gsp and loses literally nothing: ...........
Same
Best video on this topic I've seen 👍
Hello Peter kkkkkkka netter
didn't expect to see you here peter
Oh hey
No
"you know, they make it really easy to forget you're paying for this service" - alpharad
Everyone: Smash online is so bad please fix
Me, wondering why I’m watching all these videos about Nintendo online when I dont even have a switch
Exactly😂😂😂
Teapot 9355 what are you doing here?
Don’t worry you aren’t missing something lol
-spare yourself
Me too
Forgot the part where after paying for online services, You have to go and manually cancel renew subscription every time.
Them triple ay companies, always trying to scam the money outta your pockets
Every company fucking shit heads does this
Money hungry, they turning into Activision COD where you have to pay to play. Pay more to win 🤢
Everyone: "Smash ultimate's netcode is probably the worst netcode in a fighting game ever
Street fighter v netcode: Finally a worthy opponent, our battle will be legendary
Xenoverse 2 netcode
sfv netcode is good by comparison. unless you limit yourself to playing close or good connections delay will always suck more than sfv, especially since they made the netcode far better now. hardly ever get any bad matches and even the bad ones are better than most of smash ultimates
I think that the worst netcode is the Mario Maker one (Althought is not a fighting game)
Funny how the biggest fighting games have some of the worst netcode
Another Brazilian Ken is coming your way
Didn't really notice this as much before. I play almost only online due to most friends not having an interest in smash. Played offline yesterday with a buddy and I do believe I'll not go back to online play. The difference was immeasurable. It's a completely different game!
Facts. Oh to be able to play offline with others
No one ever mentions the stacking timed bans due to disconnections every match is a dice roll between a perfectly fine game, a laggy game or a disconnect warning/banned. Why must I be punished for the their shitty online?
That you also have to pay for now, might I add.
I'm watching this video because I was banned
Word so when i face a laggy opponent, i just SD myself as quickly as possible to avoid the ban bc Nintendo will punish me even though the communication error is the other person's fault.
Laggers exploit the lag too so i ain't fighting with my hands tied to my back, I'm out.
I got banned because 3 opponents disconnected when they were about to lose. The stupidity of the online game is absurd.
Why must you be punished? For trying to play online and giving a crap about Smash Ultimate instead of their single-player games.
I think you were the first out of about 20 youtubers that I saw that actually went into detail on what makes characters better on wi-fi. Also, what I’ve noticed is that you usually get way more GSP when you play a character you have just started playing online, or haven’t played for a while. Also if your in extremely low GSP (I’m talking like 130k GSP) and you win/lose, your GSP will go almost nowhere.
I have a feeling it's very affected by your w/l ratio at a certain GSP level. Like I've been trying to get Terry into Elite and I've been sitting in the 6.6~6.8 mil range for awhile. I lost like six straight matches (yay lag and trying to hit combos against projectile characters!) and ended up around 5.5 mil. I won a few times but not as many as I had just lost, got back to about 6.7 mil, then won four more straight matches in that GSP range, mostly against those ranked higher than me, and only made it to just over 6.9mil. My w/l below 6 mil is very high, but my w/l in the 6.6-6.8 is probably about 50% at this point.
What's really weird is I'll beat a 6.9mil person and get like 20k GSP, then get matched with a 5.7mil person and gain 80k, even when I'm sitting at 6.6. Infuriating.
DriveByWire you could be right as well. All we know is that the GSP system is wack.
DriveByWire that could explain why you get more when you first started playing a character, your win ratio is 100%
Senior Shrek yea ur only gonna sky rocket when ur at a very common/ the average gsp
DriveByWire same experience. I got elite smash twice. And lost 1st match both times in elite smash and got kicked out lol. And since then I’ve gone back and forth from 6.6-6.9 mil. And when lag of opponents is bad I drop to 6 mil or less when I loose a few in a row. Online sucks
FINALLY someone explains why the netcode is bad and also why it probably won't be fixed. Thanks for the video, very informative
It could be fixed if they changed the netcode with a major software update. Nintendo has the money to do it they just choose not to because they dont give a fuck
@@hatchell18 It's more like the dev team doesn't know how to implement rollback. They don't know anyone that knows how to implement rollback. It's not Nintendo. It's more like Sakurai and the dev team. Other games play just fine. Not that I'm a Nintendo fan, but I'm so tired of people blaming Nintendo. Although they do use crappy servers. But it's not all on Nintendo.
Mostly the lag.
Yeah the lag.
I remember in smash 4 where the lag was so bad that is just mercy kill myself than sit through another 5 minutes of lag aka get banned.
Also cheap teams like dual Belmont 's and k rool and ridley.
Whats so bad about K. Ridley?
