The one thing that was really understated is the vague nature of his animations since a lot of them go from idle pose to immediately the move, so even the slowest of moves are hard to react.
@@wingedbluj1674 You shouldn't have to do that, though. This character throws out the whole point of meaningful and readable animation and it's frustrating.
They're ambiguous on startup but when they get going there's nothing vague about them. He's one of the showiest characters in that regard, considering that he shapeshifts for basically all of them.
@@nathanlevesque7812 The start-up being so ambiguous is what makes it unfair, though. In other fighting games there might be a couple characters with one or two ambiguous-looking moves to help with high/low mix-ups, but they're usually balanced with slower frame data on start-up. Here they seem to just be this way because it fits with his character's origins from LCD games, but it's to the detriment of gameplay in my opinion.
GenophefeElisabeth I mean, if you asked maister if he wanted to fight game and watch or any other character of his choice, do you really think he'd choose game and watch?
@@rayh966 bucket braking wasn't nearly as busted tho, because GnW pretty much can't defend himself on the ground since his rolls suck as well. His aerials aren't even good either
@@illford6921 Game & Watch does have decent aerials, what do you mean? The only bad ones are up and forward air, but back, down, and neutral air are pretty good.
@@fox.4214 all of his aerials are great. Fair is good edgeguarding tool and can start combos, NAIR is a great juggling tool, Back air is an INSANE juggling tool, dair is ok ngl but up air is also a great tool for juggling.
@@jcgocrazy yeah. tbh i want some buffs on top of fixes, stuff that would make him better without making him busted, say nair hitbox covering his entire body so you can hit people easier with it as an extra neutral option and combo into it more consistently and stuff, or dair actually being a reasonable kill move offstage, but most of what holds him back is stupid stuff like upsmash not functioning or side-b missing a hitbox on the end of the move (You'd be surprised how good shorthop side-b (as in, side-b right at the start of the shorthop so it's basically grounded but the aerial version of the move) would be to punish people and start a combo if it had hitboxes where it really should).
@@jcgocrazy Yeah, dair not spiking properly is what I was talking about with it not killing people. And I just didn't list all of his problems because I've listed so many off so many times that it's tiring at this point. I unironically miss smash 4 dair because, as much as it was a bad move overall, it killed people offstage. I could ledgeguard people more consistently in smash 4 than I can in ultimate, because fair isn't a "do all be all" ledgeguard option, as good as it is. Ledgeguarding was worse overall in smash 4, and falco was terrible in smash 4, but his ledgeguard game and combos were why I loved him. He only retained one of those things coming into ultimate.
I remember when i first started playing smash, i just picked him because he looked funny, his aesthetic is so different. The RNG element of his side was also a fun concept. I remember when he was considered a mid tier only a few years ago, but then people actually started to abuse his moveset, and realized how annoying/strong he really is. I'm proud of my 2D boy.
Same, i refused to play smash with my friends untilk about 6-7 months ago and chose G&W because of who the character is knowing nothing....Everyday now my friends plead with me to play somebody new or just complain about how annoying I am...I am an Up B abuser lol
@Boy Goy how y'all gonna say you love fun when you sit in Shield and wait to upB all game, or stand in place and mash c-stick down? Every GW I've fought is on a macro loop of upB into dair, whether or not it works at all.
Idk, I have that feeling with StarFox characters than G&W. Twitchy af and too fast for me to comprehend. Yea no thanks. I'd rather get thwacked by 10 Heros
@@nsp3468 Deifnitely not. It wasn't broken in regard to two framing, it was simply good. Covering ledge get ups doesnt make a character broken, as there are so many characters besides wolf eho can do such.
@@cubicalprobably There's footage of DSmash hitting about 2 units ( Unit is one small square in training mode.) Underneath the stage, which HAD to be patched
JcGoCrazy just give it and all other recoveries free fall. What makes one character’s already good recovery less deserving of free fall than other characters’ terrible recoveries?
Andrew Healis Thats also a good fix if you want to leave it on frame 3. Most optimal up B OOS are frame 5-6, so adjusting it to that makes it a little more manageable
JcGoCrazy yeah, I just can’t understand why good recoveries get rewarded with no free fall while bad ones continue to exist with terrible free fall. It’s poor recovery balancing if you ask me. Only exceptions I’d make are recoveries with no hitboxes whatsoever (Duck Hunt), tether-only recoveries (Joker or maybe Byleth), or characters with no actual recovery (Jigglypuff and Yoshi). Sonic’s and Banjo’s spring/pad can hit and gimp and Game & Watch’s hitboxes are frame 3. If this change was actually implemented, I’d buff Banjo’s vertical distance a bit and make Sonic’s grab ledge a bit better. Duck Hunt’s is fine as is.
@@sulfur3684 considering the size and the frame data of these lighter characters you have to double your efforts to even get a hit in, like half of the stuff that they spam is safe on shield so light or not you won't be hitting them very much especially with slower characters
So tl;dr 1) GnW has the Safest OOS option meaning that he can just Hold shield on 90% of approaches and it's a valid option 2) His fast moves can lead to juggles / Judgment Cheese 3) Up-Smash is a move that can be thrown out and is wicked scary 4) His edge guarding is great against the entire cast. GnW as a character is what I call "Hbox Syndrome" Where he's definitely a really good character, but only a few people Main that character at top level since everyone else hates the character (Like Jigglypuff in Melee)
hbox syndrome in that mentally ill people don't want to give credit to a player for their skill with an upper mid tier character and make up outlandish nonsense about how powerful that character is(leffen syndrome). Yeah GnW is a lot like that.
@Gustavo Abuchaim de Freitas Xavier they're sheep. And this is why the smash fan base is cancer. People complain and bitch so much in the smash community its ridiculous
@@glonik10 Yo for realy I feel like this community is getting closer to the League of Legends toxicity. I'm really sad it has to be that way. Literally complaining about EVERYTHING. People are so ridiculous and stupid most of the time.
@@Whithered_Bonnie28 honestly I think its worse than league's community. When you throw a frozen crap at somebody for winning a tournament you have some serious issues
Why did I just realize that his nair is a fish tank? For some reason i always thought it's a parachute and didn't get why there were fish coming out of it... wow
Well said, I discovered my luv for him when I only had a wii mote and cpu's to play on brawl and since then I wanted to try him out on ultimate so badly, so even if he gets nerfed to oblivion to the point of being mid tier at best and still annoy people he will never stop being my main
Entire video I was just chanting, "DOWN SMASH. DOWN SMASH. DOWN SMASH." Larry: "So Game and Watch's down sma-" Me: "WOOOOOOOOO! YEAH! YEAH! YEAH BABY! I CALLLLED IT. WOOOOOOO!!"
