Do you Need an Expensive Groupset? Here are some Affordable Alternatives...
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- Опубликовано: 6 июн 2024
- Are top of the range groupsets like Shimano Dura-Ace Di2 and SRAM Red AXS with their high prices really worth the price? Can they really justify themselves when compared to more affordable gorupsets like 105 Di2 and Apex and Rival? I've been testing these more affordable groupsets and these are my conclusions.
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Content
00:00 Intro
1:00 Shimano affordable groupsets
5:19 SRAM options
7:56 Why buy an expensive groupset at all?
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It's not that you can't tell the difference while riding, it's that others can tell the difference while riding. That's why there's a big 'Dura Ace' logo on the crank.
I've got dura ace on a bike 9100 series and you really can't tell the difference between dura ace and ultegra. Id never buy dura ace again because there isn't a perceivable Benefit over ultegra.
💯🎯
@@glennoc8585I agree,I'm sure it would be difficult to tell the difference between 105 and Dura-Ace also.💯✌🏻👌🏻🚴♂️
Agree with this. 50% of the sales for top-tier products are for ego-based reasons, probably more in other industries, such as clothing and watches
Dura ace isn't meant for normal cyclists. The only difference between dura ace and ultegra is that the former uses lighter materials and as a consiquence wears faster. Its made for racing and to squeeze out as much as an advantage possible for the pros. No other reason. If you're not a pro there is absoloutely no reason to buy it.
Cycling has become a “look at me” sport for those with deep pockets. It’s a shame. 105 is the king group set.
I would argue that has not really changed in the 35-odd years I've been an adult cyclist. I remember it as a kid racing BMX back in the early 80s.
It's always like that ever since 1903 Tour de France
it has always been like that for more than a hundred years.
Overtaking fast bikes with a cheap bike is still soooo sweat.
@@theAdventurousCyclist A bike is never faster than its rider. I have to admit, now I can afford a nice bike but my fastest days are over. So whenever someone younger overtakes me on a budget bike I comfort myself by thinking about how much more beautiful my bike looks.
Wednesday’s video: Here is the new SRAM Red Groupset
Friday’s video: Are groupsets too expensive ?
Monday: mechanical is all what you need
Can u handle it?
@@niklaskristensson2231 i don't that's why bought eds tx
Most of the performance on the bike is from the engine alone (rider.)
Yes, to people who have too much money to spend on snake-oily bike parts I recommend working less and riding more.
@@williwacker2774 Spot on.
That's where most of the work come from... strong muscles..
Bike parts is rocketing. First option is to buy Chinese product and the second option is to buy mechanical groupset. All we need is to study the mechanics and do some tuning. This is the best way to do for now.
US$3,500 for a Giant TCR with Shimano 105 Di2 and carbon wheels. Fantastic bike and value.
Only problem is wheels are hookless
@@tonyg3091 so? You think Giant engineers haven't figure it out yet?
@@decoherence926 figure out what?
@@tonyg3091 not a problem at all. You buy the TCR with 105 DI2 and standard wheels for around 2500, and buy e.g. Elite wheels for around 1000.
@@l.d.t.6327 Yep, that works.I have been on a TCR for quite some time-lovely bike.
A shout out for Campagnolo Chorus DB 12 speed which you can normally pick up for a around a grand. Fantastic brakes, excellent fast shifting and quite light too.
People seem to forget about Chorus. I have never owned it myself, but it is a good deal, looks pretty sexy, and has good range. What isn't to like?
I tried riding my groupsets blind folded. It didn't end well!
😂😂😂😂
105 Mechanical is all you need.
No. Electronic shifting is just better.
Agreed
@@tonyg3091 Not if you're on a multi day tour it isn't.....There's a reason the touring community are more likely to be on mechnical....and even friction shifting......
@@WerdnaLiten That’s a good point but how many of us go on multiday tours with no electricity in the evening? Not that many I’d guess. I keep my gravel/touring bike on mech GRX for that purpose but on the road bike Force AXS is simply better.
@@WerdnaLiten Unless your "multi day tour" lasts weeks, you will be fine with a single charge of Di2.
Straight from the horse's mouth - RIDICULOUS PRICES! 😎💯
All manufacturers have killed mid/high range (Ultegra/Force) mechanicals so they can raise prices. In 2020-2021 you could get good carbon roadbike for 2000-2500€. Now the same bikes are 4000€ with di2/axs.
Crazy stuff, ultegra R8000 was perfect combo of performance and price for enthusiast.