@@godlyness3780 I'm guessing they're talking about K. Rool down throw+Ridley's Skewer
I try to use slower Ariel players like mewtwo because he’s so much fun to use when there isn’t lag. But when there is, it’s a fucking pain because you know how good this guy can be when you pull off his combos. I’ve actually given up playing online for a couple of months now.
Having delay makes combos harder
@@godlyness3780 Heh, K. Ridley
Dying to the stupidest action choices when you would murder them offline: really hit home
20:21 "You need to back out completely, switch characters, and fine a completely new opponent.
*not if it's in Australia*
Jared Ekey why not? Lol
@@thwype9725 Because there are only 2 players online at a time in Australia 🤣
Jared Ekey wdym? Like Australia online is inactive due to so little people playing online?
Or Canada lol
@@thwype9725 yes
Me: Trying to do Link bomb tech combos and setups
WiFi Heavy: F SMASH, SPOT DODGE, DOWN SMASH
Pretty ironic that SSBM's fan made online mode Slippi has less input lag than Ultimate offline, let alone online.
Honestly, thank you so much for this video. I was going blind with rage returning to online after a 5 month break, getting frustrated at a lot of the stuff you pointed out in this video, but seeing it all broken down, understanding why these things were happening and that I am far from alone genuinely helped me to get in a better mindset about playing online.
Whereas I was taking it far too seriously before, thinking that I had completely lost my game and was just utter trash now, I can now understand the difference between what is my own limitation and what is just online jank. I was seriously in a massive funk before watching this and now I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Thank you once again.
Update: it didn't help. Smash online is too garbage to bother with any more. So I just don't play it. Fuck Nintendo.
I lose online and I start to lose my confidence and everything. I start feeling like I can't even beat my cousins. Even though they literally press one button in a pattern. Being the worst at online and losing games just make me feel like trash even if I know I can beat them offline. Online destroys me for the rest of the day.
8:22 There's no servers in most fighting games out there. The game directly connects both consoles, doing a Peer-to-peer connection. The same thing happens for 4-player games, when one player will be the host, and when the 3 other players will connect to it.
8:52 That's a complete lie. MK11, Skullgirls, Lethal League and other games on Switch, all have Rollback netcode. It has nothing to do with the actual Switch hardware. It's all about the game.
The rest are bullshit claims as well. The only thing a game need to have a functional Rollback netcode, is to implement savestates. When you can go back and forth to a previous state of the game. This is what Rollback netcode uses to resimulate a situation, when the prediction isn't the same as what really happened. Emulators allow anybody to have savestate on tons of game. Even Brawl. So, theoretically, even P+ could have Rollback Netcode, if savestates can be implemented within Brawl.
The savestates and rollbacks are actually working on the actual inputs, taken by the game. As long as the game is deterministic, meaning that the same inputs and pre-conditions will result in the same exact game being displayed (how in-game replay works), a game can have savestate, and can have Rollback netcode.
Finally someone that knows what they're talking about. Which is funny because smash has a replay function
pls vote Chaf Cancel 's comment up!
Whoever is reading through this comment thread, please put this thread at the top by liking the main comment.
Yeah, I was also a bit perplexed when he said the Switch wasn't capable of implementing rollback. Even KI has a simple way of rollback by just using the same inputs that the player did a few frames ago. It's not the Switch's lack of power, it's the negligence of Nintendo and Bamco that is preventing this from happening.
I'm a +1 at being annoyed by his statement, too.
The game isn't all the polygons and textures and crap they paint over the game, it's a collection of simple rectangular, triangular and circular bounding boxes. Proper rollbacking just needs a few KB of RAM free to save a few object positions and action states.
The developers just simply don't care about this aspect of the game. Nintendon't care. Have another palette swap of Marth instead of a cool pegasus knight, we know you luv them so.
You know what's funny? Rollback netcode was implemented in ARMS before Smash Ultimate. Nintendo at their finest
When my friends ask me how to improve, I have a lot of advice. But I always end it with 'oh and stop playing online so much. You'll just reinforce a lot of bad habits and you'll lose irl when you fall back into what works for you online.'
I wish I could play offline.
@@TsukumoYatsuhashi Oh to play offline even in a state like Arkansas.
Reasons why people hate Smash Online:
Number 1) Sonic
Thanks for watching
Understandable have a nice day
Number 2) PK fire
2) Ness
@@Wenzelelele i disagree
@@16ktsgamma no
The unholy trinity of the buffering system, being the laggiest smash game offline and the online being so shit made me quit Ultimate in 2 weeks. It was so bad that I didn't even buy the fighter's pass and I haven't touched the game since January 2019.
It's crazy because I don't blame you like Armada said, smash ultimate has potential to be one of the greatest Smash games of all time but it is one of the most depressing Smash games of all time because you're just watching all its potential go away, like watching Gohan become nobody after the Cell Games
You made a good decision.