@@grandpasoldier8580 pretty sure gnw is just as good in Pm. he's an A tier right? I'd say he's close to if not just as good as he was in that game. def not brawl though lmaooo
Guy Lloyd not sure why you’re so mad lol but I was talking about the wolf rolling into GnW’s chef animation and getting hit for it - not the dash attack.
Me: Hits a Game & Watch's 978th shield Game & Watch: *You have activated my trap card* *_MASHES UP B_* Me: Gets hit Game & Watch: YOU THOUGHT I WAS DONE?? *_DOWN AIR_*
Exactly. Everyone was fine with game and watch "being bad" but the second people see him as "being good" people say he's op and hate on him like if that isint the biggest bruh moment I've seen idk what is
Falco is decent. Rosalina is decent. G&W is undoubtedly one of the most annoying characters in the game (which is why this video exists). Of course he’s a problem when the devs give him problematic attributes.
@@VoluXian yeah, but d-tilt can't hit airborne opponents, only when they are on the ground, and its a tad slower than f-tilt. However, it kills earlier, and you are crouching during the attack, so you may dodge some attacks and grabs
@@Porygo Hey maybe if people used their brain and played patiently, the up B becomes very predictable and avoiding it isn't too difficult. From there G&W's slow air speed and predictable dair allow you to punish him. People who can't do this are just unable to play patiently and wait for G&W to open himself up.
@@Porygo Yes but the thing is you should never be hitting gw shield head on. Thats just not playing smart. Instead using shield pokes and ranged attacks is more useful. I DO see how it could be considered annoying though, even though his options out of up B are limited and since his air speed is slow, he's easy to chase. Good point though i see your point about how fast it is and how it cant be crossed.
Pandinus we cannot spam meaninglessly, especially at kill percent, cause any disjointed option will probably kill and most of our best kill options aren’t great on approach. Also trying to play vs heavy characters means that we are very liable to die sub 70 if our approach gets read.
@@elllllllllliot depends, most heavies can be easily gimped and die from a combo or a single aerial off stage at dunno 40 or 50. Plus not everyone has disjoints, and a bunch of these light characters also have access to disjoints
@@thanks721 hey I think I do, as a heavy main my locals are 90% using light to mid/light chars, I've been playing them for years thats pretty much the only matchup I know, in fact whenever my wi-fi doesn't die and I go online I'm always weirded out whenever I fight other heavies lmao. My main is dorf wich is the worst offender of "can dish it out but can't keep up" but other heavies like bowser definitely have a much better time with the insane speed, super armor and surprisingly fast moves
His up b is the only fast move. Maybe jab. Everyone who can't out space him has better frame data. (Pichu, Squirtle, Kirby, honestly Kirby can out space him but prefers not to)
As someone who plays R.O.B. and G&W, I enjoy watching people go through pain and complain about my character picks. It always brings a special joy to my heart.
The best part about GNW is he is the only character that actually beats the Rat. It is so lovely seeing Pickachu get tormented the same way he does to most of the cast. In all seriousness though, GNW only being good for taking out the Rat is not a good sign of Ults meta. Ideally I would change both chars GNW: -Reduced Hitboxes on Up B so opponents. Make so were Up B is still big but not as unpunishable as it currently is. -Remove I Frames on Up B. Perfect example of Smash characters having random I frames on certain moves -Up Smash invincibility is only on the Head The Rat: I really hate this character but to avoid gutting him -Increased hurtbox size in all forms -Delete Pancaking -More endlag on Tjolt and QA I know there is this debate of buffing worse characters instead of nerfing the top tiers. Issue is that GNW and Pickachu strong points would require mass buffs in order to weaken them. -Massive buff to Grabs in Range,Frame Data, Available combos and confirms, and kill power for GNW -Massive hitbox and mobility buffs do that characters can actually hit and punish Pickachu
The Impersonator as a pikachu main ive been hating game and watch from the beginning,I knew from the start he was my worst match up besides ness,maybe that’s just me though.anyway I don’t think neither the characters should be nerfed.pikachu is super light and dies pretty quickly so the hurt box nerd would make him like how olimar was.his t jolt has a lot more end lag than it looks so if a pika spams it you can close the distance by running in.i don’t mind it getting nerfed though since I don’t abuse that move like I should.if quick attack gets nerfed I think it might hurt pika a lot since that’s his only escape option,maybe make it so that it stops on shield?for game and watch I hate him but I don’t want to see him get nerfed since he was never good until now and he would be like Pichu,was good and fun but than pooped on by nerfs,I don’t like seeing characters getting nerfed.
Agreed. GnW should give that yellow turd complete hell. Pikachu NEEDS a larger hitbox. So many times online, it feels like when I attack it, my moves phase through or don't connect. Sick of getting juggled by it whenever I am not playing a certain character to counter it. Game and Watch is unironically less frustrating.
@@mcgamerboi3523 I would disagree with a lot. A lot of characters have a nighmarish time actually hitting and punishing Pickachu due to his Pancaking and hurtboxes issues. This makes it a lot harder to kill him than it should be unless you are like Mario, but few characters in Ult have good hitboxes for short characters. Pickachu is so hard to hit that he even beats a lot of sword characters, despite him being designed to lose to them. If Pickachu want to he can camp most of the cast with ease between QA and TJolt. If characters with Reflectors can struggle with him. QA invalidates Edgeguarding and Ledge Trapping, while also making it so that a lot of characters cant juggle or corner Pickachu. I feel more endlag it is pretty fair all things considered.
@@theimpersonator7086 As a Pika main, I agree with increased hurtbox to prevent pancaking. It really wouldn't be too big of a deal imo, but I'm not a pro like Esam. For up-b nerfs, the best thing to do is make it stop on shields. That way, it can actually be punished if you anticipate it, and would feel more rewarding for Pika players when they hit their opponent with it. I feel like this would be enough to keep Pika's strengths just the way they are, while making his weaknesses actually noticeable.
Based off his strengths and flaws, it seems the best way to beat G&W is to be super defensive. He seems to be dependent off the opponent being aggressive. But can't do too much if he is the one being aggressive.
