57 you say, but how many was a Fencing Duel? I mean anyone can build a fence, but it takes guts to duel, building against each other in all manner of haste and aggression
As a long life fencer: having a problem with fencing as a martial arts, is like having a problem with tennis as a wrong representation of shooting a bow and arrow. In other words, it doesn't make sense. I love fencing, and I completely respect that you were disappointed in it because you wanted something more real to life, not a sports activity. But no fencing teacher worth its weight is going to claim he/she will teach you a viable martial arts. If they do, find another teacher please. Can fencers gain inspiration from martial arts such as HEMA or kendo? Sure, they are completely free to do so, but that is only to broaden their fencing experience.
@@milewesler9592 Replace 'bow and arrow' with real tennis (i.e the style of tennis that Henry VIII would've played) and the OP's point still stands. Sure, it's an interesting game (I've even given it a go) and really fun in its own right, but it's not modern lawn tennis where having a massive serve is 70% of the game, you can bounce off walls and most of the game is actually about the 'chase' (which doesn't exist in the modern game). Source: I'm a 5.0 USTA and an aggressive noob at real tennis. Fencing is the lawn tennis equivalent of HEMA/martial art. Is it inspired by actual smallsword/saber techniques? Yup. Will practicing fencing make you better at using the actual weapons? Generally no, though there are some transferable skills (similar to lawn vs real tennis) -- I practice smallsword and rapier at a HEMA club in addition to olympic foil and most of my HEMA is just foil with a different coat of paint. The footwork, distance and parries carry over magnificently.
Your video reminds of several things I have experienced in the past. I too learned Olympic Fencing (OF) because I was interested in swords and there was no HEMA school near by. I came away with a great respect for OF. Yes, there are things in OF that are not realistic as you mention. You have to realize that allot of these rules were created before safety gear was readily available the way it is today. But overall, it will teach you allot and develop reflexes and corrdination. I have always incorporated many things that I leared in fencning even when learning Filipino knife fighting and they have worked very well. For example, in OF I was taught to always have my weapon infront of me and to have the point at the opponent. I guess I learned that from epee and foil fencning. I also learned the effectiveness of thrust. I would spar with allot of people in knife fighting and some of them were supposed to be very advanced students. They would do weird things with the grips, blades positioned not infront of them, and even moving the blades around. I know this sounds very arrogant but I ususally ended stabbing many of them with no problems: I just treated soemwhat like a OF match. Yes, there are some goofy rules in OF but if your techniques don't work then you don't win. That makes it very utilitarian. You are correct in that there are allot of people and schools who talk a good game but fall apart on the field. They have come up with some really dumb stuff that doesn't work. I think OF has allot to offer and with some adjustment, it can lend itself to some very practical technique.
I know competitive fencers sometimes sort of patronize HEMA folks, which is unfortunate. Speaking as a long time and very high level sport Sabre fencer, as well as a long time disciple of both German and Italian longsword, I cant hold my piece any longer. Metatron, and all other fellow HEMA folks- modern sport fencing is still very much fencing. The two biggest critiques I hear are “sport fencers aren’t afraid of being hit so long as they get there first” and the pistol grip complaint- more on that in a moment. In sport fencing, we have a concept called “right of way” (in foil and Sabre) which evolves from the historical idea of having to address an incoming attack before attacking in turn in order to increase one’s chance of survival. The goal is still to do everything one can to hit without being hit. That’s called a “one light” touch. It’s what we do our very best to achieve. That way there can be no question who scored. HEMA has the same issue. Even at the very highest levels currently available, the vast majority of modern HEMA fighters will always try to attack into an attack. I see this all the time with my club- I attack fast and from distance, in a straight cut, and yet ALL of my club mates will just swing right into me, rather than address my attack first. It’s so prevalent that you will see it happening just as commonly in high level HEMA as in sport fencing. So, please stop the critiques. Point two- the pistol grip. The pistol grip was designed originally for competitive foil and epee fencers to maximize the ergonomic potential of one’s hand to increase speed and tip precision aka “point control”. And it really does. The goal of sport fencing is to both: learn to fight, but also to compete against others and that means you have to train every part of yourself to be the fastest, most precise and most athletic you can be. It typically flows much faster than it looks, meaning that it also is usually moving much faster than most historical fencers (long sword excluded) typically move. At those speeds, and having to hit with a very small part of your sword, the extra precision allowed by the pistol grip makes all the world of difference. I had me reservations with it when I first saw it, but it really is a huge help at competitive speeds. Lastly- as to your training. Listen, I’m not gonna criticize the club you went to, but they should have started you with foil. The rules and techniques of it provide a very basic info to the other two disciplines. Most successful training programs follow this method and, as a former instructor myself, students of mine who began with foil always outperformed those who did not. I was a Sabre man myself, even made alternate on the US World Team in 2003. Sabre was the perfect fit for me as it’s all about speed and aggression, but without my basis in foil, I never could have gotten where I did. Sorry to rant, but sometimes both competitive and HEMA fencers get entirely too “high horse” about their respective disciplines and I figured my perspective as having spent my whole life studying both might shed some light here.
Perhaps my experience is too limited, but I haven't heard any claims of superiority from the sport fencer side. HEMA is simply too small for most people to have even heard of it, much less criticize. On the other hand, respect to you for your skills!
As a fellow fencer (though not on your level) I agree with nearly all of this except the right of way part. Yes it exists, but it doesn't encourage you to try and strike without getting hit, it just encourages you to strike first (or in a way where you have right of way). I mean even if parry and gain the right of way as a defender your not really deflecting the attack. Your just trying to tap their blade so that you can attack back and get the right of way. After you touch their blade to yours you don't care if they hit you, you just want to hit them as quick as you can before the lockout kicks in on the scorebox. Also, the pistol grip did make my hand hurt after extended sessions. It's just really awkward feeling, even if it does make point control a LITTLE easier.
Metatron does not seem to understand the advantages of learning fencing with a pistol grip as a beginner. Had he been just a little bit wiser he would have listened to his instructor and after a while would would have been able to make a more informed decision rather than pretend he knew what was better for him from the outset. When he knew a bit more about fencing *then* he might have decided to use a french grip (there are a number of valid reasons why its just detrimental for a beginner to start with one). Just because something is historical, it does not make for the best initial learning method.
The existence of the pistol grip shows the priority of fencing, sport. it is likely that he realized that it may be so sport oriented that it didn't provide the insight into swordplay he wanted and that his time was better spent elsewhere. In HEMA we talk all the time about what artifacts in the practice come about as a result of rules, equipment, and sparring partners. This practice helps us find ways to minimize these factors and get as close to the roots of the culture as possible. Metatron has no interest in fencing because he has little interest in sport as far as i can tell.
I do not know if You will see this, but just a thought: I am a national coach of Olympic Fencing with many years of experiance. From my point of view there is a high chance that your instructor was right: Womens epee it is a 50:50 decision if You should go for pistol or french grip men epee is more like 90% pistol 10% french. Men hit the blade much harder so You really need to be the type for the french grip. second: for french grip you are fencing much more out of the rythmus of your footwork (if you start late with fencing (and what I could see of your body type) it is hard to get to the point where you can outmaneuver your oponet with your superiour footwork). 3. from Your kendo & hema experiance you should be more used to "talk" with the blade then with your footwork. 4. it is strange to me that you refuse the pistol grip, the roman army was very open to modernasation and improcement
Contentious statement: Foil is a good basis for learning longsword. The stances are so different that your foil habits will hardly interfere with longsword at all. (they will interfere with rapier a bit more). Distance and timing carry over more or less seamlessly. The right of way system is quite similar to Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, and to Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter concepts. Foil will make your point control good enough to actually hit with your thrusts.
It certainly wouldn't hurt. I'd argue that doing foil for two years then doing longsword for two years won't make you as good as simply doing longsword for four years would, but if you can do both at the same time then yeah it's probably beneficial.
A few points as both a competitive fencer and a coach: Firstly it sounds like you had a REALLY old fashioned coach. I know that on the continent there is a long period of S&C, footwork etc. before you are allowed to fence, but here in the UK we get people fencing within their first hour! Secondly, I agree that epee is the best, however it doesn't sound like your coach explained the grips properly. The French grip and the Italian grip both give you less strength than the pistol or Belgian. The French grip is just straight and an Italian grip is straight with rings attached to the guard. As the pistol grip gives more strength, the Italian grip fell out of use (I think I've only seen one ever, and that was just an old one a club had for novelty value) but the French remained because of pommeling - holding the grip at the end (the pommel) to give extra reach to offset the disadvantage of reduced strength. You might have had more luck with a Russian grip (sort of a halfway between the two, like a French grip with stubs protruding to add control like a Visconti pistol) or a Belgian. Thirdly you can cut with a sabre, but like foil it has poxy priority rules. This basically means that if I attack you, you parry me and repost, we both hit at the same time then only you get the point. If we both attack at the same time no-one gets a point. You also can't hit the legs. Supposedly the sabre evolved from the cavalry weapon, which is why below the belt attacks are not valid, as it was bad form to hit your opponents horse. The epee evolved from the duelling weapon, and was to first blood, which is why attacks anywhere are valid. The cutting edge was taken off and the V shape added to create a lighter and therefore faster thrusting weapon. Foil was originally a training weapon to teach blade-work and is just silly. Lastly and good coach will teach you to not stop when you get the hit, but to carry on until you are told to stop or retreat in a way that protects you, as too often a fencer thinks they have gotten a hit, stopped and been hit themselves. I've seen it happen too often and is something you should have drilled out of you. Maybe fencers with a problem with this should try HEMA cross-training to wallop it out of them.
Mr Metatron. One thing i would like to mention mention is that Italy is one of the nations with the best fencers in the world, so perhaps your teacher is one of those who simply wanted to give her club medals and wins. Because my fencing-trainer is very passionate about the art of the sport, yet I have seen many trainers who can't seem to think about anything else than results. That will always make the experience of training fencing feel miserable.
Ho fatto 3 anni e mezzo di scherma e devo dire che mi è stata utilissima per imparare la posizione dei piedi per dare meno bersagli all'avversario cosa che sto utilizzando moltissimo nell'aikido e che mi sta permettendo di imparare sin da subito le tecniche senza dover usare molto tempo sui Hanmi, Kamae (soprattutto nell'utilizzo del bokken e del jo) e negli ashi-sabaki, credo che anche nella Hema possa essere utile il "footwork" (che bello quando conosci i concetti nell'inglese e li dimentichi in italiano). Per quanto riguarda invece il discorso del tempo rallentato nell'eseguire le tecniche nella Hema credo dipenda che all'inzio debba imparare ogni movimento correttamente e poi puoi svolgere le stesse tecniche alla massima velocità, come mi viene in quando praticavo scherma e le cavazioni le ho imparate al rallentatore, dopo un paio di mesi le facevo velocissimo, o come adesso nell'aikido che facevo l'Ikkyo molto lentamente ed ora inizio a farlo in maniera pulita e rapida, credo sia solo una questione di imparare bene all'inzio in modo corretto e poi di diventano automatismi, inoltre considerando che nella Hema (giustamente) non ci si uccide vicendevolmente, soprattutto agli inizi, per evitare impicci si procede più lentamente.
I fenced for 2 years in college and attending a few tournaments and I would say first an foremost to anyone thinking about trying it out is that you need to understand fencing is a sport, not a martial art. Metatron described foil fencing as a game, and that is exactly right. All of it is just a game, a fun game (in my opinion), but still just a game. No one in actual duel or battle or any combat situation would actual fight they way fencers do unless they were trying to commit suicide. So if you want to learn a martial art or self defense look elsewhere. If you want an alternative to basketball or soccer, give fencing a try.
That was my biggest turn off from fencing, the fact that it doesn’t matter if you get hit as long as you get the point. I remember wanting to treat it like a proper duel but you can’t, because the optimal play is to rush in and get the point first regardless of wether or not you were gonna get hit. It’s what made me stop fencing. I even got into playful arguments with my instructors (always respectful of course), telling them that that form of combat was less interesting to me and how much more fun it could be
Because fencing is a sport, we are not simulating duels. Also, I think epee, heck even foil if you learn counterattacks, good parry setups, both could be right up your alley. Sabre attacking is definitely favored heavily. Still, fencing is just a fun sport that has evolved off practicing with weapons over time, hema is for trying to do realistic historical(Though be warned in tournaments people can get weird)
Metatron, I'm about to celebrate 25 years of fencing this June. And I picked it up just to see what it was like, at a local YMCA. In answer to a few of your points. 1. You joined the wrong club with the wrong coach. She should very much have allowed you to use the French grip. 2. Foil is pretty much a very physical dance. The skill is tempered by the rules of Right Of Way (ROW). ROW was originally developed to keep young noblemen alive in duals. But it its application has been carried to ridiculous extremes, starting in the 1970s. Back in the 90s when I started, there was a time I thought the rule was the guy who pulls his arm "back" first and came running forward was the attacker. Since then it's been cleaned up, a little. 3. You didn't like the sword, aka Epee? I'm going to guess you were hoping it is more like the fencing you saw in the movies with Errol Flynn. Up until the late 70s it was probably a game you could get into, if not love. But since then the game has become far more physical. And the strategy, at least at the Olympic level, was driven by not attacking into the strong points of your opponents' game. A lot of that was driven by a Swede named Johan Harmenberg, who won the 1980 Olympics in Epee. Since then the fencers are simply driven to be faster, to overcome the opponents' technique with superior physical ability.
Foil fencing is actually the preeminent sword dueling style. Thinking foil fighting is a joke or just sport exposes ignorance and intellectual laziness. This is not typical for you, so I'm compelled to conclude it's due to irrational bias.
In Silat our Trainer hits us with a bamboo stick during training and sparring so we learn to concentrate and focus even with pain. Silat Suffian bela Diri - "no matter how good you are, you will get hit" and thats why we train to learn how to deal with being hit in a fight. When i asked why we train so little actual "hardening" the body against blows like i was used to in Karate my trainer said "you never know what attacks you and most likely your attacker has a knife. You can train to take hits from a fist but no matter how hard your muscles become, you can not take a blade so train to evade, block and not get hit. But if you get hit, and you will, you have to learn to focus"
The problem here is that fencing blades aren't thought of as swords within the sport. Call a foil or epee a sword and you'll be chewed out by instructors in a heartbeat. Also, the pistol grip is favored a little more by fencers in general because it gives them a lot more control without a grip that looks like it's made for two hands. Sure, with a French grip you can pommel to get more range from your blade, but I know that I always feels really wonky because there's so much more of a handle to work with when you've only got one hand on the thing. As far as the point about cutting in fencing, you can't really practice draw cuts or cuts that would have much depth to them. If you think of the forward flick cut that appears in Kendo, saber acts similarly, but with one hand. It's all really restrictive, which means you can't *really* cut, even if you get the motion down.