Buying a switch just for this game and then finding out the online in smash 4 was somehow better is why I have trust issues
Wait, how is the game laggy offline?
@@smashmaster521 It's the laggiest in terms of when an input is inputted it takes the most frames for that input to appear on screen offline compared to other smash games.
There are so many things about the online that you didn't even mention like: Not being able to queue up for games with a friend for doubles anymore, the fact that you have no idea what rules you are going to get - even in Elite smash (I have lost so many games because it's set to 3 minutes, items are on, smash meter is on, stage hazards are on, etc.), the fact that who's rules it goes with is completely random so you can get your opponent's rules 10 times in a row, the fact that you could have a massive damage lead on your opponent but because you have the same number of stocks left it goes to sudden death, not being able to veto maps, there not being a ranked/unranked option, there not being a desired connection option, etc.
DCing is another thing. Why do you get a temp ban if you leave a game? If you know you are going to lose then you shouldn't be punished by leaving. It should benefit both people. You get a loss and your opponent gets a win, but you don't have to wait around to lose. And if the game is stupid enough for the winner to not get any points if the loser DCs then obviously this is something that should have been fixed a long time ago.
Also, what is the point of adding someone you played against to your friends list? You can't send them messages and you can't invite them to games. So what is the point? Why do we have to pay for this?
And the rules don't swap equally between players. You can play with the same person online, with their rule for 3-4 matches straight.
As a casual player it was really helpful how you explained each topic in detail. Subbed.
Oh he spittin'
He spittin'
If you want to test your temper and check how loud you can swear, play Smash online 🍻
me: **gets a grab at 0 as luigi**
Smash: so what if i said * T W O S E C O N D D E L A Y*
My favorite is any time me or my opponent is offstage and just drifts to death because of multiple eaten inputs.
I recently got one character on Elite Smash by accident and I can say that, in the 4 years I have been playing this game, more often online than offline there are moments that you clearly know what is comming but you feel sluggish, like there is a ball and chain on you. And many can say it is "skill issue" and be unecessarily toxic about it, but truth is, as much as I love Nintendo, when it comes to online gaming is *very* outdated.
Why everyone hates smash online...
This guy: makes 22 minutes video
Me: it sucks ass
bro same, i only clicked because i couldnt believe someone spent 20 minutes talkin about how smash netcode sucks. figured there was something i didnt already know about smash online sucking. nope. still just sucks lol
Adding also: *the sensitivity of inputs, the c-stick shenanigans, and the buffer system.*
*Sensitivity:* Ultimate is insanely responsive in that it only takes the slightest of control stick movements to turn around, input a direction, etc. This is fine offline as you can learn the timings, but due to the jitter online you will turn around before you attack, recover the wrong way, input the wrong move, drift too far when trying to sweetspot the ledge, etc. This is because the jitter (aka lag spikes) make it harder to time stuff on reaction, but also because two inputs that were on the same frame offline can be pushed to more than a frame apart by lag spikes. So an input for Sheik to down-b and immediate fade back can become a grenade (side-b) input.
*C-stick shenanigans:* You have to return the c-stick to the dead center in order to use it again. This is also annoying offline, but online your center input is often eaten or you simply mistime it due to jitter.
*Buffer:* It makes you do crazy stuff sometimes. Offline you can learn to play around it with good timing, but online its just going to do its thing. Also that extra 6 frames of online lag makes it impossible to know whether you've been hit by an attack. If you try to shield an incoming attack you might find yourself airdodging offstage.
Idk how the netcode works, so the thing about inputs on the same frame being pushed apart is just a theory. I could just be bad lol
I would love to have a statistic in the game of how many times I died to buffered air dodge.
@@tobyvision Same but for me accidentally turning around before attacking/grabbing
Also online makes some characters literally impossible to play at a proficient level. When the last time you saw an online rosalina and luma ? Chances are you haven't she's the 4tg least played character online. This is because she's an extremely technical character. Most of her inputs need to be performed within 2 frames or less and online it's through luck that she likes it off or it's exponentially harder to do than offline. I'm good offline with Rosa but online she's terrible
totally agree , same for me. combos i do offline NEVER come out correctly online. reaction timing is thrown way off. its ridiculous
Your forgetting one thing, happened to me a couple days ago actually so thought I’d share. If your opponent leaves the match, even if he’s on his last stock and the death animation plays you don’t get the gsp. I was furious at this and was hoping you’d point that out
If we look at other games such as intense fighting games with need for frame perfect reactions (ex dragonball fighters, the online is built to accompany that with little input delay and at least telling you how much frames of delay you have). Smash ultimate online doesnt even say how delayed you are, which makes it much harder to adapt to the online situation.
I played a lot of online matches that when it lags I don't even notice it, I just keep playing. But when I played with my cousin in offline who always beat me back then, suddenly lost to me. I was playing so good, but when I played online again I found myself playing slow.
