I’m so pleased that you enjoy it Bernie. I must confess, channels with perfect running and no uncoupling or derailments, I find somewhat disturbing! Regards Charlie
God bless you, Sir! After four years of wondering if you wire the "loop" or not, you have come to my rescue and EXPLAINED why you don't. It's so simple! No one I have spoken to, including my "friends" at our local railway museum layout, in all that time said that the signal coming from two different directions could, or will, confuse the locomotive's decoder! Now I can start wiring my layout! My scenery is nearly completed. I had to do something to keep me from going crazy all these years! I'm now a subscriber to your channel! Thank you!
An excellent tutorial. I might have to watch the video several times before my dementure driven brain latches on to common sense but I have the time to do that. I started building my first OO model railway in August 2016. I now have have a 9' x 3' 6" board, which is comprised of 12mm thick external ply and framed and supported with lengths of planed 2" x 2" scotts pine. I covered the whole surface with 4mm rubber- like pads (quite exepensive). Over the two odd years, I have purchased seventeen steam locomotives, of varying shapes, sizes and colours; and seventeen diesel locomotives. Most of the buildings on the layout are from Metcalf and two other manufacturerers; all of which, I have built myself. As I constructed the buildings, I decided to fit lighting insiside all buildings, station platforms and street lighting. I still have sixteen point motors to fit, scenery to arrange and dozens of droppers to solder. A long way to go yet but it is a most enjoyable journey. Then, I will convert the lot to DCC. I already have three separate busses, one for DC, one for DCC and one for Lighting, etc. I have the NCE DCC kit with a 5 amp controller. I thouroughly enjoy your videos because, my brain struggles to absorb written information. Thank you, Alan Parsons.
Wow Alan you certainly have achieved a great deal with a fair way to go too. I’d get the DC bus removed and run purely DCC. Finish the track laying and connect up before embarking on the scenics. Good luck with your project. Regards Charlie
I am very impressed by the inclusion of aspects that do not go to plan! You are showing your audience real life, not just perfection. This gives great encouragement to beginners in the hobby, especially when you explain what went wrong. I find your videos both informative and easy to watch. Thank you Charlie.
Hi Charlie, Decided recently to have a go at building a model railway. Been scouring the web for info as the last time I touched a model train was back in the 70’s. Decided that a DCC system might be the way to go, then found several different videos on how to do the wiring, but none with any particular explanation on why. Then I found your site. Thanks so much for the explanations on wiring and the excellent video of how to do it and the whys and wherefors. I have spent hours over the last few days viewing your videos and now feel a lot more confident that I might be able to get this all together. Don’t have masses of room, so looking at a 8 x 4 N gauge layout, should hopefully keep me busy for the next year or so. Once again, thank you from an ex-pat, now living in Florida.
My experience over 28 years modeling in N scale began in 1989 with DC blocks and such. Moved over to Digitrax DCC in 1996, and now in the last year changing over to an HO layout with sound locos, JMRI train control with detection, signaling, remote turnout controls, etc., has taught me from the beginning to consider what you might want in the future with great success. I also went with screw terminals on all boards (Digitrax DCS100, BDL168, SE8c and PM42) from Accu-Lites & Snaps for Tortoise turnout machines in the changeover to HO. Cheers from USA.
Hi John, Thanks for the info and I’m so pleased that you also enjoy some automation. I too also now use the Digitrax break-outboards. Good luck with your layout. Regards Charlie
I found it extremely interesting and valuable for elderly newcomers to model railroading. All this made with a kind, humble, full of humor though very precise and pertinent style. A nice and enjoyable moment shared with you sir. Thank you from the French side of the channel and bonne année.
The only concern I have is the use of brown/blue wire from twin+earth. Needs a warning label "This is not 240V AC" just in case somebody else needs to work on the layout without your supervision. I mean, it should be obvious that it's not 240v, but better to be safe than sorry. I managed to get some "new old stock" T+E with red/black cores. It looks like I need to subscribe and view your videos on electrofrog etc.
Im new ( returning after 40 years ) to DCC railway and VERY new to your channel. I find your videos interesting and informative. 1 point I would like to comment on is the breaking of the "ring main" into a "radial" circuit. As a retired electrician I have an issue with this. The comments about the problems with a DCC signal being affected by timing is (to me) a very valid one. HOWEVER! If your connecting at various points around the track, you have to be mindful of creating what is known as a 'Parallel Path'. Ie, you have broken the 'ring main' on the bus BUT your TRACK is still a ring main. So I would suggest that ideally there should also be isolation of the TRACK at the break in the 'ring main'. Otherwise your break in the 'ring main will become less effective or possibly negated entirely as the encoded signals from each side of the (now) 'radial circuit' can be bridged by the track itself. I.e.. the signal gets to each end of the 'radial' circuit, but can 'bypass' the new break in the original 'ring' circuit by travelling up the bus / feed wires from each end and then along the rails attached to each end of the two 'radials circuit'! I would suggest that to keep the signal completely clean, you would have to use insulated fishplates between the two 'ends' of the radial circuit?? I hope this makes sense? Lastly, in respect of DCC timing issues. I would ponder that It is possible that in a VERY large layout of having just 2 'radial circuits' that timing issues could still arise at the termination point of the end of each 'radial circuits. Because if the mismatch in timing of the DCC signal this could cause an error to be thrown up at that point I would therefore suggest that you break the areas down in to "zones / busses" each fed directly from the DCC controller (with isolated track at that point also) to minimise the DCC timing issues on larger circuits?? I DO hope this makes sense! ??? I need a brew and a chill after all that.!! Keep up the good work. LOVE your videos! Ian.
Hi Ian , many thanks for your comment. Rest assured, I do understand the complexities of the DCC carrier wave. However, with the layout having two separate booster areas each subdivided into 4 power districts, it’s not as straightforward as one might think. Regards Charlie.
I know this is 5 years old, but on the point at the start. Using a rotary tool to cut the wire also sends little metal splinters everywhere as the cut from a rotary tool abrades the metal, like sanding or anything else. Too easy to get a metal splinter in some part of your body. Cutters are the way to do it, it is what they are designed for. Thanks for the great videos, Charlie. I really enjoy watching these and learn something new every time I watch.
Thanks a lot Charly for taking time, to replace these videos to explain the DCC rules to beginners. Hope you are not in trouble with your "government", due to the many times it takes. Greetings from Hannover / Germany
Going through your Chanel from start to finish when I can wrestle the tv controls from my wife. Very informative and just what I need on a snowy night in Weardale. Old boards out, new boards in. I just need to get my head around DCC electrics. Yeh, two wires..........right. Now, onwards and upwards and hopefully do it right this time. 🤪🤔 Keep up the good work. I’m addicted now.
Hello Charlie, thank you for this video. I'll be watching it many times. I'm so glad for your hints, tips and willingness to show your errors. It really helps seeing a problem solved, and where it came from. A soldering video would be great if you're up for it. I do solder, but at a very uneducated level. Would be great to see your experience in practice. If anyone is interested, we've our Spring exhibition at Ludlow Racecourse on the 5th May - 10 to 4. Thanks again Charlie; looking forward to the next instalment.
Hi Edward, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. The first soldering video is currently uploading and will go out at midday on Friday. Good luck with your show. Have you watched my video on how I organised our Christmas Exhibition? Regards Charlie
Excellent as always Charlie thanks. I finally understand why there needs to be a break in the ring wiring, so simple as soon as you mentioned the time lapse! Ian
Right, So. I'm across the pond from you, so the millimeters stuff doesn't mean much to me, but all of your information is very valuable. I do understand electricity and how it's applied to model railroading, the information regarding the loop and cutting it was very informative. I make my living working on computers for building automation control and the notion that you cut the loop was a revelation. we never intentionally Loop the network, but occasionally it has happened accidentally and all the issues you put forward have occurred. Keep up the great work and I'll keep translating your language and measuring systems to the United States format. Thank You!
Hi Sam, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video and I’ll do my best to “translate” metric to imperial measurements in the future. It’s great that I have a few subscribers in the US but I found it a difficult area to gain RUclips followers. Fingers crossed that might change in 2019.
Very informative, clear and to the point. Particularly useful and interesting as just completing the wiring for 'Gort Station'. Great idea to have the point motors powered from a separate DCC power district to the track (ie in the event a loco runs onto the mouth of a closed point). Your videos are the most practical and best advise on the internet. Thank you
Many thanks Charlie great explanation of bus wires and how to do it... next job on my layout. Some great tips in your video, thanks for taking time to video it....
Thanks Charlie. I will read up on you link. The story behind the wiring is I ordered way too much in the first place and the Courier left it outdoors in the pouring rain so the cardboard reels became sodden. Maplins replaced the whole batch without question and didn’t want the rain damaged reels to be sent back so I have loads of it. Thanks again and please keep up the excellent work. It’s just a shame your not my next door neighbour.!
Great explanations regarding bus wires, districts and droppers. As you say it looks complicated but I agree, that once you have a clear idea of what you want to achieve, it really is quite straightforward. Thank you for all your efforts in passing on your knowledge to newcomers to the hobby like me.