Yeah casual players just run straight into him and get punished, then they don't DI so that's prolly why there's so much hate. I can't stress as a g&w main how annoying it is when someone has zoning tools or lots of ground speed and just pokes you and camps the whole game. It's just about impossible to win. I mean really, try doing two falco lasers then snuff out whatever approach option he uses. None of his approach options except maybe back air beat anybody else's options if you play reactively.
David why not the links? Is it cause they projectile spam cause I don’t do that or if you find their easy to gimp recovery annoying (speaking from someone who got spiked by a Mac) idk then
Man I really like your content larry! It contains reasonable information and thus feels way more high quality than many of the guides out there right now.
I’m kind of late but can you maybe do a series on this? I feel like I learned about so much data from the way you explained it. Really love the way you show what you’re talking about in training mode as well. Seeing a sort of series on this for multiple characters would be really neat.
I love that hes good in this game. He deserves it. I cant play him though; Playing him feels like trying to draw a circle without moving my wrist, fingers, or elbow. Its weird
It's not because they made him good, but they made him ungodly annoying, similarly to Zelda, who's actually cool in other games where she's viable, like PM and smash flash 2
Do you love killing people by accident? Have you ever dreamed of being launched into orbit at 40%? How about force feeding your opponent untill they leave the game? If you said yes to all of those then G&W might be your new main
A lot of this could be solved if Up B just put him in helpless. His aerials should stay strong because he’s pretty lightweight. But his up B being helpless weakens his premier OOS option. Except on stages with platforms
I love when they say that these are the lightest characters and yet their small size and their frame data is so fast that its double the work to even get a hit in
I'm a G&W main in every single smash game (not in 64 for obvious reasons), because I love his playstyle and his jankiness, that's the reason why the tier list means nothing for me and my love for the character...well, until now. I remember when at the beginning of the game the character was considered bad, for his new fair, uair, down-tilt and other (stupid) things, Zero put him in the bottom tier just above Little Mac in version 2.0.1, and even at the time I onestly thought that he was better than that, not a high-tier but a mid-tier character at least, then the months passed.....and passed.....and passed until people started to realize that he was indeed a good character. And immediately after people started to complain about his up-b and his down-smash, two things that have been in the game since december 2018, this infuriated me, not for the complaints themsleves, I was infuriated with the "pecoroni". I'm Italian and pecoroni means: "big sheeps", we usually use this word when someone follows a person or and opinion without thinking about it, a large part of the smash community IS full of these sheeps, why? For the pecoroni if a top player puts a character a in a certain tier it automatically means that it's true, they don't try to go through or to think about it, they just accept It. Then people start to call you a "cancer", I repeat, just because some pro player changed his mind, that's sad and pathetic. Do i think he's broken? In some ways yes, but guys, remember the FACT that he's received veeeery few buffs since the beginning and this controversy started recently.
You forgot to add that he has not only the safest but also the most useful jab in the game for all purposes since the first hit is a guaranteed mixup, you can eat around 30-40% damage if he traps you on the ledge and it can also kill
The only real problem(s) I have with G&W are his animations. His moves tend to have 2-3 animation frames with no keyfames in between. The total frames of his moves being short as hell compared to the majority of the cast makes him incredibly difficult to whiff punish. That being said, Maister's bait and bait and bait and punish playstyle is a treat to watch. Glad he achieved his goal of top 2 at a super major. Can't wait to see him at the top.
I love light is getting destroyed by game & watch in the background. Game & watch should be nerfed but by a tiny bit. I mean like 1 thing, I don't main game & watch and I don't want to see him be nerfed really hard. Also, great vid larry.
I'm a G&W main, but I thing I heard said alot before all the new complaints is spot dodge to down smash, *and repeat*, but yeah just make that a less safe option in some way and that's all I'll say
Honestly, if they just gave down smash and up smash more lag and made Up B a little worse at setting up juggles then G&W would be a perfectly reasonable character.
As a really advanced mr game and watch player. I can say that i have hit people with the parachute multiple times and also used it to escape out of trouble if things look rough. I even managed to dodge multiple final smashes like inkling killer wail and samus's final smash
Imagine playing against this character online with the token 15 frames of input lag. Literally why am i even playing at that point? I wish this game wasnt so dumb:(
@@kkokay4 lmao you can easily punish down smash and side smash. And if you play clever even up smash. Just because you cant be brain dead while fighting him doesnt mean he has a degenerate playstyle, it only means you need to get better at the match up. Stop crying about it lmao
G&W has the problem that he is only good if you play him optimally. Then playing him optimally is just boring to watch once you understand what is going on.
I main Game and Watch, it feels surreal to have your character being the center of hatred after almost two decades of his existence. It's also funny as hell.
Little correction on Oil Panic. Game & watch is NOT invulnerable when using Oil Panic as an attack. The only intangibility he receives is when absorbing something.
It's a matter of matchup knowledge. His moves have ambiguous startup but extremely distinct animations. After maining G&W for three smash games I know his ins & outs far well enough to be able to play against him without much trouble telegraphic-wise. Playing around his shield is much tougher, because even if you know the matchup, you just simply can't touch his shield recklessly and there's no amount of game knowledge that can change that fact.
Do a “Why everyone hates Bowser”....I don’t know but I feel like anybody who uses him actually gets carried, but maybe I’m just terrible playing with Bowsers 💀
It is absolutely your fault if you do badly against bowsers. Whether they are carried or not, you should be able to see your mistakes instead of just making excuses regarding the game.
As a Bowser main, I do get a lot of mean looks at the character select screen, but Bowser has tons of bad matchups. Tough guy is a mean passive ability, and if you forget and go into a rapid jab, then you'll get punished really hard. Tbh the best counter would be a stage where both his down air and down b can't get him safely, like Lylat cruise. Otherwise, Bowser can be comboed for days because he's huge, so just choose a character that can latter combo like Mario and you'll probably be fine. He also struggles a little against super projectile heavy characters like Plant or Zelda. Also be mindful of his up b out of shield, which I'd argue is 2nd best to Game and Watch purely because of the speed and duration of the hitbox. Hope that helped! Lmk if you'd like to know more about him! I don't think he needs and buffs or nerfs in my opinion.
Игры
The one thing that was really understated is the vague nature of his animations since a lot of them go from idle pose to immediately the move, so even the slowest of moves are hard to react.