105 DI2, is heavier and more expensive than R8000 ultegra mech, but more profitable.
My 9100 mechanical rim brake dura ace groupset (shifters, derailleurs, brakes) cost me $1500USD NEW in 2021 try doing that with Di2
Yep. The last couple of ultegra mech groupsets were perfect. Performance, weight, price were all spot on.
I have Shimano Ultegra 8000 11 spd groupset/rim brakes on my 2020 Cannondale CAAD 13 and it performs flawlessly. Mechanical is still the best for me. No Di2 ever for me.
My r8000 is horrible, my old bike with ultegra r6800 shifts loads nicer. Mostly down to the fully integrated cabling though I suspect. I wish I could sell it and buy di2
2nd hand 2nd hand 2nd hand, slightly/lightly used.
My favorite is 9-10 speed Shimano parts that were still made in Japan.
It’s not second hand. It’s a bike that has been broken-in by one of the backup riders on the peloton. LOL.
I upgraded my bike last year to a new one, after 20 years of satisfactory cycling. I would have kept the old Specialized, except the aluminium frame was showing very definite signs that it was reaching the end of its life, and I didn't want to chance it any longer. It had a Claris/Tiagra hybrid set-up - triple chainset, 8-cog cassette. Nice, closely-meshed ratios, smooth changing, never a problem. The new bike has a Shimano 105 R7100 groupset: double chainset, 11-cog cassette. It gives me more at the top end. Other than that, though, I notice no difference with the changing. None at all. And the jump when shifting chainwheels means a lot more work with having to shift at the back to compensate. It makes me wonder what extra I'm getting for the supposedly superior groupset - with the superior price tag.
I’ve got Sram Red on one bike and rival on the other and it’s hard to tell the difference when I’m riding to be honest obviously there is a weight issue but I don’t think that matters to much for the riding I do , great post Dave !
I was thinking of upgrading to the new Red from Rival. ChatGPT told me:
The additional power required to ride a bike weighing 22 lb compared to a bike weighing 21 lb at 30 km/h for an 85 kg cyclist is:
- **On a flat surface**: 0.3 W
- **On a 3% gradient**: 1.5 W
- **On a 6% gradient**: 2.4 W
- **On a 9% gradient**: 3.2 W
I have used bikes with Ultegra and 105 but recently bought an old Defy with Sora and I was really impressed with the Sora as it works brilliantly.
Using Rival AXS XPLR on my road bike with a D1 force carbon crank.
Best of both worlds light and functional!
Works great!
My MTB is still running GX mechanical (but with an XO shifter) and can't see it running any better!
Cherry pick the best parts for your set up and get the balance right! 👍
In the early 90s, I spent nearly half my annual salary on a custom road bike with a Campag Record group which lasted for years. No regrets, even if it did leave me broke for months. You only live once, right? 😆
I did the same thing with a TT bike in 2012. Still race it today, no regrets!
Dura-Ace is indeed an overkill. But my conscious chose for Ultegra 12s over 105 12s was because of Di2 buttons integration with Garmin.
I used to think that was a gimic that really didn't matter. Until I updated my older computer. I now find that I scroll through the screens more often than with the old one. But, I run SRAM. I want the buttons!!
Any chain set will work and lots of nice ones out there. Middleburn or Sugino spring to mind.
Nice video. 105 mechanical FTW!
Thanks! 👍
Many people se 105 as high end and many would like reviews of the lower/mid tiers. Claris, sora, tiagra.
Fine for commuters and touring bikes but the parts are getting hard to find
My main reason for going for Ultegra was extra buttons on the hood… although I guess you can just pair Ultegra hoods with 105.
Not the same here i know but i had xtr derailleur with archer components electronic d1x shifting and the motor burned after one season...not fun in the trails mechanical easyer to fix the cie said no warranty just a deal on a new one so i put back xtr shifter works real good and i like the feel 😊
BMC ROADMACHINE 01- ONE In depth Review with SRAM Red? It would be cool to see a match up with the Pinatello X Dogma.
Built a couple of 7-8kg bikes with MicroNew and L-Two recently, using cheap aliexpress and ebay unknown brands for most parts. Amazing what sort of bike you can get for £500-1000 if you know what to do.
hello, do you have pics of thoses bikes or a website/ blog ?
@@mrjohn91mj No, not really. One was for commuting and the other was for a friend who is starting to do some hill climb races and wanted something light for cheap. Maybe I can put something together though.
just installed 105 mechanical 12 speed on an aero internal/headset cable frame and it is faultless - I was surprised how smooth the shifting is despite some tight routing - $550 for complete groupset 👍
honestly , flashy parts are nice for race day, but when you really cycling every day ,all you want is something that just works , and is cheap to maintain.
