ICOC Series: When the church controls romance (a cautionary tale)
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- Опубликовано: 24 янв 2023
- Follow Richard on IG @themelaninson Ladies, he said his DM's are OPEN! wink*wink
And search for his podcast: The Real Boy Podcast ( podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast... )
"Looked at as struggling, sinful, and doomed from the start because you went against advice." This is the fear that so many carried.
"The purpose of this series, it is not to attack, it is not to convince ppl to leave. It really is to give ppl who are hurting a voice and to put words to the feelings that you may be having and help to bring about some healing. So that is the whole purpose and I'm glad we were able to do that in a personable way here. "
For those who didn't make it to the end yet. 😊
"Stripping me of anything that could be spiritual because you want me to appear a certain way." 🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯
A gross distortion of my actual personhood with the sole purpose of maintaining control “in Jesus’ name”.
It was one of the most heart-wrenching, pathetic, and just plain sad experiences.
What's so so sad is that this demonstrates how threatened this organization is by anyone having a positive self-image that isn't determined/dictated/allowed by them. And it happened all the time 😔. The reason you couldn't figure out what you did wrong was because there was nothing wrong (as you now know). Approval is reserved for those who figure out the secret of giving over all autonomy and identity in the name of humility. Thank you Rich for sharing your story.
I'm really so grateful for his honesty and vulnerability.
Giving up is key. I decided for the love God myself and family that I will NEVER be that humble.
Ever.
Wow. This made me cry. Richard I know we haven't spoken in years but you were always such a great person. I left ICOC a couple of years ago and I'm still healing and processing all of things I experienced. Thank you for sharing this so transparently. I'm sorry you went thru this
I’ll be honest when I first started watching I didn’t really understand why you guys decided to have this conversation in public but seeing this through to the end I’m floored by the level of grace, accountability, humility and overall love for one another you all have. Really inspiring truly!❤
lol I SO appreciate your comment. This one is a slow build. I so badly wanted to give a summary in the beginning to 'hook' people, but I wanted Richard to be the one to tell the story and in his way. As so many people are thinking about reconciling relationships that this organization has severed, I'm hoping this conversation could serve as a bit of an example......and I ALSO wanted people to see that the systems in place really hurt people on a very personal level. This is people's LIVES that we're talking about.
I'm glad you saw it through to the end and that it did what we intended it to do.
Thank you so much, Richard, for sharing your story! And Nikieta, your vulnerability and emotion towards the end… whew, girl you took me there too. Please know you are certainly meeting your goal of validation and community with these videos. As a result of this series, I've really been reflecting so much on my time in the ICOC (30 years), and in particular, my time in Hampton Roads (5 years). In doing so, I've also been sending out apologies and literally sent one a few days ago to a past close friend that I "built with" and did very similar things to him that "Brittany" did as a direct result of advice (aka marching orders) from the leaders.
Throughout the last few weeks, the biggest root that has become very evident as I dissect my heart and mind is just how much I allowed myself to put the leadership’s views, advice and opinions above God's. This led me to following man and not the Holy Spirit in both my heart and actions. As I’ve been going back through my old prayer journals, it has become so evident to me that as soon as I moved there, my sinful people pleasing nature immediately took a deep dive into being consumed with caring about how I was viewed by leadership. This directly affected how I made decisions in general, but also within his and I's friendship. Instead of praying for the Holy Spirit to lead us, I asked God to make things evident through leadership because I was so convinced that was what I should be doing. No matter how much I might have disagreed with a piece of advice, I would follow it blindly 99% of the time so I wouldn’t get in trouble and instead be seen as good and obedient in the eyes of the leaders. Based on some of the advice I received and followed, I can’t imagine how this ended up stiff arming that brother as a result, even if that’s the last thing I wanted to be doing. 16 years later, and several therapy sessions later, the amount of "what ifs" that can still plague my mind about that relationship is absolutely mind boggling, because I'll never know what could've been if I would've turned to guidance from God vs man. Even if the end result would have still been us not being together I'd at least have peace and closure about it because I'd be confident it was truly God's doing; not to mention that brother and I probably would've also had a healthy discussion about things ending as well as opposed to hacking everything at the knees without any sort of explanation to each other.
