I am an ER Doc, 25 years in trauma centers. Something to remember, in a fight, penetration is your friend, accurate shooting ends the threat. Over penetration is only the concern to those not involved in the fight. Good practice makes perfect. The true advantage to the 9mm is the cost per round. It’s cheaper, so you can practice more, felt recoil is less. If you can afford to train and a lot, bigger is better,no one has too much ammo in a fight. Your choice.
Well said doc, except the person holding that defensive firearm surely ought to be concerned about over penetration or better stated the path of each round.
Over penetration is extremely important. Some years ago, there was significant kickback because law officer rounds were over penetrating and injuring or killing innocent bystanders. It’s certainly important if you’re behind the intended target.
Used a P10 as EDC, Sheriff's dept went to a G23 for duty 🤔tried it IWB. No more bricky than the 45, so I switched. 3 extra rounds/mag. Still hit with it. Because I was just out and about in decent casual dress I'm carrying 1911 lightweight Commander. As long as you hit, carry what you're comfortable with. I have a singlestack 9 for weddings and funerals.
All pistol rounds kind of suck unless they hit with over 600ftlbs. Revolvers suck with capacity, so you pretty much need at least 10mm to supplant a rifle. Otherwise the pistol is there to get you to a rifle. If you have any lesser calibers capacity is king.
As a retired gunsmith and peace officer I will give my thoughts. Then the keyboard warriors can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. In Vietnam, I carried a 1911A1 in 45 Auto. It was effective in engaging the enemy. I came home after three years of combat. Later, serving as a peace officer, I was engaged in three shootings using a big S&W mod 28 357mag. Managed to walk away from them all. Ok, those are my experiences in combat. As a gunsmith specializing in combat handguns, the .357mag, 38spl +P, and 45 Auto all performed well in armed conflicts with criminals. But one thing I've noticed in people, not weapons. Fads, marketing, and increasing sales. MONEY! I can go hunt anything in N. America with a .30'06 Springfield and be successful. But there's dozens of gunmakers that'll offer well over 50 others calibers saying they're better. Why? Easy. MONEY! I'll be blunt. The 9mm is the "it" caliber because they (gun makers and ammo companies) say so. The entire industry has promoted it simply to generate the most profits from the easily persuaded public. People are easily manipulated by image and hype. One has a Camero, the other's in a Corvette. Who's cooler? You be the judge. Not me. Fads come and go. 1930s to 1950s the 38spl was king. 1960s to 1980s it was the 357mag. 1980s to 2000 the 1911 was hotrod stuff. Today, it's the 9mm in plastic striker fire weapons. Fads and marketing. It's simple as that. As for me, an old cop and gunsmith? I'm past 70. I'm old and cantankerous to boot. I shoot hogs, coyotes, and other varmints in my woods with an 1873 design 45 Colt in a Single Action Army revolver. Why? I don't follow fads. I believe in what works for me.😏
in a private citizen context there are no more losses in gun fights with a 22lr then a 9 mm, its less about the caliber and more about the operator of the gun, even claude werner can show this, so your going by feelings and what you here from non verified sources or sources that cherry pic stats to fit their bias
I respect your opinion sir and thank you for your service, However Your individual experience doesn’t make the Rule. The reason why 9mm is superior is due to multiple factors, High fps is good for Hitting targets that are constantly moving and ducking in and out of cover, Low recoil allows you to stay on target more effectively and make more consistent follow up shots, More rounds at one’s disposal typically wins battles especially if the users skill and shot placement and knowledge of Anatomy is all at a basic level then that will be more than viable to be more than effective in most small arms fire engagements.
@@hocusstrokus no facts to support your claims, its more the operator then caliber proven by researcher like claude werner who has factual data bases showing its less about caliber in final outcomes despite one having a caliber having more power then the other so your going off on non factual claims, your argument is about power and not final outcomes
Thanks for the video. I don't mean to be picky, but I wanted to point out a few details of the 1986 Miami shootout that may be a little different from what you stated. I've always heard that the bank robber who had been a Green Beret in Vietnam was armed with a Ruger Mini-14 and not an AK-47. I'm fairly confident in that detail. The FBI agents were armed with several types of handgun. Three of them were armed with .357 Magnum or .38 Special revolvers. I've heard that all of those agents were carrying .38 Special +P ammunition, but I'm less certain of that fact. One agent was carrying a shotgun as his primary weapon. At the end of the shooting, he used a revolver chambered either in .38 Special or .357 Magnum. One agent lost control of his gun and never fired. Three agents were shooting 9mm pistols with Winchester Silvertip ammunition. I first started looking at firearms seriously in 1992, and the magazines of that time were constantly running articles about the 1986 Miami shootout. At the time, I just took everything that they said as the truth or close enough to the truth. I picked up many of the attitudes and thought processes that the firearms community had at the time. Since that time, I've spent a career as an engineer with a huge amount of experience in failure analysis and root cause analysis. That career has involved looking at evidence and how things happen. Most of my work was on the technical side of things, but I've also looked at human factors issues as well. These life experiences have caused me to look at armed self-defense differently. Much of life is an exercise in probabilities. Planning for every eventuality is not often practical, so we have to use our resources to mitigate what is likely and then consider what additional steps can mitigate some of the unlikely outcomes at a reasonable cost. Without going into too many details, I believe that there will be an element of chance in every shot. No matter how perfectly we aim the gun, each shot will vary a little bit. No matter how perfectly we aim the gun, the attacker will likely be moving. Wherever a defender was aiming as he (or she) started to pull the trigger, a different spot will be aligned with the barrel when the shot is fired. No amount of perfection in the defender's actions can change the fact that the bullet might not end up hitting the attacker ideally. Small differences in where the bullet hits can have big differences in how quickly the attacker stops. I think that these differences will be more important than the differences between different calibers. Because of that, I no longer see arguments over the efficacy of different calibers as meaningful. People might have fun arguing, but on a practical level, I don't see any difference in the big four self-defense calibers (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum). One factor that I'd like to see considered in evaluating shooting data is the difference between citizen shootings and law enforcement shootings. I suspect that citizen shootings involve a psychological factor that could be important. When a criminal tries to attack a citizen and the citizen shoots the criminal, the criminal will realize that his best chance of survival is to flee. The citizen has no obligation to arrest the criminal. While some people will become angry and want to keep fighting the criminal, most citizens will want to escape. A criminal should know that he can avoid being shot by running away. On the other hand, a law enforcement officer who is shooting a criminal is probably having to shoot because he also has to arrest the criminal. If the criminal runs away, he will continue to pursue the criminal. In that scenario, the criminal can't just end the situation by stopping the attack. The criminal will feel a greater need to stop the officer. I suspect that this difference means that a citizen is more likely to get a "psychological stop" than a law enforcement officer is. Because I hold this belief, I don't feel a need to buy the fanciest self-defense ammunition. I feel confident enough in any reasonable hollowpoint ammunition. I believe that if I hit the attacker anywhere in the "9 ring" with a good hollowpoint bullet, I have a pretty good chance of surviving the attack. In some cases, the attacker will continue, but in many cases, that hit will give me a "psychological stop" that will keep me from suffering further injury. Out of 1000 scenarios where I would have to fire a handgun in self-defense, I believe that only one or less than one will have a different outcome if I have some fancy self-defense ammunition compared to a "regular" hollowpoint. I'm not going to worry much about changing the outcome in this one in a thousand or less than one in a thousand scenario. I decided to join the modern world and buy a pistol instead of just owning revolvers around 2005. At that time, I had already largely decided that the important self-defense pistol calibers were 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. When I was choosing among them, the final factor was bullet weight for carrying. While 9mm comes in many weights, I generally think of 9mm bullets as being 124 grains and that bullet weight as being the only really important part in differentiating cartridge weight. I thought of .40 S&W as being 180 grains and .45 ACP as being 220 or 230 grains. Again, each cartridge will weigh a little more, but the big factor is bullet weight. I decided that per pound of cartridges carried on my back, I could have twice as many shots of 9mm as .45 ACP. The advantage over .40 S&W wasn't as dramatic, but the advantage still fell to the 9mm. For most situations, the weight difference of ammunition isn't important, but I let myself be influenced by that factor. In hindsight, I should have come to the same decision for different reasons. Per round, 9mm will probably always be less expensive than .40 S&W or .45 ACP. Less expensive ammo means more practice for the same ammo cost. More practice is always better if the practice is effective practice, and simply changing caliber won't make ineffective practice into effective practice. I'm at the point in life where I'm not really going to criticize anyone over the choice of self-defense caliber. If someone uses a firearm for legitimate self-defense and puts all bullets into the attacker without hitting any bystanders downrange, I applaud that person. I like 9mm for myself. If I win the lottery, I'm going to have 9mm plus .327 Federal Magnum, .380 ACP, 9mm Makarov, .40 S&W, 10mm, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 Colt, and .45 ACP. Until then, I'm happy enough with 9mm, .38 Special, and .357 Magnum.
In 1994 I found 2 Black Teens inside of my car when I came out of work. I yelled at them (not smart) and they pulled out knives. I pulled a .380 Sigma and they ran away. Got attacked at a pay phone in Detroit after a Red Wings game. Pulled my EL 950bs and they ran away. Girl next door scared out of her mind, dude told me to go away, pulled my LH9 and HE went away (fast). Sitting in Denny's and heard 3 Teens talking about robbing me, opened my coat and showed them and they left quick. I have been very blessed not to have spent my life in prison.
I find it great you never had to fire a shot - and I salute you - you had the wisdom to actually CARRY your gun and brandish it ONLY WHEN NEEDED...and also blessed with not having to fire a shot !!! The other amazing thing is the amount of anti gun idiots that fail to acknowledge just how many THOUSANDS of times JUST SHOWING a firearm STOPS a crime or even a murder. These stats and situations are NEVER mentioned by the artist- I am glad you've reminded us of this important aspect of concealed carry for good citizens... thanks for sharing your accounts with us.
Great presentation !! Great history on the 9mm cartridge and why it is the preferred ammunition the world over. In my law enforcement career I used 38, 357 and then 9mm. What a game changer from using speed loaders and then magazines !!!! I have tried many brands and still prefer Federal HST 124 or 147 gr for my carry weapon. And you are correct you need to train, train and train and shot placement is critical, but having 12+ rounds is also nice.
Great video! I appreciate the fact you didn’t dog the other calibers, you made the point several times that accuracy is the key with any caliber. I remain I diehard .40 cal. man in a G23 with a few of my personal mods of my own. Thanks for your input!
@ I think so too! I put some different springs in my to help with the trigger pull. I take a Dremmel tool and round off the trigger guard and under cut the grip to get a higher purchase on the grip. I like the Glock grip angle and the recoil in my opinion is not a problem ( with practice of course) and most of the new technology in 9mm defense is being applied to .40 cal. too so I can’t see no advantages in 9mm in wound ballistics. True 9mm is softer shooting and has more capacity but I still believe.40 cal. is a better defense round.
