57 you say, but how many was a Fencing Duel? I mean anyone can build a fence, but it takes guts to duel, building against each other in all manner of haste and aggression
I started fencing at the recommendation of a HEMA practitioner that I met in Britain. The reason he recommended it as a starting point was because it would train my body to react quickly to sudden attacks and would give me basic ground work to build upon. I was very lucky that the instructor at my university was a man who would teach the competitive techniques, but also taught the original techniques and then explained why they fell out of use in competitive fencing. He also added Italian longsword into the cycle of classes that he does. In that class, one of the students asked what techniques would be allowed in a fight with longswords. His response was "Anything that works. If they leave their crotch unguarded, kick them there. If the come in to grapple, bite them if you have to. The techniques I'm teaching aren't to be used on the field of honor. This scenario would be that someone is coming at me with a sword and only one of us is walking away, and I'd use every dirty trick in the book to make sure it was me walking away."
Hi dude. This reply is just for the sake of achieving the closest we have to time travel. This was from 6 years ago, would love to hear how you are doing now.
The problem is not fencing as a sport, the problem was the mismatch between your interests and expectations and what Olympic fencing is. When people are trying to practice and prepare for tournaments and bouts, having someone complaining about the pistol grip being historically inaccurate is a distraction, which may have irritated your teacher. My college fencing club actually started explaining to new club members that fencing is an athletic sport and not historical simulation so that people who really want to do HEMA don't waste their time. I'm glad you found HEMA, but clearly, Olympic fencing is for you what golf is for me - a sport you don't like.
Golf is good! Honestly though, I kinda get the pistol grip complaints. Historical accuracy be damned, the idea of fencing with that just looks weird and weirdness takes away from the coolness of a sword. Still interested in fencing though
@@Stryfe52 For most people, pistol grips just work better for Olympic foil and epee fencing. If you actually start fencing, the grip will stop looking weird very quickly. French and Italian grips that don't look like the pistol grip are perfectly legal (or you can just fence saber where pistol grips are never used), and you can use them if you want, but there's a reason you'll find yourself in a small minority if you do. Fencers choose their equipment to maximize their chances of winning, and among fencers, nothing makes you look cooler than winning!
But there are literal olympic athletes especially in Epee that use french grip. So its kind of rude for the teacher to "block" using it. She can say that generally people prefer pistol grips for XY reasons but some use the french grip for XY reasons and that the pistol grip is considered "better". Then if he insist, let him use the french grip.
As someone who has fenced Sabre for six years, I can definitely confirm that fencing is not by any means a "sword fight." It is, like you said, a sport. Sadly, I think that going into it hoping that it would be more than that is probably why you ended up dropping it. Yes, there are a few practical uses of it, but it is far from what a lot of people hope it is when they start it. Many people end up dropping fencing once they realize this, however as someone who has stuck with it for many years I can assure you that in terms of strategy it does become more complicated, and new moves are introduced, but for the most part it just stays the (lovable) sport that it is. Besides for the screaming, which has become the plague of Sabre tournaments now (as the directors allow glass shattering screeching from the girls for some reason), I feel it is still a pretty rewarding sport to keep up with :)
Why fence only sabre? I do all 3 not competitively but for fun it's a lot better in my opinoin to do classical fencing and speed rounds then tournaments but that's just my opinoin I'd love to hear what you think and what's your favorite part of fencing my favorite part is making friends
My math teacher in grade 8/9 was teaching us about multiplying polynomials, specifically through the FOIL technique (First Outside Inside Last). On the work sheet was a picture of a fencing sword! ... It was an epee.
BARBATUS 89 Really dude?? The Ballet point is a little stretch, the body needs activity in general that is why there are gym classes. Math is proven to develop problem solving, even for the every day life, by your comments it just seems that you had awful teachers
BARBATUS 89 1) Don't know about America, I'm Italian 2)Never said I was against ballet, I just said that it is not a good comparison with math 3) As I already said even if you'll never use polynomials, math trains your brain in a way that will make you better at decision making and problem solving in the every day life 4)I blame instructors because you still haven't got the fact that math is not just about solving equations 5) I Never defended the system, I'm defending math, totally different
BARBATUS 89 - chill dude. Many kids in America are fat because they eat very poor diets and they sit on their asses too much. Whether it is gym class, ballet, football, tennis, boxing, martial arts, weight training, dancing, parkour, whatever activity, you can still take these and not do them correctly, intensively enough, or not at all. Everyone doing ballet would make for a very boring world without a multitude of sports or entertainment. Let people decide which sporting activity they want to do, and don't over prescribe what they should do in their free time. Some people would just not be able to succeed at ballet anyway. Let those interested or with talent do it, but let's get kids playing more sport and doing more physical activity. A lot aren't and it is because they are just sitting watching tv or playing video games that is the problem not lack of ballet. As for your comments about maths and polynomials I agree to a certain extent, but whether it is used or not is irrelevant. If this were the case we wouldn't do history, chemistry, physics, in fact most subjects you don't use later in life. The thing is some people do and you can't know which of these subjects you will use. If by your reasoning you only have one maths class a year and this had been applied to where Albert Einstein went to school do you think he'd have become the scientist he was? No. New technologies and advancements in all areas come precisely because maths is taught. It is the foundation stone of physics and engineering, as well as all the indirect benefits of problem solving. You are like the Marie Antoinette of ballet - let them just take ballet and everything will be ok!!! The only way I would agree with you is if you can identify at a very early age what people are going to be then this could be possible, but kids develop at different ages and change their minds as they get older. Humans are not robots who can be trained in what they need at the time, not in certain disciplines anyway. If you want to stay stuck in the past with no technological development then go down your path. There would be a lot of good ballet, but not much else. Learning when you are in school is supposed to be fun. It is as much about finding what you are good at and what you want to be and just learning new things, having the world opened up to you so you can discover your own path. It shouldn't be prescribed in the path you describe. We need to develop and move forward. Without some of Einstein's theories we wouldn't have satellite communications, tv's, cellphones, nuclear power to name a few technologies. So what you say is absolute rubbish.
BARBATUS 89 A few initial comments and I will try and keep this short. Firstly everyone is different and has almost natural talents at something, whether it be physical or academic, social, or artistic. You can probably teach everyone ballet, and they'd probably get to a certain level, and it would improve their health, but they wouldn't all become as good as those natural at it, and some people who aren't very talented in that area would probably here it as much as you hate doing polynomials, maybe even to the extent that they write longest post ever on a social media site!!! Secondly both my parents are teachers so I know a little about this. Learning is not about learning facts, but understanding and interpreting so you can apply what you've learnt to other texts or other situations. That is how education has changed from how it was, even 30 years ago when I was in school. That's not to say remembering facts isn't a useful skill to have, but just being able to regurgitate facts does not show how intelligent someone is, it shows how good at regurgitating facts they are. Thirdly and I'm sure that I mentioned this in my post before. Just because you don't use polynomials doesn't mean that others don't. When you were forced to learn algebra and calculus I'm sure most people don't know what they want to do in life, and so it is part of a common curriculum so that those that end up in a profession is these have the necessary skills. Not having them at this time and you might never know if you like doing this kind of learning or are even naturally talented in this area. I did it too, I loved it at the time, but I don't use it at all now. I don't see it as a waste of time though because it taught me how to think laterally and problem solved in what I do now working in IT. You seem to think everything you can't remember now is a waste of time. I suppose if you were say a car mechanic now you'd think everything was a waste of time and everyone should have been learning how to fix cars instead of doing polynomials equations? But if you were say a astrophysicist you might think fixing a car was a waste of your time and you should have been doing polynomial equations instead. Sure there are more car mechanics than astrophysicists, but we still need the latter as we have had technological developments like microwave ovens and GPS on our smartphones that come from having people study and work in these areas. You are a Neanderthal if you think like this. We may as well just go back to living in caves, well you can, I'll stick to the world as it is now, moving forward. I can tell now what kind of person you are. You don't believe in evolution, you don't believe in Einstein, but the fact you are writing this at all is down to the theories he proposed because we wouldn't have modern day computers or other devices without this. This is fact. Polynomials and Einstein Law of General Relativity describes how satellites orbit the earth and accounts for things that aren't experience as much here on earth did to things like the speed of the satellite being fast and this having effects on how time is experienced by it as it moves around the planet. Lastly it isn't about defending grief, greed, they, warmongering, or anything else like this. These are things humans have done to reach other and aren't in the slightest anything to do with science and technology. Science and technology has done far more good for mankind than you'll ever know. It is just that some men and women make bad decisions, usually in self interest and things can go down a path that leads to very bad place. You really are dumb if you think a voluntary basis to schooling is the right way to go. No kid is going to learn anything if you do this, they'd much prefer to be out there playing in the mud, and not learn anything useful that would benefit them in living their lives. Kids should be encouraged to try and find something they enjoy, which is often the thing they are good at. If every kid tries out ballet then I have no problem with this. Those that have and interest, like it, or are good at it will continue to do it. We don't need to force it on anyone. Those who prefer football can do football, those who like tennis can do tennis, and we find the best fit for everyone. As long as every child does something that keeps them fit there is no problem. Forcing people to do ballet when they don't want to is what the Communists in the Soviet Union would have done. And before you comment but you're forcing kids to do polynomials, well that is different. There are certain subjects that are core because they develop skills necessary for later in life and might benefit human kind down the line. You are so in school I'm guessing from some of your comments? If you are and you are being just taught facts then wherever you are the school and the teachers are bad. That or what and how they are being told to teach you is wrong. I'm guessing you are in the States somewhere because kids just aren't taught that way here in the UK anymore, not for the last 30 years anyway. If you think you have mocked me and debunked anything I've said you are wrong and deluding yourself. You seem to be quite intelligent and can put arguments together, but you don't know very much. I wish you a lot of luck in the future, and with your ballet.
I was a European fencer with epee for 12 years and switched to Kendo 16 years ago. I know both very well my accumulated experience is 28 years, so to say :). I participated in many European Worldcup Tournaments in fencing, in several European Championships in Kendo and I'm a go-dan now. In fact fencing helps a lot. But only much later not in the beginning. Movement and technique are very different but the tactical concepts are still very similar and you need the same killer instinct. But at the end it's always a "game". No blood, no kills. And that's a good thing.
Yes! Fencing teaches you how to measure distance like no other sport. As a 10 year nationally ranked fencer, I found that these skilled heavily carried over to my wrestling and boxing
I mean measure and all is fine, but neither of these sports put any value on defense really and thats where they fall flat. As in, no sport that ignores afterblows can come anywhere close to a fight.
As a long life fencer: having a problem with fencing as a martial arts, is like having a problem with tennis as a wrong representation of shooting a bow and arrow. In other words, it doesn't make sense. I love fencing, and I completely respect that you were disappointed in it because you wanted something more real to life, not a sports activity. But no fencing teacher worth its weight is going to claim he/she will teach you a viable martial arts. If they do, find another teacher please. Can fencers gain inspiration from martial arts such as HEMA or kendo? Sure, they are completely free to do so, but that is only to broaden their fencing experience.
@@milewesler9592 Replace 'bow and arrow' with real tennis (i.e the style of tennis that Henry VIII would've played) and the OP's point still stands. Sure, it's an interesting game (I've even given it a go) and really fun in its own right, but it's not modern lawn tennis where having a massive serve is 70% of the game, you can bounce off walls and most of the game is actually about the 'chase' (which doesn't exist in the modern game). Source: I'm a 5.0 USTA and an aggressive noob at real tennis. Fencing is the lawn tennis equivalent of HEMA/martial art. Is it inspired by actual smallsword/saber techniques? Yup. Will practicing fencing make you better at using the actual weapons? Generally no, though there are some transferable skills (similar to lawn vs real tennis) -- I practice smallsword and rapier at a HEMA club in addition to olympic foil and most of my HEMA is just foil with a different coat of paint. The footwork, distance and parries carry over magnificently.
As someone who mainly fences foil (currently a 'B' in USFA's system), consider this a contrary perspective. There seems to be a notion in the comments that foil is 'useless' outside the specific ruleset in modern fencing. That, to put it charitably, is BS. Foil as a discipline forces you to master a number of blade actions and distance management. You can't just turtle by forcing doubles, like you can in Epee. You have to parry and riposte. You can't just focus on low risk arm picks. You have to set up a deep attack to the torso. You can't rely on getting points through doubles. You have to take the initiative and set up attacks because of ROW. The closest analogy I can give you is learning tennis vs pickleball. Tennis forces you to use body rotation and master technique whereas pickleball is a lot more forgiving on form and athleticism. It's quite well known within fencing that if you're sufficiently advanced in foil, you can pretty much switch to Epee without a lot of training and do well against anyone who is not a very high level competitor. As an example, I've never trained in Epee at all, but am currently a 'C' in USFA's system. Likewise, I've seen 'U's and 'E's (the lowest ratings currently possible) in foil consistently beat Bs and Cs in Epee when they try foil. At one of our in-house club tournaments, a foil fencer who'd only joined about a year earlier easily beat (5-1) an A rated Saber fencer who'd been fencing since he was 7. Put simply, the skills you develop in foil translate the best into other weapons and going the other way is far more difficult. So, no disrespect to your coach, but she should've insisted that you do at least a couple of months of foil. I also practice HEMA rapier and smallsword (though mainly recreationally and somewhat for the scholarship) and foil translates even better to those depending on the ruleset. Once you're really good at distance and timing, even without knowing exact techniques, you can land covered hits against people who've only done HEMA just through footwork. Though they'll probably beat you if you get into a grapple. Pistol grip vs french grip: I've fenced with both. I like fencing french when I'm at the club and sometimes use it competitively in Epee. In competitive foil though, you'd have to be idiot to pick french over pistol. The pistol grip pretty much forces your tip to point the right way. It's more or less impossible to dislodge the blade from your hand and your blade actions are a lot stronger. If I were teaching someone fencing, I'd probably start them out in french but basically tell them to switch to pistol if they have any desire to fence in a tournament.
You would have enjoyed sabre alot more. Pistol grip does not exist in sabre fencing, at least not that I have seen. You also get to slash as well as stab, which opens up alot of moves and more swinging motion. Look, fencing is a sport. View it the same way you would view boxing. Yea it will help in a sword fight against an untrained guy, but it would likely lose to just about every other sword style out there thats actually designed for combat. Fencing is not. It is a sport that evolved from combat into just that: a sport.
Aaron Paul I personally hate sabre fencing, did epee fencing for 8 years and at some point our clubs sabre fencers asked me to join them for practice so did that as well on the side for 2-3 years but I hated it so much that if you have a bad referee, the match will be horrible.. I know I might sound like I'm making up excuses but I just got the feeling that it's too much of a referee sport to decide who has the advantage in a situation.. At the point when referee feels like third participant in the match, it's all wrong.
Boxing is useful in hand to hand combat, just as TKD, Karate and other fully stand-up forms are. Perhaps more useful than the point sparring tournaments in the latter two that I mentioned, but in a real fight it is still incomplete. Only MMA, which incorporates boxing with the awareness and tactical understanding of the possibility of being pulled off of your feet, is a truly complete hand-to-hand combat system. Boxing has proven more effective and useful in recent years of MMA competition as boxers and kickboxers have become more rounded and skilled at defending against takedowns and capitalizing on the shortcomings of many grapplers who thought that they would alway be able to get away with only knowing grappling, but takedown defense requires a slight adjustment to the traditional boxing stance and style of defense. Boxing defense tends to focus on head and torso movement and without fear of takedowns, a good defensive boxer can frequently drop most of their weight to their back foot while avoiding combinations but in MMA, this opens you up for feinted takedown maneuvers. That's why even experienced boxers have learned to avoid this and slightly adjust their stance to remained prepared for takedown defense when fighting in MMA. Either that or be like Anderson Silva, who was so good with BJJ submissions from his back that he could carry a traditional boxing stance without concern since he could effectively defend and submit his opponent after a successful takedown.
lutin grognon Lol like you would beat a pro saber fencer. You couldn't even come closer to him. He would beat you on footwork alone. Of course fencing will give you a great advantage to a normal person, same as boxing. Give Szilagy a couple of weeks of training and I doubt even the best HEMA fighter could beat him
Roberto Calvo I realize how fencer talks like a ballerina, boasting how powerful their « footwork » are with their legs in tights. Well unfortunately historically fencing technique will be worse then useless in real fight, since all single hand swords were used along with shields, which make most of the fencing techniques redundant if not dangerous. Another popular weapon will be polearms like halberd which were heavier and longer reach then your sword making your moves suicidial. Not to mention they all wore armour historical making your weapon completely useless even it hit on the enemy. Even in horseback fighting there were also technique of circling enemy with agile horses (which hussars like to use), unlike the well narrowed stage in fencing sport which forbids much movement
@Remove Talos Footwork, timing and distance control are extremely important in sword fighting, all of those are taught in fencing. Most HEMA clubs never emphasize those as much as they should.
I know competitive fencers sometimes sort of patronize HEMA folks, which is unfortunate. Speaking as a long time and very high level sport Sabre fencer, as well as a long time disciple of both German and Italian longsword, I cant hold my piece any longer. Metatron, and all other fellow HEMA folks- modern sport fencing is still very much fencing. The two biggest critiques I hear are “sport fencers aren’t afraid of being hit so long as they get there first” and the pistol grip complaint- more on that in a moment. In sport fencing, we have a concept called “right of way” (in foil and Sabre) which evolves from the historical idea of having to address an incoming attack before attacking in turn in order to increase one’s chance of survival. The goal is still to do everything one can to hit without being hit. That’s called a “one light” touch. It’s what we do our very best to achieve. That way there can be no question who scored. HEMA has the same issue. Even at the very highest levels currently available, the vast majority of modern HEMA fighters will always try to attack into an attack. I see this all the time with my club- I attack fast and from distance, in a straight cut, and yet ALL of my club mates will just swing right into me, rather than address my attack first. It’s so prevalent that you will see it happening just as commonly in high level HEMA as in sport fencing. So, please stop the critiques. Point two- the pistol grip. The pistol grip was designed originally for competitive foil and epee fencers to maximize the ergonomic potential of one’s hand to increase speed and tip precision aka “point control”. And it really does. The goal of sport fencing is to both: learn to fight, but also to compete against others and that means you have to train every part of yourself to be the fastest, most precise and most athletic you can be. It typically flows much faster than it looks, meaning that it also is usually moving much faster than most historical fencers (long sword excluded) typically move. At those speeds, and having to hit with a very small part of your sword, the extra precision allowed by the pistol grip makes all the world of difference. I had me reservations with it when I first saw it, but it really is a huge help at competitive speeds. Lastly- as to your training. Listen, I’m not gonna criticize the club you went to, but they should have started you with foil. The rules and techniques of it provide a very basic info to the other two disciplines. Most successful training programs follow this method and, as a former instructor myself, students of mine who began with foil always outperformed those who did not. I was a Sabre man myself, even made alternate on the US World Team in 2003. Sabre was the perfect fit for me as it’s all about speed and aggression, but without my basis in foil, I never could have gotten where I did. Sorry to rant, but sometimes both competitive and HEMA fencers get entirely too “high horse” about their respective disciplines and I figured my perspective as having spent my whole life studying both might shed some light here.