Your Teaching Skills are first-class Charlie, I have been enjoying your videos for a few weeks now & I highly recommend them! Keep up the good work, Thank You, Tony
Excellent video , thanks Charlie , I'm just doing my first layout and this has helped me alot... luckily I live near the Gaugemaster store in Ford and the guys there are a real help too but this has showed me how to do it... I was going to do a ring main style so this advice has really helped me out...
Really enjoyed this especially the wiring process. One day I would love to do this but being in a small London flat one can dream. I have a background in electronics and computing so this appeals greatly. Keep up the great narration, explanation and video work.
As an electronics engineer, well, I hadn't thought about this for model train railways before, but... makes perfect sense that you should cut the ring on DCC.
Another great and informative video, thank you. I have watched quite a few videos about DCC and 'bus wires' and like others, now understand why it isn't a loop, which makes sense now. Still not 100% sure about the size of wire to use for the bus wires and the dropper wires, so will definitely keep this video to hand for reference. Good job Charlie!
Learned to solder in 7th grade and I really like to do it. We had to take "shop class" and one semester it was foundry, metal lathe, electrical, and iron working. Loved it!!! I am lucky that I don't have to worry about the frog as one of my engines is battery powered and the rest of the DCC engines have the "come along" aspect that will keep them running for about 8 seconds without power and this will get them over the switch points and I an use a much less expensive switch.
Excellent vid. I'm about to wire my second layout so...thought I'd just check out Charlie's tips on bus wires. I will get some snap connectors. Thank you Sir!
Great video Charlie. Keep up the great work. Electronics always gives me a headache. Can never figure it out. Also. Nice to see that even you can make a mistake. But a great come back.
Really great video Charlie, thanks for sharing your experience. I am new to this and am building a layout for my son high up around his room on a perspex shelf ;-). I have probably bitten off more than I can chew but it is good fun and learning a lot about DCC. I had already decided to use the 2.5mm2 single core wire from left over mains cabling as it will be a fixed bus hidden in a grove in the supporting wooden rail that holds the perspex up so I am leased that you showed it as an option. I couldn't make my mind up about closed loop or open for the bus but have decided to leave it as open. I am surprised that closed loop timing issues cause a problem as I would have thought it would be nanoseconds difference in the signal arriving from both directions but I think it best to leave it open.
Neat job Charlie 👍 Yes do a soldering how to do please 😁 Fridays are always good knowing you’ve done an update 😊 Have a good weekend see ya next week Stevie
Chadwick TMD Morning Charlie hope your ok and thanks for your reply. I can solder but watching your tutorials on building your new layout has given me some good tips on what can achieve when I re-start my own layout. I drive a mobile medical MRI scanner around the country 6 sometimes 7 day’s a week and working today in Shrewsbury!! So watching your progress helps my day’s go quickly thanks 😊 I also follow Dave 47 and Richard at Everard junction. Looking forward too your next episode 👍 Thanks again Stevie.
Another great bit of tuition from you Charlie and all very well expanded with various options if needed to do things in wiring and attachments to one's system of control. Many issues would be that I have collected (maybe too many) a lot of locos that are DC and only about 20 of them are DCC Ready. I would need to have a wired layout mainly for DC movement, but also have the ability to run DCC via my Dynamis Units while keeping my points operations separate by either hand or toggle switches. Maybe that could be another piece of filming to do if anyone else wishes to have a simple dual control layout.
Hi Charlie, Damage to Xuron cutters, used Dremil to cut the piano wire , did not melt the plastic, just trouble getting the right length. Had to purchase more wire. Not a lot of use for piano wire in Southwest Australia!! Thanks for these very informative videos, and will keep watching your channel for more advice.Richard
Hi Richard, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. Yes it’s hard to cut the wire. I tried marking the cut, removing the motor and cutting the wire. But then it’s so hard the relocate the wire back through the hole. No one said it would be be such a challenge. Regards Charlie
Interesting video. I’m learning how to wire a DC layout (don’t want to and can’t afford DCC). Many of the bus wire / dropper principles seem to apply. Portions of track being isolated with toggle switches and insulated fishplates, for example a siding.
Oh Thak You so much. That was most educative, but a bit confusing as I have no DCC to play with. Hoping to invest in a DCC system in the ear future. I like your style of explanation easy and refreshing. I wll add a WOW to my appreciation. Faizal from Sri Lanka
@@ChadwickModelRailway Hi Charlie, I have so many questions about from moving over from DC to DCC. I will put my questions or "help wanted" clarifications and then list them. I am going on 72, and perhaps I need a decoder in my head, LOL. Stay safe. I have taken my first Astrazeneca jab and in a few weeks wil take the 2nd jab, ouch. regards, Faizal, Colombo, Sri Lanka.
I have seen most if not all your videos now over the last 3 weeks and have now subscribed to your channel, as I have found them helpful, I am only looking at doing a 4 x 8 layout but would like to ask if you can do a video on transformers, as I am not able to find any info which gives 5amp at 15 volt. Thank you for the help that you have given me with your videos Charlie.
Oh dear! Another idea for joining wires. Use insulated crimps. Now, there is a cost, you do ideally need a decent set of ratchet crimping pliers. They ensure the correct pressure is applied. But it is very fast, gives very good joints and there is no soldering. It is in fact one of the only two permitted ways of joining inaccessible mains cables in the UK. (Screw junction boxes are required to be accessible so that the screw tightness can be readily checked). Ideally get yourself an automatic wire stripper - so much faster, easier and more reliable than hand stripping with side cutters. Bare a short end of each wire, insert into the insulated crimp and squeeze shut with the pliers. Basically you get a cold weld. Red insulated crimps are the smallest size, then blue and then yellow. The yellow ones are probably too big for this application. Search 'crimps' and 'crimping tools' on Google for much more info. BobUK.
Fantastic and educational video Charlie and thank you for raising the question of "Do I or don't I" complete the ring on the DCC Bus, something I've been wondering about for a while now but had decided to terminate it at the drop down section at the double doors and of course the track will be insulate at the cut sections on both drop down sections. And thanks to this video I've decided to cut the main Bus at intervals and connect with choc blocks so I can systematically pinpoint a short should it occur, fabulous. Oh and I was also a little worried about the size of my dropper wires but you put my at rest for that as well, so I'm a happy chappie this morning :0) Have a great weekend Charlie and thanks again. Mark One last thing, if doing a soldering video could you if possible include a part of soldering track to vero board, mine is a bit messy and I could do with some tips for when I come to the main top section of the layout.
Hi Mark, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video and that it was of use to you. I’ll try and include soldering to vero board in the video. Regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie…..sorry it’s a bit late. I’ve been thinking of going DCC but was confused how the bus wire worked. I got the droppers part but wasn’t sure where the bus wire started and stopped! I know now😀
I would find it useful if you could do a video in the future on soldering, particularly on how you solder the dropper wire to the bus wire from underneath the baseboard if your baseboard is not capable of being lifted on its side. Great educational videos.
Hi Charlie, nice video very informative. I’m not so sure about breaking the bus wire ring though, when researching my layout I looked into the subject and basically our rails are also acting as a bus wire ring. The way around that is to put 2 plastic rail joiners at the same place (electrically) where you break the bus wire ring. However the timing of the signal shouldn’t be affected in the way it was described to you because it’s artificial ac current (bi-polar dc) and the decoder needs to receive the whole packet of the signal, electricity flows close to the speed of light and DCC works in micro seconds not nano seconds.
Hi Paul, I’m pleased that you enjoyed the video. Regarding splitting the bus, I’ve heard the views on both sides and, in light of the cessation of some strange indications on our club layout, I’m in favour of splitting it. After all there are no disadvantages that I can see. Regards Charlie
I also use Digitrax but I use DPDT Centre off switches to feed my Tortoise motors, This way I can see what direction the point is set to, by looking at the switch lever, otherwise it would mean LED's on the control board to indicate which way the point is set to go.
Wire is something with one conductor, for example the blue OR the brown. A cable has multiple conductors, for example the grey twin and earth cable, or the black and red cable.
The reason we use solid core wire is not because it doesn't need to move around (in fact not all stranded core wire is meant to be moved around), it is because AC current travels through the center of the single wire, while DC current travels on the outside surface of the wire. So if you have AC it is best to have a single thick wire and if you have DC it is best if you have many wires that increases the actual surface that the DC current can travel on. That's why, having thicker or larger gauge vehicle jumper cables is better to pass, as much current to the dead battery. While with a battery charger, only needs to be a smaller gauge to charge the battery over time.
@@ChadwickModelRailway it doesn't. It doesn't matter if you used PWM or straight voltage. The point is the current will flow much better than a single conductor wire. I mentioned this because you said 4:14 we use thick stiff solid core wire for AC house power because it doesn't need to move. That's not why. It's just a characteristic of that wire. If extension cord (very flexible) was just as good at passing AC current they would use it because it be so much easier to install. But it isn't better. It is less effective than a solid core wire. PS. Love this video. Lot's of great info. I'm not even into model railroads. Mainly just electronics in general. Liked and subscribed.
