Olympic Fencing Is Probably More Realistic Than You Think.
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
- Sword fighting probably isn't what you think it is, nor is fencing.
0:00 Intro
2:37 Physicality
3:54 Footwork, Distance
5:50 Hand-foot Dissociation
7:18 Hitting
9:12 Right of Way
10:40 Psychology
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I know all my sword play from years of sparring and the flexibility of the swords and the point based on electric conductive system it is not at all similar to classic fencing and you can see this because the Spanish fencing tradition still practices with hard blades.
ruclips.net/video/AlZfB6g4-Yg/видео.htmlsi=lh4LNeJaej2UfGjR
Looks like there is an awful lot of parrying and grabbing the sword hand. Whops a lot more like the movies than the sports fencing. Also you can clearly see just how much lateral movement truly matters in terms of getting the proper angle to be at a range where you can hit but they can’t hit you. The Spanish fencing movie you included is actually explaining the importance of lateral attacks in Spanish fencing.
Oh in case you want to see the pre electric linear tradition. ruclips.net/video/2NXYvhO08CI/видео.htmlsi=OqrSy72Dj-7_O8WO
Again an incredible amount of parrying and back and forth.
The quick snappy single shot snaps and thrusts are completely based on the elasticity and electronic registration.
If how realistic it is doesn’t matter than the video doesn’t actually matter?? Like you made the video just to say you don’t actually care if there are logical counter arguments to anything because you love it.
Than just love it than and make a video about how much you love it. I would have happily watched that and would have honestly enjoyed a lot more than feeling compelled to debunk your claims. If you don’t want an argument it is completely valid to just say I love this thing it’s rad I don’t care what anybody says it’s epic! And your honesty and heart would be way more respected than starting an argument and then pretending like the argument shouldn’t matter, it’s a dishonest and manipulative way of getting to a very human honest point. It’s just like someone saying they love karate because it’s awesome or Aikido or snowboarding. It’s the same like if you were like is snowboarding a good way to get around town and you made a much of one sided arguments and then concluded Who cares snowboardings awesome. Like why did you ask me to listen to your arguments if you don’t actually care about your arguments. You do understand that is literally wasting someone’s time. Imagine if your spouse argued about how you didn’t do enough for her or him and than after fourty minutes of you feeling like she’s making one sided arguments against you she was like you know what it doesn’t matter because I love you. Yeah… realistically you wouldn’t be like ok no problem I don’t mind you just made me think about a bunch of aggravation and argument. Just anytime you want to make up a random thing to argue about spend time making up reasons why I am wrong about something and just drop it’s totally cool to just jerk you around right. I think you know this was click bait and you could have just come out and said you think fencing cool regardless of what anybody says and this is why. Instead of pretending til the literal last moment.
So, I trained KoRyu with my best friends in college and we literally sparred with bamboo sticks with zero armor except helmet and gloves. And I can tell you, nobody rushes when real severe pain is a distinct possibility. When a piece of bamboo shatters across your stomach or neck or chest, you don’t even rush in again. That is the main reason even most hema is wrong, because the fear of bodily harm completely and utterly changes your behaviors and makes you exceedingly focused on either dominating an angle or entangling or playing just out of range. It was some of the most fun I ever had because it was so close to the real thing because you were afraid of the sword. Getting stabbed sucked, getting struck sucked and you just didn’t leap at people if it wasn’t your first time. A lot of kids who started at our club would leap forward and get smashed over the head literally shattering the bamboo and if they came back they actually started studying how to properly play angles and range and to slip entanglements. It was some manly stuff and incredibly fun and we did on many occasions get slight slashes over the hand or arms that in no way were counted. The rule was if the person fighting you wasn’t stopped by the pain of the attack unless it was a pull cut across the abdomen or neck etc. it wasn’t significant enough to stop the action. It didn’t happen all that much because most of the time we were hitting really really hard and fast. And that is how I have confidence in my ability to sword fight. I did fight a Chinese fencer who did fight one handed in a rapier type stance and he beat the crude out of me, it was an embarrassing moment at the time because I felt I was the best in the club and the guy just stopped by. But he played by our rules and with our equipment so when I say he beat me I mean it. So I am under no illusion the Japanese sword is superior it’s just what I know. A boss of mine who was an X mma fighter was trying to criticize me and he said, what’s the point you don’t carry a sword around and I said, yes but if you had a bat and I had a bat I know I would win. And that is not something Olympic style fencers can say because the force and weight difference and sheer violence doesn’t translate and that is the main reason why I don’t think you can say that modern fencing is realistic, because I don’t think an Olympic fencer could pick up a metal pole and have confidence where a hema practitioner absolutely would.
That’s my opinion and I think it matters because the martial side of sword fighting if lost is a real lost and I think it absolutely is lost. And the main example for that is the fearless way they charge at eachother, traditional fencers wouldn’t do this because it would still be a serious danger even with padding. The lack of pain and danger changes your subconscious fear of the others weapon. That’s why I think it matters because the martial side is more than sport. Just as boxers often say that they are truly accepting they could die and that affects the spirit of the contestants I think the lack of danger has the opposite effect and invites a lack of seriousness that most sports have. Nobody is throwing in the towel in a basketball match because it’s too much punishment. Martial Arts involve a level of combat and combat is violence. I don’t believe Olympic fencing can be called violent, like Olympic Wrestling or Judo or Boxing can be called violent and that is why it is not realistic. That and the modern fencing I linked to earlier.
@@dorjedriftwood2731 I think you bring some valid points. As you said a lot of people get lost here in this HEMA vs MOF arguments, that are not part of the topic at all. Or how cool MOF is, which is also not part of the argument. And yes i believe that it is the presenter problem. The fact that he made this emotional non-informative video that is more about some inner conflict than sources and things to discuss is reason why it no-one is really talking about the problems.
But i also do not like minimal gear fencing. I started with it mask and gloves only with steel rapiers.... and while it can give you something and people for some reason are inclining to it in HEMA nowadays to include it, i do not think it is really that beneficial. HEMA is violent enough (depends on region, but in Centreal and east Europe it sure is - and France is nice) in competitions, you also need play and easy atmosphere to learn and grow as it is scientifically proven that stress lowers learning. This sort of training stops growth and also introduces wierd habits in some people... it is not worth it in my opinion.
Also some of the historical fencers did just that once the weapon allowed it. ruclips.net/video/bfcpyMdEwzM/видео.html
Having trained primarily Sabre for three years, starting historical fencing was much easier then I expected. Training with more experienced historical fencers I was able to keep the score very close. The principles are the same for both sports, and most of the blade-work translates well
Great video! As a fairly active HEMA competitor who's been doing it a while and did some MOF and fought MOF-based fencers a fair amount. I agree with the physicality it can't be overestimated. The footwork thing is also important. I'd also like to point out the quality of HEMA training is hugely variable. The better clubs don't really have that much trouble dealing with people from an MOF background coming in unless the new fencer has taken the time to really learn HEMA.
A note on the foot-hand disassociation. With heavier weapons you benefit from power generation from the full body. For example, boxing does not use disassociation on most blows because you need the power.
Offline, at long ranges the only use that the offline is effective for tends to be denying launch on an attack, if you have to pivot to face, in that moment you can't launch an attack or if they do they are disadvantaged. That's a common strategy. The other use is as people close so you are at a boxing distance you move out and keep moving.
Biggest thing I'd say though both from a realism and a translation to HEMA pov recognition of safe openings is a big thing. If you fight in an afterblow ruleset a big part of avoiding it comes from knowing which openings you can take and also get out. MOF fencers have a lot of instincts of what is a valid opening that can get them in trouble and quite heavily concussed.
10:55 bro did my grandma dirty
8:24 he did miles dirty 😂
Fencing is directly descended from dueling. My masters master master probably trained someone to fight a real duel. Facts. Thank you for this video!
My actual master, Akos Moldovanyi, presided the last sabre duel. And I'm not that old
That is SO not an argument, it's laughable you would even post that.
“Duelling”hahaha 😂 you’re so funny bro.
Watch early fencing. We have recordings of it. Due to the lack of the electronic scoring, your hit had to be decisive and you needed to ensure you got a more clean hit compared to the modern stuff.
