Sony a7 IV Hack?! - Full Frame 4K60 (No Crop) Workaround Tested
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- Опубликовано: 30 сен 2024
- Testing the Sony a7 IV workaround for getting an uncropped 4K60 image when recording externally by upscaling 1080p. Does it really work?
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#sonya74 #4k60 #fullframe
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You fancy RUclipsrs and same day turnarounds ;) Took your advice and was working on a closer inspection of 4k or if it was an upscaled 1080? Great video from you guys! Loved it. Much respect. Thanks Gerald. Chris Helton CHphotovideo
What the fuck did you just say?
@@Justin-uc8sc He said: "You fancy RUclipsrs and same day turnarounds ;) Took your advice and was working on a closer inspection of 4k or if it was an upscaled 1080? Great video from you guys! Loved it. Much respect. Thanks Gerald. Chris Helton CHphotovideo"
Wait u guys don't know how to get a 4k60p full frame on the a7iv? Easy , wait for it. This actually works and u already knew about it. Here it does. , Speedbooster + canon ef lense = done, a 16mm ff lense would be ff but of course its not native. What will blow your mind even more is that if you don't use crop mode and use a speed booster you can get extra light for the subject and be able to drop the iso
@@rockmusicvideoreviewer896 hahaha
I'm changing my channel name to "Inspector Gadget"
inspecter? i hardler know ‘er!
I’ll show myself out.
That was great! Also your video production level on product shots is second to none, not even MKBHD with his robots, cinema lens, etc ...
Better would be ‘Gadget Inspector’😅
@@AndazVlogs beat me to it!!
… thx for sharing, you are great content creator! 🙏🏻 Your Edelkrone equipment is fantastic, best solution for motion control in a studio environment - perfect! 👍🏻
This proves how minute the actual differences are when you get to that level of clarity. We still don’t have any largely available 8K TV’s available so much if this is kinda pointless. I understand that many are recording now, for the future technology.
Iphonedo is such a beaut! Subscribed.
Another "hack" I tried at home on the A6400 is set the camera at 4k24, and hdmi out as 50/60p so I can see UHD 59.94 signal on the recorder. The image quality is the same as internal 4K, HOWEVER, it is not ture 60p signal. The camera just wrap the 24p sign into 60p then send it to the recorder. It's very visible when slow the 60p footage down to 24. In conclusion, the sensor can ONLY use one readout mode. And aparendtly, 4K24 at full frame is all we can get from the sensor.(Maybe we can dream about 7K24 external someday??)
For what it's worth, if you set the HDMI to 60p, you'll get a little less monitoring latency which will make the external monitor feel more responsive.
This was dope, I got hype for a second tho.. really did..
In another universe Gerard is in the mcu
the sensor cant read 4k60p full frame, the end.
its not software crippling, the sensor simply cant read the whole sensor 60 times a second.
I love seeing you both in the same video, because your enthusiasm on camera tech can be seen clearly on your faces.
A7IV boys felt vindicated for not going a7s3 and then let down all in one full swoop lol.
People who bought the A7IV literally dont care about the crop. I promise you.
Doesn't matter, the A7iv is still sharper than the A7S3 below 12800 ISO. But rolling shutter though... man the A7iv is a complete letdown.
I only wanted a 4k 24fps camera with flip out screen and good autofocus :)
All I could afford was the IV, the a7s3 is like 3,500 with a lens.
@@professionalpotato4764 yh its pretty bad,think its even worse than the a7iii
Ten minutes of 4k30 is 10GB..... Why are people trying to shoot 4k60? You're not likely producing anything that "ACTUALLY" needs that much. The files would be outrageous in the long run.
Resolution and frame rate dont determine file size. Bitrate does. A 4k video could be 35Mbps or it could be 4500Mbps. Thats what determines file size.....
that being said, a lot of us get paid and use 4k60 all the time. Stop talking out your *sshole buddy..... just because you dont use it doesnt mean you need to get your undies in a bunch.
You could have also compared it to 4K30, as that’ll give 4K resolution full frame for the test purposes.
Was surprised they didn’t do this, seems most obvious
For those non-software engineers out there calling this a conspiracy/coverup/hidden feature...sorry no, it's just a bug in the software mislabeling the actual video mode.
This is great! My A7IV got delivered today so I was really excited when I saw the title. Thanks, Gerald and CHphotovideo for testing such things. Great video
So does it work or not.
It's just a 1080 binned sensor read. The Image processor is only getting 1080 raw read from the sensor A/D converters. This is an "on-sensor" photosite bin. So there is nothing that the image processor can do about it.