Only issue with SRAM is the xlpr RD only work 1x. But the benefit is you can mix and match Apex to Red without and issues. My Rival XLPR is flawless, very tempting to upgrade my old Claris road bike to another 1x12 probably Apex
I got Sora on my road bike. Works fine for me. Cheap parts makes it affordable to swap out worn parts.
I have 105 Di2 on my main bike. The only major faults I can see are ones that affect the entire Di2 range.The app is not the most intuitive and the shift buttons are too close together. Other than that it's great.
I have to agree with you. I have a road bike with Red. It was a dream bike and a dream build. I am over it however. I guess I just had to get it out of my system. Don't get me wrong, I still absolutely love the bike. It is just when I got my new gravel bike and another road bike, I went with Force. I just cannot see spending that much money again. The thing I did on my gravel bike to save a noticeable amount of weight was splurge on a high end cassette. The 105/Rival cassettes are fairly heavy. I did it on the gravel bike because the amount of climbing and the steep grades.
I totally agree that, in terms of actual shifting performance, 105 is very nearly as good as Ultegra. I love 105 and have it on my current bike. However, there is a noticeable aesthetic difference between the Shimano groupsets. Ultegra, in addition to being a little lighter (and a lot more expensive), is a bit less clunky and just shifts more quietly and smoothly than 105. (Especially the front derailleur.) 105 is a lovely groupset, and it probably doesn't impact performance very much, but there is something to be said for a gear change that is so smooth that you can barely even feel or hear it.
My Yoeleo R12 aero road bike with 11 sp Ultegra Di2 and Elite 50 D wheels costs about the same as the new SRAM groupset we're hearing about. It is pretty fast. I'm the limiting factor.
For me, at the moment, the sweet spot in Shimano’s road range is Ultegra di2. Available for £1300 online. That’s half the price of Dura Ace and only £300 more than 105 di2. Around 300 grams more than Dura Ace and around 300 grams less than 105.
You can reduce differences by using da crankset, I get mine used 150-200$ on eBay and have it on multiple bikes. Ultimately, nothing wrong with franken groups. Di2 ultegra with da crank, chain and calipers is probably ultimately value for top performance.
Tried 105, ultegra, and dura ace di2 at a bike demo event. I'd still choose mechanical over electronic even if i have the money to buy one. I was expecting a really tactile, crisp feeling when pressing the buttons, like pressing the buttons of a premium mouse. But no, it was soft and mushy feeling, the travel is also deep and the effort on pressing them is only a bit less as compared to when operating a mechanical groupset. Speed in shifting might be quicker but a well setup bike could rival what electronic groupsets can do. For 3000+ dollars, the "upsides" you get don't do the thousands of dollars difference in price any justice.
$1200 for 8.8 kg AF.
$1800 for 7.5 kg CF.
Mech 105 is tough to beat on value and longevity.
That said our local Crit Series was won by a kid on a $200 used frame, a 10 speed drivetrain of mismatched cast-offs and a loaner wheelset.
A 105 aluminium crankset is about the same weight as a Dura Ace crankset with powermeter. Now, do you need a powermeter?
Definitely a worthy investment, but not so much as part of the crankset. Get (Assioma) powermeter pedals to understand how good your fit/balance on the bike is. Also indispensable to really train. Swap them between bikes.
NO.
@@williwacker2774 thanks for the elaborate answer, really standing out.
I would say no. 99% of riders wouldn't know what to actually do with the information. And yes, I have a powermeter.
Campagnolo super record eps for 1850 euro at the moment on bike24. Buy a set of PM pedals and you have a top notch 12-speed electric groupset for less than 2500. Compare that with Red axs well above 4000 offering.
I have 2 on-road bikes (rim brake and disk brake), both are using 8 speed Claris. I' stay with their groupsets as it functions as it should be and according to my riding preference.
The heavy parts are the cranks so you could easily swap them out to reduce weight.
I am running Ultegra mechanical, disc brakes with Durace cassette.
Inverse snobbery is fun. Cheap, unbranded components are my default choice. If I ride well, fantastic. If I come in last, it's just the bike 😅
I rode a bike with Sora on it recently - it was fine.
105 and spend extra on wheels/tires! An old pro taught me that lesson
Try negotiating giving up the arm only, It is hard to pedal with only one leg. There is no current SRAM road disc brake system that I would purchase. The new SRAM Red Shifter/Brake Levers w/ Caliper is $675 (per side).
But your alternatives here are still alot of money
I prefer buying used framesets and older generation Dura Ace/SRAM/Campagnolo to avoid the sticker shock. I still get the same “feel” as riding a top end bike. ☺️
Please also address this question that some (many?) of us have: "I'm buying my first bike, for the same price range is it better to go for a lesser known brand but equipped with 105, or the big names equipped with a Claris or a Tiagra, will that make a difference?"