Seriously? There isn't a club by you? I mean I live in the middle of nowhere and I found a club I can get to often enough. Granted it's a 2 and a half hour drive but it's worth it.
There's a lot of boat traffic from sicily to the southern part of Calabria and so the rest of italy, but yes, not that comfortable thing to do many times a week. Also, not every one has the time to drive many times a week for several hours.
In school I practiced the epee and I became rather skilled with it, but my true love was always the saber, which I had the height and strength for, but not the sparring opponents in my high school club. As an aside I did use an Italian grip, but that might have been owing to the fact they're cheap, and our fencing club we started ourselves and was barely funded. What I like about the epee is that you can hit anywhere to the body, much as in a duel to blood, the highly restricted target areas of the others I don't feel is fully realistic. Now I realize historical sources are not clear on if debilitation or first blood was the common mode of duel but it IS clear that duels to death and nothing short were rare in the extreme. If a sword cuts your arm heavily or your hand or your leg, you're tapping out unless it's a duel to the death... which was exceedingly rare historically in a duel context. At the point I've hit bone on their shin or sliced up their forearm honor is satisfied and we'll end it there. Some period sources do specify duel to incapacitation and not first blood, but even then if I've driven a 8mm wide point clear to your shinbone, or cut your arm, or slid my sword up into the muscles along your forearm, or even the most hated Epee strike, the hit to the top of the foot-- you are incapacitated, whether by pain (there's a reason that shins , instep, and inner arms are strike points martial artists aim for) or by blood slicking your grip or by a sudden realization of your mortality brought on by the fact you are now bleeding all over your shirt. Likewise I always felt the "tempo" rules of the foil were fully unrealistic, if you are good enough to put your opponent on his heels and keep him there you will not allow him a counterstrike, no you will keep up pressure and shatter his nerve before puncturing his torso or face. So the saber and the epee get realism points there. My question about the video is that I was taught the target areas for saber were limited to what a long-sleeved shirt would cover, not the full body, I may be wrong however.
It'd be interesting to see the introduction of the pistol grip into a HEMA-like environment to see how it fairs against more traditional methods. As some form of retro science fiction or something.
There is a small amount (and I mean small) of carryover from Olympic sabre, some of it in basic attacks and some in basic footwork in HEMA saber fencing, at least in some styles. But there is a wide variety of saber fencing schools and techniques that depart greatly, so the crossover can be minimal. A major drawback of Olympic sabre vs HEMA saber is the use of the piste, it's too closed of an area and changes the possible angles of attack. Olympic sabre would be radically improved if a full circular combat stage were used, far more realistic, but then again, we would have to include attacks to the legs too. Your point about after-blows is spot on, and such a glaring area of fault in Olympic fencing that it decreases any martial realism to the point of being a game. I can see where there is a possibility that foil or epee could have some crossover with rapier or smallsword, but I'm not experienced with either to be able to render an opinion. Great video, I'm new to your channel from Skallagrim and Scholagladiatoria and have happily subscribed. Thank you.
+Metatron I'm going to do a response to this video in my channel. I understand that you speak spanish as well then i'm going to do it in that language because I could explain better my experience. If you think you could not understand me (and if you see this comment) please tell me as soon as you can to do my video in english.
You know I'm uploading the video right now but I'm feeling afraid of people start saying bad things about me or something and make me look like and idiot for my english or something I said. It's that normal? XD
Epee is combat and makes me feel like a thug... Sabre is perfect for theatrical fighting and makes me feel like a magnificient bastard. Foil is art for the sake of art and makes me feel like the fearie king, embodiment of grace and precision. My focus obviously lies on a different aspect of fencing than yours and I much, much preferred the latter two to just going in and starting to stab, trying to make my light light up first... epee is just kind of brutal, like a Wanderlei Silva led MMA training facility...
In Sweden you are not allowed too begin with sabre (sabel) or the rapier (värja) but must begin with foil (florett) because it has the most restrictive rules and the thinking is that if you gegin with that you can more easily pass to the other swords when youa re more experienced, but the ohter route is more difficult. Supposedly the restrictive nature of foil would make it easier for beginners. What you call the pistol grip we called the "handicap grip". Very few liked it here, and almost no one used it. Interesting to see that the philosophies differ so much within the same sport.
Christopher Silverberg I practiced foil at high level for many years and at high level you have to use the ergonomic grip. Otherwise you will not stand a chance against same level opponents.
foil is the only weapon DESIGNED as a training weapon (for an encounter not guided by any rules!). So (paradoxically) its rules emphasize the good habit of hitting w/o getting hit. for that epee is the worst of the three weapons.
Metatron I guess that is why, I was 10-12 years old, when I practiced fencing for about 2 years. I had a very good teacher though, Orvar Jönsson, who fought at the Olympics and who previously coached the national olympic team. Was probably a waste on me though since I was not that good. ;)
I also want to make a correction, the official name for the pistol grip was "orthopedic grip" but for us children we interpreted that as for handicapped people so no one wanted to use it, I saw rather few of the adults use it as well.
I think it’s a bit of a disservice giving this conclusion after only trying it for such a short time, as even if you train 3~4 times a week for a year one would still be considered a rookie that has yet to grasp the basic concept and very likely still haven’t developed the muscles to perform the correct actions. I only really grasped the concept behind Olympic fencing after three years of practicing foil, and that’s pretty much how long it took me to learn how to hold a foil properly(and to build up muscle strength). One thing I would change for teaching starters tho is I definitely would start them up with French grips, as it teaches them how to hold the grip correctly(yes, you’re supposed to hold them the same way) and inexperienced player often complain about pain or stress in their hands with pistols when it’s more them just holding it wrong. Also I think there’s a big misconception surrounding “right of way”, especially in regards of foil. It is true that RoW made it so the attacker only needs to land their hit, and the defender needs to hit without getting hit. Which might seem artificial and unfair at first, but in fact the odds of an attack getting through on the first attempt is very low, which gives avoiding hits a far higher priority and pretty much most of the double lights you see involves one side not being able to defend th selves properly, and loses point for it
hehe i started out similiar to you sadly my club only offered epee and foil and for starters...just foil. I also had no idea about hema back then, and definitely no club around so i stuck to foil, but it always bothered me and i was quite bad cause i thought realisticly. I aimed for hands and feet even though that gave no points, i always left the track as i tried to evade hits or strike from an unexpected angle. i parried a looot and always tried to bind the opponents blade before attacking myself to be risk free. So in my oppinion things that make you good at hema make you suck at fencing. I also ahd arguments with my 2 female instructors about the grip and the general idea to jump into someones blade to score a point by hitting a tenth of a second first and taking the opponents blade to the heart for hitting him n the shoulder quicker...well i also quit quite soon^^ But before that i got my french grip i argued that it gives me just a liiitle bit more reach
It has a use. As entertainment, as a sport, or just as physical exercise. Its not the same use it use to have but the same could be said of most swords. Soldiers dont use swords anymore but that dosent make them useless.
Usually I can go along with what he says and see the value of what he says but on the subject of fencing it seems like he had a fantasy in his head and when the sport was not as he expected it embittered him towards it all in general honestly it should be like everything and if it interests you give it a try dont take what he's saying off of his experience and apply it to you
Basically, I agree with you about the grip. When I trained, I used the Spanish grip which has since been outlawed in fencing. I never thought well of the pistol grip. I don't care if it does provide better control. Then again, I didn't care much for the French grip, either. It seemed too slim to properly grip well.
I practice HEMA and Olympic Epeé, I practice HEMA first and when I started Epeé I used the french grip against my coaches will, it turns out the pistol grip is better for a traditional swordfighting style that involves blade work, blade contact, and blade manipulation, I now fence only pistol grip and regret defying my coach.
Very interesting video! Metatron, I'd like to know more about unarmed martial arts during battles, maybe in western medieval times, or also in Japan culture during the centuries (that might be even more interesting). A comparison would be awesome too. Do you know something about the topic? I'm interested since I practice traditional Jujitsu (not the brazilian crappy modern one). Anyway I like all your videos, they always teach me something!
So you have less than a year experience in fencing yet think you are qualified to criticize Olympic level fencing? Did you compete during that time? Did you qualify for any ranking during that time? Kendo is no less watered down as a practice as fencing is. You are too young to even truly know anything about either.
You don't need do something for years to be able to criticise something about it, also competing isn't going to make his opinions less/more valid. Might want to drop the condescending end sentences as well, makes you seem like an arsehole and is unlikely to lead to a conversation worth having
Fencing is a sport that incorporates combat concepts. It is in no way supposed to simulate actual combat. That is why a touché to the tip of the foot is equivalent to one to the neck.
3:25 I am so offended man I have fenced for very long saying this makes me unsubscribe sorry man. Edit: 5:20 ok man I’m done with you come on, the pistol grip is better for so many reasons. You have better point control and grip, pressure attacks are much easier, and they are less of a hassle to hold!
I have some experience w/ Kendo. My Senpai has sparred quite a bit against numerous Kendoka from at least 1 or 2 Kendi schools and I interact w/ Kendoka and Sport Fencers on a regular basis as part of my job as a PE Teacher. I can say the skillset of learning Kendo doesn't necessarily transfer very well to HEMA at all. I think Matt Easton did mention that as well. My background in RBSD & Combatives as well as Shingen Ryu Battou Jutsu (Kenjutsu), Archipelago Combatives and HEMA has shown me that neither sport prepares you for any pracical fighting. Yes I consider Kendo as strictly a sport, not a Martial Art...
The closest thing to hema I have experienced is largo Mano Arnis/Escrima. I believe that Fma is unique, but has also retained much of traditional European blade technique. I enjoy your channel spore fencing is a fun activity for the young that has almost nothing to do with actual martial practice.
i always envisionned myself being able to realise 1 1/2 move before someone retaliate ( for exemple swing once, then recover and prepare for the next move, wether it be a parry or strike)
Another thing when I studied Judo after being a high school wrestler I had to relearn that my head is not used to parry with and the floor is not a mat. Sensei said I was from the Kamikaze School of Judo.
I feel like you don't fully understand that fencing'S goal and purpose isn't to represent historical duels and or try to replicate it, maybe it once was but not anymore. It is a sport, like basketball, tennis, and it has its own rules and techniques.
Don't shit on the foil, man, it feels freaking awesome wielding one and it is scary as hell to have one break in front of your ribcage because you stepped into the attack like a fool.
9:22 This was the problem I had with Martial Arts. When I was really young (Elementary) I was enrolled in Aikido. But I didnt like it. Because ti was just rolling and standing still while things happens. I know that it was jut beginning and that Martial Arts you learn very small first and then it evolves into actual fighting, but as a child I could not get into it because it was boring. Again, I don't mean to offend and Martial Arts Practitioners, but to an elementary schooler, it was very very very boring.
I started fencing at the recommendation of a HEMA practitioner that I met in Britain. The reason he recommended it as a starting point was because it would train my body to react quickly to sudden attacks and would give me basic ground work to build upon. I was very lucky that the instructor at my university was a man who would teach the competitive techniques, but also taught the original techniques and then explained why they fell out of use in competitive fencing. He also added Italian longsword into the cycle of classes that he does. In that class, one of the students asked what techniques would be allowed in a fight with longswords. His response was "Anything that works. If they leave their crotch unguarded, kick them there. If the come in to grapple, bite them if you have to. The techniques I'm teaching aren't to be used on the field of honor. This scenario would be that someone is coming at me with a sword and only one of us is walking away, and I'd use every dirty trick in the book to make sure it was me walking away."
Hi dude. This reply is just for the sake of achieving the closest we have to time travel. This was from 6 years ago, would love to hear how you are doing now.
The problem is not fencing as a sport, the problem was the mismatch between your interests and expectations and what Olympic fencing is. When people are trying to practice and prepare for tournaments and bouts, having someone complaining about the pistol grip being historically inaccurate is a distraction, which may have irritated your teacher. My college fencing club actually started explaining to new club members that fencing is an athletic sport and not historical simulation so that people who really want to do HEMA don't waste their time. I'm glad you found HEMA, but clearly, Olympic fencing is for you what golf is for me - a sport you don't like.
Golf is good! Honestly though, I kinda get the pistol grip complaints. Historical accuracy be damned, the idea of fencing with that just looks weird and weirdness takes away from the coolness of a sword. Still interested in fencing though
@@Stryfe52 For most people, pistol grips just work better for Olympic foil and epee fencing. If you actually start fencing, the grip will stop looking weird very quickly. French and Italian grips that don't look like the pistol grip are perfectly legal (or you can just fence saber where pistol grips are never used), and you can use them if you want, but there's a reason you'll find yourself in a small minority if you do. Fencers choose their equipment to maximize their chances of winning, and among fencers, nothing makes you look cooler than winning!
But there are literal olympic athletes especially in Epee that use french grip. So its kind of rude for the teacher to "block" using it. She can say that generally people prefer pistol grips for XY reasons but some use the french grip for XY reasons and that the pistol grip is considered "better". Then if he insist, let him use the french grip.
My math teacher in grade 8/9 was teaching us about multiplying polynomials, specifically through the FOIL technique (First Outside Inside Last). On the work sheet was a picture of a fencing sword! ... It was an epee.
***** Also, you didn't prove that it helped me solve problems outside of the classroom. The problems of polynomials and imaginary numbers and the like have never been in my life outside of the indoctrination center where they stole from my life to make me answer problems irrelevant to my life. Society stole from my life for no good reason.
***** Oh. One last point: Ballet helps kids to be healthy, so we should force them to take ballet classes. They are actually relevant for EVERY life since everyone needs health. Do you have a problem with forcing ballet? :-) With forcing video games on everyone, to be healthy or solve problems, respectively? Anyone who defends the system is an accomplice to theft of many months of millions of people's lives. Don't be an accomplice.
As someone who has fenced Sabre for six years, I can definitely confirm that fencing is not by any means a "sword fight." It is, like you said, a sport. Sadly, I think that going into it hoping that it would be more than that is probably why you ended up dropping it. Yes, there are a few practical uses of it, but it is far from what a lot of people hope it is when they start it. Many people end up dropping fencing once they realize this, however as someone who has stuck with it for many years I can assure you that in terms of strategy it does become more complicated, and new moves are introduced, but for the most part it just stays the (lovable) sport that it is. Besides for the screaming, which has become the plague of Sabre tournaments now (as the directors allow glass shattering screeching from the girls for some reason), I feel it is still a pretty rewarding sport to keep up with :)
Why fence only sabre? I do all 3 not competitively but for fun it's a lot better in my opinoin to do classical fencing and speed rounds then tournaments but that's just my opinoin I'd love to hear what you think and what's your favorite part of fencing my favorite part is making friends
I was a European fencer with epee for 12 years and switched to Kendo 16 years ago. I know both very well my accumulated experience is 28 years, so to say :). I participated in many European Worldcup Tournaments in fencing, in several European Championships in Kendo and I'm a go-dan now. In fact fencing helps a lot. But only much later not in the beginning. Movement and technique are very different but the tactical concepts are still very similar and you need the same killer instinct. But at the end it's always a "game". No blood, no kills. And that's a good thing.
