@@arianrahman5886 Moffat is a talented and creativley brimming writer and nobody can tell me otherwise. Although I wasn't fan of some his plots, they were at least understandably creative.
Police Box Tardis is probably somehow related to his/her time in the Division and not the one he stole. Maybe the broken one he stole choose that form because of some residual psychic link? Not sure. Just trying to make somehow sense of all of this.
Maybe it was still using the chameleon feature, and since the doctor was there, and was used to a police box, it camouflaged to look like something that wouldn't be a surprise for her to see? Just a theory and i don't think it would make that much sense since Ruth doctor knew what it was going to look like(or seemed to) when she said this is my ship
@CartoonishIdealism. It sort of does but also opens it to not be, as RuthDoctor doesn't actually answer when asked if she is one of the 'previous' ones. Maybe it will be explained that she is actually between 2 and 3 as some fans theorised before, thus explaining the police box. Otherwise it doesn't work. I did hear another fan theory that the Doctor only perceived the Tardis as a police box because that's what she is used to, a sort of personal perception filter, I guess that would work but its a bit of a cop out and really only so we could get the shock factor of seeing the Tardis buried in Fugitive of the Judoon.
My theory is that the Ruth-Doctor is from another timeline where she escaped from Gallifrey before they could manipulate her memories. It would also explain why they are searching for her because after her services in the Division she was supposed to forget the things she done but she still has the knowledge which could be dangerous for example because she did illegal things.
The Master should've been the Timeless Child. This would TRULY make the Master's hate for the Timelords completely understandable. Plus, there's something about the most important man being a psycho and the source of the doctors powers (and the doctor feeling guilty using it) which sounds kinda epic.
That’s what I thought- I thought there would be a big reveal that it was The Master and that he just told The Doctor that to mess with her, or convince her to join him in the destruction of Gallifrey and the Timelords
Have they retconned anything from new who yet, classic has always been a mess so it’s impossible not to retcon that but I can’t think of it happening these days
@@custard_paradox Chris Chibnall: "No, it's "Gallifrey falls once again"" Showrunner: "Chris, my man, you're a genius!" Chris: "Thank you, Chris ... I mean showrunner, I mean ... eh ... timey wimey ...?"
He does not regenerate, Love takes over bodies as if it were a parasite. He was then revived with a new regenerative cycle to be a soldier in Time War.
The Master's anger would have made more sense if he were the timeless child. Angry that the timelords experimented on him and hid the truth from him. That would have been better motivation for him to destroy them
But even the master ran out of regenerations in the classic era and took over Tremas and Eric’s body in the movie. So how could the master possibly be the Timeless Child?! This whole thing is such a bad idea. Aren’t the Master, Rani and the Doctor supposedly like siblings or something like that… or hinted to be? I know that’s never been really confirmed but I don’t see how the timeless child could be anyone we really know. Heck we don’t fully know why the Fugitive Doctor was on the run in the first place. Maybe the Doctor learned about the timeless child and refused to take part in the Division and wanted to protect the child from the timelords. But because the Doctor was determined in finding the timeless child and saving them, the timelords finally captured the Doctor and wiped their memories to stop the Doctor. Maybe the swarm are the timeless child and sought to fight the Doctor because they believed the Doctor was just like the rest of the timelords. I just still believe that there is room for all this to come together and that the Doctor and neither the master are the timeless children but someone new and unheard of but hinted at before across the series. Who knows?!… But I am hopeful that the conclusion will be much more satisfying and interesting then anyone has thought of yet. Keep your hopes up!
@@fdr8343 how could the doctor possibily be the timeless child? We saw at 11's regeneration that he literally couldn't regenerate until the regeneration energy came from the crack
@@splatinumm I said the timeless child can’t be someone we know on screen. The character, the identity of the timeless child must be someone new. It can’t be the Master or The Doctor. Wouldn’t make sense.
@@fdr8343 It's really just a theory but I think the time lords took away the timeless child's infinite regenerations somehow in order to stop it from becoming more powerful and become a threat. I still don't like the idea of the Doctor being the timeless child, I think it would work best if they were the master as it brings something a bit new to him. It's also not like the Doctor whose regenerations we know, the Master has lots of empty squares that could potentially be the timeless child (it also gives him a better motive to destroy Gallifrey). Having it be the Master makes it interesting while not destroying everything we love about the series.
About the ending: I hate how the Doctor just left that one TARDIS - a living, sentient creature - on the side of the road like some broken down car, and then basically said "sucks to be you", before abandoning it on a deserted Earth.
I agree that it's sad for that Tardis to be alone but what should the Doctor have done? She can't just fly two and she went through so much with her Tardis. Maybe one day there is somebody who is worthy of getting a Tardis of their own but until then I think it's better for this Tardis to be on a planet full of life than on a completely dead Gallifrey.
TARDISes aren't just simple lifeforms that get bored or lonely, especially with their deep connection to time. Remember in The Doctors Wife? The TARDIS doesn't even have a linear perspective of time and events
Heck, the whole point of that was that that wasn’t the answer that mattered, but who would say said answer. Who the Doctor is doesn’t matter, that’s what they do that does. The episode thatself concludes with this, why’d we need this stupid retcon?
Probably for the same reasons he needed to obtain more regenerations from the Timelords. After finding out about the regeneration rule they must have tempered with the Doctor's DNA in order to maybe limit the regenerations in order to keep the secret
Probably because they hadn’t thought this bit up yet. They are trying to squeeze this into it, barely. By doing this, I guess it implies the doctor didn’t know he’d regenerate. He would have still thought he only had 12 regenerations when in fact he had so many more.
The Master has previously run out of Regenerations, become a walking corpse, possessed someone else to keep living, died permanently, and been brought back by the Time Lords. He can't be the Timeless Child.
@@Caroniver_Robocacci Well, technically... you're mentioning more facts that he could be the Timeless Child than not. Or wait... were you being sarcastic? It's just none of those show it's impossible to have a past self before the Master, those are personal achievements after the Timeless Child and the creation of Gallifrey society. He can still be the Timeless Child and do those things. Personally, I don't think it's the Master, too much ego for him... but hey, the answer could always be less linear.
@@ReversedPolarity The Timeless Child is immortal. Unlimited Regenerations. While the Doctor not Regenerating in Time of the Doctor can be attributed to them never really dying, the Master straight-up +runs out of Regenerations_ . It was a huge plot point. If the Master were the Timeless Child, _The Deadly Assassin_ would be completely invalidated.
@@Caroniver_Robocacci Well, while you can point out the events of the Doctor's death as a potential red herring, another possibility is the facts stay true to what we know. After all, the Doctor still needed the extra boost and was also provided by the only Time Lord who stayed immortal - Rassilon. As for the Master, it's a good point and I sometimes see it in the comments, but does it invalidate his future altogether?... Well, not exactly (as I explain below). In the expanded lore (not that you need it to make sense of it), Rassilon made the twelve regeneration cycle to avoid the issues caused by immortality (as well as to fulfill his egotistical needs), and that was a rule all Time Lords had to abide, even the Doctor, so there could've been a way to cut down immortality. Even if the Master or the Doctor kept regenerating, just like any Time Lord would before Rassilon's judgement, the base cycle would have to be reset at 12, at least if the facts remain true. Another possibility is Rassilon searched for immortality and kept the secret - but what is the need for that if Time Lord genetics already allowed that? Plus, he wasn't a scholar like Borusa, or a clever cog like Omega. As for the Master, we know he looked at the Untempered Schism during his initiation rituals, so he was exposed by the winds of the Time Vortex, just like the Timeless Child and that's a plot point too, so him becoming the Timeless Child isn't all that farfetched either. You can also consider the possibility of the title for the finale (the Timeless Children)... hinting that maybe the Timeless Child could be a hybrid, meaning there could be a different person before the Master with an independent set of regenerations, thus not invalidating the Deadly Assassin. The same point applies to the Doctor too. Personally, I don't think the Master is a part of that hybrid either since there is a better candidate, but... you never know.
Great, now her introduction is going to be "I'm the Doctor, I'm a unknown species, from an unknown planet and I was once captured by a scavenger race who experimented on me, stealing my identity and everything special"
I don't like this because of how much it retcons so much-- I'm actually down with the Doctor being at odds with the Time Lords and being an unknown alien.
I saw it coming, but it would make way more sense if it was the master. Explains why he regenerated so much. The first TV master was the twelfth regeneration. After that he still regenerated a few times.
He does not regenerate, Love takes over bodies as if it were a parasite. He was then revived with a new regenerative cycle to be a soldier in Time War.