The lower-end Shimano groups - 8-speed Claris, 9-speed Sora and 10-speed Tiagra - are pretty close in shifting performance and when still combined with rim brakes even braking is okay. But since they only work with cable-actuated brakes they're usually combined with mechanical disc brakes, so their braking performance is abysmal. The jump from Tiagra to 105 is huge! Better braking (hydraulic!), crispier, faster shifting, smaller lever throw and lower weight. So always go with the better components and not with the better-sounding brand on the frame (which might even be from the same East-Asian factory as the budget bike).
I have a very old 10-speed 105. I don't see how anybody who doesn't race needs anything better. If you're not a gearhead, just get a shimano CUES.
CUES is okay, especially because it will replace all the low- to mid-end groups that hardly anyone knows the differences between. But an SLX- or XT-shifter still performs much crispier and faster than CUES.
@@einundsiebenziger5488 bike tech is getting better and better but the human body is still the same. It's not like 40 years ago people were lamenting the shifting quality of their 6-speed Dura-Aces. In the grand scheme of cycling, shifting quality at the mid-top end is fun to obsess over but the differences are essentially the final 2% of a much larger system.
SRAM Apex AXS is incredibly good value for money. It’s awesome.
Getting myself 105 mechanical and installing at home.
Shimano did go out of their way to make the 12spd 105 rear derailleur look shitty vs the ultegra and dura ace ones though.
Take your time and watching a couple of videos of how to install a Chinese made groupset (such as ltwoo er9), then decide if you want to do this project. If the answer is yes and you have the patient, you will end up with a pretty decent bike at friction of the cost.
i always say if you had the money what would you buy? Your answer should be the one you get no matter what.
I'm just looking for a 56cm balance bike
Dura Ace are for those rich peoples and for the Pro team cyclist with sponsor ship, it won't make you rides faster it mostly to shown off the richy class among average cyclist when riding along the average peoples. I had stocked up the 105 and ultegra 11 speed mechanical groupset as today prices are insanley cheaper less than half as compare 2 years ago the ultegra is crazy less than 1/3 of the price, and it is almost obsolete from most shops as the new 12 speeds mechanic groupset are replacing the old. 11 speed is more than enough as only uses most on few of the cog gear ratio when riding, 12 gears cassette are mostly useless.
105 Groupset of the people
I've had Dura Ace and Red on my bikes but felt it unnecessary with my limited ability. As I got older I was less concerned with speed, weight, and aero, all the things they sell us on. So, I focus more on comfort and have fitted my bikes with a more financially practical Force groupset now. I have a Rival on a couple bikes but Force is the one I go to most. The top tier stuff was nice but I just didn't need it. When I scratched my Dura Ace crank it hurt more than if I were to do it to a lesser groupset.
Like anything else, there is what I need, and that's what I want. 105 is good enough for 95% of riders, even the most serious. Unless you are competing at the highest level, it's not worth it.
I was in this situation back in 2016 so i went singlespeed for my race bike 😂
I prefer ultegra...the flat black looks better anyway
Microshift makes some really good gear.
Indeed, their budget shifters found on trekking bikes and MTBs in the 500 to 1000 €/£/$ price range performs much smoother and faster than the Shimano parts that are usually on there - Tourney, Acera, Altus, Alivio. Thankfully all these groups are soon to be replaced with Cues.
Dura Ace looks good. That’s the only reason.
And scratches easily
Supply and demand. The reality is they are expensive because of price gouging, which in turn makes new entrants possible now they have lowered the barrier to entry into the market. The Chinese entrants can actually make profits at their price points.
Foget the bike , the key issue to obtain is low body weight & high level fitness
That's All folks 👌
The tech will ultimately come down to the mid/lower tier groups, just like the 105 di2 and apex axs. But remember that couldn't have happened without first developing the tech in the high end. To be fair, the new RED is not that much more expensive than the old 2019 ver. By percentage, the cost of groceries and housing has inflated way more over the last few years.
The most sensible comment in ages 👌😂
Buy direct from china,ltwoo Sensah and now magene witt electronic hydraulic groupsets
I'm riding a Fixie.....
The performance is amazing....
Shifting works better than any groupset on the market....
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Big tech teach us counting grams & watts in single numbers😅
Because almost everyone is delusional. They think Brioni suits will make them instantly look like Bond. Also the rising of nouveau riche with useless chitchat at the cafe bragging components (rather than improving their physical limitation as it is far easier to brag about gears than being as fit as real athletes). Been there, done that.