That was a really solid, thorough explanation of the competitive community's grievances with the online system. Shame it's probably going to stay in that state (for the reasons you mentioned) but the video, at least, was entertaining.
Everyone: "Ultimate Online is bad"
Sakurai: "Don't make me come down there you punks"
You really deserve way more subs, one of the easiest to understand videos on the topic out there. Keep up the good work :)
Hot take: Originally, the game designers wanted to make a non competitive fighting game and since that day, they kept trying to remove the competition. So adding lag makes it so great players cannot make fast high level decisions as accurately as possible, flattening the skill curve
It really, really seems like the 6 frame lag offline was intended to be used as time they could sacrifice online to make the experiences feel the same, but they DIDN'T. It's so, so weird.
Yeah Nintendo always seems to target Smash to the casual players which is just a shame since Smash is supposed to be a game that targets both the casual and pro players and yet they don’t care about the pros because it’s Nintendo :(
and by adding lag they discourage both
I was trying to play online last night with a friend of mine that lives 10 minutes away and there was a second and a half delay in half the matches.
I’m actually REALLY glad you made this video. I felt like it was only me that was horrible at fighting spammers.
So I’ve recently (midway thru last year) decided to pick up this game after getting a switch because I used to love playing melee growing up and seen videos of ultimate on RUclips that made me obsessed with it and wanna get good at it. Since then I’ve attended a couple local tourneys in which I’ve done horribly at. Which is ok. But the issue I seem to be running into is that no matter how good I get at smash thru online practice I’m still no good at locals offline, and on top of that I keep trying to get into elite smash (and get very close) but lose a match and then lose another and then it all goes down hill. And with no close friends who play this game I haven’t really been able to practice it in it’s true combo offline form. So it’s super hard to gauge wether or not I’m actually getting better at the game at all. When it seems like absolute idiots can get elite smash by doing the most stupid options and I (an intellectual) am unable. This video has confirmed a lot of things I been feeling bout the game recently and was very helpful in my own understanding of how it all works and y I’m not succeeding (apart from my own learning process and genuinely losing to better players) thanks pop n lock it
If you really want to get better, practice on training mode and against cpu with your character, and against other players your best bet is finding a discord server or something where you can get arena matches with people that are close to you and have a good connection. It's not ideal, you're still going to have to deal with minimum online delay at best, but it's better than quickplay.
@@AlquimistEd Even playing against the CPU is kinda dubious for getting better because you get used to fighting opponents with very little (read: no) understanding of the depth of any situation. You get used to doing combos in a certain way, but the CPU doesn't DI correctly or use available options well so certain things that you ingrain into muscle memory don't work when you go against a real opponent. It still helps, but it can really build some bad habits.
The only way to get better in a way that will really transition into offline competitive gameplay is to play locals, which is unfortunately not an option right now. Training mode is nice too, although I wish you could program DI and hit a button to reset both characters to an exact position and damage %.
At the end of the day, the competitive scene in these games will always be an afterthought for Nintendo as they prove over and over through their inaction at extremely obvious problems that the community are vocal about.
@@tongpoo8985 It all depends on skill level, you *can* improve by playing vs cpus especially if you're a low/low-mid level player, if anything it's at least good to practice reactions and punishes.
@@AlquimistEd Yeah most definitely, I'm more talking about players who are already good enough to not get stomped at locals
it's either locals or online, you can't train your brain for both, online has lag and ur brain adapts to that, if u almost reach elite u r pretty good. the intellectual approach will give u the upper hand in the end, but i think you know yourself that that won't be enough to get into elite, unleash your inner DDD : )))
I feel so relieved watching this. There was always a feeling that the same match offline would shake out different. Seeing that there's an obvious change in the way you have to play online is really cathartic and brings an explanation I knew was there but didn't know how to explain.
Yes. I feel like i dont suck anymore after watching this.
Really liked this video, I'm a living example of how this is real. I'm an elite smash joker, and after getting pretty good online. I tried going to an offline tournament, and barely got past the first 50% of players. I've noticed that I have a lot to learn about offline play vs online play. Unfortunately, I only got to play in two offline tournaments before the whole pandemic. Thanks for the information, this is a really good video!
One of ness’ only weakness online is his up b recovery. If there is a lag spike at any point while he’s using up b, ness will most likely miss himself and die
I thought I clicked on the wrong youtuber
I've only ever played one online game of Smash in Ultimate. The entire time my framerate hovered around 10 fps, and it was enough to make me feel sick after a few short minutes (no ethernet, but I have very good internet speeds and almost never get motion sickness from games). On top of that, the player that won the match was constantly teabagging every time they stunned or ko'd another player. That one small interaction was enough for me to decide I never wanted to bother again.
The completionist in me is forever sad though that I will have to stare at that blank "Online" challenges page until I die.