Actually he never regenerated after Delgado until his Utopia regeneration, he just stole the bodies of Ainely and Roberts and then was resurrected in the Time War as Jacobi
It wasn't 10 seasons of trying to save Gallifrey, it was a special that retconned the Doctor into having a secret Doctor that wasn't the doctor because they fought in a war. That 9 and 10 owned up to fighting in. Followed by a season of Matt Smith not bothering to find Gallifrey, and a 2nd special that showed Gallifrey in one of them cracks that erases memories of everything that goes into it. And then Gallifrey was saved off screen by 12, and he never bothered visiting it until time lords kidnapped him for 20 minutes before he left without a care in the world. At least 13 showed some emotion at stepping back on Gallifrey, even if it was to see the ruins.
Moffet was the one who wrote Gallifrey back into the story, only to have them hide outside of time, and then be scolded by the Doctor then then forgotten about.
@@Carts45 fair enough. Making a regenerating baby because 2 time travelers banged in the Tardis doesn't make sense to me. Or creating an immortal being out of the carcass of a dead girl and a space lozenge. So is Doctor Why a spin off or parody? If it's a spin off will we get appearances from Doctor Who? If a parody, which Doctor Who do you want parodied?
And it totally destroyed the mystery of the Doctor! I think that explaining everything just ruins the mystery for the audience. For example, we don’t know what the Meta-Crisis Doctor whispered into Rose’s ear, but we can imagine what was said.
@NovaWolf Gaming The 12th doctor sums up well exactly who the doctor is supposed to be. "An idiot with a screwdriver and a box, travelling through the universe, helping out when he can" making that person the pinnacle reason why the most advance civilization is a product of the doctor is unbelievably stupid and just uninteresting. let me ask you this, you said "doesn't that make us ask the question again though?" well to that I say....do you really care enough to wanna know?
@NovaWolf Gaming Well good news friend i can refresh your memory. The Doctor is a time lord from a planet called galifrey, he has two hearts, stupid clothes, a screwdriver and a time machine he uses to go on adventures and help out when he can. that's the character of the doctor you claim to love if you care about the timeless child then im sorry but i don't think we care about the same character. in my gods honest personal opinion.
@NovaWolf Gaming "the doctor is but the character isn't" oi vay that's actually sad to see that honestly, the doctor is the character my friend lol. I do care about the show trust me, and it wasn't completely failing, quite honestly it was doing just fine. but ironically ever since Chibnall's era has come out the ratings have plummet dramatically. and as you can see by the rest of this comment section, I'm not in the minority of people who hate this era, in fact, almost all you see is hate for the timeless child and this era it wasn't failing before, but it certainly is now :)
This makes no sense at all. 1. If the Doctor is not a time lord, why do they have two hearts and other aspects of time lord biology? 2. Why can River Song regenerate? 3. Why did the Doctor have to be granted more regenerations in season 7? 4. Didn't Rassilon found time lord society? 5. Why wasn't the Doctor more revered, rather than simply being treated as an eccentric? 6. What about the family/families the Doctor has had? Were they born with their "unique" abilities, and why weren't they subject to study? 7. Why didn't Clara see any of the Doctor's supposed pre-Hartnell regenerations in the time stream? I can sorta overlook her not seeing his future selves because they hadn't happened yet, but that is now a gaping plothole. 8. What narrative purpose does any of this reveal serve, besides needlessly changing over 50 years of lore and turning the show's main character into some pre-destined chosen one, rather than a traveler simply trying to do the right thing.
1. They lied. That is their credo. 2. She was created from his symbiotic link to the Tardis. 3. They just jump started his/her limited battery capacity. 4. Rassilon was probably the step mother who experimented on her. 5. Because the future generations didn't know the truth. Only Rassilon did as he/she had a limitless regeneration cycle as well. 6. The regeneration power cannot be inherited apparently. 7. It puts weight behind the old theories that the Doctor is truly immortal in a sense. Bridging the canon.
1: Maybe the Time Lords got the Doctor's biology, and not the other way around. 2: River Song can regenerate because she was conceived in the Time Vortex, which might have been made by the Time Lords with the powers they gained from the Doctor's biology. 3: Either, the Time Lords successfully limited the Doctor's regenerations and gave him back the ability at the end of season 7, or he didn't regenerate because he didn't know he could regenerate, and the Time Lords gave him more regeneration energy to make him think he could do it again and to keep the secret. Or actually, they might not even have known themselves. 4: Rassilon could still be one of the founders of Time Lord society. 5: The Time Lords who knew who the Doctor was, might have feared her/him, and most of the Gallifreyans probably wouldn't know. The few who did, probably wanted all the power for themselves, and didn't want anyone to know. This could also be a mystery for another time in future episodes. 6: I don't know whether you mean the original or adoptive families. Neither we nor the Time Lords know anything about the Doctor's original family, and the adoptive families she/he might have had during her/his lives were probably just normal Gallifreyans and perhaps some times Time Lords. If you mean the original family, we might find out more next season. 7: Good question. I'd love to have that answered myself. This could all still just be a big elaborate lie either by the Master of the Time Lords. There are more ways for it to be false than true. Yet we cannot deny that either way could work with decent writers.
I know Doctor says time lord to describe the species that live on Gallifrey but that’s not the case. The phrase time lord refers to beings with the ability to regenerate and have studied time and space to some degree in the academy. Being a time lord is Gallifrey’s version having a Phd. So not all time lords are gallifreyan and not all gallifreyans are time lords. Technically river song is a human time lord(hence her single heart and other human attributes). And the general public of gallifrey doesn’t have the ability to regenerate but still have two hearts.
Josh Kruszyna 1) they used the doctors genes to form Gallifreyan biology. Over time they grew two hearts. Could be linked to regeneration also. 2) River can regenerate because of the time vortex. We don’t know where the doctor got the regeneration cycle from, like whether it was innate or whether it was from the vortex - but most likely it will be because of the vortex 3) someone suggested that the Time Lords could have done this to keep the fact that the doctor has more regeneration cycles secret. And we don’t know if the Gallifreyans gave the Doctor a set amount of regenerations after they “ reset” him 4) The Master said the Time Lords had been lying. This is most likely a part of the cover up. 5) the Time Lords tried to keep this a secret to make themselves seem high and mighty. If this was something that they had actually stole from a child instead of them just basically being genetically superior, that would make them inferior. They’re very clearly stuck up 6) we don’t know. Hell, they could have been experimented on. There could have been tests. Who knows. Maybe the Time Lords didn’t because they had to keep it a secret, and experimenting on the Doctor’s children would raise questions. 7) the Time Lords erased the Doctor’s memories, allowing the Doctor to live a life as the Doctor sees fit. This gives the Doctor the freedom to be a madman in a box. The Doctor is just trying to do the right thing. They never knew their past. This doesn’t negate from the character. It just adds a backstory and some more mystery and anguish for the Doctor herself.
Chibnall managed to take a big, greasy dump on almost 60 years of backstory within a single episode. By trying to make The Doctor more special by nature of her origin, he made her less special by her actions. I miss the “Madman with a box”. The person who was willing to sacrifice himself to save Wilfred Mott. Now we have an immortal who lets someone else sacrifice themselves while she runs away.
The Eccleston/Tennant era of doctor who cannot be topped. They are what got me into doctor who and they are my doctors. If doctor who was like that I’d still be watching it.
tm selection Whats wrong with Fairy Tales? And no, that portion of the show wasn’t even like fairy tale. It was Doctor Who. This recent crap might be your cup of tea but I and many others watched Doctor Who because it was different, because it showed a better way of living your life not because it was just another of a million stories written till date. All typical stories where the hero is born special. Has superpowers or some magic. All stories where the hero goes on a journey and fights and fails and then learns... so cliche and lame. Chibnall just killed the core of the show. He ruined the core of the Doctor, the ‘mad man in a box’ is now a billions years old random immortal kid who doesn’t even remember his own life.
Rampant Mutt Yea, tbh I quite liked Moffat and Davis’ writing. But I don’t like Chibnall’s. I mean with Moffat and Davis there are a couple bad episodes but mostly good ones imo, but with Chibnall it’s like reversed.
If Timelords got regeneration from experiments and not from prolonged exposure to Time Travel. Then how did River have regenerations since neither of her parents were Timelords which means that it would literally have been impossible for her to have the ability to regenerate
Because it wasn't merely exposure to the time vortex that created River, but also Madame Kovarian altering her to turn her into the perfect weapon to kill the Doctor.
@@nugagim yeah but we're discussing regenerations. If it's Timelord science then it can't be replicated so River shouldn't be able to. And yet she can. Chibnall ignored the decades worth of precedent just because he couldn't let go of the Morbius Doctors. This isn't a showrunner taking a show in new directions, it's a man making his fanfics canon
@@TheAnakinchosen1 there's no reason Time Lord science couldn't be replicated. Science can be replicated by definition. Also they don't have to replicate Time Lord science, -Tecteun was pre-Time Lord and managed to figure out how to reproduce regeneration.