Perhaps my experience is too limited, but I haven't heard any claims of superiority from the sport fencer side. HEMA is simply too small for most people to have even heard of it, much less criticize. On the other hand, respect to you for your skills!
As a fellow fencer (though not on your level) I agree with nearly all of this except the right of way part. Yes it exists, but it doesn't encourage you to try and strike without getting hit, it just encourages you to strike first (or in a way where you have right of way). I mean even if parry and gain the right of way as a defender your not really deflecting the attack. Your just trying to tap their blade so that you can attack back and get the right of way. After you touch their blade to yours you don't care if they hit you, you just want to hit them as quick as you can before the lockout kicks in on the scorebox. Also, the pistol grip did make my hand hurt after extended sessions. It's just really awkward feeling, even if it does make point control a LITTLE easier.
Technically, foil is not a toy, it's a training aid for a short sword, which is a real actual lightweight weapon that was designed to be portable in cities and was carried around by the nobility. In fact, the nobility was obliged to wear a weapon. That weapon was supposed to be used against a guy protected by metal plates by poking in the holes in the armor. Also, the "ignoring the threat" thing also had its purpose in the training. It was supposed to help the learner to acquire the proper technique that is useful in combat. I'm assuming that the idea was: in a real combat, the fear of being cut will naturally come back. But applying good technique will make your hits more lethal, parries more effective and that advantage is what counts in a real combat. Look at Sabre for example: just scratch the opponent's arm and the lamp goes on. Or Epee: you touch opponent's toenail and you score the point - that only counts in 19'th century duels, but has nothing to do with combat. So, in my humble opinion, modern foil is closest of all three to what you need to prepare for a real combat on small swords. Of course, except for the flicks.
When i was first learning fencing, I started with a straight grip, and it wasn't "bad" for fencing, but when i began using a pistol grip, i found my movements and thrusts to be much more fluid. At this point i still prefer the pistol group for the purpose of fencing.
Hi Metatron :) As a practicioner of both olympic and historical fencing (I am currently studying to become a Historical and Artristic Fencing Instructor at the Accademia Nazionale di Scherma), I have to say there's a point very few people grasp: They're the same discipline, but with different rulesets and weapons. Fencing, or "Scherma" is a martial art that goes beyond the weapon you're using. There are universal pinciples (speed, tempo and timing, distance, strategy and tactics) that are applied differently based on what's the game that we're playing: if the game is killing each other with a sabre, for example, of course I will have to effectively parry your blow and riposte on the neck with a proper cut; but if the game is switching on a light with the right-of-way rule, I will just touch your blade and poke you on the arm, so that the referee gives me the point even if you scored a split second before me. What doesn't change is the underlying mentality of the duellist. The right-of-way rule was born as a mean to preserve duelling gentlemen's life, to maintain a better "frase d'armi" or construction of the conclusive action in order to avoid a double hit or "colpo delle due vedove". So it's actually one of the most "historical" components of modern olympic fencing. What happened then, what created this aberration of fencing, is that the mean turned into an end, so all the technique is being thrown away in favour of this game of electrified tag. Probably to make it easier and accessible to more people. We leave theoretical discussion to enter FIE politics here, which I'm not really into. And, tecnhically, REAL swordsmanship is dead and there's nothing we can do about it. We cannot practice ACTUAL swordfighting without dying, being badly injured or ending up in jail after the first bout. So we have to make compromise: olympic fencing is a good one, because it withholds all the technical and theoretical components of real fencing, even though the outcome is a bit crappy (but I'll make an exception for Epee here, which I think is the most HEMAish because it's non-conventional, and therefore more "realistic"... Yes, I'm an epeeist 😜); HEMA is another compromise, but in my opinion in the HEMA community there is too much pedantry on the interpretation of one or another specific treatise, and not enough good use of fencing principles, so the result is a bit crappy in HEMA competitions as well... The best approach would be, in my opinion, to learn the proper mindset by attending foil (OH THE HORROR) or sabre lessons with a maestro (not instructor), and then move over to non-conventional fencing such as epee and/or longsword, sword and buckler etc. Perhaps sooner or later I'll make a proper video about this point and explain better 🙂 Peace :D P.S. Yes, when you start epee with no fencing background, it's better to use a pistol grip at first... The french one requires a bit more dexterity, so your instructor was right 😆 P.P.S. Epee also has, of course, a big aberration, which is a double point for a double hit, instead of 0 points. So if we're, say, 11-13 I will just attack over your attack and seek the double hit so that I score 15 before you. That's what makes me think that the best ruleset for historical fencing is one similar to epee, but with no points for the double.
Scoring boxes did also mean you would not need 5 ref's to watch a single match. Tournaments in the UK can struggle to get 1 ref for a match let alone 5. The thing I also find when people use french grips is that they hold it too tightly and much like a club.
Not totally dead... they do real duels in south american prisons (yeah, they fight to death). Of course, they dont use olympic stuff but home made, but the principle is the same, very long thin and flexible blades that can both cut and stab, being the stab the usual movement.
To be honest. I saw some video of HEMA tournaments and they tend to be emberrassing. I understand the mindset is "kill without dying", but I've seen too many people just running at each other, trying to move the opponent's weapon out of the way and then grappling in a very brawl-like manner. I lost all my interest in hema after seeing these competitions. I like technique, not brawling. Always wanted to try fencing but I'm too short for it. I have many years of experience in semi-contact (which is a rule system in kick boxing that is extremely similar to fencing) and I painfully learned that height is a huge advantage.
I also like swords, and I prefer the French grip, but unlike you I love fencing and the idea of an 18th or 19th century gentlemen's duel. I never really was fixated on MEDIEVAL swordsmanship. And besides, with my skill in fencing, I feel that I can use pretty much any sword with some success. Also I came to really admire Fencing for what it is, or is descended from - it has such precision and technique!
I think your argument with regards to the grip deserves much more discourse. Your argument is basically that's not a sword grip, but weapons have historically had different grips. I can see how you might say that it is more like a katar vs a sword, but you could imagine that had swords continued to develop, the grip would have evolved. I think you should talk about why a pistol grip isn't better, or when it is not appropriate rather than it's not a sword handle.
As someone who has a year of foil experience i can say that those swords aren't as wobbly as they appear the reason they appear so is because of the incredible speed and strength of the olympians that for some reason Elitists like to compare all of fencing to.
And also an optical illusion :), as the fencers are gamboling as well so their hands go up and down too. Similar like our childhood's "wobbly pencil" trick. I've had the same experience with epee. When I was given a handful of blades to choose from, my first reaction was: "wow, this is rigid" (compared to what I've expected).
Your video reminds of several things I have experienced in the past. I too learned Olympic Fencing (OF) because I was interested in swords and there was no HEMA school near by. I came away with a great respect for OF. Yes, there are things in OF that are not realistic as you mention. You have to realize that allot of these rules were created before safety gear was readily available the way it is today. But overall, it will teach you allot and develop reflexes and corrdination. I have always incorporated many things that I leared in fencning even when learning Filipino knife fighting and they have worked very well. For example, in OF I was taught to always have my weapon infront of me and to have the point at the opponent. I guess I learned that from epee and foil fencning. I also learned the effectiveness of thrust. I would spar with allot of people in knife fighting and some of them were supposed to be very advanced students. They would do weird things with the grips, blades positioned not infront of them, and even moving the blades around. I know this sounds very arrogant but I ususally ended stabbing many of them with no problems: I just treated soemwhat like a OF match. Yes, there are some goofy rules in OF but if your techniques don't work then you don't win. That makes it very utilitarian. You are correct in that there are allot of people and schools who talk a good game but fall apart on the field. They have come up with some really dumb stuff that doesn't work. I think OF has allot to offer and with some adjustment, it can lend itself to some very practical technique.
I do not know if You will see this, but just a thought: I am a national coach of Olympic Fencing with many years of experiance. From my point of view there is a high chance that your instructor was right: Womens epee it is a 50:50 decision if You should go for pistol or french grip men epee is more like 90% pistol 10% french. Men hit the blade much harder so You really need to be the type for the french grip. second: for french grip you are fencing much more out of the rythmus of your footwork (if you start late with fencing (and what I could see of your body type) it is hard to get to the point where you can outmaneuver your oponet with your superiour footwork). 3. from Your kendo & hema experiance you should be more used to "talk" with the blade then with your footwork. 4. it is strange to me that you refuse the pistol grip, the roman army was very open to modernasation and improcement
I like your videos, but this one doesn't make much sense... Olympic fencing is a SPORT. it is not meant to be a historical knight fight reenactment XD. I used to do foil fencing myself. Of course thats not realistic combat... It never was meant to be... Foil is the most technical weapon out of the three. For people who don't know: both Foil and Epee are thrust weapons only. In Epee, all targets are valid. From the foor to the helmet. In Foil, only the body and crotch (lol) are. Arms, Helmets and legs are not valid. The Epee is a very stiff triangular blade, while the foil is a small rectangular blade that is very bendy. You can actually hit your opponent in the back in foil (would technically be legal in Epee, but good luck bending that triangular blade XD). In Sabre, everything from the waist up is valid, and you can both thrust and slash. The blade is also triangular, so it's quite stiff. It is not as fat as the Epee. There are other difference in the rules as well between the three weapons but I guess that gives you guys an idea. Fencing is a beutiful sport. But don't take it as a realistic fight reenactment... it's not! Its an individual sport, much like Tennis...
I think it may have been Matt Easton that addressed this point, but it might have been Skallagrim. Don't remember which it was, but one of the gentlemen made the point that the reason so many people /want/ to see Olympic Fencing as "real sword fighting!" is because until Hema started getting mainstream (something extremely recent), fencing and Kendo were the only widely available outlets for learning how to (in theory) handle a sword. Because fencing, for a long time has been, at least on the surface, one of the only formal ways to PROPERLY learn to handle a sword, a lot of people have forced themselves into confirmation bias that "No, it's not just a sport it's real sword fighting, because that's what I came here to learn, because nowhere else taught it!"
turmat01 thank you someone who actually has experience in fencing like I. I get that people think fencing is a actual sword fight but in the end it’s just a sport and people don’t get it.
As you say Olympic fencing was never meant to be anything but a sport. By the time the Olympics came about swords were declining in military use. To be fair, early sport fencing schools were teaching fencing both as sport and for military use. Angelo's School of Arms was one if the first (if not the first) to shift toward the sport aspect, but even they also were teaching British infantry soldiers how to use their swords for realzies. They taught a method for real swordsmanship that could also be used for sport/physical fitness. Kinda like how military bootcamp is designed to condition you as a soldier, but you can also just use it as a fitness program. It became really popular as a sport and over time it shifted away from military focus and eventually dropped it entirely by the time Olympic fencing started. So it has its origins in real fencing and I personally can't fault anyone for being disappointed that it has lost that element. I would like to see a 4th category added to the Olympics that goes back to earlier fencing rules emulating a real duel. You could call that a form of HEMA, but I'd be ok if it stayed sportified and just ditched certain rules. Keep the limited target areas but do away with right of way penalize doubles so that you can't just get one point and then double out in Epee.
Raf, I agree with your point, and that's the reason I chose the saber to train olimpic fencing when I was young. At my city it was the closest thing to a real sword combat. Best wishes
As a foilist, I agree completely with your assessment of foil - it's a game, a modern sport, and it doesn't really represent historical sword fighting at all. I prefer the sport aspect of fencing, its athleticism. You're a typical HEMA fanatic - you want to feel you're playing with a real sword. But modern fencing isn't about the weapon - matches are won and lost entirely on footwork, distance and timing. The weapon is incidental.
Both certainly have their benefits. I took Olympic fencing in college and was even top of my class. Like you, I absolutely hate the pistol grip, it's trash but I do understand why they insist. It's all about wrist alignment, with a French grip, your wrist is at an angle which slightly limits your tip control. The pistol grip allows for a downward parry without having to twist your wrist completely over to catch the low thrust.
I have not fenced or done hema. But i have done boxing since i was 15 and i used to think like you when it comes to terms with mma. I wanted to do mma for a long time but only had boxing available and i thought that it would be a disadvantage to spend all those years only working my hands. Only now i realize how much i learned in boxing and that it was not any harder to unlearn bad habits than to learn new ones, which is also a reason you can see like kickboxers going into the ufc faster than a guy starting with mma from scratch. I strongly believe it can be the same case with hema and fencing and if you wanna do hema but only have fencing available do the fencing. You definitely will learn hema easier with a background in fencing.
As someone who did Fencing for around a year of fencing with mostly foils but sometimes sabres I loved the Pistol grip. It felt right in the hand and the movements in fencing felt natural. It's a grip that was made for fencing. Fencing is a sport not combat and as a sport it's great but there are elements of it that can work in a martial context. The footwork you get from fencing is second to none and to this day even after years of not really practicing it I can easily close or widen my distance against an aggressor easily and if I'm carrying a knife I know I'm able to get close to anyone who wants to do me harm. While I ended up giving my foil, with the great pistol grip, away I like any Puerto Rican own a Machete, I still like to practice the sabre forms with it and fool around a bit. But yeah Olympic Fencing, specially with foils is mostly a points game. My teacher who trained the Olympic team use to say that back in his day people really hit each other hard so that the Judge could know who hit first but this days with electronic sensors mostly replacing Judges it became all about speed. I understand as someone who was more interested in Historical 14th Century Swordplay to not be a fan of modern Fencing equipment but there's a reason for it to be that way. A Pistol grip for example is great to protect your wrist and have the right form all the time while using a Foil. But with sabre for example you use a more classical sabre handle with hand cover so that is more similar to how a sabre was used in combat. With Swords it's pretty much anything you want to do, it's full body so there's more movement options. That being said it's your equipment so a trainer forcing you to go to a Pistol Grip is definetely not good. A good teacher simply let's the student grab a couple of equipments and see which one calls to you so to speak. For foil fencing for me the pistol grip called me and I bought my own online at a bargain, you had to see the reaction in my dorm when a long ass box came for me lol.
I just started HEMA, specifically German Longsword, and I find that my 3 year prior Kendo experience is helping me greatly, the primary thing I need to learn at the moment is stepping out of line and defending myself while making my attacks but there is a decent amount of carry over and I feel like it's helped me progress much quicker than I would have with no prior martial art experience.
the foil was invented to prepare for the duel. parry and attack is the most basic thing to survive. attacking the dead zones, the torso in particular, is much more effective than piercing a foot or an arm, and being killed by an instinctive riposte ... I suppose that the chevalier de Saint George, great French foilist of the eighteenth century and the most formidable duellist of his time would not say the opposite ... I like Metatron's analysis, even those little inaccuracies that allow us to intervene at the right moment.
Spot on. People who don't know fencing and don't know foil discount it without really understanding the background and history. And have never gone up against a good foilist...
Since I just started going back to classes for competition fencing, I feel this needs to be shared. The instructor commented on how we no longer think of them as swords, so we will do things you'd never do with a live blade. His suggestion? Hook the swords up to car batteries. "If you knew every time that hit you, you'd feel that zap, you'd focus a lot more on not getting hit."
Not fearing for your life while fencing or practicing any kind of swordplay will kind of ruin the reality of it, but where would we end up if people would be killed in olympic fencing? Same can be said with any risk/reward activity. Take poker for instance. If you remove risk of losing money then the game becomes shallow empty shell of what it supposed to be. I think same can be said about sword fighting aswell. If you know your opponent could kill you then you would be very careful of what you are doing. I personally think they could implement many rules in olympic fencing to make it more realistic, but i cant say for sure what other impact it would put on the sport. One rule that comes into mind is penalizing for reckless moves, but how would you judge it is another matter entirelly.
What is the one hobby or art that you have actually stuck with? I ask because it seems that you practice many things relatively briefly and then quit them after finding "issues" with them.
Yildirim Indeed, this does seem to be the case. I suppose finding something you really, truly enjoy is sometimes difficult and may involve trying several options, but Metatron has 'issues' with so many things. Not only that, he feels the need to tell the whole world about it. Just try things and move on if necessary.
It’s a good question. Trying and not having things work out is important, though. We want to get the very best use of our time, not just something that is ok.
A few points as both a competitive fencer and a coach: Firstly it sounds like you had a REALLY old fashioned coach. I know that on the continent there is a long period of S&C, footwork etc. before you are allowed to fence, but here in the UK we get people fencing within their first hour! Secondly, I agree that epee is the best, however it doesn't sound like your coach explained the grips properly. The French grip and the Italian grip both give you less strength than the pistol or Belgian. The French grip is just straight and an Italian grip is straight with rings attached to the guard. As the pistol grip gives more strength, the Italian grip fell out of use (I think I've only seen one ever, and that was just an old one a club had for novelty value) but the French remained because of pommeling - holding the grip at the end (the pommel) to give extra reach to offset the disadvantage of reduced strength. You might have had more luck with a Russian grip (sort of a halfway between the two, like a French grip with stubs protruding to add control like a Visconti pistol) or a Belgian. Thirdly you can cut with a sabre, but like foil it has poxy priority rules. This basically means that if I attack you, you parry me and repost, we both hit at the same time then only you get the point. If we both attack at the same time no-one gets a point. You also can't hit the legs. Supposedly the sabre evolved from the cavalry weapon, which is why below the belt attacks are not valid, as it was bad form to hit your opponents horse. The epee evolved from the duelling weapon, and was to first blood, which is why attacks anywhere are valid. The cutting edge was taken off and the V shape added to create a lighter and therefore faster thrusting weapon. Foil was originally a training weapon to teach blade-work and is just silly. Lastly and good coach will teach you to not stop when you get the hit, but to carry on until you are told to stop or retreat in a way that protects you, as too often a fencer thinks they have gotten a hit, stopped and been hit themselves. I've seen it happen too often and is something you should have drilled out of you. Maybe fencers with a problem with this should try HEMA cross-training to wallop it out of them.
Two changes would fix sport fencing. First is that the time between your hit and theirs needs to be greatly extended to at least a full second. Second is that double hits need to be punished so that sport fencers have to defend themselves rather than just worry about who touches the other one first.
In Epee yes. That's not really how sport fencing works outside of Epee though. Foil and Sabre have priority systems where the person who first initiates an attack or who last makes a successful parry/riposte is awarded the point. It's a massively oversimplified way to determine the winner of the fight, but it is rooted in historical systems; you'll get the same thing if you try to do Broadsword, military sabre, dussack, or even longsword in a modified capacity (see Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, or Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter). I also like Matt Easton's videos ;)
No, there's no need to "fix" anything in fencing. In fact every time they try to do that it only causes more problems. The last time they messed with the foil timings it caused people to start using weird techniques to avoid hits... all because they wanted to "fix" it and get rid of flicking. The thing is, fencing is a sport and it's not a simulation of sword fighting. If that's what you think sport fencing is or what you want it to be, then you're thinking about it wrong.
squiddypiddy even though it's based off the rapier, it's still very different from one. All of the weapons have some change from their original weapon (foil and small sword, saber and saber, epee and rapier). Saber is probably closest to it's weapon but real sabers also have probably the most variation of the three based weapons. Epee is the closest to the original dueling rules of first blood. However there's a reason the other two weapons didn't follow this in the first place.