Charlie health and safty warning for the poor man hanging on for dear life on your shunter, He has requested a hard hat :-) Love the video and it will help me in my dcc layout
as a retired auto electrician I find using scotch locks are very hit and miss as they do corrode in the air and cause all manner of faults I was forever removing them and soldering instead as some time the bridge which cuts through the wire and can miss the centre core and just rub up against it so causing a poor connection I have removed hundreds of them with that fault. I find soldering the best foolproof method thought I would let you know all the best john from rugby.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Ferrules is a much better way of connecting wires as you will always get a good connection. there are many good ways of connecting wires scotch locks are not one of them as I mentioned above. all the best john from rugby.ps your model train videos, in my opinion, are the best tutorial train videos on youtube by far none even come close to yours I personally as a professional auto electrician think you are doing an amazing job.
I did not get on with snap connections, due to access working under base board, gone back to choc block connections, also easily to find faults and fix.Richard
Hi Charlie. . .Brilliant straightforward guides so far. Are you able to do a tutorial on (or have you already done one) adding ballast. I'm having a DCC Custom board made with the tracks all laid, but one of the first jobs will be to ballast it. Your thoughts are welcome !!!
Great video Charlie, Now I understand how your feeds are wired where your cab bus (Loconet) goes directly to your point controller and I can see how you avoid the Hand of God when you enter an incorrectly set point. On my system the cab bus does not go to the point controllers as they use track power for their data so I wire them to a separate power district. This is the trouble when we try to show how we wire things as all systems are slightly different. Yours being all Digitrax and mine being a mixture of NCE, Merg and other bespoke items that I have cobbled together. But I found it very interresting to see how the Digitrax system works. .........John
Do you make an occasional wrap of the two bus wires? I have heard that it reduces the interface of the DCC signal. I’ve also heard about making a termination with a capacitor and resistor at the ends of long bus runs. What is your thoughts on this? I like your advice about not soldering to the rail joints. I’ve had the best luck soldering to the rail web. Once the rail is weathered, and the ballast is spread, then the wire never shows. On your topic of splitting the bus on a circular track plan, it’s good advice. For the viewers, don’t forget to cut your rail and install insulated rail joints at the same location. If this is not done, then it would be electrically the same as having a continuous bus.
Hi Brian, I’m pleased that you found it useful. I heard of folk twisting the cables to counter induction but not of using a capacitor/resistor. Regards Charlie
Great video, especially the part about why the bus shouldn't be a circuit, but have a gap. At about 21 minutes you talk about the Digitrax BDL 168, and what to do if you're not into block detection. Could you follow up on your setup and show how to wire up the BDL 168 if you want to get into block detection? Currently got just a basic JMRI controlled DCC layout; no Loconet, etc, and looking at where to go from there.
Hi Phil, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. I won’t be producing a BDL168 video until my latest layout gets to that stage. Check out Digitrax Dad’s BDL video as I recall his series is pretty good.
Hi Charlie I watched your video here on BUS wire installation, and I to have a ring main type layout, which i have also included a physical break in the bus wire as you suggested. My question is if my layout tracks run in the same configuration then would I also need to create a break within the track so the signal can only go one way so to speak. as i have numerous droppers feeding from the bus wire onto each track line , so in essence my track loop will be cut by use of the insulator fishplates. Regards Dave
Charlie, here is a list of Digitrax items as you requested. Mobile, Decoder, super Chief super premium DCC Starter set, DS54, LT1, DH126D, PR3 XTRA, LNC162, LNCMK, LNCCMC1, UP5, DS64. THIS IS A LIST OF ITEMS WITH A BOOK THAT CAME WITH THE EACH ITEM. Bob
Chadwick Model Railway , I use tordishel, sorry for spelling, (comes from dementia) and question is wiring, do I need to drop a feeder from every track and switch? Being from USA, I get confused with some of the English words. What does straight forward mean. You say it a lot but not sure what it means. Once again, the wording difficulty is from dementia.
Chadwick Model Railway Charlie, I will watch the video but let me ask you this. I have started soldering on the joint connectors. It work well but will it work for both the power and the Digitrax?
Hi Charlie. Excellent video. Most of my questions you have already answered but just a couple more. I have Maplins cable (miles of it , long story) 24/0.2 and just checked its rated at 4.5A . 1) Can I use this cable for both the droppers and the main bus lane. If not I will use mains cable for my bus lane. 2) Do you recommend rail isolator joiners for the track above where I put a break in the ring. Finally Its rather a big room . I will be running both DCC and DC on my layout, (completely separate tracks of course) and the two will not link up. Will it be OK to run a complete bus ring back to the transformer on the DC track without putting a break in it. Will the Maplins cable be suitable for both the DC track bus wire and droppers and will I still need a dropper on every piece of DC track as with DCC. My total ovals on each circuit will be around 70ft of track. Finally, if ever you decide to take on paid "hands on" consultancy work and your not too far from Northwich, Cheshire can I be the first to book you !!
Hi Mike the 24 0.2 cable is wonderful for bus wiring. However you should not of draw power more than 4.5 Amps. It would be a waste to use it for droppers where 16 0.2 will be more suitable so it is a bit of an overkill. Please read through the info link in my last video. It explains about open and closed loops. Regarding DC, not my field I’m afraid. Several droppers would be best but not as often as DCC. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, in respect of your previous video about stabbing your thumb. I always use a locking pliers to hold the pin just above the track, you can then cut with confidence. The pin won't fly anywhere.. regards JC
Hello Charlie, great video as always and very informative with some great techniques. I think it is essential to be able to solder for modelling and why people don't want to try amazes me, as in most cases, 99% of things people do on their layouts they have never done before, it’s all a learning curve. I am a little concerned with the wiring, have you considered Voltage Drop and Impedance? I am not too sure on your length of "Bus Wire" but 5 amp flex is not enough for a 5 amp system over a distance cable/flex will lose voltage. This can be calculated through the basics of "Voltage Drop Law" which is Vdrop = IR. I find it is always best to double the amperage rating of the cable/flex for longer distances, otherwise you increase the chance of Voltage Drop. For example, a 20AWG (0.5mm thick) at a distance of 5 meters with 15 volts and 5 amps could see a voltage drop of 11% but using a 14AWG (twin and earth type cable 1.5mm) with the same distance, voltage and amperage would see a drop of 2.7%. The golden rule for Voltage Drop is maximum of 3% albeit more towards household wiring but considering DCC it should be more robust. There is a plethora of factors to consider; rail causes resistance; Nickel Silver is 19x more resistant than copper, the type of wire is important; copper being the best for conductance and reduced Voltage Drop and there are many more factors. There have also been cases where impendence has caused loss of control above certain speeds as some motors and decoders have increased sensitivity over waveform distortion. It could be even worse if you added devices to the "Bus Wire" for DCC Signal/Power but thankfully LocoNET covers that. So, bearing that in mind; from Rail to the "Bus Wire" a 2-3 amp wire/flex would suffice but a "Bus Wire" over a distance, connecting to many droppers, etc would need a thicker gauge and higher amperage rated cable/flex. In terms of Digitrax a 3 amp wire from the Rail to the BDL168 (dependant on distance of the cable/flex and length of track) would suffice, this reduces impedance, considers “double heading”, coach lighting and sound locomotives, only then requiring a higher gauge/amperage cable/flex for the common return ("Bus Wire"). You can terminate the “Bus Wire” by using a method with a terminator but Digitrax specifically does not recommend it at all. The principle thinking of a "Ring Main" is right but only in terms of it requires thicker gauge wire to power the appliances, to reduce the impedance and current draw (too much current, produces heat and then fire, if not careful), the same idea should be applied to layouts. If you want to take full advantage of the 5 amps, without any problems over longer cables, I do suggest using a higher rated cable/flex. Majority of my wiring on my layout is Automotive wire, which is near enough double or triple the rating that is needed. I have from Rail to BDL168 is 3 amps and Common Return is the Brown cable of the “Twin and Earth” thus ensuring reduced Voltage Drop and Impedance. A company I use is PoleVolt which supply 100m reels at a reasonable price. Hope that helps and not too much information overload. Des
Hi Des, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. I do understand your concern over the voltage drop over distance. As an ex helicopter electrical engineer, I do have a deeper understanding than most. However, it’s very easy to over engineer what is fundamentally, a hobby. In the past, I have often lost sight of the aim, worrying too much over certain less important details. I mentioned about power districts, and having them, is a massive asset. They make power management much simpler and fault finding far easier. Furthermore, it’s also easy to check voltage at the rails should voltage drop become significant and adjust as necessary. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, You mention the problems that can occur when you have a full, unbroken bus, i.e. a signal sent to say a point motor traveling in both directions can arrive at the point at two different times. Would this not cause the points, to, say, open then close because of the two signals?