13:45 “Precise and exciting combos” *shows mii brawler and byleth*
mii brawler has some decent combos...byleth not so much
JackPauler4Lyfe it was a tier list And all those characters were put in bottom tier. It wasn’t a big brain combo section. It was a bad characters section
kieranhunter
What? Byleth has some great combos, they’re just not easy to pull off.
@@eddiemate oh sure but they're like 3 or four hits max that do ridiculous amounts of damage. Which dont get me wrong are hype. But they're not brawler fighter style combos.
kieranhunter
Ah, that’s what you meant. Yeah, that’s fair enough.
Even more frustrating for other games that use input delay and not use Rollback Netcode is that Rollback Netcode has been out for almost 13 years now
Reminder that spectators also add extra lag on top of that lag between players :)
this gets even worse when there are more than one spectators. Its so bad many players playing online tournaments request to NOT be on stream so that they dont have to deal with spectator lag
Spectators add lag? Didn't know that
Also Input Buffering in ultimate is ridiculous. The hold input buffer + input delay + lag = doooom.
I understand rollback netcode is almost definitely outside of the switch's performance point for 3+ players. But surely it's possible for 1v1 without sacrificing too much visually.
Another option is they could take our Nintendo Online money and host actual dedicated servers and switch from a P2P delay mode to C2S. C2S would at least stabilize your ping match to match and make the authoritative voice on what happens the server instead of each client having to wait for each other.
IMO C2S is probably the best solution and makes the most sense given we're paying them for the service.
The problem with servers and fighting games are it puts one player at a disadvantage. If I have a ping of 70 to a server and the other guy has a ping of 10 then I'm at such a massive disadvantage that the game just isn't worth playing. If they add tech to sync the players input delay then input delay then whats the point of servers to begin with.
I agree with this.. however, there was a time when Nintendo was OFFERED dedicated servers in order to run their services significantly better.. but ultimately declined. Why? Because Nintendo is a cheapskate company and only want the cheapest possible outcome. Which is why they don't put many square reps because of the copyright and money that square asks for the character to be in. It's not just a simple question of, "ummm yes square I will need cloud and Tifa in smash... Oh? Umm they're quite a hefty price. I think we'll just take cloud." Nintendo has always been this way and I doubt they will try to make a change for the masses.
@@bio0link No matter what connection architecture you use, you're putting one player at an advantage based on their connection. With a strict lock step p2p system, the person with the worse internet is usually at the advantage since they are used to playing their games with 10 frame delays on everything. I'd argue the advantage difference between two slightly different but still sub 100ms pings to a server is not that great. Anything over 100ms and you kinda shouldn't be playing online competitive games.
FPS games have always used a C2S system and yeah, people with over 150ms pings can experience weird things like getting shot when they think they are behind cover. But it's not too big of a deal and at the end of the day, you know your internet is a mess and have to accept the whompings that come from it.
@@ZombieApocalypse09 Your taking such a leap of logic with your first points its unbelievable. "they are used to it" Mhh no but even if we agree here, at least physically they are on equal lvls which is important.
The problem with servers and your FPS comparison are.
1. 2 different types of games with 2 different types of requirements.
2. Your ping to the server isn't necessarily your connection but rather your distance to the server. If i'm east coast and your west cost and we play against each other I'm going to have even with the best internet in the states an average of 40+ ping more. Playing a fps with some extra ping isn't really that bad simply because the nature of the game. A Fighting game that requires reacting and timing things in the spam of literal frames require precision. having 2 players on separate pings is just a bad idea.
3. The round trip timer on servers is higher than that of p2p. The problem with fighting games is you have to wait for each other or it just does not work. Adding a server to the mix is middle ground that increases time. P2P connect directly to the players and is the preferred method for fighting games because of the reduction in ping between the players. With rollback this connection method is near flawless in its execution.
Oh btw this video doesn't really explain rollback well and makes it sound like you have to have extremely strong software to run multiple versions of the game for the predictions to work on rollback. This is false, part of rollback is separating game logic from game rendering which is whats used. It requires a lot less processing than you think is required and with some optimization the switch could absolutely handle it. They don't do it because they can't they don't do it because they won't.
@@bio0link "you make a lot of assumptions" /proceeds to make assumptions about how much processing power is needed to simulate the deterministic gameplay in smash bros even decoupled from the graphics which of course it already is because only a novice wouldn't decouple them/
Also, ping is round trip whether it's P2P or C2S. That doesn't make a difference. The only difference with a server is that the connection is consistent for all players. It would just cost a lot more for Nintendo because in the US for example they'd need at least two sets of servers for west coast and east coast. And yeah, connections across the country would force one person to be connected to a server they have a somewhat less good ping too.