Cheryl 😭😭🫂🫂 I know only very vaguely of this situation (I think). That's very hard. I'm so sorry. I think also of all the people who were forced to break up w their significant others just in order to get baptized. So many broken hearts 💔 "in the name of God".
I'd definitely love to catch up some time if you're interested. You can reply on FB lol.
Fun fact: Rich actually helped me studied the bible for a brief period and I was with him at the GACC (The Path) at this time. Thank y'all for sharing your experiences. My wife.and I left the ICOC a year ago. But we never left God. The trauma I went through was basically partly because of my experiences in Atlanta at the GACC. That was back in 2014-2015. And til this day, I'm still trying to heal. Sisters misunderstood me and lead my ex to leaving me and being rude to me for no reason. Basically, I felt like the church pandered to women more than holding the men accountable. Some of the events that I experienced down there almost drove me to commit suicide to be honest. But, nevertheless I'm here.
So sorry for your experience. Experienced something similar except in the Chicago church. Hoping your healing from your pain
Keita, please let the names be heard. Those responsible needs to come face to face with the ugliest they’ve caused.
1- The RUclips community guidelines have some verbiage around naming people in instances like this, and I don't want the video to be taken down or our account flagged in any way for misconduct. That would hinder the message from being spread.
2- Unfortunately, in situations like this, some people can act maliciously toward those who are named, and while I DO want them to be held accountable...I do NOT wish harm or danger toward anyone.
3- I appreciate your passion *hug*
Niketa and Rich, thank you so much for sharing your hearts and experiences. There were so many places where I had to just pause the video and process it, pulling back tears, because it was bringing up memories of my last 15-16 years of experiences in HRC. This area of dating is especially hard for me because of the situations I dealt with in both of my dating experiences, which went very different in the post-breakup support I got, yet had some major overlap in the pre-dating and dating stages. There is so much I've deconstructed, ways I've tried to "be the change" and build bridges, but it's getting harder to believe in that anymore. The more I reflect on my own stories and those of others, like yourselves, it just brings up so many memories and things, like my struggles with ableism (as I now have an ADHD diagnosis, and suspect I may also be autistic, which oddly enough may have been a major part of the issues in my most recent relationship as well) and "drinking the kool aid" with other people's opinions, like Niketa says. I've known the issues with my most recent dating experience (5 years ago) and my religious trauma are intricately linked, but I'm now realizing how much I need to get therapy for this. Thank you for providing space for these conversations. It gives me hope that one day there may be reconciliation with some people in some really hard areas. Your vulnerability gives me the space to be vulnerable too.
Thank you so much for sharing this. This was a needed experience to open our eyes and be validated. It's crazy because I have a similar story that I had hoped was a unique situation. So I remember visiting the church in DC with some HRC singles and having a blast. Similarly, I felt comfort because the culture was very much the same as Hampton Roads Church. The preaching was more so closer to what I grew up with so I was loving it. The brothers and sisters there were super warm and loving. They brought me in on a Bible study with a guy we met at church. It was great. Specifically, the brother that hosted me and other friends was the best host. Definitely felt like this is what Jesus would want a host to be. A great time and the food was awesome!lol After that, we came up several times and it was great! It felt like this is our family. We were learning from one another and building deep connections. Long story short, someone from HRC was interested in someone from DC(super vague right lol), so they reached out to me. I had nothing but positive experiences and information to share and was super excited about it. They mentioned they were reaching out because leaders in HRC were sharing red flags. They ended up ending the relationship and are happy in the relationships they ended up in(praise God). The sad part is that HRC leaders were ok with slandering the DC church and that brother, but I see this happened in Atlanta as well, slandering the brother. I remember being so flabbergasted with the red flags being shared, like have they ever been there before because this information is very erroneous 🤔These situations really do break my heart. Unfortunately, the system is still in place. A leader outside of HRC shared with me to not let the leaders write my story. That message is not just for me but for everyone. Continue to share your stories, so that we know what ACTUALLY occurred. Unfortunately, if you don't share, we'll most likely get a version of.. sin overwhelmed you and you had to go 🤷🏽♂️.. That comvinces us to continue to operate under the influence. Love you guys! Prayers that leaders can repent, so the churches they lead can transform as well. Not a few tweaks but a hard reset. God is powerful and can transform a willing heart at any moment. 🙏🏽 Again, thank you Rich for sharing! We gotta invite you over to create more happy moments in Hampton Roads. Sorry that was your experience brother.