@@jimmiewilliams8271 You guys should really try M&P 2.0 in 40sw/357sig. I mean if you don't like the trigger, there are tons of options. I just bought a 3D printed strait trigger for $30.00, just the shoe, I love it. I usually install a semi curved polymer Apex shoe. $70.00. I you feel the grip is to rough; there are 3 or 4 companies that make rubber stick on grips. "Hand All" is my go to. Point is: recoil impulse is the best in the polymer pistol game. "Turkeys Opinion" did a limp wrist test and could not get the M&P to malfunction. I was Glock and or HK man for many years; 9mm. shoots flatter out of the Smiths as well.
For a given frontal area of a bullet, there is going to be an optimum powder load that insures reliable expansion of the bullet. 9 x 19 mm does that fairly well and so does 10 MM. If you are 6' 6" 300 lbs of all muscle a 10 mm pistol may be just right for you. For the average person a 9 x 19 pistol is probably the best compromise. For a 90 lb woman or an old man with arthritic hands, a 9 x 19 may be too much. Here is where a .30 Super Carry may be ideal if the powder load is reduced enough to make it easier to shoot, but still have sufficient velocity to insure reliable bullet expansion. It wouldn't be quite as effective s a 10 mm or a 9 x 19, but the person could shoot it effectively and have a few extra rounds in the magazine to make up for the loss of firepower. The problem with .45 ACP is that it is an UNDERPOWERED round. Increase the shell case length to include more gunpowder and you would have an EXTREMELY effective cartridge, provided that you had the hand strength to shoot it.
Regarding 0:14, the 9mm Luger is also known as the 9×19mm Parabellum. Para bellum comes from the Latin proverb, "Si vis pacem, para bellum" which means If you want peace, prepare for war.
We currently carry .25acp, fmj loaded...everyday means everyday (rule #1, have a gun, applies), and in our specific circumstance it is adequate...we bear in mind that retreat is often a viable option, and that blowing up the bad guy is not requisite...the .45 is in the safe, too big and heavy for EDC, the .38s now on HD duty...we haven't owned a 9mm pistol in over 10 years, imagine that...
The caliber debate is alway intriguing to me. Most conclude the argument by saying more is better. You can load more 9s than other calibers into the handgun. But living in California, it’s hard to go with that analogy. Regardless of caliber, you can only hold 10 rounds. So with that in mind, I say carry the largest caliber you can accurately shoot. The capacity limitations completely remove the number one benefit I always hear.
@thomaseynon6205 I had forgone capacity benefits long before the same magazine restrictions were enacted here in Washington State. There are literally dozens of videos on youtube showing assailants taking multiple 9mm rounds and still continuing to kill others.
@@eternalmercenary4639mm. will never be a round( out of a handgun) that produces one shot stops. In the 80s, 357mag was replaced by 38spl +p because of politics and optics. Surgeons and EMTs complained about the mess 125grn. semi jacketed hollow points made in the thoratic cavity. 357mag. did and will cause a pressure "bubble" in the chest. Water( or blood) cannot be compressed, only displaced. The 357mag bullet would instantly flatten and spread the vector of energy out and squash thoratic blood vessels. Viens and arteries can only flow in one direction due to tiny valves along the way. Viens slam shut and arteries purge blood to the brain and burst small capillaries. This is nothing but a brain bleed concussion. The 125grn sjhp sheds lead and usually ends up weighing around 90 grains with about 9 inches of penatration in 20% ballistic gel. 40sw. 135/150grn. @ 1325/1400fps and 357SIG 90/125grn. @ 1400/1600fps. are capable of instant incapacitation or one shot stops. I have several M&P 2.0 pistols in 40sw. that have 357SIG and 9mm. conversion barrels and springs. It makes sense why FBI, gun and ammo manufacturers push 9mm. and watered down 10mm. ( they don't convert, huh?) Money money money......... The hottest 9mm.+p+ can barely touch 500ft.lbs energy. My Grand Power QS1 is the smallest pistol I would fire those silly over pressured rounds through and still would not get but 450ft.lbs energy.
I like it because it is a heck of a lot cheaper than other ammo, so I can train more. Sometimes I carry a 9mm, sometimes I carry a .38. But the 9mm gets a lot more range time than the .38 because of cost.
Why 9mm Luger… Easy answer. Cheap as f…, just capable enough to let beancounters and marketeers hoodwink the users and it’s sooooo inclusive. Even a 110 pound small framed person can shoot it with some fundamentals.
Well done, couldn't have been put in a better way. When we used to build Hot rods we would always say there is no substitute for cubic inches. Well there's also no substitute for a larger round. That's like saying a morter is better than a cannon. Bigger round = bigger wound = better chance of hitting a vital = more damage & terminal shock. In addition a 45 acp or 40 S&W will not have the tendency to over penetrate like a 9mm because it is going so fast. They have the tendency to dump all of their energy into the target, and isn't that what you want???? Now, any pistol round should be shot out of a proper platform to get proper ballistic performance, especially 9mm. Nothing under 5 inches in length otherwise 9 times out of 10 you will not get consistent hollow point expansion. This is why the 9mm +p exists to compensate for this shortcoming. Most carry 9mm's are 4" or under in barrel length. The nine millimeters optimized for a five inch and above barrel in standatd ammunition otherwise you need a +p to compensate to push it to the velocities for proper expansion / performance. You do not have these Limitations with a larger caliber round so much simply because the round is already larger doesn't need to expand. In addition in most cases will not overpenetrate dumping all of its energy into the intended target. Now people can argue and they can throw any kind of word salad in there they want to justify their argument but at the end of the day the numbers never lie. I like the 9 For its international and military standardization and that's it. If i'm choosing that it's a logistical choice. Same goes with weapon selection but that's another topic for another time. 9's not a bad round it's just not all what the spinmasters crack it up to be.
@@nikos6220 Not to mention, if the FBI cons America into 9mm.; the less likelihood of their agents getting shot at by anything faster/bigger. 135/155grn. 40sw. at 1300/1400fps. are great out of short barrels. A Shield or 3.6" M&P 2.0 sub compact can really deliver instant incapacitation.
I appreciate the presentation, although you made a couple of errors regarding the Miami 1986 shootout. No agents were firing .357 magnum, their revolvers were loaded with 38+p. Agent Dove fired a 9mm Silvertip 115 gr into Platt. A 45 acp hardball or a .357 magnum would more than likely have penetrated through Platt's heart and caused enough damage to prevent him from executing the other agents. In my opinion, that is the lesson. I defer to Dr. Martin Fackler's conclusions that the most important aspect of bullet performance is penetration, second the size of the wound, and third don't depend on an expanding bullet. Modern bullet technology might usurp the third aspect but not the first two. I agree with your conclusion though, and as a firearm instructor I recommend 9mm as a compromise for many people. I choose to carry 45acp, although there is a time and place for a small 9mm with the right ammo - HST or Critical Duty.
@@richardsmith4187 Pretty sure the 124 has the correct balance of speed and penetration versus the 147 which has less speed and shallower depth when compared to 124. I would choose 124 to carry but wouldn’t want to be hit with either.
@@WarriorServantofYahThe 147 would actually produce more penetration, and less expansion. Although slower, it will penetrate further, due to that less expansion.
Very well said and explained … I carry a G19.3 daily 15 and 1 w a second magazine in the pocket .. 2 more g17mags in each vehicle and have had a Glock of one type or another since 1992 .. SemperFi
Many may ask why talk about .38 or .357 caliber when the main subject is about the 9mm Lugar. Convert everything to fractions of an inch for a clear comparison. Sizes of ammunition is measured in both Metric or Imperial. The .45-apc is an inch measurement. The 9mm Lugar is a metric size. A .38-special bullet is .357". The 9mm Lugar bullet is .355" which are very close measurements.
As far as effficacy, anything beyond a .22lr is a good defensive round as long as the hit is in the proper spot, but I digress. Used SuperVel products for years. First heard of them from a Mas Ayoob book (or article) and been using ever since. They were a BIG help during COVID keeping me stocked enough for regular practice and semiannual training. Great people. If you run across a problem with one of their products, they are on top of it helping to troubleshoot. I had a Beretta that was getting light strikes and jams with any mag, so I asked SV if anyone else had any complaints. They provided all kinds of advice to figure it out, but it turned out to be a light hammer and a recoil spring. Never had a problem since I changed them. Point being is they stand behind their products so they have me as a customer for life. I go elsewhere only when they don’t product something I need, like 7.62 NATO, 7.62X39, or .303 British.
Ballistics has come a long way. I carry a 9mm, and I'm very confident it will do its job. I have also praticed with it until I'm fast enough, and very accurate. He's right about accuracy. Rounds on target is number 1.
What a great discussion! The endless debate about what round is best... I'm an old retired Army E8, Abn Inf, and a few Aviation MOS. Combat tour in RVN [Air Cavalry]. I'm glad you interjected all the other factors that come into play about stopping the threat. Composure under fire, round placement, and so forth.
The Germans hated the Webley MK VI .455 that was used by the British Empire. The slow 265 grain bullet was very effective. Tim had a G26 9mm as backup. He had a few rounds left in his G21. The final three shots were headshots that ended the gun fight. The skipping rounds are taught in advanced Police training. Mas Ayoob has an interview with Tim.
I've interviewed Tim twice, BTW. He's a pal The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably - but fortunately - he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go. Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.
I really enjoyed this style of content from you. However, I just want to point out one misunderstanding that you spoke on caliber-wise. The 38 caliber was the more anemic round as 38 Long Colt in the Philippines, not the 38 Special. These two rounds are often confused and misunderstood. As this may be a bit confusing I will use a fast source such as Wiki to describe it faster than my perhaps long-winded otherwise explanation. I also just want to say I hope you make more of these, I am a history lover and enjoy this video. The .38 Special was designed and produced in 1898 to be a higher-velocity round, with better penetration properties than the .38 Long Colt that was in government service in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War. The .38 Long Colt revolver round would not penetrate the shields of the insurgent Philippine Moro warriors, and the government contracted with Smith & Wesson for a new revolver round. The .38 Special held a minimum of 21 grains of black powder, 3 grains more than the then-current .38 Long Colt, and muzzle velocity (with a 158 grain bullet) was 100-150 feet per second greater. - Source :Wiki The 1986 Miami Dade shootout consisted of FBI that used 357, 9x19 and 38 special along with a 12 gauge. The two suspects used the Mini 14, a 12 gauge and a 357. This is like you said why they tried the 10mm after this incident even though the first shot on one of the suspects, Michael Lee Platt was fatally with the 9x19 in the start of the fight. However, it did not stop him from continuing to fight. Shot placement is key as you touched on later even in this video. However, the 10mm was not continued with the FBI due to sales contracts with Smith and Wesson. The result of not using 10mm was due to a firearm purchase contract. The qualifications were actually good. The biggest issue with the 1986 shootout is the FBI agents were undertrained, and faced of two military veterans who were trained, Platt was Airborne and became an MP, and Matix was a marine who enlisted in the army and became an MP where they both had met. I only write this as I just don't want some misconceptions of history to exist if they can be corrected now. The point of your video however I enjoyed.
If you run the numbers concerning ballistics, recoil impulse, firearm size and reliability, the 357 sig is the best commercially produced semi automatic pistol round…. Period. Tho I’ll admit I’d hate to have live on the difference between most modern semi auto loadings.