But fighting games and smash in particular are not special little snowflakes. A lot of real time competitive games require good pings to work well online. And a lot of them do it very well with a C2S architecture. You could do rollback netcode with C2S as well. You think the precision and timing required to resolve complex interactions in TF2 was any more important than what is required to resolve smash? You're kidding yourself. But C2S worked great for that and it'll work great for this. Frankly, it's the only solution that will work given the hardware.
As I'm sure you've realized, the other issue with doing rollback in smash that isn't highlighted in the video is that it won't work for 3+ player games because at that point the game is constantly having to resolve conflicts in 3 or more simulations of the game rather than just 2 which begins to introduce a lot of load to the system that the switch DEFINITELY can't handle. Whereas a C2S model resolves this by handling conflict resolutions at the server instead of the client and each client only has to resolve their own simulation with what hte server says is really happening. Further, you don't have the compounded lag that P2P has as you add more players, rather everybody's ping is their ping to the server.
It's a good choice and a good fit for Smash imo. But Nintendo won't do it because we're not mad enough about it.
Yay now I have even more Johns to say when I lose in online!
I played smash online today for the first time ever. And other than it being Sephiroth release day (which was already annoying), it was miserable. It felt like there was no skill involved and every match I was set up to lose. Welp
Aw Poppt didn’t mention the other exploit salty players will use- literally turning off their switch so they don’t lose GSP and the opponent doesn’t gain GSP. There’s almost no real punishment for players that do this- it’s like a minute ban from online. That’s hardly a slap on the wrist! Great video very informative
It sucks for those that face it. It should not happen. That's how bad online is.
I don't think the Switch is incapable of handling rollback netcode, considering ARMS uses rollback.
Anyway, amazing video, very informative and well paced/edited!
The worst case of bad online that I've experienced is this. I was playing with preferred rules off (idk why) and I matched into some doubles. It was me and a piranha plant against a falco and someone else I can't remember. We ended up winning, but barely. I decided to rematch so we could do a best of three. The only person that rematched was the falco. We matched into more doubles, in which me and the falco were on the same team. And you know what this kid did? He sd'd three times, took my stock, sd'd again, took my other stock, and sd'd once more. This left me with one stock against two people with three each. The opponents were good, so I don't think we would've beat them anyway, but it still hurts. And the worst part is, I can't report him! The only thing I could do is block him, which I did right away. Online sucks
Lmao that man was salty as fuck . My worst experience ? ah yeah , I play meta knight soooooo. . . yeah
Dude that sucks I've had a random teammate do that to me before too (I didn't have rules on either for some reason lol)
@@derp4752 I don't understand why Nintendo just let's this happen lol
@@jedimanx2329 yeah Nintendo shouldn't let the random teammates online share stocks lol
You can report people in the Records menu. Go to Past Opponents and hit report.
Great video, only think to note is that tourney modes change every 2 days, sl there are 2 days of 4 player free for all and then 2 days of 1v1 items off Omega or Battlefield stages tourneys
Plz keep making these types of videos, keep up the good content poppt
The way I assume GSP "randomness" works:
The skill level of smash players online resembles a bell curve: there isn't a lot of terrible players, a lot of average players, and a few really good players. But since each person online takes up one "slot" of GSP (or a bit more than 7 million people), the skill difference between people at 10,000 and 20,000 GSP is going to be a lot greater than the difference between people at 3,500,000 and 3,510,000. So, when you play games at very low or very high GSP, your GSP will probably not change that much, since you have only surpassed a relatively small amount of other online players. But, when you win (or lose) a game in the mid-range of GSP, you will have slightly surpassed (or fallen below) a lot more players, since that is where the bell curve is thickest.
Then, the other part he describes at 19:20 (again, this is just my guess at how the system works):
If you're at 5,000,000 GSP, and you're matched against an opponent at 5,000,001 GSP, then your skill level should be almost exactly the same. If you win, you can expect to gain (as an example) 200,000 GSP. If you lose the match, you can expect to lose the same amount of GSP. However, if you're at 5M GSP and you're matched against an opponent who's at 3M, he should be less skilled player than you, and you won't get as big of a reward for beating him; let's say you'd only gain 100,000 from winning that match. But, if you lose to him, that means that your GSP is too high for your skill level (to the system, at least) and you lose more GSP from it, let's say 700,000.
Alternatively, if you have 5M GSP and you're matched against an opponent who's at 7M GSP, you will be rewarded a lot more from winning, and penalized less from losing. This is because you shouldn't really be expected to win against a player that much better than you, but if you do win, Nintendo wants to get your GSP up faster so you can start fighting people closer to your skill level.
Let me know other thoughts you have!