I cried right along with you both. Thank you for being willing to be vulnerable and share your experiences.
🫂🫂🫂😭😭😭❤️❤️❤️
TW: My reaction contains cuss words.
I made a list in order of the flow of the video…cause I’m nerdy and studious like det
Rich reminds me of KevOnStage
1. The churches in the south are generally thought of as weaker compared to the ACR because we were always booked, busy and boasting about it.
2. His status said everything right until he mentioned his Brown skin. His Brown skin made him prideful and arrogant, especially after George Zimmerman was legally rewarded for being a “neighborhood watchman.”
3. Underhanded prayers….I couldn’t help but call those out each time I felt it. Because God is not in you to be coming out of your mouth like THAT with THAT over me and my spirit.
4. 48 hours of restlessness and anxiety when you still got other shit to do ANYWAY, like pay bills. Yeah:
5. Stories shared become vulnerability that is weaponized. The brother critiquing his messages…triggered a moment where I was vulnerable to a leader and she agreed with the shady individual in my story about my “character,” with no fucking context. (Yeah I’m still healing). Simply because I stood up for myself, I was prideful=in sin.
6. Is it wise to be posting your thoughts on social media??? Nah is it WISE for YOU to be a surveillance camera via social media????
7. Strong people are invited in to be weakened and tokenized and broken DOWN. Rich is not a weak man, and I don’t even know him. But back in the day he was strong AND needed to be a broken in buck to be approved by HRC leadership.
8. Mountains were consistently made out of molehills. Easily triggered individuals always feeling the need to “discipe, correct, and rebuke.” Everyone else is always insecure EXCEPT them.
9. Ok Rich has ALL the right energy😂😂😂. I took leaders off my page starting in 2019 and finally in 2021 - because they serve no other purpose but to be surveillance and PI for the church. Byeeeeee.
10. I’m so excited for this brother that I don’t even know for healing and living in his truth in spite of the slander and gossip.
I've always felt like Rich resembled KevOnStage, but don't tell him that lol.
I too felt like trash, thrown away as a Mother. This interview is LIFE SUPPORT
Cheryl: We will always love you. I have also looked back and thought what would life be if I would have discussed this with your day and we made the decision with you guys at the time. I’m so disappointed in myself and how I too allowed men to guide my decisions for my family but God is still sovereign and He’s bringing things to the light. Hopefully, a true repentance in the HRC church will finally take place and rid the sins at the root. It’s time for HRC to have the sin study and write their sin list .
❤️❤️❤️
Love you and your family so so much and miss you all terribly. You guys will always hold a very special place in my heart. I still cherish all the holidays you guys took me in for while I was down there away from my family. Thank you for your response - It's so comforting to know that I'm not the only one who lives with what ifs about that situation. Praying for the church and for the systematic repentance that is needed.
Watching this video and reading the comments made me realize i know alot of you and im glad some of us made it out the icoc.
I remember you! I'm glad you made it out. Hope you're doing ok and enjoying freedom.
HRC’s new slogan should be “The Hub of Trauma”
It's fitting. There should be t shirts 😂
Thank you for sharing this! It just took me back to my experience as a single woman(never dated!) but the brothers was peeping 👀haha but the control over how single, professional, adults needed to date, who we should like, etc..I still til this day have to work through the idea that I spent 10yrs of never dating, feeling like something was wrong with me, load of insecurities, doubt about self due to the control!
OMGGGGGG HIS interview has been amazing. You two are amazing human beings. When he said he could not fight THE MACHINE AND HE CRIED FOR A YEAR I COULD RELATE. I too had to know that satan is the author of CONFUSION. THE SUDDEN AND LONG LASTING GHOSTING, SILENCE IS HEART BREAKING BUT THE WAY YOU TWO EXPLAINED THE MACHINE IS SO HELPFUL FOR HEALING. THANK YOU😊
Boom! “Free will” was promised! And it was taken away! This the one!