Pretty disingenuous when you consider Miami-Dade wasn't as the FBI says a failure of pistol caliber. It was a failure of marksmanship first and them a failure in preparation ( Paul Harrell). The criminals were hit with 1 x 9mm and 2 x 38, until the end when an agent killed both of them with his .357. The proof that the FBI ran a cover-up, to hide their failure of marksmanship. with their "outgunned" explanation is the fact that they are back to carrying 9mm. It's so simple, it's stupid.
@@rustwins4442 They had a rifle in another car in stake out group but they were too far from the gunfight to take part in time. There is a book out by Ed Mireles : FBI Miami Firefight: Five Minutes That Changed The Bureau. This book breaks it down well.
Agent Ed Mirelis also used a pump action shotgun in the fight. I believe he ran the shotgun one hand for the other arm had been rendered useless from gun fire.
Most of the time a pistol stops an attacker with a psychological stop it's hard to worry about anyone but yourself when you have a hole going in your front and coming out the back
40 is NOT hard on guns MADE to shoot 40. GLOCK made 40 caliber guns based on 9mm frames. They broke. By choosing 40 instead of 9mm, I lose ONE round of capacity but gain larger holes on my target. I don't carry a Glock. I carry an H&K P2000 which was actually designed to handle the power of 40 S&W.
If .40 was hard on handguns, they would be no way they could make a 10mm that wouldn't break extremely quickly. Some of these handguns can handle borderline rifle cartridge pressures along as it was originally designed to do so. Lazy engineering to save money is what gave the 40 a bad reputation.
@@Lexicologist1971 M&P 2.0 in 40 SMITH AND WESSON. Makes sense that the M&P was designed around the cartridge with their name on it. Glock stole 40sw rounds while on a factory tour( dirt bag) they then( as you stated) shoved a 40sw. barrel into a G17 and called it a G22. I have a 2000sk in 40sw as, M&P just handles the recoil impulse better. The lighter Underwood or Double tap( Buffalo Bore is great but to damn expensive) 135/155grn. bullets will deliver 357mag terminal performance (instant incapacitation), then again I do have a 3.6 and 5 inch KKM 357Sig barrels.
.40 is harder on guns than 9mm. That's not really something that can be argued against. More pressure = more wear and tear. Needs beefier springs, more frequent spring maintenance, more frequent barrel swaps, etc. Nobody is saying that a gun can't handle a .40 just fine, but you can't say that it's not harder on guns. Saying otherwise is like saying that +P ammo isn't harder on a gun than standard ammunition. It's just a silly thing to say. And in most handgun platforms, you're losing more than 1 round by chambering up to .40.
@abettermind 40sw being harder on firearms due to higher cartridge pressure is a myth. Both cartridges operate at a maximum of 35,000 psi before becoming overpressure. 9mm has factory ammunition that can be +p and +p+ , which can operate operate at a max of about 42,000 psi, yet 40sw doesn't. Even the best +p+ 9mm ammunition is still 80 ft/lbf less powerful than the best
Great Video! Last I heard Evan was carrying a 9mm with Super Vel 90 gr ammo. In his "Handgun Stopping Power" books he found that the 9mm ball ammo had a 71% one shot stop rating. The better JHPs were around 90%.
@ Nothing you do to a minor caliber round is going to make it a major caliber! The legacy of the "Wonder nine" Is a lot of bullets sprayed, fewer bad guys hit, more innocents hit, property damage through the roof, and an 80% miss rate being called proof of the importance of magazine capacity! Worse, Niners now call any shooting where 1-3 rounds fired a bad shooting due to failure to msg dump
@ The .357 magnum remains the king of one shot stops! The nine will never dethrone the .357 due to Niners insisting on mag dumping! We do have bad guys dropping from single shots from the .357 SIG called bad shootings due to failure to mag dumping
I commented about this elsewhere in the thread. At the time, some of the FBI agents were issued the S&W Model 13 in .357 they carried 38 special +P rounds. This video isn't about that shooting, there are hundreds of discussion on that topic.
@tfbond8687 - Did you even watch the video? It is mind numbing how ignorant people become over the caliber debate. The size of the hole doesn't matter. He covered that as well. .45acp has proven no more effective than 9mm, .40 S&W, etc. It's not about the size of the hole. It's about putting as many bullets into a spot that matters as quickly as possible until the threat stops. Did you miss the part about the man shot 13 times by .45acp including a face shot. And he lived. The bullets were Hornady Critical defense. And before yoy say something like it could happen with 9mm too, yeah, probably so. What do you and all the other fill in the blank caliber fanboys not understand?
I see that sneak in a commercial box of +p setting there. I have a question I guess. What barrel are they shooting that they advertise 1300 fps from their 115 gr hollow points on the box? The best I have seen is just over 1000, which is nowhere near the 1300 fps the claim. I've heard some guys test them, and see mid to high 900s. What are they using a 16 inch test barrel to show 1,300 fps?
The CorBon 115 gr 9mm goes 1260 fps from my G26 as chronoed by me. The Federal 9BPLE +P+ 115 gr goes 1350 fps from my G34. The CorBon 115 gr loads goes 1515 fps from my 16 inch carbines. Best to chrono any loads you get in your pistols, just to be sure.
Awesome Mickey《☆》I usually carry my P365 with 13 rounds of 9mm but if I'm on my Motorcycle I like to carry my 38+P Bodyguard 5 shot revolver as it conceals better in my Leather jacket pocket. If I'm going somewhere that I know I'll have to leave my gun in the car I'll bring my NAA 22 Magnum 5 shot revolver as it would be the gun I'd care least about if it got stolen😁I'll never forget the Jared Reston story. I was working with his brother Rodney at the time. Jared was Very fortunate and I guess it taught me a lesson about Caliber effectiveness of the 45. I think the perp had a Glock that was chambered in 45. JSO was and still carries 40 S&W✌🏼😎☯️
Got most pistol calibers but after years of carrying, shooting, drawing from concealment my real world carry is the Glock 26 Gen 5 because I shoot it more accurate and consistent than other guns I have . At end of day I'm more concerned about hitting what I'm aiming at and 26 fits the bill for me .
You can have spare mags of 45 as well, one incedent of a 45 not working is a exception to the rule, it's not that a Glock 21 45 is bad, has nothing to do with that or ammo but the unfortunate ability to make good shot placements, everyone has a different response to a real threat despite training, the fight, freeze or flee kicks in with adrenaline, if you listen carefully Tim didn't blame it on the caliber or low capacity, he just thought 9 mm he would be more comfortable with, speer gold dot 230 grain I am very familiar with and 45 like anything else shot placement is key, also we have to rember the context is a police offer chasing to put cuff on, a private citizen in a gun fight with this guy only needs to defend while getting away or seeking cover, so although some private citizens incidences may mirror the police there are more differences then similarities, we have to be careful not to lump in police or military in the same context as a private citizens, it's the mission that drives the gear requirements says claude werner who like me crunch data bases on shooting and details but compartmentalize military, police and private citizens so we can get accurate study on what the data shows works from guns and ammo and more important is the operators actions behind gun and training, so many variables way beyond caliber that determines outcomes of gun fights, everyone has their pet variable like gun type, capacity, caliber, accuracy and many more so any fail of a caliber never rush to quickly to blame something rather then the person who is the operator of the weapon, for example the barreta 71 22 lr history you can read about dozens of guys with AK 47's taken out with a 22 lr, so proves it's less about caliber that all to often gets blammed when shot placement body chart from coroner shows dozens of roundcnot hitting the vitals, so when a person say even a 158 grain lead round nose didn't get the job done, let's see the chart and 1st shot to the last and what they hit and even is a guy is a well know cop you don't take a story at face value about a round not working, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence not matter ifvit massad ayoob telling the story or famous gun RUclips gurus or writers of books, making a book doesn't mean thing we're not bias based, cherry picked, straw dummy arguments or arguments of authority on a shooting subject with out providing detail and individual incidences for the public to look over and fact check, bob shasch cpd over 14 gun fights had no problem with a 45, so each cop is going to have there favorite and don't forget the 40 cal as well
After WWII the US Army tested the 38, 9, and 45 FMJ. RESULTS: 1. The special 9mm Parabellum case with a Cal 38 S&W bullet penetrated the M1 helmet at 50 yards, but not 60 yards. 2. The Winchester 9mm Parabellum (1,150 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 120 yards, but not at 130 yards. 3. The Canadian 9mm Parabellum (1,250 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, but due to lack of longer range facilities was not fired beyond this point. 4. The Cal .45 ammunition penetrated the helmet at 30 yards, but not at 35 yards. CONCLUSION: It is concluded that the Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition with the 1250 f/s velocity, had a longer range penetration power than any of the other ammunition tested. Prepared By: L O Spaulding, Ordnance Engineer H F Hawthorne, Ordnance Engineer E W Hopkins, Head Ordnance Engineer And that was that. Only took the Army another 40 years to make the switch.
@nickdial8528 penetration is job one. Can't wound/kill it if you can't touch it. Why the 45 is virtually irrelevant in service use today. A smaller hole beats a bigger dent was and is the prevailing attitude. Why service rifles are not 45-70s anymore.
@@nickdial8528 It's very relevant to the big picture. A projectile has several jobs and job one is penetration. You can't wound it if you can't touch it. They decided a smaller hole was better than a bigger dent, more often than not all things considered. Why service rifles are not 45-70s anymore. OTOH you can get carried away in the other direction too. The 4.6/5.7 are good examples of that.
While I am a huge fan of the 40 S&W, I did recently a few months ago decide to switch to my 9mm to be my main EDC at least for my work carry and when I go to larger stores just because it is so much more affordable to train with it frequently, and my 40 S&W was retired as a carry gun and now serves as my home defense gun. I still bring it with me just to get a little bit of Trigger Time with it here and there but yeah, it just made all the sense in the world to me to go with the 9mm as my main EDC.
Imo .40 is objectively a better cartridge, but the affordability of 9mm is the deciding factor for me too. Plus these new micro 9s that are the size of single stack .380s but are double stack 9s
if you bother to carry a belt gun, make it a 460 Rowland, with 60 gr Liberty Arms solid copper hps, at 2400 fps from a 4" barrel. I use the "hand in pocket" start for its 2x faster ccw draw and hit time, so I carry a 9x21 pocket gun, 45 grs at 2200 fps, 500 ft lbs no more recoil than a hot 380 load. Animal tests prove it to be superior. to a 4" 357 with 125 gr jhp's, Not bad for something that looks just a wallet in a velcroed-in Kydex front pants pocket holster.
I'm just happy whatever I can get my hands on😅 now that you mentioned that super vel ammo. I'm having a hard time finding those damn things everywhere I go. Merry Christmas
from hand in pocket start, you can learn to sidestep as you draw and "beat the drop" of a man who's pointing a gun at you. it's twice as fast as any other CCW draw. With calibers heavier than 9mm, in a 16 oz, 6" long pocket gun, you wont get the sub .20 second repeat hits that can be had with the right 9mm load. Misses and poor hits are the rule in combat, not the exception and having more than one attacker is commonplace. You wont get sub .35 second repeat hits with a .357 snub and if the bullets are heavier than 125 grs, they wont expand reliably in lung tissue from a 2" barrel, either.