RUclips has a clip of MOF style fencing from the year 1900. It looks like a hema rapier fight.
Source? (noahz)
I take some issue with the examples you used for HEMA. There is a TON of linear styles. But the one you showed for non-linear fencing is literally an entire style developed in spain for the purposes of not leaping straight into someones blade. That style does not focus on the attack nor linear movement for the exact reason of personal safety. This spanish style is entirely about the bind. Something that is very hard to do on an epee or foil because the blades just arent rigid enough.
Then for your example of the linear HEMA fighter. Robert Childs is one of the best historical rapier fencers in the world specifically training that low guard linear lunge style. Its great, but you need to be suuuuuuuuuper careful or you will double. I would know, its the style i train.
The primary issues that a lot of modern HEMA people have with MOF is the doubles, the blade flex, and the lack of Quillons. Its so hard to do a proper displacement and lunge without quillions. You basically have to fully commit to the parry. The blades are so flexy that doing a proper bind is damn near impossible. Since you can kinda just muscle the blade out when retreating (as well as no quillions for locking the blade, especially if you have forward swept ones).
Doubles gets its own paragraph. I really, really dont care if i stabbed you first, if im also bleeding out on the ground. MOF just looks so suicidal to me because of the disregard for doubling. Its a substantial reason HEMA and most historical duels didnt rocket off like in MOF. Personally, i have the physicality to fence at a collegiate level (in regard to speed). But i dont, because if a launch like that. Im gonna eat steel (which i did before i learned to slow down). And even if i got him first, i still lose. So picking your moment to lunge is far more important than out muscling them. Again watch the robert childs clip. He sees the guy moving around, and the moment he steps in range, bam. 1 shot, no wasted movement.
And when you commit to parry and do it perfectly - blade bends around it and scores.
@@konstantin3374The ref is to give the parry repost to the one who properly defended and fluidity of the blade (whip over) is not to be counted. It's in the the book "Modern Fencing" by Navy coach Clovis Deladrier.
@@WaybackFencingClub my issue here is that blade with defined edges and flats would not be fluid when striking with proper edge alignment.
MOF changed a lot when they introduced electric scoring. It became a lot faster but far more detached from its origins. And to me it's just not interesting to watch most sabre tournament matches, even with Right of Way/Row rules (which are not being used as written), because it's kinda what you said. They are suiciding into eachother, and the first one to hit, got the point.
However, there is also plenty to be said about HEMA's obsession with doubles and the afterblow, to the point people use it to salvage lost exchanges as late counter attacks or failed voiding/timed cuts. Even though I consider RoW as being flawed as a rule system, I consider it a lot better than the bs you see in many HEMA sabre tournaments, simply for the fact that it teaches people to defend themselves. There's plenty of cases where people fight with overly heavy sabers (800g-900g) and their strategy for the defense is just using distance traping and timed cuts, rarely parrying, simply because they know they can't enter parry-riposte dialogues with those sabers so they are better off trying to time the opponent and if they fail they are "saved" by the double, rules-wise... In principle, they hide behind the idea that "the attacker was also 'suicidal' so both are to be blamed", which was something RoW fixed.
Also, we already have historical rules to be used for military tournaments "on the ground" (not RoW, since those were for the "salle"). Even if a lot of tournaments are using some variation of it, they forget one important thing about them - jackasses who were doubling out with out of tempo afterblows could be kicked out of the competition for simply being considered bad fencers, which makes a lot more sense than punishing both fencers for the stupidity of one of them.
In both cases, MOF or HEMA, tournaments end up ruining the sport, and I simply couldn't care less about them. That's why I tend to have the historical context always present when I bout, instead of just seeking the point to win a medal. RoW is helpful to judge who should be defending, and the martial context is important to make sure you don't attack without the ability to recover afterwards.
The HEMA thing about doubling is weird though because it's more a problem in HEMA afterblow tournaments than it is in modern Epee. I feel like it's more of a rhetorical device than an actual concern.
Right of way also teaches and was intended to simulate fear of the point.
former olympic fencer and current HEMAist here: I agree with most of things you said. 2 exceptions:
- stepping backwards is not ALWAYS the safest way. in the ruleset of olympic fencing, sure. but if you can hurt the opponent in other ways (kicking, grappling, punching, etc), sidestepping is often better. (also, if the opponent has that option too, he can just chase you until he gets close enough to do so.)
- right of way. I don't like that. while what you said is true, and it prevents defending people from suicidal actions, it rewards the attacker for suicidal actions. its counterpart is the afterblow system, where attacker is punished for being suicidal and the defender is rewarded for it. that system is not perfect either, but I like that idea better.
but the defender is the one explicitly rejecting defending themselves from the threat established first so they can hit the other person, that makes no sense
@@theprinceintheforestsepeee1113 there are a number of scenarios where it DOES make sense.
1. the difference in skill is so great, that the "defender" doesn't even realize he is getting attacked, and from his point of view, he merely attacks, resulting in a double hit.
2. the defender did try to defend, but he was unsuccessful, but the attacker did not inflict a serious wound, and the attack was reckless enough that it allowed an afterblow from the lightly injured defender
3. the goal of the "defender" is not to survive, but to kill the attacker, AND he is aware that his skills are inferior, so he deliberately disregards defending, in order to wound/kill the opponent.
ROW is the result of a martial art transforming into a combat sport. (and I don't mean this in a negative way or as a disrespect, just as a fact.) since you are no longer in a life threatening danger, self preservation gets a smaller focus.
@@szepi79 right of way is 300 years old. Its not a product of modern fencing.
@@theprinceintheforestsepeee1113 I didn't say it is a modern thing. I said, and I quote
"ROW is the result of a martial art transforming into a combat sport."
@@szepi79 but its just not. Not any more than 16th century german longsword being clearly influenced by contemporary tournament rules also has the same effect
It is important to consider the realism of fencing because, as discussed in the video, it is more realistic than many people believe. Fencing's proud legacy, stemming from the art of swordsmanship, distinguishes it from other sports. Unlike many other sports that focus solely on scoring points, fencing offers a unique experience. While most individuals start off enamored with swords as children, many athletically inclined individuals become disillusioned along the way due to the points highlighted in the video. Theatricality and anachronism distort the true effectiveness of fencing which is an age-old practice. Those who misrepresent fencing to our core practitioners do so intentionally, seeking to gain an advantage. To make fencing relevant again, we must leverage its legacy more effectively. Sharing this video is one way to achieve this goal.
Can't just put a blanket statement that it properly represents a long legacy when there's huge differences even within fencing itself.
I'd consider epee and foil to still be valid as "swordsmanship" the way HEMA practitioners define it. Epee and foil players should be proud of the long legacy they represent, I know I am.
It's modern sabre that is an embarrassment to fencing. I make sure that the guys interested in this sport don't stumble onto a sabre bout and think that's what I spent most of my life doing.
Ive just started to get into fencing since it was also this mysterious sport that seems to appeal to the upper class. At least in Texas. I started following your channel to gradually learn more and this is the kind of info I’ve been looking for! Good stuff
Another amazing video from Slicer
Nice one! The main thing missing from any form of sport combat and a duel or war is fear of harm or death. Stake your house on a one-hit epee fight and you'll have something more like a duel. Part of the rationale of the conventions of foil and sabre was to compel respect for the threat posed by an attack or riposte. Epeeists win by their clean hits, which has something like the same effect. Foil has wandered furthest away from the basic concepts of fencing - which is why I gave it up. In sum, a very good video. Thank you.
I'm not so sure about foil being furthest from "real" fencing. It is based on how smallsword was trained at a time when you learned to win fights and not just duels. The valid hit areas are those that are likely to incapacitate an opponent, minus the head that was too dangerous during early training without masks. Getting your blade stuck in the leg of an opponent are likely to get you killed.
Epee comes (via smallsword) from duelling to first blood. Any hit is a win, even if meant you would be killed in a street fight.
None of them isn't inherently more "realistic". You could argue that foil has had a longer time to sportify, as self defence with smallsword was long gone at the time real duels with Epee (de combat) was still a thing.
@@jonasbarka I agree, foil, as fought by the rules as written has its own approach to realism. Foil isn't often fought to those rules though. Re epee, A good hit to the arm would render an opponent helpless at less risk.