Dude, I don't usually comment on yt vids. But I felt I needed to say how I feel. You have to be one of, if not the best for reviews on camera gear. You go so indepth and give such detail it blows my mind. If I ever want to know about something I hit your channel first. You're damn good at what you do man. You've came a long way and I've been here for most of the ride. Just wanted to drop a comment and tell you how great your vids are man. Keep up the great work. I'll be a sub as long as you keep making vids. #longlivegeraldundone
The A7 IV sensor is too slow to do 50/60 fps, the readout time was around 24 ms when I measured it. This still means the crop could be reduced to around 1.2-1.25x in 50p and 1.25-1.3x in 60p but that's up to Sony engineers to maybe do it as a firmware update
They can squeeze some speed if they use pixel binning but 7K is not the resolution for that... They will get 3.5K 60p.
@@SimeonKolev true and that would also be better than what they offer now
max 41.67 frames per second if youd do a full frame readout
What's the readout time in APS-C crop?
It would be nice to have the option to choose between 1.5x crop 60 and 1.
If it doesn't work then why do you show it to me...🤦♂️
I want a same level camera OF Sony IV …but with 4k 60 fps FULL FRAME….2500 euros….i don’t know witch i have to choose
Saw this being talked about on Facebook today and thought, “let me beat Gerald to the punch making the video” and, well, here I am, you beat me to the punch 😂😂
You should try out 1080p in aps-c mode with clear image zoom on. It does give a 2x crop but the 1080 that comes out of it has no discernible difference between 4k. It’s crazy. I feel like the A7IV has so many secrets that have yet to be revealed haha.
I have heard of this secret… I will definitely give this a shot.. A lot of hidden gems but it might be Sony’s way of getting around the limitations of the camera…Without actually stating it.. and I also wonder how it would look in HDMI only output mode
Really interested to see your take on the R5c.
This is like the A7s tweak that gives you 4K in crop mode (clear image zoom from full frame) :) but kinda reversed...
In the end I think that you better shoot 1080 in camera and upscale with Topaz or something to 4K, because this 4K60p tweak does not work.
The question is whether we do 4K 30 oversampled from 7 k and slow down 2x via Topaz Video Enhance’s Chronos feature or take 1080p 60 and use Topaz Video Enhance’s upscaling high quality Artemis algorithm instead. One is more detailed footage but artificially slowing it down is both time consuming and may have artifacts. The latter is less processing, the camera did take 60 real frames a second so no artifacting, but footage may not be as detailed. Hm….
Thanks for doing this test! I have an A7IV, and I'm to lazy to test this... you don't have one, and still figured out a way to test it! And iPhonedo is awesome, so thanks to him too!
I doubt that Sony will do a firmware update for 4k 60 as the camera can overheat even in 4k 30, so there is no solution and I don't see any rumors about an up and coming A7v.
I guess what we can take away from this… is the the 1080 they gave us isn’t that bad, definitely got an upgrade that we should be happy with 😁
I was hoping this would actually work! But thanks for doing the tests!
Never click on a video so fast.
I clicked the thumbnail at 60 frames per second instead of the usual 24p..
Was a bit surprised when I saw this video title, but completely unsurprised by the result/conclusion. Thanks for keeping us in the loop!
Does the Ninja V unlock ProRes Raw on the A7IV??? I NEED TO KNOW!!!
Cripple hammer, SONY is worthy now, LOL
4K? More like POOR-K! #dadjokes
This is why I use micro43. I was hoping GH6 was getting 4K60 with PDAF to dual SD, but they skipped PDAF and ended dual SD. So maybe the OM-1 is an option going forward. As my G9's AF is bad.
No dual recording on the OM-1
@@kifley19 what do you mean surely the OM-1 records that 4k60 h265 10bit 4:2:0 to both se uhs-2 cards at the same time.. right..
I'm confused, 4k60 on m43 only happens because of the heavy crop... You can't do anything on m43 without a heavy crop
Always appreciate informative videos like these! Based on how severe the rolling shutter is on the A7IV, I had my doubts that the 4K60 crop was some sort of snake oil artificial limitation. However, it's nice to see these sorts of ideas being investigated even if the outcome isn't all that unexpected!
''Based on how severe the rolling shutter is on the A7IV'' all the other FF camera in that price bracket have similar rolling shutter in 4K30 but on the A7iv you can get really good rolling shutter if you shoot in APSC mode.