I have more than a decade in each of fencing, kendo and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (Filipino martial arts). The first two are clearly sports and the last a study of efficient ways to meet out death. Kali is a blade art, with the training principles equally applicable to sword, knife, stick and empty hands. It's goal is to dispatch the enemy quickly and to return you home safely. While there is less than lethal sparring the mindset is contra sport. My interest in kendo and fencing faded as I aged and my athleticism waned. My mind was still very sharp and my sport lethality was there, but the joint strain and lack of applicability of skills toward self defense dulled my zeal. The lethality of kali is more aging friendly and the use of an edged weapons lessons the need for maximum power and instead focuses on speed and accuracy. Nevertheless; all combat requires a sense of distance and timing and thus the years I spent in kendo and fencing have given me a combat sense way beyond my years of study. My body has aged considerably but my brain remains sharp and my ability to read an opponents intention is still strong. I consider myself, at best, a lower midlevel kali practitioner, but the blade skills I have learned give me substantial confidence that my array of perfectly legal pocket accessories are likely to keep me safe where ever I go. Takeaway - time spent learning any weapon art is not wasted. If you want to learn practical self defense applications, sport arts need to be set aside for those systems designed for real combat.
I am doing fencing for 8 years now. I think fencing is more for people who like 17th and 18th century swordfighting. I like both medieval as well as 17th and 18th century swordfighting. But i prefer want fencing. Oh. And a fun fact. On my club you can also learn on how to fight with bayonets on rifles.
Contentious statement: Foil is a good basis for learning longsword. The stances are so different that your foil habits will hardly interfere with longsword at all. (they will interfere with rapier a bit more). Distance and timing carry over more or less seamlessly. The right of way system is quite similar to Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, and to Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter concepts. Foil will make your point control good enough to actually hit with your thrusts.
It certainly wouldn't hurt. I'd argue that doing foil for two years then doing longsword for two years won't make you as good as simply doing longsword for four years would, but if you can do both at the same time then yeah it's probably beneficial.
It's very simple. If thrusting is the main purpose, the French grip makes little sense, regardless of what you may feel is historically a sword and what isn't. No matter how you swing it (no pardon for that pun), If you hold a sword raised higher up, like a knight type sword and you cut more than you thrust, then French grip makes sense. You can see that with sabre fencing, no pistol grips there, since you mainly cut/hit and don't stab with the sabre (even-though it's allowed). With both epee and foil, the only way to accurately score a point is if you thrust. It's very difficult to reliably score (=actuating that spring in the tip) by way of a swinging motion. You'd have to hit with the tip, and you'd have to make sure the blade is bent so that the angle of incidence of the tip is enough to actuate that spring. It took me a lot of practice to semi reliably be able to do that. So yeah, regardless of what you personally may feel is and isn't a sword, pistol grip makes perfect sense for epee and foil, in fact I don't see much advantages to using French grip for those weapons. In most cases, it may even be harmful for your wrists. You don't see many epee and foil fencers use french grip and you don't see many many martial artists thrusting their opponents with their wrists bent down like the French grip. People punch each-other with a fist, sort of in pistol grip. Guns are usually with pistol grip too, not French grip. Of course you can use a knife or a blade in a stabbing motion with your wrist bent like that, but if you pretty much only stab and only use sideway motions to deflect, the pistol grip has a lot of advantages. It is not an insult to the sword. At least, I don't think so. I don't find any disadvantage to fencing epee with pistol grip, I do with French.
I believe the historical point has more to do with the difference between modern fencing gear and things like smallsword and rapier. If you pick up nearly any historical sword, you are basically holding it by the blade tang because that was how the things had to be constructed to be strong functional weapons. The hilt components slide onto the tang and then are held in place by the pommel which is either screwed or peened in place. The Rapier had fancier hilt components but was still constructed in basically the same manner as a medieval sword. They did have finger rings and such to allow a more angled grip, but the handle itself is typically straight with maybe some palm swell to fit in the hand better. You cannot simply put a modern pistol grip on the end of a rapier blade, the things can be 40+ inches long and weigh as much as a longsword, you need substantial counterbalance from a pommel.
Oh those are all perfectly valid valid points by the look of it. I'm just saying that in the case of fencing, pistol grips make perfect sense (and indeed, you can see that small evolutionary steps were taken towards the pistol grip in some historical swords, like the finger rings you speak of). Regardless of what is and isn't possible to build is a sturdy fashion, the idea to hold a thrust oriented weapon with a pistol grip, is perfectly valid and not silly, otherwise no epee fencer would use them and I frankly don't remember seeing any adult epee fencers at my club who didn't use a pistol grip, even though we were all taught on French grip, and new students remain to be taught on French grip and not on pistol grip. Pretty much EVERYONE transitions to some sort of pistol grip at some point because it just makes more sense when it comes to holding, handling and fighting with the epee and foil. And while I understand that fencing is very removed from battlefield sword fighting, (ironically, most traditional martial arts are), pretending like the pistol grip is some sort of ridiculous modern abomination is just, well, plain wrong. I can understand that one may find it weird and non-historical, but it does indeed make perfect sense. Which is why pretty much everyone who sticks with fencing more than a few months, eventually and NATURALLY progresses to a pistol grip. It works for fencing and it works for the types of epee and foil used in fencing. Had it been physically possible to use something closer to the pistol grip in historical swords, then I'm sure we would've seen them in history. Here's an interesting little video I found on the subject. ruclips.net/video/HHmrQNu_wbQ/видео.html
Epee fencing is actually the least like actual dueling. I'll leave saber out of this because I've only fenced epee and foil, but foil is based off of dueling and closer to it than epee by far. Dueling is referring to a duel for honor instead of a sword fight between soldiers on a battlefield. The basic principle foil is built upon is to avoid doing anything that would be considered suicidal in a real duel. The right-of-way was established to model that. If you attack without the right of way, your action would likely end in your death if the weapon were real. Foil target area is the torso because a wound in that area would penetrate a vital organ, and it's important to make sure the first hit is the last. When an opponent gets a simple wound, they go into flight or fight, so in a duel, you had to hit the torso to ensure your own safety. I'll agree with you on the pistol grips because that addition was for the purpose of bettering the sport rather than attributing to historical accuracy.
Mr Metatron. One thing i would like to mention mention is that Italy is one of the nations with the best fencers in the world, so perhaps your teacher is one of those who simply wanted to give her club medals and wins. Because my fencing-trainer is very passionate about the art of the sport, yet I have seen many trainers who can't seem to think about anything else than results. That will always make the experience of training fencing feel miserable.
Despite your best efforts, I was offended by your apparent disgust at foil. I don't do it for sword fighting. I'm not an idiot. I enjoy it as a sport, similar to one who enjoys football or tennis or soccer or whatever.
I think that you should be cautious of critiicising masters or teachers without fully understanding their methodology. Frankly if a person with limited martial arts experience started criticising me or the the tools of my trade, I'd get pretty uncooperative too.
foil is foundation for good epee because epee on its own you can be good but to excel you need to have a foundation in foil typically for fencers because in foil you learn how to parry repost, timing footwork beat attacks, etc all of which are important technical skills needed to defeat your opponent I think
Lol epee is legit so boring compared to foil. Before the non-combatant rule, they legit would sometimes just stand there. Personally, I would say foil has the potential to be the most fun because you can do a lot of crazy counterattacks. French grips are legit the bane of my existence. How do you even control your point? Pistol grips are just way more comfortable (for the majority of people).
Hello Metatron! How would I go about contacting you personally? I don't mean via telephone or anything necessarily. It's about an Italian class project in University that requires an actual Italian citizen. And other then the people of the local Massolin di Fiori society (which haven't been answering my phone calls sadly), you're the only other Italian that I know, could you help me out? According to my teacher it should be really as simple as a single message. I would like to explain it a bit more in detail in private, but I don't know if RUclips has a PM system. Thank you in advance.
I've sent you a friend request on Facebook since Facebook's message system is kind of complicated, since when you send to non-friends they end up on the "other" message box, and sometimes they don't show up at all.
I fenced for 2 years in college and attending a few tournaments and I would say first an foremost to anyone thinking about trying it out is that you need to understand fencing is a sport, not a martial art. Metatron described foil fencing as a game, and that is exactly right. All of it is just a game, a fun game (in my opinion), but still just a game. No one in actual duel or battle or any combat situation would actual fight they way fencers do unless they were trying to commit suicide. So if you want to learn a martial art or self defense look elsewhere. If you want an alternative to basketball or soccer, give fencing a try.
I really like your videos Metatron, but seriously this one is stupid because of what you said about foil fencing. I practiced foil fencing during three years with my father (who practiced almost since thirty year and did national competions here in France) and it seems you completely missed the point of foil fencing. The priority system of foil fencing is in fact a way to simulate the risk of being killed during the fight. Basically if you hit your opponent when he has the priority you don't have the point, because to obtain the priority he succesfully put himself in a dominant situation. At this point trying to hit him is useless because you are already exposed, at best your going to wound him before being killed and you should try to put yourself in a situation where attacking isn't a 50/50 percent chance to get killed ; so get back the priority. When your doing sport you don't think about all that because your life isn't at risk so the priority system is a way to avoid what happen in sword fencing ; trying to hit your opponent at all cost, because it's not a problem if he hit you as long as you hit him first.
Exactly. None of these HEMA guys know that. With all the equipment, nobody has any reason to avoid attacks or parry. With right of way, people have a reason to defend themselves and then attack. HEMA users have all of that protective equipment and no compelling reason to defend from double hits like in epee.
Leandro Gabriel Watch out for misquoting people. You can't use quotes like that unless I said exactly that. And yes, they don't. With a double hit, what happens? Both get a point? You have less reason to avoid or block an attack if you can just score a second hit after they hit you.
Bryan Wheelock you never want to take any hits, armor or not, the armor is never an excuse for lack of guard but a safeguard against holes in your defense, and even then it's never encouraged to allow an enemy to get past your defense, clearly you've never experienced hema before, but regardless I hate most of these anyways as I prefer full contact, simulate real battles and the life or death mindset you get from them, the community. I'm uses authentic armor and proper weapons recreated in a heavy dense foam, while having no cutting potential they have all the weight and impact of a real weapon, if you're not in armor, you'll bruise hard.
Solignox , His commentary on foil fencing was born purely from ignorance and likely an uninformed bias. Foil fencing is the closest thing to actual deadly weapons combat that exists, unlike the "cutting sword" sports.
Hi the Metatron. First I'd like to say i really enjoy your videos, they are fascinating! About the pistol hilt, I didn't really understand why you hate them so much and prefer the french one... I have some experience in fencing (mainly in saber but also a little bit in foils) and i have found the pistol hilt much better in terms of maneuver and control of the blade. This grip is meant to be used in an Olympic fencing duels which are different than hema duel, and therefore require other things from the weapon.
For me, it depends on how much experience they've had in either. Someone with a few months of Kendo is much easier to train than someone with a few months of foil, but also someone with YEARS of Kendo will be harder to train than someone with years of foil. In the end though the difference is small. My favorite thing about taking on either group is watching their faces when I tell them they will never have to do that stupid duck walk ever again. I mean I guess we're screwed if Santa's elves attack, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. (Yes I know it builds leg strength, but there are so many other ways of doing that.)
If you think footwork is dumb and historically inaccurate, you probably are a weeb, or just a shitty longsword fencer who forgets other weapons existed.
As a disabled fencer (played in both in able bodied standing fencing and more recently Wheelchair category B), who started on foil, pistol/orthopaedic grips have a place for us. Moved onto Sabre pretty quickly though.
Metatron does not seem to understand the advantages of learning fencing with a pistol grip as a beginner. Had he been just a little bit wiser he would have listened to his instructor and after a while would would have been able to make a more informed decision rather than pretend he knew what was better for him from the outset. When he knew a bit more about fencing *then* he might have decided to use a french grip (there are a number of valid reasons why its just detrimental for a beginner to start with one). Just because something is historical, it does not make for the best initial learning method.
The existence of the pistol grip shows the priority of fencing, sport. it is likely that he realized that it may be so sport oriented that it didn't provide the insight into swordplay he wanted and that his time was better spent elsewhere. In HEMA we talk all the time about what artifacts in the practice come about as a result of rules, equipment, and sparring partners. This practice helps us find ways to minimize these factors and get as close to the roots of the culture as possible. Metatron has no interest in fencing because he has little interest in sport as far as i can tell.
For me, the thing that killed my enthusiasm more than anything else was the over-engineered point-scoring mechanism (all the beginners had to start with foil). I could have gotten over only counting torso hits, but having a mechanism that constantly stopped the bout with any mishit and that could easily get knocked out of alignment by mishits meant the entire sport had essentially been changed to fit this annoying little buzzer, when it was only supposed to be a tool to make refereeing easier. Also I was confused by the pistol grip at first, then I took a HEMA class in Spanish rapier and it started to make sense, because the grip we were taught (index on ricasso, middle-finger through loop, fourth and little fingers on handle) puts the hand in a very similar position to a pistol grip.
Ho fatto 3 anni e mezzo di scherma e devo dire che mi è stata utilissima per imparare la posizione dei piedi per dare meno bersagli all'avversario cosa che sto utilizzando moltissimo nell'aikido e che mi sta permettendo di imparare sin da subito le tecniche senza dover usare molto tempo sui Hanmi, Kamae (soprattutto nell'utilizzo del bokken e del jo) e negli ashi-sabaki, credo che anche nella Hema possa essere utile il "footwork" (che bello quando conosci i concetti nell'inglese e li dimentichi in italiano). Per quanto riguarda invece il discorso del tempo rallentato nell'eseguire le tecniche nella Hema credo dipenda che all'inzio debba imparare ogni movimento correttamente e poi puoi svolgere le stesse tecniche alla massima velocità, come mi viene in quando praticavo scherma e le cavazioni le ho imparate al rallentatore, dopo un paio di mesi le facevo velocissimo, o come adesso nell'aikido che facevo l'Ikkyo molto lentamente ed ora inizio a farlo in maniera pulita e rapida, credo sia solo una questione di imparare bene all'inzio in modo corretto e poi di diventano automatismi, inoltre considerando che nella Hema (giustamente) non ci si uccide vicendevolmente, soprattutto agli inizi, per evitare impicci si procede più lentamente.
Seriously? There isn't a club by you? I mean I live in the middle of nowhere and I found a club I can get to often enough. Granted it's a 2 and a half hour drive but it's worth it.
There's a lot of boat traffic from sicily to the southern part of Calabria and so the rest of italy, but yes, not that comfortable thing to do many times a week. Also, not every one has the time to drive many times a week for several hours.
I see a lot of people in the comments here defending fencing by saying that it is a sport and not meant to simulate real swordfights. The issue with that line of thought is that it did descend from real sword fights and is the activity that most people thinking of when they think sword fighting. Every little boy who has picked up a stick and pretended that it is a sword gets told to do fencing, only so be disappointed. It is an overall disservice to sword wielding martial arts around the world, which would be much more popular if fencing isn't what it is today. I know descendents can't always be the same as their ancestors, but this is just a case of a chicken descending from the dinosaurs
Right but olympic archery descended from using a bow as a weapon. Velodrome descended from using bicycles for transport. Same for dressage and skiing. Your argument that sports had origin X and so shouldn't merge into Y is a little nonsensical - in the nicest possible way, why should fencers care about what little boys think? Fencing is a professional sport and if the layman doesn't understand how it works, that isn't an argument to suggest it *should be* what the layman imagines it to be.
@@alextowers3564 You are mischaracterizing what I was saying here. I am not saying that that fencing can't exist as a descendent of dueling. I am making a specific, narrow argument that the current position that Olympic styles hold as "THE sword fighting sports" does a disservice towards the popularity of all sword-based activities due to people feeling like they have been lied to. It is fine if you don't care about the popularity of what you do, but most people do. We can disagree on whether popularity should be a goal, but you can't deny the impact. I have met so many people who said "I tried some Olympic fencing but it just isn't what I thought it would be" and I am certain that anyone in HEMA, Olympic fencing, or Kendo has met many such people.
@tiexiaowang7939 But the Olympics doesn't call it "The swordfighting sport". Olympic fencers don't call it swordfighting or call foils/sabres/èpèes "swords". They'll be the first to tell you it isn't swordfighting, it's a sport that evolved from swordfighting in the same way that dressage evolved from horse riding to get from A to B. This is a misconception that comes from *outside* the sport. If HEMA enthusiasts, laymen or little boys expect fencing to be swordfighting due to a lack of understanding what it really is, it isn't the olympic fencers' problem when they're disappointed. It's not like they ever claimed it was. How can people feel lied to if that lie was actually just misconceptions due to their own ignorance?
I did some fencing and found it so funny when friends would want to spar. One, in particular, would swing so wide and it was just so easy to dart in on a thrust and dart back and just keep hitting him and not ever being anywhere to get struck. This guy thought he knew sword fighting but he was all talk and it was fun to know a little and just put him in his place.
I've got a good HEMA teacher, he has a pretty good sense of humor. It's serious when it needs to be serious, lighthearted when it needs to be lighthearted.
theres a really good one done by funker tactical, search funker tactical kali then search funker tactical escrima the first one is why filipino martial arts trainin is unrealistic and the second is must watch double stick beastmode and the truth about defanging the snake. id link them but youtube is a bitch about links in comments.
not racist actually, what im saying is watch his video because youll see what good kali looks like versus bad kali, the stuff is great but a lot of places dont teach it properly.
I am a huge foil fan. it is the essential skill. control, timing, temp, speed, and etiquette of the blade. but, true not combat. but if you know how to control distance with a foil, you find other arts easier and have more fun with it. it sound like you went to a great school, but they didn't know how to let their students have a wee bit of fun. our clubs were never competition focused, we knew none of us were going to the Olympics. we just loved fencing and beers after.
Wait a sec, you're Sicilian? Please make a video about it! The impression foreigners have of Sicilians is almost fantastical. Stuff like honor culture, hotheadedness, mafia-stuff.
Saber was my favorite but I always found Olympic fencing limiting. After classes we would screw around, sometimes doing fencing in the round, sometimes mixing weapons or being silly like using two weapons. I liked saber because it seemed more natural for me. People stopped challenging me though because I would stab with the saber. Totally legitimate move, just hurts a lot and the other saber fencers would get frustrated because I wasn't making cuts like they expected someone with a saber to do. Funny thing is put a foil or an epee in my hand and I was terrible. Basically, Olympic fencing has too many rules, saber was the most flexible and allowed me to make the most of the weapon within the ridiculous confines of those rules.
Epee's rules are literally anything but the floor or wall counts. Do agree that using the tip of the sabre is a nice way to score a touch. Especially if used from a lunge into a remise.
@@christianalbertjahns2577 Why wouldn't you? If your opponent is good at avoiding your cut maybe an attack with the point can score you a touch? Also using it as a remise after an initial attack has failed might also score you another touch? I get in Sabre it is used rarely but is not something that should be avoided (imho).
@@christianalbertjahns2577 You never had it were an opponent has avoided your attack because you used the edge to land the hit? I get using the point is not generally needed but surely you don't ignore the use of the point entirely when attacking?