I couldn't agree more! Though, with my low budget, even the mechanical 105 feels quite expensive.
A lot of snobbery in cycling? I'm shocked ;-).
A car tyre is cheaper than a bike tyre. People pay way too much for bike parts.
Not my car tyres 🫣😀
@@davidarthur 😮
I need, but can not afford 😂
Nothing beats the value of Ultegra. Hands down the best.
Tiagra is not far off, and far better value.....and hardly any slower - and who really cares about that apart from pros.
people in the comments spazzing and frothing at the mouth over products that aren't targetted toward them. LOL
L2
Mechanical is the only option!
Weight that's all. I'd ride a 105 bike sub 7kgs
if you have to pay for Dura Ace you don't need it
That's very true
Why pay more 🤔 because there cool as 👍
well there is that, sometimes want trumps need :)
... because they're* (!) cool
3099£...affordable?! I mean compaired to the stupid 10k+ of high end bike yes but for me thats just not affordable.
Not 105! Whole hydro group under $700 usd
Welcome to the the Panderverse aka David Arthur’s channel
Get a Pinion with a belt drive ,very few are going to get any world speed records so make your life easier & hassle free .
Nice piece of engineering, but heavy. Makes no sense on road bikes.
@@einundsiebenziger5488 I'm currently 2 stone over weight so 1lb extra for a pinion doesn't matter , I'm not racing .I'm more interested in reliability .
In my opinion, 3000£ it's not an affordable price... 😔
how about £500?
@@davidarthur £500 is more affordable, no doubt. In my opinion, I consider the limit of affordability to be around £1000, about €1200. Regards from Spain 😊
... is* not an affordable price.
Don`t buy them. Solved.
12k for a push iron is no joke. No way it can be justified, total rip off.
I even don't consider buying any electronic groupset. Having the best frameset TIME 2023,I love my Ultegra mechanical 11-speed with Rotor crankset, and Magura brakes (yes Magura). It is perfect, smooth, and absolutely reliable in any conditions.
Stop reminding us how smooth and fast electronic groupsets are.. what do you expect.. it has a friggin motor 🤷🏻♂️ it directly assists you electronically and mechanically.
Youl never need anything more than 105 di2. remember everything above is the same tech but lighter less durable materials
You don't even need Di2. And if you have the choice of mechanical Ultegra and electronic 105 at the same price, definitely go for Ultegra!
Sora is all you need
... absolutely abysmal braking. Sora is only available for cable-actuated brakes, so mostly it's combined with shitty mechanical discs.
Do you really nee....No! we don't! I threw away my Di2 eTaps overpriced electronic garbages went back to a mechanical 105 and have been living the best life ever for years now. I went back to clinchers at the same time even better, no more dealing with quiffing tubeless leaks and mornings when the glued dried up and the tire won't inflate. The cycling industry as a whole is a big azz marketing scam. There are no gains! My bike doesn't know if its riding 105 or AXS Red when I'm putting down 1000 watts on the ground. I am free!
The prices got so ridiculous WHEN electronic shifting and disc brakes came around. Before disc and electronic, it was very affordable.
Sure about that? High end products have always been expensive relative to earnings and stuff
Sram Red is easy to avoid. Not because it's shit-expensive but because the looking-like-a-budget-angle-grinder cranks and backwards-C-shaped brake levers are so ugly.
Screw DA and Red. Ultegra and Force is where it’s at.
Ultegra and Force are* where it's at.
@@einundsiebenziger5488 🤣😅
No.
"Ultegra and Force" as a group representing second tier of Shimano and SRAM IS where it's at.
I installed 105 Di2 on my titanium road bike at Christmas and it has been great. Snappy shifting, good battery life, and excellent braking. As I'm not a weight weenie in the slightest, I can't see ever wanting to upgrade to Ultegra Di2.
You can really feel rotational weight. Spend the money on things that rotate such as wheels, tires, cassette, and crankset. 100g difference between regular Specialized frame vs s-works frame is the worst way to spend $2,000
Low-weight cassette makes no sense as it's in the very center of the wheel. Rather go for something that lasts. That's why all Ultegra users I know have 105 cassettes on their bikes.
We need Chinese clones... it's not rocket science
Nobody needs fraud and low-quality workmanship sold via quationable sales channels supported by a murderous dictatorship.
Engine on top of the bike is the most important bit!
You're not buying Red or Dura Ace for the performance, but for the status. Some people pay premium for that (and not just in cycling). Good for us! The more budget offerings derive heavily from the top tier products.
So many bias recommendations nowadays. Some videos witching the same month contradiscs others.