I'm a HEMA practitioner who also practices Epee, and I can confirm that a significant issue in HEMA is the lack of athleticism, insufficient footwork, and a general deficiency in basic skills, which translates to any martial arts-like sport.
I fully agree with the importance of lateral movement and sidestepping. Some people in HEMA seem to be delusional about this. Like, bro, what's the fastest possible way to reach the target? It's moving in the shortest possible straight line. You can't deny reality. However, situational sidestepping makes sense, but such footwork is more about setting occasional traps for counterattacks, counter tempos, etc., rather than trying to make it work for direct attacks.
Another thing I strongly agree with is the discussion on flexible blades. Some HEMA practitioners think that sport weapons are like whips with which you can flick around like a madman. This is completely untrue. When I picked up an epee for the first time and tried to perform a flick, I realized how difficult it actually is to do it consistently with proper technique.
I would love to see some of your content within the HEMA context.
Cheers!
I did foil for about a year before i started doing hema, then did both simultaneously for a while and yeah the footwork in my club always gets to me. I’m constantly trying to bring it up to my friends because it’s so important just to know how to simple step without bringing your feet together. I know my own footwork isn’t perfect but I want us to all practice it more.
I'd rather not have top level olympic footwork skills. The amount of time they absolutely lose control of their legs because they are pushing too hard is bonkers. Anklebreak city, population all olympic fencers. And they call that bullrushing "physicality".
Same here. I'm the only one in my club that practises both and I am quickly gaining the upper hand on many of my much more experienced hema mates from my athleticism alone. Some of the sports fencers also try rapier every once in a while, and they don't fare badly at all.
One should not underestimate how transferable the skills are between the two, and how useful they can be in the other discipline.
@xPyrielx I agree with most of it about hema. And yes the shortest way is the straight line…BUT for your opponent too…😉
As they saying goes in my (HEMA) circle: a good MOF background gives you bonuses for your HEMA fencing, the only negative you get is "reputation" :D
Indeed, HEMA is something like an adolescent child of MOF, that tries to find its own identity, and the basic start is a sort of negative definition, "We are not MOF". This gives some valid unique features, but also throws out the baby with the bathwater in a lot of others. Overall, however, I am fairly convinced that (just as most adolescents do, when they grow up), the two will reconcile and coexist, and HEMA would be just as legit a sport as MOF is currently.
Thank you slicer for another amazing video
You don't need to defend modern fencing. It's an internationally standardized sport which hema both does not want and cannot agree on. They both can learn from one another but if someone trashes the sport for being a sport, let them. It changes nothing. Lots of level-headed hema practitioners also play the sport. Both are just variations of tag.
Distance is even very important in a lot of grappling based martial arts bc you usually start on the feet and the first contact and who establishes which grip can matter a lot.
Absolutely, from a HEMA background, having the sport fencing background is absolutely important because as you said, many in our field don't work on footwork and distance that much. Many with a sport fencing background absolutely smear in hema especially: smallsword/rapier & dagger *your clip showed the legendary Robert Childs*, and Sword and Buckler. People going from HEMA will try to get to binds/grapples, but a sport fencer will strike you much faster because beats/disengages and because blade moves faster than body. I saw another vid put it that it makes more sense to come from the sport portion first and then add the extra HEMA stuff after to augment.
Excellent and insightful commentary. Thanks slicer sabre ! :)
Another fantastic video, thank you!
I don't know, I've held a real sword and a fencing saber. There's a massive difference in weight and that lets you get away with things but you wouldn't be able to do with a real sword.
Edit: Also, and probably more importantly, the usefulness of lateral movement should not be underestimated. When avoiding a strike, moving diagonally messes with the geometry of your opponent's attack, effectively increasing the distance between you and them faster than if you retreated in a linear path. It can buy you that extra inch you might need to escape.
One of the best videos ever explaining modern fencing
Fantastic video dude! I always tell people fencing is a sport that trains many of the skills that tend to make good swordsmen (yet isnt a real swordfight), just like boxing trains the skills that tend to make good fighters (yet isn't a real fist fight).
This video was sick, keep it up!
Great video. I trained hema getting close to 20 years and sport fencing for the past 7, weekly privates and club fencing under a traditional coach. Totally changed my approach and made me a better competitor and coach.
Thank you. Great video. I now see this sport in a completely different light.
Great video!
After years of Olympic fencing, the thing that bugs the crap out of me in movies is distance and threat. Movie fights are set up so the actors are safe, which means they do most of their actions out of distance (no real chance to hit). And for drama's sake, they use big actions that take their weapons way off target, which means no real chance to hit. Distance is all wrong, weapons are not threatening target. Good drama. Bad fencing. Footwork is 100% key. It's what gets you in and out of distance. That's how you hit or avoid getting hit. Fencers with awesome footwork are super elegant and smooth. The back-and-forth (linear) nature of Olympic fencing also has to do with the equipment: imagine the reel cords getting tangled! Modern fencing weapons are also wear parts: they are designed to break but also to be minimally expensive to replace. Fancy HEMA weapons look spendy to me. For me as a middle-aged fencer, the fact that you can fence up to seventy plus and that people with lots of body types can fence well is one of the coolest aspects of the sport. From the HEMA bouts I've seen, they have referees, rules about hits, all of our safety equipment. Seems like a game as well. A different game but still a game.
Both sports are people playing with swords, as both lack the real life-or-death terror of an actual duel or battle (for the better, I should add!).
One side just cannot claim that the other is pretend without looking hypocritical.
"After years of Olympic fencing, the thing that bugs the crap out of me in movies is distance and threat."
that is not unique to fencing. pick any topic that you are more proficient than the average layman, you will notice films and tv shows get them wrong all the time. some of these errors are kinda "mandatory", since the movie must be understandable for everyone; some of these are made deliberately to make it watchable (no one is going to see a 15+ hours long movie about a sniper waiting for the right moment); some are made becuase of budget; and some are made out of ignorance. you'll have to learn to let it go and only cringe on the most blatant stuff, otherwise you won't be able to enjoy a lot of movies.
"From the HEMA bouts I've seen, they have referees, rules about hits, all of our safety equipment."
much, much more safety gear :D
"Seems like a game as well. A different game but still a game."
some of it definetally is. however, these are essentially metal bars weighing 1-2 kgs ( 2-4 pounds). you need to have some sort of self control, because no gear is going to protect against a full strength blow.
also, there is a movement where you practice with minimal amount of gear ( = a mask and gloves). you seriously need to "pull your punches" with that, and I can assure, you DO FEEL the danger while doing that. as a middle-aged fencer myself, it is not for me; but I can see why it has an audience.
@@szepi79 Cool! I had no idea there was a "minimal gear" HEMA. I KNOW I don't have enough skill to pull my punches, so I think I'll stick to Olympic fencing. I respect both but I know my own limits!
No weapons “sparring” is realistic, it could be fencing, hema, kendo… they’re way different from an actual fight to the death with real blades, nevertheless they’re cool sports and a lot of fun.
Braindead
I once fought in a hema tournament where I cracked a rib in my first match if the day. I went on to fight three more before the pain was to much and I couldn't hold my sword up anymore.
Great video! Don't forget who you are or where you come from. Fencing only exists as an olympic sport because there was a resurgence of dueling and training for it at the end of the 19th century, which coincides with the beginning of the modern olympic games. Fencing is the most popular European form of a living sword art continually practiced and evolving over centuries. The HEMA community should recognize this and understand that despite all the distance that exists between what is practiced nowadays within the sport and real combat, it is still the OG.
I've been practicing hema for 8 years now and I also gonto competitions. As time goes on I find the two sports more similar than different. It's funny because I had a kinda bad opinion about sportfencing bc how unrealistic it looked. But now ad a femcer myself, I can enjoy a lot more watching sportfencing. Especially that now I actually underatand what is happening.
Also I love how many of the comments are basically "I'm a HEMAist and I fully agree with this video".
i´ve said it already in another one of your videos:If its past midnight and i find myself at a doggy tabern in Renaissance Spain i´d always pick Szilagyi as my drinking partner over any Hema swordsman - no disrespect to them. If we are talking about a knife fight in a dark street I pick Foconi as a buddy over any so called knife master in the interwebs. 😅
Beautifully put and my exact sentiments.