But the good news is you can go frame by frame in training mode to know exactly when the hitbox comes out
@@wingedbluj1674
You shouldn't have to do that, though. This character throws out the whole point of meaningful and readable animation and it's frustrating.
They're ambiguous on startup but when they get going there's nothing vague about them. He's one of the showiest characters in that regard, considering that he shapeshifts for basically all of them.
@@nathanlevesque7812 The start-up being so ambiguous is what makes it unfair, though. In other fighting games there might be a couple characters with one or two ambiguous-looking moves to help with high/low mix-ups, but they're usually balanced with slower frame data on start-up. Here they seem to just be this way because it fits with his character's origins from LCD games, but it's to the detriment of gameplay in my opinion.
@@Cheezmonka I'm glad that Smash isn't like other fighting games. If I wanted something like them, I would just play them.
That's not true: not everyone hates him. Maister loves him.
GenophefeElisabeth I mean, if you asked maister if he wanted to fight game and watch or any other character of his choice, do you really think he'd choose game and watch?
Used to be a game and watch main but many people in my region hated me for that so I dropped him
@@Phoenix_The_HeroHater dont stop being yourself man , fuck the haters
JustFunKiro touchè
@@CaptainShenanigans42 Yes I do. He's the best GnW. It'd be E Z moneeeee
"Why everyone hates Game and Watch"
*lists his entire moveset*
No no, he's got a point
“I’m not going to cover everything about the character, but some of the great traits that make him such a great character...”
@@adamania31 *covers everything about the character*
*Laughs in Game&Watch Main*
The side b 9 is just the G&W play just
Flipping you off
"I feel like a young lad again!" said Game and Watch, as he proceeded to up-B without a care in the world.
Lmfao 😂
love how people refer to him as a grandpa even if he's only 40 years old
I remember when G&W's only good quality was the fact that he could randomly kill you at 0% off a down-throw. How far he's come.
man couldn't even shield himself properly in his first game
@@davidthecommenter no, but he could bucket-brake, allowing him to live on insane percentages. he's always been busted in some way or form.
@@rayh966 bucket braking wasn't nearly as busted tho, because GnW pretty much can't defend himself on the ground since his rolls suck as well. His aerials aren't even good either
@@illford6921 Game & Watch does have decent aerials, what do you mean? The only bad ones are up and forward air, but back, down, and neutral air are pretty good.
@@fox.4214 all of his aerials are great. Fair is good edgeguarding tool and can start combos, NAIR is a great juggling tool, Back air is an INSANE juggling tool, dair is ok ngl but up air is also a great tool for juggling.
Y'all laughed at him in melee,game and watch is good now and everyone hates him haha.
Funny thing is, he might've been a good character in Melee if he functioned.
Cries in ultimate falco
tenacity25 Still can’t believe Falco’s issues haven’t been addressed
@@jcgocrazy yeah. tbh i want some buffs on top of fixes, stuff that would make him better without making him busted, say nair hitbox covering his entire body so you can hit people easier with it as an extra neutral option and combo into it more consistently and stuff, or dair actually being a reasonable kill move offstage, but most of what holds him back is stupid stuff like upsmash not functioning or side-b missing a hitbox on the end of the move (You'd be surprised how good shorthop side-b (as in, side-b right at the start of the shorthop so it's basically grounded but the aerial version of the move) would be to punish people and start a combo if it had hitboxes where it really should).
tenacity25 His throws also dont work, and dair doesnt even spike properly
@@jcgocrazy Yeah, dair not spiking properly is what I was talking about with it not killing people. And I just didn't list all of his problems because I've listed so many off so many times that it's tiring at this point.
I unironically miss smash 4 dair because, as much as it was a bad move overall, it killed people offstage. I could ledgeguard people more consistently in smash 4 than I can in ultimate, because fair isn't a "do all be all" ledgeguard option, as good as it is. Ledgeguarding was worse overall in smash 4, and falco was terrible in smash 4, but his ledgeguard game and combos were why I loved him. He only retained one of those things coming into ultimate.
Mr Game and Watch be like: “end lag is fiction”
F-tilt is perfect roll punish
:albino intensified:
Up smash: what’s a hurtbox?
I remember when i first started playing smash, i just picked him because he looked funny, his aesthetic is so different. The RNG element of his side was also a fun concept. I remember when he was considered a mid tier only a few years ago, but then people actually started to abuse his moveset, and realized how annoying/strong he really is. I'm proud of my 2D boy.
Same. My friends didn't like me hitting nines
same i just picked him up cause i thought he was wacky and then he becomes this top tier
Same, i refused to play smash with my friends untilk about 6-7 months ago and chose G&W because of who the character is knowing nothing....Everyday now my friends plead with me to play somebody new or just complain about how annoying I am...I am an Up B abuser lol
Game and Watch mains when they see someone having fun:
*"I have a job to do."*
At least I'm having fun!
As a G&W main, yeah... you’re right
@Boy Goy how y'all gonna say you love fun when you sit in Shield and wait to upB all game, or stand in place and mash c-stick down? Every GW I've fought is on a macro loop of upB into dair, whether or not it works at all.
Idk, I have that feeling with StarFox characters than G&W. Twitchy af and too fast for me to comprehend. Yea no thanks. I'd rather get thwacked by 10 Heros
i have a job to do
clever to name a game & watch guide "why everyone hates game and watch" lmao
I wouldn't really say clever. Technically this was more of an analysis than a guide, stating day 1 G&W stuff.
@@brambleblaster it was a joke btw
7:40 "game and watch has the best down smash"
*cries in pre-patch wolf*
Wolf's dsmash wasn't significantly nerfed. G&W's was better to begin with
@@nsp3468 Deifnitely not. It wasn't broken in regard to two framing, it was simply good. Covering ledge get ups doesnt make a character broken, as there are so many characters besides wolf eho can do such.
@@cubicalprobably
There's footage of DSmash hitting about 2 units ( Unit is one small square in training mode.)
Underneath the stage, which HAD to be patched
It still hits underneath the stage my dudes, just to a slightly lesser extent than before.
N S P when did they nerf it ?!
Lol my man larry making a vid just so others can correctly complain too
Fucking hate GaW as of today
Up B just needs a frame nerf and down smash needs more End Lag
JcGoCrazy just give it and all other recoveries free fall. What makes one character’s already good recovery less deserving of free fall than other characters’ terrible recoveries?