@@JetBen555 If we're talking value, the Sigma fp, Panasonic S1 and S5, the Nikon Z7 and Blackmagic Pocket all offer the possibility of RAW video at that price point. I don't purchase a full frame camera to shoot cropped APS-C!
@@JonPais I don't really see the point of your comment, I was not talking about value at all. Just pointing out the *fact* that other Full Frame camera at that price point have similar rolling shutter as the A7iv in Full Frame 4K30. (despite the fact that they all have lower MP sensor)
But I will bite
You need an external recorder to get ''Black Magic Raw'' (which is not Raw) on these camera ... soo how can u even talk about ''Value'' when you actually need to invest several hundred dollars more AND carry a Fking big a$$ monitor all the time to get additional features from your shitty camera with terrible rolling shutter in full frame 4K ?!
Also, comparing the Blackmagic ''Pocket'' camera to the A7iv is just laughable. It's a huge beast, it dies in 30 minutes unless you mount a huge V mount battery. The footage don't even look that good and doesnt offer much in term of flexibility in post (compared to SLog3 10bit), it has no stabilization or auto focus, its really not comparable, outside of the price.
@@JetBen555 Sure, Ben. Few other cameras at that price point have as severe rolling shutter as the Sony. Few other cameras at that price point lack RAW capability. When you talk about price point, you are talking about value. Look it up, Ben.
@@JonPais No, price point mean similar Price and that's all.
My a7 IV arrives on Monday. As far as I'm concerned I'm totally ok with the 4K60 in Crop mode because if I going to shoot video I generally use my Fujinon MK len (is only APC) that parafocol and no breathing. Hey, I'm 62 and you need a cine lens to shoot the video I shoot. I love that all of these creative people make DSL glass work but it doesn't work for me. WHat the saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks...LOL
Dang I was really excited I'd be able to use my a7iv as a 50p b cam without crop! Good test
i been for the past 5 months so unhappy with my Sony 7iv; this 4K crop is killing me, I wish they can do some firmware updates and fix this problem or release a new camera
what is the dynamic range of this camera in 4k 50 or 60p crop mode.
I have seen youtubers like matti haapoja and Chris Brockhurst say that the sony 10-18 lens is an amazing lens for sony in crop mode like the a7iv.
I am very interested in knowing the dynamic range of this a7iv in apsc mode and knowing how much I lose vs the full frame
This video is the perfect balance of entertainment and information
I'm trying to output 4K30 to the Ninja and is not taking it, I must have something weird on my camera, Ninja always sees 60
Since you mentioned HD exported in 4K on RUclips. Funfact: If you put HD 24/30fps in a timeline and exported it in HD 48/60 it gets a better codec and bitrate from YT than 4K 24/30. Sadly nobody seems to know that.
That's because YT makes this stuff a dicking nightmare to figure out, for reasons unknown even to them
What about 4K48 versus 4K24?
If you upload something in 4K to RUclips, it will get encoded to AV1 and VP9.
1080p and lower gets encoded to H.264 and VP9.
The audio gets encoded to AAC and opus. Opus usually gets served along with VP9 / AV1 video.
@@Knowbody42 beautiful worth info, explain us more pls
@@Knowbody42 I've uploaded 1080p60 and 1440p60, only the 1440p60 uploads get a VP9 encode (AVC comes first, VP9 after some time) for 1080p60 streams.
Great Video. This builds a better community, it's all about trial and error. I like it when people don't shame others for trying out and investigating things, because that's how you learn!
Is the 4k output to a ninja V the same downsampled 7k from the sensor? If not
Then maybe that’s why 4k 60 cropped internal looked better than 4k ninja v?
Wait, so just to make things clear cause I'm a bit confused: does it all mean that if I want to record 4k60 (or 4k50 in my case) with my Sony A7IV + Ninja V I should record the file internally to the SD card and treat the Ninja just as a monitor because otherwise I will end up having a 1080p file upscaled to 4k on the AtomX SSD? And if so, this eventually leads to the conclusion that using the Ninja V as a recorder only works if we record 4k24/25 - am I correct?
For live streaming at 4k60 having it in-body is nice! That said, i'd rather obv have real 4k60 hdmi out... Struggling to find a good option for this
Great video Gerald. Glad iphonedo was able to help. Turned out great.
Here's my question, why does the crop matter? Just use a wider lens and you'll have less chance of vignette and less barrel distortion issues...
C'mon Gerald, you know what we want... We want 2018 Gerald back with a review of the OM-1 and the GH6, please.