I would not need a drinking partner or a buddy in either cases.
As a relatively new HEMA fencer, I've always respected and loved Olympic fencing for what it is. I hear the arguments back and forth, but I genuinely don't understand why some people get so hung up on comparing styles or individual sports. Kendo, other eastern sword martial arts, Olympic Fencing, and HEMA are so vastly different and unique, and that's why I like them. Don't get me wrong, everyone has a bias to a degree, but I just find it silly to get so "technical" when it's a non-issue. Most of the time, at least.
People just want their sword-based sport to be recognized as the true heir of ancient mastery.
The other movie with the best fencing choreography was Ridley Scott's 1972 film The Duelists.
I think that a lot of comparisons can be made with Olympic taekwondo, you see in the sequences lots of attacks that you'll never in a match, attacks to the eyes, sweeps, kicks in the lower parts and to the knees.
Thank you kindly for the video, it is excellent as always.
As regards the sportification of fencing - without any value judgements whatsoever about if this is "good" or "bad," fencing has as you correctly point out always to some degree been a sport, no matter how far back we take it. However, there comes a key point of divergence relatively recently when people start taking the rules not as intended, but purely as written - which is to say, the unspoken cultural or aesthetic requirements are tossed and people fence to win by the rulebook. This gives us our modern metas. And it's not as if historical fencing is immune to these, we absolutely fence to our rulesets.
At the end of the day, I think "realistic" is not super relevant as a metric. We're doing a sport - even those historical fencers who clutch their pearls about how they're doing a true martial art tm have layers and layers of abstraction from some preconceived "real thing." And currently, historical fencing has a lot more to learn from modern (whether that be in athleticism, sports psychology or approaches to the sport) than vice versa.
7:40
Actually, the epee's weight is surprisingly close to a "epee de duel".
Maybe less surprising when you consider that the epee modality was created by people who wanted it to be closer to the real deal.
That's also why it doesn't use the priority rule and you can touch anywhere on the opponent.
As an epee fencer, I think maintaining some semblance of historical relevancy is important in keeping Olympic fencing alive. Right of way rules and extremely light weapons leads to unrealistic techniques like ‘flicks,’ which (to me, at least) makes the sport less appealing to the next generation. Could using a ~50 gram super flexible ultralight weapons increase the speed, and perhaps even artistry and beauty of the sport? Maybe. But there will be young girls and boys re-inventing single stick fencing and dusack in their backyards, and some of them will inevitably drift away from the Olympic sport towards other disciplines (HEMA, kendo, etc) that do a better job of recreating that exhilaration of footwork and blade play that fencing delivers.
Nope. Fencing should just be fencing. There is no such need to replicate real swords anymore.
@@user-jw6kc6kg2i And if that's what people want to do, that's fine for them, you just need to pick a different name because fencing has historically meant swordsmanship. Like you said, fencing should just be fencing. Olympic electric pointy stick tag should be whatever you want to call it.
@@yankeefan984, or use Olympic fencing to refer to the sport.
Just like Olympic taekwondo is different from what was used in real combat.
The sword choreography in Hook by Steven Spielberg and Starring Robin Williams and Dustin Hoffman and Julia Roberts had the best and most realistic fencing sequences I have seen in decades produced in 1991.
Commentary aside, this is an incredible collection of touches
in HEMA the importance of distance is more based on the type of weapon, but in general distance is king. but some weapons dont care as much about distance becaouse other factors and weapon types
As I reenactor and swordfighter I must say - modern olympic fencing have little to do with realistic fights :D Although it has good historical core - it has little to do with realistic fights and historica - competitors oftenlounge into sucidal moves just to maybe score point (that korean guy is great example - he fondles oponnent with rapier tip yet got multiple strikes into mask - thats no ponit for him if you ask me. so it is very watered down version of european swordfighting. Its still great as sport tho.
Modern fencing strikes me as being like boxing without meaningful consequence. As a spectator sport, it leaves a lot to be desired. It's like the golf of combat sports.
As someone whos started dabbling in hema recently, as well as a bloke who just loves his epee and foil (with my own channel I had completely forgotten to post to), this entire idea of the "lack of realism" has always struck me as pontificating about issues that are either unsolvable, or only exist at first glance. It used to frustrate me when it was handwaved as "modern fencing is just sport", bc while its a justification in itself, its also the case that, simply put, fencing is fencing.
Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. The fundamental truth is that there is no perfect solution to the counter attack / after-blow problem.
It’s an inherent property of fencing that going for a double hit is mechanically easier than actually defending against an attack.
And no ruleset perfectly solves that problem. All of them make fencing unrealistic.
HEMA only maintains its ‘historic aesthetic’ because it doesn’t have a standardized set of rules and because most of its practitioners care more about meeting that aesthetic than actually trying to win.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112there is a ruleset that does account for it. If you get hit with an afterblow, it goes as a loss on both of your score cards. Hit clean or you lose anyway.
Cope
@@Champion_14 I do both modern fencing and hema lol. they are the same
@@theprinceintheforestsepeee1113 you are clearly a member of thr LGBT community because your words are that of a F4660T
Really good video - everyone should want to try fencing after watching this. Fencing is not like a duel, but it's not trying to be, it's a sport. But the fundamentals you've covered, Mental, Physical, Technical and Tactical would translate very well if they dropped fencers into a duel.
I did fencing. My issue was how bendy the foils are.
epee is less bendy. Though I had no issue with foil bendiness as flicking is only required and mainly used on a very high level, amateurs do not flick and even I when faced a high level fencer he/she destroyed me without any flicks
Something that people don't appreciate is that any injury may very well end your career. Even the best fighter will lose an interaction eventually, and if that results in an injury because you're using real weapons you at best need to take time off to recover, and at worst become disable or die. If you're familiar with the graph of a geometric distribution, you know that if you keep taking a gamble repeatedly the probability that you will lose at least once approaches 100% *very* quickly. If risking injury is the only way you can practice, you won't get very far.
The fact that olympic fencing swords are "anti-weapons" means there's no limit to how much an olympic fencer can practice against other fencers.
One of the things I've noticed taking my fencing skillset outside of the fencing world and into HEMA and Bellegarth and other systems, is that these systems that try to be "realistic" or "historically accurate" have to tendency to hamstring themselves. They'll avoid practicing footwork too extensively because it doesn't appear in their books that often, or they wont practice wild flunges or crazy moves because they're "too sporty" or "not historical." As true as that might be, that physicality and that footwork are so incredibly valuable that in my experience olympic fencers have a lot easier of a time adapting to HEMA or other sword-fighting systems than the other way around.
There's kind of a division in HEMA with some clubs being just kind of hobby groups chilling and some being straight up fencing schools aiming to produce competitive swordsmen. Clubs that train people with competitive approach put a lot of emphasis on footwork and will quickly adopt any move that proves it's worth in actual fight.
Also, one of the reasons that olympic fencers have better time adapting to HEMA than other way around is because they start younger, people mostly discover HEMA as adults, some (like me) just begin at the age most professional sports would consider retirement age. Meanwhile olympic fencers can start training at 14, if not earlier.
The thing is at its beginning and at its core, HEMA wasn't meant to be a sport; it was meant to be applied historical research on western martial arts. Competitions help, but weren't the core, and personally I don't really think they should be.
@@alessandronavone6731 at it's beginning and it's core HEMA was a desire to have meaninful sword fighting activity based on something real. It simply wouldn't have existed without the joy of giving someone the taste of historically accurate yet non-lethal blade.
As it grew in popularity and attracted people - eventually it had enough of both hardcore history nerds who can't hold a sword firmly and competitive people who haven't seen a fechtbuch with their two eyes for divide and clashes between historical and competitive aspects to appear.
@@konstantin3374 I think Matt Easton made a video on this subject one or two years ago. I guess you know about him but if not - he's one of the OG founding fathers, literally created the term and original methods. My impression derives from what I remember from that video of his. Might remember wrong; in any case, if you'd like to check it out, I'd recommend it, it was one of his most interesting.
@@alessandronavone6731 as I recall he was into swords, armor and movies featuring sword fights during his childhood, became aware of reenactment and was doing archery for a while. He isn't exactly "founding father", but I'd say he's first generation of practical HEMA with all the competitive scene being formed under his and other 00s clubs influence.