Yes! Fencing teaches you how to measure distance like no other sport. As a 10 year nationally ranked fencer, I found that these skilled heavily carried over to my wrestling and boxing
I mean measure and all is fine, but neither of these sports put any value on defense really and thats where they fall flat. As in, no sport that ignores afterblows can come anywhere close to a fight.
You would have enjoyed sabre alot more. Pistol grip does not exist in sabre fencing, at least not that I have seen. You also get to slash as well as stab, which opens up alot of moves and more swinging motion. Look, fencing is a sport. View it the same way you would view boxing. Yea it will help in a sword fight against an untrained guy, but it would likely lose to just about every other sword style out there thats actually designed for combat. Fencing is not. It is a sport that evolved from combat into just that: a sport.
Aaron Paul I personally hate sabre fencing, did epee fencing for 8 years and at some point our clubs sabre fencers asked me to join them for practice so did that as well on the side for 2-3 years but I hated it so much that if you have a bad referee, the match will be horrible.. I know I might sound like I'm making up excuses but I just got the feeling that it's too much of a referee sport to decide who has the advantage in a situation.. At the point when referee feels like third participant in the match, it's all wrong.
Boxing is useful in hand to hand combat, just as TKD, Karate and other fully stand-up forms are. Perhaps more useful than the point sparring tournaments in the latter two that I mentioned, but in a real fight it is still incomplete. Only MMA, which incorporates boxing with the awareness and tactical understanding of the possibility of being pulled off of your feet, is a truly complete hand-to-hand combat system. Boxing has proven more effective and useful in recent years of MMA competition as boxers and kickboxers have become more rounded and skilled at defending against takedowns and capitalizing on the shortcomings of many grapplers who thought that they would alway be able to get away with only knowing grappling, but takedown defense requires a slight adjustment to the traditional boxing stance and style of defense. Boxing defense tends to focus on head and torso movement and without fear of takedowns, a good defensive boxer can frequently drop most of their weight to their back foot while avoiding combinations but in MMA, this opens you up for feinted takedown maneuvers. That's why even experienced boxers have learned to avoid this and slightly adjust their stance to remained prepared for takedown defense when fighting in MMA. Either that or be like Anderson Silva, who was so good with BJJ submissions from his back that he could carry a traditional boxing stance without concern since he could effectively defend and submit his opponent after a successful takedown.
lutin grognon Lol like you would beat a pro saber fencer. You couldn't even come closer to him. He would beat you on footwork alone. Of course fencing will give you a great advantage to a normal person, same as boxing. Give Szilagy a couple of weeks of training and I doubt even the best HEMA fighter could beat him
Roberto Calvo I realize how fencer talks like a ballerina, boasting how powerful their « footwork » are with their legs in tights. Well unfortunately historically fencing technique will be worse then useless in real fight, since all single hand swords were used along with shields, which make most of the fencing techniques redundant if not dangerous. Another popular weapon will be polearms like halberd which were heavier and longer reach then your sword making your moves suicidial. Not to mention they all wore armour historical making your weapon completely useless even it hit on the enemy. Even in horseback fighting there were also technique of circling enemy with agile horses (which hussars like to use), unlike the well narrowed stage in fencing sport which forbids much movement
@Remove Talos Footwork, timing and distance control are extremely important in sword fighting, all of those are taught in fencing. Most HEMA clubs never emphasize those as much as they should.
When i was first learning fencing, I started with a straight grip, and it wasn't "bad" for fencing, but when i began using a pistol grip, i found my movements and thrusts to be much more fluid. At this point i still prefer the pistol group for the purpose of fencing.
I also like swords, and I prefer the French grip, but unlike you I love fencing and the idea of an 18th or 19th century gentlemen's duel. I never really was fixated on MEDIEVAL swordsmanship. And besides, with my skill in fencing, I feel that I can use pretty much any sword with some success. Also I came to really admire Fencing for what it is, or is descended from - it has such precision and technique!
As someone who has a year of foil experience i can say that those swords aren't as wobbly as they appear the reason they appear so is because of the incredible speed and strength of the olympians that for some reason Elitists like to compare all of fencing to.
And also an optical illusion :), as the fencers are gamboling as well so their hands go up and down too. Similar like our childhood's "wobbly pencil" trick. I've had the same experience with epee. When I was given a handful of blades to choose from, my first reaction was: "wow, this is rigid" (compared to what I've expected).
I like your videos, but this one doesn't make much sense... Olympic fencing is a SPORT. it is not meant to be a historical knight fight reenactment XD. I used to do foil fencing myself. Of course thats not realistic combat... It never was meant to be... Foil is the most technical weapon out of the three. For people who don't know: both Foil and Epee are thrust weapons only. In Epee, all targets are valid. From the foor to the helmet. In Foil, only the body and crotch (lol) are. Arms, Helmets and legs are not valid. The Epee is a very stiff triangular blade, while the foil is a small rectangular blade that is very bendy. You can actually hit your opponent in the back in foil (would technically be legal in Epee, but good luck bending that triangular blade XD). In Sabre, everything from the waist up is valid, and you can both thrust and slash. The blade is also triangular, so it's quite stiff. It is not as fat as the Epee. There are other difference in the rules as well between the three weapons but I guess that gives you guys an idea. Fencing is a beutiful sport. But don't take it as a realistic fight reenactment... it's not! Its an individual sport, much like Tennis...
I think it may have been Matt Easton that addressed this point, but it might have been Skallagrim. Don't remember which it was, but one of the gentlemen made the point that the reason so many people /want/ to see Olympic Fencing as "real sword fighting!" is because until Hema started getting mainstream (something extremely recent), fencing and Kendo were the only widely available outlets for learning how to (in theory) handle a sword. Because fencing, for a long time has been, at least on the surface, one of the only formal ways to PROPERLY learn to handle a sword, a lot of people have forced themselves into confirmation bias that "No, it's not just a sport it's real sword fighting, because that's what I came here to learn, because nowhere else taught it!"
turmat01 thank you someone who actually has experience in fencing like I. I get that people think fencing is a actual sword fight but in the end it’s just a sport and people don’t get it.
As you say Olympic fencing was never meant to be anything but a sport. By the time the Olympics came about swords were declining in military use. To be fair, early sport fencing schools were teaching fencing both as sport and for military use. Angelo's School of Arms was one if the first (if not the first) to shift toward the sport aspect, but even they also were teaching British infantry soldiers how to use their swords for realzies. They taught a method for real swordsmanship that could also be used for sport/physical fitness. Kinda like how military bootcamp is designed to condition you as a soldier, but you can also just use it as a fitness program. It became really popular as a sport and over time it shifted away from military focus and eventually dropped it entirely by the time Olympic fencing started. So it has its origins in real fencing and I personally can't fault anyone for being disappointed that it has lost that element. I would like to see a 4th category added to the Olympics that goes back to earlier fencing rules emulating a real duel. You could call that a form of HEMA, but I'd be ok if it stayed sportified and just ditched certain rules. Keep the limited target areas but do away with right of way penalize doubles so that you can't just get one point and then double out in Epee.
Hi Metatron :) As a practicioner of both olympic and historical fencing (I am currently studying to become a Historical and Artristic Fencing Instructor at the Accademia Nazionale di Scherma), I have to say there's a point very few people grasp: They're the same discipline, but with different rulesets and weapons. Fencing, or "Scherma" is a martial art that goes beyond the weapon you're using. There are universal pinciples (speed, tempo and timing, distance, strategy and tactics) that are applied differently based on what's the game that we're playing: if the game is killing each other with a sabre, for example, of course I will have to effectively parry your blow and riposte on the neck with a proper cut; but if the game is switching on a light with the right-of-way rule, I will just touch your blade and poke you on the arm, so that the referee gives me the point even if you scored a split second before me. What doesn't change is the underlying mentality of the duellist. The right-of-way rule was born as a mean to preserve duelling gentlemen's life, to maintain a better "frase d'armi" or construction of the conclusive action in order to avoid a double hit or "colpo delle due vedove". So it's actually one of the most "historical" components of modern olympic fencing. What happened then, what created this aberration of fencing, is that the mean turned into an end, so all the technique is being thrown away in favour of this game of electrified tag. Probably to make it easier and accessible to more people. We leave theoretical discussion to enter FIE politics here, which I'm not really into. And, tecnhically, REAL swordsmanship is dead and there's nothing we can do about it. We cannot practice ACTUAL swordfighting without dying, being badly injured or ending up in jail after the first bout. So we have to make compromise: olympic fencing is a good one, because it withholds all the technical and theoretical components of real fencing, even though the outcome is a bit crappy (but I'll make an exception for Epee here, which I think is the most HEMAish because it's non-conventional, and therefore more "realistic"... Yes, I'm an epeeist 😜); HEMA is another compromise, but in my opinion in the HEMA community there is too much pedantry on the interpretation of one or another specific treatise, and not enough good use of fencing principles, so the result is a bit crappy in HEMA competitions as well... The best approach would be, in my opinion, to learn the proper mindset by attending foil (OH THE HORROR) or sabre lessons with a maestro (not instructor), and then move over to non-conventional fencing such as epee and/or longsword, sword and buckler etc. Perhaps sooner or later I'll make a proper video about this point and explain better 🙂 Peace :D P.S. Yes, when you start epee with no fencing background, it's better to use a pistol grip at first... The french one requires a bit more dexterity, so your instructor was right 😆 P.P.S. Epee also has, of course, a big aberration, which is a double point for a double hit, instead of 0 points. So if we're, say, 11-13 I will just attack over your attack and seek the double hit so that I score 15 before you. That's what makes me think that the best ruleset for historical fencing is one similar to epee, but with no points for the double.
Scoring boxes did also mean you would not need 5 ref's to watch a single match. Tournaments in the UK can struggle to get 1 ref for a match let alone 5. The thing I also find when people use french grips is that they hold it too tightly and much like a club.
Not totally dead... they do real duels in south american prisons (yeah, they fight to death). Of course, they dont use olympic stuff but home made, but the principle is the same, very long thin and flexible blades that can both cut and stab, being the stab the usual movement.
To be honest. I saw some video of HEMA tournaments and they tend to be emberrassing. I understand the mindset is "kill without dying", but I've seen too many people just running at each other, trying to move the opponent's weapon out of the way and then grappling in a very brawl-like manner. I lost all my interest in hema after seeing these competitions. I like technique, not brawling. Always wanted to try fencing but I'm too short for it. I have many years of experience in semi-contact (which is a rule system in kick boxing that is extremely similar to fencing) and I painfully learned that height is a huge advantage.
Both certainly have their benefits. I took Olympic fencing in college and was even top of my class. Like you, I absolutely hate the pistol grip, it's trash but I do understand why they insist. It's all about wrist alignment, with a French grip, your wrist is at an angle which slightly limits your tip control. The pistol grip allows for a downward parry without having to twist your wrist completely over to catch the low thrust.
What is the one hobby or art that you have actually stuck with? I ask because it seems that you practice many things relatively briefly and then quit them after finding "issues" with them.
Yildirim Indeed, this does seem to be the case. I suppose finding something you really, truly enjoy is sometimes difficult and may involve trying several options, but Metatron has 'issues' with so many things. Not only that, he feels the need to tell the whole world about it. Just try things and move on if necessary.
It’s a good question. Trying and not having things work out is important, though. We want to get the very best use of our time, not just something that is ok.
Hello Metatron! How would I go about contacting you personally? I don't mean via telephone or anything necessarily. It's about an Italian class project in University that requires an actual Italian citizen. And other then the people of the local Massolin di Fiori society (which haven't been answering my phone calls sadly), you're the only other Italian that I know, could you help me out? According to my teacher it should be really as simple as a single message. I would like to explain it a bit more in detail in private, but I don't know if RUclips has a PM system. Thank you in advance.
I've sent you a friend request on Facebook since Facebook's message system is kind of complicated, since when you send to non-friends they end up on the "other" message box, and sometimes they don't show up at all.
Raf, I agree with your point, and that's the reason I chose the saber to train olimpic fencing when I was young. At my city it was the closest thing to a real sword combat. Best wishes
As someone who did Fencing for around a year of fencing with mostly foils but sometimes sabres I loved the Pistol grip. It felt right in the hand and the movements in fencing felt natural. It's a grip that was made for fencing. Fencing is a sport not combat and as a sport it's great but there are elements of it that can work in a martial context. The footwork you get from fencing is second to none and to this day even after years of not really practicing it I can easily close or widen my distance against an aggressor easily and if I'm carrying a knife I know I'm able to get close to anyone who wants to do me harm. While I ended up giving my foil, with the great pistol grip, away I like any Puerto Rican own a Machete, I still like to practice the sabre forms with it and fool around a bit. But yeah Olympic Fencing, specially with foils is mostly a points game. My teacher who trained the Olympic team use to say that back in his day people really hit each other hard so that the Judge could know who hit first but this days with electronic sensors mostly replacing Judges it became all about speed. I understand as someone who was more interested in Historical 14th Century Swordplay to not be a fan of modern Fencing equipment but there's a reason for it to be that way. A Pistol grip for example is great to protect your wrist and have the right form all the time while using a Foil. But with sabre for example you use a more classical sabre handle with hand cover so that is more similar to how a sabre was used in combat. With Swords it's pretty much anything you want to do, it's full body so there's more movement options. That being said it's your equipment so a trainer forcing you to go to a Pistol Grip is definetely not good. A good teacher simply let's the student grab a couple of equipments and see which one calls to you so to speak. For foil fencing for me the pistol grip called me and I bought my own online at a bargain, you had to see the reaction in my dorm when a long ass box came for me lol.
You can't compare Fencing/Kendo/Medieval with a real life situation and say that Medieval has advantage over the others. Cos you don't get out in the streets and stab people. You might only do that in video games.
Thats as false as saying that an MMA fighter does not know how to fight because he only does it in the ring....come on man, the diference betwen fencing/kendo and HEMA is that fencing and kendo are sports, they have a set of rules that both restrict you and give you a core mindset and approach to the encounter. HEMA( historical European martial arts) is a martial art, a fighting sistem, its designed to provide options for any possibility you might encounter, be it cutting, thrusting, grappling, ground fighting, etc. Not only that but HEMA competitions try to be as less restrictive as safely possible, while at the same time trying to uphold the value of self preservation first and foremost when you fight. To put it simply, fencing and kendo both strive to be a sport, entertaining, challenging, and fast paced. HEMA on the other had strives to be a martial art, an effective simulation on how to use a real sword in a real life or death situation and survive.....of course it has to make compromises, nobody is saying it perfectly represents every aspect of a real duel to the death, but it is the current closest representation, and it's in a constant effort to make itself closer and closer to reality.