Hi All, I noted your comment, it's to do with drawing current not so much with feed, I have a ring main to feed 12 dc the point draws from the least resistance, yes it is in theory feeding from both directions but it is the speed of light so on your 4 m x 2 m board it wont make any difference and this is also true for DCC on small layouts but on large layouts a ring main will not work all the time but it will most of the time, also all my lights & points are feed off the ring main with no problems. I have a separate power supply of 12 dc 10 amps that means it is able to feed 10 amps only when needed most times it would not be required to supply more than 1 to 2 amps, that's why they call them 'power supply'
Do you share links? I am interested in the shoe lace ferral & crimping tool, to use in keeping strands of wire tightly together. I use a wire length measuring meter to check remaining length of wire on spools! The stranded wire frays into a mess, keeping it tight to begin with will help preventing getting poked by the individual strands! Great see how to buss wire track! Best Regards.
Thank you for the video - I have just found it. It is excellent, very concise and I wish I had found your videos earlier I am a newcomer to layouts and I have found the thickness of the bus wire hard to come to terms with as opinions vary markedly from one source to another. My layout is roughly 17ft by 8ft. A lot of US sources say 12 guage(AWG) wire which is 2.05mm (0.0808inch) diameter and 3.31mm2 cross section area. How does your bus wire compare to this US opinion? Unfortunately in Australia the wire is not labelled as AWG and the thickness labelled is quite confusing to a dummy like me around electrics. I bought some Narva auto cable which is rated at 10amps for the feeders (1.13mm2) which equates roughly to AWG 16.5. Would this be adequate as bus wire also or do I need to go bigger? Also does it matter if the feeder wires are over engineered? Thanks for letting me ramble - I hope it makes sense.
Hi Michael, that cable is more than adequate. 10 amps is a lot of current. I'll bet that your system is not outputting 5 amps and no, over engineering is not a problem except on your pocket.
I know my reply is a bit late, BUT you mention the signals for the decoder in the loco as getting echo signals when using a ring main type feed, What are your thoughts regarding the fact that this can still happen when not using a ring main, but can still receive echo signals from the adjoining rails from other droppers.
Hi Charlie. I have been enjoying your videos immensely, especially during this lock down period. The signal gantry one was good and I have a etched brass kit of a gantry to build. Before I start it however, I need to get an understanding of how these things wire up with Digitrax. Can you do a video of this please? I have 4 zones in my layout but I’m going to change that to six so I can run more than 2 trains at once.
The reason solid wire is used in a house AC and multi stand wire in used for DC is AC current runs thru the center of the wire hence one large wire and DC current runs on the outside of wire hence many small wires.
Hi Carl, I was always lead to believe that solid core was for fixed cables and multi-core for cables which are mobile. Hence an AC kettle cable, vacuum cleaner etc. are multi core.
Hiya and thank you for a great video, warts and all plus answering so many of my questions. Next question, how could that system run a mimic board showing all the points and how they are set? Could that system show on a mimic board witch sections of track are in use?
Hi Steve, That’s a simple question. The point orientation can easily be duplicated especially if you use tortoise motors. You simply need an auxiliary switch to power the LEDs. But to show the progress of a loco around the layout is for more difficult and requires block detection. The wiring then becomes more complicated and the price of components is substantial. Regards Charlie
Charlie; thanks for all of the great info that you supply in your videos. Quick question if I may. I operate with an MRC DCC system. On my new layout I'd like to add the DS74 quad controller. in various areas. What I cannot discern is whether I need anything in between my MRC system and the Digitrax device to make this work? Any advice? Cheers
Another question Charlie, do you solder the tracks together with the fishplate. Or do you let the glue or pins hold the tracks together. I am using all second hand track. Many of them came with solder at the ends of the tracks. I’m planning on ditching the use track I have and buying all new code 83 track so I have all the same code. As it is now, there are some 100 and some 83. I don’t know what the lower code is but I’ll bet I have some of that too.
After seeing this I split my large circular ring main at the far side opposite my DCC controller but I have a question. Do the DCC signals still run around the track in both directions as that is still a complete/joined circle or do you have a spilt in the track also?
Hi Charlie, thanks for the informative video, quick question, does the bus wire have to be directly under the tracks in question, as your theory regarding confusing signals could also be relevant here, if the signal is going round the bus AND the track (as both are live) if the bus wire is not directly under the track, it may come slower then via the track itself, will the signal become distorted or is it all lighting fast? many thanks. A
Hi Carlie; super enjoying your video as I am deciding what DCC system I'm hoping to use. One question regarding the wiring, you mentioned that because you had your points powered with a separate supply, but I only see the one supply coming in. Am I missing something?
I am building a small N gauge kit {3ft. by 6ft.} from Woodland Scenics. My question is about whether or not it is necessary to run a bus wire on such a small layout with 3 or 4 switches
Do I just set up a DCS64 in each district and connected it to the drop wires that have been connected to each track enough to allow Digitrax to see where each loco is on the layout?
DS64 is not a power district item. You can power them from 12v dc via the socket at the back. They are designed to change points. BDL168 allows block detection and requires a computer program to see where locos are.
Charlie you are the best on the internet- love the fact you leave your mistakes in- that’s the way we beginners learn we are not idiots
I’m so pleased that you enjoy it Bernie. I must confess, channels with perfect running and no uncoupling or derailments, I find somewhat disturbing! Regards Charlie
God bless you, Sir! After four years of wondering if you wire the "loop" or not, you have come to my rescue and EXPLAINED why you don't. It's so simple! No one I have spoken to, including my "friends" at our local railway museum layout, in all that time said that the signal coming from two different directions could, or will, confuse the locomotive's decoder! Now I can start wiring my layout! My scenery is nearly completed. I had to do something to keep me from going crazy all these years! I'm now a subscriber to your channel! Thank you!
Hi Randall, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video and that it has helped with your project.
Regards Charlie
I would love to take on an apprenticeship under this man. Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Mathew, you’re too kind.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video.
Regards Charlie
An excellent tutorial. I might have to watch the video several times before my dementure driven brain latches on to common sense but I have the time to do that.
I started building my first OO model railway in August 2016. I now have have a 9' x 3' 6" board, which is comprised of 12mm thick external ply and framed and supported with lengths of planed 2" x 2" scotts pine. I covered the whole surface with 4mm rubber- like pads (quite exepensive). Over the two odd years, I have purchased seventeen steam locomotives, of varying shapes, sizes and colours; and seventeen diesel locomotives. Most of the buildings on the layout are from Metcalf and two other manufacturerers; all of which, I have built myself. As I constructed the buildings, I decided to fit lighting insiside all buildings, station platforms and street lighting. I still have sixteen point motors to fit, scenery to arrange and dozens of droppers to solder. A long way to go yet but it is a most enjoyable journey. Then, I will convert the lot to DCC. I already have three separate busses, one for DC, one for DCC and one for Lighting, etc. I have the NCE DCC kit with a 5 amp controller.
I thouroughly enjoy your videos because, my brain struggles to absorb written information. Thank you,
Alan Parsons.
Wow Alan you certainly have achieved a great deal with a fair way to go too.
I’d get the DC bus removed and run purely DCC. Finish the track laying and connect up before embarking on the scenics.
Good luck with your project.
Regards Charlie
Thanks for reply. I will certainly follow your advice.
I am very impressed by the inclusion of aspects that do not go to plan! You are showing your audience real life, not just perfection. This gives great encouragement to beginners in the hobby, especially when you explain what went wrong. I find your videos both informative and easy to watch. Thank you Charlie.
I appreciate that FH, thanks a lot mate.
Hi Charlie,
Decided recently to have a go at building a model railway. Been scouring the web for info as the last time I touched a model train was back in the 70’s.
Decided that a DCC system might be the way to go, then found several different videos on how to do the wiring, but none with any particular explanation on why. Then I found your site.
Thanks so much for the explanations on wiring and the excellent video of how to do it and the whys and wherefors.
I have spent hours over the last few days viewing your videos and now feel a lot more confident that I might be able to get this all together.
Don’t have masses of room, so looking at a 8 x 4 N gauge layout, should hopefully keep me busy for the next year or so.
Once again, thank you from an ex-pat, now living in Florida.
What a heartwarming comment Al. Good luck with your new layout, please remember the planning is everything. Regards Charlie
My experience over 28 years modeling in N scale began in 1989 with DC blocks and such. Moved over to Digitrax DCC in 1996, and now in the last year changing over to an HO layout with sound locos, JMRI train control with detection, signaling, remote turnout controls, etc., has taught me from the beginning to consider what you might want in the future with great success. I also went with screw terminals on all boards (Digitrax DCS100, BDL168, SE8c and PM42) from Accu-Lites & Snaps for Tortoise turnout machines in the changeover to HO. Cheers from USA.
Hi John,
Thanks for the info and I’m so pleased that you also enjoy some automation.
I too also now use the Digitrax break-outboards.
Good luck with your layout.
Regards Charlie
I found it extremely interesting and valuable for elderly newcomers to model railroading. All this made with a kind, humble, full of humor though very precise and pertinent style. A nice and enjoyable moment shared with you sir.
Thank you from the French side of the channel and bonne année.
Thank you so much for your kind words.
It is comments like yours that make it worthwhile. Hopefully you have subscribed too.
Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Ditto from another elderly newcomer. (Cant believe how I've started to describe myself.) Thanks.
Great video. Thanks. The break in the ring bus (shown at 14:50) is a great tip.