Nice video. MOF probably has the most advanced pedagogy of any sport, with a long history of perfecting that transfer of knowledge. A great sport fencer can easily become a great HEMA fencer, I don't think there's any doubt about it, as it's been done lots. The other way around, not so much, due to the fact that most people start HEMA much later in life, and often without much of an athletic background. TBF, any great athlete can go into HEMA do very well, even if they're not combat sports athletes. I think hockey players would do very well. If you can handle a stick while on ice with knives on your feet while people are trying to body check you, handling a longsword with good footing should be fairly simple in contrast. Absolutely most HEMA clubs do not spend enough time on footwork or conditioning. I do have one counterpoint: While the hand-foot dissociation may be beneficial for some disciplines, for older styles it might be detrimental and need to be de-trained a bit. With weapons like longsword, the connection between the fencer's core and the weapon is very important and can't be stressed enough. And sport fencers are not typically used to the grappling part of swordfighting, and would need to be brought up to speed. Will all that TLDR I just wrote, remember that HEMA is more than just swords. There's grappling, dagger, staff, spear, pugilism, poleaxe, and so on.
your videos r so good lmao pls continue updating and feed us starving sabre fencers (everyone fences foil)
What is the movie clip with The star wars guy ? Qui gon jin
Honestly the more I fence the more I think having RoW is more realistic than not having one, at least in a military context.
Sure if you’re just both trying to poke people to get a drop of blood than a tie is better than losing. But I’m NOT going to give up on defending/dodging to throw a counter attack when there’s a Cavalry Sabre coming at my neck at full gallop.
It’s the fact that modern fencing weapons have got way too light and agile(for safety reason which I understand) that caused the sport to become “weird”. But even so most moves are still the same and I 100% believe any decent sport fencer can transition to similar single handed swords with ease.
But on that note, I kinda want to try a Sabre rule that makes the first 0.1 sec of contact white light. This might stop slapping attacks and force fencers to cut “properly”.
I'm a bit confused on how you think RoW helps here. HEMA largely considers doubles as you both fucked up and neither gets points (and in a good bit of cases you will be disqualified from the match if you double too much), not to "give up on defending/dodging".
@@connormccluskey9103 the problem is that in a sports context without the threat of injury, reactively doubling is always strategically more reliable than defending because counter attacking into a committed attack is much much easier than parrying.
Every weapons sport has to solve that problem in some way, either mechanically through something like Olympic Epee’s lockout time or through refereeing through something like Right of Way.
If the rules don’t solve the counter attacking problem, then fencing totally breaks down at a competitive level.
The problem is hidden in many HEMA tournaments because there aren’t standard rules for people to train for and because HEMA doesn’t have a serious professionally trained competitive community yet.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 The absolutely miniscule lockout times in epee and such don't help much with "realism" then. Me stabbing you and you stabbing me .2 seconds later doesnt mean I won in reality. We both were stabbed. HEMA does effectively have a lockout time, it just isn't written down as any specific number and usually ends up being within a second which just means you should just be covering your attacks.
@@connormccluskey9103My main issue is exactly the “double” system present in both HEMA and Epee, even with the .04 second lockout time, counter attacking remains one of the most effective options in epee. There needs to be a penalty for people hurling themselves into a sword reactively, simple as that. Practicing “we both fucked up” solves the attacking part but not really the defending part.
And when I say RoW I don’t mean how it’s called in matches currently, but the concept itself. For it to be realistic it would probably have to be based on purely sword actions rather than those fancy hippy hoppy stabby flicky stuff we do in foil
8:16
And also about how flexible are real rapiers and "epee de duel".
Used to do sport but transitioned to classical which is separate from historical based on 16th century dueling practices. Mostly, I agree with all of your points and have seen sport fencers do fairly well while transitioning to classical. Though a lot of the times their attacks are insufficient (not enough force to cause penetration or no upward or downward cutting motion) or plaque (probably wrong spelling but after the attack is completed, repositioning the blade so it touches the individual). Side stepping a thrust or "dodging" is also not a very viable practice in traditional fencing nor at least in my teaching is encouraged. if you move out of distance when someone is attacking you, you have no way to parry and riposte which is by far the strongest defensive/offensive action you can take. By moving away from someone, you basically set the situation back to neutral as when you approach, they have more than enough time to recompose their guard and respond to whatever you do. Certainly though distance is incredibly important and this is practiced in sport fencing.This is also why styles that use a circle, such as spanish sabre, are so fundamentally different movement wise to more line based movement seen in sport styles. It is correct to say however that when these styles collide that the person that whose movement is in a line simply needs to pivot in order to reestablish the line. In terms of parrying, it is important to realize that not only is it a biomechanical advantage but a structural advantage. The cutting edge of a blade is the strongest part of the blade and by aligning it with the top 3rd of your opponents attacking action, you gain significant leverage over their blade and any future action they want to do. Right of way, while interesting in terms of teaching aggressive philosophy is nonsensical in term of real life. If two people stab each other, they stab each other. Overall though, sport fencing is a sport while classical/historical approaches the subject matter as a martial art. Classical/historical is practicing for defending yourself against death while dealing it.
Classical is great for those a bit less athletic than MOF. Hema is great for those book collectors. MOF is great for arguing against a mean man in a suite and tie.
The fencing duel in Wednesday is so slow, I can’t even-
Olympic fencing, i can primarily speak for sabre, gives you skills. Techniques are secondary.
Its Karate with an one meter stick. I can time my footwork and can judge the distance on a higher level than most others in many sports and fighting style.
skill are real the problem are rules and mindset. In thrust HEMA want to pierce the target and not get thrust back to score, in MOF you just want to press button or touch with your blade half a sec faster than your opponent
I absolutely agree with many of the points in this video. But i would like to add something. I am one of the people that started in Sport Fencing and then moved into historical fencing. They are almost entirely different disciplines. One of the notes you made about sport fencers finding success in historical fencing is accurate, but your reasoning is a little off-target. Historical fencers absolutely focus a great deal on footwork and measure. I don't think that's why they find success.
There's HEMA and there's HEMA. Amount of attention people pay to footwork and training in general differs greatly between clubs.
If for whatever reason there will be a boom in HEMA popularity it will inevitably split into competitive sport clubs with blades rusting from all the sweat in the air and historical hobby circles more interested in old books than climbing the pedestal.
Yes, together with proper defensive game, footwork, distance and timings are the first thing sport fencers needs to re-learn to have succes in HEMA.
хорош! отличное видео!
Yes, HEMAists actually ignore the importance of footwork.
Yes, indeed "right of way" has more ambiguities than meaning.
Yes, MOF indeed never tried to replicate the sword duels of yesteryear.
And to add my opinion, I believe that we should work to create a community of both Olympic and historical fencers.
As an Épéeist I would say Épée is pretty much accurate outside of the fact that in Épée you can win a duel by touching their foot but you also wont instantly die after receiving a hit that with a real blade would go through your heart
Épée de combat was a first blood duelling weapon. A touch to the foot would draw first blood, a blade through the heart would have been legally complicated.
These days I do kendo, I used to train sabre and foil. These things are obviously not combat simulations, but they are training methods handed down by actual historical fencing masters.
The historical aesthetic fencing community could benefit from understanding situations where winning is the only thing that matters.
I am also so very sick of hearing about "the battlefield", no one stopped to fence on battlefields.
❤🔥
As someone who spends way too much time with both fencing (modern and historical): lots to say.
The modern sport is a game and like many others, it’s important to them. It doesn’t align with the popular notion of fencing being the art of sword play which imo leads to most of this.
Beyond this when it comes to martial LARP, epee was the original to do this. ROW is a useful pedagogical tool but since the 1800s this conversation on real sword fights has been happening. Epee is the 18th century response.
Past that, as far as psychology goes nothing really simulates a duel. Aldo Nadi has great writings about this and despite being an Olympic champion at the time we see his form go out the window in the video and that he felt dueling was different. He also won and managed not to kill his opponent (his goal). Kind of a fun little historical anecdote.
One fundamental problem fencing means origami the art of swordsmanship but is no longer swordsmanship its like caling nerf marksmenship
That part at 1:16 caught me off guard
Sanguk at 5:38.....holy crap!