@@nugagim you’re ignoring the fact river is half human and half timelord….do you think they experimented on river in the tiny span she was alive with dna i doubt they had, because i think its more likely than that being that rory like people jokes was the master or the doctor is his wifes father
Remember when the 10th Doctor sacrificed himself to save Wilf? Furiously screaming at how it wasn’t fair, solely because he KNEW he wasn’t, for one second, going to let someone die when he could take their place. 13th Doctor: “See ya!”
Or 12th sacrificed himself to just delay, not stop, delay the inevitable attack on the refugees by the Cybermen. Thirteen is a spineless coward who doesn't behave like the Doctor even when literally just finding out she can die and regenerate limitlessly so it's no loss. New canon: Thirteen isn't the Doctor.
I get your point but I do wanna point out that 10 and 12 both knew they'd regenerate, while 13 was facing imminent final death while just having been told that her entire life was a lie. I thought letting one of the few remaining humans finish the job was a little cheap myself, but I can get why they did it.
@@elliot20201 No 10 actually believed he was going to die that's why he broke down but saved Wilfred anyway thinking he was going to his death, and Twelve was regenerating but after delaying the cyberman with exploding the level they were on, he didn't regenerate, he actually did die he literally sacrificed himself just for the mondasians to live a little longer, he only got brought back to life because of a magical tear or whatever
My interpretation was that the Doctor was unable to press the button not because she didn't want to die, but because she didn't want to kill. The Master says "Become death. Become me." She knows that if she presses the button, and commits genocide, she will be no better than the Master. It's a similar situation to the Fourth Doctor's famous moral dilemma in "Genesis of the Daleks". Even though he knew the Daleks would bring death and destruction, he still couldn't bring himself to wipe them out.
Does anybody remember when regeneration was a big event? One so powerful that it broke several parts of the tardis when he did it? Isn’t do special anymore huh?
Well the Classic series didn’t remember that. Besides like Troughton’s death, regenerations tended to just happen. It was Tennant’s regeneration that destroyed the TARDIS and I will never forgive it for that trend
@@samuelbarber6177 This is new who tho, gonna be honest, the old regenerations were a bit boring. All of the doctors new generations, hell even the masters first regeneration in utopia, were all exciting, the first moments of the nergy,nd excitement as the tardis crashes and the doctor learns their new body, and it always built up anticipation for the next series
Kriisan Sundaram my point is this doesn’t really do much to cheapen regeneration. Even if there are a lot of them, this version of the Doctor would still be gone. Also, there are people saying that ‘Now the Doctor is immortal’ but people also defend ‘I don’t wanna go’ by saying regeneration is like death. So can they die or not. Either regeneration is like death or the Doctor is immortal. That’s neither here nor there though. I just wanted to put that out there.
Wait, how is it not special anymore? When did it lose its mystery/appeal? Ok, I have a few questions for you then, if you can answer at least three of them correctly and without a doubt, I could potentially rethink your question. I think it's only fair. 1) Do you know how many regenerations the Doctor has? 2) Do you know how many regenerations the Doctor has left? 3) Were there previous incarnations before Hartnell? If yes, say why and who they are. If no, just say why not. 4) Why are the Doctor's regenerations apparently more explosive than other Time Lords'? 5) And here's an easy one (related to your topic) - why did regenerations become more explosive over time while the 12th Doctor got a normal regeneration into 13th?
Doctor Who was a show about a quirky space adventurer and their friends as they went on equally quirky and space adventures. It was simple and straightforward, yet charming and bursting to the seams with creativity. The Doctor wasn't the center of the universe of some literal god, they where just a silly spaceman scientist who got in a lot of tight spots. It captivated me and so many others with this simple formula, and I was convinced I was a lifelong fan. And then this happened.
Raspberry Milkshake I mean, I agree mostly, but if they stuck to the same template now, the show wouldn’t be as fun anymore. It would become repetitive, hence why the show got cancelled and didn’t come back until 2005.
@@greenmango2707 That's the thing though, this doesn't change the formula in anyway, it just worsens the character by making them into some lifelong deific chosen one rather than a wanderer who just wants to do the right thing who merely has the means to moreso than regular people simply because they have extra + longer lives, are highly intelligent and have a time machine. One of the most intriguing parts of the character is that despite being so gargantuan and one of a kind, given the right tools anyone could be the doctor (see many companions like Sarah Jane, Clara and Captain Jack Harkness). Also this "reveal" answers one question "whats the origin of gallifreyan society, by adding at least 12 more: 1. If the Doctor is not a time lord, why do they have two hearts and other aspects of time lord biology? 2. Why can River Song regenerate? 3. Why did the Doctor have to be granted more regeneration's in season 7? 4. Didn't Rassilon found time lord society? 5. Why wasn't the Doctor more revered, rather than simply being treated as an eccentric? 6. What about the family/families the Doctor has had? Were they born with their "unique" abilities, and why weren't they subject to study? 7. Why didn't Clara see any of the Doctor's supposed pre-Hartnell regeneration's in the time stream? I can sorta overlook her not seeing his future selves because they hadn't happened yet, but that is now a gaping plothole. 8. What narrative purpose does any of this reveal serve, besides needlessly changing over 50 years of lore and turning the show's main character into some pre-destined chosen one, rather than a traveller simply trying to do the right thing. "Why was she left in our universe? Who and what civilisation did she come from? Why was she abandoned? Where did that tear in reality come from? "
The Dr was never the main feature of the show.... It was the adventures...To say it would become repetitive Green Mango is like saying oops we ran out of words. It got cancelled because it lost it's way and looked inwards to much.... and because it was never given enough respect by the bbc ...ahhhh here we are again.
The issue with the Timeless Child isn’t the fact that it destroys decades of Doctor Who canon. No, it’s far worse it destroys Doctor Who’s future because now no matter what happens The Doctor is a god with infinite regeneration ability. It removes all future conflict and stakes from the show.
Assuming... That the Master is right. See, I don't think so I think he's got part of the picture and he's leapt to certain conclusions. Of course he sees The Doctor as the Timeless child because then all his past failures, every day the doctor outsmarted him makes sense. there was no possible way he could defeat the Timelord's Optimus Prime. To a being as arrogant and egocentric as the Master nothing else could make sense. But I think the master... Is wrong.
@@LAGUEp666 the master lied to the doctor but he gets something out of it I think he has lied to him once in the revival whenhe was the misi but the ulterior motive to was to make him suffer , what would he gain by lying to her here
@@andrewcruzsmith2343 I didn't say he was lying I said he was wrong! Stone. Dead. Wrong! I have absolutely no doubt that the Master believes The Doctor is the Timeless Child. He blew Galifrey to flinders out of revenge for goodness' sake BUT I think that he's misinterpreted the legend and the Timeless Child is some other figure we haven't seen yet. Entertaining for a moment the possibility that he's lying the only other thing I can think he might be gaining is to throw the Doctor off balance but there are more effective ways of doing so than forcing someone to buy into the fact that they're at the centre of their race's creation myth.... Possibly bragging rights that you pulled it off but even so...
@@LAGUEp666 1)apologies for my miss interpretation 2) no one more than me wants to believe that the timeless child was miss represented by the master but christ wanted it to be the doctor , the only way they can fix it is for them to retcon it
@@andrewcruzsmith2343 OR have the actual timeless child show up at a later point and the Doctor, through the whole psychic thing realising there's no way this is an earlier version of herself.
Wow I really wish the movies and shows I love would stop getting slaughtered in pursuit of cheap shock factors because of lazy writing and lack of direction.
@@ichabod1370 🤣maybe so lol but ik for a fact some of the other franchises I enjoy are affected by absolute lazy writing. The star wars sequels for instance. They did not plan out a trilogy and had to make it up along the way. Primarily using reactions from the audience to guide them instead of having a concrete story they were proud of and stuck to throughout. But rey is a mystery. Well nope shes a nobody. Well no now thats not true bc shes actually a palpatine and has to re-examine her life and person to determine of she is still who she thought she was and has to decide to stick to what she knows and believes rather than to follow the path her past might set her on. Sound familiar lol? Just cheap shock value to answer audience questions that don't always need to be answered.
Fan theory: The Time Lords created the ability to time travel by injecting the "regeneration energy" into the Time Vortex. That's why River had the ability to regenerate after being exposed to the Time Vortex.
I think the Timelords stole the Doctor's ability to regenerate past 12 times by that point, because you do see them give the ability back. Plus it would make sense if they wanted their cover story that the Doctor was a simple Time Lord to remain in place.
Because he’s just as smart as the Doctor without his moral code. Look at how often the Doctor has committed genecide without even trying, and you’re angry the Master is able to do it in a fit of rage? Plus, that was in a war, so the Time Lords were expecting it, not the Master
@@ceridwenmillington3955 even with that, the only reason they didn’t destroy Gallifrey was because Clara convinced them not to. Even then, 10 and 11 both remembered destroying Gallifrey, and they didn’t want to see it again, so they luckily figured out an alternative
Chibnall turned the Doctor from a simple timelord who turned himself into one of the most dangerous and powerful people in the universe who intimidates all the monsters by his reputation into "Hey the doctor is now just a god and is special because of that"
How could river song regenerate if it’s genetically? How did the master take on all the time lords? Can the doctor regenerate unlimited times? And how did the 11th doctor gain more regenerations if he already had them ?