9mm with a full metal jacket is not very effective, but ammo technology has dramatically changed. There are now very high-velocity, very effective rounds available that cause devastating damage. Lehigh bullets, for example, are very high-velocity and, because of their design, cause great damage and have good penetration. I carry 9mm Winchester Ranger +P+ ammo, which is renamed Black Talon ammo. This ammo is high velocity and opens up into a nasty hollow point with sharp edges on the expanded bullet. Bullet placement is critical with any cartridge. It doesn't matter how many rounds are fired if you miss your target.
Yea they're g17 sized, more suited for owb or shoulder holsters i won't deny that. Psa is working on a g19 sized rock though so we'll see. It's also the perfect caliber if you're really into having a pistol and pcc combo and it's a very light and compact cartridge so it's great for "shtf"; it's only drawback is cost.
90% of the time, I carry 9mm. The other 10% of the time ,its a toss up between .357sig. and 10mm. The 10mm for self defense is hot. Like Buffalo Bore or Underwood 180gr. HPs. This is for winter carry. If the 9mm recoil is the max recoil for you. Then stay away from 10mm and .357 sig. Cartridge. 10mm and .357 sig. Cartridge costs more. 9mm since it's so popular is less $. Thanks Mickey for the education...😊
The reason the military went to the 9mm was most other militaries in the world were using the 9mm so if a soldier ran out of ammo he could take some off a non-functioning body, like they couldn't take the firearm to for some reason, and to be able to carry more rounds that is also why the military went from 308 to 5.56 and look how well that worked out. The reason civilians went to the 9mm is that the military did as soon as the military went to that joke of a sidearm Beretta (Yes, let's go to war with a sidearm with an exposed barrel!?) from the 1911 everything was 9mm. (The Beretta did not win the competition to be the next firearm the Ruger P85 did but the politics chose the Beretta, a firearm at that time built in a communist country over an American-made gun should make you ask why?) People who like the 45 asked, (Why not make a double-stack 45?) The poor excuse given was it would not fit in the hand... Caliber progression: military 38 police 38. When the military went to the 45, so did the police, and when the military went to the 9mm, so did the police... politics not effectiveness.
Ellifritz's data showed that 9mm failed to incapacitate about 13% of the time compared to only 9% with .357. And 9mm averaged about 2.45 shots to stop someone compared to 1.7 shots for .357. So 9mm took 44% more shots to succeed, and failed 44% more often. In the FBI's public report on why it switched back to 9mm, it initially said it had the duty to issue its special agents the best performing ammo it could find, but ultimately it settled on what delivered merely sufficient performance because that is cheaper.
I have to learn to live with 9mm, due to ongoing nerve damage from my neck affecting my left arm and hand. Two handed grip is out. I'm getting a ported barrel for one .40 but have sold most of my magnum revolvers. Keeping one .45 Colt Blackhawk since I can load lighter rounds. Two .357s now have .38+p in them so they are good. I hate doing this but it can't be helped. 9mm it is. 😢. Oh the shame of it all. 😂
What is 38 super? A 9mm in 115-124 grain at close range hit like a 357 magnum and their not terribly accurate but 147 grain bullets are deadly accurate,. so its a toss up power or Accuracy,.. basically in all pistol calibers,... but 44 and 45 seem to do very well. In the 80's I had a 9mm then to me it was expensive, so I shot 38 special and 357 magnum.
@@sheldoniusRexAnd we even fixed that by making the cartridge a little shorter, and putting in a smaller frame. It only worked for 20 years or so as an absolutely fantastic caliber that law enforcement loved. And then all of a sudden, poof. The. FBI went to 9 mm because it was cheaper, and 40 went by the wayside. I still carry and love 40, I hope it makes a comeback when people come back to their senses.
To me it comes down to price. 9mm is the cheapest pistol round because it is the most popular world wide. 147 grain +p is a heavy bullet moving at 1100+ fps.
What's the new defensive cartridge they just launched a while back? I can't even remember it. Oh yeah 30 Super Carry... Not a single comment about it here. Must be an awesome cartridge eh?
@ Nobody has ever been attacked by a bowl of Jell-0 in any flavor! Only today's junk science would claim squirt gunning is superior! Only modern junk science would claim mag dumping with an 80% miss rate is a good shooting and proof of the importance of of magazine capacity
@ The .357 magnum remains the king of one shot stops and shall remain so for a very long time. 10MM or 7.5 BRNO might one day take the spot but since 9ners insist on nag dumping, the 9 will never threaten the .357
Minor point but the FBI/Dade shoot out involved the Ruger Mini-14, not AK-47. Another point, this is from the Wiki on the subject; There is a persistent myth that the 10mm's sharp recoil proved too much for most agents to control effectively, and a special reduced velocity loading was developed; commonly referred to as the "10 mm Lite" or "10 mm FBI". However the FBI developed its reduced velocity 10mm cartridge before the 1076 pistol was developed to fire it. No agents were ever issued full power 10mm ammo because the reduced velocity ammo was developed before the FBI selected the 10mm cartridge.
@@CarryTrainerI seen a documentary about the North Hollywood bank robbery / shootout, that was absolutely insane and is a good example of why it is absurd to go woke on the police by taking their rifles away. It's absolutely ridiculous that it took almost an hour to end that shootout when there was only two active shooters. I'm pretty sure if those officers were allowed to have Patrol rifles, that would have ended very quickly.
If 380 were less expensive, and if more products were available in that round. I would buy something in it. There are police departments areound the world that use 380. For reasons. I think if people had instructors that approached the individual to help, rather than pushing what they think is best. More people would use the 380.
That’s a very easy answer. The cost! The 9mm cost way less than the other defense calibers. The law enforcement agencies are going to the 9mm for that very reason.
The 9mm “Paraplegic” is a barely adequate SD round (and only in high pressure +P with high tech projectiles). I’ve seen it take way too long to take effect. Popularity is due to it being cheap and plentiful because it is a NATO round. It has nothing to do with “performance” (or lack thereof) on determined homo sapiens. There are much better options out there….like 40/45. “There is no replacement for displacement”.
@@acquiredtaste5446 “There is no replacement for displacement” is actually a very accurate analogy. Bigger/more powerful rounds make bigger holes (displacement) and let more life juice out. “44 > 22”. Bigger is better.
It's unbelievably moronic to see people in the comments call old timer's fuds, when they talk about larger bore calibers like a 45 and effectiveness. Considering these are guys that have often seen real combat and killed people with these caliber and have experience with both 9mm and larger bore calibers, and yet, these young idiots want to come on here and and call them fuds and dismiss them when the closest they've come to any sort of combat is call of duty on an xbox or playstation..
@@CarryTrainer All handgun calibers, with the possible exception of SW 460 and 500s, etc., and even them, are only as effective as bullet placement, and in a chaotic high anxiety moment like a defense shooting, placing one just right is a pipe dream. I have only ever fired one shot in defense in 44+ years of ccw, against a dog attack on me and the missus. I don't even remember feeling the recoil or hearing the shot. It was close enough (inches) that it worked and we were unscathed. I was regularly shooting 100 yards off hand with 38s hitting clay targets set up on a sandbank. Plus local plate/bowling pin and running deer handgun shoots, and I won my fair share of them. Meaning I CAN shoot, at least better than the average Joe. Having more capacity is definitely a game changer. Plus I am 66 now and even my .45 all metal 1911 is a bit much for me both to shoot fast, and to carry these days.
I am an ER Doc, 25 years in trauma centers. Something to remember, in a fight, penetration is your friend, accurate shooting ends the threat. Over penetration is only the concern to those not involved in the fight. Good practice makes perfect. The true advantage to the 9mm is the cost per round. It’s cheaper, so you can practice more, felt recoil is less. If you can afford to train and a lot, bigger is better,no one has too much ammo in a fight. Your choice.
Well said doc, except the person holding that defensive firearm surely ought to be concerned about over penetration or better stated the path of each round.
exacly
Over penetration is extremely important. Some years ago, there was significant kickback because law officer rounds were over penetrating and injuring or killing innocent bystanders. It’s certainly important if you’re behind the intended target.
@@Thor45701 An ER Doc said to me that handguns make holes. Where the bullet hits along the way is the mystery.
Law enforcement and the government have gone 9mm for two reasons. Soft recoil and cost. It always comes down to the bottom line.
Personally I still own and use 40 s&w. Still a effective round.
More effective than 9
40 is better, and that's ballistically speaking...
Used a P10 as EDC, Sheriff's dept went to a G23 for duty 🤔tried it IWB. No more bricky than the 45, so I switched. 3 extra rounds/mag. Still hit with it. Because I was just out and about in decent casual dress I'm carrying 1911 lightweight Commander. As long as you hit, carry what you're comfortable with. I have a singlestack 9 for weddings and funerals.
All pistol rounds kind of suck unless they hit with over 600ftlbs. Revolvers suck with capacity, so you pretty much need at least 10mm to supplant a rifle. Otherwise the pistol is there to get you to a rifle. If you have any lesser calibers capacity is king.
@@desertsoldier41 357sig hits at 599 with a 124grain.
As a retired gunsmith and peace officer I will give my thoughts. Then the keyboard warriors can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
In Vietnam, I carried a 1911A1 in 45 Auto. It was effective in engaging the enemy. I came home after three years of combat.
Later, serving as a peace officer, I was engaged in three shootings using a big S&W mod 28 357mag. Managed to walk away from them all. Ok, those are my experiences in combat.
As a gunsmith specializing in combat handguns, the .357mag, 38spl +P, and 45 Auto all performed well in armed conflicts with criminals. But one thing I've noticed in people, not weapons. Fads, marketing, and increasing sales. MONEY!
I can go hunt anything in N. America with a .30'06 Springfield and be successful. But there's dozens of gunmakers that'll offer well over 50 others calibers saying they're better. Why? Easy. MONEY!
I'll be blunt. The 9mm is the "it" caliber because they (gun makers and ammo companies) say so. The entire industry has promoted it simply to generate the most profits from the easily persuaded public. People are easily manipulated by image and hype. One has a Camero, the other's in a Corvette. Who's cooler? You be the judge. Not me.
Fads come and go. 1930s to 1950s the 38spl was king. 1960s to 1980s it was the 357mag. 1980s to 2000 the 1911 was hotrod stuff. Today, it's the 9mm in plastic striker fire weapons. Fads and marketing. It's simple as that.
As for me, an old cop and gunsmith? I'm past 70. I'm old and cantankerous to boot. I shoot hogs, coyotes, and other varmints in my woods with an 1873 design 45 Colt in a Single Action Army revolver. Why? I don't follow fads. I believe in what works for me.😏
I would agree. 9mm is popular because it's less expensive. It's certainly not as good as 45 ACP or either of the .357s for defense.
in a private citizen context there are no more losses in gun fights with a 22lr then a 9 mm, its less about the caliber and more about the operator of the gun, even claude werner can show this, so your going by feelings and what you here from non verified sources or sources that cherry pic stats to fit their bias
I respect your opinion sir and thank you for your service, However Your individual experience doesn’t make the Rule. The reason why 9mm is superior is due to multiple factors, High fps is good for Hitting targets that are constantly moving and ducking in and out of cover, Low recoil allows you to stay on target more effectively and make more consistent follow up shots, More rounds at one’s disposal typically wins battles especially if the users skill and shot placement and knowledge of Anatomy is all at a basic level then that will be more than viable to be more than effective in most small arms fire engagements.