Not a bad video on Fencing- I'm shocked. [ >30 Yr Fencer/Coach ]
There still is fencing with sharp weapons in some student fraternities in Germany and Austria but I don't know the ruleset. It's definitely not to the death or about injuring someone, although getting a cut from it used to be somewhat of a status symbol. Obviously nowadays all of these people are at least extreme conservative but this stuff also attracts a lot of quasi-nazis. And in austria, these fraterneties are incredibly influential in politics.
10:56 when i tell you my jaw dropped😮
Only one problem, absense of abzug. what i wanted to say? you don't have to withdraw safely after hit your opponent.
If there rules wasn't like this it could be more realistic.
If I fenced to this ruleset Id simply never let my opponent with draw until they run out of the field of play and are scored against
@@theprinceintheforestsepeee1113 But there is a time for it.
In historical fencing in some rules you have one afterblow, others you have 1 second to retrieve the hit, but the thing is, we are trying to simulate that you are trying to leave the fighting distance alive.
@@Canal_Marte you shouldnt be able to not hit ur opponent in 1 second where u have no incentive to avoid being hot back. 1 tempo is ok, but thats basically foil time anyway, and foil absolutely teaches how to achieve that through the time and spatial concepts you need to learn to counterattack successfully in it
3:26 holy shit that was gorgeous
I don't get it, looks like guy on the right has hit guy on the left, yet left one is celebrating?
@@konstantin3374 looks like it but nah, the guy on the right's light doesnt come on and he's within the lockout time so if he it it wouldve. Fencer on left's light does come on
I've seen a video from English Martial Arts where he says that the "historical martial art" guys wanted their skills to be practical and as close to the real duel of the past. Thing was that the HEMA trained fencers and boxers would always get their assess kicked by people trained in less time in their modern "sport" counterparts. It's just like traditional MA vs combat sport debates: one side claims they practice for the streets, train realistically, but you always see them losing to combat sport guys both in competition and in the streets lol. Modern fencing has a much superior form of training and it's athletes have better fitness. So what it follows "unrealistic rules"? Give these guys a real blade and some adjustments, and they would be killers!
Have considered trying your hand at HEMA for content? It sounds like you might live in England, in which case you could jump in a car and fight Matt Easton if you so desired.
Maybe it's "just" a sport.
But skill is skill, and the ability to put your point where you want it, every time, faster than most people's eyes can see...
Yeah, if it were sharp these guys would go 100:0 against anyone who isn't similarly trained.
As someone who’s done both Olympic Fencing and HEMA, HEMA only looks more ‘realistic’ because most practitioners generally don’t prioritize winning. i.e. there are no dedicated competitive training facilities and no standardized competitive rules.
Most of the HEMA community cares more about making their fencing look historic, rather than making it effective.
Fundamentally. because counter attacking / after blows are mechanically easier than defending, any competitive fencing discipline where the swords aren’t lethal will have a lot of double hits, because they’re a great strategy.
HEMA has not and cannot solve that problem, and if it developed a dedicated competitive community with a standardized set of rules, the historic aesthetic would break down entirely.
Blatantly false. Fencing in general has a lot of double hits, even with sharps. Read the coroners reports and the accounts of actual duels and most of the times both parties died. We are at least TRYING to survive our simulated duels instead of embracing the attempt of making our opponent bleed at all cost.
@@Nala15-Artist what’s your point?
Of course there are lots of double hits in a ‘historic’ context, because as I said it is an inherent property of swordplay that counter attacks are easier than parries, even with sharp weapons.
The problem is that without the threat of injury, in a competitive context defending with doubles is always a better strategy than trying to parry the majority of attacks, so competitors who are genuinely training to win will not defend in a ‘historically correct’ way because it’s a losing strategy.
Unless the rules make counter attacks and after blows lose, but no rules can do that without making ignoring counter attacks a winning strategy, which also ruins the historic aesthetic.
HEMA only looks the way it does because it doesn’t have a standardized set of rules and because the vast majority of schools and practitioners train to look historical, not to win.
(The fact that you’re saying that you’re treating a match like it’s a lethal duel with sharp weapons instead of prioritizing victory illustrates my point entirely. Those motivations are fundamentally at odds.)
@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112
First of all, the historicity is NOT a mere aesthetic for us, it is fundamental to our sport. If it ain't historical, it ain't HEMA, only EMA at most.
Second, you said: "Fundamentally. because counter attacking / after blows are mechanically easier than defending, any competitive fencing discipline where the swords aren’t lethal will have a lot of double hits, because they’re a great strategy." That logically indicates that when swords ARE lethal, double hits happen less, which they don't. That alone shows that your point was invalid.
That aside, after blows and doubles are NOT a great strategy IF the ruleset punishes them, which olympic fencing really doesn't. Our rules almost always DO make after blows and doubles a losing strategy. Counter attacks however, in our context, are very much CORE to the systems we learn (especially in german longsword), so obviously you have no idea what you are talking about and are judging things from their looks, probably why you rail on and on about "aesthetic".
Besides all that, claiming that victory at all cost and historical accuracy are fundamentally at odds is a big claim and would need to be proven first. By you.
Go on. Pick up any HEMA weapon and enter a renowned tournament. Like Socalswords, Swordsquatch, Gesellenfechten, Fechtschule Freiburg or Gdansk tournament, Swordfish, any that have made a name. See how far your "VICTORY AT ALL COST" strategy gets you.
@@Nala15-Artist
1. You illustrated my point for me. As a philosophy, “If it ain’t historical it ain’t HEMA” is an aesthetic. That’s definitionally putting form before function.
2. All 3 Olympic weapons expressly penalize reactive doubling to make it a losing strategy: Epee through tight lockout time and Sabre and Foil through right of way.
3. Reactive doubling is very much a problem in HEMA tournaments. That’s why much of the tournament scene is dominated by former Olympic Fencers turned HEMAists and why many tournament hosts have started experimenting with variations or right of way rules, because they are frustrated that their tournaments are not being won by competitors fencing in a historical fashion.
4. “Your Rules,” are non existent. There is no body or alliance that regulates HEMA tournament rules or school that governs quality referees. That’s the principle reason it has been rejected as a potential Olympic event for the past two Olympic cycles.
But, if you would like to refute what I’ve written then it should be easy for you to direct me to widely adopted single set of HEMA tourney rules that you think solves the reactive doubling problem.
(No such rule set exists because the HEMA community is stumbling into the very same systemic challenges that established sports like foil, kendo, and wushu have been refining for decades, but it’s very cool to follow a proto-sport in the making, participating in a community that’s taking its first early steps towards turning an undisciplined hobby into a truly competitive sport.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112
1. Dude, it's historical European martial arts. Take the history part out of it, and the whole exercise becomes European martial arts at best. We are interested in history, not modernity. That's not an aesthetic, it's core to our art. And if you wanna talk form before function, look at olympic fencing first.
2. And yet, more than half of the supposedly top level bouts this video alone shows are doubles. Olympic fencing is not penalizing doubles, it is simply not awarding points for doubles, that is a huge difference. And experimenting is fine, though there are a ton of clubs going down the path of penalizing doubles in a different way instead of just "you may ignore that strike that totally would have killed you if this was a real duel", which is what right of way basically has become.
3. You got any proof for that? Well hey, who knew. Blomquist was a competitive ice-skater before he did HEMA. I think this has less to do with olympic fencing's validity and more with the character of people who are in it to win competitions and nothing else AND have the time and money to do so, and likely already have been developed athletes before they even hit puberty AND are probably not against using steroids.
4. If our rules are so non-existent, why don't you join a HEMA tournament and ignore all the rules? See what happens.
I don't have to refute anything because you are making claims with no proof AND are trying to set the goalposts (probably just so you can move them). You yet have to prove how olympic fencing is solving the doubling problem (evidence? Again, look at the video above, and no, not counting hits because one fencer struck 0.25 secs before the other hit him back is NOT solving the problem, it's IGNORING it).
And who are you to say that HEMA has to become a competitive sport with an international ruling body and millions of dollars behind it? Maybe we HEMA practitioners don't want to become a toxic, abusive cesspit of bribes, corruption, brand deals, politics and steroids?