Jeremy Maxwell just saying you said 5,000,000 GPS once and I’m not trying to be a dick with this correction but others could be. I think that what you said does help but what about when you play a character for the first time and lose I dunno about 1,000,000GSP and I’m at 5,500,000GSP before the loss but later with the same character (let’s say Pit) gets back to 5,500,000GSP and loses Pit then lost 300,000GSP and each time his opponent had 5,903,200GSP each time. Why would Pit lose more on his first match when his opponents and his own GSP didn’t alter when he played an opponent who had the same GSP when he climbed back up (after 10 matches he got back there)
@@AverageHandle_ Thanks lol I didn't notice that! Just fixed it:)
And to answer your question, I think it has to do with a stat called variance. I also play hearthstone, and they made a video explaining why the rating system rewards for their tournaments fluctuated so much; I tried to find the video and link it, but I can't find it unfortunately:(
But basically, variance is the measure of how solidified a certain character is in its GSP. When you first start playing online with someone, like Pit, his variance is going to be very high, so a win or loss will change his GSP a lot. Once you play a lot of matches with him, the system has a much better idea of what your skill level with Pit really is, so a few lucky wins won't put you way above what your GSP should really be at with that character. This mechanic allows you to quickly get to a good GSP for you for different characters. Imagine if in every match, no matter your GSP, you gained/lost exactly 100,000. For a really good player, it would take tons of matches against players much worse than you to get up to 6,000,000+ GSP. Or, on the other hand, if you want to try playing a character you're really bad with, and your roster GSP is 7,000,000, it would take 50 or more matches against other good players, probably playing their mains, to get down to a level where you could practice and improve. Instead, your variance with a new character is high enough that you can quickly get to a GSP that reflects your skill level with that character, and then fluctuate less.
Jeremy Maxwell wow ok thank you
Really good job explaining everything, i'm not the smartest tech person and now i understand why ultimate online sucks. #FixUltimateOnline
Not to forget that tournament does not match you against players with similar GSP.
Great video!!!
Even in 2024, playing online is awful. It's literally the lag! Even the servers in smash 4 was better :/
Sakurai: *watches this video*
Sakurai: fighter pass 2 cancelled.
Honestly its not even the wifi at this point, its the game itself
Online lag is so bad it's no wonder why some people can never improve beyond mashing, no point in using more brainpower if the two moves can do so much
This "rollback netcode" thing sounds pretty good, I wonder if this can be operational on any Smash games...
it can. just that the Sakurai and his team doesn't know how to implement.
I thought I was just getting shit on online. The input delay is definitely a major problem
I just wish we had for glory and for fun back, we have less input delay and we have the sm4sh buffer system back and I secondary banjo so the amount of times I press dtilt get knocked offstage and then do a dair so I lose
Joe Mama that’s rough buddy
Andell Monkhouse it sucks it’s the main reason I’m scared to use him when I go to tourneys or do online ones because of the pandemic
I know what you mean, I wish I had a dollar for every time I tried to tech and I air dodge to my demise
Thank you for making this video. As a rosa main I have to explain alot all the time why I don't play online competitively and why I lose so much online. But with this, I can say "watch this video."
I do like playing online because I get to test my skills with real people, I tend to not care about gsp but I sometimes don’t like it going down because I’ll be matched with people who I already know I can beat or just kids who spam with a character that has potential, it really sucks that online isn’t the best because I enjoy it but trying to do combos with my falcon is quite difficult because I know I can do them offline but online just makes it worse.
Albeit late, Thank you so much for this! l've heard so much complaining about Smash Online but never understood concisely "why"
19:27 I remember I once lost over a million gsp after I lost to a marth by 1 stock
Wait, so that wasn't a hyperbole? You can *actually* lose a *million* GSP from one lost game?
Imbatross the Scrub oh I’ve had it happen two times in a row, and it can go the other way as well
@@imbatrossthescrub2096 you can, I would be on a 5 game win streak for measly gsp then lose one time and have a ludicrous amount of gsp taken from me. It's the dumbest ranking system I've ever seen
This was a very well made video Poppt1, as a casual player myself it’s nice to understand the nitty gritty details of why my online play feels better sometimes over others. I’m not looking to great, but I agree I’d like a more consistent online play.
0:17 song? Also, great videos keep it up! They're educational and entertaining.
The things i HATE the most about each gamemode in ONLINE:
QUICKPLAY: you cant change characters for a rematch, and NO TAUNT
ONLINE TOURNEY: DLC stages NEVER show up, they are disabled in this mode.
Arenas: Waiting in lines.
Also arenas: People who host it.
@Walther Penne
Wait wait wait, could you explain bro
I always wondered why DLC stages wont appear in online tourney, ??!!
even tho i payed for them
I've been playing mk11 dealing with nothing but scorpions that literally jump away to the corner to teleport/chain/ spear combo. Incredible rage can come from losing to a very low skill person milking a strategy that only works because of the lag.