As someone who mainly fences foil (currently a 'B' in USFA's system), consider this a contrary perspective. There seems to be a notion in the comments that foil is 'useless' outside the specific ruleset in modern fencing. That, to put it charitably, is BS. Foil as a discipline forces you to master a number of blade actions and distance management. You can't just turtle by forcing doubles, like you can in Epee. You have to parry and riposte. You can't just focus on low risk arm picks. You have to set up a deep attack to the torso. You can't rely on getting points through doubles. You have to take the initiative and set up attacks because of ROW. The closest analogy I can give you is learning tennis vs pickleball. Tennis forces you to use body rotation and master technique whereas pickleball is a lot more forgiving on form and athleticism. It's quite well known within fencing that if you're sufficiently advanced in foil, you can pretty much switch to Epee without a lot of training and do well against anyone who is not a very high level competitor. As an example, I've never trained in Epee at all, but am currently a 'C' in USFA's system. Likewise, I've seen 'U's and 'E's (the lowest ratings currently possible) in foil consistently beat Bs and Cs in Epee when they try foil. At one of our in-house club tournaments, a foil fencer who'd only joined about a year earlier easily beat (5-1) an A rated Saber fencer who'd been fencing since he was 7. Put simply, the skills you develop in foil translate the best into other weapons and going the other way is far more difficult. So, no disrespect to your coach, but she should've insisted that you do at least a couple of months of foil. I also practice HEMA rapier and smallsword (though mainly recreationally and somewhat for the scholarship) and foil translates even better to those depending on the ruleset. Once you're really good at distance and timing, even without knowing exact techniques, you can land covered hits against people who've only done HEMA just through footwork. Though they'll probably beat you if you get into a grapple. Pistol grip vs french grip: I've fenced with both. I like fencing french when I'm at the club and sometimes use it competitively in Epee. In competitive foil though, you'd have to be idiot to pick french over pistol. The pistol grip pretty much forces your tip to point the right way. It's more or less impossible to dislodge the blade from your hand and your blade actions are a lot stronger. If I were teaching someone fencing, I'd probably start them out in french but basically tell them to switch to pistol if they have any desire to fence in a tournament.
I have not fenced or done hema. But i have done boxing since i was 15 and i used to think like you when it comes to terms with mma. I wanted to do mma for a long time but only had boxing available and i thought that it would be a disadvantage to spend all those years only working my hands. Only now i realize how much i learned in boxing and that it was not any harder to unlearn bad habits than to learn new ones, which is also a reason you can see like kickboxers going into the ufc faster than a guy starting with mma from scratch. I strongly believe it can be the same case with hema and fencing and if you wanna do hema but only have fencing available do the fencing. You definitely will learn hema easier with a background in fencing.
As a foilist, I agree completely with your assessment of foil - it's a game, a modern sport, and it doesn't really represent historical sword fighting at all. I prefer the sport aspect of fencing, its athleticism. You're a typical HEMA fanatic - you want to feel you're playing with a real sword. But modern fencing isn't about the weapon - matches are won and lost entirely on footwork, distance and timing. The weapon is incidental.
I am doing fencing for 8 years now. I think fencing is more for people who like 17th and 18th century swordfighting. I like both medieval as well as 17th and 18th century swordfighting. But i prefer want fencing. Oh. And a fun fact. On my club you can also learn on how to fight with bayonets on rifles.
It is fun to see all the butt hurt fencers in the comments. And in thier defence, the metatron basicly failed to do his homework. He was looking for an historically based martial art, and mistakenly thought fencing might be that. Truth is that modern fencing have about as mush to do with historic martial arts as olympic javelin throwing. Its a good sport and it will keep you in shape, but thats it. What he was looking for was something like: ruclips.net/video/ykUJP78YYQc/видео.html (edit for spelling and translation mistakes)
I just started HEMA, specifically German Longsword, and I find that my 3 year prior Kendo experience is helping me greatly, the primary thing I need to learn at the moment is stepping out of line and defending myself while making my attacks but there is a decent amount of carry over and I feel like it's helped me progress much quicker than I would have with no prior martial art experience.
foil is foundation for good epee because epee on its own you can be good but to excel you need to have a foundation in foil typically for fencers because in foil you learn how to parry repost, timing footwork beat attacks, etc all of which are important technical skills needed to defeat your opponent I think
Two changes would fix sport fencing. First is that the time between your hit and theirs needs to be greatly extended to at least a full second. Second is that double hits need to be punished so that sport fencers have to defend themselves rather than just worry about who touches the other one first.
In Epee yes. That's not really how sport fencing works outside of Epee though. Foil and Sabre have priority systems where the person who first initiates an attack or who last makes a successful parry/riposte is awarded the point. It's a massively oversimplified way to determine the winner of the fight, but it is rooted in historical systems; you'll get the same thing if you try to do Broadsword, military sabre, dussack, or even longsword in a modified capacity (see Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, or Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter). I also like Matt Easton's videos ;)
No, there's no need to "fix" anything in fencing. In fact every time they try to do that it only causes more problems. The last time they messed with the foil timings it caused people to start using weird techniques to avoid hits... all because they wanted to "fix" it and get rid of flicking. The thing is, fencing is a sport and it's not a simulation of sword fighting. If that's what you think sport fencing is or what you want it to be, then you're thinking about it wrong.
squiddypiddy even though it's based off the rapier, it's still very different from one. All of the weapons have some change from their original weapon (foil and small sword, saber and saber, epee and rapier). Saber is probably closest to it's weapon but real sabers also have probably the most variation of the three based weapons. Epee is the closest to the original dueling rules of first blood. However there's a reason the other two weapons didn't follow this in the first place.
I have more than a decade in each of fencing, kendo and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (Filipino martial arts). The first two are clearly sports and the last a study of efficient ways to meet out death. Kali is a blade art, with the training principles equally applicable to sword, knife, stick and empty hands. It's goal is to dispatch the enemy quickly and to return you home safely. While there is less than lethal sparring the mindset is contra sport. My interest in kendo and fencing faded as I aged and my athleticism waned. My mind was still very sharp and my sport lethality was there, but the joint strain and lack of applicability of skills toward self defense dulled my zeal. The lethality of kali is more aging friendly and the use of an edged weapons lessons the need for maximum power and instead focuses on speed and accuracy. Nevertheless; all combat requires a sense of distance and timing and thus the years I spent in kendo and fencing have given me a combat sense way beyond my years of study. My body has aged considerably but my brain remains sharp and my ability to read an opponents intention is still strong. I consider myself, at best, a lower midlevel kali practitioner, but the blade skills I have learned give me substantial confidence that my array of perfectly legal pocket accessories are likely to keep me safe where ever I go. Takeaway - time spent learning any weapon art is not wasted. If you want to learn practical self defense applications, sport arts need to be set aside for those systems designed for real combat.
theres a really good one done by funker tactical, search funker tactical kali then search funker tactical escrima the first one is why filipino martial arts trainin is unrealistic and the second is must watch double stick beastmode and the truth about defanging the snake. id link them but youtube is a bitch about links in comments.
not racist actually, what im saying is watch his video because youll see what good kali looks like versus bad kali, the stuff is great but a lot of places dont teach it properly.
Not fearing for your life while fencing or practicing any kind of swordplay will kind of ruin the reality of it, but where would we end up if people would be killed in olympic fencing? Same can be said with any risk/reward activity. Take poker for instance. If you remove risk of losing money then the game becomes shallow empty shell of what it supposed to be. I think same can be said about sword fighting aswell. If you know your opponent could kill you then you would be very careful of what you are doing. I personally think they could implement many rules in olympic fencing to make it more realistic, but i cant say for sure what other impact it would put on the sport. One rule that comes into mind is penalizing for reckless moves, but how would you judge it is another matter entirelly.
For me, it depends on how much experience they've had in either. Someone with a few months of Kendo is much easier to train than someone with a few months of foil, but also someone with YEARS of Kendo will be harder to train than someone with years of foil. In the end though the difference is small. My favorite thing about taking on either group is watching their faces when I tell them they will never have to do that stupid duck walk ever again. I mean I guess we're screwed if Santa's elves attack, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. (Yes I know it builds leg strength, but there are so many other ways of doing that.)
If you think footwork is dumb and historically inaccurate, you probably are a weeb, or just a shitty longsword fencer who forgets other weapons existed.
Since I just started going back to classes for competition fencing, I feel this needs to be shared. The instructor commented on how we no longer think of them as swords, so we will do things you'd never do with a live blade. His suggestion? Hook the swords up to car batteries. "If you knew every time that hit you, you'd feel that zap, you'd focus a lot more on not getting hit."
the foil was invented to prepare for the duel. parry and attack is the most basic thing to survive. attacking the dead zones, the torso in particular, is much more effective than piercing a foot or an arm, and being killed by an instinctive riposte ... I suppose that the chevalier de Saint George, great French foilist of the eighteenth century and the most formidable duellist of his time would not say the opposite ... I like Metatron's analysis, even those little inaccuracies that allow us to intervene at the right moment.
Spot on. People who don't know fencing and don't know foil discount it without really understanding the background and history. And have never gone up against a good foilist...
No offense here, but your expectations were/are moderately cringey. You entered fencing not even knowing what HEMA even was, yet you basically expected to become a knight using a sport.
I would consider it a mix between a southern English accent and a southern Italian accent as I am an Italian who has lived in England for a while (and in Japan but I have no Japanese influence in my English) so you weren't too far off :) My accent is non-rhotic and in terms of pronunciation of single words it's southern English, but the intonation is were my Italian accent comes back, so this is why you feel it to be odd. Normally when I go back and visit England my intonation goes back to English, but while living in Italy I am surrounded by Italians so my English does get influenced by that "melody"
Tell me if I am wrong. You speak fast as Italian. So your english looks faster than average. As a French Canadian it is the same(even for people from france) we have a dialect that use some contractions. Like when we say: Il y a. We actualy say Ya. So we speak fast.
Technically, foil is not a toy, it's a training aid for a short sword, which is a real actual lightweight weapon that was designed to be portable in cities and was carried around by the nobility. In fact, the nobility was obliged to wear a weapon. That weapon was supposed to be used against a guy protected by metal plates by poking in the holes in the armor. Also, the "ignoring the threat" thing also had its purpose in the training. It was supposed to help the learner to acquire the proper technique that is useful in combat. I'm assuming that the idea was: in a real combat, the fear of being cut will naturally come back. But applying good technique will make your hits more lethal, parries more effective and that advantage is what counts in a real combat. Look at Sabre for example: just scratch the opponent's arm and the lamp goes on. Or Epee: you touch opponent's toenail and you score the point - that only counts in 19'th century duels, but has nothing to do with combat. So, in my humble opinion, modern foil is closest of all three to what you need to prepare for a real combat on small swords. Of course, except for the flicks.
Wait a sec, you're Sicilian? Please make a video about it! The impression foreigners have of Sicilians is almost fantastical. Stuff like honor culture, hotheadedness, mafia-stuff.
I did some fencing and found it so funny when friends would want to spar. One, in particular, would swing so wide and it was just so easy to dart in on a thrust and dart back and just keep hitting him and not ever being anywhere to get struck. This guy thought he knew sword fighting but he was all talk and it was fun to know a little and just put him in his place.
I have many years of fencing experience, I've built like 57 fences.
lol
Most of my experience has been in tearing down fences.
57 you say, but how many was a Fencing Duel? I mean anyone can build a fence, but it takes guts to duel, building against each other in all manner of haste and aggression
TO THE DEATH! No...to the Pain!
...I don't think I'm quite familiar with that phrase.
i stopped watching kitten videos for this
Good.
What an honour xD
Mephistopheles - now if only they could make a fencing kittens video
Daaaamn!!
I don't like foil. It's rough, course and irritating
Sigurd Torvaldsson Not like sword. Sword’s all soft and smooth.
Anakin quote
Sigurd Torvaldsson coarse#
Hello there
@@franciscofunari2343 why did you give up the high ground Mr Kenobi?
"That's like a gun-toothpick." 😂😂
As a long life fencer: having a problem with fencing as a martial arts, is like having a problem with tennis as a wrong representation of shooting a bow and arrow. In other words, it doesn't make sense. I love fencing, and I completely respect that you were disappointed in it because you wanted something more real to life, not a sports activity. But no fencing teacher worth its weight is going to claim he/she will teach you a viable martial arts. If they do, find another teacher please. Can fencers gain inspiration from martial arts such as HEMA or kendo? Sure, they are completely free to do so, but that is only to broaden their fencing experience.
I didn't know tennis was a straight descendant of the bow and arrow
@@milewesler9592 I don’t think it is?😅
@@Janisurai what a astute observation. However FENCING. was the sword, it just downgraded over many years. So it is a quite misleading " game. "
@@milewesler9592 Replace 'bow and arrow' with real tennis (i.e the style of tennis that Henry VIII would've played) and the OP's point still stands. Sure, it's an interesting game (I've even given it a go) and really fun in its own right, but it's not modern lawn tennis where having a massive serve is 70% of the game, you can bounce off walls and most of the game is actually about the 'chase' (which doesn't exist in the modern game). Source: I'm a 5.0 USTA and an aggressive noob at real tennis.
Fencing is the lawn tennis equivalent of HEMA/martial art. Is it inspired by actual smallsword/saber techniques? Yup. Will practicing fencing make you better at using the actual weapons? Generally no, though there are some transferable skills (similar to lawn vs real tennis) -- I practice smallsword and rapier at a HEMA club in addition to olympic foil and most of my HEMA is just foil with a different coat of paint. The footwork, distance and parries carry over magnificently.
Your video reminds of several things I have experienced in the past. I too learned Olympic Fencing (OF) because I was interested in swords and there was no HEMA school near by.
I came away with a great respect for OF. Yes, there are things in OF that are not realistic as you mention. You have to realize that allot of these rules were created before safety gear was readily available the way it is today. But overall, it will teach you allot and develop reflexes and corrdination. I have always incorporated many things that I leared in fencning even when learning Filipino knife fighting and they have worked very well. For example, in OF I was taught to always have my weapon infront of me and to have the point at the opponent. I guess I learned that from epee and foil fencning. I also learned the effectiveness of thrust. I would spar with allot of people in knife fighting and some of them were supposed to be very advanced students. They would do weird things with the grips, blades positioned not infront of them, and even moving the blades around. I know this sounds very arrogant but I ususally ended stabbing many of them with no problems: I just treated soemwhat like a OF match.
Yes, there are some goofy rules in OF but if your techniques don't work then you don't win. That makes it very utilitarian. You are correct in that there are allot of people and schools who talk a good game but fall apart on the field. They have come up with some really dumb stuff that doesn't work.
I think OF has allot to offer and with some adjustment, it can lend itself to some very practical technique.
yea in OF you learn coordination really well and the reflexes you need in Sabre are only matched by table tennis players in the olympic games
What style of FMA have you been learning?