Thank you for making this, I really appreciate how articulately you put your points, and only partially because because they're arguments I've been making with HEMA.....
I really do think that modern fencers oversell how much their fencing is purely a sport removed from violence of any kind, though I also understand why you would since it means you don't have to deal with the worst people on the internet. But if you compare sword fighting to unarmed fighting, fencing has a lot in common with martial arts like boxing of muay thai, which are also the martial arts that actually train someone to fight well, and very little in common with the marital arts that are useless for fighting.
I would point out that the sorts of things sword nerds claim about modern fencing are also things that the same people complain about within HEMA as well, and the arguments are even weaker there.
🤺
Sport fencing has no threat of real harm? I remember fencing sabre in the 1990s: not so!
MOOOORDHAUUU!!!!
Bruce Lee and point karate 60s
speed and strength are skill, athletics is a skill in dnd at least
"...IF you want to be as fit as a professional fencer you have to train as a professional fencer..." Sounds simple, right? ;)
This is the fencing propaganda we need
Hot take: Fencing is the most cope sport out there. People who dont fence think it's lame, but people who actually fence overhype it.
It does indeed look lame. For a naked unbiased eye it just looks like two guys running at each other with something blinky in their hands and then lightbulbs turn on deciding who wins. I mean, not even judges can see what the hell goes on because of how fast it is and how thin weapons are.
The "realism" problem with olympic doesn't stem from the weapons, or the methods, nor even the movement patterns.
It mostly comes from the absolute lack of regard for last tempo position/afterblows. The priority is shifted from "don't get hit lest your juices come out" to "hit first so your light blinks".
in sabre and foil you may hit second and be the only one who gets the point
The obsession HEMA has with "afterblows" and "always stay safe" has driven some of the worst fencing and most clumsily designed rulesets in our hobby.
@@VelmiVelkiZrut Wow, Manciolino and Dall'Agocchie must have been horrible fencers.
@@facundoferrara4828 The Bolognese afterblow shares no DNA with the modern conception of it that we see.
If you want to play according to the Bolo rulesets, with an opportunity "to touch him back and regain your honor," with hands up to the elbow being an off target and the legs being a more valuable target because it is more difficult and artful, we can do that. Most people do not want to do this, they argue for the afterblow as something "more realistic" or "more martial," which is absolutely never was.
In any case, I don't think that it's a matter of any debate that afterblow (in the modern sense) is a failure on its own terms. There is a claim that it makes people more measured and less likely to recklessly attack, as to not draw an afterblow. I think having played with it, and having seen it play out, it is instead under competitive pressures causing *more* mutual strikes - in an effort to annul opponents' points, or following giving the opponent your hands to return a strike to the head in the case of scoring afterblows.
Besides Olympic Fencing there is also Historical fencing or HEMA today practised by a lot of people worlwide...You have some people doing it in your video. Olympic Fencing's curriculum is based on actual swordsmanship of the past. Parries, ripostes, contra attacks, voiding etc everything is there. What makes it "less realistic' is the force you need to make a hit (touching would not work with real swords if you wanted to seriously hurt your opponent) and also the very light weight of the weapons BUT it makes sense since it is a FULL SPORT activity so safety of the athletes is above all. Olympic Fencing is not "unrealistic", it is a competitive Sport. Not a martial art anymore
p.s. the initial intention of ROW was very martial though. If you are attacked you should void or parry which makes perfect sense in real duels too BUT now that athleticism has reached over the top levels is actually who charges faster because even if it gets hit too, he/she might get the opponent in preparation and gets the point. As I said is a compettitive sport so it is designed to be athletic and sporty so as you said in your final conclusion it does not have to be realistic. But it HONESTLY it is totally based on realistic duelling.
i would not like to be poked even by a kitchen knife(not speaking of stiff thrusting epee analog) with the force you need to apply to make epee score light work(7.4 N) to any part of the body.
@@moXnoX1I have. Wearing just a t-shirt. Nothing more than a small bruise. As it should be.
@@KTemplar9 I had bruises through two kevlar shirts and one regular, and it was a bendy epee) And I had a knockout with larp sword to the head which made me think that with almost any hit wit serious still sword would be lethal or at least great stopping power. Please provide nice video proof of sharp steel knife with 7.4 N through t-shirt
@@moXnoX1 You are totally missing the point.I have fenced competitively epee for years with only bruises. I have also fenced competitively in Hema. too and I had broken ribs and broken fingers. So if you want to be the “scientific wise guy”, be one. I will try to record a video to send you the next time I break something. Also since you are so well versed in science tell me how many newtons are necessary in order the light to flash when an olympic saber blade touches an olympic saber electric jacket.
@@KTemplar9 so u had bruises not from knife with such force Q.E.D.. I was not talking about sabre
Forgot to add this: lateral movement can be hugely useful even at distance because it allows you to manipulate how blades have leverage over each other. I think 98% of the time it’s underutilized in HEMA. In the modern context the weapons are light enough that it’s largely irrelevant because your ability to manipulate them and change lines is fast enough that it doesn’t provide much of an advantage in tempo.
Lateral movement is kind of weird. It's easy to perform when out of measure, where it is least useful, but then you get into measure, possibly with a bind - it is hard to do in time and with enough movement to achieve what you thought would be a good result. Despite HEMA blades trying to represent real martial weapons of old times in weight and behavior - in the end these are still very light weapons that are way faster than human body can possibly move out of the way.
I've seen people have more consistent results with vertical play (like dropping lower in their stance or even to the knees, bending down, etc.) than side stepping.
@@konstantin3374depends on the style. Properly controlling your opponents blade during lateral movement is basically what defines Destrezza. Which effectively defined Spanish fencing for a couple decades.
@@konstantin3374 skill issue if you don’t use lateral movements within blade work. They 100% work especially against people seeking to bind.
Hema > olympic style fencing
Remember I took my first HEMA class a few years ago. I had been training and competing in epee for 11 years prior. Class was rapier and dagger, we got walked through the basic footwork and strikes and then was put against some classmates. Beat them all without any real issues, and the coach wanted to have a go against me. Won that one too and decided to stick to olympic 😂😂😂
That's how the cookie crumbles.
Like you pointed out, you had far more experience than any of them.
"I drove karts for 30 years then went to an amateur rally in a Amish community. Won easily. Never picked up a car again!"
But hey, nothing wrong with sticking to MOF. You do you.
@@BernasLL No friend, I had absolutely no experience in their sport whatsoever. As I said it was my first day. You sure know rapier and dagger is a very different thing than epee fencing!
@@BernasLL you can say I was at an advantage among the other trainees, but the coach... Cmon
@@tonyyerbajo6710 Plenty of sports have complementary skills. Like how wrestling martial artists have good bases for the close game in any HEMA weapon and distance management in general. Even coming from basketball I feel this in regards to most similar experienced HEMAists that didn't do a sport that required some level of footwork and hand coordination in their youth.
MOF epee and HEMA rapier are very much complementary in nature, like the video illustrated well, and plenty of great HEMAists come from a MOF background, mainly since that was the only thing that was available to them growing up. That's the case with some guys in my club, like others are reporting in the comment section.
Now, this debate isn't even new to fencing, or any craft, really.
If a new system became suddenly very popular, and students greatly outnumbered the regional teacher availability, less than perfect coaches would find students, sometimes coming from established systems, sometimes lacking some bases. We often read old masters complaining of this. A system isn't just what's in the manuals, it's also the people applying it and teaching it.
In terms of quality, HEMA sure had a rough infancy, and people are still growing as they can, teaching because factually there's no one to fill the shoes in the area and they like doing it. A culture of quality takes time to grow. And plenty of HEMAists aren't even in it for the competition, sparring isn't what everyone's about.
And HEMA proper gear and clubs being widely available is very, very new.
Did you ask the coach how much he had experience?
Very intelligent video Marius. Physical attributes in a confrontation will always play a major factor to the outcome. The fighter with more power, speed, accuracy, timing, flexibility and stamina will, most of the time, win. In this regard, if you were to put a live blade in the hands of a modern fencer, I'd fancy their chances against any historical fencer purely because modern fencers are so highly honed with such speed, reflexes and timing, they are the most athletic and physically well trained swordspersons in history.