Andrew Healis Thats also a good fix if you want to leave it on frame 3. Most optimal up B OOS are frame 5-6, so adjusting it to that makes it a little more manageable
JcGoCrazy yeah, I just can’t understand why good recoveries get rewarded with no free fall while bad ones continue to exist with terrible free fall. It’s poor recovery balancing if you ask me. Only exceptions I’d make are recoveries with no hitboxes whatsoever (Duck Hunt), tether-only recoveries (Joker or maybe Byleth), or characters with no actual recovery (Jigglypuff and Yoshi). Sonic’s and Banjo’s spring/pad can hit and gimp and Game & Watch’s hitboxes are frame 3. If this change was actually implemented, I’d buff Banjo’s vertical distance a bit and make Sonic’s grab ledge a bit better. Duck Hunt’s is fine as is.
*spends 10 minutes talking about how good he is*
ok disadvantages, well he’s light...
that is a major disadvantage though
@@sulfur3684 tell that to Pikachu and Pre-Patch Pichu
@@sulfur3684 considering the size and the frame data of these lighter characters you have to double your efforts to even get a hit in, like half of the stuff that they spam is safe on shield so light or not you won't be hitting them very much especially with slower characters
His sheild is also bottom 3, his techs are absolutely terrible, he’s tied for 3rd lightest, he has prob bottom 3 2 frame hitboxes
his neutral is pretty wack aswell. like hes not op or anything just kinda stupid
So tl;dr
1) GnW has the Safest OOS option meaning that he can just Hold shield on 90% of approaches and it's a valid option
2) His fast moves can lead to juggles / Judgment Cheese
3) Up-Smash is a move that can be thrown out and is wicked scary
4) His edge guarding is great against the entire cast.
GnW as a character is what I call "Hbox Syndrome" Where he's definitely a really good character, but only a few people Main that character at top level since everyone else hates the character (Like Jigglypuff in Melee)
I don't know if g&w is quite as polarizing as melee jigglypuff.
@@mikeyes620 its definitely a close comparison
hbox syndrome in that mentally ill people don't want to give credit to a player for their skill with an upper mid tier character and make up outlandish nonsense about how powerful that character is(leffen syndrome). Yeah GnW is a lot like that.
@@rofflezwafflez1023 agree
You forgot his down throw side B kill at 0% when the 9 comes out. 🙂
Remember when people said he was low tier?
@Gustavo Abuchaim de Freitas Xavier they're sheep. And this is why the smash fan base is cancer. People complain and bitch so much in the smash community its ridiculous
@@glonik10 Yo for realy I feel like this community is getting closer to the League of Legends toxicity. I'm really sad it has to be that way. Literally complaining about EVERYTHING. People are so ridiculous and stupid most of the time.
For real*
@@Whithered_Bonnie28 honestly I think its worse than league's community. When you throw a frozen crap at somebody for winning a tournament you have some serious issues
glonik nice typo
Why did I just realize that his nair is a fish tank?
For some reason i always thought it's a parachute and didn't get why there were fish coming out of it... wow
It might have been in earlier games like melee but idk
It was a parachute in melee and project m
I'm a true G&W main and I will main him even when he is loved, hated, Bottom, or Top tier
Same here. I've been using him since Brawl and have chosen other characters to use, but I always come back to Game and Watch
Me too but if rayman gets out he's getting pocketed
G&W mains rise up
Me too
Well said, I discovered my luv for him when I only had a wii mote and cpu's to play on brawl and since then I wanted to try him out on ultimate so badly, so even if he gets nerfed to oblivion to the point of being mid tier at best and still annoy people he will never stop being my main
Entire video I was just chanting,
"DOWN SMASH. DOWN SMASH. DOWN SMASH."
Larry: "So Game and Watch's down sma-"
Me: "WOOOOOOOOO! YEAH! YEAH! YEAH BABY! I CALLLLED IT. WOOOOOOO!!"
Spencer It was in the thumbnail...
and in the beginning of the video.. this aint it g
Not even his best tool.. Relax champ.
@@Blittsplitt5 lmao i know. But it's the one i get cheesed by the most lol.
i_love_maister_woo out here
Me, a G&W main: “Write that down, write that down!”
Me, also a G&W Main: “DoYEEE DOYEEE!!” *_draws a 9._*
UltraCboy same
same LOL
@@mistamemewide this joke might be too advanced for them
Same
Yeah i think it was about time G&W became a good character after they did him dirty in melee
he was good in brawl and pm
@@jrkanaan Ehh...
@@jrkanaan he was definitely better in those games but not to the extent that he is in Ultimate
@@grandpasoldier8580 pretty sure gnw is just as good in Pm. he's an A tier right? I'd say he's close to if not just as good as he was in that game. def not brawl though lmaooo
@@tashi32_ GnW was fucking stupid in PM and he's still really good in the newest update
>Used to be the worst character in Melee
>Is now considered broken
How the tables have turned.
Worst character in Melee is still Bowser.
@@E4439Qv5 at least he was a finished character. Game and Watch is all sorts of wonky.
I've mained him for years now. My time has come...
9:03 I actually got cancer from watching that
Bigman the fact that there’s even a hit box on him so that when you finally do get in you still get hit, just makes me cringe. Lmao.
Cry some more
@@Zaft9
Are you blind? That was a dash attack you fucking idiot
Guy Lloyd not sure why you’re so mad lol but I was talking about the wolf rolling into GnW’s chef animation and getting hit for it - not the dash attack.
Don’t expect balance from two-on-ones
Thanks for the Game And Watch guide, Larry! Keep up the good work!
Me: Hits a Game & Watch's 978th shield
Game & Watch: *You have activated my trap card*
*_MASHES UP B_*
Me: Gets hit
Game & Watch: YOU THOUGHT I WAS DONE?? *_DOWN AIR_*
Parachute + Key = Parakeet.
I don't think he is too broken I just think he is like one of the least honest characters in the game
I mean, everyone needs a little jank to be good, but this is too far
The original Hero imo
He's a counter to jank.
@@blackraptormoses6838 bruh what do you mean? He *is* the jank
@@chrispo7610 not even remotely true
Y’all leave mr game and watch alone. Now that he’s finally decent he’s a problem 😂😭 let us have this
Exactly. Everyone was fine with game and watch "being bad" but the second people see him as "being good" people say he's op and hate on him like if that isint the biggest bruh moment I've seen idk what is
Falco is decent. Rosalina is decent. G&W is undoubtedly one of the most annoying characters in the game (which is why this video exists). Of course he’s a problem when the devs give him problematic attributes.