My case in point! 👍🏼
I know competitive fencers sometimes sort of patronize HEMA folks, which is unfortunate. Speaking as a long time and very high level sport Sabre fencer, as well as a long time disciple of both German and Italian longsword, I cant hold my piece any longer.
Metatron, and all other fellow HEMA folks- modern sport fencing is still very much fencing. The two biggest critiques I hear are “sport fencers aren’t afraid of being hit so long as they get there first” and the pistol grip complaint- more on that in a moment.
In sport fencing, we have a concept called “right of way” (in foil and Sabre) which evolves from the historical idea of having to address an incoming attack before attacking in turn in order to increase one’s chance of survival. The goal is still to do everything one can to hit without being hit. That’s called a “one light” touch. It’s what we do our very best to achieve. That way there can be no question who scored. HEMA has the same issue. Even at the very highest levels currently available, the vast majority of modern HEMA fighters will always try to attack into an attack. I see this all the time with my club- I attack fast and from distance, in a straight cut, and yet ALL of my club mates will just swing right into me, rather than address my attack first. It’s so prevalent that you will see it happening just as commonly in high level HEMA as in sport fencing. So, please stop the critiques.
Point two- the pistol grip. The pistol grip was designed originally for competitive foil and epee fencers to maximize the ergonomic potential of one’s hand to increase speed and tip precision aka “point control”. And it really does. The goal of sport fencing is to both: learn to fight, but also to compete against others and that means you have to train every part of yourself to be the fastest, most precise and most athletic you can be. It typically flows much faster than it looks, meaning that it also is usually moving much faster than most historical fencers (long sword excluded) typically move. At those speeds, and having to hit with a very small part of your sword, the extra precision allowed by the pistol grip makes all the world of difference. I had me reservations with it when I first saw it, but it really is a huge help at competitive speeds.
Lastly- as to your training. Listen, I’m not gonna criticize the club you went to, but they should have started you with foil. The rules and techniques of it provide a very basic info to the other two disciplines. Most successful training programs follow this method and, as a former instructor myself, students of mine who began with foil always outperformed those who did not. I was a Sabre man myself, even made alternate on the US World Team in 2003. Sabre was the perfect fit for me as it’s all about speed and aggression, but without my basis in foil, I never could have gotten where I did.
Sorry to rant, but sometimes both competitive and HEMA fencers get entirely too “high horse” about their respective disciplines and I figured my perspective as having spent my whole life studying both might shed some light here.
I like the explanation, you make good points. And now I really want to fence sabre at your club
Perhaps my experience is too limited, but I haven't heard any claims of superiority from the sport fencer side. HEMA is simply too small for most people to have even heard of it, much less criticize.
On the other hand, respect to you for your skills!
Long boring comment, stopped reading at the second sentence.
As a fellow fencer (though not on your level) I agree with nearly all of this except the right of way part. Yes it exists, but it doesn't encourage you to try and strike without getting hit, it just encourages you to strike first (or in a way where you have right of way). I mean even if parry and gain the right of way as a defender your not really deflecting the attack. Your just trying to tap their blade so that you can attack back and get the right of way. After you touch their blade to yours you don't care if they hit you, you just want to hit them as quick as you can before the lockout kicks in on the scorebox. Also, the pistol grip did make my hand hurt after extended sessions. It's just really awkward feeling, even if it does make point control a LITTLE easier.
As an épée fencer I can say that we dont really patronize HEMA. Actually a lot of people at my club think it's cool, and everyone at my club is Korean
Metatron does not seem to understand the advantages of learning fencing with a pistol grip as a beginner. Had he been just a little bit wiser he would have listened to his instructor and after a while would would have been able to make a more informed decision rather than pretend he knew what was better for him from the outset. When he knew a bit more about fencing *then* he might have decided to use a french grip (there are a number of valid reasons why its just detrimental for a beginner to start with one). Just because something is historical, it does not make for the best initial learning method.
Yeah. He's a LARPer not an athlete.
The existence of the pistol grip shows the priority of fencing, sport. it is likely that he realized that it may be so sport oriented that it didn't provide the insight into swordplay he wanted and that his time was better spent elsewhere. In HEMA we talk all the time about what artifacts in the practice come about as a result of rules, equipment, and sparring partners. This practice helps us find ways to minimize these factors and get as close to the roots of the culture as possible. Metatron has no interest in fencing because he has little interest in sport as far as i can tell.
Great comment and analysis but it took me 3 tries to realize you weren't calling him "sport" as in "old sport" lol@@lowfatlatte0
I do not know if You will see this, but just a thought:
I am a national coach of Olympic Fencing with many years of experiance. From my point of view there is a high chance that your instructor was right:
Womens epee it is a 50:50 decision if You should go for pistol or french grip men epee is more like 90% pistol 10% french. Men hit the blade much harder so You really need to be the type for the french grip.
second: for french grip you are fencing much more out of the rythmus of your footwork (if you start late with fencing (and what I could see of your body type) it is hard to get to the point where you can outmaneuver your oponet with your superiour footwork).
3. from Your kendo & hema experiance you should be more used to "talk" with the blade then with your footwork.
4. it is strange to me that you refuse the pistol grip, the roman army was very open to modernasation and improcement
Contentious statement: Foil is a good basis for learning longsword.
The stances are so different that your foil habits will hardly interfere with longsword at all. (they will interfere with rapier a bit more).
Distance and timing carry over more or less seamlessly.
The right of way system is quite similar to Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, and to Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter concepts.
Foil will make your point control good enough to actually hit with your thrusts.
It certainly wouldn't hurt. I'd argue that doing foil for two years then doing longsword for two years won't make you as good as simply doing longsword for four years would, but if you can do both at the same time then yeah it's probably beneficial.
A few points as both a competitive fencer and a coach:
Firstly it sounds like you had a REALLY old fashioned coach. I know that on the continent there is a long period of S&C, footwork etc. before you are allowed to fence, but here in the UK we get people fencing within their first hour!
Secondly, I agree that epee is the best, however it doesn't sound like your coach explained the grips properly. The French grip and the Italian grip both give you less strength than the pistol or Belgian. The French grip is just straight and an Italian grip is straight with rings attached to the guard. As the pistol grip gives more strength, the Italian grip fell out of use (I think I've only seen one ever, and that was just an old one a club had for novelty value) but the French remained because of pommeling - holding the grip at the end (the pommel) to give extra reach to offset the disadvantage of reduced strength. You might have had more luck with a Russian grip (sort of a halfway between the two, like a French grip with stubs protruding to add control like a Visconti pistol) or a Belgian.
Thirdly you can cut with a sabre, but like foil it has poxy priority rules. This basically means that if I attack you, you parry me and repost, we both hit at the same time then only you get the point. If we both attack at the same time no-one gets a point. You also can't hit the legs. Supposedly the sabre evolved from the cavalry weapon, which is why below the belt attacks are not valid, as it was bad form to hit your opponents horse. The epee evolved from the duelling weapon, and was to first blood, which is why attacks anywhere are valid. The cutting edge was taken off and the V shape added to create a lighter and therefore faster thrusting weapon. Foil was originally a training weapon to teach blade-work and is just silly.
Lastly and good coach will teach you to not stop when you get the hit, but to carry on until you are told to stop or retreat in a way that protects you, as too often a fencer thinks they have gotten a hit, stopped and been hit themselves. I've seen it happen too often and is something you should have drilled out of you. Maybe fencers with a problem with this should try HEMA cross-training to wallop it out of them.
Mr Metatron. One thing i would like to mention mention is that Italy is one of the nations with the best fencers in the world, so perhaps your teacher is one of those who simply wanted to give her club medals and wins. Because my fencing-trainer is very passionate about the art of the sport, yet I have seen many trainers who can't seem to think about anything else than results. That will always make the experience of training fencing feel miserable.
Ho fatto 3 anni e mezzo di scherma e devo dire che mi è stata utilissima per imparare la posizione dei piedi per dare meno bersagli all'avversario cosa che sto utilizzando moltissimo nell'aikido e che mi sta permettendo di imparare sin da subito le tecniche senza dover usare molto tempo sui Hanmi, Kamae (soprattutto nell'utilizzo del bokken e del jo) e negli ashi-sabaki, credo che anche nella Hema possa essere utile il "footwork" (che bello quando conosci i concetti nell'inglese e li dimentichi in italiano).
Per quanto riguarda invece il discorso del tempo rallentato nell'eseguire le tecniche nella Hema credo dipenda che all'inzio debba imparare ogni movimento correttamente e poi puoi svolgere le stesse tecniche alla massima velocità, come mi viene in quando praticavo scherma e le cavazioni le ho imparate al rallentatore, dopo un paio di mesi le facevo velocissimo, o come adesso nell'aikido che facevo l'Ikkyo molto lentamente ed ora inizio a farlo in maniera pulita e rapida, credo sia solo una questione di imparare bene all'inzio in modo corretto e poi di diventano automatismi, inoltre considerando che nella Hema (giustamente) non ci si uccide vicendevolmente, soprattutto agli inizi, per evitare impicci si procede più lentamente.
I fenced for 2 years in college and attending a few tournaments and I would say first an foremost to anyone thinking about trying it out is that you need to understand fencing is a sport, not a martial art. Metatron described foil fencing as a game, and that is exactly right. All of it is just a game, a fun game (in my opinion), but still just a game. No one in actual duel or battle or any combat situation would actual fight they way fencers do unless they were trying to commit suicide. So if you want to learn a martial art or self defense look elsewhere. If you want an alternative to basketball or soccer, give fencing a try.
That was my biggest turn off from fencing, the fact that it doesn’t matter if you get hit as long as you get the point. I remember wanting to treat it like a proper duel but you can’t, because the optimal play is to rush in and get the point first regardless of wether or not you were gonna get hit. It’s what made me stop fencing.
I even got into playful arguments with my instructors (always respectful of course), telling them that that form of combat was less interesting to me and how much more fun it could be
Because fencing is a sport, we are not simulating duels. Also, I think epee, heck even foil if you learn counterattacks, good parry setups, both could be right up your alley. Sabre attacking is definitely favored heavily. Still, fencing is just a fun sport that has evolved off practicing with weapons over time, hema is for trying to do realistic historical(Though be warned in tournaments people can get weird)
Metatron, I'm about to celebrate 25 years of fencing this June. And I picked it up just to see what it was like, at a local YMCA. In answer to a few of your points.
1. You joined the wrong club with the wrong coach. She should very much have allowed you to use the French grip.
2. Foil is pretty much a very physical dance. The skill is tempered by the rules of Right Of Way (ROW). ROW was originally developed to keep young noblemen alive in duals. But it its application has been carried to ridiculous extremes, starting in the 1970s. Back in the 90s when I started, there was a time I thought the rule was the guy who pulls his arm "back" first and came running forward was the attacker. Since then it's been cleaned up, a little.
3. You didn't like the sword, aka Epee? I'm going to guess you were hoping it is more like the fencing you saw in the movies with Errol Flynn. Up until the late 70s it was probably a game you could get into, if not love. But since then the game has become far more physical. And the strategy, at least at the Olympic level, was driven by not attacking into the strong points of your opponents' game. A lot of that was driven by a Swede named Johan Harmenberg, who won the 1980 Olympics in Epee. Since then the fencers are simply driven to be faster, to overcome the opponents' technique with superior physical ability.
Foil fencing is actually the preeminent sword dueling style. Thinking foil fighting is a joke or just sport exposes ignorance and intellectual laziness. This is not typical for you, so I'm compelled to conclude it's due to irrational bias.
The real problem is that professional instructors in the foil discipline are often not well informed about the topic either…
In Silat our Trainer hits us with a bamboo stick during training and sparring so we learn to concentrate and focus even with pain. Silat Suffian bela Diri - "no matter how good you are, you will get hit" and thats why we train to learn how to deal with being hit in a fight.
When i asked why we train so little actual "hardening" the body against blows like i was used to in Karate my trainer said "you never know what attacks you and most likely your attacker has a knife. You can train to take hits from a fist but no matter how hard your muscles become, you can not take a blade so train to evade, block and not get hit. But if you get hit, and you will, you have to learn to focus"
The problem here is that fencing blades aren't thought of as swords within the sport. Call a foil or epee a sword and you'll be chewed out by instructors in a heartbeat. Also, the pistol grip is favored a little more by fencers in general because it gives them a lot more control without a grip that looks like it's made for two hands. Sure, with a French grip you can pommel to get more range from your blade, but I know that I always feels really wonky because there's so much more of a handle to work with when you've only got one hand on the thing.
As far as the point about cutting in fencing, you can't really practice draw cuts or cuts that would have much depth to them. If you think of the forward flick cut that appears in Kendo, saber acts similarly, but with one hand. It's all really restrictive, which means you can't *really* cut, even if you get the motion down.
Epée is sword in French pal
While that may be true, I think his point is that if you were to call it that your instruction would likely chew you out for doing so.
I think you are a small and delicate man, the grip is not that long.
You seem to have pretty nasty instructors.
Seriously? There isn't a club by you? I mean I live in the middle of nowhere and I found a club I can get to often enough. Granted it's a 2 and a half hour drive but it's worth it.
i live in a populated western city , cant find one unless i want to drive for 4 hours + .
There's a lot of boat traffic from sicily to the southern part of Calabria and so the rest of italy, but yes, not that comfortable thing to do many times a week. Also, not every one has the time to drive many times a week for several hours.
In school I practiced the epee and I became rather skilled with it, but my true love was always the saber, which I had the height and strength for, but not the sparring opponents in my high school club. As an aside I did use an Italian grip, but that might have been owing to the fact they're cheap, and our fencing club we started ourselves and was barely funded.
What I like about the epee is that you can hit anywhere to the body, much as in a duel to blood, the highly restricted target areas of the others I don't feel is fully realistic. Now I realize historical sources are not clear on if debilitation or first blood was the common mode of duel but it IS clear that duels to death and nothing short were rare in the extreme. If a sword cuts your arm heavily or your hand or your leg, you're tapping out unless it's a duel to the death... which was exceedingly rare historically in a duel context. At the point I've hit bone on their shin or sliced up their forearm honor is satisfied and we'll end it there. Some period sources do specify duel to incapacitation and not first blood, but even then if I've driven a 8mm wide point clear to your shinbone, or cut your arm, or slid my sword up into the muscles along your forearm, or even the most hated Epee strike, the hit to the top of the foot-- you are incapacitated, whether by pain (there's a reason that shins , instep, and inner arms are strike points martial artists aim for) or by blood slicking your grip or by a sudden realization of your mortality brought on by the fact you are now bleeding all over your shirt.
Likewise I always felt the "tempo" rules of the foil were fully unrealistic, if you are good enough to put your opponent on his heels and keep him there you will not allow him a counterstrike, no you will keep up pressure and shatter his nerve before puncturing his torso or face. So the saber and the epee get realism points there.