I just discovered this today for live-streaming application … I’m going to use this semi 4K setting for all my live streams… A note of caution though, if you are using a 4K pro 60 capture card in the #3 or last slot pci slot on your motherboard…This will not work because the bandwidth is only 4x on older z490 chipset motherboards.. You’ll need to use the pcie slot next to your Gpu with live streaming.. If using this method on an older 10th Gen Intel or Z490 chipset, you’ll end up using half of the lanes (8x) that your graphics card is using.. Since I added a dual fan rtx 4070 12Gig, I had no issues as long as I’m using it as my streaming PC to stream a Live DJ set on twitch.. For gaming this may not be an issue since most gamer use 1080p for their streams but I would assume your games would look better if you are gaming on a 4K rig… But for zoom and corporate live steaming of DJ sets, The 4k60p setting works well even when streaming on zoom.. It’s night and day difference…And the best part is that the camera never overheats if using a dummy battery without internal recording and only feels warm to the touch.
“I’m Gerald Undone.
My output is G U Nits.”
what skin grip do you have in the camera?? that handle texture looks wild.
You could have just compared it to true FF 4K30 I think, the fps difference is not important to check if it's scaling the frame.
Exactly what I was thinking...The A7iv isnt cropping 4k 60fps to 1080p, its still 4k. Couldnt they just put the camera on a tripod, connect Atomos Ninja V, shoot a short clip in 4k 24fps and shoot another clip 4k 60fps then compare?
I was curious bout this too. But i guess since bitrates change between 4k60 and 4k30 it may not be apples to apples
great video thanks! do you know the max output quality over HDMI in stills mode on the a1? i want to take photos while recording to an atomos but don't have the atomos to test yet.
How does the A7IV preform with the Atomos Ninja V for normal usage settings? I know it doesn’t support raw, but can it still record regular pro res in 4K?
The ninja performs wonderfully! Not had the a7IV long enough for a full run but on the surface it's great. It will record 4k 24/30/60, albiet the 60fps is super35. I was recording ProRes 422 in 4k. Both 'true' 4k and the upscaled 4k example in the video.
Now we can sleep 😁 mystery solved👍
Hey thanks for all the great videos... QQ: I'm looking all over and can't find whether the A74 can record directly to an external SSD drive... possible?? Thanks!
heyyy if you use a speedbooter on 60p, 1.5 crop wit thespeedbooster will be 1.2 crop?
Wow, thank you for the video! I was already considering buying an external monitor, but now I don't need to. Thanks!
yeah its just Upscaled the HD 1080 ,. But what if you Set the a7iv to 4k 25p? then ATOMOS Ninja V Monitor is UHD50 uncropped. It will work for Ninja V as 4K 50 right?
Guys any chance you can answer this..... If you have it set to 4k AVCH @140mbps and the output set to 2160p is the ninja still recieiving a clean output?
Great video great test can't wait to get the a7iv
so it's not the camera recording it's using the camera as a webcam and then ninja 5 it's like 600 dollars and it's recording through the HDMI it's not really a hack. just like the old GoPro 5 blacks they did 4K out of the HMI output.
Would it assist in the workflow if you upscale in external recorder and sharpen in post to clean up the 4K to look close to real 4K? Just wondering
great stuff! love the rigor with which you test this stuff!!
Gerald out here using a full ballin ass Video Rig just to prop up his phone. Madman.
So True....👌
The A74 is the biggest disappointment in the camera industry since the …… …..fill in the black
Both of you guys are hugely underrated
I don't have the camera and I'm not interested in the topic, but it was so much fun to see you two in the same video (again). Cheers guys! :)
Why can't you just zoom out to get the required angle. Like, if you want 55mm just shoot it in 36mm.
Thank you for video 👌
iPhonedo is the best Sony reviewer.
The real question is WHY doesn't Gerald Undone own a Sony A7IV? Chh.
What a second I thought an over sharpened image gives you worse quality.
Gerald is so undone , he forgot to review the
OM SYSTEM OM-1
lol if the engineers at Sony says it does x it doesn't do y, it just does x. Only Tesla's have hidden features...
Ciao Gerald! Did you try to turn off the internal recording and record only on the ninja?
Well, can't say I didn't see this result coming.
Hi, love your videos, very detailed explanations.
Would be possible for you guys to test this on the A7IV
Film in 4K60fps SS250 then reduce to 25% speed in resolve using Optical flow and Speed warp and compare it to A7SIII or FX3 120fps.