He isn’t “decent” he’s really really fuckin good dude
@@atomicwiththreeos I haven't seen him in many peoples' top 10s or even top 15 on tier lists
@@KidAL0 gnw is glass cannon character
I hate online GnW but not offline. They always have crap connection and abuse it.
Lol as a game and watch main with ass internet I can agree but sometimes it's a double edged sword
Literally every Gnw I see just defaults to using ftilt when they literally whiff anything
and dtilt. Both are fast and mindless lol.
"You've met your *match."*
"Stop! *Hammer time."*
@@VoluXian yeah, but d-tilt can't hit airborne opponents, only when they are on the ground, and its a tad slower than f-tilt.
However, it kills earlier, and you are crouching during the attack, so you may dodge some attacks and grabs
Honestly this just gave me tips for playing G&W
Flat zone 1 music stay the hardest
While yes you can technically punish his recovery, it's invincible from frame 5-13, so, uh, yea...
The thing is, his recovery puts him in a bad position. Sure you can dair, but it's easily read and has some end lag on impact.
@@ved95 just grab the ledge 4Head
@@Porygo Hey maybe if people used their brain and played patiently, the up B becomes very predictable and avoiding it isn't too difficult. From there G&W's slow air speed and predictable dair allow you to punish him. People who can't do this are just unable to play patiently and wait for G&W to open himself up.
@@Porygo Yes but the thing is you should never be hitting gw shield head on. Thats just not playing smart. Instead using shield pokes and ranged attacks is more useful. I DO see how it could be considered annoying though, even though his options out of up B are limited and since his air speed is slow, he's easy to chase. Good point though i see your point about how fast it is and how it cant be crossed.
Game and Watch has the most loyal fanbase i’ve ever seen i love it
And, as Grayfruit says: He's a glass cannon character with more emphasis on glass
When your frame data is so good that it covers most of your spam it means almost nothing that you are light or heavy
Pandinus we cannot spam meaninglessly, especially at kill percent, cause any disjointed option will probably kill and most of our best kill options aren’t great on approach. Also trying to play vs heavy characters means that we are very liable to die sub 70 if our approach gets read.
@@elllllllllliot depends, most heavies can be easily gimped and die from a combo or a single aerial off stage at dunno 40 or 50.
Plus not everyone has disjoints, and a bunch of these light characters also have access to disjoints
@@thanks721 hey I think I do, as a heavy main my locals are 90% using light to mid/light chars, I've been playing them for years thats pretty much the only matchup I know, in fact whenever my wi-fi doesn't die and I go online I'm always weirded out whenever I fight other heavies lmao.
My main is dorf wich is the worst offender of "can dish it out but can't keep up" but other heavies like bowser definitely have a much better time with the insane speed, super armor and surprisingly fast moves
His up b is the only fast move. Maybe jab. Everyone who can't out space him has better frame data. (Pichu, Squirtle, Kirby, honestly Kirby can out space him but prefers not to)
As soon as I saw the video title I was like "oh, this is going to be a video about up B". That move is b a n a n a s
As someone who plays R.O.B. and G&W, I enjoy watching people go through pain and complain about my character picks. It always brings a special joy to my heart.
there is special place in hell for losers like you
@@Ekmos- And It's a very respectful and welcoming one.
I see I’m not the only sadist game and watch player out there.
Oh R.O.B. is combo candy for my Shiek.
g&w before Maister: Eh... he's a low tier character..
g&w after Maister: WTF !?!?!? Broken character!!! BANN!!
The best part about GNW is he is the only character that actually beats the Rat. It is so lovely seeing Pickachu get tormented the same way he does to most of the cast.
In all seriousness though, GNW only being good for taking out the Rat is not a good sign of Ults meta. Ideally I would change both chars
GNW:
-Reduced Hitboxes on Up B so opponents. Make so were Up B is still big but not as unpunishable as it currently is.
-Remove I Frames on Up B. Perfect example of Smash characters having random I frames on certain moves
-Up Smash invincibility is only on the Head
The Rat: I really hate this character but to avoid gutting him
-Increased hurtbox size in all forms
-Delete Pancaking
-More endlag on Tjolt and QA
I know there is this debate of buffing worse characters instead of nerfing the top tiers. Issue is that GNW and Pickachu strong points would require mass buffs in order to weaken them.
-Massive buff to Grabs in Range,Frame Data, Available combos and confirms, and kill power for GNW
-Massive hitbox and mobility buffs do that characters can actually hit and punish Pickachu
The Impersonator as a pikachu main ive been hating game and watch from the beginning,I knew from the start he was my worst match up besides ness,maybe that’s just me though.anyway I don’t think neither the characters should be nerfed.pikachu is super light and dies pretty quickly so the hurt box nerd would make him like how olimar was.his t jolt has a lot more end lag than it looks so if a pika spams it you can close the distance by running in.i don’t mind it getting nerfed though since I don’t abuse that move like I should.if quick attack gets nerfed I think it might hurt pika a lot since that’s his only escape option,maybe make it so that it stops on shield?for game and watch I hate him but I don’t want to see him get nerfed since he was never good until now and he would be like Pichu,was good and fun but than pooped on by nerfs,I don’t like seeing characters getting nerfed.
Agreed. GnW should give that yellow turd complete hell.
Pikachu NEEDS a larger hitbox. So many times online, it feels like when I attack it, my moves phase through or don't connect.
Sick of getting juggled by it whenever I am not playing a certain character to counter it. Game and Watch is unironically less frustrating.
@@mcgamerboi3523 I would disagree with a lot. A lot of characters have a nighmarish time actually hitting and punishing Pickachu due to his Pancaking and hurtboxes issues. This makes it a lot harder to kill him than it should be unless you are like Mario, but few characters in Ult have good hitboxes for short characters. Pickachu is so hard to hit that he even beats a lot of sword characters, despite him being designed to lose to them.
If Pickachu want to he can camp most of the cast with ease between QA and TJolt. If characters with Reflectors can struggle with him.
QA invalidates Edgeguarding and Ledge Trapping, while also making it so that a lot of characters cant juggle or corner Pickachu. I feel more endlag it is pretty fair all things considered.