My question about the video is that I was taught the target areas for saber were limited to what a long-sleeved shirt would cover, not the full body, I may be wrong however.
You are right about the sabre target. It's everything from the waist up.
pistol grip is actually genious - ideal for a thrust weapon, it's just an improvement on ricasso-type grips
It'd be interesting to see the introduction of the pistol grip into a HEMA-like environment to see how it fairs against more traditional methods.
As some form of retro science fiction or something.
You are really good! Those subs are well deserved.
Can you learn fencing using a fence?
Yes
In theory, yes
Sound quality - sh*t
Video content quality - shiny!
Space walrus hahaha! Not all I got out of this, but that & the illustration amused. Am learning a lot, still terms I need to nail down. Oh Google...
There is a small amount (and I mean small) of carryover from Olympic sabre, some of it in basic attacks and some in basic footwork in HEMA saber fencing, at least in some styles. But there is a wide variety of saber fencing schools and techniques that depart greatly, so the crossover can be minimal. A major drawback of Olympic sabre vs HEMA saber is the use of the piste, it's too closed of an area and changes the possible angles of attack. Olympic sabre would be radically improved if a full circular combat stage were used, far more realistic, but then again, we would have to include attacks to the legs too. Your point about after-blows is spot on, and such a glaring area of fault in Olympic fencing that it decreases any martial realism to the point of being a game.
I can see where there is a possibility that foil or epee could have some crossover with rapier or smallsword, but I'm not experienced with either to be able to render an opinion. Great video, I'm new to your channel from Skallagrim and Scholagladiatoria and have happily subscribed. Thank you.
+Metatron I'm going to do a response to this video in my channel. I understand that you speak spanish as well then i'm going to do it in that language because I could explain better my experience. If you think you could not understand me (and if you see this comment) please tell me as soon as you can to do my video in english.
My Spanish is still rather basic so I think English would be mostly appreciated ;)
Very good then friend, I'll do my best.
You know I'm uploading the video right now but I'm feeling afraid of people start saying bad things about me or something and make me look like and idiot for my english or something I said. It's that normal? XD
Never underestimate space walruses, certainly never get in a sword fight with one. I can tell you from experience it's bad news.
Epee is combat and makes me feel like a thug...
Sabre is perfect for theatrical fighting and makes me feel like a magnificient bastard.
Foil is art for the sake of art and makes me feel like the fearie king, embodiment of grace and precision.
My focus obviously lies on a different aspect of fencing than yours and I much, much preferred the latter two to just going in and starting to stab, trying to make my light light up first... epee is just kind of brutal, like a Wanderlei Silva led MMA training facility...
In Sweden you are not allowed too begin with sabre (sabel) or the rapier (värja) but must begin with foil (florett) because it has the most restrictive rules and the thinking is that if you gegin with that you can more easily pass to the other swords when youa re more experienced, but the ohter route is more difficult. Supposedly the restrictive nature of foil would make it easier for beginners.
What you call the pistol grip we called the "handicap grip". Very few liked it here, and almost no one used it.
Interesting to see that the philosophies differ so much within the same sport.
Same here, but only if you start as a child. If you start as an adult you skip that, unless you actually want to do foil
Christopher Silverberg I practiced foil at high level for many years and at high level you have to use the ergonomic grip. Otherwise you will not stand a chance against same level opponents.
foil is the only weapon DESIGNED as a training weapon (for an encounter not guided by any rules!). So (paradoxically) its rules emphasize the good habit of hitting w/o getting hit. for that epee is the worst of the three weapons.
Metatron I guess that is why, I was 10-12 years old, when I practiced fencing for about 2 years. I had a very good teacher though, Orvar Jönsson, who fought at the Olympics and who previously coached the national olympic team. Was probably a waste on me though since I was not that good. ;)
I also want to make a correction, the official name for the pistol grip was "orthopedic grip" but for us children we interpreted that as for handicapped people so no one wanted to use it, I saw rather few of the adults use it as well.
I think it’s a bit of a disservice giving this conclusion after only trying it for such a short time, as even if you train 3~4 times a week for a year one would still be considered a rookie that has yet to grasp the basic concept and very likely still haven’t developed the muscles to perform the correct actions. I only really grasped the concept behind Olympic fencing after three years of practicing foil, and that’s pretty much how long it took me to learn how to hold a foil properly(and to build up muscle strength). One thing I would change for teaching starters tho is I definitely would start them up with French grips, as it teaches them how to hold the grip correctly(yes, you’re supposed to hold them the same way) and inexperienced player often complain about pain or stress in their hands with pistols when it’s more them just holding it wrong.
Also I think there’s a big misconception surrounding “right of way”, especially in regards of foil. It is true that RoW made it so the attacker only needs to land their hit, and the defender needs to hit without getting hit. Which might seem artificial and unfair at first, but in fact the odds of an attack getting through on the first attempt is very low, which gives avoiding hits a far higher priority and pretty much most of the double lights you see involves one side not being able to defend th selves properly, and loses point for it
hehe i started out similiar to you sadly my club only offered epee and foil and for starters...just foil. I also had no idea about hema back then, and definitely no club around so i stuck to foil, but it always bothered me and i was quite bad cause i thought realisticly. I aimed for hands and feet even though that gave no points, i always left the track as i tried to evade hits or strike from an unexpected angle. i parried a looot and always tried to bind the opponents blade before attacking myself to be risk free.
So in my oppinion things that make you good at hema make you suck at fencing.
I also ahd arguments with my 2 female instructors about the grip and the general idea to jump into someones blade to score a point by hitting a tenth of a second first and taking the opponents blade to the heart for hitting him n the shoulder quicker...well i also quit quite soon^^
But before that i got my french grip i argued that it gives me just a liiitle bit more reach
Olympic fencing is basically a game of tag with long stiff wires. I don't think it should be called "fencing" anymore.
Well you know nothing about Olympic fencing apparently.
He probably didn't pay much attention to the video and means foil.
All Olympic Fencing is wimpy, Sable, Sword and Foil.
Sure it looks pretty, but so does a headless statue in a museum, doesn't mean it's of any use.
It has a use. As entertainment, as a sport, or just as physical exercise. Its not the same use it use to have but the same could be said of most swords. Soldiers dont use swords anymore but that dosent make them useless.
The only difference is that you're hitting people with larger pieces of metal in hema
Is there anything you don't have experience with? hahah 😜
L iam - your mom!.... wait, that is not how you use this joke
L iam good question
KaptajnKaffe lmao (don't use that joke again, you don't want to get in trouble by sensitive butt hurt children lol)
Usually I can go along with what he says and see the value of what he says but on the subject of fencing it seems like he had a fantasy in his head and when the sport was not as he expected it embittered him towards it all in general honestly it should be like everything and if it interests you give it a try dont take what he's saying off of his experience and apply it to you
Basically, I agree with you about the grip. When I trained, I used the Spanish grip which has since been outlawed in fencing. I never thought well of the pistol grip. I don't care if it does provide better control. Then again, I didn't care much for the French grip, either. It seemed too slim to properly grip well.
i'm the world's best fencer, and my neighbours may agree that I'm also an excellent painter and grass cutter and toilet unclogger.
I practice HEMA and Olympic Epeé, I practice HEMA first and when I started Epeé I used the french grip against my coaches will, it turns out the pistol grip is better for a traditional swordfighting style that involves blade work, blade contact, and blade manipulation, I now fence only pistol grip and regret defying my coach.
As long as they don't try putting a pistol grip on my zweihander, they can keep playing with their tv aerials.
Very interesting video!
Metatron, I'd like to know more about unarmed martial arts during battles, maybe in western medieval times, or also in Japan culture during the centuries (that might be even more interesting). A comparison would be awesome too. Do you know something about the topic? I'm interested since I practice traditional Jujitsu (not the brazilian crappy modern one).
Anyway I like all your videos, they always teach me something!
So you have less than a year experience in fencing yet think you are qualified to criticize Olympic level fencing? Did you compete during that time? Did you qualify for any ranking during that time? Kendo is no less watered down as a practice as fencing is. You are too young to even truly know anything about either.
You don't need do something for years to be able to criticise something about it, also competing isn't going to make his opinions less/more valid. Might want to drop the condescending end sentences as well, makes you seem like an arsehole and is unlikely to lead to a conversation worth having
Fencing is a sport that incorporates combat concepts. It is in no way supposed to simulate actual combat. That is why a touché to the tip of the foot is equivalent to one to the neck.
Actually that’s the duelling rule actually adopted in the history(epee only)
3:25 I am so offended man I have fenced for very long saying this makes me unsubscribe sorry man.
Edit: 5:20 ok man I’m done with you come on, the pistol grip is better for so many reasons. You have better point control and grip, pressure attacks are much easier, and they are less of a hassle to hold!
Lol this video is 2 years old also this isnt as rude as the video on that medival wwe video he made
I honestly agree
Is it possible to create a fourth modality in sport fencing, epee rules with the Sabre slash attacks? Would there be a problem with the electric gear?
I have some experience w/ Kendo. My Senpai has sparred quite a bit against numerous Kendoka from at least 1 or 2 Kendi schools and I interact w/ Kendoka and Sport Fencers on a regular basis as part of my job as a PE Teacher. I can say the skillset of learning Kendo doesn't necessarily transfer very well to HEMA at all. I think Matt Easton did mention that as well. My background in RBSD & Combatives as well as Shingen Ryu Battou Jutsu (Kenjutsu), Archipelago Combatives and HEMA has shown me that neither sport prepares you for any pracical fighting. Yes I consider Kendo as strictly a sport, not a Martial Art...
“Untrained scrawny space walrus”
Well, Olympic fencing is wire-tag at light speed. It ain't a life or death battle, but none of that means it's not cool or fun.
The closest thing to hema I have experienced is largo Mano Arnis/Escrima. I believe that Fma is unique, but has also retained much of traditional European blade technique. I enjoy your channel spore fencing is a fun activity for the young that has almost nothing to do with actual martial practice.
i always envisionned myself being able to realise 1 1/2 move before someone retaliate ( for exemple swing once, then recover and prepare for the next move, wether it be a parry or strike)
Good Lord, It's so cool to see I'm not the only freak since my young years...
Another thing when I studied Judo after being a high school wrestler I had to relearn that my head is not used to parry with and the floor is not a mat. Sensei said I was from the Kamikaze School of Judo.
Can we just change the name of Olympic fencing so we can stop comparing it to historical. There nothing alike who cares.
I feel like you don't fully understand that fencing'S goal and purpose isn't to represent historical duels and or try to replicate it, maybe it once was but not anymore. It is a sport, like basketball, tennis, and it has its own rules and techniques.
Don't shit on the foil, man, it feels freaking awesome wielding one and it is scary as hell to have one break in front of your ribcage because you stepped into the attack like a fool.
9:22 This was the problem I had with Martial Arts. When I was really young (Elementary) I was enrolled in Aikido. But I didnt like it. Because ti was just rolling and standing still while things happens. I know that it was jut beginning and that Martial Arts you learn very small first and then it evolves into actual fighting, but as a child I could not get into it because it was boring. Again, I don't mean to offend and Martial Arts Practitioners, but to an elementary schooler, it was very very very boring.
I started fencing at the recommendation of a HEMA practitioner that I met in Britain. The reason he recommended it as a starting point was because it would train my body to react quickly to sudden attacks and would give me basic ground work to build upon. I was very lucky that the instructor at my university was a man who would teach the competitive techniques, but also taught the original techniques and then explained why they fell out of use in competitive fencing. He also added Italian longsword into the cycle of classes that he does. In that class, one of the students asked what techniques would be allowed in a fight with longswords. His response was "Anything that works. If they leave their crotch unguarded, kick them there. If the come in to grapple, bite them if you have to. The techniques I'm teaching aren't to be used on the field of honor. This scenario would be that someone is coming at me with a sword and only one of us is walking away, and I'd use every dirty trick in the book to make sure it was me walking away."
Hi dude. This reply is just for the sake of achieving the closest we have to time travel. This was from 6 years ago, would love to hear how you are doing now.
@@its_dey_mate i second this
same how are you doing now?
The problem is not fencing as a sport, the problem was the mismatch between your interests and expectations and what Olympic fencing is. When people are trying to practice and prepare for tournaments and bouts, having someone complaining about the pistol grip being historically inaccurate is a distraction, which may have irritated your teacher. My college fencing club actually started explaining to new club members that fencing is an athletic sport and not historical simulation so that people who really want to do HEMA don't waste their time. I'm glad you found HEMA, but clearly, Olympic fencing is for you what golf is for me - a sport you don't like.
This is the most truth I've heard from a RUclips comment in a long time. Thank you for saying this.
Exactly
Golf is good!
Honestly though, I kinda get the pistol grip complaints. Historical accuracy be damned, the idea of fencing with that just looks weird and weirdness takes away from the coolness of a sword. Still interested in fencing though
@@Stryfe52 For most people, pistol grips just work better for Olympic foil and epee fencing. If you actually start fencing, the grip will stop looking weird very quickly. French and Italian grips that don't look like the pistol grip are perfectly legal (or you can just fence saber where pistol grips are never used), and you can use them if you want, but there's a reason you'll find yourself in a small minority if you do. Fencers choose their equipment to maximize their chances of winning, and among fencers, nothing makes you look cooler than winning!
But there are literal olympic athletes especially in Epee that use french grip. So its kind of rude for the teacher to "block" using it. She can say that generally people prefer pistol grips for XY reasons but some use the french grip for XY reasons and that the pistol grip is considered "better". Then if he insist, let him use the french grip.
My math teacher in grade 8/9 was teaching us about multiplying polynomials, specifically through the FOIL technique (First Outside Inside Last). On the work sheet was a picture of a fencing sword!
...
It was an epee.
Math I was forced to learn that I never used. So many years later, for what?
to develop better problem solving skills
***** In that case, they should force kids to play video games that require solving problems.
***** Also, you didn't prove that it helped me solve problems outside of the classroom. The problems of polynomials and imaginary numbers and the like have never been in my life outside of the indoctrination center where they stole from my life to make me answer problems irrelevant to my life. Society stole from my life for no good reason.
***** Oh. One last point: Ballet helps kids to be healthy, so we should force them to take ballet classes. They are actually relevant for EVERY life since everyone needs health. Do you have a problem with forcing ballet? :-) With forcing video games on everyone, to be healthy or solve problems, respectively? Anyone who defends the system is an accomplice to theft of many months of millions of people's lives. Don't be an accomplice.
As someone who has fenced Sabre for six years, I can definitely confirm that fencing is not by any means a "sword fight." It is, like you said, a sport. Sadly, I think that going into it hoping that it would be more than that is probably why you ended up dropping it. Yes, there are a few practical uses of it, but it is far from what a lot of people hope it is when they start it. Many people end up dropping fencing once they realize this, however as someone who has stuck with it for many years I can assure you that in terms of strategy it does become more complicated, and new moves are introduced, but for the most part it just stays the (lovable) sport that it is. Besides for the screaming, which has become the plague of Sabre tournaments now (as the directors allow glass shattering screeching from the girls for some reason), I feel it is still a pretty rewarding sport to keep up with :)
Respect.