Wow. As soon as you said "Rich" and "Atlanta", I KNEW. Had me doing the "Leonardo DiCaprio sitting on the couch pointing at the TV" meme when I saw Rich's face lol. We were in the same ministry together back then. It was a bit surreal hearing him recount this story. I was a few months away from leaving GACC and the ICOC at the beginning of this story, and I'm fairly certain it was my salsa class that he was referring to. This story hits home for me because I was in Brittany's shoes when it comes to my now wife; she is a Christian but was not affiliated with the ICOC. I'd been given the advice to back off from her when she decided to discontinue her Bible studies. I initially broke things off with her, but came to my senses when I realized I was about to miss out on one of the best things (person, rather) to ever happen to me (it only took me a weekend). This of course lead to my ICOC exit. But I have to wonder if my wife felt the same way Rich did during that time.
We left that place or entity a long time ago. We have been on our healing journey for a long time from all the toxicity. We have you guys in our thoughts so proud you were able to free yourselves
Bro, I’m so sorry you went through that. Man, this is from God’s people! We got to make this right!!
This was really heartfelt and relatable! It helped better articulate specific things I went thru. Thank you!! I was in a splinter group of ICOC.
The ICC?
@@lotusjumpingspider8761 BACC
BACC in SF, CA? I would love to hear about your experience. I have a lot of questions and concerns.
@@annemariecruz6162 I’d love to share and help in any way possible. How can I reach you?
My Goodness. I had to pause this a few times because my husband and I have a similar story. Leadership called and tried to stop him from proposing to me like 15mins beforehand. Among other things…I appreciate the disclaimers you always give because I definitely had some frustration, anger, guilt..all the things pop back up. we also had a friend of ours had the exact same thing happen to him while trying to pursue a sister in Richmond. Im so glad to hear you two have repaired your friendship. The vulnerability in your videos have really helped me heal from the toxicity of the organization that has impacted me. And i hope all who come across these videos get peace and understanding on their healing journey as well. Thank you queen❤️
I'm so glad he went through with the proposal!! ❤️❤️ Also, so happy that hearing these stories is helping you heal 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼😘😘😘
I was a member of ICOC in the early 90's and first brought to the church branch in Chapel Hill, NC by a very kind couple who had a medical practice in Durham. I was immediately placed with the "singles", done the studies, eventually was baptized. (On the day I was baptized I was trying to take out trash for my elderly Aunt, and was "angrily reprimanded" in the car by a "discipler" for doing that and being late for baptism. The first red flag...) Over the years I learned it was about pleasing people not God. Tithing was forced. Going to singles retreats was forced even if you couldn't afford it. (I had to borrow money from my discipler and pay it back). Dating was a farce. Only the attractive were asked out. It was no different from the world in my eyes. There was nothing spiritual about it. I seen the way people were treated when they "fell away". I didn't want to get treated the same way. They came to my job when I left. I remember visiting the church after and got the "shunned treament". Only one man treated me with love and kindness and I will never forget him. He was truly Christ like. Was the ICOC a cult? I'd say yes. A utopian cult that tried to be perfect. It was so far from it.
There was a church in NC? It must’ve shut down cause now DC ICC is planting a church in Raleigh, NC. I was a part of the check in August 2022 and it was just a remanent group. I had no idea they had a church here
I relate to Rich's experience on so many levels. I cannot express the amount of times I've been interrogated or rejected when it came to pursuing (talking) to a disciple from a sister church (same church, different region). Literally, we're in the same family of churches, yet you're still an outsider. So much for one body. I was confronted and insulted because of how I kept my body in shape (accused of vanity and told that if I spent just as much time in the bible as I do my body, I'd be a great disciple), my tattoos and piercings, what job I had, if and/or what school I was going to, if I was aspiring ministry work, and so on. I had a facebook comment brought up once as a reason why I was a red flag, even though it was a friend who was complimenting my photo and made the comment himself. You can't even have others praise or have confidence in you without it being being deemed impure or prideful, as they consider it a reflection of you.