Because Chris Chibnall ... You can also add, how comme the black woman doctor got a police box tardis when it was Hartnell's doctor ( later incarnation ) who stole it ?
Obi-wan Kenobi 1) they used the genetic components of the doctor to uncover the time vortex thus the conception of river thru the time vortex. 2) he’s awesome 3) as of now yes 4) maybe as a manipulation from the time lords. I do see them Doing so to keep him in check
Obi-wan Kenobi I was asking the last question to myself, maybe he was going to regenerate anyway but the time lords made it seem like they gave him another cycle
1) this doesn’t state how the doctor got regenerations. Just that she was where they came from. She could have got them from the Time Vortex, like River 2) they didn’t really explore that, and I doubt they will. 3) Nobody knows. That’s kind of the point, now they can add as many as they want and it wouldn’t contradict the cannon. 4) the 11th Doctor was given regenerations by the Time Lords. It’s possible that the Doctor could have had more regenerations left after 11, but that he didn’t know he did. And we don’t know if the Time Lords gave the Doctor a set amount of regenerations when they “reset” him. (or whatever they did, we don’t know yet).
@Alfa&Omega 00000 or its actually Rassilong back for the 60th anniversary, would also explain why Rassilon was so hateful and commanding, after all Tecteun did to him.
What if that the master gave the Doctor an answer that they could better accept with them being the Timeless Child when in a big twist it could be revealed that they were in fact Tek Tey Un (I don't know how to spell it) and that the Doctor did all the horrible things to the Timeless Child. The Doctor could find out by reading the timelord database or the TARDIS's and they confront the Master in a big confrontation thanking him for being merciful but to never tell a lie about they're past to them.
Well, it's not an abomination if parts of it aren't exactly as the Matrix or the Master say... what if I told you most of this knowledge might not even be real? The truth is: all we know comes from the Master and the Matrix, but nothing is exactly 2+2=4. Where did he get all this information if we didn't, just by looking at the facts? Why are there glitches in the Matrix? Why is there a mixed timeline with another Doctor? And why is Ruth's Doctor inside the Matrix? If it does come true, then one asks the ultimate question - did it change anything? Well, not really, the First Doctor can still be the First Doctor, and we can be pretty sure he had previous incarnations because Hartnell's Doctor was the bearer of the Promise, and probably not the one who made it (just like when the War Doctor decided to reintroduce the Promise and the 9th Doctor became the bearer). We also know more about Time Lord society and regeneration (which seems quite true as a revelation) and the Timeless Child makes sense if you consider River's unusual origin. The only thing I say it changes is the Doctor's humble nature - it makes the Doctor special when there's no need for it, depending on how they do it. The special thing about the Doctor was that he/she came from a humble, altruist place. He doesn't need to be a special Time Lord, but... as the 7th Doctor also said: _I am far more than just another Time Lord._ Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but that we don't know. Whatever it is, the Doctor does seem to have a mystery about itself, but shouldn't come at the expense of becoming 'naturally special', maybe it could come at the expense of a different revelation. Until then, we can only speculate.
They are separate in my eyes. The Child was a thing used by the Time Lords for their own selfish gain. My theory is the Time Lords converted the Child into a bog standard Time Lord who would one day call himself the Doctor The Child was a battery, a tool that was used by a species of selfish aliens. The Doctor is a kind person who flew away to explore the stars
The Dodo it doesn’t change the Doctor in anyway....all this says is that she’s been around longer than even she was aware of. That doesn’t take anyway from the character; it only adds to it. Not only is she the Doctor, she’s so much more.
Chris O'Master are you actually stupid or something? I’m being serious here. People like you keep complaining that this has somehow magically taken away from the character when it didn’t do that whatsoever.....You’re acting like Chibnall said ‘screw everything that came before’ when in reality he’s given the character of the Doctor the ability to live on for generations of future viewers to enjoy which is what the showrunners have been trying to do since the classic series..... The show has been hinting at this story since Tom Bakers Era and was going to be done with Slyvester McCoy before the Classic Series was axed and now we finally have it. You claim this makes the doctors previous 13 lives mean so little when Chibnall is telling you that it doesn’t matter who the face of the Doctor is or how many different Doctors there are, the character lives on through all of them.....that’s the whole point of the show....
This is not only a stupid swerve that screws with a lot of canon and makes the Doctor a more uninteresting character, but the method of the reveal itself is so lazy and unexciting. Just a close up of the Master as he says it.
@Char Aznable Any other person would face life in prison or the death penalty; this was more than child cruelty, it was continuous torture/ child abuse.
@Char Aznable it wasn't trivialised, the whole idea is that what the gallifreyian did was horrible, and the scientist wasn't the protagonist, she is the antagonist. I hate this twist and the whole season, but you don't need to try and find more made-up reasons why it's bad
Here’s how I’d revise the Timeless Child storyline: 1. Ruth is not the Doctor. She lied to her so she could steal her identity and travel the universe under her name. 2. Ruth is the Timeless Child. The entire backstory of the Timeless Child as explained by the Master (minus the Doctor being the Timeless Child) is still true. 3. Ruth plotted with the Master to destroy Gallifrey again as a way to exact revenge on the Timelords for their cruelty to her. That’s just a basic idea. There’s so much you could do with this that I can’t think about right now.
Interesting points, but here's how I'd revise your revision: 1. Ruth is the Doctor (as stated by Chibnall), an alternate organic or temporal copy with a different outcome (not a parallel version, also stated by the Chibs). She has been an essential part in a temporal shenanigan by the Founding Fathers of Gallifrey or may have undergone some procedure which split the original Timeless Child timeline. 2. Ruth may be one of the parts of the Timeless Child, though another part could be another dubious character we know. Most of the backstory of the Timeless Child, as explained by the Master, is false or misinterpreted, apart from a few elements that can be corroborated by past facts. 3. Ruth's link in the Matrix helped the Doctor to plan her escape, so perhaps she's helpful to the Doctor's cause in finding the truth, or maybe Ruth's work will lead into a new problem - perhaps, her employers. There's definitely a lot one can speculate. But it's a fun exercise. We're probably all wrong by the end, but it was still fun nonetheless ;)
The doctors name doesn’t matter anymore now, if he lived lives he doesn’t even remember, then the name he keeps hidden and knows isn’t even his real name and therefore isn’t a big deal anymore
@@maftet969 I choose to believe that 10 told us it and we just didn't believe him. The Doctor in my mind will always be Bingle Bongle Dingle Dangle Yikkidy Du Kikkidy Da Lippy Tuppy To Ta
of course it matters. all this did was the time-lord equivalent of past lives. like finding out you were Hitler in your past life. does that change who you are now? your current life is not defined by who you are in a past you dont remember. so the doctor's name, yes it still matters
There's a lot of problems with this. Let's split it into 3 categories. *Character *Canon *The after effects of this episode. And at the end I'll give a rating (0-10) and my reasons why. Character : The Doctor was originally a grumpy old grandfather with mysterious origins travelling through time and space with his Granddaughter Susan and her teachers. At the beginning of the travels The First Doctor is cold and distant to everyone but towards the end he becomes more welcoming and open. If the doctor was always special and always had these traits the impact and growth of Hartnell's doctor meant nothing. The doctor wasn't meant to be special, they were supposed to be some random bloke who liked to help people out but on Gallifrey they were treat like just some guy. That's what they were. You've lost relatibility because most people aren't born special. Let's move on. Canon: Not only have you managed to make Hartnell's doctor meaningless but you can't even get the Canon correct, When Clara meets the doctor-the First doctors younger self he is a child and two time lords mention how he isn't fit to be a time lord meaning that no-he wasn't space Christ he was just a child and Hartnell's Doctor was a child - what's your excuse that makes sense? Clara goes through all of the Doctors time line in the episode titled 'the name of the doctor' before coming across the war doctor - here she says 'I saw all of you, 11th faces - you're the eleventh doctor' should I keep going? Omega says this to the Doctor 'I was sacrificed to the SUPERNOVA WHILE MY BROTHERS BECAME TIME LORDS!' was Omega just wrong or did you retcon him out because you're a hack Chib? After Effects: You've ruined the relatibility of the doctor and less people are going to be inspired because you've set up the message that you can't become special through your actions and that you're born special which is insulting to the men, women and children who have been inspired for 50+ years. You've ignored the Canon and retconned Omega, a well written and good character, in favour of cheap suspense and a bad twist. You've ruined the character development of the first doctor. Rating: For the first time ever... Negative 10 and for the first time ever I cannot be bothered to explain why-I hate it that much.