Thanks Ernie.
The only concern I have is the use of brown/blue wire from twin+earth. Needs a warning label "This is not 240V AC" just in case somebody else needs to work on the layout without your supervision. I mean, it should be obvious that it's not 240v, but better to be safe than sorry. I managed to get some "new old stock" T+E with red/black cores.
It looks like I need to subscribe and view your videos on electrofrog etc.
A good tip regarding the labelling, thanks.
Im new ( returning after 40 years ) to DCC railway and VERY new to your channel. I find your videos interesting and informative.
1 point I would like to comment on is the breaking of the "ring main" into a "radial" circuit.
As a retired electrician I have an issue with this. The comments about the problems with a DCC signal being affected by timing is (to me) a very valid one. HOWEVER! If your connecting at various points around the track, you have to be mindful of creating what is known as a 'Parallel Path'.
Ie, you have broken the 'ring main' on the bus BUT your TRACK is still a ring main. So I would suggest that ideally there should also be isolation of the TRACK at the break in the 'ring main'.
Otherwise your break in the 'ring main will become less effective or possibly negated entirely as the encoded signals from each side of the (now) 'radial circuit' can be bridged by the track itself. I.e.. the signal gets to each end of the 'radial' circuit, but can 'bypass' the new break in the original 'ring' circuit by travelling up the bus / feed wires from each end and then along the rails attached to each end of the two 'radials circuit'!
I would suggest that to keep the signal completely clean, you would have to use insulated fishplates between the two 'ends' of the radial circuit??
I hope this makes sense?
Lastly, in respect of DCC timing issues. I would ponder that It is possible that in a VERY large layout of having just 2 'radial circuits' that timing issues could still arise at the termination point of the end of each 'radial circuits. Because if the mismatch in timing of the DCC signal this could cause an error to be thrown up at that point I would therefore suggest that you break the areas down in to "zones / busses" each fed directly from the DCC controller (with isolated track at that point also) to minimise the DCC timing issues on larger circuits??
I DO hope this makes sense! ??? I need a brew and a chill after all that.!!
Keep up the good work. LOVE your videos!
Ian.
Hi Ian , many thanks for your comment.
Rest assured, I do understand the complexities of the DCC carrier wave.
However, with the layout having two separate booster areas each subdivided into 4 power districts, it’s not as straightforward as one might think. Regards Charlie.
I know this is 5 years old, but on the point at the start. Using a rotary tool to cut the wire also sends little metal splinters everywhere as the cut from a rotary tool abrades the metal, like sanding or anything else. Too easy to get a metal splinter in some part of your body. Cutters are the way to do it, it is what they are designed for.
Thanks for the great videos, Charlie. I really enjoy watching these and learn something new every time I watch.
Thanks Brendan, thankfully my techniques have improved considerably since this video. Regards Charlie
Thanks a lot Charly for taking time, to replace these videos to explain the DCC rules to beginners. Hope you are not in trouble with your "government", due to the many times it takes. Greetings from Hannover / Germany
Thanks Christian, I’m so pleased that you found it useful.
I have watched loads of videos on this topic and yours', by far is the most clear and understandable. Great video.
You’re too kind Joe.
Going through your Chanel from start to finish when I can wrestle the tv controls from my wife. Very informative and just what I need on a snowy night in Weardale. Old boards out, new boards in. I just need to get my head around DCC electrics. Yeh, two wires..........right.
Now, onwards and upwards and hopefully do it right this time. 🤪🤔 Keep up the good work. I’m addicted now.
Good luck on the journey Mike, it’s great to have you onboard.
Hello Charlie, thank you for this video. I'll be watching it many times. I'm so glad for your hints, tips and willingness to show your errors. It really helps seeing a problem solved, and where it came from. A soldering video would be great if you're up for it. I do solder, but at a very uneducated level. Would be great to see your experience in practice. If anyone is interested, we've our Spring exhibition at Ludlow Racecourse on the 5th May - 10 to 4. Thanks again Charlie; looking forward to the next instalment.
Hi Edward, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. The first soldering video is currently uploading and will go out at midday on Friday. Good luck with your show. Have you watched my video on how I organised our Christmas Exhibition? Regards Charlie
Yes, I did watch it. Thankfully I'm new to being in a club so the reach of my responsibility is the car park 😁
Excellent as always Charlie thanks. I finally understand why there needs to be a break in the ring wiring, so simple as soon as you mentioned the time lapse! Ian
Hi Ian,
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video and that it was useful.
Regards Charlie
Right, So. I'm across the pond from you, so the millimeters stuff doesn't mean much to me, but all of your information is very valuable. I do understand electricity and how it's applied to model railroading, the information regarding the loop and cutting it was very informative. I make my living working on computers for building automation control and the notion that you cut the loop was a revelation. we never intentionally Loop the network, but occasionally it has happened accidentally and all the issues you put forward have occurred.
Keep up the great work and I'll keep translating your language and measuring systems to the United States format. Thank You!
Hi Sam, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video and I’ll do my best to “translate” metric to imperial measurements in the future.
It’s great that I have a few subscribers in the US but I found it a difficult area to gain RUclips followers. Fingers crossed that might change in 2019.
Very informative, clear and to the point. Particularly useful and interesting as just completing the wiring for 'Gort Station'. Great idea to have the point motors powered from a separate DCC power district to the track (ie in the event a loco runs onto the mouth of a closed point). Your videos are the most practical and best advise on the internet. Thank you
What a heartwarming comment Noel, you’re too kind mate. Regards Charlie
Many thanks Charlie great explanation of bus wires and how to do it... next job on my layout. Some great tips in your video, thanks for taking time to video it....
I’m so pleased that you found it useful Keith. Regards Charlie
Very useful. Like the idea of the separate bus for track power and point motors.
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Alan, regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie. I will read up on you link. The story behind the wiring is I ordered way too much in the first place and the Courier left it outdoors in the pouring rain so the cardboard reels became sodden. Maplins replaced the whole batch without question and didn’t want the rain damaged reels to be sent back so I have loads of it. Thanks again and please keep up the excellent work. It’s just a shame your not my next door neighbour.!
I agree Mike, living next door to all that cable!
Great explanations regarding bus wires, districts and droppers. As you say it looks complicated but I agree, that once you have a clear idea of what you want to achieve, it really is quite straightforward. Thank you for all your efforts in passing on your knowledge to newcomers to the hobby like me.
Hi Ian, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. Regards Charlie
Your Teaching Skills are first-class Charlie, I have been enjoying your videos for a few weeks now & I highly recommend them! Keep up the good work, Thank You, Tony
What a heartwarming comment Tony. Regards Charlie.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Was you an avionics instructor?
Excellent video , thanks Charlie , I'm just doing my first layout and this has helped me alot... luckily I live near the Gaugemaster store in Ford and the guys there are a real help too but this has showed me how to do it... I was going to do a ring main style so this advice has really helped me out...
Thanks Darren, I’m so pleased you enjoyed it. Living so close though, could be an expensive situation. Regards, Charlie.
You are so very right about cuting the wire on the switch machine. I to have ruined a good pair of track cutting pliers many years ago.
You and me both David.
And another fan from The Netherlands here ! Great vids !
Thanks Pim
I like how you don't put a bunch of "random" edits/cuts in you show the entire proccess
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it CCR
Really enjoyed this especially the wiring process. One day I would love to do this but being in a small London flat one can dream. I have a background in electronics and computing so this appeals greatly. Keep up the great narration, explanation and video work.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Mr A.
Regards Charlie
As an electronics engineer, well, I hadn't thought about this for model train railways before, but... makes perfect sense that you should cut the ring on DCC.
So many just won't have it!
Another great and informative video, thank you. I have watched quite a few videos about DCC and 'bus wires' and like others, now understand why it isn't a loop, which makes sense now. Still not 100% sure about the size of wire to use for the bus wires and the dropper wires, so will definitely keep this video to hand for reference. Good job Charlie!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it David.
A soldering video would be fantastic Charlie hope you get enough support to do it your videos are amazing 👌
I’ve all ready made a couple but another is on the list.
@@ChadwickModelRailway i've watched a fair few but a more in depth tutorial would be fantastic thanks charlie
Learned to solder in 7th grade and I really like to do it. We had to take "shop class" and one semester it was foundry, metal lathe, electrical, and iron working. Loved it!!! I am lucky that I don't have to worry about the frog as one of my engines is battery powered and the rest of the DCC engines have the "come along" aspect that will keep them running for about 8 seconds without power and this will get them over the switch points and I an use a much less expensive switch.
Thanks David, an interesting comment.
Excellent vid. I'm about to wire my second layout so...thought I'd just check out Charlie's tips on bus wires. I will get some snap connectors. Thank you Sir!
Good luck with your new build mate. Please remember, that it’s only one wire at a time! Please label as you go.
Regards, Charlie
Excellent. Thank you for your time Charlie. Appreciated. Peter
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Peter. Regards Charlie
Great video!!!! I will be returning to this video several times.........