Mario.
@@theimpersonator7086 As a Pika main, I agree with increased hurtbox to prevent pancaking. It really wouldn't be too big of a deal imo, but I'm not a pro like Esam. For up-b nerfs, the best thing to do is make it stop on shields. That way, it can actually be punished if you anticipate it, and would feel more rewarding for Pika players when they hit their opponent with it. I feel like this would be enough to keep Pika's strengths just the way they are, while making his weaknesses actually noticeable.
Based off his strengths and flaws, it seems the best way to beat G&W is to be super defensive. He seems to be dependent off the opponent being aggressive. But can't do too much if he is the one being aggressive.
This is true honestly
In certain match ups g&w can be aggressive.
Yeah casual players just run straight into him and get punished, then they don't DI so that's prolly why there's so much hate. I can't stress as a g&w main how annoying it is when someone has zoning tools or lots of ground speed and just pokes you and camps the whole game. It's just about impossible to win. I mean really, try doing two falco lasers then snuff out whatever approach option he uses. None of his approach options except maybe back air beat anybody else's options if you play reactively.
Alternate title: Why you should main or secondary G&W.
That's me currently haha
I love G&W
can confirm, i main G&W and hate every part of him.
"It's because he's black, isn't it?"
Personally I’d rather play a game and watch than any of the links, duck hunt, mega man, or banjo
The last one hurts me but at the same time
*i honestly don't blame you, at all*
@JustFunKiro unlike those other characters a campy samus sucks and is easy to beat. Campy banjo and snake are pretty frustrating imo
David why not the links? Is it cause they projectile spam cause I don’t do that or if you find their easy to gimp recovery annoying (speaking from someone who got spiked by a Mac) idk then
Online banjo is absolute cancer
id argue against Megaman. cuz his zoning cant kill and is really obvious
I learnt good things here, I didn't know of the hitbox sizes and the invulnerability on the up-smash. Nice. Thank you!
I haven't seen many of your videos before, but this was really well done. Good stuff, Larry :)
“Can we really look at our fellow man and look down upon them?”
*Looks at G&W mains*
“Yes, yes we can.”
ive always loved game n watch, cant lie hes one of the most interesting characters in the game
Man I really like your content larry! It contains reasonable information and thus feels way more high quality than many of the guides out there right now.
I’m kind of late but can you maybe do a series on this? I feel like I learned about so much data from the way you explained it. Really love the way you show what you’re talking about in training mode as well. Seeing a sort of series on this for multiple characters would be really neat.
I love that hes good in this game. He deserves it. I cant play him though;
Playing him feels like trying to draw a circle without moving my wrist, fingers, or elbow. Its weird
In my dreams:
Update notes: *removed Mr. Game and watch*
Spectacular video my man! You've done an excellent job covering Mr. Game & Watch's strengths and weaknesses in a fairly succinct way. Kuddos!!
Fun fact: forward air detonated when it hits the ground, making it a good pre-landing option and anti-platform tool.
Makes me sad because I've been a Game & Watch player since Smash 4, and now people hate him because they made him good :(
It's not because they made him good, but they made him ungodly annoying, similarly to Zelda, who's actually cool in other games where she's viable, like PM and smash flash 2
Been maiming him since brawl because he was so silly
not because he is good people hate him because they made him annoying and unhonest
Remember
He can also combo jab to the bucket
and to up b
and the landing hit box of downair.
Wait really? Do you have a video of this?
@@yourboy9236 watch maister play against literally anyone with energy based projectiles
Your Boy i watch maister here and there and i havent seen it yet hm
thx for the guide ill go straight to quickplay for practice
He went from having the worst shield to the best, what a turn around.
I have a god damn fear of chairs. Can't sit when i play smash anymore
Do you love killing people by accident?
Have you ever dreamed of being launched into orbit at 40%?
How about force feeding your opponent untill they leave the game?
If you said yes to all of those then G&W might be your new main
albino, you fucken idiot
Finally, after being garbage tier for YEARS G&W is good lmao
"why does everyone hate game and watch"
long answer, Up B and down air
short answer, 🆙️🅱️ - 👇💨
I think I'd rather go with the long answer since I have to find the emojis that are misplaced in the Emoji Section of the phone...
D smash gets people riled up more than d air
A lot of this could be solved if Up B just put him in helpless. His aerials should stay strong because he’s pretty lightweight. But his up B being helpless weakens his premier OOS option. Except on stages with platforms
mr mwm He’s not broken though, no need to nerf him
Naqromancer My guy did you watch the video
mr mwm yeah he did and he isn’t broken except up smash
Joe Mama How do you know he did
And he isnt broken but that particular option is OD
mr mwm that made no sense
"i'll explain" don't have to. in the first clip maister punished esam for punishing his whiffed up smash lol
The scariest thing about Game and Watch Oil Panic us that it can be true combo-ed from a singular jab
I love when they say that these are the lightest characters and yet their small size and their frame data is so fast that its double the work to even get a hit in
Everyone remember that dsmash isn't safe on block in fact it's pretty punishable
What Maister has done, proud of the boy.
I'm a G&W main in every single smash game (not in 64 for obvious reasons), because I love his playstyle and his jankiness, that's the reason why the tier list means nothing for me and my love for the character...well, until now.
I remember when at the beginning of the game the character was considered bad, for his new fair, uair, down-tilt and other (stupid) things, Zero put him in the bottom tier just above Little Mac in version 2.0.1, and even at the time I onestly thought that he was better than that, not a high-tier but a mid-tier character at least, then the months passed.....and passed.....and passed until people started to realize that he was indeed a good character.
And immediately after people started to complain about his up-b and his down-smash, two things that have been in the game since december 2018, this infuriated me, not for the complaints themsleves, I was infuriated with the "pecoroni".
I'm Italian and pecoroni means: "big sheeps", we usually use this word when someone follows a person or and opinion without thinking about it, a large part of the smash community IS full of these sheeps, why?
For the pecoroni if a top player puts a character a in a certain tier it automatically means that it's true, they don't try to go through or to think about it, they just accept It.
Then people start to call you a "cancer", I repeat, just because some pro player changed his mind, that's sad and pathetic.