You can't compare Fencing/Kendo/Medieval with a real life situation and say that Medieval has advantage over the others. Cos you don't get out in the streets and stab people. You might only do that in video games.
Thats as false as saying that an MMA fighter does not know how to fight because he only does it in the ring....come on man, the diference betwen fencing/kendo and HEMA is that fencing and kendo are sports, they have a set of rules that both restrict you and give you a core mindset and approach to the encounter. HEMA( historical European martial arts) is a martial art, a fighting sistem, its designed to provide options for any possibility you might encounter, be it cutting, thrusting, grappling, ground fighting, etc. Not only that but HEMA competitions try to be as less restrictive as safely possible, while at the same time trying to uphold the value of self preservation first and foremost when you fight. To put it simply, fencing and kendo both strive to be a sport, entertaining, challenging, and fast paced. HEMA on the other had strives to be a martial art, an effective simulation on how to use a real sword in a real life or death situation and survive.....of course it has to make compromises, nobody is saying it perfectly represents every aspect of a real duel to the death, but it is the current closest representation, and it's in a constant effort to make itself closer and closer to reality.
Im sure the fencing instructor was happy having an ''expert'' like you in the course telling him whats proper fencing. And refusing to fence with a pistol crip? If you want play with swords thats fine but you should have a bit more respect to your teacher in the course. Sicilians took home three olympic medals in the RIO olympic games, so I think they know what they are doing down there.
The people who care are those that enjoy it, and the nations that have won medals because of it. You call it a silly game which is your opinion. Still if a silly game gets people active with both their body and mind, then that is a good thing no? The great thing with fencing is that there is a lot an amateur or late comer to the sport can do.
Any olimpic fencer can easily defeat this moron in any sword game he thinks he knows. I did hema and historical fencing for years and recently went to foil, I can tell it is much more practical than any other type of fencing and the level of olimpic champ is unreachable unless you start from very childhood.
@The Only True Witch-King Lmao what kind of neckbeard fantasy shit is this? Like you've ever even seen a blade bigger than a kitchen knife, don't act like you're a badass because you watched some HEMA RUclips videos.
100% agree, I went to a fencing club for a couple of years, I found foil so restrictive, like why am I only allowed to poke them? I really didn't enjoy it and the thing I did to take advantage of the "only the point counts" rule only got me shouted at. I remember enjoying the few times I was allowed to do sabre, found it so liberating and found myself learning more as their was a higher chance of hitting someone by using different ways of moving the blade. I was crap and stopped eventually, as I really didn't enjoy it and found it stressful to only do the moves which grade 1's were taught (I only ever got to a grade 2 XD).
Foil fencing is actually the preeminent sword dueling style. Thinking foil fighting is a joke or just sport exposes ignorance and intellectual laziness. This is not typical for you, so I'm compelled to conclude it's due to irrational bias.
i think that the critique of realism in fencing is dumb because encounters where, 1. you have a sword 2. your opponent has a sword 3. neither of you is caught off-guard 4. both if you are willing to kill 5. there is no-one to stop you and you are in an open space where you can circle around each other 6. your opponent doesn't just whip out a gun and shoot you never happen. There is nowadays no need to learn swordfighting to kill. The whole argument is just corny
Epee is combat and makes me feel like a thug... Sabre is perfect for theatrical fighting and makes me feel like a magnificient bastard. Foil is art for the sake of art and makes me feel like the fearie king, embodiment of grace and precision. My focus obviously lies on a different aspect of fencing than yours and I much, much preferred the latter two to just going in and starting to stab, trying to make my light light up first... epee is just kind of brutal, like a Wanderlei Silva led MMA training facility...
Hi. I enjoy your videos very much and I must say I agree with you on this topic, as, in fact, in most others. I started learning how to fight and sword fight with my father when I was 3. I am now 38 and I never stopped. My father's focus was stage fencing but, as a martial artist and a stage director that staged fights, he always looked for ways to study the techniques that would have been used in ancient times. At the time you didn't have HEMA you had modern fencing, ancient manuals (if you could get a copy of them) and your wits. He went on to become a modern fencing instructor and we where both among the first people practicing HEMA in an organized fashion in Portugal, when the opportunity for that came alone in about 2008. All the while I worked with him and from 2004 with Master Eugénio Roque (you can google him). Still our focus was and still is stage fighting; we practiced both modern fencing and HEMA in order to best be able to choreograph (or so we tell ourselves, truth be told we were inspired by the same kind of lore that inspired so many others). Because I spent all those years practicing fencing and several oriental martial arts, when I finished my bachelor's degree in acting I specialized in stage fight. The last few years I worked hard with the Portuguese Fencing Federation and became a fencing instructor and a maître d'arms for the Academie d'Arms Internationale. All the while keeping in contact with the guys that direct HEMA in my country and attending to some practice sessions (I can't be everywhere at once). All this to say: Yes, modern fencing is a sport. There are lots of details in the rules (not just the equipment used) that make it different from HEMA. It is great, as you said, in preparing you to fight in HEMA. The mind set is different because in sabre and foil there is the priority rule - not so in epée, though. It personally bums me that épée (wich is the sword) can't score by cutting but... that is just the game. Even HEMA, where you practice the real techniques as a martial art, has rules that make the fights different from what they would be like when it come to combat, because... well, in the old days they got maimed and/or died in combat a lot. :p So, fencing is a combat sport, and HEMA is martial arts (arts not art because there are so many styles and weapons, like you said), but in reality, even though HEMA might be closer to a real combat, both types of fighting are game. It only depends on what kind of game you prefer. The closest thing to real fight is Battle of Nations... but the injury rates are about 20% and sometimes people die. Even in HEMA long term exposure to hard impacts, despite the protections, can be harmful for one's health. The way I see it fencing evolved from a way to kill people into a sport and the into art (with artistic fencing/stage fight). Sure this is not absolutely linear, there were always different tips of stage fights and sort of sporting events with swords and stuff, but it is the way I structure it in terms of evolution - from something that kill to something that elevates the living. Of course artistic fencing (the sword fighting part of stage fighting) is completely different. But I believe that in order to make it more believable you have to master all you can manage to master in fencing so you can later deconstruct it and use it for the narrative you build when choreographing. Its fake on purpose because the purpose is different. But it shouldn't look fake (unless that is required by the director). But that is an all new video... Still, many look for the real thing inspired by stuff they have seen on stage or scree so... hurray for stage fighting and great story telling (even if the fake fighting is not that good). :) Personally if I feel like fighting (with weapons - unarmed is different, I am also graduated in different eastern martial arts) I go for modern fencing épée, its safer than HEMA (and as an actor and fight choreographer it can be bad to become injured so I don't risk it as mush as when I was younger). For learning real martial techniques and the real feeling of the fight, HEMA (but I practice only for research - and I love it). For fun, work and money artistic fencing and stage fighting (actually may main focus although I spend many hour on the others as preparation for this) . But thi is just me. :) Cheers, Tiago da Cruz ----(----------------
+Metatron I'm going to do a response to this video in my channel. I understand that you speak spanish as well then i'm going to do it in that language because I could explain better my experience. If you think you could not understand me (and if you see this comment) please tell me as soon as you can to do my video in english.
You know I'm uploading the video right now but I'm feeling afraid of people start saying bad things about me or something and make me look like and idiot for my english or something I said. It's that normal? XD
I imagine an Olympic fencing club where the students all showed up one day, looked at each other, and said, "Were you hoping to learn HEMA, too?" And then the instructor has to change the lessons. :)
So foil is "Playing with toys"? What do you call larping around with medieval weapons? No matter what sport you play with a sword today there won't be any blood or gore, I'm not going to insult your intelligence as you clearly are a very knowledgeable man when it comes to history, something I admire about you. You can either larp and fake fight or play an Olympic sport. Up to you.
It just sounds like you had some misconceptions about fencing. You went to your gym not to learn fencing but to make yourself feel like a medieval Knight. This idea itself makes me cringe. And do you really think people fence to "prepare" for HEMA?
The problem here is that fencing blades aren't thought of as swords within the sport. Call a foil or epee a sword and you'll be chewed out by instructors in a heartbeat. Also, the pistol grip is favored a little more by fencers in general because it gives them a lot more control without a grip that looks like it's made for two hands. Sure, with a French grip you can pommel to get more range from your blade, but I know that I always feels really wonky because there's so much more of a handle to work with when you've only got one hand on the thing. As far as the point about cutting in fencing, you can't really practice draw cuts or cuts that would have much depth to them. If you think of the forward flick cut that appears in Kendo, saber acts similarly, but with one hand. It's all really restrictive, which means you can't *really* cut, even if you get the motion down.
As an olympic (épée) and HEMA fencer I have to agree with you: 1. Yes, Foil is somehow lacking (that is why most new fancers gravitate to sword and saber) 2. I completly agree on the pistol grip, they are atrocious. I also prefer the french grip. 3. Truth be told: There is actually very few difference between épée an rapier. You do not even have to "unlearn" much, the stances and attack patterns are almost identical and the agressivness necessary for épée is quite helpfull. The other weaons in HEMA gain from the additional knowledge abour distance, tempo and speed. If you think about stating to fence (olympic or HEMA) I recommend épée as a stating point.
A traditional rapier has just a symmetrical pistol grip. As for foil lacking, it has not much to do with Hema, it's just what sword/sabre people are bound to say. If you're slow and not that clever, go for sword. Go for sword, that's also what they said to me.
It'd be interesting to see the introduction of the pistol grip into a HEMA-like environment to see how it fairs against more traditional methods. As some form of retro science fiction or something.
I like your videos... But it is clear here you do not understand Olympic fencing or its roots. Foil is a killing weapon, originally, designed specifically to be as easy as possible to pierce skin and organs in a duel with specific rules. Epee was born later of a time when death duelling was seen as barbaric, and ot became about first blood. Sabre is a recreation of horse back duelling. Those reason are why you have specific target areas and the "aristocratic" nature of the duel is why there were so many rules. Rapier fencing is a completely different animal, as is medieval sword fencing (like the arming sword). Giving up on it because you were dissapointed that you didn't get an arming sword? You should have known that going in. I do hate pistol grips, though.
Saber is actually based on foot duels, not horseback. Even though the target area makes sense for a cavalryman, the lack of well, horses, makes it foot based.
Usually I can go along with what he says and see the value of what he says but on the subject of fencing it seems like he had a fantasy in his head and when the sport was not as he expected it embittered him towards it all in general honestly it should be like everything and if it interests you give it a try dont take what he's saying off of his experience and apply it to you
I'm sick of nerds and idiots expecting fencing to match their wet dreams of castles and knights on horseback. This is the 21st century, not 1350. Almost nobody fences seriously because they like combat or are interested in sword fighting, it's a fucking sport. If you want to go act like knights then dress up in costumes but don't whine because fencing is a sport and doesn't match actual sword fights.
Gotta correct a hasty mistake there, the hitzones for sabre are only arms, torso and head, not the entire body as legs are out - that would be epee. Foil = Only poking, only torso. Epee = Only poking, entire body Sabre = poking and cutting, every zone, except legs. I see it a bit more ambivalent. I completely understand your reasoning and I agree to an extend, but I think the core thing about fencing in terms of techniques is the speed, I've seen skilled fencers in my life and that one guy was really faster than the eye could see. It's one thing if someone is just fast, it's another if you basically see your sabre "phasing" through the opponents. As for the rules...yeah... it's a game, doesn't have much to do with fighting.
Not entirely sure why you expected to be using medieval arming swords in fencing.. please explain to me how you could have possibly made that error. -_-
That's easily 99% of HEMA guys who trash sport fencing, a bunch of neckbeards wanting to live out their wet dreams of taking the holy land finding a sporterised version of Renaissance dueling swordsmanship.
Metatron, I'm about to celebrate 25 years of fencing this June. And I picked it up just to see what it was like, at a local YMCA. In answer to a few of your points. 1. You joined the wrong club with the wrong coach. She should very much have allowed you to use the French grip. 2. Foil is pretty much a very physical dance. The skill is tempered by the rules of Right Of Way (ROW). ROW was originally developed to keep young noblemen alive in duals. But it its application has been carried to ridiculous extremes, starting in the 1970s. Back in the 90s when I started, there was a time I thought the rule was the guy who pulls his arm "back" first and came running forward was the attacker. Since then it's been cleaned up, a little. 3. You didn't like the sword, aka Epee? I'm going to guess you were hoping it is more like the fencing you saw in the movies with Errol Flynn. Up until the late 70s it was probably a game you could get into, if not love. But since then the game has become far more physical. And the strategy, at least at the Olympic level, was driven by not attacking into the strong points of your opponents' game. A lot of that was driven by a Swede named Johan Harmenberg, who won the 1980 Olympics in Epee. Since then the fencers are simply driven to be faster, to overcome the opponents' technique with superior physical ability.
HEMA practitioners when a modern olympic sport is not a historic life or death battle 🤬🤬🤬😭😭😭(not once did anyone ever suggest that it was) I'm so fed up of HEMA nerds complaining about a completely separate sport not being the same as one they like just because they assumed it would be It's like a rugby player going to play American football and then badmouthing the sport as a whole because it isn't the same thing Fencers might not be sword-fighting but at least they're not annoying and pretentious
The one exception to the tempo example given, is when you're manipulating your opponents body, because unless your opponent knows exactly what you're going to do, he's going to have a hard time reacting to both your actions and his own involuntary actions. Say someone is picking on you, underestimates you, because you're unarmed and get an attack frontally or from above....you move out of the line of attack and take the wrist moving it slightly, turn your hand around from guarding the attack to grip and pull the opponent out of balance, step alongside, guard against a possible sucker-punch retaliation and punch gut with hand that pulled out of balance and kick while opponent tries to recover balance. Opponent down on the ground and quite hurt. Still only so much you can do before the opponent reacts, but if you control the reactions until opponent is out of commission. I hope I've made my point clear.
It has a use. As entertainment, as a sport, or just as physical exercise. Its not the same use it use to have but the same could be said of most swords. Soldiers dont use swords anymore but that dosent make them useless.
Don't shit on the foil, man, it feels freaking awesome wielding one and it is scary as hell to have one break in front of your ribcage because you stepped into the attack like a fool.
No offense here, but your expectations were/are moderately cringey. You entered fencing not even knowing what HEMA even was, yet you basically expected to become a knight using a sport.
I would consider it a mix between a southern English accent and a southern Italian accent as I am an Italian who has lived in England for a while (and in Japan but I have no Japanese influence in my English) so you weren't too far off :) My accent is non-rhotic and in terms of pronunciation of single words it's southern English, but the intonation is were my Italian accent comes back, so this is why you feel it to be odd. Normally when I go back and visit England my intonation goes back to English, but while living in Italy I am surrounded by Italians so my English does get influenced by that "melody"
Tell me if I am wrong. You speak fast as Italian. So your english looks faster than average. As a French Canadian it is the same(even for people from france) we have a dialect that use some contractions. Like when we say: Il y a. We actualy say Ya. So we speak fast.
I love getting a few of my friends together to practice swordfighting with. Do we have instructors? Not really, but we all still enjoy it. We slice and stab at each other, and we block and parry. We focus on how to get around defenses, and how to defend against the new offensive techniques. Of course we are learning slower than if we did have an instructor, but we are still learning how to fight. We have two separate "game modes". One is where a strike to a body part will weaken the opponent in said area, and where a strike that would kill ends the round. The other one is where we just fight until either you or the opponent can't fight anymore. The one who gets tired first loses. Why did I put this here? Just to put out what my friends and I like to do as a hobby. Is it viable as real combat training? I can't say that it is. Is it a real sport? Maybe not, but it is what we enjoy doing over the two aforementioned alternatives.
I have many years of fencing experience, I've built like 57 fences.
lol
Most of my experience has been in tearing down fences.
57 you say, but how many was a Fencing Duel? I mean anyone can build a fence, but it takes guts to duel, building against each other in all manner of haste and aggression
TO THE DEATH! No...to the Pain!
...I don't think I'm quite familiar with that phrase.
I started fencing at the recommendation of a HEMA practitioner that I met in Britain. The reason he recommended it as a starting point was because it would train my body to react quickly to sudden attacks and would give me basic ground work to build upon. I was very lucky that the instructor at my university was a man who would teach the competitive techniques, but also taught the original techniques and then explained why they fell out of use in competitive fencing. He also added Italian longsword into the cycle of classes that he does. In that class, one of the students asked what techniques would be allowed in a fight with longswords. His response was "Anything that works. If they leave their crotch unguarded, kick them there. If the come in to grapple, bite them if you have to. The techniques I'm teaching aren't to be used on the field of honor. This scenario would be that someone is coming at me with a sword and only one of us is walking away, and I'd use every dirty trick in the book to make sure it was me walking away."
Hi dude. This reply is just for the sake of achieving the closest we have to time travel. This was from 6 years ago, would love to hear how you are doing now.
@@its_dey_mate i second this
same how are you doing now?
The problem is not fencing as a sport, the problem was the mismatch between your interests and expectations and what Olympic fencing is. When people are trying to practice and prepare for tournaments and bouts, having someone complaining about the pistol grip being historically inaccurate is a distraction, which may have irritated your teacher. My college fencing club actually started explaining to new club members that fencing is an athletic sport and not historical simulation so that people who really want to do HEMA don't waste their time. I'm glad you found HEMA, but clearly, Olympic fencing is for you what golf is for me - a sport you don't like.
This is the most truth I've heard from a RUclips comment in a long time. Thank you for saying this.
Exactly
Golf is good!
Honestly though, I kinda get the pistol grip complaints. Historical accuracy be damned, the idea of fencing with that just looks weird and weirdness takes away from the coolness of a sword. Still interested in fencing though
@@Stryfe52 For most people, pistol grips just work better for Olympic foil and epee fencing. If you actually start fencing, the grip will stop looking weird very quickly. French and Italian grips that don't look like the pistol grip are perfectly legal (or you can just fence saber where pistol grips are never used), and you can use them if you want, but there's a reason you'll find yourself in a small minority if you do. Fencers choose their equipment to maximize their chances of winning, and among fencers, nothing makes you look cooler than winning!
But there are literal olympic athletes especially in Epee that use french grip. So its kind of rude for the teacher to "block" using it. She can say that generally people prefer pistol grips for XY reasons but some use the french grip for XY reasons and that the pistol grip is considered "better". Then if he insist, let him use the french grip.
As someone who has fenced Sabre for six years, I can definitely confirm that fencing is not by any means a "sword fight." It is, like you said, a sport. Sadly, I think that going into it hoping that it would be more than that is probably why you ended up dropping it. Yes, there are a few practical uses of it, but it is far from what a lot of people hope it is when they start it. Many people end up dropping fencing once they realize this, however as someone who has stuck with it for many years I can assure you that in terms of strategy it does become more complicated, and new moves are introduced, but for the most part it just stays the (lovable) sport that it is. Besides for the screaming, which has become the plague of Sabre tournaments now (as the directors allow glass shattering screeching from the girls for some reason), I feel it is still a pretty rewarding sport to keep up with :)
Respect.
"Besides for the screaming, which has become the plague of Sabre tournaments" - lol why do the women scream???