You're referring to notable internationally recognized fencers with professional careers, not some average local fencing class Joe though.
That is indeed true. Thank you for pointing that out.
It's like a game of tag using over sized radio antennas and you get to dress up like a skinny astronaut.
I really think that other combat sports get too much credit because we ignore context.
Boxing is valid, but throughout history, teaching soldiers to grab weapons, work in a group, and use tactics is much more important.
All weapon forms are pretty worthless in today's society, but so are empty handed forms. We just don't live in a society where fights happen unless you go looking for them.
Fencing is an abstraction, just like all these other combat sports are.
Literal million dollar sport with people dedicating their lives to nothing but IT: Oh look, that other martial art is so bad at being a martial art, why are people not choosing us?
That other martial art: Uh, we have lives and want to NOT be cripples by the age of 40?
Seriously, compare your average olympic fencer with the average HEMA fencer and you will not have much of a difference in anything. Of course the top level olympic fencers are better than average HEMA clubs, they want to LIVE off of that skill. And olympic fencers of course keep comparing top level olympic fencers with average, small town clubs because it is literally the only argument they can find to keep their sport alive. Try comparing top level HEMA fencers with top level olympic athletes sometime, like to like, I dare you call our sport "lacking in physicality." And that WITHOUT millions in sponsor money.
FYI Top level HEMA is nowhere near top level of olympic fencers.
There cannot be that much money in FIE fencing, it's not a spectator sport.
Been historically fencing for 8 years. You’re pretty wrong about lateral movements. Lateral movement is incredibly effective in historical fencing.
They are effective in the split second of an action itself which can still be done in Olympic fencing. For the most part it’s pretty simple to rotate to correct for any rotation done by the opposing fencer.
Stop being delusional. Lateral movement is only occasional thing which can be done to give yourself an opportunity to do something. Effectivness is the same like in any other martial ar. Lateral movement becomes most relevant when distance is super close. Otherwise you can not reach your target going sideways instead of straight line.
@@xPyrielx the ideal lateral movement is both forward and sideways big purely sideways.
Would you say it's much more relevant to heavier weapons? I'm a sport fencer, but I dabble in rapier. It feels like way more of a factor when I'm doing the latter. Our rapiers are nearly 4x the weight of our foils, and weapon speed is consequently slower. There is more time for lateral movement, and it feels like the angles and leverages to be gained are more important. I haven't tried smallsword, but I'd imagine it might drift closer to foil in practice, despite lateral movement being featured fairly prominently in the treatises we have. (I'd say in some sport fencing treatises, the inquartata is featured more prominently than it's actually used in practice too.)
@@tiltskillet7085 I absolutely think that’s a major part of it. I practice early english broadsword which is heavily reliant upon the traverse. The early english broadsword is a much heavier weapon that later period broadsword or saber, which is far more linear.
As much as i appreciate you channel, since i practiced olympic fencing for several years, i cannot avoid to feel hurt by your total disregard of HEMA fencing. HEMA fencing is fencing, as a sport (because it is a sport) is newer than olympic fencing, and in some places is already merged (in the administration) with olympic fencing, this happened in some places in Europe. I think it would be nice and useful for every fencer if you considered fencing as a whole that includes olympic fencing and HEMA fencing. Best of luck, love your work.
HEMA fencing is not a sport.
It could be in the future, but it’s not right now, because it doesn’t have a standardized set of rules that competitors are training for, and much of the HEMA community doesn’t even want those rules to exist, because training for them would destroy the historic aesthetic.
If anything right now, HEMA is much closer to a traditional martial art than a sport.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112Sport- noun- an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
Nothing in the dictionary matches your definition. So if HEMA wants to be a sport, it can be a sport.
@@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112 I see your point, and regardless of weteher you are right or wrong my point was to try to get together all fencers from different horizons. You can consider HEMA a sport or not, whatever makes you happy. All i want is for all fencers to work together, i hope you can feel the same and walk the same path as one community. I wish you the best.
Why do people bother justifying fencing to be realistic?
Ok i wanted to ignore this vid. But i took my time and decided to formulate a proper aswer to question stated here. Rather than falling into this narrative which is basically HEMA vs MOF.
While it may be shocking to some, armed duels and fights are still happening around the world. Be it with machetes, knifes or other cold steel sharp instruments. And there are quite a lot of videos from security cameras that shows them. So let us look at this topic from reality point of view. Not some hypothetical points. Lets take MOF as a playfight that should help you as a training tool for these scenarios. (as it was in history) And let us folow the video points.
Physicallity: Yes, speed, athleticism, reflexes and power would be of great asset from MOF in these scenarios. But while it may be hard / near impossible to enter into grapple, clinch or something like that from fencing distance, some videos shows that modern fight often starts from it. And MOF are not physically prepared for it.
Footwork: Well, now we enter into things that simply are bad in MOF in these scenarios. If we look at the enviroment and footwear that is common, we can easilly realize one of the problems. From experience, i have seem a lot of injuries occure by MO fencers trying to use their extremes of footwork on uneven surface, grass or gravel. MOF just do not work in day to day reality. And while it is relatively easy to adjust in a short time with experience, you need this training. So MOF does not prepare you for that in itself. The other problem is once again body to body contact. In foil we often see ducking that is on-line, where in realistic scenario (someone rushing you) it will (and i know it from experience) end up with you getting knee in the head in good ending, or seriously hurt just from the guy collapsing at you with weapon in hand. Next problem is that fencing stops after exchange. While it may happend, it also may not. And you can also face multiple opponents. So good footwork in realistic scenario keeps you on the move all the time. Which exludes the extremes we see today if MOF.
Distance and angulation: Once again MOF suffers here a lot. In realistic scenario because obstacles exist and it is often engaged from vartious distances as starting point. One cannot really control it in a way how MOF training would suggest. If your back is on a car / wall etc. you cannot move back... you need to sidestep. If your opponent gets close in same scenario, you need to initiate grapple, move through him etc. You often do not have the ability to choose the distance and you need to work from the distance you are given. And MOF is really not training you to do that.
Hand-foot disociaton: Yes. That is good.
Hitting: Now MOF have this missconception that people talk about their "bad habits" when it comes to hitting as edge alignment. No. If you thrust someone you need to penetrate deep enough. If you cut someone wearing modern clothing it is not enough to hit him with the edge (especially if he is wearing a hoodie), you need to cut with the cut... not just hit. The same way as a knife does not cut a bread it you hit it with edge, you need to cut it. And while it is extremely easy to adjust these (like a week on cutting target) it once again needs separate training that is not done in MOF.
I refuse to talk about RoW.
Psychology: While i agree that MOF gives you some great benefits. I also see problems, MOF puts you under pressure only in scenario where you know you are initiating exchange and know when it will end. It far different to get attacked if you are not prepared for it. Or to continue fighting for a random period of time after hit or multiple hits were done. I know from experience with playing various rulesets where ending was after 2 "bloods" or random, or to XY lives, or you kept fighting until you opponent decided that it is done. That you really need differnt mindset for these.
One can also add other bad habits and things that MOF is lacking... like a use of free hand, that while it may not be optimal, it will be reflex of many untrained people and as we know from Mcbane for example it can be good tool to kill you.... But i tried not to add other things not discussed in the video.
I wanted to inform you that I didn't read your post.
@@WaybackFencingClub thank you :-) (i did yours lower.. it is off topic, but i guess you needed to say something, which is what matters. Have a nice day and good fencing.)
Olympic fencing footwork doesn’t really transfer well to historical fencing, it only works in its vacuum. This kind of footwork is only good for getting grappled to the ground for jumping around, the times I’ve fought Olympic fencers that come to historical fencing it’s been this way at least for me. Although many fencing schools today are banning or severely limiting grappling so it works better now
It's general fitness and well-conditioned legs & core that translate well. When I started my HEMA journey as complete untrained office rat - leg training was hardest part and it still largely is.
So this is just patently false
@@konstantin3374 yeah the general fitness helps, but get thrown in the ground while you are doing mini jumps is not worth it in my opinion
@@VelmiVelkiZrut ?
@@anthuan2028you'd have to catch someone to throw them even if it was allowed, and something tells me it won't happen against someone who's good at keeping distance while trying to attack you, even under continuous fight (Codex Wallerstein) rules.