If Sony A74 just stick with 24mp, there would not be any crop necessary for 4K60P. 33MP and 24MP doesn’t give too much different in terms of the quality but too much has to compromise for the bump in resolution.
the APS-C crop is ~14.2MP, at 4608x3072, so not 24MP
Regarding ther merc link, where is the "Get UNDONE" tee? =)
Is the A7IV just 4K software limited?
The "alright I'm done" from Edo was awesome haha
Great video! very click baity thumbnail Gerald! lol
In my opinion, it is meaningless. Because Ninja V is not a cheap choice, ahah.
Gerald una consulta, en el modo 4k 60 fps 1.5 crop se ve afectado el rango dinámico por tener un tamaño más pequeño de sensor.
Porque si no se ve afectado el rendimiento de rango dinámico se derriba el mito de que el sensor apsc tiene menos rango que el Full frame
If you had to buy a hybrid camera today.
A1, R5C, R3 or Z9
A1 would actually be my favorite at this point but the tiny cards:(
I guess you use the atomos in the studio but this isn’t really the best option if you want a small setup for run and gun shooting.
I think I prefer the R5 to the R5C. I don't see the R5C as an upgrade. It's more of a sidegrade, with some more video features, but less other kinds of features.
I put one of those copper heatsinks from Kolari Vision in my R5, and that does a lot to prevent overheating when doing video.
@@Knowbody42 you’re a knowbody!
Thanks:)
Gerald just crushed this guys dreams
Not claiming clairvoyance here, but this one was pretty easy to call all the way through. From the "I bet it's some twiddly Ninja-V thing"...to "not possible, A7IV's sensor is too slow, which is why there's a crop and why rolling shutter is prevalent in the first place." Cool video though. I'll have to check out that other channel.
Hello Gerald, I got lost... Did you try comparing the internal 1080 60p with the UHD 60p downscaled to 1080p? Does it gate any sharpness improvement?
Big hug from Chile
So, it can't really do UHD 60fps without the crop, it's just 1080p 60fps upscaled to UHD. So if you do that, it's basically just being upscaled and then downscaled again.
But if you're talking about the real 4K 60fps mode (which is cropped), then you often get a sharpness improvement, as long as it's a good quality encode.
Thank you! I was just wondering if you upscaled through the Atomos to 4k and then scaling down back in post, may add a little crisp. I understand is the same going up and down, but I was just curious. Have a good night!
According to Gerald's Alpha 1 review, the A1 recording 40k60p with the Super35 crop produced a sharper image than 4k60p Full Frame, so I don't get how his test in this case is definitive since even if it was true 4k60p, the super35 4k would be sharper...
Super35 oversampled from 7k to 4k and true 4k is oversample from 5.1k. More resolution, more details.
@@360fullhd that's what I meant, so in either way the super35 would have been sharper... you cannot conclude that just because the super35 image is sharper, then the other image must not be 4k.
TLDR - no it doesn't work? Asking for friend.
Nice work A team
I HATE having 4k60 crop. Made the lenses I have to be so difficult. I also shoot real estate and there hardly any good quality lenses for crop sensor ultra wise (I like zooms)
If you shoot 4k 60 real estate you should try 10-18 f4. It’s apsc but 4k 60 gives you crop like apsc mode so you won’t loose quality anyway
Thank you for the video guys!!!
OMG! Why would you not compare 4k30 wit h 4k60. That would have been simpler to see if it was the same quality
Because of the crop.
ok nice but your teeth are now 4k60p ultrawhite
I think the most interesting thing is that people struggle to judge if a video clip is 1080p or 4K when filming a static test chart(!) with perfect focus, lightning and pixel peeping the two images side by side.
Should I buy a Sony A7IV or BMPCC 6k Pro as a Music Video Director and Some Comercial works? I’m really use to have my Camera on a gimbal almost all the time and i really love Sony Auto Focus but idk if I will need that extra 6k quality and internal filters of bmpcc 6k pro… there is a lot of good cameras on the market rn for an affordable price and it’s kinda confusing select one! Pd: I need to buy good lenses so that’s why I can’t afford Sony A7SIII
Gerald Undone! I really had to laugh when you stated again that you hadn't purchased the a7iv, even though you had given it glowing reviews earlier. Of course not, why should you when the unspoken elephant in the room--OVERHEATING and Eye Auto Focus haven't been solved yet and probably never will be. After all, Sony has moved on with the A1 in advance and is moving to new uncharted territory.😎
Hello,
Great video! Just a question about your Sony A7IV on your left. Is it a dummy battery connected to the camera ? If yes, is it a good solution for alimentation ? and for overheating ? There isn't problem using it ? Wish brand are you using ? Thanx!