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The Problem of Interpreting "Signs" from God
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Размер видео:
- Опубликовано: 3 фев 2018
- Taken from "The Messenger The Story Of Joan Of Arc"
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You clam to be my judges, YOU BE CAREFUL!! For you will be judged 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
And they were.
The Trial of Jeanne D'Arc is one of the most well documented events of the High Middle Ages, particularly impressive considering its main figure was an illiterate peasant girl, one of several traveling about 15th century France claiming to receive messages from God about the destiny of the nation (though, obviously, Jeanne was the most prolific of these). France was of course eager to believe such claims, as there had been many folkloric traditions of a pure young woman who would save France.
Jeanne was captured during an ambush on a rear guard outside of Compiègne, and thereafter transferred from Burgundian to English control. The film justifies Pierre Cauchon's presence as being the presiding Bishop in the diocese of her capture, but this was not thhe justification. In fact, in a proper ecclesiastical trial of the time, he would not have been the proper Bishop, and had to receive a special grant to head the proceedings, maneuvering himself onto them to preserve English interests.
The English had a troublesome prisoner of war on their hands, one who frequently tried to escape, whose capture emboldened their enemies to attempt a rescue deep into English-held France. As such, they hoped to get rid of her while simultaneously embarrassing the Armagnacs and discrediting their cause.
Although captured by secular forces, and held as a prisoner of war, the English justified this with accusations of breaking religious laws, and so had to submit her to an Inquisition. This involved strict proceedings, beginning with defamattio (the accusations of witchcraft) and character inquiries. Pierre Cauchon sent agents into France to map every move she made, beginning with her home in Domrémy. Meanwhile, the Duchess of Bedford, wife to the Regent of England, examined her hymen privately to determine her virginity. To Cauchon's dismay, the Duchess confirmed it. Worse still, the main agent Cauchon sent to collect dirt on Jeanne yielded "nothing concerning Joan that he would not have liked to find about his own sister". Cauchon was so displeased he refused to pay the man and called him a traitor.
The Vice-Inquisitor for Rouen, one Jean Le Maistre refused to attend the meetings. Since his presence was required by canon law, this was probably an attempt to stop the proceedings that he deemed partial and corrupted by political interests. He only attended when threatened by the English. This was later deemed a serious violation of Inquisitorial procedure.
Pierre used much of the interrogations to attempt to trap Joan. He frequently asked for public demonstrations of faith, some of which would be improper. The portion about confession is true. At one point in their sessions, she was asked "are you in a state of grace?" This was a trick question. If she answered no, she described herself as sinful. If she answered yes, she would be claiming to know that which only God would. She instead replied "If I am not, may God put me there; and if I am, may God so keep me. I should be the saddest creature in the world if I knew I were not in His grace." She added, if she were in a state of sin, she did not think that the voice would come to her; and she wished every one could hear the voice as well as she did. One of the assessors, Jean Lefèvre, present as a witness, called it a grave question that Jeanne did not have to answer. According to one of the notaries, her answer stunned the whole of the assembly.
Thank You!! This was very indepth, I did not know most of this ❤
Historians have debunked this movie's portrayal of the subject on virtually all important points, including very basic ones such as the portrayal of battles and sieges as well as these sections dealing with her visions, which are handled in a manner which isn't even close to how she described them. She also never rejected them, according to eyewitnesses who were at her trial and execution. The scriptwriter, Andrew Birkin, said he rewrote the subject based on his own personal belief that the Bible says God would never support any military campaign for any reason (even defensive war), hence he claims Joan was a fraud who was motivated only by revenge (for a fictitious rape and murder of her sister Catherine which never actually happened). He rewrote her description of her visions for the same reason, replacing her description with his own version which makes her visions easier to debunk (e.g. routine incidents such as a gust of wind or a sword in a field) in contrast to her actual descriptions of more substantial events that she and sometimes other people experienced. At the end of the movie she "saves her soul" by adopting Birkin's version of Christianity (the Church of Birkin). Very little of it has anything in common with history.
Dude I felt that way when alien 3 came out.
Thanks, fren.
The true story is a goodread she was a winner at first, then she couldnt decipher the right dreams and ppl died boom,they said God left her and now the devil has her
@@dantelane2020 She described visions rather than dreams, and she interpreted them to mean she would be "captured before St. John's Day" and so she was correct about that. Her own side continued to support her even while in prison: there were at least four rescue attempts (some historians put the number at five) by the Royal army; the Archbishop of Embrun continued to support her and urged Charles VII to rescue her, etc.
yea i dont like how the mopvie portrayed her as crazy in the end, and self deluded. The movies message could have been better if they simply tried to give joan some doubt. maybe as if her visons were actually evil rather than divine. from an evil source. that could have been her doubt . and the real inquisitors of history posited exactly this. That the source of her visions were from evil unholy powers. not the powers of god and the christ.
People always talk about the inaccuracy of this movie. Well, I think it portrays religious psychosis pretty accurately. Joan killed in the name of god and then was killed In the name of god. Everyone thinks and speaks for God when they have no right.
At that time a sword was a great weapon. Claiming that anybody could have found a sword in a field is as credible as to claim that I can find an assault rifle on my backyard just by pure randomness. In those days a sword was a specialist weapon. You don't get to find one by accident. Joan was right.
So if you find an assault rifle in your backyard, you think the most reasonable explanation is that god descended from heaven to put it there?