God....working an RJCC last weekend...cadet women's sabre....I do not know HOW you scream like that and not call every dog for miles.
Violence of action. The "Ki" shout as it were.
Why fence only sabre? I do all 3 not competitively but for fun it's a lot better in my opinoin to do classical fencing and speed rounds then tournaments but that's just my opinoin I'd love to hear what you think and what's your favorite part of fencing my favorite part is making friends
My math teacher in grade 8/9 was teaching us about multiplying polynomials, specifically through the FOIL technique (First Outside Inside Last). On the work sheet was a picture of a fencing sword!
...
It was an epee.
to develop better problem solving skills
BARBATUS 89 Really dude?? The Ballet point is a little stretch, the body needs activity in general that is why there are gym classes.
Math is proven to develop problem solving, even for the every day life, by your comments it just seems that you had awful teachers
BARBATUS 89 1) Don't know about America, I'm Italian
2)Never said I was against ballet, I just said that it is not a good comparison with math
3) As I already said even if you'll never use polynomials, math trains your brain in a way that will make you better at decision making and problem solving in the every day life
4)I blame instructors because you still haven't got the fact that math is not just about solving equations
5) I Never defended the system, I'm defending math, totally different
BARBATUS 89 - chill dude. Many kids in America are fat because they eat very poor diets and they sit on their asses too much. Whether it is gym class, ballet, football, tennis, boxing, martial arts, weight training, dancing, parkour, whatever activity, you can still take these and not do them correctly, intensively enough, or not at all. Everyone doing ballet would make for a very boring world without a multitude of sports or entertainment. Let people decide which sporting activity they want to do, and don't over prescribe what they should do in their free time. Some people would just not be able to succeed at ballet anyway. Let those interested or with talent do it, but let's get kids playing more sport and doing more physical activity. A lot aren't and it is because they are just sitting watching tv or playing video games that is the problem not lack of ballet.
As for your comments about maths and polynomials I agree to a certain extent, but whether it is used or not is irrelevant. If this were the case we wouldn't do history, chemistry, physics, in fact most subjects you don't use later in life. The thing is some people do and you can't know which of these subjects you will use. If by your reasoning you only have one maths class a year and this had been applied to where Albert Einstein went to school do you think he'd have become the scientist he was? No. New technologies and advancements in all areas come precisely because maths is taught. It is the foundation stone of physics and engineering, as well as all the indirect benefits of problem solving. You are like the Marie Antoinette of ballet - let them just take ballet and everything will be ok!!! The only way I would agree with you is if you can identify at a very early age what people are going to be then this could be possible, but kids develop at different ages and change their minds as they get older. Humans are not robots who can be trained in what they need at the time, not in certain disciplines anyway. If you want to stay stuck in the past with no technological development then go down your path. There would be a lot of good ballet, but not much else. Learning when you are in school is supposed to be fun. It is as much about finding what you are good at and what you want to be and just learning new things, having the world opened up to you so you can discover your own path. It shouldn't be prescribed in the path you describe. We need to develop and move forward. Without some of Einstein's theories we wouldn't have satellite communications, tv's, cellphones, nuclear power to name a few technologies. So what you say is absolute rubbish.
BARBATUS 89 A few initial comments and I will try and keep this short.
Firstly everyone is different and has almost natural talents at something, whether it be physical or academic, social, or artistic. You can probably teach everyone ballet, and they'd probably get to a certain level, and it would improve their health, but they wouldn't all become as good as those natural at it, and some people who aren't very talented in that area would probably here it as much as you hate doing polynomials, maybe even to the extent that they write longest post ever on a social media site!!!
Secondly both my parents are teachers so I know a little about this. Learning is not about learning facts, but understanding and interpreting so you can apply what you've learnt to other texts or other situations. That is how education has changed from how it was, even 30 years ago when I was in school. That's not to say remembering facts isn't a useful skill to have, but just being able to regurgitate facts does not show how intelligent someone is, it shows how good at regurgitating facts they are.
Thirdly and I'm sure that I mentioned this in my post before. Just because you don't use polynomials doesn't mean that others don't. When you were forced to learn algebra and calculus I'm sure most people don't know what they want to do in life, and so it is part of a common curriculum so that those that end up in a profession is these have the necessary skills. Not having them at this time and you might never know if you like doing this kind of learning or are even naturally talented in this area. I did it too, I loved it at the time, but I don't use it at all now. I don't see it as a waste of time though because it taught me how to think laterally and problem solved in what I do now working in IT.
You seem to think everything you can't remember now is a waste of time. I suppose if you were say a car mechanic now you'd think everything was a waste of time and everyone should have been learning how to fix cars instead of doing polynomials equations? But if you were say a astrophysicist you might think fixing a car was a waste of your time and you should have been doing polynomial equations instead. Sure there are more car mechanics than astrophysicists, but we still need the latter as we have had technological developments like microwave ovens and GPS on our smartphones that come from having people study and work in these areas. You are a Neanderthal if you think like this. We may as well just go back to living in caves, well you can, I'll stick to the world as it is now, moving forward. I can tell now what kind of person you are. You don't believe in evolution, you don't believe in Einstein, but the fact you are writing this at all is down to the theories he proposed because we wouldn't have modern day computers or other devices without this. This is fact. Polynomials and Einstein Law of General Relativity describes how satellites orbit the earth and accounts for things that aren't experience as much here on earth did to things like the speed of the satellite being fast and this having effects on how time is experienced by it as it moves around the planet.
Lastly it isn't about defending grief, greed, they, warmongering, or anything else like this. These are things humans have done to reach other and aren't in the slightest anything to do with science and technology. Science and technology has done far more good for mankind than you'll ever know. It is just that some men and women make bad decisions, usually in self interest and things can go down a path that leads to very bad place.
You really are dumb if you think a voluntary basis to schooling is the right way to go. No kid is going to learn anything if you do this, they'd much prefer to be out there playing in the mud, and not learn anything useful that would benefit them in living their lives.
Kids should be encouraged to try and find something they enjoy, which is often the thing they are good at. If every kid tries out ballet then I have no problem with this. Those that have and interest, like it, or are good at it will continue to do it. We don't need to force it on anyone. Those who prefer football can do football, those who like tennis can do tennis, and we find the best fit for everyone. As long as every child does something that keeps them fit there is no problem. Forcing people to do ballet when they don't want to is what the Communists in the Soviet Union would have done. And before you comment but you're forcing kids to do polynomials, well that is different. There are certain subjects that are core because they develop skills necessary for later in life and might benefit human kind down the line.
You are so in school I'm guessing from some of your comments? If you are and you are being just taught facts then wherever you are the school and the teachers are bad. That or what and how they are being told to teach you is wrong. I'm guessing you are in the States somewhere because kids just aren't taught that way here in the UK anymore, not for the last 30 years anyway. If you think you have mocked me and debunked anything I've said you are wrong and deluding yourself. You seem to be quite intelligent and can put arguments together, but you don't know very much. I wish you a lot of luck in the future, and with your ballet.
i stopped watching kitten videos for this
Good.
What an honour xD
Mephistopheles - now if only they could make a fencing kittens video
Daaaamn!!
I was a European fencer with epee for 12 years and switched to Kendo 16 years ago. I know both very well my accumulated experience is 28 years, so to say :). I participated in many European Worldcup Tournaments in fencing, in several European Championships in Kendo and I'm a go-dan now.
In fact fencing helps a lot. But only much later not in the beginning. Movement and technique are very different but the tactical concepts are still very similar and you need the same killer instinct.
But at the end it's always a "game". No blood, no kills. And that's a good thing.
Harald Hofer Respect !
Harald Hofer , Why stick with Kendo so long after your epee experience?
Yes! Fencing teaches you how to measure distance like no other sport. As a 10 year nationally ranked fencer, I found that these skilled heavily carried over to my wrestling and boxing
I mean measure and all is fine, but neither of these sports put any value on defense really and thats where they fall flat.
As in, no sport that ignores afterblows can come anywhere close to a fight.
@@merlball8520 because it's so much fun... 😁
As a long life fencer: having a problem with fencing as a martial arts, is like having a problem with tennis as a wrong representation of shooting a bow and arrow. In other words, it doesn't make sense. I love fencing, and I completely respect that you were disappointed in it because you wanted something more real to life, not a sports activity. But no fencing teacher worth its weight is going to claim he/she will teach you a viable martial arts. If they do, find another teacher please. Can fencers gain inspiration from martial arts such as HEMA or kendo? Sure, they are completely free to do so, but that is only to broaden their fencing experience.
I didn't know tennis was a straight descendant of the bow and arrow
@@milewesler9592 I don’t think it is?😅
@@Janisurai what a astute observation. However FENCING. was the sword, it just downgraded over many years. So it is a quite misleading " game. "
@@milewesler9592 Replace 'bow and arrow' with real tennis (i.e the style of tennis that Henry VIII would've played) and the OP's point still stands. Sure, it's an interesting game (I've even given it a go) and really fun in its own right, but it's not modern lawn tennis where having a massive serve is 70% of the game, you can bounce off walls and most of the game is actually about the 'chase' (which doesn't exist in the modern game). Source: I'm a 5.0 USTA and an aggressive noob at real tennis.
Fencing is the lawn tennis equivalent of HEMA/martial art. Is it inspired by actual smallsword/saber techniques? Yup. Will practicing fencing make you better at using the actual weapons? Generally no, though there are some transferable skills (similar to lawn vs real tennis) -- I practice smallsword and rapier at a HEMA club in addition to olympic foil and most of my HEMA is just foil with a different coat of paint. The footwork, distance and parries carry over magnificently.
I don't like foil. It's rough, course and irritating
Sigurd Torvaldsson Not like sword. Sword’s all soft and smooth.
Anakin quote
Sigurd Torvaldsson coarse#
Hello there
@@franciscofunari2343 why did you give up the high ground Mr Kenobi?
As someone who mainly fences foil (currently a 'B' in USFA's system), consider this a contrary perspective. There seems to be a notion in the comments that foil is 'useless' outside the specific ruleset in modern fencing. That, to put it charitably, is BS. Foil as a discipline forces you to master a number of blade actions and distance management. You can't just turtle by forcing doubles, like you can in Epee. You have to parry and riposte. You can't just focus on low risk arm picks. You have to set up a deep attack to the torso. You can't rely on getting points through doubles. You have to take the initiative and set up attacks because of ROW. The closest analogy I can give you is learning tennis vs pickleball. Tennis forces you to use body rotation and master technique whereas pickleball is a lot more forgiving on form and athleticism.
It's quite well known within fencing that if you're sufficiently advanced in foil, you can pretty much switch to Epee without a lot of training and do well against anyone who is not a very high level competitor. As an example, I've never trained in Epee at all, but am currently a 'C' in USFA's system. Likewise, I've seen 'U's and 'E's (the lowest ratings currently possible) in foil consistently beat Bs and Cs in Epee when they try foil. At one of our in-house club tournaments, a foil fencer who'd only joined about a year earlier easily beat (5-1) an A rated Saber fencer who'd been fencing since he was 7. Put simply, the skills you develop in foil translate the best into other weapons and going the other way is far more difficult. So, no disrespect to your coach, but she should've insisted that you do at least a couple of months of foil.
I also practice HEMA rapier and smallsword (though mainly recreationally and somewhat for the scholarship) and foil translates even better to those depending on the ruleset. Once you're really good at distance and timing, even without knowing exact techniques, you can land covered hits against people who've only done HEMA just through footwork. Though they'll probably beat you if you get into a grapple.
Pistol grip vs french grip: I've fenced with both. I like fencing french when I'm at the club and sometimes use it competitively in Epee. In competitive foil though, you'd have to be idiot to pick french over pistol. The pistol grip pretty much forces your tip to point the right way. It's more or less impossible to dislodge the blade from your hand and your blade actions are a lot stronger. If I were teaching someone fencing, I'd probably start them out in french but basically tell them to switch to pistol if they have any desire to fence in a tournament.
You would have enjoyed sabre alot more. Pistol grip does not exist in sabre fencing, at least not that I have seen. You also get to slash as well as stab, which opens up alot of moves and more swinging motion.
Look, fencing is a sport. View it the same way you would view boxing. Yea it will help in a sword fight against an untrained guy, but it would likely lose to just about every other sword style out there thats actually designed for combat. Fencing is not. It is a sport that evolved from combat into just that: a sport.
Aaron Paul I personally hate sabre fencing, did epee fencing for 8 years and at some point our clubs sabre fencers asked me to join them for practice so did that as well on the side for 2-3 years but I hated it so much that if you have a bad referee, the match will be horrible.. I know I might sound like I'm making up excuses but I just got the feeling that it's too much of a referee sport to decide who has the advantage in a situation.. At the point when referee feels like third participant in the match, it's all wrong.
Boxing is useful in hand to hand combat, just as TKD, Karate and other fully stand-up forms are. Perhaps more useful than the point sparring tournaments in the latter two that I mentioned, but in a real fight it is still incomplete. Only MMA, which incorporates boxing with the awareness and tactical understanding of the possibility of being pulled off of your feet, is a truly complete hand-to-hand combat system. Boxing has proven more effective and useful in recent years of MMA competition as boxers and kickboxers have become more rounded and skilled at defending against takedowns and capitalizing on the shortcomings of many grapplers who thought that they would alway be able to get away with only knowing grappling, but takedown defense requires a slight adjustment to the traditional boxing stance and style of defense. Boxing defense tends to focus on head and torso movement and without fear of takedowns, a good defensive boxer can frequently drop most of their weight to their back foot while avoiding combinations but in MMA, this opens you up for feinted takedown maneuvers. That's why even experienced boxers have learned to avoid this and slightly adjust their stance to remained prepared for takedown defense when fighting in MMA. Either that or be like Anderson Silva, who was so good with BJJ submissions from his back that he could carry a traditional boxing stance without concern since he could effectively defend and submit his opponent after a successful takedown.
lutin grognon
Lol like you would beat a pro saber fencer. You couldn't even come closer to him. He would beat you on footwork alone. Of course fencing will give you a great advantage to a normal person, same as boxing. Give Szilagy a couple of weeks of training and I doubt even the best HEMA fighter could beat him
Roberto Calvo I realize how fencer talks like a ballerina, boasting how powerful their « footwork » are with their legs in tights. Well unfortunately historically fencing technique will be worse then useless in real fight, since all single hand swords were used along with shields, which make most of the fencing techniques redundant if not dangerous. Another popular weapon will be polearms like halberd which were heavier and longer reach then your sword making your moves suicidial. Not to mention they all wore armour historical making your weapon completely useless even it hit on the enemy.
Even in horseback fighting there were also technique of circling enemy with agile horses (which hussars like to use), unlike the well narrowed stage in fencing sport which forbids much movement
@Remove Talos
Footwork, timing and distance control are extremely important in sword fighting, all of those are taught in fencing. Most HEMA clubs never emphasize those as much as they should.
"That's like a gun-toothpick." 😂😂
I know competitive fencers sometimes sort of patronize HEMA folks, which is unfortunate. Speaking as a long time and very high level sport Sabre fencer, as well as a long time disciple of both German and Italian longsword, I cant hold my piece any longer.
Metatron, and all other fellow HEMA folks- modern sport fencing is still very much fencing. The two biggest critiques I hear are “sport fencers aren’t afraid of being hit so long as they get there first” and the pistol grip complaint- more on that in a moment.
In sport fencing, we have a concept called “right of way” (in foil and Sabre) which evolves from the historical idea of having to address an incoming attack before attacking in turn in order to increase one’s chance of survival. The goal is still to do everything one can to hit without being hit. That’s called a “one light” touch. It’s what we do our very best to achieve. That way there can be no question who scored. HEMA has the same issue. Even at the very highest levels currently available, the vast majority of modern HEMA fighters will always try to attack into an attack. I see this all the time with my club- I attack fast and from distance, in a straight cut, and yet ALL of my club mates will just swing right into me, rather than address my attack first. It’s so prevalent that you will see it happening just as commonly in high level HEMA as in sport fencing. So, please stop the critiques.
Point two- the pistol grip. The pistol grip was designed originally for competitive foil and epee fencers to maximize the ergonomic potential of one’s hand to increase speed and tip precision aka “point control”. And it really does. The goal of sport fencing is to both: learn to fight, but also to compete against others and that means you have to train every part of yourself to be the fastest, most precise and most athletic you can be. It typically flows much faster than it looks, meaning that it also is usually moving much faster than most historical fencers (long sword excluded) typically move. At those speeds, and having to hit with a very small part of your sword, the extra precision allowed by the pistol grip makes all the world of difference. I had me reservations with it when I first saw it, but it really is a huge help at competitive speeds.
Lastly- as to your training. Listen, I’m not gonna criticize the club you went to, but they should have started you with foil. The rules and techniques of it provide a very basic info to the other two disciplines. Most successful training programs follow this method and, as a former instructor myself, students of mine who began with foil always outperformed those who did not. I was a Sabre man myself, even made alternate on the US World Team in 2003. Sabre was the perfect fit for me as it’s all about speed and aggression, but without my basis in foil, I never could have gotten where I did.
Sorry to rant, but sometimes both competitive and HEMA fencers get entirely too “high horse” about their respective disciplines and I figured my perspective as having spent my whole life studying both might shed some light here.
I like the explanation, you make good points. And now I really want to fence sabre at your club
Perhaps my experience is too limited, but I haven't heard any claims of superiority from the sport fencer side. HEMA is simply too small for most people to have even heard of it, much less criticize.
On the other hand, respect to you for your skills!
Long boring comment, stopped reading at the second sentence.
As a fellow fencer (though not on your level) I agree with nearly all of this except the right of way part. Yes it exists, but it doesn't encourage you to try and strike without getting hit, it just encourages you to strike first (or in a way where you have right of way). I mean even if parry and gain the right of way as a defender your not really deflecting the attack. Your just trying to tap their blade so that you can attack back and get the right of way. After you touch their blade to yours you don't care if they hit you, you just want to hit them as quick as you can before the lockout kicks in on the scorebox. Also, the pistol grip did make my hand hurt after extended sessions. It's just really awkward feeling, even if it does make point control a LITTLE easier.
As an épée fencer I can say that we dont really patronize HEMA. Actually a lot of people at my club think it's cool, and everyone at my club is Korean
Technically, foil is not a toy, it's a training aid for a short sword, which is a real actual lightweight weapon that was designed to be portable in cities and was carried around by the nobility. In fact, the nobility was obliged to wear a weapon. That weapon was supposed to be used against a guy protected by metal plates by poking in the holes in the armor. Also, the "ignoring the threat" thing also had its purpose in the training. It was supposed to help the learner to acquire the proper technique that is useful in combat. I'm assuming that the idea was: in a real combat, the fear of being cut will naturally come back. But applying good technique will make your hits more lethal, parries more effective and that advantage is what counts in a real combat. Look at Sabre for example: just scratch the opponent's arm and the lamp goes on. Or Epee: you touch opponent's toenail and you score the point - that only counts in 19'th century duels, but has nothing to do with combat. So, in my humble opinion, modern foil is closest of all three to what you need to prepare for a real combat on small swords. Of course, except for the flicks.