Because everyone can relate to the two hearted alien from Gallifrey. Did you pay attention? They regressed the Doctor’s age and released him into the wild. The Timeless Child was a closely guarded secret.
Video Game Animation Study I think fans want to go back to the Russel T Davis style of writing. Its more so about the Doctors relationships with his companions and how those relationships effect the Doctor. Like a breaking Bad style doctor who show.
@@tierk4328 Fair enough. People would get bored eventually though. Things like this shake it up. If we have Doctor/character interaction only, we end up with Series 11. Honestly, people aren't meant to watch it constantly, it's designed for kids who come of age and grow out of it.
"Gallifrey falls no more." Oh wait, actually let's make it fall again even though we just wrapped up that story arc less than two series ago. Also what kind of security does Gallifrey have that one single Time Lord (who is well known for causing trouble) can simply get pissed off one day and destroy their entire civilization?
@@tacticalrobloxiansunited7441 It didn't destroy any canon. It's adding to the canon. Nothing has changed to what's previously been established. Get over it, this is how it is now. Watch it or don't watch it, the Doctor is an alien to this universe.
@@mrguff9304 It did destroy canon, everything has changed or the Master wouldn't have needed to say everything we know is a lie. I think you need to go back and watch it from the start as you don't seem to understand it's history.
@@Trev359 I understand it very well, I also understand it's a family program aimed at kids, and that I'm not really that bothered if they add to the story. What on _earth_ do you want from the series? Just literally repeating the same 7 stories over and over?
What if the Master is being played as well? id say both The Valeyard and Rassilon both conspired to put this story out there because 1. Rassilon doesnt want anyone to be more powerful then him or to out live him so he put this story out there to make The Doctor and The Master kill each other and with them gone therell be no one out living him. Borusa wanted immortality and look what Rassilon did to him. Look what Rassilon did to Omega, he threw him under the bus. 2. with The Doctor dead the Valeyard can take her remaining regeneration.
I guess they just, kinda forgot about the time the 12th doctor gave the daleks his regeneration e energy, ergo the daleks now have infinite regeneration, but I guess the Daleks kida forgot that too.
@@cleanerben9636 Thats not how is works. The 10th Doctor used his regeneration energy to regenerate a hand but at the time he was still limited to 12 regenerations. 11th Doctor used his regeneration energy to heal River and he still had to be given a further regeneration cycle by the Time Lords.
Give it some time. DW seems to take a long haul to plot developments like this. For example, Everything about the Time War was just vague references for years until they fully expended on it in later episodes.
@@plucas1 Really? Because the concept of the Time War pretty straightforward from the first time it was mentioned. It was the terrifying war so destructive that it forced the Doctor to commit genocide. It made the Doctor lonely and angry, both traits that influenced multiple stories. Meanwhile, the Timeless Child arc, from the moment it was introduced, did nothing. It made her little confused, a little distant from her companions, but the whole thing had virtually no influence on the overall stories. And if the only argument supporting Chibnall's decision is that "It'll be explained later," that's not a very good argument, is it?
Hopefully they play this off as the master trying to get inside the doctor's head by using the most disturbing thing he could think of, I'm not too mad about the time lord mystery being reveiled but the doctor isn't meant to be someone that was born special, he became someone special aftyer thousands of years of loss, freindship, bravery and self sacrifice. This takes away the every man aspect of the doctor and that the doctor could have been anyone and that he could die at any momenet when his regenerations run out, but now he is the only one with an unlimited amount because he's the origin of the species. But the worst sin is that this devalues Peter Capaldi's scene where he wants to die and keeps going because he was given another chance due to increasing his regeneration rate and he can continue doing good in the universe.
I'm really hoping the Master was just lying about this. Because, if not, this just throws everything we've got in terms of backstory out the window. This was a dumb decision that needs to be fixed.
Would have been a great lie though, if he was the child. Maybe even better if there never was one. But I fear the writing on this show isn't that clever. Woah, way to give my self a compliment. Ey-oh!
@@voldlifilm I also think it would be better if the child never existed as well, because it completely changes the way regeneration works. If the entire thing was made up, that would be just fine by me.
It would have been more interesting if The Master had been the Timeless Child. It would be an opportunity for the writers to retcon all the Masters inability to fully die and stay dead. Or, in a pass toward Classic fans, to make somebody like Rani or Romana the Timeless Child.
Alternate scene Master: The Timeless Child... was me! *dramatic music intensifies* Doctor: But how? You once ran out of regenerations and died. Master: The Time Lords could only gain 12 regenerations because they had to take away my infinite regenerations. But, now that I've destroyed Gallifrey and killed all the Time Lords, I've got that power back. I will be forever. I truly am The Master. *mediocre evil laughter intensifies* *intensified dramatic music intensifies* Doctor: So you.. Master: I will live forever and ever. I can do whatever I please because you... the only being able to stop me... one day you will die. And I.. I will live on. There is nothing you can do to stop me! *intensified evil laughter intensifies and echoes* Doctor: Oh no.. oh no no no no Master: No matter how many times you stop me, you will always have that itching feeling in your throat that it will never be enough. The Time Lords are gone and you can never get another chance. Don't even think I will give you any of my regeneration energy because I couldn't care for for word out of your mouth. You know what, I better start planning. Maybe I could become the prime minister again. Has anyone ever done that before? Doesn't matter. Maybe I could turn everyone into me again. I wonder if Donna Noble would still be immune to that. I wonder what would happen of she... remembered you (writer's note: I think this is getting a bit outlandish now) Doctor: Oh no. Don't you dare. If you do that I will come for you and- Master: And what? Kill me? Go on make that threat. *intensified evil laughter continues to intensify*
That quote means nothing, in fact I have a better one for you. “Perhaps there’s just some bloke, wandering around, putting everything right when it goes wrong” This episode destroys this entire idea. It destroys the whole identity of the show.
#Mephostopheles It actually makes sense. The Doctor has regenerated more times than anyone, and doesn't seem to be stopping. When the Time Lords 'gave' her more regenerations at Trenzalore, they actually unlocked her power, giving her the ability to keep going. And if you read the lore, the Time Lords had an organisation specifically built to stop her remembering this. Since they could time travel, I imagine memory erasing is easy.
@@ethanlauder4887 thats just wrong. Before the retcon, the master regenerated more times than the doctor- having been ressurected after running out of regenerations.
Think of episode from The Brain of Morbius staring Tom Baker where it was shown that The Doctor has had many more past regenerations that thought possible. The Timeless Child addresses this and the time lords genetic experiments. It also brings back the original mystery to the story that nobody really knows where The Doctor is from, and now not even The Doctor knows.
Moffat was actually a great who writer. Just think about how he linked Russell’s writing into his. The cleverness of the Silence. The loop of Heaven Sent. Although twice upon a time ruined it all.
I don't mesh with the idea of the Doctor being this "chosen one progenitor" type role. The show always prided itself on the Doctor being an regular bloke who does great things.
Mr Guff She isn’t very regular anymore. She’s basically the original Time Lord, which glorifies the Doctor as a god even more than Tennant and Smith combined. I get that giving her a mysterious past makes it more interesting, but what does it do for her and the show, character wise and lore-wise, besides adding more questions that won’t be answered?
@@SteelSpurs Who knows, the same thing as having Gallifrey saved from the Time War to only have nothing done with that, the same thing as never finding out who destroyed the TARDIS in season 5, only to find out in a throw away line in season 7. Now we have a whole other dimension to explore.
Not exactly. The doctor has been killed permanently or was on the verge of death a few time. For example the Tenth Doctor was killed in Turn Left and in the comic Four Doctors an alternate Tenth Doctor called the Time Lord Victorious was killed permanently when he was shot by a slitheen. The eleventh Doctor was shown to have died permanently on Trenzalore . The Twelfth Doctor died permanently several times in Heaven Sent until he broke the wall of azbantium.
No disrespect to anyone on the creative team, but in my personal opinion, this is an awful idea that completely disrespects and demystifies Doctor Who. I would strongly urge them to listen to the criticism and rectify this.
The doctor is now immortal ( a cheap, easy excuse to keep the show running as long as they like) which means, when someone is injured, if the doctor doesn't use regeneration energy to heal them, he/she is being lazy... Great writing 😂
With respect, I’ve been a fan of the show for years and I know the lore very well, and it’s my opinion that this plot point isn’t a good one. If you think differently, that’s absolutely fine; there’s no need to disrespect me.
I'm sorry, but wouldn't it have made more sense for the master to be the timeless child, that way it doesn't mess with the whole identity of the show and also gives the master a reason to be pissed off enough to destroy Gallifrey.
Yes. The only thing that doesn't explain is why the Master needed to defy death so many times, in so many different ways throughout the show's history. He wouldn't have needed to steal bodies, for example. I'm still hopeful that the Master reveals it was a lie he made up, but if not, I'm interested to see how the writers can manage to explain all of this.