Hi Giulius,
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. Regards Charlie
Another great advice video, yes I did exactly what you said NOT to do, lessons learnt.Richard
Hi Richard, I’m intrigued, what did you do? Was it the melting of the point? Regards Charlie
That us such an excellent video. Thank you John aka N Quay Harbour
Thanks John, I’m so pleased that you found it useful.
Simply brilliant wiring I'm dreading when I do my layout as it don't go in a circle but love it I'm learning so much thank u
Hi Paul, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. Regards Charlie
Great studio background system , and many thanks for the tutorial on the bus system 👍
Glad you liked it!
Super and clear presentation
Thanks Ken.
Thank you for these technical and educational videos.
I would like to see a video about soldering! Greetz from Holland!
Hi Onno, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. I will do a soldering video next, if like you, I get a reasonable response. Regards Charlie
Great video Charlie. Keep up the great work. Electronics always gives me a headache. Can never figure it out. Also. Nice to see that even you can make a mistake. But a great come back.
Hi William, we all make mistakes it’s just admitting to them!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. Good luck with your layout. Regards Charlie
Really great video Charlie, thanks for sharing your experience. I am new to this and am building a layout for my son high up around his room on a perspex shelf ;-).
I have probably bitten off more than I can chew but it is good fun and learning a lot about DCC. I had already decided to use the 2.5mm2 single core wire from left over mains cabling as it will be a fixed bus hidden in a grove in the supporting wooden rail that holds the perspex up so I am leased that you showed it as an option. I couldn't make my mind up about closed loop or open for the bus but have decided to leave it as open.
I am surprised that closed loop timing issues cause a problem as I would have thought it would be nanoseconds difference in the signal arriving from both directions but I think it best to leave it open.
I’m so pleased that you find the channel useful Gary. Good luck with your project. Regards Charlie
Neat job Charlie 👍 Yes do a soldering how to do please 😁 Fridays are always good knowing you’ve done an update 😊 Have a good weekend see ya next week Stevie
Hi Stevie,
Next time soldering it is.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video.
Regards Charlie
Chadwick TMD
Morning Charlie hope your ok and thanks for your reply.
I can solder but watching your tutorials on building your new layout has given me some good tips on what can achieve when I re-start my own layout.
I drive a mobile medical MRI scanner around the country 6 sometimes 7 day’s a week and working today in Shrewsbury!! So watching your progress helps my day’s go quickly thanks 😊 I also follow Dave 47 and Richard at Everard junction. Looking forward too your next episode 👍 Thanks again Stevie.
Another great bit of tuition from you Charlie and all very well expanded with various options if needed to do things in wiring and attachments to one's system of control. Many issues would be that I have collected (maybe too many) a lot of locos that are DC and only about 20 of them are DCC Ready. I would need to have a wired layout mainly for DC movement, but also have the ability to run DCC via my Dynamis Units while keeping my points operations separate by either hand or toggle switches. Maybe that could be another piece of filming to do if anyone else wishes to have a simple dual control layout.
An interesting option John, I'll have a think.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Oops that should have been 20x Locos DCC Fitted.
Hi Charlie, Damage to Xuron cutters, used Dremil to cut the piano wire , did not melt the plastic, just trouble getting the right length. Had to purchase more wire. Not a lot of use for piano wire in Southwest Australia!! Thanks for these very informative videos, and will keep watching your channel for more advice.Richard
Hi Richard,
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. Yes it’s hard to cut the wire. I tried marking the cut, removing the motor and cutting the wire. But then it’s so hard the relocate the wire back through the hole.
No one said it would be be such a challenge.
Regards Charlie
Interesting video. I’m learning how to wire a DC layout (don’t want to and can’t afford DCC). Many of the bus wire / dropper principles seem to apply. Portions of track being isolated with toggle switches and insulated fishplates, for example a siding.
I’m so pleased that my videos are useful Simon. Regards Charlie
Oh Thak You so much. That was most educative, but a bit confusing as I have no DCC to play with. Hoping to invest in a DCC system in the ear future. I like your style of explanation easy and refreshing. I wll add a WOW to my appreciation. Faizal from Sri Lanka
What a heart warming comment Faizal. Stay safe. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Hi Charlie, I have so many questions about from moving over from DC to DCC. I will put my questions or "help wanted" clarifications and then list them. I am going on 72, and perhaps I need a decoder in my head, LOL. Stay safe. I have taken my first Astrazeneca jab and in a few weeks wil take the 2nd jab, ouch. regards, Faizal, Colombo, Sri Lanka.
I have seen most if not all your videos now over the last 3 weeks and have now subscribed to your channel, as I have found them helpful, I am only looking at doing a 4 x 8 layout but would like to ask if you can do a video on transformers, as I am not able to find any info which gives 5amp at 15 volt. Thank you for the help that you have given me with your videos Charlie.
DCC or DC? I use Digitrax and I belive their range is all 5 amp.
Give James a call at DCC Train Automation.
Good to know about not making the bus as a ring main.Thanks Charlie.
But also Peter, there should be a break in the rails of a tail chaser too. Otherwise the track will have the same effect. Regards Charlie
Excellent video. Thanks
Thanks Keith
Oh dear! Another idea for joining wires. Use insulated crimps. Now, there is a cost, you do ideally need a decent set of ratchet crimping pliers. They ensure the correct pressure is applied. But it is very fast, gives very good joints and there is no soldering. It is in fact one of the only two permitted ways of joining inaccessible mains cables in the UK. (Screw junction boxes are required to be accessible so that the screw tightness can be readily checked). Ideally get yourself an automatic wire stripper - so much faster, easier and more reliable than hand stripping with side cutters. Bare a short end of each wire, insert into the insulated crimp and squeeze shut with the pliers. Basically you get a cold weld. Red insulated crimps are the smallest size, then blue and then yellow. The yellow ones are probably too big for this application. Search 'crimps' and 'crimping tools' on Google for much more info. BobUK.
Interesting stuff Bob. Where I found crimping difficult was when crimping cables of different sizes.
A very nice Video with a Lot of helpfully tipps - thank you for your great work. Greets lui
Thanks Lui, hopefully you have subscribed too.
Yes I have. May you will subscribe my sites, too? 😉
Sorted!
I can't stress this enough thank you for this and everything
Thanks Samuel, that’s very kind of you to say so. Regards, Charlie
Great how to Charlie, thanks very much for sharing! Cheers, Dan
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Dan. Regards Charlie
Fantastic and educational video Charlie and thank you for raising the question of "Do I or don't I" complete the ring on the DCC Bus, something I've been wondering about for a while now but had decided to terminate it at the drop down section at the double doors and of course the track will be insulate at the cut sections on both drop down sections. And thanks to this video I've decided to cut the main Bus at intervals and connect with choc blocks so I can systematically pinpoint a short should it occur, fabulous.
Oh and I was also a little worried about the size of my dropper wires but you put my at rest for that as well, so I'm a happy chappie this morning :0)
Have a great weekend Charlie and thanks again. Mark
One last thing, if doing a soldering video could you if possible include a part of soldering track to vero board, mine is a bit messy and I could do with some tips for when I come to the main top section of the layout.
Hi Mark, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video and that it was of use to you.
I’ll try and include soldering to vero board in the video.
Regards Charlie
Soldering lesson would be appeciated!!
It is in the pipeline.
Regards Charlie
Thanks Charlie…..sorry it’s a bit late. I’ve been thinking of going DCC but was confused how the bus wire worked. I got the droppers part but wasn’t sure where the bus wire started and stopped!
I know now😀
That’s great news Ron, I’m so pleased that you found it useful. Regards Charlie
Great video. I love soldering but hate it under a baseboard.
Yes, Peter, that’s a painful place to solder. Regards, Charlie.
I would find it useful if you could do a video in the future on soldering, particularly on how you solder the dropper wire to the bus wire from underneath the baseboard if your baseboard is not capable of being lifted on its side. Great educational videos.
Hi PL,
Yes I’ll shoot s soldering video for next Friday. I’ll also have a look at droppers from underneath.
Regards Charlie
Superb video, very informative - thanks!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Roy.
Hi Charlie, nice video very informative. I’m not so sure about breaking the bus wire ring though, when researching my layout I looked into the subject and basically our rails are also acting as a bus wire ring. The way around that is to put 2 plastic rail joiners at the same place (electrically) where you break the bus wire ring. However the timing of the signal shouldn’t be affected in the way it was described to you because it’s artificial ac current (bi-polar dc) and the decoder needs to receive the whole packet of the signal, electricity flows close to the speed of light and DCC works in micro seconds not nano seconds.
Hi Paul, I’m pleased that you enjoyed the video. Regarding splitting the bus, I’ve heard the views on both sides and, in light of the cessation of some strange indications on our club layout, I’m in favour of splitting it. After all there are no disadvantages that I can see. Regards Charlie
Nice videos, yes please for a soldering video.
You’ve got it Michael. Regards Charlie
I also use Digitrax but I use DPDT Centre off switches to feed my Tortoise motors, This way I can see what direction the point is set to, by looking at the switch lever, otherwise it would mean LED's on the control board to indicate which way the point is set to go.
There are so many choices Sam.
We all have our preferences and no one is right, their choice being the best for their needs.