When i was first learning fencing, I started with a straight grip, and it wasn't "bad" for fencing, but when i began using a pistol grip, i found my movements and thrusts to be much more fluid. At this point i still prefer the pistol group for the purpose of fencing.
Pistol grip is the bomb
Hi Metatron :)
As a practicioner of both olympic and historical fencing (I am currently studying to become a Historical and Artristic Fencing Instructor at the Accademia Nazionale di Scherma), I have to say there's a point very few people grasp: They're the same discipline, but with different rulesets and weapons. Fencing, or "Scherma" is a martial art that goes beyond the weapon you're using.
There are universal pinciples (speed, tempo and timing, distance, strategy and tactics) that are applied differently based on what's the game that we're playing: if the game is killing each other with a sabre, for example, of course I will have to effectively parry your blow and riposte on the neck with a proper cut; but if the game is switching on a light with the right-of-way rule, I will just touch your blade and poke you on the arm, so that the referee gives me the point even if you scored a split second before me.
What doesn't change is the underlying mentality of the duellist.
The right-of-way rule was born as a mean to preserve duelling gentlemen's life, to maintain a better "frase d'armi" or construction of the conclusive action in order to avoid a double hit or "colpo delle due vedove". So it's actually one of the most "historical" components of modern olympic fencing.
What happened then, what created this aberration of fencing, is that the mean turned into an end, so all the technique is being thrown away in favour of this game of electrified tag. Probably to make it easier and accessible to more people. We leave theoretical discussion to enter FIE politics here, which I'm not really into.
And, tecnhically, REAL swordsmanship is dead and there's nothing we can do about it. We cannot practice ACTUAL swordfighting without dying, being badly injured or ending up in jail after the first bout. So we have to make compromise: olympic fencing is a good one, because it withholds all the technical and theoretical components of real fencing, even though the outcome is a bit crappy (but I'll make an exception for Epee here, which I think is the most HEMAish because it's non-conventional, and therefore more "realistic"... Yes, I'm an epeeist 😜); HEMA is another compromise, but in my opinion in the HEMA community there is too much pedantry on the interpretation of one or another specific treatise, and not enough good use of fencing principles, so the result is a bit crappy in HEMA competitions as well...
The best approach would be, in my opinion, to learn the proper mindset by attending foil (OH THE HORROR) or sabre lessons with a maestro (not instructor), and then move over to non-conventional fencing such as epee and/or longsword, sword and buckler etc.
Perhaps sooner or later I'll make a proper video about this point and explain better 🙂
Peace :D
P.S. Yes, when you start epee with no fencing background, it's better to use a pistol grip at first... The french one requires a bit more dexterity, so your instructor was right 😆
P.P.S. Epee also has, of course, a big aberration, which is a double point for a double hit, instead of 0 points. So if we're, say, 11-13 I will just attack over your attack and seek the double hit so that I score 15 before you. That's what makes me think that the best ruleset for historical fencing is one similar to epee, but with no points for the double.
Scoring boxes did also mean you would not need 5 ref's to watch a single match. Tournaments in the UK can struggle to get 1 ref for a match let alone 5.
The thing I also find when people use french grips is that they hold it too tightly and much like a club.
Thank you. As a fencer myself I love your reply.
Not totally dead... they do real duels in south american prisons (yeah, they fight to death). Of course, they dont use olympic stuff but home made, but the principle is the same, very long thin and flexible blades that can both cut and stab, being the stab the usual movement.
To be honest. I saw some video of HEMA tournaments and they tend to be emberrassing. I understand the mindset is "kill without dying", but I've seen too many people just running at each other, trying to move the opponent's weapon out of the way and then grappling in a very brawl-like manner. I lost all my interest in hema after seeing these competitions. I like technique, not brawling.
Always wanted to try fencing but I'm too short for it. I have many years of experience in semi-contact (which is a rule system in kick boxing that is extremely similar to fencing) and I painfully learned that height is a huge advantage.
He didn't read it anyways🤣
I also like swords, and I prefer the French grip, but unlike you I love fencing and the idea of an 18th or 19th century gentlemen's duel. I never really was fixated on MEDIEVAL swordsmanship. And besides, with my skill in fencing, I feel that I can use pretty much any sword with some success. Also I came to really admire Fencing for what it is, or is descended from - it has such precision and technique!
I think your argument with regards to the grip deserves much more discourse. Your argument is basically that's not a sword grip, but weapons have historically had different grips. I can see how you might say that it is more like a katar vs a sword, but you could imagine that had swords continued to develop, the grip would have evolved.
I think you should talk about why a pistol grip isn't better, or when it is not appropriate rather than it's not a sword handle.
As someone who has a year of foil experience i can say that those swords aren't as wobbly as they appear the reason they appear so is because of the incredible speed and strength of the olympians that for some reason Elitists like to compare all of fencing to.
And also an optical illusion :), as the fencers are gamboling as well so their hands go up and down too. Similar like our childhood's "wobbly pencil" trick. I've had the same experience with epee. When I was given a handful of blades to choose from, my first reaction was: "wow, this is rigid" (compared to what I've expected).
Your video reminds of several things I have experienced in the past. I too learned Olympic Fencing (OF) because I was interested in swords and there was no HEMA school near by.
I came away with a great respect for OF. Yes, there are things in OF that are not realistic as you mention. You have to realize that allot of these rules were created before safety gear was readily available the way it is today. But overall, it will teach you allot and develop reflexes and corrdination. I have always incorporated many things that I leared in fencning even when learning Filipino knife fighting and they have worked very well. For example, in OF I was taught to always have my weapon infront of me and to have the point at the opponent. I guess I learned that from epee and foil fencning. I also learned the effectiveness of thrust. I would spar with allot of people in knife fighting and some of them were supposed to be very advanced students. They would do weird things with the grips, blades positioned not infront of them, and even moving the blades around. I know this sounds very arrogant but I ususally ended stabbing many of them with no problems: I just treated soemwhat like a OF match.
Yes, there are some goofy rules in OF but if your techniques don't work then you don't win. That makes it very utilitarian. You are correct in that there are allot of people and schools who talk a good game but fall apart on the field. They have come up with some really dumb stuff that doesn't work.
I think OF has allot to offer and with some adjustment, it can lend itself to some very practical technique.
yea in OF you learn coordination really well and the reflexes you need in Sabre are only matched by table tennis players in the olympic games
What style of FMA have you been learning?
My case in point! 👍🏼
I did 5 years of fencing (foil) before moving onto HEMA and I have no regrets. it taught me to keep distance and good footwork.
I do not know if You will see this, but just a thought:
I am a national coach of Olympic Fencing with many years of experiance. From my point of view there is a high chance that your instructor was right:
Womens epee it is a 50:50 decision if You should go for pistol or french grip men epee is more like 90% pistol 10% french. Men hit the blade much harder so You really need to be the type for the french grip.
second: for french grip you are fencing much more out of the rythmus of your footwork (if you start late with fencing (and what I could see of your body type) it is hard to get to the point where you can outmaneuver your oponet with your superiour footwork).
3. from Your kendo & hema experiance you should be more used to "talk" with the blade then with your footwork.
4. it is strange to me that you refuse the pistol grip, the roman army was very open to modernasation and improcement
I like your videos, but this one doesn't make much sense... Olympic fencing is a SPORT. it is not meant to be a historical knight fight reenactment XD. I used to do foil fencing myself. Of course thats not realistic combat... It never was meant to be... Foil is the most technical weapon out of the three.
For people who don't know: both Foil and Epee are thrust weapons only. In Epee, all targets are valid. From the foor to the helmet. In Foil, only the body and crotch (lol) are. Arms, Helmets and legs are not valid. The Epee is a very stiff triangular blade, while the foil is a small rectangular blade that is very bendy. You can actually hit your opponent in the back in foil (would technically be legal in Epee, but good luck bending that triangular blade XD). In Sabre, everything from the waist up is valid, and you can both thrust and slash. The blade is also triangular, so it's quite stiff. It is not as fat as the Epee. There are other difference in the rules as well between the three weapons but I guess that gives you guys an idea.
Fencing is a beutiful sport. But don't take it as a realistic fight reenactment... it's not! Its an individual sport, much like Tennis...
I think it may have been Matt Easton that addressed this point, but it might have been Skallagrim. Don't remember which it was, but one of the gentlemen made the point that the reason so many people /want/ to see Olympic Fencing as "real sword fighting!" is because until Hema started getting mainstream (something extremely recent), fencing and Kendo were the only widely available outlets for learning how to (in theory) handle a sword. Because fencing, for a long time has been, at least on the surface, one of the only formal ways to PROPERLY learn to handle a sword, a lot of people have forced themselves into confirmation bias that "No, it's not just a sport it's real sword fighting, because that's what I came here to learn, because nowhere else taught it!"
turmat01 thank you someone who actually has experience in fencing like I. I get that people think fencing is a actual sword fight but in the end it’s just a sport and people don’t get it.
As you say Olympic fencing was never meant to be anything but a sport. By the time the Olympics came about swords were declining in military use. To be fair, early sport fencing schools were teaching fencing both as sport and for military use. Angelo's School of Arms was one if the first (if not the first) to shift toward the sport aspect, but even they also were teaching British infantry soldiers how to use their swords for realzies. They taught a method for real swordsmanship that could also be used for sport/physical fitness. Kinda like how military bootcamp is designed to condition you as a soldier, but you can also just use it as a fitness program. It became really popular as a sport and over time it shifted away from military focus and eventually dropped it entirely by the time Olympic fencing started. So it has its origins in real fencing and I personally can't fault anyone for being disappointed that it has lost that element.
I would like to see a 4th category added to the Olympics that goes back to earlier fencing rules emulating a real duel. You could call that a form of HEMA, but I'd be ok if it stayed sportified and just ditched certain rules. Keep the limited target areas but do away with right of way penalize doubles so that you can't just get one point and then double out in Epee.
Raf, I agree with your point, and that's the reason I chose the saber to train olimpic fencing when I was young.
At my city it was the closest thing to a real sword combat.
Best wishes
As a foilist, I agree completely with your assessment of foil - it's a game, a modern sport, and it doesn't really represent historical sword fighting at all. I prefer the sport aspect of fencing, its athleticism.
You're a typical HEMA fanatic - you want to feel you're playing with a real sword. But modern fencing isn't about the weapon - matches are won and lost entirely on footwork, distance and timing. The weapon is incidental.
dzfz2100 lame.. history is sad
Both certainly have their benefits. I took Olympic fencing in college and was even top of my class. Like you, I absolutely hate the pistol grip, it's trash but I do understand why they insist. It's all about wrist alignment, with a French grip, your wrist is at an angle which slightly limits your tip control. The pistol grip allows for a downward parry without having to twist your wrist completely over to catch the low thrust.
I have not fenced or done hema. But i have done boxing since i was 15 and i used to think like you when it comes to terms with mma. I wanted to do mma for a long time but only had boxing available and i thought that it would be a disadvantage to spend all those years only working my hands.
Only now i realize how much i learned in boxing and that it was not any harder to unlearn bad habits than to learn new ones, which is also a reason you can see like kickboxers going into the ufc faster than a guy starting with mma from scratch.
I strongly believe it can be the same case with hema and fencing and if you wanna do hema but only have fencing available do the fencing. You definitely will learn hema easier with a background in fencing.
Totally agree with what you say. Many of the HEMA guys have fencing backgrounds.
As someone who did Fencing for around a year of fencing with mostly foils but sometimes sabres I loved the Pistol grip. It felt right in the hand and the movements in fencing felt natural. It's a grip that was made for fencing. Fencing is a sport not combat and as a sport it's great but there are elements of it that can work in a martial context. The footwork you get from fencing is second to none and to this day even after years of not really practicing it I can easily close or widen my distance against an aggressor easily and if I'm carrying a knife I know I'm able to get close to anyone who wants to do me harm. While I ended up giving my foil, with the great pistol grip, away I like any Puerto Rican own a Machete, I still like to practice the sabre forms with it and fool around a bit. But yeah Olympic Fencing, specially with foils is mostly a points game. My teacher who trained the Olympic team use to say that back in his day people really hit each other hard so that the Judge could know who hit first but this days with electronic sensors mostly replacing Judges it became all about speed. I understand as someone who was more interested in Historical 14th Century Swordplay to not be a fan of modern Fencing equipment but there's a reason for it to be that way. A Pistol grip for example is great to protect your wrist and have the right form all the time while using a Foil. But with sabre for example you use a more classical sabre handle with hand cover so that is more similar to how a sabre was used in combat. With Swords it's pretty much anything you want to do, it's full body so there's more movement options.
That being said it's your equipment so a trainer forcing you to go to a Pistol Grip is definetely not good. A good teacher simply let's the student grab a couple of equipments and see which one calls to you so to speak. For foil fencing for me the pistol grip called me and I bought my own online at a bargain, you had to see the reaction in my dorm when a long ass box came for me lol.
Has anyone gone from HEMA to Olympic fencing? It would be neat to hear your experience.
I just started HEMA, specifically German Longsword, and I find that my 3 year prior Kendo experience is helping me greatly, the primary thing I need to learn at the moment is stepping out of line and defending myself while making my attacks but there is a decent amount of carry over and I feel like it's helped me progress much quicker than I would have with no prior martial art experience.
fencing is for whimps, real men throw pommels!
Real men come up with original jokes.
Ranziel1 you sure foiled that guy
ranziel ended travis rightly
You must end him rightly!
*SCA rapier melee, throws pommel
the foil was invented to prepare for the duel. parry and attack is the most basic thing to survive. attacking the dead zones, the torso in particular, is much more effective than piercing a foot or an arm, and being killed by an instinctive riposte ... I suppose that the chevalier de Saint George, great French foilist of the eighteenth century and the most formidable duellist of his time would not say the opposite ... I like Metatron's analysis, even those little inaccuracies that allow us to intervene at the right moment.
Spot on. People who don't know fencing and don't know foil discount it without really understanding the background and history. And have never gone up against a good foilist...
Since I just started going back to classes for competition fencing, I feel this needs to be shared. The instructor commented on how we no longer think of them as swords, so we will do things you'd never do with a live blade. His suggestion? Hook the swords up to car batteries. "If you knew every time that hit you, you'd feel that zap, you'd focus a lot more on not getting hit."
Not fearing for your life while fencing or practicing any kind of swordplay will kind of ruin the reality of it, but where would we end up if people would be killed in olympic fencing?
Same can be said with any risk/reward activity. Take poker for instance. If you remove risk of losing money then the game becomes shallow empty shell of what it supposed to be.
I think same can be said about sword fighting aswell. If you know your opponent could kill you then you would be very careful of what you are doing.
I personally think they could implement many rules in olympic fencing to make it more realistic, but i cant say for sure what other impact it would put on the sport. One rule that comes into mind is penalizing for reckless moves, but how would you judge it is another matter entirelly.
What is the one hobby or art that you have actually stuck with? I ask because it seems that you practice many things relatively briefly and then quit them after finding "issues" with them.
Yildirim Indeed, this does seem to be the case. I suppose finding something you really, truly enjoy is sometimes difficult and may involve trying several options, but Metatron has 'issues' with so many things. Not only that, he feels the need to tell the whole world about it. Just try things and move on if necessary.
It’s a good question. Trying and not having things work out is important, though. We want to get the very best use of our time, not just something that is ok.
@@another3997 He feels the need to tell the whole world about it. Thats fine, because we feel the need to watch his videos. Nobody is forcing us.
@@another3997 And for some reason you feel the need to watch his videos abt it, strange huh
A few points as both a competitive fencer and a coach:
Firstly it sounds like you had a REALLY old fashioned coach. I know that on the continent there is a long period of S&C, footwork etc. before you are allowed to fence, but here in the UK we get people fencing within their first hour!
Secondly, I agree that epee is the best, however it doesn't sound like your coach explained the grips properly. The French grip and the Italian grip both give you less strength than the pistol or Belgian. The French grip is just straight and an Italian grip is straight with rings attached to the guard. As the pistol grip gives more strength, the Italian grip fell out of use (I think I've only seen one ever, and that was just an old one a club had for novelty value) but the French remained because of pommeling - holding the grip at the end (the pommel) to give extra reach to offset the disadvantage of reduced strength. You might have had more luck with a Russian grip (sort of a halfway between the two, like a French grip with stubs protruding to add control like a Visconti pistol) or a Belgian.
Thirdly you can cut with a sabre, but like foil it has poxy priority rules. This basically means that if I attack you, you parry me and repost, we both hit at the same time then only you get the point. If we both attack at the same time no-one gets a point. You also can't hit the legs. Supposedly the sabre evolved from the cavalry weapon, which is why below the belt attacks are not valid, as it was bad form to hit your opponents horse. The epee evolved from the duelling weapon, and was to first blood, which is why attacks anywhere are valid. The cutting edge was taken off and the V shape added to create a lighter and therefore faster thrusting weapon. Foil was originally a training weapon to teach blade-work and is just silly.
Lastly and good coach will teach you to not stop when you get the hit, but to carry on until you are told to stop or retreat in a way that protects you, as too often a fencer thinks they have gotten a hit, stopped and been hit themselves. I've seen it happen too often and is something you should have drilled out of you. Maybe fencers with a problem with this should try HEMA cross-training to wallop it out of them.
Two changes would fix sport fencing. First is that the time between your hit and theirs needs to be greatly extended to at least a full second. Second is that double hits need to be punished so that sport fencers have to defend themselves rather than just worry about who touches the other one first.
In Epee yes.
That's not really how sport fencing works outside of Epee though. Foil and Sabre have priority systems where the person who first initiates an attack or who last makes a successful parry/riposte is awarded the point.
It's a massively oversimplified way to determine the winner of the fight, but it is rooted in historical systems; you'll get the same thing if you try to do Broadsword, military sabre, dussack, or even longsword in a modified capacity (see Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, or Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter).
I also like Matt Easton's videos ;)
Those problems only exist in Epee (the one Metatron apparently fenced).
No, there's no need to "fix" anything in fencing. In fact every time they try to do that it only causes more problems. The last time they messed with the foil timings it caused people to start using weird techniques to avoid hits... all because they wanted to "fix" it and get rid of flicking.
The thing is, fencing is a sport and it's not a simulation of sword fighting. If that's what you think sport fencing is or what you want it to be, then you're thinking about it wrong.
squiddypiddy even though it's based off the rapier, it's still very different from one. All of the weapons have some change from their original weapon (foil and small sword, saber and saber, epee and rapier).
Saber is probably closest to it's weapon but real sabers also have probably the most variation of the three based weapons.
Epee is the closest to the original dueling rules of first blood. However there's a reason the other two weapons didn't follow this in the first place.