"Besides for the screaming, which has become the plague of Sabre tournaments" - lol why do the women scream???
God....working an RJCC last weekend...cadet women's sabre....I do not know HOW you scream like that and not call every dog for miles.
Violence of action. The "Ki" shout as it were.
Why fence only sabre? I do all 3 not competitively but for fun it's a lot better in my opinoin to do classical fencing and speed rounds then tournaments but that's just my opinoin I'd love to hear what you think and what's your favorite part of fencing my favorite part is making friends
I was a European fencer with epee for 12 years and switched to Kendo 16 years ago. I know both very well my accumulated experience is 28 years, so to say :). I participated in many European Worldcup Tournaments in fencing, in several European Championships in Kendo and I'm a go-dan now.
In fact fencing helps a lot. But only much later not in the beginning. Movement and technique are very different but the tactical concepts are still very similar and you need the same killer instinct.
But at the end it's always a "game". No blood, no kills. And that's a good thing.
Harald Hofer Respect !
Harald Hofer , Why stick with Kendo so long after your epee experience?
Yes! Fencing teaches you how to measure distance like no other sport. As a 10 year nationally ranked fencer, I found that these skilled heavily carried over to my wrestling and boxing
I mean measure and all is fine, but neither of these sports put any value on defense really and thats where they fall flat.
As in, no sport that ignores afterblows can come anywhere close to a fight.
@@merlball8520 because it's so much fun... 😁
fencing is for whimps, real men throw pommels!
Real men come up with original jokes.
Ranziel1 you sure foiled that guy
ranziel ended travis rightly
You must end him rightly!
*SCA rapier melee, throws pommel
You would have enjoyed sabre alot more. Pistol grip does not exist in sabre fencing, at least not that I have seen. You also get to slash as well as stab, which opens up alot of moves and more swinging motion.
Look, fencing is a sport. View it the same way you would view boxing. Yea it will help in a sword fight against an untrained guy, but it would likely lose to just about every other sword style out there thats actually designed for combat. Fencing is not. It is a sport that evolved from combat into just that: a sport.
Aaron Paul I personally hate sabre fencing, did epee fencing for 8 years and at some point our clubs sabre fencers asked me to join them for practice so did that as well on the side for 2-3 years but I hated it so much that if you have a bad referee, the match will be horrible.. I know I might sound like I'm making up excuses but I just got the feeling that it's too much of a referee sport to decide who has the advantage in a situation.. At the point when referee feels like third participant in the match, it's all wrong.
Boxing is useful in hand to hand combat, just as TKD, Karate and other fully stand-up forms are. Perhaps more useful than the point sparring tournaments in the latter two that I mentioned, but in a real fight it is still incomplete. Only MMA, which incorporates boxing with the awareness and tactical understanding of the possibility of being pulled off of your feet, is a truly complete hand-to-hand combat system. Boxing has proven more effective and useful in recent years of MMA competition as boxers and kickboxers have become more rounded and skilled at defending against takedowns and capitalizing on the shortcomings of many grapplers who thought that they would alway be able to get away with only knowing grappling, but takedown defense requires a slight adjustment to the traditional boxing stance and style of defense. Boxing defense tends to focus on head and torso movement and without fear of takedowns, a good defensive boxer can frequently drop most of their weight to their back foot while avoiding combinations but in MMA, this opens you up for feinted takedown maneuvers. That's why even experienced boxers have learned to avoid this and slightly adjust their stance to remained prepared for takedown defense when fighting in MMA. Either that or be like Anderson Silva, who was so good with BJJ submissions from his back that he could carry a traditional boxing stance without concern since he could effectively defend and submit his opponent after a successful takedown.
lutin grognon
Lol like you would beat a pro saber fencer. You couldn't even come closer to him. He would beat you on footwork alone. Of course fencing will give you a great advantage to a normal person, same as boxing. Give Szilagy a couple of weeks of training and I doubt even the best HEMA fighter could beat him
Roberto Calvo I realize how fencer talks like a ballerina, boasting how powerful their « footwork » are with their legs in tights. Well unfortunately historically fencing technique will be worse then useless in real fight, since all single hand swords were used along with shields, which make most of the fencing techniques redundant if not dangerous. Another popular weapon will be polearms like halberd which were heavier and longer reach then your sword making your moves suicidial. Not to mention they all wore armour historical making your weapon completely useless even it hit on the enemy.
Even in horseback fighting there were also technique of circling enemy with agile horses (which hussars like to use), unlike the well narrowed stage in fencing sport which forbids much movement
@Remove Talos
Footwork, timing and distance control are extremely important in sword fighting, all of those are taught in fencing. Most HEMA clubs never emphasize those as much as they should.
When i was first learning fencing, I started with a straight grip, and it wasn't "bad" for fencing, but when i began using a pistol grip, i found my movements and thrusts to be much more fluid. At this point i still prefer the pistol group for the purpose of fencing.
Pistol grip is the bomb
I also like swords, and I prefer the French grip, but unlike you I love fencing and the idea of an 18th or 19th century gentlemen's duel. I never really was fixated on MEDIEVAL swordsmanship. And besides, with my skill in fencing, I feel that I can use pretty much any sword with some success. Also I came to really admire Fencing for what it is, or is descended from - it has such precision and technique!
As someone who has a year of foil experience i can say that those swords aren't as wobbly as they appear the reason they appear so is because of the incredible speed and strength of the olympians that for some reason Elitists like to compare all of fencing to.
And also an optical illusion :), as the fencers are gamboling as well so their hands go up and down too. Similar like our childhood's "wobbly pencil" trick. I've had the same experience with epee. When I was given a handful of blades to choose from, my first reaction was: "wow, this is rigid" (compared to what I've expected).
I like your videos, but this one doesn't make much sense... Olympic fencing is a SPORT. it is not meant to be a historical knight fight reenactment XD. I used to do foil fencing myself. Of course thats not realistic combat... It never was meant to be... Foil is the most technical weapon out of the three.
For people who don't know: both Foil and Epee are thrust weapons only. In Epee, all targets are valid. From the foor to the helmet. In Foil, only the body and crotch (lol) are. Arms, Helmets and legs are not valid. The Epee is a very stiff triangular blade, while the foil is a small rectangular blade that is very bendy. You can actually hit your opponent in the back in foil (would technically be legal in Epee, but good luck bending that triangular blade XD). In Sabre, everything from the waist up is valid, and you can both thrust and slash. The blade is also triangular, so it's quite stiff. It is not as fat as the Epee. There are other difference in the rules as well between the three weapons but I guess that gives you guys an idea.
Fencing is a beutiful sport. But don't take it as a realistic fight reenactment... it's not! Its an individual sport, much like Tennis...
I think it may have been Matt Easton that addressed this point, but it might have been Skallagrim. Don't remember which it was, but one of the gentlemen made the point that the reason so many people /want/ to see Olympic Fencing as "real sword fighting!" is because until Hema started getting mainstream (something extremely recent), fencing and Kendo were the only widely available outlets for learning how to (in theory) handle a sword. Because fencing, for a long time has been, at least on the surface, one of the only formal ways to PROPERLY learn to handle a sword, a lot of people have forced themselves into confirmation bias that "No, it's not just a sport it's real sword fighting, because that's what I came here to learn, because nowhere else taught it!"
turmat01 thank you someone who actually has experience in fencing like I. I get that people think fencing is a actual sword fight but in the end it’s just a sport and people don’t get it.
As you say Olympic fencing was never meant to be anything but a sport. By the time the Olympics came about swords were declining in military use. To be fair, early sport fencing schools were teaching fencing both as sport and for military use. Angelo's School of Arms was one if the first (if not the first) to shift toward the sport aspect, but even they also were teaching British infantry soldiers how to use their swords for realzies. They taught a method for real swordsmanship that could also be used for sport/physical fitness. Kinda like how military bootcamp is designed to condition you as a soldier, but you can also just use it as a fitness program. It became really popular as a sport and over time it shifted away from military focus and eventually dropped it entirely by the time Olympic fencing started. So it has its origins in real fencing and I personally can't fault anyone for being disappointed that it has lost that element.
I would like to see a 4th category added to the Olympics that goes back to earlier fencing rules emulating a real duel. You could call that a form of HEMA, but I'd be ok if it stayed sportified and just ditched certain rules. Keep the limited target areas but do away with right of way penalize doubles so that you can't just get one point and then double out in Epee.
Has anyone gone from HEMA to Olympic fencing? It would be neat to hear your experience.
heeeey... i like Foil!
for wrapping my food :^)
I did 5 years of fencing (foil) before moving onto HEMA and I have no regrets. it taught me to keep distance and good footwork.
I stopped listening to winged hussars for this video
*THEN THE WINGED METATRON ARRIVED*
InSanic lol
COMING DOWN THE MOUNTAIN SIDE!
I love how it's become a meme
Darth Guilder ...you went back to listening to it, right?
Hi Metatron :)
As a practicioner of both olympic and historical fencing (I am currently studying to become a Historical and Artristic Fencing Instructor at the Accademia Nazionale di Scherma), I have to say there's a point very few people grasp: They're the same discipline, but with different rulesets and weapons. Fencing, or "Scherma" is a martial art that goes beyond the weapon you're using.
There are universal pinciples (speed, tempo and timing, distance, strategy and tactics) that are applied differently based on what's the game that we're playing: if the game is killing each other with a sabre, for example, of course I will have to effectively parry your blow and riposte on the neck with a proper cut; but if the game is switching on a light with the right-of-way rule, I will just touch your blade and poke you on the arm, so that the referee gives me the point even if you scored a split second before me.
What doesn't change is the underlying mentality of the duellist.
The right-of-way rule was born as a mean to preserve duelling gentlemen's life, to maintain a better "frase d'armi" or construction of the conclusive action in order to avoid a double hit or "colpo delle due vedove". So it's actually one of the most "historical" components of modern olympic fencing.
What happened then, what created this aberration of fencing, is that the mean turned into an end, so all the technique is being thrown away in favour of this game of electrified tag. Probably to make it easier and accessible to more people. We leave theoretical discussion to enter FIE politics here, which I'm not really into.
And, tecnhically, REAL swordsmanship is dead and there's nothing we can do about it. We cannot practice ACTUAL swordfighting without dying, being badly injured or ending up in jail after the first bout. So we have to make compromise: olympic fencing is a good one, because it withholds all the technical and theoretical components of real fencing, even though the outcome is a bit crappy (but I'll make an exception for Epee here, which I think is the most HEMAish because it's non-conventional, and therefore more "realistic"... Yes, I'm an epeeist 😜); HEMA is another compromise, but in my opinion in the HEMA community there is too much pedantry on the interpretation of one or another specific treatise, and not enough good use of fencing principles, so the result is a bit crappy in HEMA competitions as well...
The best approach would be, in my opinion, to learn the proper mindset by attending foil (OH THE HORROR) or sabre lessons with a maestro (not instructor), and then move over to non-conventional fencing such as epee and/or longsword, sword and buckler etc.
Perhaps sooner or later I'll make a proper video about this point and explain better 🙂
Peace :D
P.S. Yes, when you start epee with no fencing background, it's better to use a pistol grip at first... The french one requires a bit more dexterity, so your instructor was right 😆
P.P.S. Epee also has, of course, a big aberration, which is a double point for a double hit, instead of 0 points. So if we're, say, 11-13 I will just attack over your attack and seek the double hit so that I score 15 before you. That's what makes me think that the best ruleset for historical fencing is one similar to epee, but with no points for the double.
Scoring boxes did also mean you would not need 5 ref's to watch a single match. Tournaments in the UK can struggle to get 1 ref for a match let alone 5.
The thing I also find when people use french grips is that they hold it too tightly and much like a club.
Thank you. As a fencer myself I love your reply.
Not totally dead... they do real duels in south american prisons (yeah, they fight to death). Of course, they dont use olympic stuff but home made, but the principle is the same, very long thin and flexible blades that can both cut and stab, being the stab the usual movement.
To be honest. I saw some video of HEMA tournaments and they tend to be emberrassing. I understand the mindset is "kill without dying", but I've seen too many people just running at each other, trying to move the opponent's weapon out of the way and then grappling in a very brawl-like manner. I lost all my interest in hema after seeing these competitions. I like technique, not brawling.
Always wanted to try fencing but I'm too short for it. I have many years of experience in semi-contact (which is a rule system in kick boxing that is extremely similar to fencing) and I painfully learned that height is a huge advantage.
He didn't read it anyways🤣
Both certainly have their benefits. I took Olympic fencing in college and was even top of my class. Like you, I absolutely hate the pistol grip, it's trash but I do understand why they insist. It's all about wrist alignment, with a French grip, your wrist is at an angle which slightly limits your tip control. The pistol grip allows for a downward parry without having to twist your wrist completely over to catch the low thrust.
What is the one hobby or art that you have actually stuck with? I ask because it seems that you practice many things relatively briefly and then quit them after finding "issues" with them.
Yildirim Indeed, this does seem to be the case. I suppose finding something you really, truly enjoy is sometimes difficult and may involve trying several options, but Metatron has 'issues' with so many things. Not only that, he feels the need to tell the whole world about it. Just try things and move on if necessary.
It’s a good question. Trying and not having things work out is important, though. We want to get the very best use of our time, not just something that is ok.
@@another3997 He feels the need to tell the whole world about it. Thats fine, because we feel the need to watch his videos. Nobody is forcing us.
@@another3997 And for some reason you feel the need to watch his videos abt it, strange huh
Hello Metatron! How would I go about contacting you personally? I don't mean via telephone or anything necessarily. It's about an Italian class project in University that requires an actual Italian citizen. And other then the people of the local Massolin di Fiori society (which haven't been answering my phone calls sadly), you're the only other Italian that I know, could you help me out? According to my teacher it should be really as simple as a single message. I would like to explain it a bit more in detail in private, but I don't know if RUclips has a PM system. Thank you in advance.
Please contact me on my facebook page "Raffaello Urbani"
I will, thank you very much.
I've sent you a friend request on Facebook since Facebook's message system is kind of complicated, since when you send to non-friends they end up on the "other" message box, and sometimes they don't show up at all.
Metatron , I just sent you friend request on fb , you do not have to reciprocate : is just so I can follow you .. love everything you have to say :D
Raf, I agree with your point, and that's the reason I chose the saber to train olimpic fencing when I was young.
At my city it was the closest thing to a real sword combat.