That being said, it is nothing compared to the rage induced by smash ultimate lag.
is mk11 in switch at least playable or it sucks as in smash?
ive been wanting to buy it
@@Nostra_ the online is leagues better than smash. Smash was so bad that after coming back to it recently, I couldn't even get mad. Watching your character air dodge ten seconds after you pressed the button is just funny now. There's nothing elite about it. It's just an elite scam that they charge money for because most of the player base are just young people that will accept it. Mk is quality, what you'll find there are people that play like absolute bitches lol. But atleast you'll get your 2/3 and the lag is a rare occurrence in comparison to smash
@@Nostra_ mk 11 on switch use the rollback netcode as mentioned in the video, its not perfect but its league's better then SBU
Everyone on that fucking game plays with him but that is this generation for you.
When you acquire online terminology through frustration. the lag ate my input.
I only play online when playing with friends or the small online tournaments friends on discord host. Other than that, I play against LVL9 bots. The only time I played online for any other reasons than these, it was to see what it was like. And I hated it. I constantly got killed because of all the input delay, or because of lag, and occasionally because I was actually shit at the time. And it sucks because I wanna get good by maybe finding people better than me and seeing how I could improve, but I just can’t get used to online play because of how shitty it is. I wish Nintendo will eventually fix up the online stuff. Maybe they can add that in along with the new ARMS character, and show their fans they aren’t completely blind to things that very clearly need to be made better. Tbh, I’d even be fine with them removing online for a bit so they can work on making it better for their fans. But, sadly, my hopes for that are lower than my current GSP for my main.
Oh to be able to even play online with friends. Instead all I got is boring ass and predictable CPUs or QP where projectiles are a nightmare to go against. Or I face Kirby or Little Mac Players that spam up tilt. While I can't do so much as move around even when I'm playing a wifi character because of the delay netcode. I hate players that abuse the online like they're something else. I am starting to just lose it with Smash Ultimate because of online.
I so badly wanted Little Z's egg knock to be synced with the drop of the song or added as a beat LOL
Once your GSP drops, it’s never coming back. You gain more points the higher your GSP. And you lose more. When you are a low gsp, you gain less, like a lot less and you lose about the same as you gain.
And what's even crazier is one of the reasons why that happens is because online keeps matching you with people with higher gsp but not elite smash level
Mkleo’s joker was so godlike offline because it was mainly reactionary but he also has amazing fundamentals, I miss offline tourneys.😭
Online doesn’t feel friendly to new players. I got my first switch today with smash and tried online just to play with other people but I keep getting matchmaking into one and ones ffs even with preferred setting 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️
Also people are just constant spammers and it’s just such a mood killer ngl trying to just deal with someone cheap.
I kinda wish I got Mario Kart 8 instead 😅
1 v 1 tourneys happen in the tourney section every week! The turn out for 1v1 is easily 3-4 times the item tourneys, so they alternate item tourneys/1v1 tourneys twice a week!
I used to play offline so much and when I decided to play online as my main “pit ,shocker” I could not land a single combo or land my arrows
I felt this so much. Dude, i am able to land 23 combo with Lucas, i used trainer and worked my way to reach that, i know it's not amazing and I'm sure there's other better records. But when i go online, I'll be lucky is i land two 😭
This is the best video I have seen explaining Ultimate's online, amazing job!
Bro who turned poppt1 into a robot when he wrote this script lol
they could just make a server in which both people connect to, (same thing that fortnite, warzone and other big online games do) , and have it so if their connection speed sucks, they lose out and lag, and the other person wont, they will see the lag but it wont affect them, this way if both players do have a good connection, they will have the same input delay, regardless if one person lags or not
Why does everyone hate Smash Ultimate online? Hmm..let's see. We deal with:
1. Some of the worst netcode in gaming history
2. Fighting the most cancerous players
3. Getting no fulfillment from getting characters into Elite Smash
4. Dealing with abysmal lag
5. Losing over a couple hundred thousand GSP from losing *ONE* match
6. Gaining next to nothing in terms of GSP
7. Online Zelda
8. Online Sonic
9. Online Banjo and Kazooie
10. Online Joker
11. Online Rob
12. Online Cloud
13. Online Villager/Isabelle
14. Online Samus/Dark Samus
15. Battle Arenas, where people literally kick you out because they're salty sore losers
16. Having a Tournament mode that was good when it first came out, but now sucks because of the two stock rule
17. A horrible Preferred Rule system that doesn't work half the time
18. People who T-bag you when you accidentally SD
19. People who forfeit the game because they made a mistake
20. People who leave after one match in Elite Smash/Quickplay
21. The inability to change your character after a match in Elite Smash/Quickplay
22. The inability to choose a stage before and after a match in Elite Smash
23. The abundance of sword characters
24. Unintentional buffering
25. Input consumption
Does that answer your question?
I wish I could like this comment more than once
I feel like i get players on antartica wifi 100% of the time.
Me: let me do a jump so I can recover!
Smash Online: lol no