Epee and Foil both came from the Small sword, which came from the Rapier
I have more than a decade in each of fencing, kendo and Pekiti Tirsia Kali (Filipino martial arts). The first two are clearly sports and the last a study of efficient ways to meet out death. Kali is a blade art, with the training principles equally applicable to sword, knife, stick and empty hands. It's goal is to dispatch the enemy quickly and to return you home safely. While there is less than lethal sparring the mindset is contra sport. My interest in kendo and fencing faded as I aged and my athleticism waned. My mind was still very sharp and my sport lethality was there, but the joint strain and lack of applicability of skills toward self defense dulled my zeal. The lethality of kali is more aging friendly and the use of an edged weapons lessons the need for maximum power and instead focuses on speed and accuracy. Nevertheless; all combat requires a sense of distance and timing and thus the years I spent in kendo and fencing have given me a combat sense way beyond my years of study. My body has aged considerably but my brain remains sharp and my ability to read an opponents intention is still strong. I consider myself, at best, a lower midlevel kali practitioner, but the blade skills I have learned give me substantial confidence that my array of perfectly legal pocket accessories are likely to keep me safe where ever I go. Takeaway - time spent learning any weapon art is not wasted. If you want to learn practical self defense applications, sport arts need to be set aside for those systems designed for real combat.
I am doing fencing for 8 years now. I think fencing is more for people who like 17th and 18th century swordfighting. I like both medieval as well as 17th and 18th century swordfighting. But i prefer want fencing. Oh. And a fun fact. On my club you can also learn on how to fight with bayonets on rifles.
Contentious statement: Foil is a good basis for learning longsword.
The stances are so different that your foil habits will hardly interfere with longsword at all. (they will interfere with rapier a bit more).
Distance and timing carry over more or less seamlessly.
The right of way system is quite similar to Liechtenauer's Vor and Nach, and to Meyer's provoker, taker and hitter concepts.
Foil will make your point control good enough to actually hit with your thrusts.
It certainly wouldn't hurt. I'd argue that doing foil for two years then doing longsword for two years won't make you as good as simply doing longsword for four years would, but if you can do both at the same time then yeah it's probably beneficial.
heeeey... i like Foil!
for wrapping my food :^)
It's very simple. If thrusting is the main purpose, the French grip makes little sense, regardless of what you may feel is historically a sword and what isn't.
No matter how you swing it (no pardon for that pun),
If you hold a sword raised higher up, like a knight type sword and you cut more than you thrust, then French grip makes sense.
You can see that with sabre fencing, no pistol grips there, since you mainly cut/hit and don't stab with the sabre (even-though it's allowed).
With both epee and foil, the only way to accurately score a point is if you thrust. It's very difficult to reliably score (=actuating that spring in the tip) by way of a swinging motion. You'd have to hit with the tip, and you'd have to make sure the blade is bent so that the angle of incidence of the tip is enough to actuate that spring. It took me a lot of practice to semi reliably be able to do that.
So yeah, regardless of what you personally may feel is and isn't a sword, pistol grip makes perfect sense for epee and foil, in fact I don't see much advantages to using French grip for those weapons. In most cases, it may even be harmful for your wrists.
You don't see many epee and foil fencers use french grip and you don't see many many martial artists thrusting their opponents with their wrists bent down like the French grip. People punch each-other with a fist, sort of in pistol grip.
Guns are usually with pistol grip too, not French grip.
Of course you can use a knife or a blade in a stabbing motion with your wrist bent like that, but if you pretty much only stab and only use sideway motions to deflect, the pistol grip has a lot of advantages.
It is not an insult to the sword. At least, I don't think so.
I don't find any disadvantage to fencing epee with pistol grip, I do with French.
I believe the historical point has more to do with the difference between modern fencing gear and things like smallsword and rapier. If you pick up nearly any historical sword, you are basically holding it by the blade tang because that was how the things had to be constructed to be strong functional weapons. The hilt components slide onto the tang and then are held in place by the pommel which is either screwed or peened in place. The Rapier had fancier hilt components but was still constructed in basically the same manner as a medieval sword. They did have finger rings and such to allow a more angled grip, but the handle itself is typically straight with maybe some palm swell to fit in the hand better. You cannot simply put a modern pistol grip on the end of a rapier blade, the things can be 40+ inches long and weigh as much as a longsword, you need substantial counterbalance from a pommel.
Oh those are all perfectly valid valid points by the look of it. I'm just saying that in the case of fencing, pistol grips make perfect sense (and indeed, you can see that small evolutionary steps were taken towards the pistol grip in some historical swords, like the finger rings you speak of). Regardless of what is and isn't possible to build is a sturdy fashion, the idea to hold a thrust oriented weapon with a pistol grip, is perfectly valid and not silly, otherwise no epee fencer would use them and I frankly don't remember seeing any adult epee fencers at my club who didn't use a pistol grip, even though we were all taught on French grip, and new students remain to be taught on French grip and not on pistol grip. Pretty much EVERYONE transitions to some sort of pistol grip at some point because it just makes more sense when it comes to holding, handling and fighting with the epee and foil.
And while I understand that fencing is very removed from battlefield sword fighting, (ironically, most traditional martial arts are), pretending like the pistol grip is some sort of ridiculous modern abomination is just, well, plain wrong.
I can understand that one may find it weird and non-historical, but it does indeed make perfect sense.
Which is why pretty much everyone who sticks with fencing more than a few months, eventually and NATURALLY progresses to a pistol grip. It works for fencing and it works for the types of epee and foil used in fencing.
Had it been physically possible to use something closer to the pistol grip in historical swords, then I'm sure we would've seen them in history.
Here's an interesting little video I found on the subject.
ruclips.net/video/HHmrQNu_wbQ/видео.html
Epee fencing is actually the least like actual dueling. I'll leave saber out of this because I've only fenced epee and foil, but foil is based off of dueling and closer to it than epee by far. Dueling is referring to a duel for honor instead of a sword fight between soldiers on a battlefield. The basic principle foil is built upon is to avoid doing anything that would be considered suicidal in a real duel. The right-of-way was established to model that. If you attack without the right of way, your action would likely end in your death if the weapon were real. Foil target area is the torso because a wound in that area would penetrate a vital organ, and it's important to make sure the first hit is the last. When an opponent gets a simple wound, they go into flight or fight, so in a duel, you had to hit the torso to ensure your own safety. I'll agree with you on the pistol grips because that addition was for the purpose of bettering the sport rather than attributing to historical accuracy.
Mr Metatron. One thing i would like to mention mention is that Italy is one of the nations with the best fencers in the world, so perhaps your teacher is one of those who simply wanted to give her club medals and wins. Because my fencing-trainer is very passionate about the art of the sport, yet I have seen many trainers who can't seem to think about anything else than results. That will always make the experience of training fencing feel miserable.
Despite your best efforts, I was offended by your apparent disgust at foil. I don't do it for sword fighting. I'm not an idiot. I enjoy it as a sport, similar to one who enjoys football or tennis or soccer or whatever.
And you are entitled to be offended. Its your right.Just don't expect anyone to care you are offended, that's not your right.
Your work ethic is amazing. Seriously, I have been inspired by it. Been loving the videos and the schedule!
I think that you should be cautious of critiicising masters or teachers without fully understanding their methodology. Frankly if a person with limited martial arts experience started criticising me or the the tools of my trade, I'd get pretty uncooperative too.
foil is foundation for good epee because epee on its own you can be good but to excel you need to have a foundation in foil typically for fencers because in foil you learn how to parry repost, timing footwork beat attacks, etc all of which are important technical skills needed to defeat your opponent I think
Can you learn fencing using a fence?
Yes
In theory, yes
Lol epee is legit so boring compared to foil. Before the non-combatant rule, they legit would sometimes just stand there. Personally, I would say foil has the potential to be the most fun because you can do a lot of crazy counterattacks. French grips are legit the bane of my existence. How do you even control your point? Pistol grips are just way more comfortable (for the majority of people).
Hello Metatron! How would I go about contacting you personally? I don't mean via telephone or anything necessarily. It's about an Italian class project in University that requires an actual Italian citizen. And other then the people of the local Massolin di Fiori society (which haven't been answering my phone calls sadly), you're the only other Italian that I know, could you help me out? According to my teacher it should be really as simple as a single message. I would like to explain it a bit more in detail in private, but I don't know if RUclips has a PM system. Thank you in advance.
Please contact me on my facebook page "Raffaello Urbani"
I will, thank you very much.
I've sent you a friend request on Facebook since Facebook's message system is kind of complicated, since when you send to non-friends they end up on the "other" message box, and sometimes they don't show up at all.
Metatron , I just sent you friend request on fb , you do not have to reciprocate : is just so I can follow you .. love everything you have to say :D
I fenced for 2 years in college and attending a few tournaments and I would say first an foremost to anyone thinking about trying it out is that you need to understand fencing is a sport, not a martial art. Metatron described foil fencing as a game, and that is exactly right. All of it is just a game, a fun game (in my opinion), but still just a game. No one in actual duel or battle or any combat situation would actual fight they way fencers do unless they were trying to commit suicide. So if you want to learn a martial art or self defense look elsewhere. If you want an alternative to basketball or soccer, give fencing a try.
I really like your videos Metatron, but seriously this one is stupid because of what you said about foil fencing. I practiced foil fencing during three years with my father (who practiced almost since thirty year and did national competions here in France) and it seems you completely missed the point of foil fencing. The priority system of foil fencing is in fact a way to simulate the risk of being killed during the fight. Basically if you hit your opponent when he has the priority you don't have the point, because to obtain the priority he succesfully put himself in a dominant situation. At this point trying to hit him is useless because you are already exposed, at best your going to wound him before being killed and you should try to put yourself in a situation where attacking isn't a 50/50 percent chance to get killed ; so get back the priority. When your doing sport you don't think about all that because your life isn't at risk so the priority system is a way to avoid what happen in sword fencing ; trying to hit your opponent at all cost, because it's not a problem if he hit you as long as you hit him first.
Exactly. None of these HEMA guys know that. With all the equipment, nobody has any reason to avoid attacks or parry. With right of way, people have a reason to defend themselves and then attack. HEMA users have all of that protective equipment and no compelling reason to defend from double hits like in epee.
"HEMA has no compelling reason to defend from double hits" LOL
Leandro Gabriel Watch out for misquoting people. You can't use quotes like that unless I said exactly that. And yes, they don't. With a double hit, what happens? Both get a point? You have less reason to avoid or block an attack if you can just score a second hit after they hit you.
Bryan Wheelock you never want to take any hits, armor or not, the armor is never an excuse for lack of guard but a safeguard against holes in your defense, and even then it's never encouraged to allow an enemy to get past your defense, clearly you've never experienced hema before, but regardless I hate most of these anyways as I prefer full contact, simulate real battles and the life or death mindset you get from them, the community. I'm uses authentic armor and proper weapons recreated in a heavy dense foam, while having no cutting potential they have all the weight and impact of a real weapon, if you're not in armor, you'll bruise hard.
Solignox , His commentary on foil fencing was born purely from ignorance and likely an uninformed bias. Foil fencing is the closest thing to actual deadly weapons combat that exists, unlike the "cutting sword" sports.
Hi the Metatron. First I'd like to say i really enjoy your videos, they are fascinating!
About the pistol hilt, I didn't really understand why you hate them so much and prefer the french one... I have some experience in fencing (mainly in saber but also a little bit in foils) and i have found the pistol hilt much better in terms of maneuver and control of the blade. This grip is meant to be used in an Olympic fencing duels which are different than hema duel, and therefore require other things from the weapon.
For me, it depends on how much experience they've had in either. Someone with a few months of Kendo is much easier to train than someone with a few months of foil, but also someone with YEARS of Kendo will be harder to train than someone with years of foil. In the end though the difference is small.
My favorite thing about taking on either group is watching their faces when I tell them they will never have to do that stupid duck walk ever again. I mean I guess we're screwed if Santa's elves attack, but that's a risk I'm willing to take. (Yes I know it builds leg strength, but there are so many other ways of doing that.)
If you think footwork is dumb and historically inaccurate, you probably are a weeb, or just a shitty longsword fencer who forgets other weapons existed.
@@jarrarwinks8470 Where did I say footwork is dumb?
As a disabled fencer (played in both in able bodied standing fencing and more recently Wheelchair category B), who started on foil, pistol/orthopaedic grips have a place for us. Moved onto Sabre pretty quickly though.
Metatron does not seem to understand the advantages of learning fencing with a pistol grip as a beginner. Had he been just a little bit wiser he would have listened to his instructor and after a while would would have been able to make a more informed decision rather than pretend he knew what was better for him from the outset. When he knew a bit more about fencing *then* he might have decided to use a french grip (there are a number of valid reasons why its just detrimental for a beginner to start with one). Just because something is historical, it does not make for the best initial learning method.
Yeah. He's a LARPer not an athlete.
The existence of the pistol grip shows the priority of fencing, sport. it is likely that he realized that it may be so sport oriented that it didn't provide the insight into swordplay he wanted and that his time was better spent elsewhere. In HEMA we talk all the time about what artifacts in the practice come about as a result of rules, equipment, and sparring partners. This practice helps us find ways to minimize these factors and get as close to the roots of the culture as possible. Metatron has no interest in fencing because he has little interest in sport as far as i can tell.
Great comment and analysis but it took me 3 tries to realize you weren't calling him "sport" as in "old sport" lol@@lowfatlatte0
For me, the thing that killed my enthusiasm more than anything else was the over-engineered point-scoring mechanism (all the beginners had to start with foil). I could have gotten over only counting torso hits, but having a mechanism that constantly stopped the bout with any mishit and that could easily get knocked out of alignment by mishits meant the entire sport had essentially been changed to fit this annoying little buzzer, when it was only supposed to be a tool to make refereeing easier.
Also I was confused by the pistol grip at first, then I took a HEMA class in Spanish rapier and it started to make sense, because the grip we were taught (index on ricasso, middle-finger through loop, fourth and little fingers on handle) puts the hand in a very similar position to a pistol grip.
A video shortly after 6. How early do you get up on weekdays?
Ho fatto 3 anni e mezzo di scherma e devo dire che mi è stata utilissima per imparare la posizione dei piedi per dare meno bersagli all'avversario cosa che sto utilizzando moltissimo nell'aikido e che mi sta permettendo di imparare sin da subito le tecniche senza dover usare molto tempo sui Hanmi, Kamae (soprattutto nell'utilizzo del bokken e del jo) e negli ashi-sabaki, credo che anche nella Hema possa essere utile il "footwork" (che bello quando conosci i concetti nell'inglese e li dimentichi in italiano).
Per quanto riguarda invece il discorso del tempo rallentato nell'eseguire le tecniche nella Hema credo dipenda che all'inzio debba imparare ogni movimento correttamente e poi puoi svolgere le stesse tecniche alla massima velocità, come mi viene in quando praticavo scherma e le cavazioni le ho imparate al rallentatore, dopo un paio di mesi le facevo velocissimo, o come adesso nell'aikido che facevo l'Ikkyo molto lentamente ed ora inizio a farlo in maniera pulita e rapida, credo sia solo una questione di imparare bene all'inzio in modo corretto e poi di diventano automatismi, inoltre considerando che nella Hema (giustamente) non ci si uccide vicendevolmente, soprattutto agli inizi, per evitare impicci si procede più lentamente.
Seriously? There isn't a club by you? I mean I live in the middle of nowhere and I found a club I can get to often enough. Granted it's a 2 and a half hour drive but it's worth it.
i live in a populated western city , cant find one unless i want to drive for 4 hours + .
There's a lot of boat traffic from sicily to the southern part of Calabria and so the rest of italy, but yes, not that comfortable thing to do many times a week. Also, not every one has the time to drive many times a week for several hours.
I see a lot of people in the comments here defending fencing by saying that it is a sport and not meant to simulate real swordfights. The issue with that line of thought is that it did descend from real sword fights and is the activity that most people thinking of when they think sword fighting. Every little boy who has picked up a stick and pretended that it is a sword gets told to do fencing, only so be disappointed. It is an overall disservice to sword wielding martial arts around the world, which would be much more popular if fencing isn't what it is today. I know descendents can't always be the same as their ancestors, but this is just a case of a chicken descending from the dinosaurs
Right but olympic archery descended from using a bow as a weapon. Velodrome descended from using bicycles for transport. Same for dressage and skiing.
Your argument that sports had origin X and so shouldn't merge into Y is a little nonsensical - in the nicest possible way, why should fencers care about what little boys think? Fencing is a professional sport and if the layman doesn't understand how it works, that isn't an argument to suggest it *should be* what the layman imagines it to be.
@@alextowers3564 You are mischaracterizing what I was saying here. I am not saying that that fencing can't exist as a descendent of dueling. I am making a specific, narrow argument that the current position that Olympic styles hold as "THE sword fighting sports" does a disservice towards the popularity of all sword-based activities due to people feeling like they have been lied to. It is fine if you don't care about the popularity of what you do, but most people do. We can disagree on whether popularity should be a goal, but you can't deny the impact. I have met so many people who said "I tried some Olympic fencing but it just isn't what I thought it would be" and I am certain that anyone in HEMA, Olympic fencing, or Kendo has met many such people.
@tiexiaowang7939 But the Olympics doesn't call it "The swordfighting sport". Olympic fencers don't call it swordfighting or call foils/sabres/èpèes "swords". They'll be the first to tell you it isn't swordfighting, it's a sport that evolved from swordfighting in the same way that dressage evolved from horse riding to get from A to B.
This is a misconception that comes from *outside* the sport. If HEMA enthusiasts, laymen or little boys expect fencing to be swordfighting due to a lack of understanding what it really is, it isn't the olympic fencers' problem when they're disappointed. It's not like they ever claimed it was.
How can people feel lied to if that lie was actually just misconceptions due to their own ignorance?
I did some fencing and found it so funny when friends would want to spar. One, in particular, would swing so wide and it was just so easy to dart in on a thrust and dart back and just keep hitting him and not ever being anywhere to get struck. This guy thought he knew sword fighting but he was all talk and it was fun to know a little and just put him in his place.
People who watch movies and swing a stick in their backyard afterwards never realize how much they telegraph all their moves
I've got a good HEMA teacher, he has a pretty good sense of humor. It's serious when it needs to be serious, lighthearted when it needs to be lighthearted.
can you do a kali (arnis/escrima/fma) video?
theres a really good one done by funker tactical, search funker tactical kali then search funker tactical escrima
the first one is why filipino martial arts trainin is unrealistic and the second is must watch double stick beastmode and the truth about defanging the snake. id link them but youtube is a bitch about links in comments.
Gurren Gambit search doug marcaida.
bmxriderforlife1234 Magellan didn't say kali is unrealistic back in 1521 during the battle of mactan.
not racist actually, what im saying is watch his video because youll see what good kali looks like versus bad kali, the stuff is great but a lot of places dont teach it properly.
gurren gambit yeah back when people were still practicing it properly go watch the two videos i suggested and youll understand what i mean.
pistol grip gives you the most control for fencing. most fenders/all fencers agree that fencing is more of a sport than actual sword training.
I stopped listening to winged hussars for this video
*THEN THE WINGED METATRON ARRIVED*
InSanic lol
COMING DOWN THE MOUNTAIN SIDE!
I love how it's become a meme
Darth Guilder ...you went back to listening to it, right?
I am a huge foil fan. it is the essential skill. control, timing, temp, speed, and etiquette of the blade. but, true not combat. but if you know how to control distance with a foil, you find other arts easier and have more fun with it. it sound like you went to a great school, but they didn't know how to let their students have a wee bit of fun. our clubs were never competition focused, we knew none of us were going to the Olympics. we just loved fencing and beers after.