Ian Miller Because in this idea, he himself didn’t know he was the timeless child. He’d therefore have no reason to assume he could regenerate forever.
Some Guy but then that’s why the doctor has the idea of the limit of regenerations too. Exactly the same reason. They don’t know. I quite like the idea.
David Saunders You only need stakes for the character you’re rooting for. If it’s a villain, then making them invincible or overpowered isn’t bad since they can’t be the underdog.
Wouldn't it make more sense for The Master to be the Timeless Child? At least that would explain his hatred of Galifrey and his reason to destroy it, as revenge against eons of being experimented on. If anything it would make the character more dangerous because it give The Master the freedom to do whatever they want because they know that they will always come back locking them and The Doctor in a perpetual struggle. This however, this does not work. Making the Doctor the child just destroys over 50 years of continuity. It eliminates some of the most pivotal scenes within the newer series like 10's fear of regeneration because secretly he knows it's running out. That heartwarming scene where the Time Lords give 11 a brand new cycle is undone because The Doctor apparently always had unlimited regeneration. So I must ask what was the point to all of this, just to eliminate the 13 regeneration rule? Again 11 was given a brand new cycle but there was no set number, really if they don't feel like it the whole thing about regeneration limits never has to be revisited again. So really I ask what was the point to this? Just to make the character "the special" a trope that is worn out and old that it's practically satire now. Funny isn't it wasn't the Cybermen, it wasn't the Daleks, wasn't even River Song. It was the show runner that killed The Doctor
That's genius, and the master is lying about to the doctor to force the doctor to search for what they think is the truth but the master is piggy backing to see their home dimension or whatever
The Last Jedi wasn’t even that bad or at least compared to this. No, this is more like the last two Terminator movies because of how badly they retcon their respective franchises and treat their leads.
This is shockingly true, but also in the positives of TLJ, like it has cool lore and backstory, but as a film/episode it’s terrible. The origin of regeneration is actually decent. But the doctor being the child, really?
Bruh, this is easily TROS. Random lore retcons being explained to you by characters just because, and a weird need to make a character important by making their history/lineage special instead of the message of TLJ which was that you are special because of your decisions, and not because of your past.
according to the Master's Narration that was after the invention of Time Travel. So, Omega wouldn't be there, as he gets lost in the antimatter world after helping create tardises and time travel.
@@pheebeetwo I always thought that the Gallifreyan Government imprisoned Omega in that Anti-matter Universe because from what I saw of him in "The Three Doctors", he REALLY didn't like being there. Just another lie told by those in power on Gallifrey.
@@DoctorWhoKage Not government, Rassilon himself. Only one who could rival his power was Omega, and oops, he is not forever stuck in anti matter world.
Except, what you saw so far was a trick played by none other than Houdini himself. Did they actually throw 50+ years out the window? Or is 50+ years still inside the house? It's a good question isn't it? The thing is, you assumed the same as the Master - both saw that 50+ years guy run to the window, but the facts never pointed to that. But what if you and the Master were right? What if the 50+ years guy fell down the window because of this revelation? Did it actually change the outcome? Did he die or pull out a Sherlock? Isn't the First Doctor still the first bearer of the Promise, even if he had previous incarnations? Did that change the learning curve he had to go through or his humble beginnings? Was the 7th Doctor being rhetorical when he said he wasn't just another Time Lord? Did that really change regeneration or the lore on Time Lord society and the Dark Times? Did that not explain why River was always a Time Lord? The truth is: it really doesn't change anything (well, sort of, I'm still waiting for those Morbius 'Doctors' to appear in my nightmares). Personally, I not only think the 50+ years guy was in the room the whole time, but he was might've been Sherlock in disguise...
@@ReversedPolarity just shut up, it does throw nearly 60 years of story away and when you have to write a fucking novel lol you did to come up with a possible reason it might not be bad, then it’s bad. Stop defending this shit. At least Hartnell isn’t alive to see his legacy shat on by bad writing
@@ReversedPolarity Lmao this is so funny to me that you go ass backwards with your mental gymnastics to defend this crap - going all out with these allegories and questions. Give it a rest man. It’s time to call a spade a spade.
@@chrisdawson1776 And it's funny to me that you see but don't observe enough. I'm not defending anything if you read my comment, I'm merely providing some perspective. Is there any problem with that? If there is, then give your attitude a rest man, we're all fans here.
@@McDonald_Mando Huh, I can't believe I missed this joyful party of comments, but hey I finally made it. So, what threw nearly 60 years of story away? As far as I can see, we know absolutely nothing, only from third parties who have proven to lie in the past about their own prophecies. And here's the funny thing to me: you said Hartnell's legacy was affected, but where's your evidence? I'm intrigued.
Oh so the time lords didn’t give the eleventh doctor more regenerations because of anything Clara did, they did it in a desperate attempt to keep up the secret.
I think so, too. At first I thought they might found a way to limit the Doctor´s regeneration after they manipulated her memories but it would make more sense if they simply fooled the Doctor by giving the 11th Doctor regeneration energy even so he could have done it by himself. Maybe that´s even why the regeneration of the 11th Doctor was so much bigger because of the additional energy.
also means the spare regeneration energy 11 used in angels take manhattan to heal river makes more sense. (also his fake regen in the impossible astronaut ? but that was a teselecta so maybe not real anyway idk ?)
And River sacrificed her regenerations for nothing and the Doctor can now basically just finger blast regeneration energy at Daleks like in Eleventh's final episode so they're no longer a threat.
I liked how the doctor earned his importance through kindness and through helping those in need, not through just being what he is - this needs to be retconned it would have been so cool if the master was the timeless child.
Yeah, I still wouldn't have liked it, but it would have made slightly more sense for the Master to be the timeless child. The idea is absolute rubbish either way, but at least it wouldn't have destroyed the whole series like that.
It would also make more sense for him to destroy Gallifrey if he was TTC instead of the Doctor. Wouldn’t he just kill the Time Lords in power rather than the whole planet when he found out about the Doctor?
it would also kinda make sense considering all the bullshit and unconventional ways the master has managed to come back without the use of regeneration
Maybe he is and this is a lie, and the past Doctor is a past Master going along with the lie. It would explain better why he got angry enough to destroy Gallifrey if he were the one tortured by the Timelords.
Technically, nothing about the revelations of this episode say the Doctor is the Timeless Child. Check the episode again and you'll see what I'm saying. We all just assumed that to be the case. And what if the Doctor was naturally gifted? Would it really change what you know? The Doctor still had to work to become who he/she is, that's why Hartnell is the first bearer of the Promise. That learning curve is still there and comes from a humble beginning. Whoever he 'might' have been before is still not the Doctor, maybe someone who needed to become a Doctor. We're also pretty sure Hartnell wasn't the one who created the Promise, especially when you consider the 50th.
Photon Studios how is a comment boring? Just because you’re angry that we saw through this shit series you completely disregard the GENUINE criticism of how they ruined this great show
@@theintelligenceagency3638 Doesn't the fact that it's been used so many times tell you something. So many poeple realise this is the case. However many times that comment is used doesn't change how true it is, it enforces it.
@@theintelligenceagency3638 in hindsight anything can be stated as being used too often that's what happens when people are feeling the same way. by focussing on the fact that it's a boring comments rather than the actual substance makes me believe that you don't actually have an argument against what he is saying
Omg ikr I said that! It would explain why he killed them all. It would also be why he's mad at the doctor, he's mad that the only reason the doctor is living is because of him.
Origin story, when the master looked into the heart of the vortex thing hat drove him mad, writing could have been much more original that what was used.
This is like saying Superman isn't from Krypton. It's lazy stupid and undermines decades of storytelling for a cheap gasp. They don't even do anything with it the doctor basically said it won't affect me in any way, I am so disappointed in chibnall's writing.
I would not be surprised if the series gets better. A future writer will play this off as a trick from the master in the future to make the doctor reckless.
ObiWan Kenobi I’d disagree. My family continued to watch the CW shows when I quit. When they said they got good again I started watching again. I mean they where wrong and the shows where still bad, but I did tune back in briefly.
The Time War: A massive, universe-shaking event in where the Daleks (among other things) try to destroy Gallifrey Chibnall's Master: Feeling cute, might destroy Gallifrey later. 🤔
@QUALITY KHANTENT I don't care about the Master's appearance. I care about the character. It's why I loved the Missy incarnation, because it was arguably the deepest characterization we've gotten for the Master. Chibnall's is a little rage monster that *might* have been justified if he were the Timeless Child, rage founded on discovering he was used and experimented on. Instead, he's just suddenly evil again, with unsupported goals that swing on whims, and apparently more powerful than the entire Dalek fleet.
The Master reveals... that there was never any dramatic tension in the show at all because the Doctor was always invincible, apparently. The Valeyard, who lived in the matrix for a while, must have missed this while he was there too because this endless regeneration thing makes his attempts on stealing the Doctor's "remaining" lives less of a "let me kill you so I can exist," into more of a "can I borrow five dollars so I can buy a sandwich."