@@hocusstrokus no facts to support your claims, its more the operator then caliber proven by researcher like claude werner who has factual data bases showing its less about caliber in final outcomes despite one having a caliber having more power then the other so your going off on non factual claims, your argument is about power and not final outcomes
@@hocusstrokus the 9mm is not superior. It's ok. That's it.
Thanks for the video.
I don't mean to be picky, but I wanted to point out a few details of the 1986 Miami shootout that may be a little different from what you stated. I've always heard that the bank robber who had been a Green Beret in Vietnam was armed with a Ruger Mini-14 and not an AK-47. I'm fairly confident in that detail. The FBI agents were armed with several types of handgun. Three of them were armed with .357 Magnum or .38 Special revolvers. I've heard that all of those agents were carrying .38 Special +P ammunition, but I'm less certain of that fact. One agent was carrying a shotgun as his primary weapon. At the end of the shooting, he used a revolver chambered either in .38 Special or .357 Magnum. One agent lost control of his gun and never fired. Three agents were shooting 9mm pistols with Winchester Silvertip ammunition.
I first started looking at firearms seriously in 1992, and the magazines of that time were constantly running articles about the 1986 Miami shootout. At the time, I just took everything that they said as the truth or close enough to the truth. I picked up many of the attitudes and thought processes that the firearms community had at the time.
Since that time, I've spent a career as an engineer with a huge amount of experience in failure analysis and root cause analysis. That career has involved looking at evidence and how things happen. Most of my work was on the technical side of things, but I've also looked at human factors issues as well. These life experiences have caused me to look at armed self-defense differently. Much of life is an exercise in probabilities. Planning for every eventuality is not often practical, so we have to use our resources to mitigate what is likely and then consider what additional steps can mitigate some of the unlikely outcomes at a reasonable cost.
Without going into too many details, I believe that there will be an element of chance in every shot. No matter how perfectly we aim the gun, each shot will vary a little bit. No matter how perfectly we aim the gun, the attacker will likely be moving. Wherever a defender was aiming as he (or she) started to pull the trigger, a different spot will be aligned with the barrel when the shot is fired. No amount of perfection in the defender's actions can change the fact that the bullet might not end up hitting the attacker ideally. Small differences in where the bullet hits can have big differences in how quickly the attacker stops. I think that these differences will be more important than the differences between different calibers. Because of that, I no longer see arguments over the efficacy of different calibers as meaningful. People might have fun arguing, but on a practical level, I don't see any difference in the big four self-defense calibers (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 Magnum).
One factor that I'd like to see considered in evaluating shooting data is the difference between citizen shootings and law enforcement shootings. I suspect that citizen shootings involve a psychological factor that could be important. When a criminal tries to attack a citizen and the citizen shoots the criminal, the criminal will realize that his best chance of survival is to flee. The citizen has no obligation to arrest the criminal. While some people will become angry and want to keep fighting the criminal, most citizens will want to escape. A criminal should know that he can avoid being shot by running away. On the other hand, a law enforcement officer who is shooting a criminal is probably having to shoot because he also has to arrest the criminal. If the criminal runs away, he will continue to pursue the criminal. In that scenario, the criminal can't just end the situation by stopping the attack. The criminal will feel a greater need to stop the officer. I suspect that this difference means that a citizen is more likely to get a "psychological stop" than a law enforcement officer is.
Because I hold this belief, I don't feel a need to buy the fanciest self-defense ammunition. I feel confident enough in any reasonable hollowpoint ammunition. I believe that if I hit the attacker anywhere in the "9 ring" with a good hollowpoint bullet, I have a pretty good chance of surviving the attack. In some cases, the attacker will continue, but in many cases, that hit will give me a "psychological stop" that will keep me from suffering further injury. Out of 1000 scenarios where I would have to fire a handgun in self-defense, I believe that only one or less than one will have a different outcome if I have some fancy self-defense ammunition compared to a "regular" hollowpoint. I'm not going to worry much about changing the outcome in this one in a thousand or less than one in a thousand scenario.
I decided to join the modern world and buy a pistol instead of just owning revolvers around 2005. At that time, I had already largely decided that the important self-defense pistol calibers were 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. When I was choosing among them, the final factor was bullet weight for carrying. While 9mm comes in many weights, I generally think of 9mm bullets as being 124 grains and that bullet weight as being the only really important part in differentiating cartridge weight. I thought of .40 S&W as being 180 grains and .45 ACP as being 220 or 230 grains. Again, each cartridge will weigh a little more, but the big factor is bullet weight. I decided that per pound of cartridges carried on my back, I could have twice as many shots of 9mm as .45 ACP. The advantage over .40 S&W wasn't as dramatic, but the advantage still fell to the 9mm. For most situations, the weight difference of ammunition isn't important, but I let myself be influenced by that factor.
In hindsight, I should have come to the same decision for different reasons. Per round, 9mm will probably always be less expensive than .40 S&W or .45 ACP. Less expensive ammo means more practice for the same ammo cost. More practice is always better if the practice is effective practice, and simply changing caliber won't make ineffective practice into effective practice.
I'm at the point in life where I'm not really going to criticize anyone over the choice of self-defense caliber. If someone uses a firearm for legitimate self-defense and puts all bullets into the attacker without hitting any bystanders downrange, I applaud that person. I like 9mm for myself. If I win the lottery, I'm going to have 9mm plus .327 Federal Magnum, .380 ACP, 9mm Makarov, .40 S&W, 10mm, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 Colt, and .45 ACP. Until then, I'm happy enough with 9mm, .38 Special, and .357 Magnum.
In 1994 I found 2 Black Teens inside of my car when I came out of work. I yelled at them (not smart) and they pulled out knives. I pulled a .380 Sigma and they ran away. Got attacked at a pay phone in Detroit after a Red Wings game. Pulled my EL 950bs and they ran away. Girl next door scared out of her mind, dude told me to go away, pulled my LH9 and HE went away (fast). Sitting in Denny's and heard 3 Teens talking about robbing me, opened my coat and showed them and they left quick. I have been very blessed not to have spent my life in prison.
Ever think about moving? 😂
Agree. Think about finding a better place to live.
@@Jason_The_Man That was my thought.
You live in a rough neighborhood.
I find it great you never had to fire a shot - and I salute you - you had the wisdom to actually CARRY your gun and brandish it ONLY WHEN NEEDED...and also blessed with not having to fire a shot !!! The other amazing thing is the amount of anti gun idiots that fail to acknowledge just how many THOUSANDS of times JUST SHOWING a firearm STOPS a crime or even a murder. These stats and situations are NEVER mentioned by the artist- I am glad you've reminded us of this important aspect of concealed carry for good citizens... thanks for sharing your accounts with us.
9mm is good, but as a smaller-than-average man who is getting up in years, I'll stick to my .380 pistols.
Great presentation !! Great history on the 9mm cartridge and why it is the preferred ammunition the world over. In my law enforcement career I used 38, 357 and then 9mm. What a game changer from using speed loaders and then magazines !!!! I have tried many brands and still prefer Federal HST 124 or 147 gr for my carry weapon. And you are correct you need to train, train and train and shot placement is critical, but having 12+ rounds is also nice.
❤
Great video! I appreciate the fact you didn’t dog the other calibers, you made the point several times that accuracy is the key with any caliber. I remain I diehard .40 cal. man in a G23 with a few of my personal mods of my own. Thanks for your input!
A great gun, I've a few.
@ I think so too! I put some different springs in my to help with the trigger pull. I take a Dremmel tool and round off the trigger guard and under cut the grip to get a higher purchase on the grip. I like the Glock grip angle and the recoil in my opinion is not a problem ( with practice of course) and most of the new technology in 9mm defense is being applied to .40 cal. too so I can’t see no advantages in 9mm in wound ballistics. True 9mm is softer shooting and has more capacity but I still believe.40 cal. is a better defense round.
@@jimmiewilliams8271 You guys should really try M&P 2.0 in 40sw/357sig. I mean if you don't like the trigger, there are tons of options. I just bought a 3D printed strait trigger for $30.00, just the shoe, I love it.
I usually install a semi curved polymer Apex shoe. $70.00.
I you feel the grip is to rough;
there are 3 or 4 companies that make rubber stick on grips.
"Hand All" is my go to.
Point is: recoil impulse is the best in the polymer pistol game. "Turkeys Opinion" did a limp wrist test and could not get the M&P to malfunction.
I was Glock and or HK man for many years; 9mm. shoots flatter out of the Smiths as well.
For a given frontal area of a bullet, there is going to be an optimum powder load that insures reliable expansion of the bullet. 9 x 19 mm does that fairly well and so does 10 MM. If you are 6' 6" 300 lbs of all muscle a 10 mm pistol may be just right for you. For the average person a 9 x 19 pistol is probably the best compromise. For a 90 lb woman or an old man with arthritic hands, a 9 x 19 may be too much. Here is where a .30 Super Carry may be ideal if the powder load is reduced enough to make it easier to shoot, but still have sufficient velocity to insure reliable bullet expansion. It wouldn't be quite as effective s a 10 mm or a 9 x 19, but the person could shoot it effectively and have a few extra rounds in the magazine to make up for the loss of firepower. The problem with .45 ACP is that it is an UNDERPOWERED round. Increase the shell case length to include more gunpowder and you would have an EXTREMELY effective cartridge, provided that you had the hand strength to shoot it.
Regarding 0:14, the 9mm Luger is also known as the 9×19mm Parabellum. Para bellum comes from the Latin proverb, "Si vis pacem, para bellum" which means If you want peace, prepare for war.
Didn't the 9mm evolve from the bottle necked 7.62x25 Mauser round?
We currently carry .25acp, fmj loaded...everyday means everyday (rule #1, have a gun, applies), and in our specific circumstance it is adequate...we bear in mind that retreat is often a viable option, and that blowing up the bad guy is not requisite...the .45 is in the safe, too big and heavy for EDC, the .38s now on HD duty...we haven't owned a 9mm pistol in over 10 years, imagine that...
The caliber debate is alway intriguing to me. Most conclude the argument by saying more is better. You can load more 9s than other calibers into the handgun. But living in California, it’s hard to go with that analogy. Regardless of caliber, you can only hold 10 rounds. So with that in mind, I say carry the largest caliber you can accurately shoot. The capacity limitations completely remove the number one benefit I always hear.
Weight is a solid consideration as well
So true. I live in Cali also..For me It came down to 10 rounds of .45 or 10 rounds of 9mm...
@thomaseynon6205
I had forgone capacity benefits long before the same magazine restrictions were enacted here in Washington State.
There are literally dozens of videos on youtube showing assailants taking multiple 9mm rounds and still continuing to kill others.