Do i think he's broken? In some ways yes, but guys, remember the FACT that he's received veeeery few buffs since the beginning and this controversy started recently.
yoshi’s egg throw attack is a good counter because it can create distance and you have the ability to change the trajectory of each throw
Basically Up 🅱️ OOS
You forgot to add that he has not only the safest but also the most useful jab in the game for all purposes since the first hit is a guaranteed mixup, you can eat around 30-40% damage if he traps you on the ledge and it can also kill
This video is such high quality. I'm blown away.
Bomb underrated! My favorite kill option because it always turns heads. It feel like an afterlife kill in cod lol
PM Players: "First time?"
The only real problem(s) I have with G&W are his animations.
His moves tend to have 2-3 animation frames with no keyfames in between. The total frames of his moves being short as hell compared to the majority of the cast makes him incredibly difficult to whiff punish.
That being said, Maister's bait and bait and bait and punish playstyle is a treat to watch. Glad he achieved his goal of top 2 at a super major. Can't wait to see him at the top.
This video low key inspired me to play game and watch and was a better guide to playing than most videos
Down air- Up B- Back/Neutral/Up air= one of the easiest and best combos to make.
(NOTE:only really tends to work on lower percentages
I love light is getting destroyed by game & watch in the background.
Game & watch should be nerfed but by a tiny bit. I mean like 1 thing, I don't main game & watch and I don't want to see him be nerfed really hard.
Also, great vid larry.
Hes needs a small nerf
buff other characters, indirect nerfing is more fun for everyone
I'm a G&W main, but I thing I heard said alot before all the new complaints is spot dodge to down smash, *and repeat*, but yeah just make that a less safe option in some way and that's all I'll say
Nerf up b
Honestly, if they just gave down smash and up smash more lag and made Up B a little worse at setting up juggles then G&W would be a perfectly reasonable character.
Idk why people bandwagon hate G&W when Fox's bread and butter is just his up smash and Joker exist lol
What about hero lol
Like how this dude made this video on the day that maister got to grand finals
As a really advanced mr game and watch player. I can say that i have hit people with the parachute multiple times and also used it to escape out of trouble if things look rough. I even managed to dodge multiple final smashes like inkling killer wail and samus's final smash
Imagine playing against this character online with the token 15 frames of input lag. Literally why am i even playing at that point? I wish this game wasnt so dumb:(
honestly there are ALOT of really stupid things in this game.
true but wheres MRS game and watch, surley this people would hate HER less :flushed
Someone called me?
End lag? Haven’t heard that word in a long time
9:04 ah yes, the rare game & watches in their natural habitat
Unpopular opinion
I don’t main Game and Watch and like him
Same
Same here
I play g&w and everyone hates me wtf
Bruxtle I hate you
@@elijahmcgill3137 why
Bruxtle just jokes😂 I just suck at the matchup
@@elijahmcgill3137 oh ok
@@elijahmcgill3137 fight me
Me as a casual Smash player who secondaries G&W, this pleases me.
DO MORE OF THESE LARRY
About time for Mr.G&W to become a viable threat. This is a good timeline.
Except his playstyle is degenerate and braindead so its not very good for ults metagame. Literally spam smash atks in neutral and never get punished.
@@kkokay4 lmao you can easily punish down smash and side smash. And if you play clever even up smash. Just because you cant be brain dead while fighting him doesnt mean he has a degenerate playstyle, it only means you need to get better at the match up. Stop crying about it lmao
G&W has the problem that he is only good if you play him optimally. Then playing him optimally is just boring to watch once you understand what is going on.
me is exist does his hammers extend his hurtbox on down smash?
@@njkool8859 no? They are hammers. Do swords extend the hurtbox of the swordies? Of course not that would be stupid.
I main Game and Watch, it feels surreal to have your character being the center of hatred after almost two decades of his existence.
It's also funny as hell.
2 decades of existence, you mean 4 decades of his existence.
Sonic is afraid of how fucking fast that chair is
Little correction on Oil Panic. Game & watch is NOT invulnerable when using Oil Panic as an attack. The only intangibility he receives is when absorbing something.
“Just learn the matchup”
-every GnW player
Me: "Hey maybe Ganondorf should have a frame 7 up b"
Ganon haters: "that would be op"
G&W: sweats nervously.
Whats
His up b is also invincible for 5 frames or so during startup
Two reasons why I hate him:
1. Kills almost every character at 0% with a 9
2. N O F U C K I N G E N D L A G
I feel like Game & Watch is hated because of his moves & animations look and act janky
Yeah that aspect makes him impossible to telegraph effectively.
He's also a pain in the ass
I main him but he's really annoying to fight against (If I'm not using my secondary or someone else good).
It's a matter of matchup knowledge. His moves have ambiguous startup but extremely distinct animations. After maining G&W for three smash games I know his ins & outs far well enough to be able to play against him without much trouble telegraphic-wise. Playing around his shield is much tougher, because even if you know the matchup, you just simply can't touch his shield recklessly and there's no amount of game knowledge that can change that fact.
@@gothtearz I think the same thing about Palutena, I main her but she's annoying to fight against
Do a “Why everyone hates Bowser”....I don’t know but I feel like anybody who uses him actually gets carried, but maybe I’m just terrible playing with Bowsers 💀
His command grab is BS, tbh he needs a decent nerf.
It is absolutely your fault if you do badly against bowsers. Whether they are carried or not, you should be able to see your mistakes instead of just making excuses regarding the game.
As a Bowser main, I do get a lot of mean looks at the character select screen, but Bowser has tons of bad matchups. Tough guy is a mean passive ability, and if you forget and go into a rapid jab, then you'll get punished really hard. Tbh the best counter would be a stage where both his down air and down b can't get him safely, like Lylat cruise. Otherwise, Bowser can be comboed for days because he's huge, so just choose a character that can latter combo like Mario and you'll probably be fine. He also struggles a little against super projectile heavy characters like Plant or Zelda. Also be mindful of his up b out of shield, which I'd argue is 2nd best to Game and Watch purely because of the speed and duration of the hitbox. Hope that helped! Lmk if you'd like to know more about him! I don't think he needs and buffs or nerfs in my opinion.
MoistNugget thank you, I’ll try to adapt
CoolCids Clan thank you too!! Honestly people like you in the smash community is needed, not toxic ones, I appreciate your help!
I'm a Game and Watch main myself, and I must say that play with Maister and Zackray with Chef was brilliant
As a Game & Watch main, I feed off of your pain. Go on. Complain. Each pained cry shortens Up-b by a fraction of a frame. Give us the frame 1 up-b.