Back then, I was inrerested in a sister who was a young disciple (baptized/converted for a few months) and the evangelist at the time encouraged me to talk to the campus leader about it. The leader and I were already rocky because of how he treated me since we were teens, given his superiority complex of wanting to lord over others, but I wanted to take the advice and be respectful. The night before we left their campus we talked and I brought up how I liked this sister and wanted to get to know her more and date. He got silent then said "that's cool bro, let's pray and see what God says. Thanks for letting me know." Literally the next day we're driving back home after church and the sister called me saying how we can't be friends and talk anymore, even going far as to say that she won't be talking to my sibling too and that we're disinvited from her performance, but she'd honor her acceptance of being my date for an event. I know he slandered me and mocked up "concerns" of my character when everyone else at the ministry I was a part at the time had nothing but positive things to say.
I always found it ridiculous for people on leadership roles having control over legal adults wanting to get to know each other and/or date. If not date, just talking and being friends! I was judged if I didn't fit the culture, I was judged if I didn't have the right "modest, humble" appearance, I was judged if I didn't have "ministry training" when I simply wanted to talk to the person I liked. I have friendships ruined or lost because of terrible advice or gossip that amounted to nothing, just for them to say "See, God revealed it wasn't going to work." I'm fortunate and grateful it didn't happen with my wife and tried not to do the same to other guys while I lead for a brief time, but I saw how some of the questioning crept into my decision making for better or worse when it came to them wanting to date. It's not God putting it on their hearts to determine that people can/can't be together, it's ego and controlling actions. It's toxic and demoralizing.
😳😳😳😡😡😡😭😭😭😵💫😵💫😵💫 All emojis bc I don't even know what to say. It started off bad and just kept getting worse. Ugh. I'm so sorry you had to endure that. Stuff like that......is why I will not take my son there. It would not be good for me to address the person/people who tore down my son for being EXCELLENT and claimed it was in God's name.
@@nikietalambert @nikietalambert I have plenty of experiences since living on the East Coast. My family still recovering from it. Thank for creating a platform for others to speak along with your vulnerability and honesty. My wife put me on you and Asha's episode and I'm all for it. This' DeZavier by the way, thank you again.
@@DZADangerous I thought it might have been you but wasn't sure. That makes me so upset. So crazy we were all in the same circles enduring such abuse but no one REALLY talking about it. So glad your wife shared the video(s) with you! Give her a special hello from me. She's such a joy ☺️ I'm happy to have you here part of the discussion and am glad we are on the road to healing. I hope your sister's doing well ❤️❤️
@@nikietalambert Absolutely! It's sad that it goes under the rug, especially when you do bring it up or challenge it, you're labeled difficult or rebellious. We left and haven't looked back. I'll tell my wife hello for you! My sibling is doing well! They are enjoying life and working hard.
DeZavier! So sorry to read this happened I always loved your family and thought you were such a great guy!
I think that I had some similar experiences that Richard had, but I have on realised in the last few years and this story I think validates my theories on this.
Throughout my time in ICOC there had been many sisters I wanted to date, but I noticed that as I got closer to anyone of them, at some point they got weird with me and distanced themselves and basically avoided me. I used to think and was told by my dp that I was too intense or they simply weren't interested.
However, over the years since I discovered that the dp's said things to these women about me that seemed to put them off, even though I had done nothing wrong. I even heard that one told my perspective GF the SHE wasn't good enough for me and they even asked if I a recognised that the person I wanted to date was black!!!?
This situation made me very insecure around women (which as a teen when I started was already a challenge) but each time this made me more self conscious.
I know recognise that it wasn't me at all but the leaders deciding who I should or should not date and putting spanners in the works!
Omg literally jumping through fiery hoops
Hey sis, you’re doing nothing wrong. Let the names be heard. We need to call it out
You tryna get me caught up! 😂😂😂🤫🤫🤫
I appreciate you Ma'am
Been around for a while; I was in ATL for a bit as well. When I was there the ATL region of churches was pretty racially segregated. Angel had just gotten there. The bottom line is Richard was in the wrong ATL church. That region of the church wasn’t viewed as in alignment with the larger ICOC. It didn’t matter what he did; he was from the wrong region of the church. 😔
🎯 That part. I had always suspected that was a part of it as well. Anytime I would travel elsewhere (conferences, trips, etc.) people would ask where I was from. I would answer “Atlanta” and folks would automatically assume I meant North River. North River was clearly perceived as the legitimate Atlanta ICOC church at that time. It was disgusting.