@eternalmercenary463 there is just as much data as dudes taking other calibers as well
@@eternalmercenary4639mm. will never be a round( out of a handgun) that produces one shot stops. In the 80s, 357mag was replaced by 38spl +p because of politics and optics. Surgeons and EMTs complained about the mess 125grn. semi jacketed hollow points made in the thoratic cavity.
357mag. did and will cause a pressure "bubble" in the chest. Water( or blood) cannot be compressed, only displaced. The 357mag bullet would instantly flatten and spread the vector of energy out and squash thoratic blood vessels. Viens and arteries can only flow in one direction due to tiny valves along the way. Viens slam shut and arteries purge blood to the brain and burst small capillaries. This is nothing but a brain bleed concussion. The 125grn sjhp sheds lead and usually ends up weighing around 90 grains with about 9 inches of penatration in 20% ballistic gel.
40sw. 135/150grn. @ 1325/1400fps and 357SIG
90/125grn. @ 1400/1600fps. are capable of instant incapacitation or one shot stops.
I have several M&P 2.0 pistols in 40sw. that have 357SIG and 9mm. conversion barrels and springs.
It makes sense why FBI, gun and ammo manufacturers push 9mm. and watered down 10mm.
( they don't convert, huh?)
Money money money......... The hottest 9mm.+p+ can barely touch 500ft.lbs energy.
My Grand Power QS1 is the smallest pistol I would fire those silly over pressured rounds through and still would not get but 450ft.lbs energy.
I like it because it is a heck of a lot cheaper than other ammo, so I can train more. Sometimes I carry a 9mm, sometimes I carry a .38. But the 9mm gets a lot more range time than the .38 because of cost.
357 SIG BABY YEAH !!!!!!!
Perhaps the best there is.
A man's got to know his limitations.
357 SIG 🔥🔥🔥
Ammo scarcity and price for the gun. These are the only 2 arguments against the 357sig. Great caliber.
I want to, but in a defensive shooting I don't want to blow my ears out.
Why 9mm Luger… Easy answer. Cheap as f…, just capable enough to let beancounters and marketeers hoodwink the users and it’s sooooo inclusive. Even a 110 pound small framed person can shoot it with some fundamentals.
Well done, couldn't have been put in a better way. When we used to build Hot rods we would always say there is no substitute for cubic inches. Well there's also no substitute for a larger round. That's like saying a morter is better than a cannon. Bigger round = bigger wound = better chance of hitting a vital = more damage & terminal shock. In addition a 45 acp or 40 S&W will not have the tendency to over penetrate like a 9mm because it is going so fast. They have the tendency to dump all of their energy into the target, and isn't that what you want???? Now, any pistol round should be shot out of a proper platform to get proper ballistic performance, especially 9mm. Nothing under 5 inches in length otherwise 9 times out of 10 you will not get consistent hollow point expansion. This is why the 9mm +p exists to compensate for this shortcoming. Most carry 9mm's are 4" or under in barrel length. The nine millimeters optimized for a five inch and above barrel in standatd ammunition otherwise you need a +p to compensate to push it to the velocities for proper expansion / performance. You do not have these Limitations with a larger caliber round so much simply because the round is already larger doesn't need to expand. In addition in most cases will not overpenetrate dumping all of its energy into the intended target. Now people can argue and they can throw any kind of word salad in there they want to justify their argument but at the end of the day the numbers never lie. I like the 9 For its international and military standardization and that's it. If i'm choosing that it's a logistical choice. Same goes with weapon selection but that's another topic for another time. 9's not a bad round it's just not all what the spinmasters crack it up to be.
@@nikos6220 Not to mention,
if the FBI cons America into 9mm.; the less likelihood of their agents getting shot at by anything faster/bigger.
135/155grn. 40sw. at 1300/1400fps. are great out of short barrels. A Shield or 3.6"
M&P 2.0 sub compact can really deliver instant incapacitation.
My Grandpa was a beat cop, then detective in the 40s-60s. He carried a Colt .38 Special.
I appreciate the presentation, although you made a couple of errors regarding the Miami 1986 shootout. No agents were firing .357 magnum, their revolvers were loaded with 38+p. Agent Dove fired a 9mm Silvertip 115 gr into Platt. A 45 acp hardball or a .357 magnum would more than likely have penetrated through Platt's heart and caused enough damage to prevent him from executing the other agents. In my opinion, that is the lesson. I defer to Dr. Martin Fackler's conclusions that the most important aspect of bullet performance is penetration, second the size of the wound, and third don't depend on an expanding bullet. Modern bullet technology might usurp the third aspect but not the first two. I agree with your conclusion though, and as a firearm instructor I recommend 9mm as a compromise for many people. I choose to carry 45acp, although there is a time and place for a small 9mm with the right ammo - HST or Critical Duty.
HST 124 or 147 !!
@@richardsmith4187 Pretty sure the 124 has the correct balance of speed and penetration versus the 147 which has less speed and shallower depth when compared to 124. I would choose 124 to carry but wouldn’t want to be hit with either.
@WarriorServantofYah it's very dependent on many variables. A certain grain bullet in itself isn't "better".
@@WarriorServantofYahThe 147 would actually produce more penetration, and less expansion. Although slower, it will penetrate further, due to that less expansion.
@richardsmith4187 from the testing I've seen, critical duty/defense is usually more reliable in different scenarios than Golddot or HST.
Very well said and explained …
I carry a G19.3 daily 15 and 1 w a second magazine in the pocket .. 2 more g17mags in each vehicle and have had a Glock of one type or another since 1992 ..
SemperFi
Many may ask why talk about .38 or .357 caliber when the main subject is about the 9mm Lugar. Convert everything to fractions of an inch for a clear comparison. Sizes of ammunition is measured in both Metric or
Imperial. The .45-apc is an inch measurement. The 9mm Lugar is a metric size.
A .38-special bullet is .357". The 9mm Lugar bullet is .355" which are very close measurements.
As far as effficacy, anything beyond a .22lr is a good defensive round as long as the hit is in the proper spot, but I digress.
Used SuperVel products for years. First heard of them from a Mas Ayoob book (or article) and been using ever since. They were a BIG help during COVID keeping me stocked enough for regular practice and semiannual training. Great people. If you run across a problem with one of their products, they are on top of it helping to troubleshoot. I had a Beretta that was getting light strikes and jams with any mag, so I asked SV if anyone else had any complaints. They provided all kinds of advice to figure it out, but it turned out to be a light hammer and a recoil spring. Never had a problem since I changed them. Point being is they stand behind their products so they have me as a customer for life. I go elsewhere only when they don’t product something I need, like 7.62 NATO, 7.62X39, or .303 British.
Ballistics has come a long way. I carry a 9mm, and I'm very confident it will do its job. I have also praticed with it until I'm fast enough, and very accurate. He's right about accuracy. Rounds on target is number 1.
What a great discussion! The endless debate about what round is best... I'm an old retired Army E8, Abn Inf, and a few Aviation MOS. Combat tour in RVN [Air Cavalry].
I'm glad you interjected all the other factors that come into play about stopping the threat. Composure under fire, round placement, and so forth.
The Germans hated the Webley MK VI .455 that was used by the British Empire.
The slow 265 grain bullet was very effective.
Tim had a G26 9mm as backup. He had a few rounds left in his G21. The final three shots were headshots that ended the gun fight.
The skipping rounds are taught in advanced Police training.
Mas Ayoob has an interview with Tim.
I've interviewed Tim twice, BTW. He's a pal
The whole shootout had lasted 56 seconds, Gramins said. The assailant had fired 21 rounds from his two handguns. Inexplicably - but fortunately - he had not attempted to employ an SKS semi-automatic rifle that was lying on his front seat ready to go.
Gramins had discharged 33 rounds. Four remained in his magazine.
@ Did he run out of ammo in his G21?
Always a delight to listen to you man, thank you for taking the time to teach us dude.
I really enjoyed this style of content from you. However, I just want to point out one misunderstanding that you spoke on caliber-wise. The 38 caliber was the more anemic round as 38 Long Colt in the Philippines, not the 38 Special. These two rounds are often confused and misunderstood. As this may be a bit confusing I will use a fast source such as Wiki to describe it faster than my perhaps long-winded otherwise explanation. I also just want to say I hope you make more of these, I am a history lover and enjoy this video.
The .38 Special was designed and produced in 1898 to be a higher-velocity round, with better penetration properties than the .38 Long Colt that was in government service in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War. The .38 Long Colt revolver round would not penetrate the shields of the insurgent Philippine Moro warriors, and the government contracted with Smith & Wesson for a new revolver round. The .38 Special held a minimum of 21 grains of black powder, 3 grains more than the then-current .38 Long Colt, and muzzle velocity (with a 158 grain bullet) was 100-150 feet per second greater. - Source :Wiki
The 1986 Miami Dade shootout consisted of FBI that used 357, 9x19 and 38 special along with a 12 gauge. The two suspects used the Mini 14, a 12 gauge and a 357. This is like you said why they tried the 10mm after this incident even though the first shot on one of the suspects, Michael Lee Platt was fatally with the 9x19 in the start of the fight. However, it did not stop him from continuing to fight. Shot placement is key as you touched on later even in this video. However, the 10mm was not continued with the FBI due to sales contracts with Smith and Wesson. The result of not using 10mm was due to a firearm purchase contract. The qualifications were actually good. The biggest issue with the 1986 shootout is the FBI agents were undertrained, and faced of two military veterans who were trained, Platt was Airborne and became an MP, and Matix was a marine who enlisted in the army and became an MP where they both had met.
I only write this as I just don't want some misconceptions of history to exist if they can be corrected now. The point of your video however I enjoyed.
If you run the numbers concerning ballistics, recoil impulse, firearm size and reliability, the 357 sig is the best commercially produced semi automatic pistol round…. Period. Tho I’ll admit I’d hate to have live on the difference between most modern semi auto loadings.
Pretty disingenuous when you consider Miami-Dade wasn't as the FBI says a failure of pistol caliber. It was a failure of marksmanship first and them a failure in preparation ( Paul Harrell). The criminals were hit with 1 x 9mm and 2 x 38, until the end when an agent killed both of them with his .357.
The proof that the FBI ran a cover-up, to hide their failure of marksmanship. with their "outgunned" explanation is the fact that they are back to carrying 9mm.
It's so simple, it's stupid.
Tactics were their failure. Taking pistols to a rifle fight is always a losing proposition.
Discovering what penetration is required for a fight stopping was a good takeaway
@@rustwins4442 They had a rifle in another car in stake out group but they were too far from the gunfight to take part in time. There is a book out by Ed Mireles : FBI Miami Firefight: Five Minutes That Changed The Bureau. This book breaks it down well.
Agent Ed Mirelis also used a pump action shotgun in the fight. I believe he ran the shotgun one hand for the other arm had been rendered useless from gun fire.
That and the 1 round that didn't stop the fight.
Good video brother. Well presented and dictated. Appreciate your focus.
Thank you sir
Most of the time a pistol stops an attacker with a psychological stop it's hard to worry about anyone but yourself when you have a hole going in your front and coming out the back
Are you saying most people stopped during a violent encounter by a pistol, stop because of psychological reasons?