Wait a sec, you're Sicilian? Please make a video about it! The impression foreigners have of Sicilians is almost fantastical. Stuff like honor culture, hotheadedness, mafia-stuff.
Saber was my favorite but I always found Olympic fencing limiting. After classes we would screw around, sometimes doing fencing in the round, sometimes mixing weapons or being silly like using two weapons.
I liked saber because it seemed more natural for me. People stopped challenging me though because I would stab with the saber. Totally legitimate move, just hurts a lot and the other saber fencers would get frustrated because I wasn't making cuts like they expected someone with a saber to do.
Funny thing is put a foil or an epee in my hand and I was terrible. Basically, Olympic fencing has too many rules, saber was the most flexible and allowed me to make the most of the weapon within the ridiculous confines of those rules.
Epee's rules are literally anything but the floor or wall counts.
Do agree that using the tip of the sabre is a nice way to score a touch. Especially if used from a lunge into a remise.
@@dudeofvalor9294 you don't attack with point in sabre except for point-in-line. you just don't
@@christianalbertjahns2577 Why wouldn't you? If your opponent is good at avoiding your cut maybe an attack with the point can score you a touch?
Also using it as a remise after an initial attack has failed might also score you another touch? I get in Sabre it is used rarely but is not something that should be avoided (imho).
@@dudeofvalor9294 simply because every touch you deliver with thrust can be delivered with cut, except point-in-line
@@christianalbertjahns2577 You never had it were an opponent has avoided your attack because you used the edge to land the hit?
I get using the point is not generally needed but surely you don't ignore the use of the point entirely when attacking?
The mindset is different. A sword fight is to kill someone while a sport is to collect points.
This was 6 yrs. ago. What do you think now?
You can't compare Fencing/Kendo/Medieval with a real life situation and say that Medieval has advantage over the others. Cos you don't get out in the streets and stab people. You might only do that in video games.
Thats as false as saying that an MMA fighter does not know how to fight because he only does it in the ring....come on man, the diference betwen fencing/kendo and HEMA is that fencing and kendo are sports, they have a set of rules that both restrict you and give you a core mindset and approach to the encounter. HEMA( historical European martial arts) is a martial art, a fighting sistem, its designed to provide options for any possibility you might encounter, be it cutting, thrusting, grappling, ground fighting, etc. Not only that but HEMA competitions try to be as less restrictive as safely possible, while at the same time trying to uphold the value of self preservation first and foremost when you fight.
To put it simply, fencing and kendo both strive to be a sport, entertaining, challenging, and fast paced. HEMA on the other had strives to be a martial art, an effective simulation on how to use a real sword in a real life or death situation and survive.....of course it has to make compromises, nobody is saying it perfectly represents every aspect of a real duel to the death, but it is the current closest representation, and it's in a constant effort to make itself closer and closer to reality.
umm a pistol grip sabre? makes no sense? I think you're confusing epee with sabre?
Im sure the fencing instructor was happy having an ''expert'' like you in the course telling him whats proper fencing. And refusing to fence with a pistol crip? If you want play with swords thats fine but you should have a bit more respect to your teacher in the course. Sicilians took home three olympic medals in the RIO olympic games, so I think they know what they are doing down there.
The people who care are those that enjoy it, and the nations that have won medals because of it. You call it a silly game which is your opinion. Still if a silly game gets people active with both their body and mind, then that is a good thing no?
The great thing with fencing is that there is a lot an amateur or late comer to the sport can do.
She wasted her energy and attention to an ephemeral ... youtuber.
Any olimpic fencer can easily defeat this moron in any sword game he thinks he knows. I did hema and historical fencing for years and recently went to foil, I can tell it is much more practical than any other type of fencing and the level of olimpic champ is unreachable unless you start from very childhood.
so many buzz words, he must be a true (neck-bearded) warrior!
@The Only True Witch-King
Lmao what kind of neckbeard fantasy shit is this?
Like you've ever even seen a blade bigger than a kitchen knife, don't act like you're a badass because you watched some HEMA RUclips videos.
100% agree, I went to a fencing club for a couple of years, I found foil so restrictive, like why am I only allowed to poke them? I really didn't enjoy it and the thing I did to take advantage of the "only the point counts" rule only got me shouted at. I remember enjoying the few times I was allowed to do sabre, found it so liberating and found myself learning more as their was a higher chance of hitting someone by using different ways of moving the blade. I was crap and stopped eventually, as I really didn't enjoy it and found it stressful to only do the moves which grade 1's were taught (I only ever got to a grade 2 XD).
Foil fencing is actually the preeminent sword dueling style. Thinking foil fighting is a joke or just sport exposes ignorance and intellectual laziness. This is not typical for you, so I'm compelled to conclude it's due to irrational bias.
The real problem is that professional instructors in the foil discipline are often not well informed about the topic either…
i think that the critique of realism in fencing is dumb because encounters where,
1. you have a sword
2. your opponent has a sword
3. neither of you is caught off-guard
4. both if you are willing to kill
5. there is no-one to stop you and you are in an open space where you can circle around each other
6. your opponent doesn't just whip out a gun and shoot you
never happen. There is nowadays no need to learn swordfighting to kill. The whole argument is just corny
Epee is combat and makes me feel like a thug...
Sabre is perfect for theatrical fighting and makes me feel like a magnificient bastard.
Foil is art for the sake of art and makes me feel like the fearie king, embodiment of grace and precision.
My focus obviously lies on a different aspect of fencing than yours and I much, much preferred the latter two to just going in and starting to stab, trying to make my light light up first... epee is just kind of brutal, like a Wanderlei Silva led MMA training facility...
Hi.
I enjoy your videos very much and I must say I agree with you on this topic, as, in fact, in most others.
I started learning how to fight and sword fight with my father when I was 3. I am now 38 and I never stopped.
My father's focus was stage fencing but, as a martial artist and a stage director that staged fights, he always looked for ways to study the techniques that would have been used in ancient times.
At the time you didn't have HEMA you had modern fencing, ancient manuals (if you could get a copy of them) and your wits.
He went on to become a modern fencing instructor and we where both among the first people practicing HEMA in an organized fashion in Portugal, when the opportunity for that came alone in about 2008.
All the while I worked with him and from 2004 with Master Eugénio Roque (you can google him). Still our focus was and still is stage fighting; we practiced both modern fencing and HEMA in order to best be able to choreograph (or so we tell ourselves, truth be told we were inspired by the same kind of lore that inspired so many others).
Because I spent all those years practicing fencing and several oriental martial arts, when I finished my bachelor's degree in acting I specialized in stage fight. The last few years I worked hard with the Portuguese Fencing Federation and became a fencing instructor and a maître d'arms for the Academie d'Arms Internationale. All the while keeping in contact with the guys that direct HEMA in my country and attending to some practice sessions (I can't be everywhere at once).
All this to say: Yes, modern fencing is a sport. There are lots of details in the rules (not just the equipment used) that make it different from HEMA. It is great, as you said, in preparing you to fight in HEMA. The mind set is different because in sabre and foil there is the priority rule - not so in epée, though. It personally bums me that épée (wich is the sword) can't score by cutting but... that is just the game. Even HEMA, where you practice the real techniques as a martial art, has rules that make the fights different from what they would be like when it come to combat, because... well, in the old days they got maimed and/or died in combat a lot. :p So, fencing is a combat sport, and HEMA is martial arts (arts not art because there are so many styles and weapons, like you said), but in reality, even though HEMA might be closer to a real combat, both types of fighting are game. It only depends on what kind of game you prefer.
The closest thing to real fight is Battle of Nations... but the injury rates are about 20% and sometimes people die. Even in HEMA long term exposure to hard impacts, despite the protections, can be harmful for one's health.
The way I see it fencing evolved from a way to kill people into a sport and the into art (with artistic fencing/stage fight). Sure this is not absolutely linear, there were always different tips of stage fights and sort of sporting events with swords and stuff, but it is the way I structure it in terms of evolution - from something that kill to something that elevates the living.
Of course artistic fencing (the sword fighting part of stage fighting) is completely different. But I believe that in order to make it more believable you have to master all you can manage to master in fencing so you can later deconstruct it and use it for the narrative you build when choreographing. Its fake on purpose because the purpose is different. But it shouldn't look fake (unless that is required by the director). But that is an all new video... Still, many look for the real thing inspired by stuff they have seen on stage or scree so... hurray for stage fighting and great story telling (even if the fake fighting is not that good). :)
Personally if I feel like fighting (with weapons - unarmed is different, I am also graduated in different eastern martial arts) I go for modern fencing épée, its safer than HEMA (and as an actor and fight choreographer it can be bad to become injured so I don't risk it as mush as when I was younger). For learning real martial techniques and the real feeling of the fight, HEMA (but I practice only for research - and I love it). For fun, work and money artistic fencing and stage fighting (actually may main focus although I spend many hour on the others as preparation for this) .
But thi is just me. :)
Cheers,
Tiago da Cruz
----(----------------
+Metatron I'm going to do a response to this video in my channel. I understand that you speak spanish as well then i'm going to do it in that language because I could explain better my experience. If you think you could not understand me (and if you see this comment) please tell me as soon as you can to do my video in english.
My Spanish is still rather basic so I think English would be mostly appreciated ;)
Very good then friend, I'll do my best.
You know I'm uploading the video right now but I'm feeling afraid of people start saying bad things about me or something and make me look like and idiot for my english or something I said. It's that normal? XD
I imagine an Olympic fencing club where the students all showed up one day, looked at each other, and said, "Were you hoping to learn HEMA, too?" And then the instructor has to change the lessons. :)
So foil is "Playing with toys"? What do you call larping around with medieval weapons? No matter what sport you play with a sword today there won't be any blood or gore, I'm not going to insult your intelligence as you clearly are a very knowledgeable man when it comes to history, something I admire about you. You can either larp and fake fight or play an Olympic sport. Up to you.
It just sounds like you had some misconceptions about fencing. You went to your gym not to learn fencing but to make yourself feel like a medieval Knight. This idea itself makes me cringe. And do you really think people fence to "prepare" for HEMA?
The problem here is that fencing blades aren't thought of as swords within the sport. Call a foil or epee a sword and you'll be chewed out by instructors in a heartbeat. Also, the pistol grip is favored a little more by fencers in general because it gives them a lot more control without a grip that looks like it's made for two hands. Sure, with a French grip you can pommel to get more range from your blade, but I know that I always feels really wonky because there's so much more of a handle to work with when you've only got one hand on the thing.
As far as the point about cutting in fencing, you can't really practice draw cuts or cuts that would have much depth to them. If you think of the forward flick cut that appears in Kendo, saber acts similarly, but with one hand. It's all really restrictive, which means you can't *really* cut, even if you get the motion down.
Epée is sword in French pal
While that may be true, I think his point is that if you were to call it that your instruction would likely chew you out for doing so.
I think you are a small and delicate man, the grip is not that long.
You seem to have pretty nasty instructors.
As an olympic (épée) and HEMA fencer I have to agree with you:
1. Yes, Foil is somehow lacking (that is why most new fancers gravitate to sword and saber)
2. I completly agree on the pistol grip, they are atrocious. I also prefer the french grip.
3. Truth be told: There is actually very few difference between épée an rapier. You do not even have to "unlearn" much, the stances and attack patterns are almost identical and the agressivness necessary for épée is quite helpfull.
The other weaons in HEMA gain from the additional knowledge abour distance, tempo and speed.
If you think about stating to fence (olympic or HEMA) I recommend épée as a stating point.
Nothing wrong with the pistol grip. Everyone uses what they feel is right for them and that is how it should be.
A traditional rapier has just a symmetrical pistol grip.
As for foil lacking, it has not much to do with Hema, it's just what sword/sabre people are bound to say. If you're slow and not that clever, go for sword. Go for sword, that's also what they said to me.
pistol grip is actually genious - ideal for a thrust weapon, it's just an improvement on ricasso-type grips
It'd be interesting to see the introduction of the pistol grip into a HEMA-like environment to see how it fairs against more traditional methods.
As some form of retro science fiction or something.
I like your videos... But it is clear here you do not understand Olympic fencing or its roots. Foil is a killing weapon, originally, designed specifically to be as easy as possible to pierce skin and organs in a duel with specific rules. Epee was born later of a time when death duelling was seen as barbaric, and ot became about first blood. Sabre is a recreation of horse back duelling. Those reason are why you have specific target areas and the "aristocratic" nature of the duel is why there were so many rules. Rapier fencing is a completely different animal, as is medieval sword fencing (like the arming sword).
Giving up on it because you were dissapointed that you didn't get an arming sword? You should have known that going in.
I do hate pistol grips, though.
Saber is actually based on foot duels, not horseback. Even though the target area makes sense for a cavalryman, the lack of well, horses, makes it foot based.
Usually I can go along with what he says and see the value of what he says but on the subject of fencing it seems like he had a fantasy in his head and when the sport was not as he expected it embittered him towards it all in general honestly it should be like everything and if it interests you give it a try dont take what he's saying off of his experience and apply it to you
I'm sick of nerds and idiots expecting fencing to match their wet dreams of castles and knights on horseback. This is the 21st century, not 1350. Almost nobody fences seriously because they like combat or are interested in sword fighting, it's a fucking sport. If you want to go act like knights then dress up in costumes but don't whine because fencing is a sport and doesn't match actual sword fights.
Gotta correct a hasty mistake there, the hitzones for sabre are only arms, torso and head, not the entire body as legs are out - that would be epee. Foil = Only poking, only torso. Epee = Only poking, entire body Sabre = poking and cutting, every zone, except legs.
I see it a bit more ambivalent. I completely understand your reasoning and I agree to an extend, but I think the core thing about fencing in terms of techniques is the speed, I've seen skilled fencers in my life and that one guy was really faster than the eye could see. It's one thing if someone is just fast, it's another if you basically see your sabre "phasing" through the opponents. As for the rules...yeah... it's a game, doesn't have much to do with fighting.
Not entirely sure why you expected to be using medieval arming swords in fencing.. please explain to me how you could have possibly made that error. -_-
That's easily 99% of HEMA guys who trash sport fencing, a bunch of neckbeards wanting to live out their wet dreams of taking the holy land finding a sporterised version of Renaissance dueling swordsmanship.
Metatron, I'm about to celebrate 25 years of fencing this June. And I picked it up just to see what it was like, at a local YMCA. In answer to a few of your points.
1. You joined the wrong club with the wrong coach. She should very much have allowed you to use the French grip.
2. Foil is pretty much a very physical dance. The skill is tempered by the rules of Right Of Way (ROW). ROW was originally developed to keep young noblemen alive in duals. But it its application has been carried to ridiculous extremes, starting in the 1970s. Back in the 90s when I started, there was a time I thought the rule was the guy who pulls his arm "back" first and came running forward was the attacker. Since then it's been cleaned up, a little.
3. You didn't like the sword, aka Epee? I'm going to guess you were hoping it is more like the fencing you saw in the movies with Errol Flynn. Up until the late 70s it was probably a game you could get into, if not love. But since then the game has become far more physical. And the strategy, at least at the Olympic level, was driven by not attacking into the strong points of your opponents' game. A lot of that was driven by a Swede named Johan Harmenberg, who won the 1980 Olympics in Epee. Since then the fencers are simply driven to be faster, to overcome the opponents' technique with superior physical ability.
HEMA practitioners when a modern olympic sport is not a historic life or death battle 🤬🤬🤬😭😭😭(not once did anyone ever suggest that it was)
I'm so fed up of HEMA nerds complaining about a completely separate sport not being the same as one they like just because they assumed it would be
It's like a rugby player going to play American football and then badmouthing the sport as a whole because it isn't the same thing
Fencers might not be sword-fighting but at least they're not annoying and pretentious
The one exception to the tempo example given, is when you're manipulating your opponents body, because unless your opponent knows exactly what you're going to do, he's going to have a hard time reacting to both your actions and his own involuntary actions.
Say someone is picking on you, underestimates you, because you're unarmed and get an attack frontally or from above....you move out of the line of attack and take the wrist moving it slightly, turn your hand around from guarding the attack to grip and pull the opponent out of balance, step alongside, guard against a possible sucker-punch retaliation and punch gut with hand that pulled out of balance and kick while opponent tries to recover balance. Opponent down on the ground and quite hurt.
Still only so much you can do before the opponent reacts, but if you control the reactions until opponent is out of commission.
I hope I've made my point clear.
Olympic fencing is basically a game of tag with long stiff wires. I don't think it should be called "fencing" anymore.
Well you know nothing about Olympic fencing apparently.
He probably didn't pay much attention to the video and means foil.
All Olympic Fencing is wimpy, Sable, Sword and Foil.
Sure it looks pretty, but so does a headless statue in a museum, doesn't mean it's of any use.
It has a use. As entertainment, as a sport, or just as physical exercise. Its not the same use it use to have but the same could be said of most swords. Soldiers dont use swords anymore but that dosent make them useless.
The only difference is that you're hitting people with larger pieces of metal in hema
Don't shit on the foil, man, it feels freaking awesome wielding one and it is scary as hell to have one break in front of your ribcage because you stepped into the attack like a fool.
No offense here, but your expectations were/are moderately cringey. You entered fencing not even knowing what HEMA even was, yet you basically expected to become a knight using a sport.
Matthew Pham ikr
Have you made a video of you actually performing fencing? Can you start up your own Hema club? I'd join.. if I were on the same continent.
You have a very odd accent. It sounds like a mixture between West-mids type English accent and a Eastern European Accent.
Have you lived in Italy all your live or have you moved around a bit?
I would consider it a mix between a southern English accent and a southern Italian accent as I am an Italian who has lived in England for a while (and in Japan but I have no Japanese influence in my English) so you weren't too far off :)
My accent is non-rhotic and in terms of pronunciation of single words it's southern English, but the intonation is were my Italian accent comes back, so this is why you feel it to be odd.
Normally when I go back and visit England my intonation goes back to English, but while living in Italy I am surrounded by Italians so my English does get influenced by that "melody"
It's amazing how accents and pronunciations of a majority influence the people around them.
Thank you for replying!
Tell me if I am wrong. You speak fast as Italian. So your english looks faster than average. As a French Canadian it is the same(even for people from france) we have a dialect that use some contractions. Like when we say: Il y a. We actualy say Ya. So we speak fast.
To me, he sounds like an Italian with very good English, enough to do the proper accent, but sometimes his native accento bleeds through. :)
I love getting a few of my friends together to practice swordfighting with. Do we have instructors? Not really, but we all still enjoy it. We slice and stab at each other, and we block and parry. We focus on how to get around defenses, and how to defend against the new offensive techniques. Of course we are learning slower than if we did have an instructor, but we are still learning how to fight. We have two separate "game modes". One is where a strike to a body part will weaken the opponent in said area, and where a strike that would kill ends the round. The other one is where we just fight until either you or the opponent can't fight anymore. The one who gets tired first loses.
Why did I put this here? Just to put out what my friends and I like to do as a hobby. Is it viable as real combat training? I can't say that it is. Is it a real sport? Maybe not, but it is what we enjoy doing over the two aforementioned alternatives.