@@richardsnipe2471 This comment is for Nikieta as well. WOW, I hope you don't mind...but I get this kind of icky but strong feeling that all these "leadership" interactions are laced with racism. Hmmm, "He seems so prideful?", "He's too involved with civilian affair's read Trevon Martin". What I it seems like (they) were bottom line saying was, "He's too black". What part of the Atlanta ICOC are you or were you in? Who was/is the leader of the North River Church? Ugh, I'm 57 min's in and can't take anymore! I was a member in the Boston/ICOC from 20-38. Left over 20 years ago. So, I've been out longer than you both and have also had much therapy. You both appear to dance around just saying what you need to say...almost like "leadership" is continuing to assess your every word and intention--I get it! But, most people will not. I just found your channel and so appreciate the real talk about the very very esoteric dynamics that exist in the ICOC, and sadly continue! (especially with "romance"). However, because ICOC dynamics ARE so esoteric it's very difficult to have the patience to sit thru an almost 2 hour video...and, I was a part of the ICOC so I get it! Your content is incredibly valuable and helpful - is there anyway you could make your videos shorter/more concise? I think the majority of people are not going to stay and listen beyond 20-30 minutes tops. Just some of my thoughts...again, hope you don't mind :) Praying we all can truly heal from the deceitful and deeply manipulative and destructive practices of the ICOC...they did a number on us, it takes so much work and tears to peal back all the layers!
@@richardsnipe2471 Dayum. I never picked up on that (I also didn't travel to a bunch of conferences either; I guess I was too busy going to salsa congresses instead lol), but I can totally see that being a thing.
@ijakadi To your point about the church in Atlanta being racial segregated: I moved back to Atlanta from Tallahassee maybe about a year before "The Letter" dropped. The Atlanta campus ministry was it's own separate ministry prior to it, so it was nothing but campus students from all the various schools in the area. After the letter, I suppose we lost our funding (I think money from the other ministries financed us) so we had to stop meeting in hotel ballrooms every Sunday, midweek, and Friday devo. They split us up to go with different ministries in the city, but it was really messed up to me HOW they split us up. All the schools that were mostly or almost completely white (Georgia State, Georgia Tech, Kennesaw State, etc) were handed off to ministries that matched that, and all mostly or all black schools (Morehouse, Spellman, Clark Atlanta, Atlanta Tech & Metro, Georgia Perimeter College) were shipped off to mostly or all black ministries. Maybe I was too naïve back then to have noticed anything prior to that, but that was the first time I'd witnessed anything that just stood out to me as racist in the ICOC. That move just didn't sit well with me because one of the things that originally impressed me about the ICOC was that the congregation was multi-racial (I get now that it was multi-racial but not necessarily multi-CULTURAL, and boy is there a difference), and I always felt like if Heaven isn't going to be segregated, Church shouldn't be, either.
@@LastPrinciples, wow! Multiracial is not the same as multicultural! Very good point! I think that’s what is missing, but I don’t know of many organizations that have been able to get that right either.
Look into Douglas Jacoby. Also, Douglas Arthur, Chris Reed.
But, now they call themselves nondenominational 🤔
Tamil rice was shot here in my home city
Of course if you talk about yourself it is prideful. They want you to praise the church.
Yall sound like yall Pentecostal Apostolic- PAW… im unfamiliar with ICOC but babeeeee. We have THE SAME types of experiences.
Aww 😣😣❤️🩹❤️🩹
I think this probably has to do with you coming from Atlanta. The HRC church has discouraged their members from dating someone that comes from a “struggling” church or a church that does not meet their standards. HRC probably has a negative opinion of the church in Atlanta. Then they started picking on you regarding the social media post. I know that the HRC has discouraged other members dating someone from other ICOC churches.