I don't remember the classic episode off-hand, but someone made the mistake of showing a bunch more lives that the actors to that point because they got the lore wrong. I guess Chibnall wanted to make that canon. Remember when "half human on my mother's side" was the biggest canon break in the series? And I actually thought that one had merit. This one feels more like an excuse to not have to explain why more than 13 actors played the Doctor without having to restart the counter every 12 actors.
@@AGO339 Regenerating countless times/being the only being that can "naturally" regenerate doesn't imply invincibility to you? Why should dying mid regeneration be a thing for the timeless child? Why should the Doctor care about losing any particular incarnation at this point? It's not like there's a finite number of lives anymore.
In my opinion, I personally think the Doctor isn't the Timeless Child. Given the fact that the Master is a trickster and an expert at lying, I think history of the Timeless Child in the Matrix is a false memory created by Master. If that's wrong, if Doctor really is the Timeless Child, then I think somehow the Time Lords managed to limited his/her Regeneration cycle into twelve, just like how they did.
@@wolfytennobr8485 Precisely. In that case, why make the Doctor the Timeless Child? What's the point? What does it add? It's like Avengers Endgame saying at the last minute "oh, and Captain America was the son of a great wizard and heir to a great dynasty". It's unnecessary aggrandisement.
And the Time Lords wiped out the Doctor's memory of being the Timeless Child. reverted him into a child being the first doctor and sent him back to Galifrey before the events of the show even began, they also took the ability to have unlimited regenerations from the Doctor and limited them to 12.
As with any question, it spawns more questions then answers. Here are the questions I still have witch I hope they answer in the future. Why was she left in our universe? Who and what civilisation did she come from? Why was she abandoned? Where did that tear in reality come from?
Lachlan Harrison that’s the whole point. It’s still Doctor Who? We don’t know where the Doctor came from or who she is. It could very well be she was sent back in time to kickstart the genesis of the Timelords.....it could be shes the last of her species and was sent through the barrier. Who knows??
It’s gonna be dream within a dream within the matrix. The Master falsely led information into the Doctor, the Timeless Child reincarnated into the Other , the Other became Ruth Doctor , Ruth Doctor reincarnated into First Doctor. My theory.
The next showrunner will more than likely go back and undo this. Either the Master is lying or Rassilon tempered with the Matrix or maybe both or there's just loads of different ways to rectify this.
It's still funny that some people are fine with regeneration being so random that it can make a person a zombie or two-headed but are shocked that it can change someone's gender or race
This episode ruined what the doctor is for me and most people. He/she is meant to just be a mysterious rogue time lord who wants to do the right thing whilst living with their own demons. Yet this reveal just turned the friendly neighbourhood (universehood) Doctor into some chosen one Unbelievable
This was the original story line for 7th Doctor. They never finished it before it was cancelled. It's a weird story line though. It ruins so much cannon man's has plot holes everywhere.
So the doctor isn't anymore that one clever time lord that decided to run away So the all regeneration cycle that 11 needed doesn't makes sence anymore Wasn't there an other explaination for the master to destroy gallifrey ? I mean i've never seen so much no carring about other writers
Only thing I can say is maybe Matt Smith's doctor only thought his regeneration cycle was coming to an end but it really wasn't and he only was given the regeneration energy because Clara begged throught that crack.... again I dont like any of this but it is the best answer I can give... just pure ignorance is all I've got
The Timelords were clever enough to be able to manufacture how many times others could regenerate, and at one point they must've reverted The Doctor back to a child and restricted it back to 12 regenerations. I really like it, it makes the Doctor even more mysterious and special, and just expands more ideas for future writers to explore. It helps feed the eccentricity of the Doctor since William Hartnell.
@@VideoGameAnimationStudy I think there is no need for a unique child kind back story to make the doctor special, the doctor is special because he became special by himself That's what I loved about the character he was just that one guy who was a pain in the ass for the timelords and became a legend for his actions Now he is THE ONE since the beginning so I don't really care anymore (Matrix ? The one ? OMG) The timeless child could have been another timelord and that would be cool
@@obiwankenobi687 my bad for 11 but it says more about the uselessness (sorry bad english) of this backstory for the doctor who was a already a unique timelors. What i mean is that this is more and more explaination for something that doesn't need it. Now the next writers can do anything "oh and gallifrey was in the same solar system than earth so that's why timelords and human looks the same" "oh and Rasillon is in FACT the master but in the future" the timeless child could have been another new character and that would be cool
@@robertwilson1355 It could be the Time Lords altered The Doctor's DNA to only regenerate 12 times when they wiped her memories of past incarnations to help hide her origins from history. When they "granted" a new line of regenerations, they actually removed the genetic limits on regeneration meaning she is no longer limited to twelve.
So why does she have two hearts? Being a primordial being from an unknown rheum, you wouldn’t think her physiology would be that of a Gallifreyan. Or maybe the two hearts comes with the Timelord mutation, like, you become a Timelord, you grow an extra heart
It was actually suggested in a first doctor book that the second heart actually comes in with the first regeneration, which would make sense of the timeless child having two hearts as they have already regenerated.
thing is they spliced her DNA into them so it's more likely that the Galiifreyan's started to take on characteristics of whatever species the Doctor is as the generations grew is a sense the Doctor is the only TRUE timelord and the Gallifreyan's used technology to turn themselves into the same/similar species
@@charliedavidarnott1537 I think most people who watch it today started with RTD, unaware that it's a family show that's not really meant to be continually watched. It's designed for kids who grow older and then stop watching. Which is why there's a soft restart with each Doctor, companion and showrunner. I don't think they ever intend for people to think of it _quite_ so seriously.
I'm sure the 8-13 year olds this show is mostly aimed for haven't experienced this kind of storytelling before, so it's good for them, y'know, who it's aimed for.
@@mrguff9304 The 8- 13 year olds left. 3.78 million overnights and no S12 episode cracked the 7 million mark Unless you work for the BBC and Piers Wenger better tell em to wake up cause all the PR didn't help. No one wants to be preached.
The show is aimed at 8-13 year olds who, y'know, don't stay that age forever. New 8-13 year olds hop on to enjoy it. That's how the show has always worked. Gee, the 13 year olds who watched Series 1 will be....23 now.
I hadn't been concerned about infinite regenerations so much as the Master's ability to singlehandedly destroy the Citadel and defeat the rest of the Time Lords seemingly without raising a sweat, when the combined might of all the Daleks couldn't do it. Why is nobody outraged about *that*?
I don't really have a problem with it. The Time Lords have repeatedly been shown to be a powerful but decadent race in decline. The Doctor has outsmarted them a few times (notably in _Hell Bent_ where he runs circles around all of them). I don't have any problem believing the Master could do the same - and to much more malevolent ends. The Doctor and The Master are much more inventive and flexible thinkers than other Time Lords. I don't need to see how the Master destroys them (like the Time War it's one of those things that should probably never appear on screen), but I totally believe he could.
And let's not forget that this completely renders the 50th anniversary special moot. Moffat celebrated the survival of Gallifrey and Chibnall unceremonially just flushed it down the toilet again.
Dear Chris Chibnall, you win! You brought out the strong emotions of the fan base.... but in the wrongest of ways. However, you can correct all this with series 13. Let’s face it, your reputation as a writer and show runner has been ruined. The ratings and critical reception of the show has tanked under your leadership. But I urge you, before you get forced out of your job, to PLEASE correct the wrongs you’ve done! As the Doctor would say “Time and be rewritten!” That can be most evident with what you do next with your (hopefully) final series.
I hope Chris Chibnall reads this comment section and actually takes on-board the valid criticism of this "plot twist". William Hartnell would be ashamed.
I'd doubt it. The BBC don't need to worry about viewer numbers as we're forced to pay for this with the TV license. Any other show in this state would have been cancelled by now.
When William Hartnell was the Doctor, the words ''Time Lord'' or ''Gallifrey'' were not even in the show yet. At the time, the writers saw the Doctor as a human from the future who made the TARDIS by himself.
@@cleanerben9636 AND that proves that Doctor Who always change. It's the whole point of the show. William Hartnell wouldn't be ashamed. He would be confused about how many times the story changed and about how many times the fans thought ''Doctor Who was ruined'' (it's really not the first time this sentence is said in 57 years)
The Doctor: So were any of my other lives ginger. The Master (sighs heavily): No, they weren't ginger. The Doctor: Darn it. Why, why, why?! The Master: Look, why don't you let it go. I wanted violet eyes, but I'm never getting them. The Doctor: You know why, you know exactly why.
Even though Brendan wasn't one of his actual lives but just a illusion made up by his adopted mother/the Matrix, Brendan was in fact ginger! So he's got that one atleast.