Wire is something with one conductor, for example the blue OR the brown. A cable has multiple conductors, for example the grey twin and earth cable, or the black and red cable.
You’ve nailed it Pete.
I use posi-tap connectors to connect the droppers to the bus they are more expensive than snap connectors but are quicker and more reliable.
I’m sorry Rich, I haven’t t come across Posi-tap connectors.
Do you have a link?
Enjoyed your channel have subscribedｗｗｗ.ｐｏｓｉ-ｐｒｏｄｕｃｔｓ.ｃｏｍ
The reason we use solid core wire is not because it doesn't need to move around (in fact not all stranded core wire is meant to be moved around), it is because AC current travels through the center of the single wire, while DC current travels on the outside surface of the wire. So if you have AC it is best to have a single thick wire and if you have DC it is best if you have many wires that increases the actual surface that the DC current can travel on. That's why, having thicker or larger gauge vehicle jumper cables is better to pass, as much current to the dead battery. While with a battery charger, only needs to be a smaller gauge to charge the battery over time.
But DCC isn’t AC, it’s actually a square wave DC wave form. So how does this affect its flow? Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway it doesn't. It doesn't matter if you used PWM or straight voltage. The point is the current will flow much better than a single conductor wire. I mentioned this because you said 4:14 we use thick stiff solid core wire for AC house power because it doesn't need to move. That's not why. It's just a characteristic of that wire. If extension cord (very flexible) was just as good at passing AC current they would use it because it be so much easier to install. But it isn't better. It is less effective than a solid core wire.
PS. Love this video. Lot's of great info. I'm not even into model railroads. Mainly just electronics in general. Liked and subscribed.
Very logical :) thanks for sharing :)
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting SPL
@@ChadwickModelRailway Super interesting. I wish I can be as good as you are in explaining :) Super well done :)
Charlie health and safty warning for the poor man hanging on for dear life on your shunter, He has requested a hard hat :-) Love the video and it will help me in my dcc layout
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
No hard hats in those days!
Regards Charlie
as a retired auto electrician I find using scotch locks are very hit and miss as they do corrode in the air and cause all manner of faults I was forever removing them and soldering instead as some time the bridge which cuts through the wire and can miss the centre core and just rub up against it so causing a poor connection I have removed hundreds of them with that fault. I find soldering the best foolproof method thought I would let you know all the best john from rugby.
I too have moved on, I now use ferrules whenever i can.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Ferrules is a much better way of connecting wires as you will always get a good connection. there are many good ways of connecting wires scotch locks are not one of them as I mentioned above. all the best john from rugby.ps your model train videos, in my opinion, are the best tutorial train videos on youtube by far none even come close to yours I personally as a professional auto electrician think you are doing an amazing job.
Great video. You are correct. You should not have your Bus as a ring.
Thanks Alvaro, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
Cheers Charlie, good video. It helps clear some of the fog of wiring. Geoff
Hi Geoff, wiring is always a puzzle at first. I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. Regards Charlie
I did not get on with snap connections, due to access working under base board, gone back to choc block connections, also easily to find faults and fix.Richard
You and me both Richard. I always go for soldering into tag strips or choc block too. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie. . .Brilliant straightforward guides so far. Are you able to do a tutorial on (or have you already done one) adding ballast. I'm having a DCC Custom board made with the tracks all laid, but one of the first jobs will be to ballast it. Your thoughts are welcome !!!
I will produce a ballasting video but please make sure that your track performs perfectly before ballasting.
Great video Charlie, Now I understand how your feeds are wired where your cab bus (Loconet) goes directly to your point controller and I can see how you avoid the Hand of God when you enter an incorrectly set point. On my system the cab bus does not go to the point controllers as they use track power for their data so I wire them to a separate power district. This is the trouble when we try to show how we wire things as all systems are slightly different. Yours being all Digitrax and mine being a mixture of NCE, Merg and other bespoke items that I have cobbled together. But I found it very interresting to see how the Digitrax system works. .........John
Hi John, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it and hopefully it was of some use. Regards Charlie
Do you make an occasional wrap of the two bus wires? I have heard that it reduces the interface of the DCC signal. I’ve also heard about making a termination with a capacitor and resistor at the ends of long bus runs. What is your thoughts on this?
I like your advice about not soldering to the rail joints. I’ve had the best luck soldering to the rail web. Once the rail is weathered, and the ballast is spread, then the wire never shows.
On your topic of splitting the bus on a circular track plan, it’s good advice. For the viewers, don’t forget to cut your rail and install insulated rail joints at the same location. If this is not done, then it would be electrically the same as having a continuous bus.
Hi Brian,
I’m pleased that you found it useful.
I heard of folk twisting the cables to counter induction but not of using a capacitor/resistor.
Regards Charlie
Great video, especially the part about why the bus shouldn't be a circuit, but have a gap. At about 21 minutes you talk about the Digitrax BDL 168, and what to do if you're not into block detection. Could you follow up on your setup and show how to wire up the BDL 168 if you want to get into block detection? Currently got just a basic JMRI controlled DCC layout; no Loconet, etc, and looking at where to go from there.
Hi Phil, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video. I won’t be producing a BDL168 video until my latest layout gets to that stage.
Check out Digitrax Dad’s BDL video as I recall his series is pretty good.
Thanks for the suggestion, they've got some good advice on there too. I've got a SPROG 3 like they use; wish I'd found these videos sooner.
Hi Charlie I watched your video here on BUS wire installation, and I to have a ring main type layout, which i have also included a physical break in the bus wire as you suggested. My question is if my layout tracks run in the same configuration then would I also need to create a break within the track so the signal can only go one way so to speak. as i have numerous droppers feeding from the bus wire onto each track line , so in essence my track loop will be cut by use of the insulator fishplates. Regards Dave
Yes, I do understand SJ, once it’s cut, it’s cut. Regards, Charlie
Charlie, here is a list of Digitrax items as you requested. Mobile, Decoder, super Chief super premium DCC Starter set, DS54, LT1, DH126D, PR3 XTRA, LNC162, LNCMK, LNCCMC1, UP5, DS64. THIS IS A LIST OF ITEMS WITH A BOOK THAT CAME WITH THE EACH ITEM.
Bob
Okay Bob.
Now please explain the type of point motors that you are using and what the problem appears to be.
Chadwick Model Railway , I use tordishel, sorry for spelling, (comes from dementia) and question is wiring, do I need to drop a feeder from every track and switch? Being from USA, I get confused with some of the English words. What does straight forward mean. You say it a lot but not sure what it means. Once again, the wording difficulty is from dementia.
Chadwick Model Railway tortoise slow motor
Hi Bob, watch this video from Digitrax and let me know if it makes sense.
ruclips.net/video/1JCo86J1WJI/видео.html
Chadwick Model Railway Charlie, I will watch the video but let me ask you this. I have started soldering on the joint connectors. It work well but will it work for both the power and the Digitrax?
Hi Charlie. Excellent video. Most of my questions you have already answered but just a couple more. I have Maplins cable (miles of it , long story) 24/0.2 and just checked its rated at 4.5A . 1) Can I use this cable for both the droppers and the main bus lane. If not I will use mains cable for my bus lane. 2) Do you recommend rail isolator joiners for the track above where I put a break in the ring. Finally Its rather a big room . I will be running both DCC and DC on my layout, (completely separate tracks of course) and the two will not link up. Will it be OK to run a complete bus ring back to the transformer on the DC track without putting a break in it. Will the Maplins cable be suitable for both the DC track bus wire and droppers and will I still need a dropper on every piece of DC track as with DCC. My total ovals on each circuit will be around 70ft of track. Finally, if ever you decide to take on paid "hands on" consultancy work and your not too far from Northwich, Cheshire can I be the first to book you !!
Hi Mike the 24 0.2 cable is wonderful for bus wiring. However you should not of draw power more than 4.5 Amps.
It would be a waste to use it for droppers where 16 0.2 will be more suitable so it is a bit of an overkill. Please read through the info link in my last video. It explains about open and closed loops.
Regarding DC, not my field I’m afraid.
Several droppers would be best but not as often as DCC.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, in respect of your previous video about stabbing your thumb. I always use a locking pliers to hold the pin just above the track, you can then cut with confidence. The pin won't fly anywhere.. regards JC
Great point John, and no pain too. Thanks, regards Charlie
Yes please for a soldering video
You’ve got it Alan. Regards Charlie
Hello Charlie, great video as always and very informative with some great techniques. I think it is essential to be able to solder for modelling and why people don't want to try amazes me, as in most cases, 99% of things people do on their layouts they have never done before, it’s all a learning curve.
I am a little concerned with the wiring, have you considered Voltage Drop and Impedance? I am not too sure on your length of "Bus Wire" but 5 amp flex is not enough for a 5 amp system over a distance cable/flex will lose voltage. This can be calculated through the basics of "Voltage Drop Law" which is Vdrop = IR. I find it is always best to double the amperage rating of the cable/flex for longer distances, otherwise you increase the chance of Voltage Drop. For example, a 20AWG (0.5mm thick) at a distance of 5 meters with 15 volts and 5 amps could see a voltage drop of 11% but using a 14AWG (twin and earth type cable 1.5mm) with the same distance, voltage and amperage would see a drop of 2.7%. The golden rule for Voltage Drop is maximum of 3% albeit more towards household wiring but considering DCC it should be more robust.