The momentum of history and economics. It will be around for a long time, like teaspoons.
It just works
Enjoyed hearing some history on this.
I’m 80 years old. I agree 100%. My carry gun from here to the grave is a Glock 19. Plus a j frame 38 hammer less in a jacket pocket.
Right on😅
Thanks for the video. Super Vel is an awesome company and never had any issues with their 9mm practice loads! Be well sir.
Thank you Sir! Enjoyed the video. Merry Christmas to you and yours!
The 9mm bullet is great when loaded in the 357 sig. Handloading that cartridge has a negligible cost over 9mm luger for much greater performance.
40 is NOT hard on guns MADE to shoot 40. GLOCK made 40 caliber guns based on 9mm frames. They broke. By choosing 40 instead of 9mm, I lose ONE round of capacity but gain larger holes on my target. I don't carry a Glock. I carry an H&K P2000 which was actually designed to handle the power of 40 S&W.
If .40 was hard on handguns, they would be no way they could make a 10mm that wouldn't break extremely quickly. Some of these handguns can handle borderline rifle cartridge pressures along as it was originally designed to do so. Lazy engineering to save money is what gave the 40 a bad reputation.
It's funny they dont say this about 9mm +p+ yet a .40 in Sammi range is hard on guns 🤣🤣
@@Lexicologist1971 M&P 2.0 in 40 SMITH AND WESSON.
Makes sense that the M&P was designed around the cartridge with their name on it.
Glock stole 40sw rounds while on a factory tour( dirt bag)
they then( as you stated) shoved a 40sw. barrel into a G17 and called it a G22.
I have a 2000sk in 40sw as, M&P just handles the recoil impulse better.
The lighter Underwood or Double tap( Buffalo Bore is great but to damn expensive)
135/155grn. bullets will deliver
357mag terminal performance
(instant incapacitation), then again I do have a 3.6 and 5 inch KKM 357Sig barrels.
.40 is harder on guns than 9mm. That's not really something that can be argued against. More pressure = more wear and tear. Needs beefier springs, more frequent spring maintenance, more frequent barrel swaps, etc.
Nobody is saying that a gun can't handle a .40 just fine, but you can't say that it's not harder on guns.
Saying otherwise is like saying that +P ammo isn't harder on a gun than standard ammunition. It's just a silly thing to say.
And in most handgun platforms, you're losing more than 1 round by chambering up to .40.
@abettermind 40sw being harder on firearms due to higher cartridge pressure is a myth. Both cartridges operate at a maximum of 35,000 psi before becoming overpressure. 9mm has factory ammunition that can be +p and +p+ , which can operate operate at a max of about 42,000 psi, yet 40sw doesn't. Even the best +p+ 9mm ammunition is still 80 ft/lbf less powerful than the best
Shot placement 👍
Great Video!
Last I heard Evan was carrying a 9mm with Super Vel 90 gr ammo. In his "Handgun Stopping Power" books he found that the 9mm ball ammo had a 71% one shot stop rating. The better JHPs were around 90%.
"Velocity and expansion are variables! Mass and cross section are constants!" Colonel Jeff Cooper
Cooper lived in a time that bullet construction hadn't changed much in decades
@ Nothing you do to a minor caliber round is going to make it a major caliber! The legacy of the "Wonder nine" Is a lot of bullets sprayed, fewer bad guys hit, more innocents hit, property damage through the roof, and an 80% miss rate being called proof of the importance of magazine capacity! Worse, Niners now call any shooting where 1-3 rounds fired a bad shooting due to failure to msg dump
@ The .357 magnum remains the king of one shot stops! The nine will never dethrone the .357 due to Niners insisting on mag dumping! We do have bad guys dropping from single shots from the .357 SIG called bad shootings due to failure to mag dumping
Correction, during the Miami shoot out, law enforcement agencies did not use 357mag. They use 9mm and 38sp...
I commented about this elsewhere in the thread.
At the time, some of the FBI agents were issued the S&W Model 13 in .357 they carried 38 special +P rounds.
This video isn't about that shooting, there are hundreds of discussion on that topic.
Extremely good video with great information!
As an old a marine told my brother, "Big bullets make big holes". If you can handle it - 45 makes bigger holes than 9mm.
@tfbond8687 - Did you even watch the video? It is mind numbing how ignorant people become over the caliber debate. The size of the hole doesn't matter. He covered that as well. .45acp has proven no more effective than 9mm, .40 S&W, etc. It's not about the size of the hole. It's about putting as many bullets into a spot that matters as quickly as possible until the threat stops. Did you miss the part about the man shot 13 times by .45acp including a face shot. And he lived. The bullets were Hornady Critical defense. And before yoy say something like it could happen with 9mm too, yeah, probably so. What do you and all the other fill in the blank caliber fanboys not understand?
Thank you so much- yes it was super valuable to me!
I see that sneak in a commercial box of +p setting there. I have a question I guess. What barrel are they shooting that they advertise 1300 fps from their 115 gr hollow points on the box? The best I have seen is just over 1000, which is nowhere near the 1300 fps the claim. I've heard some guys test them, and see mid to high 900s. What are they using a 16 inch test barrel to show 1,300 fps?
The CorBon 115 gr 9mm goes 1260 fps from my G26 as chronoed by me. The Federal 9BPLE +P+ 115 gr goes 1350 fps from my G34.
The CorBon 115 gr loads goes 1515 fps from my 16 inch carbines. Best to chrono any loads you get in your pistols, just to be sure.
Very good information, thanks.
Awesome Mickey《☆》I usually carry my P365 with 13 rounds of 9mm but if I'm on my Motorcycle I like to carry my 38+P Bodyguard 5 shot revolver as it conceals better in my Leather jacket pocket. If I'm going somewhere that I know I'll have to leave my gun in the car I'll bring my NAA 22 Magnum 5 shot revolver as it would be the gun I'd care least about if it got stolen😁I'll never forget the Jared Reston story. I was working with his brother Rodney at the time. Jared was Very fortunate and I guess it taught me a lesson about Caliber effectiveness of the 45. I think the perp had a Glock that was chambered in 45. JSO was and still carries 40 S&W✌🏼😎☯️
Outstanding video and history lesson 👍
Got most pistol calibers but after years of carrying, shooting, drawing from concealment my real world carry is the Glock 26 Gen 5 because I shoot it more accurate and consistent than other guns I have . At end of day I'm more concerned about hitting what I'm aiming at and 26 fits the bill for me .
44 magnum "holy hog leg" 😂
😄
That's right 44 Magnum for two-legged and four-legged
You can have spare mags of 45 as well, one incedent of a 45 not working is a exception to the rule, it's not that a Glock 21 45 is bad, has nothing to do with that or ammo but the unfortunate ability to make good shot placements, everyone has a different response to a real threat despite training, the fight, freeze or flee kicks in with adrenaline, if you listen carefully Tim didn't blame it on the caliber or low capacity, he just thought 9 mm he would be more comfortable with, speer gold dot 230 grain I am very familiar with and 45 like anything else shot placement is key, also we have to rember the context is a police offer chasing to put cuff on, a private citizen in a gun fight with this guy only needs to defend while getting away or seeking cover, so although some private citizens incidences may mirror the police there are more differences then similarities, we have to be careful not to lump in police or military in the same context as a private citizens, it's the mission that drives the gear requirements says claude werner who like me crunch data bases on shooting and details but compartmentalize military, police and private citizens so we can get accurate study on what the data shows works from guns and ammo and more important is the operators actions behind gun and training, so many variables way beyond caliber that determines outcomes of gun fights, everyone has their pet variable like gun type, capacity, caliber, accuracy and many more so any fail of a caliber never rush to quickly to blame something rather then the person who is the operator of the weapon, for example the barreta 71 22 lr history you can read about dozens of guys with AK 47's taken out with a 22 lr, so proves it's less about caliber that all to often gets blammed when shot placement body chart from coroner shows dozens of roundcnot hitting the vitals, so when a person say even a 158 grain lead round nose didn't get the job done, let's see the chart and 1st shot to the last and what they hit and even is a guy is a well know cop you don't take a story at face value about a round not working, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence not matter ifvit massad ayoob telling the story or famous gun RUclips gurus or writers of books, making a book doesn't mean thing we're not bias based, cherry picked, straw dummy arguments or arguments of authority on a shooting subject with out providing detail and individual incidences for the public to look over and fact check, bob shasch cpd over 14 gun fights had no problem with a 45, so each cop is going to have there favorite and don't forget the 40 cal as well
After WWII the US Army tested the 38, 9, and 45 FMJ. RESULTS:
1. The special 9mm Parabellum case with a Cal 38 S&W bullet penetrated the M1 helmet at 50 yards, but not 60 yards.
2. The Winchester 9mm Parabellum (1,150 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 120 yards, but not at 130 yards.
3. The Canadian 9mm Parabellum (1,250 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, but due to lack of longer range facilities was not fired beyond this point.
4. The Cal .45 ammunition penetrated the helmet at 30 yards, but not at 35 yards.
CONCLUSION:
It is concluded that the Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition with the 1250 f/s velocity, had a longer range penetration power than any of the other ammunition tested.
Prepared By: L O Spaulding, Ordnance Engineer
H F Hawthorne, Ordnance Engineer
E W Hopkins, Head Ordnance Engineer
And that was that. Only took the Army another 40 years to make the switch.
That test is completely irrelevant.When it comes to wounding effect of the projectile on soft tissue
@nickdial8528 penetration is job one. Can't wound/kill it if you can't touch it. Why the 45 is virtually irrelevant in service use today. A smaller hole beats a bigger dent was and is the prevailing attitude. Why service rifles are not 45-70s anymore.
@@nickdial8528 It's very relevant to the big picture. A projectile has several jobs and job one is penetration. You can't wound it if you can't touch it. They decided a smaller hole was better than a bigger dent, more often than not all things considered. Why service rifles are not 45-70s anymore. OTOH you can get carried away in the other direction too. The 4.6/5.7 are good examples of that.
While I am a huge fan of the 40 S&W, I did recently a few months ago decide to switch to my 9mm to be my main EDC at least for my work carry and when I go to larger stores just because it is so much more affordable to train with it frequently, and my 40 S&W was retired as a carry gun and now serves as my home defense gun. I still bring it with me just to get a little bit of Trigger Time with it here and there but yeah, it just made all the sense in the world to me to go with the 9mm as my main EDC.
Imo .40 is objectively a better cartridge, but the affordability of 9mm is the deciding factor for me too. Plus these new micro 9s that are the size of single stack .380s but are double stack 9s
if you bother to carry a belt gun, make it a 460 Rowland, with 60 gr Liberty Arms solid copper hps, at 2400 fps from a 4" barrel. I use the "hand in pocket" start for its 2x faster ccw draw and hit time, so I carry a 9x21 pocket gun, 45 grs at 2200 fps, 500 ft lbs no more recoil than a hot 380 load. Animal tests prove it to be superior. to a 4" 357 with 125 gr jhp's, Not bad for something that looks just a wallet in a velcroed-in Kydex front pants pocket holster.
Got any videos up of you doing these things?