@@BurnBird1 This is obviously a mockery comment, but I'll respond anyway. Look one does not imagine "signs by God" as literally an assault rifle coming down from a cloud, slowly levitating towards you with an epic chorus on the background. One imagines it as something more "subtle" - it isn't, almost never is, scientifically unexplainable. Something can be scientifically explainable and still be considered a miracle anyway. Both things are not contradictory as science explains how but never why and the human mind is prone to asking why things happen not just how they happen. Religious signs are always about the interpretation one gives. If you are beign chased by a bear and you find a spear in a field, to defend yourself you can think of it as casuality, but it doesn't make you irrational or insane if you think it's help from God. Even if the spear was left there by somebody else. Get the point?
lol
Well to be fair, a war was going on after all, I think it's not really surprising if you found an assault rifle in a middle of a warzone
You have apparently mistaken the point made - it was not that finding the sword was unlikely, it was her interpretation of the reason for it that was questioned (by a character named in the credits as 'conscience')
You cannot disobey or arrest any high priest of that time , the bishop would sent the english captain to the stake easily
True. So many inaccuracies in this movie.
Normans held the pope hostage for couple of months, Henry II has killed by mistake the archbishop and also his former best friend on consecrated ground...list goes on 😀
It was true. There were priest who have been arrested for not wanting to participate.
Just to remind you, there are kings who will even change the kingdom's religion and hunt down Catholics and priests.
@@wakh9647 direct assault to the Pope's representatives means direct assault to the Pope himself, this guy is just a captain , not a king
Says the laws of the church, but the influence and power of the Vatican shifted with the authority of the Pope himself and the power of the major Christian nations.
Although the Vatican held authority over the immortal souls of men, Popes and their servants were often arrested, abducted, tortured, bribed, coerced and murdered in the pursuit of earthly gains, when it couldn't be afforded for a man of church, corrupt or not, to interefere.
A very great film❤️
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Messenger:_The_Story_of_Joan_of_Arc
😘😘😘
That moment they started beating her i felt sick to my stomach😢
The film critics miss the significance of Joan's life, the same as the Church.
There's no question that Luc Besson ignored the historical biography of Joan and trial records.
But he focused on the significant moments in her life, ingeniously filling gaps with artistic license.
Who wouldn't have doubts about their visions and voices? It's biblical. Jung saw how dreams etc can be equivocal.
Somehow we have to work it out, as Joan had and Jung later did. Who sends visions, voices and dreams? (Genesis 41; 1 Kings 22)
As it is, Joan never killed anyone. But Besson shows how our conscience can torment us about harm we've caused but may be in denial.
This is a basic clinical fact. Interestingly, both Luc Besson and Dustin Hoffman later denied sexual harassment and assault allegations.
In the end, look who pronounces the benediction. There is a certain grace if we can "be honest," as the dark robed conscience says to Joan.
It can set us free, as he also indicated. Who else said this? (John 8:32)
The great biography of Joan by the historian Regine Pernoud, St. Joan of Arc (in her own words), shows why God chose her, which Besson showed.
Who wouldn't be endeared to her for her constant confessions? God certainly was. But Besson omitted in the end how she remained true to her voices.
This is why she was burned to death. They feared she was a messenger of God. How else could an illiterate peasant girl say and do the great things she did?
Her eloquent appeal to the papacy in Rome is testament. "The Church must be served, but God must be served first." It is the cry of all prophets, especially Jesus.
The Church tried to amend it's failure to stop her execution with an inquiry 20 years later absolving her, and then canonizing her 500 years after that. But it has yet
to consider the significance of realizing and tending to our own visions and voices. Jung highly recommended it. Jesus rejected the Chief Priests in Matthew 23:13
for slamming shut the door to the kingdom of heaven, preventing others from going in, and not going in themselves. He could easily say the same things today.
Psalm 46:10 calls us to know the living God as Jesus also said and did. "Be still and know that I am God." Joan certainly did. This is true with all the spirits in us whom God
sends. To be spiritual means knowing the spirits in us, especially good ones from bad, who may be one and the same, as seen in this great movie. It is how we can be whole
or holy, as Jung believed. But who cares to know both their Angels and Demons like St. Joan? Few care to know their Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, or Ms. Hyde, as Jung observed.
Dreams don't lie, especially about the Church and film critics who miss the significance of great movies like this. Jesus prayed for deliverance to His dying day as did St. Joan.
1:35, 2:28
I realize how Joan of Arc doesn't want to unless her confession is heard.
💙
The conscience played by dustin hoffman is actually devil
That explains the black coat and mysterious demeanour.
No it’s not the devil. In one of the interviews Luc Besson said it was Joan’s conscience
@@CorollaDiTenebre ok so this is like a literary thing but anyways lets say it is your conscience, what do people say you ever seen disney cartoons? I remember this when i was a kid it stuck out to me. Its in a lot of disney cartoons actually but the specific one I am thinking is pluto the dog had a angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other ruclips.net/video/RseLZ9LqQv0/видео.htmlsi=26yxI5DrxbYUDQ5z
@@darkside9547 if you notice what he is doing is constantly casting doubt on her and gaslighting her. Bes like a prosecutor in court really. Devil actually means accuser and also slanderer. Poor joan is pretty smart but she doesn't know how to debate and cant think clearly. She had some good comebacks though and remarks. She was only 19 guys
@@user-sb8gw6ep5v he’s her conscience so it’s HER who’s doubting herself and her doings. She is accusing herself of being arrogant to think that she knows what god wants. It’s a normal thing for a human being to have doubts: think of Gethsemane.
I don't break the law i am the law
They went to great lengths with this trail. All that was required was to throw her in a pond. If she floated, she was a witch. That’s because wood also floats and also burns, the same as a witch.
Or eating...OR DRINKING BLOOD OF EITHER.
10:32