There is a plethora of factors to consider; rail causes resistance; Nickel Silver is 19x more resistant than copper, the type of wire is important; copper being the best for conductance and reduced Voltage Drop and there are many more factors. There have also been cases where impendence has caused loss of control above certain speeds as some motors and decoders have increased sensitivity over waveform distortion.
It could be even worse if you added devices to the "Bus Wire" for DCC Signal/Power but thankfully LocoNET covers that. So, bearing that in mind; from Rail to the "Bus Wire" a 2-3 amp wire/flex would suffice but a "Bus Wire" over a distance, connecting to many droppers, etc would need a thicker gauge and higher amperage rated cable/flex. In terms of Digitrax a 3 amp wire from the Rail to the BDL168 (dependant on distance of the cable/flex and length of track) would suffice, this reduces impedance, considers “double heading”, coach lighting and sound locomotives, only then requiring a higher gauge/amperage cable/flex for the common return ("Bus Wire").
You can terminate the “Bus Wire” by using a method with a terminator but Digitrax specifically does not recommend it at all. The principle thinking of a "Ring Main" is right but only in terms of it requires thicker gauge wire to power the appliances, to reduce the impedance and current draw (too much current, produces heat and then fire, if not careful), the same idea should be applied to layouts.
If you want to take full advantage of the 5 amps, without any problems over longer cables, I do suggest using a higher rated cable/flex. Majority of my wiring on my layout is Automotive wire, which is near enough double or triple the rating that is needed. I have from Rail to BDL168 is 3 amps and Common Return is the Brown cable of the “Twin and Earth” thus ensuring reduced Voltage Drop and Impedance. A company I use is PoleVolt which supply 100m reels at a reasonable price.
Hope that helps and not too much information overload.
Des
Hi Des,
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video.
I do understand your concern over the voltage drop over distance. As an ex helicopter electrical engineer, I do have a deeper understanding than most. However, it’s very easy to over engineer what is fundamentally, a hobby.
In the past, I have often lost sight of the aim, worrying too much over certain less important details. I mentioned about power districts, and having them, is a massive asset. They make power management much simpler and fault finding far easier. Furthermore, it’s also easy to check voltage at the rails should voltage drop become significant and adjust as necessary.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie,
You mention the problems that can occur when you have a full, unbroken bus, i.e. a signal sent to say a point motor traveling in both directions can arrive at the point at two different times. Would this not cause the points, to, say, open then close because of the two signals?
I don’t believe so but after talking to an electronics expert, the time delay can make a difference to the DCC signal to chips.
Hi All,
I noted your comment, it's to do with drawing current not so much with feed, I have a ring main to feed 12 dc the point draws from the least resistance, yes it is in theory feeding from both directions but it is the speed of light so on your 4 m x 2 m board it wont make any difference and this is also true for DCC on small layouts but on large layouts a ring main will not work all the time but it will most of the time, also all my lights & points are feed off the ring main with no problems. I have a separate power supply of 12 dc 10 amps that means it is able to feed 10 amps only when needed most times it would not be required to supply more than 1 to 2 amps, that's why they call them 'power supply'
Do you share links? I am interested in the shoe lace ferral & crimping tool, to use in keeping strands of wire tightly together. I use a wire length measuring meter to check remaining length of wire on spools!
The stranded wire frays into a mess, keeping it tight to begin with will help preventing getting poked by the individual strands! Great see how to buss wire track!
Best Regards.
Hi BBB8, you will find the links in the “More” tab. Listed there are many of my recommendations.
Regards Charlie
Thank you for the video - I have just found it. It is excellent, very concise and I wish I had found your videos earlier
I am a newcomer to layouts and I have found the thickness of the bus wire hard to come to terms with as opinions vary markedly from one source to another.
My layout is roughly 17ft by 8ft.
A lot of US sources say 12 guage(AWG) wire which is 2.05mm (0.0808inch) diameter and 3.31mm2 cross section area. How does your bus wire compare to this US opinion?
Unfortunately in Australia the wire is not labelled as AWG and the thickness labelled is quite confusing to a dummy like me around electrics.
I bought some Narva auto cable which is rated at 10amps for the feeders (1.13mm2) which equates roughly to AWG 16.5.
Would this be adequate as bus wire also or do I need to go bigger?
Also does it matter if the feeder wires are over engineered?
Thanks for letting me ramble - I hope it makes sense.
Hi Michael, that cable is more than adequate. 10 amps is a lot of current. I'll bet that your system is not outputting 5 amps and no, over engineering is not a problem except on your pocket.
I know my reply is a bit late, BUT you mention the signals for the decoder in the loco as getting echo signals when using a ring main type feed, What are your thoughts regarding the fact that this can still happen when not using a ring main, but can still receive echo signals from the adjoining rails from other droppers.
Hi Sam, I understand your point but I believe that the echo time would be so short that the impact would be minimal.
Hi Charlie. I have been enjoying your videos immensely, especially during this lock down period. The signal gantry one was good and I have a etched brass kit of a gantry to build. Before I start it however, I need to get an understanding of how these things wire up with Digitrax. Can you do a video of this please? I have 4 zones in my layout but I’m going to change that to six so I can run more than 2 trains at once.
That is quite a challenge Richard. Please view my video number 2.
It explains how the SE8C works if you need automation.
Regards Charlie
The reason solid wire is used in a house AC and multi stand wire in used for DC is AC current runs thru the center of the wire hence one large wire and DC current runs on the outside of wire hence many small wires.
Hi Carl, I was always lead to believe that solid core was for fixed cables and multi-core for cables which are mobile.
Hence an AC kettle cable, vacuum cleaner etc. are multi core.
Nonsense.
Hiya and thank you for a great video, warts and all plus answering so many of my questions. Next question, how could that system run a mimic board showing all the points and how they are set? Could that system show on a mimic board witch sections of track are in use?
Hi Steve,
That’s a simple question.
The point orientation can easily be duplicated especially if you use tortoise motors. You simply need an auxiliary switch to power the LEDs.
But to show the progress of a loco around the layout is for more difficult and requires block detection.
The wiring then becomes more complicated and the price of components is substantial.
Regards Charlie
Charlie; thanks for all of the great info that you supply in your videos. Quick question if I may. I operate with an MRC DCC system. On my new layout I'd like to add the DS74 quad controller. in various areas. What I cannot discern is whether I need anything in between my MRC system and the Digitrax device to make this work? Any advice? Cheers
Sadly I’m not knowledgeable on MRC but I believe that the DS74 could well require a LocoNet feed to signal the switching.
Little snap connectors are called Scotch Locks
Thanks Rich, regards Charlie
Another question Charlie, do you solder the tracks together with the fishplate. Or do you let the glue or pins hold the tracks together. I am using all second hand track. Many of them came with solder at the ends of the tracks. I’m planning on ditching the use track I have and buying all new code 83 track so I have all the same code. As it is now, there are some 100 and some 83. I don’t know what the lower code is but I’ll bet I have some of that too.
Hi RH, I never solder the fishplates. You loose the rails ability to expand and contract with changes in temperature.
Charlie, if you use a higher ampage flex like say 17 amp but only send say ten amps through it, will that affect the power to the track?
Yes, Phil, the voltage drop will be less. Regards, Charlie
After seeing this I split my large circular ring main at the far side opposite my DCC controller but I have a question. Do the DCC signals still run around the track in both directions as that is still a complete/joined circle or do you have a spilt in the track also?
Using electro frog points, tends to split the circuit anyway. If not, I would insert cuts out the far end. Regards Charlie Regards, Charlie
Can you tell me what you use to label your wires? I’ve a brother machine which I’ve misplaced?
It is also a brother printer. The details are in the show more tab. Regards, Charlie
Hi Charlie, thanks for the informative video, quick question, does the bus wire have to be directly under the tracks in question, as your theory regarding confusing signals could also be relevant here, if the signal is going round the bus AND the track (as both are live) if the bus wire is not directly under the track, it may come slower then via the track itself, will the signal become distorted or is it all lighting fast? many thanks. A
No, I don’t believe that it matters.
Hi Carlie; super enjoying your video as I am deciding what DCC system I'm hoping to use. One question regarding the wiring, you mentioned that because you had your points powered with a separate supply, but I only see the one supply coming in. Am I missing something?
Please take a look at video 175. That should explain better. Regards Charlie
I am building a small N gauge kit {3ft. by 6ft.} from Woodland Scenics. My question is about whether or not it is necessary to run a bus wire on such a small layout with 3 or 4 switches
No, I would just run all the cables back to a central hub. Regards Charlie
Do I just set up a DCS64 in each district and connected it to the drop wires that have been connected to each track enough to allow Digitrax to see where each loco is on the layout?
DS64 is not a power district item. You can power them from 12v dc via the socket at the back. They are designed to change points.
BDL168 allows block detection and requires a computer program to see where locos are.