Best wishes
As someone who did Fencing for around a year of fencing with mostly foils but sometimes sabres I loved the Pistol grip. It felt right in the hand and the movements in fencing felt natural. It's a grip that was made for fencing. Fencing is a sport not combat and as a sport it's great but there are elements of it that can work in a martial context. The footwork you get from fencing is second to none and to this day even after years of not really practicing it I can easily close or widen my distance against an aggressor easily and if I'm carrying a knife I know I'm able to get close to anyone who wants to do me harm. While I ended up giving my foil, with the great pistol grip, away I like any Puerto Rican own a Machete, I still like to practice the sabre forms with it and fool around a bit. But yeah Olympic Fencing, specially with foils is mostly a points game. My teacher who trained the Olympic team use to say that back in his day people really hit each other hard so that the Judge could know who hit first but this days with electronic sensors mostly replacing Judges it became all about speed. I understand as someone who was more interested in Historical 14th Century Swordplay to not be a fan of modern Fencing equipment but there's a reason for it to be that way. A Pistol grip for example is great to protect your wrist and have the right form all the time while using a Foil. But with sabre for example you use a more classical sabre handle with hand cover so that is more similar to how a sabre was used in combat. With Swords it's pretty much anything you want to do, it's full body so there's more movement options.
That being said it's your equipment so a trainer forcing you to go to a Pistol Grip is definetely not good. A good teacher simply let's the student grab a couple of equipments and see which one calls to you so to speak. For foil fencing for me the pistol grip called me and I bought my own online at a bargain, you had to see the reaction in my dorm when a long ass box came for me lol.
You can't compare Fencing/Kendo/Medieval with a real life situation and say that Medieval has advantage over the others. Cos you don't get out in the streets and stab people. You might only do that in video games.
Thats as false as saying that an MMA fighter does not know how to fight because he only does it in the ring....come on man, the diference betwen fencing/kendo and HEMA is that fencing and kendo are sports, they have a set of rules that both restrict you and give you a core mindset and approach to the encounter. HEMA( historical European martial arts) is a martial art, a fighting sistem, its designed to provide options for any possibility you might encounter, be it cutting, thrusting, grappling, ground fighting, etc. Not only that but HEMA competitions try to be as less restrictive as safely possible, while at the same time trying to uphold the value of self preservation first and foremost when you fight.
To put it simply, fencing and kendo both strive to be a sport, entertaining, challenging, and fast paced. HEMA on the other had strives to be a martial art, an effective simulation on how to use a real sword in a real life or death situation and survive.....of course it has to make compromises, nobody is saying it perfectly represents every aspect of a real duel to the death, but it is the current closest representation, and it's in a constant effort to make itself closer and closer to reality.
As someone who mainly fences foil (currently a 'B' in USFA's system), consider this a contrary perspective. There seems to be a notion in the comments that foil is 'useless' outside the specific ruleset in modern fencing. That, to put it charitably, is BS. Foil as a discipline forces you to master a number of blade actions and distance management. You can't just turtle by forcing doubles, like you can in Epee. You have to parry and riposte. You can't just focus on low risk arm picks. You have to set up a deep attack to the torso. You can't rely on getting points through doubles. You have to take the initiative and set up attacks because of ROW. The closest analogy I can give you is learning tennis vs pickleball. Tennis forces you to use body rotation and master technique whereas pickleball is a lot more forgiving on form and athleticism.
It's quite well known within fencing that if you're sufficiently advanced in foil, you can pretty much switch to Epee without a lot of training and do well against anyone who is not a very high level competitor. As an example, I've never trained in Epee at all, but am currently a 'C' in USFA's system. Likewise, I've seen 'U's and 'E's (the lowest ratings currently possible) in foil consistently beat Bs and Cs in Epee when they try foil. At one of our in-house club tournaments, a foil fencer who'd only joined about a year earlier easily beat (5-1) an A rated Saber fencer who'd been fencing since he was 7. Put simply, the skills you develop in foil translate the best into other weapons and going the other way is far more difficult. So, no disrespect to your coach, but she should've insisted that you do at least a couple of months of foil.
I also practice HEMA rapier and smallsword (though mainly recreationally and somewhat for the scholarship) and foil translates even better to those depending on the ruleset. Once you're really good at distance and timing, even without knowing exact techniques, you can land covered hits against people who've only done HEMA just through footwork. Though they'll probably beat you if you get into a grapple.
Pistol grip vs french grip: I've fenced with both. I like fencing french when I'm at the club and sometimes use it competitively in Epee. In competitive foil though, you'd have to be idiot to pick french over pistol. The pistol grip pretty much forces your tip to point the right way. It's more or less impossible to dislodge the blade from your hand and your blade actions are a lot stronger. If I were teaching someone fencing, I'd probably start them out in french but basically tell them to switch to pistol if they have any desire to fence in a tournament.
I have not fenced or done hema. But i have done boxing since i was 15 and i used to think like you when it comes to terms with mma. I wanted to do mma for a long time but only had boxing available and i thought that it would be a disadvantage to spend all those years only working my hands.
Only now i realize how much i learned in boxing and that it was not any harder to unlearn bad habits than to learn new ones, which is also a reason you can see like kickboxers going into the ufc faster than a guy starting with mma from scratch.
I strongly believe it can be the same case with hema and fencing and if you wanna do hema but only have fencing available do the fencing. You definitely will learn hema easier with a background in fencing.
Totally agree with what you say. Many of the HEMA guys have fencing backgrounds.
As a foilist, I agree completely with your assessment of foil - it's a game, a modern sport, and it doesn't really represent historical sword fighting at all. I prefer the sport aspect of fencing, its athleticism.
You're a typical HEMA fanatic - you want to feel you're playing with a real sword. But modern fencing isn't about the weapon - matches are won and lost entirely on footwork, distance and timing. The weapon is incidental.
dzfz2100 lame.. history is sad
I am doing fencing for 8 years now. I think fencing is more for people who like 17th and 18th century swordfighting. I like both medieval as well as 17th and 18th century swordfighting. But i prefer want fencing. Oh. And a fun fact. On my club you can also learn on how to fight with bayonets on rifles.
It is fun to see all the butt hurt fencers in the comments. And in thier defence, the metatron basicly failed to do his homework. He was looking for an historically based martial art, and mistakenly thought fencing might be that. Truth is that modern fencing have about as mush to do with historic martial arts as olympic javelin throwing. Its a good sport and it will keep you in shape, but thats it.
What he was looking for was something like: ruclips.net/video/ykUJP78YYQc/видео.html
(edit for spelling and translation mistakes)
I just started HEMA, specifically German Longsword, and I find that my 3 year prior Kendo experience is helping me greatly, the primary thing I need to learn at the moment is stepping out of line and defending myself while making my attacks but there is a decent amount of carry over and I feel like it's helped me progress much quicker than I would have with no prior martial art experience.
A video shortly after 6. How early do you get up on weekdays?
foil is foundation for good epee because epee on its own you can be good but to excel you need to have a foundation in foil typically for fencers because in foil you learn how to parry repost, timing footwork beat attacks, etc all of which are important technical skills needed to defeat your opponent I think
Two changes would fix sport fencing. First is that the time between your hit and theirs needs to be greatly extended to at least a full second. Second is that double hits need to be punished so that sport fencers have to defend themselves rather than just worry about who touches the other one first.
In Epee yes.
That's not really how sport fencing works outside of Epee though. Foil and Sabre have priority systems where the person who first initiates an attack or who last makes a successful parry/riposte is awarded the point.
It's a massively oversimplified way to determine the winner of the fight, but it is rooted in historical systems; you'll get the same thing if you try to do Broadsword, military sabre, dussack, or even longsword in a modified capacity (see Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, or Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter).
I also like Matt Easton's videos ;)
Those problems only exist in Epee (the one Metatron apparently fenced).
No, there's no need to "fix" anything in fencing. In fact every time they try to do that it only causes more problems. The last time they messed with the foil timings it caused people to start using weird techniques to avoid hits... all because they wanted to "fix" it and get rid of flicking.
The thing is, fencing is a sport and it's not a simulation of sword fighting. If that's what you think sport fencing is or what you want it to be, then you're thinking about it wrong.
squiddypiddy even though it's based off the rapier, it's still very different from one. All of the weapons have some change from their original weapon (foil and small sword, saber and saber, epee and rapier).
Saber is probably closest to it's weapon but real sabers also have probably the most variation of the three based weapons.
Epee is the closest to the original dueling rules of first blood. However there's a reason the other two weapons didn't follow this in the first place.
Epee and Foil both came from the Small sword, which came from the Rapier
I have more than a decade in each of fencing, kendo and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (Filipino martial arts). The first two are clearly sports and the last a study of efficient ways to meet out death. Kali is a blade art, with the training principles equally applicable to sword, knife, stick and empty hands. It's goal is to dispatch the enemy quickly and to return you home safely. While there is less than lethal sparring the mindset is contra sport. My interest in kendo and fencing faded as I aged and my athleticism waned. My mind was still very sharp and my sport lethality was there, but the joint strain and lack of applicability of skills toward self defense dulled my zeal. The lethality of kali is more aging friendly and the use of an edged weapons lessons the need for maximum power and instead focuses on speed and accuracy. Nevertheless; all combat requires a sense of distance and timing and thus the years I spent in kendo and fencing have given me a combat sense way beyond my years of study. My body has aged considerably but my brain remains sharp and my ability to read an opponents intention is still strong. I consider myself, at best, a lower midlevel kali practitioner, but the blade skills I have learned give me substantial confidence that my array of perfectly legal pocket accessories are likely to keep me safe where ever I go. Takeaway - time spent learning any weapon art is not wasted. If you want to learn practical self defense applications, sport arts need to be set aside for those systems designed for real combat.
can you do a kali (arnis/escrima/fma) video?
theres a really good one done by funker tactical, search funker tactical kali then search funker tactical escrima
the first one is why filipino martial arts trainin is unrealistic and the second is must watch double stick beastmode and the truth about defanging the snake. id link them but youtube is a bitch about links in comments.
Gurren Gambit search doug marcaida.
bmxriderforlife1234 Magellan didn't say kali is unrealistic back in 1521 during the battle of mactan.
not racist actually, what im saying is watch his video because youll see what good kali looks like versus bad kali, the stuff is great but a lot of places dont teach it properly.
gurren gambit yeah back when people were still practicing it properly go watch the two videos i suggested and youll understand what i mean.
Not fearing for your life while fencing or practicing any kind of swordplay will kind of ruin the reality of it, but where would we end up if people would be killed in olympic fencing?
Same can be said with any risk/reward activity. Take poker for instance. If you remove risk of losing money then the game becomes shallow empty shell of what it supposed to be.
I think same can be said about sword fighting aswell. If you know your opponent could kill you then you would be very careful of what you are doing.
I personally think they could implement many rules in olympic fencing to make it more realistic, but i cant say for sure what other impact it would put on the sport. One rule that comes into mind is penalizing for reckless moves, but how would you judge it is another matter entirelly.
For me, it depends on how much experience they've had in either. Someone with a few months of Kendo is much easier to train than someone with a few months of foil, but also someone with YEARS of Kendo will be harder to train than someone with years of foil. In the end though the difference is small.
My favorite thing about taking on either group is watching their faces when I tell them they will never have to do that stupid duck walk ever again. I mean I guess we're screwed if Santa's elves attack, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. (Yes I know it builds leg strength, but there are so many other ways of doing that.)
If you think footwork is dumb and historically inaccurate, you probably are a weeb, or just a shitty longsword fencer who forgets other weapons existed.
@@jarrarwinks8470 Where did I say footwork is dumb?
Since I just started going back to classes for competition fencing, I feel this needs to be shared. The instructor commented on how we no longer think of them as swords, so we will do things you'd never do with a live blade. His suggestion? Hook the swords up to car batteries. "If you knew every time that hit you, you'd feel that zap, you'd focus a lot more on not getting hit."
the foil was invented to prepare for the duel. parry and attack is the most basic thing to survive. attacking the dead zones, the torso in particular, is much more effective than piercing a foot or an arm, and being killed by an instinctive riposte ... I suppose that the chevalier de Saint George, great French foilist of the eighteenth century and the most formidable duellist of his time would not say the opposite ... I like Metatron's analysis, even those little inaccuracies that allow us to intervene at the right moment.
Spot on. People who don't know fencing and don't know foil discount it without really understanding the background and history. And have never gone up against a good foilist...
No offense here, but your expectations were/are moderately cringey. You entered fencing not even knowing what HEMA even was, yet you basically expected to become a knight using a sport.
Matthew Pham ikr
You have a very odd accent. It sounds like a mixture between West-mids type English accent and a Eastern European Accent.
Have you lived in Italy all your live or have you moved around a bit?
I would consider it a mix between a southern English accent and a southern Italian accent as I am an Italian who has lived in England for a while (and in Japan but I have no Japanese influence in my English) so you weren't too far off :)
My accent is non-rhotic and in terms of pronunciation of single words it's southern English, but the intonation is were my Italian accent comes back, so this is why you feel it to be odd.
Normally when I go back and visit England my intonation goes back to English, but while living in Italy I am surrounded by Italians so my English does get influenced by that "melody"
It's amazing how accents and pronunciations of a majority influence the people around them.
Thank you for replying!
Tell me if I am wrong. You speak fast as Italian. So your english looks faster than average. As a French Canadian it is the same(even for people from france) we have a dialect that use some contractions. Like when we say: Il y a. We actualy say Ya. So we speak fast.
To me, he sounds like an Italian with very good English, enough to do the proper accent, but sometimes his native accento bleeds through. :)
Technically, foil is not a toy, it's a training aid for a short sword, which is a real actual lightweight weapon that was designed to be portable in cities and was carried around by the nobility. In fact, the nobility was obliged to wear a weapon. That weapon was supposed to be used against a guy protected by metal plates by poking in the holes in the armor. Also, the "ignoring the threat" thing also had its purpose in the training. It was supposed to help the learner to acquire the proper technique that is useful in combat. I'm assuming that the idea was: in a real combat, the fear of being cut will naturally come back. But applying good technique will make your hits more lethal, parries more effective and that advantage is what counts in a real combat. Look at Sabre for example: just scratch the opponent's arm and the lamp goes on. Or Epee: you touch opponent's toenail and you score the point - that only counts in 19'th century duels, but has nothing to do with combat. So, in my humble opinion, modern foil is closest of all three to what you need to prepare for a real combat on small swords. Of course, except for the flicks.
Wait a sec, you're Sicilian? Please make a video about it! The impression foreigners have of Sicilians is almost fantastical. Stuff like honor culture, hotheadedness, mafia-stuff.
The mindset is different. A sword fight is to kill someone while a sport is to collect points.
NICE RANT ! Metatron . Go play Roman legionary its much more interesting than your RANTING ! .
I did some fencing and found it so funny when friends would want to spar. One, in particular, would swing so wide and it was just so easy to dart in on a thrust and dart back and just keep hitting him and not ever being anywhere to get struck. This guy thought he knew sword fighting but he was all talk and it was fun to know a little and just put him in his place.
People who watch movies and swing a stick in their backyard afterwards never realize how much they telegraph all their moves