@@CarryTrainer there's no videos of the civil war, either. gonna pretend it didn't happen? I dont work for free.
What about the Barnes AMMO?
Thanks man. Happy holidays
It depends on where you put the pencil !
There in lies the truth and the issue
I would like to point out that the 9mm is more shootable for everyone. Old, young, big, small, or otherwise.
I'm just happy whatever I can get my hands on😅 now that you mentioned that super vel ammo. I'm having a hard time finding those damn things everywhere I go. Merry Christmas
from hand in pocket start, you can learn to sidestep as you draw and "beat the drop" of a man who's pointing a gun at you. it's twice as fast as any other CCW draw. With calibers heavier than 9mm, in a 16 oz, 6" long pocket gun, you wont get the sub .20 second repeat hits that can be had with the right 9mm load. Misses and poor hits are the rule in combat, not the exception and having more than one attacker is commonplace. You wont get sub .35 second repeat hits with a .357 snub and if the bullets are heavier than 125 grs, they wont expand reliably in lung tissue from a 2" barrel, either.
I'd rather get good at not getting caught in that position
@@CarryTrainer like that's special, right? like nobody ever got attacked that didn't ask for it?
Great video! I've often battled between 9mm and 5.7x28mm! It seems that i may just have to maintain both!
9mm with a full metal jacket is not very effective, but ammo technology has dramatically changed. There are now very high-velocity, very effective rounds available that cause devastating damage. Lehigh bullets, for example, are very high-velocity and, because of their design, cause great damage and have good penetration. I carry 9mm Winchester Ranger +P+ ammo, which is renamed Black Talon ammo. This ammo is high velocity and opens up into a nasty hollow point with sharp edges on the expanded bullet. Bullet placement is critical with any cartridge. It doesn't matter how many rounds are fired if you miss your target.
Isn't 9mm kurtz the .380?
Yes
This exact line of reasoning is why I carry 5.7; 23 rounds instead of 17..shoots flatter..further..with less recoil as well.
An awfully bulky package though
Yea they're g17 sized, more suited for owb or shoulder holsters i won't deny that. Psa is working on a g19 sized rock though so we'll see. It's also the perfect caliber if you're really into having a pistol and pcc combo and it's a very light and compact cartridge so it's great for "shtf"; it's only drawback is cost.
I still have original Super Vels
Me too!
.45 HST 230gr.
Maybe
From what I've heard here, my 1st video of yours, I imagine Paul Harrell would have enjoyed your company.
Sub'd
90% of the time, I carry 9mm. The other 10% of the time ,its a toss up between .357sig. and 10mm. The 10mm for self defense is hot. Like Buffalo Bore or Underwood 180gr. HPs. This is for winter carry. If the 9mm recoil is the max recoil for you. Then stay away from 10mm and .357 sig. Cartridge. 10mm and .357 sig. Cartridge costs more. 9mm since it's so popular is less $. Thanks Mickey for the education...😊
If you reload the .357 Sig cost just as much as 9mm to reload. About $180 per 1000 rounds.
The reason the military went to the 9mm was most other militaries in the world were using the 9mm so if a soldier ran out of ammo he could take some off a non-functioning body, like they couldn't take the firearm to for some reason, and to be able to carry more rounds that is also why the military went from 308 to 5.56 and look how well that worked out. The reason civilians went to the 9mm is that the military did as soon as the military went to that joke of a sidearm Beretta (Yes, let's go to war with a sidearm with an exposed barrel!?) from the 1911 everything was 9mm. (The Beretta did not win the competition to be the next firearm the Ruger P85 did but the politics chose the Beretta, a firearm at that time built in a communist country over an American-made gun should make you ask why?) People who like the 45 asked, (Why not make a double-stack 45?) The poor excuse given was it would not fit in the hand...
Caliber progression: military 38 police 38. When the military went to the 45, so did the police, and when the military went to the 9mm, so did the police... politics not effectiveness.
Because It's the NATO round nothing else
Excellent video.
Yes sir ❤from Pennsylvania
Ellifritz's data showed that 9mm failed to incapacitate about 13% of the time compared to only 9% with .357.
And 9mm averaged about 2.45 shots to stop someone compared to 1.7 shots for .357.
So 9mm took 44% more shots to succeed, and failed 44% more often.
In the FBI's public report on why it switched back to 9mm, it initially said it had the duty to issue its special agents the best performing ammo it could find, but ultimately it settled on what delivered merely sufficient performance because that is cheaper.
Love SueprVel! That's the only ammo I purchase anymore.
I have to learn to live with 9mm, due to ongoing nerve damage from my neck affecting my left arm and hand. Two handed grip is out. I'm getting a ported barrel for one .40 but have sold most of my magnum revolvers. Keeping one .45 Colt Blackhawk since I can load lighter rounds. Two .357s now have .38+p in them so they are good. I hate doing this but it can't be helped. 9mm it is. 😢. Oh the shame of it all. 😂
Same situation here, except right hand. Taken two years to rewire and learn to shoot left handed. 9mm is good for me.
"I love you man"
What is 38 super?
A 9mm in 115-124 grain at close range hit like a 357 magnum and their not terribly accurate but 147 grain bullets are deadly accurate,. so its a toss up power or Accuracy,.. basically in all pistol calibers,... but 44 and 45 seem to do very well.
In the 80's I had a 9mm then to me it was expensive, so I shot 38 special and 357 magnum.
I don't reload, but I didn't even know 9x19 had a tapered case.
It's ever so slight. That taper aids feeding and extraction. A very novel idea at the time.
Over 120 years later and they still can’t come up with a better round👊
They can. We did. People stopped buying it. Mostly because they have limp wrists.
@@sheldoniusRexAnd we even fixed that by making the cartridge a little shorter, and putting in a smaller frame. It only worked for 20 years or so as an absolutely fantastic caliber that law enforcement loved. And then all of a sudden, poof. The. FBI went to 9 mm because it was cheaper, and 40 went by the wayside. I still carry and love 40, I hope it makes a comeback when people come back to their senses.
Glad I found your channel, I just subbed. Awesome info. Head on a swivel. Stay safe.
Great video 😁👍
To me it comes down to price. 9mm is the cheapest pistol round because it is the most popular world wide. 147 grain +p is a heavy bullet moving at 1100+ fps.
Good presentation.
🤨 Love everything about the 9MM.! 🤔
Outstanding video.
What's the new defensive cartridge they just launched a while back? I can't even remember it. Oh yeah 30 Super Carry... Not a single comment about it here. Must be an awesome cartridge eh?
Thanks for the history lesson, boss!
Until we get the desired result.....that's the key!
Paul Harrel tested the new 9MM FBI load on his meat target. It would have failed the same as the Silver tip while the current .40 would have worked
The old meat target. There is a reason that science doesn't use meats. I do for fun testing, but a dead animal isn't the same as a live one.
@ Nobody has ever been attacked by a bowl of Jell-0 in any flavor! Only today's junk science would claim squirt gunning is superior! Only modern junk science would claim mag dumping with an 80% miss rate is a good shooting and proof of the importance of of magazine capacity
@ Anytime one invokes "Science" Like this, what they really mean is junk science
@ The .357 magnum remains the king of one shot stops and shall remain so for a very long time. 10MM or 7.5 BRNO might one day take the spot but since 9ners insist on nag dumping, the 9 will never threaten the .357
@@bernieeod57 I'm not sure where you got that data, but it's not in line with published stats. Care to share?
Minor point but the FBI/Dade shoot out involved the Ruger Mini-14, not AK-47.
Another point, this is from the Wiki on the subject;
There is a persistent myth that the 10mm's sharp recoil proved too much for most agents to control effectively, and a special reduced velocity loading was developed; commonly referred to as the "10 mm Lite" or "10 mm FBI". However the FBI developed its reduced velocity 10mm cartridge before the 1076 pistol was developed to fire it. No agents were ever issued full power 10mm ammo because the reduced velocity ammo was developed before the FBI selected the 10mm cartridge.
I was intending to mention the north Hollywood shootout in 1997. Negated to state it by name, thats where the ak was used. Thanks for the add.
@@CarryTrainerI seen a documentary about the North Hollywood bank robbery / shootout, that was absolutely insane and is a good example of why it is absurd to go woke on the police by taking their rifles away. It's absolutely ridiculous that it took almost an hour to end that shootout when there was only two active shooters. I'm pretty sure if those officers were allowed to have Patrol rifles, that would have ended very quickly.
The 9 sauerkraut
If 380 were less expensive, and if more products were available in that round. I would buy something in it.
There are police departments areound the world that use 380. For reasons.
I think if people had instructors that approached the individual to help, rather than pushing what they think is best. More people would use the 380.
Thanks Mickey
9mm is a back up. 40 or 10mm
9mm struggles in real world situations
Good job.....
That’s a very easy answer. The cost! The 9mm cost way less than the other defense calibers. The law enforcement agencies are going to the 9mm for that very reason.
The 9mm “Paraplegic” is a barely adequate SD round (and only in high pressure +P with high tech projectiles). I’ve seen it take way too long to take effect. Popularity is due to it being cheap and plentiful because it is a NATO round. It has nothing to do with “performance” (or lack thereof) on determined homo sapiens. There are much better options out there….like 40/45. “There is no replacement for displacement”.
Thank for the truth 😊
Where and when have you seen it take way too long to take effect?
@@kylehughes1619 Been an LEO in a major metro for 3 decades. Leave it there.
Bad analogy, there is a replacement for displacement, it’s called forced induction, replacing displacement is quite literally what it does.
@@acquiredtaste5446 “There is no replacement for displacement” is actually a very accurate analogy. Bigger/more powerful rounds make bigger holes (displacement) and let more life juice out. “44 > 22”. Bigger is better.
It's unbelievably moronic to see people in the comments call old timer's fuds, when they talk about larger bore calibers like a 45 and effectiveness.
Considering these are guys that have often seen real combat and killed people with these caliber and have experience with both 9mm and larger bore calibers, and yet, these young idiots want to come on here and and call them fuds and dismiss them when the closest they've come to any sort of combat is call of duty on an xbox or playstation..
I agree
Thank you for the video. The older I get, the more I prefer to listen to intelligence and experience rather than hype and hyperbole.
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
@@CarryTrainer All handgun calibers, with the possible exception of SW 460 and 500s, etc., and even them, are only as effective as bullet placement, and in a chaotic high anxiety moment like a defense shooting, placing one just right is a pipe dream. I have only ever fired one shot in defense in 44+ years of ccw, against a dog attack on me and the missus. I don't even remember feeling the recoil or hearing the shot. It was close enough (inches) that it worked and we were unscathed. I was regularly shooting 100 yards off hand with 38s hitting clay targets set up on a sandbank. Plus local plate/bowling pin and running deer handgun shoots, and I won my fair share of them. Meaning I CAN shoot, at least better than the average Joe. Having more capacity is definitely a game changer. Plus I am 66 now and even my .45 all metal 1911 is a bit much for me both to shoot fast, and to carry these days.
Who's mom?
shhhh your going make 9mm ammo go up in price again LOL
Hahaha
Literally just had this conversation with a guy a day ago. The pros of the 9mm far outweigh any cons of the round.