AdomkXG wait? Brendon didn’t happen? What were the flashbacks? Why did the Docs adopted mother create an illusion? I’m about to rewatch the episode... Edit: this is such an episode that needs rewatching before judging. Just rewatched, completely understand and that Tecteon put a filter over the event that really happened so if the Doctor remembered the Timeless Child events, she’d see the Brendon events literally sitting over the top of the real events so know one would find it suspicious. Brendon surviving the fall was really the Girl regenerating.
This completely destroys galifrey's legacy from 10th and 11th doctors, they explained in both how time lords get their regeneration then this just changes that even though they already had an established reason (The Untempered Schism)
Rivers’s time lord dna would make no sense under this retcon, the only reason she could regenerate even as a human was because she was half born in the tardis and half not (flesh, long story) and was exposed to the time vortex.
Doctor Who now needs the “it was all a dream” treatment from Dallas. Just cut to the Twelfth Doctor about to regenerate in Twice Upon A Time, then pass off Seasons 11 and 12 as a “pre-regeneration fever dream”, and then pick up with the show from there with Capaldi regenerating into a new (the “real”) Thirteenth Doctor.
I don’t think we need throw away 13. Just reveal this whole timeless child thing as an elaborate prank by the Master, Rani and/or Rassilon and may be bring in a new writer.
Remember when the doctor was 900 years old and it was impressive
Before all the bullshittery complications from Moffat and Chibnall
Arian Rahman Moffat was ok but chibnall is worst
Which 900 years old? McCoy's or Ecclestone's?
@@f1since08 Tom Baker's
@@arianrahman5886 Moffat is a talented and creativley brimming writer and nobody can tell me otherwise. Although I wasn't fan of some his plots, they were at least understandably creative.
Does this imply that Ruth is a pre-Hartnell Doctor?
Because if that’s the case, why does she have the police box TARDIS?
Police Box Tardis is probably somehow related to his/her time in the Division and not the one he stole. Maybe the broken one he stole choose that form because of some residual psychic link? Not sure. Just trying to make somehow sense of all of this.
@MonkeyZorr I'm pretty sure this is canon whether you like it or not.
Maybe it was still using the chameleon feature, and since the doctor was there, and was used to a police box, it camouflaged to look like something that wouldn't be a surprise for her to see?
Just a theory and i don't think it would make that much sense since Ruth doctor knew what it was going to look like(or seemed to) when she said this is my ship
@CartoonishIdealism. It sort of does but also opens it to not be, as RuthDoctor doesn't actually answer when asked if she is one of the 'previous' ones. Maybe it will be explained that she is actually between 2 and 3 as some fans theorised before, thus explaining the police box. Otherwise it doesn't work. I did hear another fan theory that the Doctor only perceived the Tardis as a police box because that's what she is used to, a sort of personal perception filter, I guess that would work but its a bit of a cop out and really only so we could get the shock factor of seeing the Tardis buried in Fugitive of the Judoon.
My theory is that the Ruth-Doctor is from another timeline where she escaped from Gallifrey before they could manipulate her memories. It would also explain why they are searching for her because after her services in the Division she was supposed to forget the things she done but she still has the knowledge which could be dangerous for example because she did illegal things.
Can't The Doctor just be a madman w/ a box, passing through, helping out. Why make him/her the most important person in the universe?
Because Chibnall is a hack.
why not both
Because dw has became stale over the years they needed a pick me up
You can't blame Chibnall for that, as this was something hinted by Andrew Cartmel during the Seventh Doctor era.
Did you not see the episode Turn Left? You know why they are the most important person in the universe.
The Master should've been the Timeless Child. This would TRULY make the Master's hate for the Timelords completely understandable. Plus, there's something about the most important man being a psycho and the source of the doctors powers (and the doctor feeling guilty using it) which sounds kinda epic.
You, random youtube commenter, are a genius
He still could be. If The Doctor Lies, how much moreso The Master?
I am actually making a video story about this.
@@enigmagenesis7341I'll subscribe to you now so I see it :)
@@enigmagenesis7341it sounds very interesting, are you still on it ? 🥺
That’s what I thought- I thought there would be a big reveal that it was The Master and that he just told The Doctor that to mess with her, or convince her to join him in the destruction of Gallifrey and the Timelords
Well, if the next showrunner doesn't like this (remember when the Doctor was supposed to be half human?) this will be retconned as one giant lie.
Andy H master’s giant lie
Rassilon was salty after getting kicked out in Hell Bent so he tampered with the Matrix to mess with the Doctor
@@eli_berdugo04 that's my headcanon now
Have they retconned anything from new who yet, classic has always been a mess so it’s impossible not to retcon that but I can’t think of it happening these days
@@georgechambers2192 yeah, the whole story about the Other and the sister hood stuff is gone
“Which title? It has two - “Gallifrey falls” or “No more”
Chris Chibnall:
“it’s all one title: NO, GALLIFREY FALLS MORE!”
LMAO 🤣
@@custard_paradox
Chris Chibnall: "No, it's "Gallifrey falls once again""
Showrunner: "Chris, my man, you're a genius!"
Chris: "Thank you, Chris ... I mean showrunner, I mean ... eh ... timey wimey ...?"
as the war doctor said NO MORE i'm done with this.....
Gallifrey falls... Again !
The fans reply "galifrey falls? No more."
For a moment I expected the Master to be the timeless child, which might explain his madness and how he comes back again and again
He does not regenerate, Love takes over bodies as if it were a parasite. He was then revived with a new regenerative cycle to be a soldier in Time War.
His madness was explained in The Series 3 finale
I would've preferred if it was the Master tbh, but I'm not mad either way.
Amen.
@XAndroid1 the hybrid plot is over for a looong time bud
The Master's anger would have made more sense if he were the timeless child. Angry that the timelords experimented on him and hid the truth from him. That would have been better motivation for him to destroy them
I totally agree
But even the master ran out of regenerations in the classic era and took over Tremas and Eric’s body in the movie. So how could the master possibly be the Timeless Child?! This whole thing is such a bad idea. Aren’t the Master, Rani and the Doctor supposedly like siblings or something like that… or hinted to be? I know that’s never been really confirmed but I don’t see how the timeless child could be anyone we really know. Heck we don’t fully know why the Fugitive Doctor was on the run in the first place. Maybe the Doctor learned about the timeless child and refused to take part in the Division and wanted to protect the child from the timelords. But because the Doctor was determined in finding the timeless child and saving them, the timelords finally captured the Doctor and wiped their memories to stop the Doctor. Maybe the swarm are the timeless child and sought to fight the Doctor because they believed the Doctor was just like the rest of the timelords. I just still believe that there is room for all this to come together and that the Doctor and neither the master are the timeless children but someone new and unheard of but hinted at before across the series. Who knows?!… But I am hopeful that the conclusion will be much more satisfying and interesting then anyone has thought of yet. Keep your hopes up!
@@fdr8343 how could the doctor possibily be the timeless child? We saw at 11's regeneration that he literally couldn't regenerate until the regeneration energy came from the crack
@@splatinumm I said the timeless child can’t be someone we know on screen. The character, the identity of the timeless child must be someone new. It can’t be the Master or The Doctor. Wouldn’t make sense.
@@fdr8343 It's really just a theory but I think the time lords took away the timeless child's infinite regenerations somehow in order to stop it from becoming more powerful and become a threat.
I still don't like the idea of the Doctor being the timeless child, I think it would work best if they were the master as it brings something a bit new to him. It's also not like the Doctor whose regenerations we know, the Master has lots of empty squares that could potentially be the timeless child (it also gives him a better motive to destroy Gallifrey).
Having it be the Master makes it interesting while not destroying everything we love about the series.
About the ending: I hate how the Doctor just left that one TARDIS - a living, sentient creature - on the side of the road like some broken down car, and then basically said "sucks to be you", before abandoning it on a deserted Earth.
I agree that it's sad for that Tardis to be alone but what should the Doctor have done? She can't just fly two and she went through so much with her Tardis. Maybe one day there is somebody who is worthy of getting a Tardis of their own but until then I think it's better for this Tardis to be on a planet full of life than on a completely dead Gallifrey.
I think if it needs to once activated it can fly itself
Ninth Doctor: Let [the tardis] become a strange thing standing on a street corner.
Some kid climbing it: "look dad I'm climbi- what the hell?!"
TARDISes aren't just simple lifeforms that get bored or lonely, especially with their deep connection to time. Remember in The Doctors Wife? The TARDIS doesn't even have a linear perspective of time and events
Silence will fall when the question is asked.
Voices were raised when the question was answered.
Not bad.
This deserves more attention
Hmm... incredibly insightful actually. Well done.
Heck, the whole point of that was that that wasn’t the answer that mattered, but who would say said answer. Who the Doctor is doesn’t matter, that’s what they do that does. The episode thatself concludes with this, why’d we need this stupid retcon?
@@DuelaDent52 We don't. Chibnall clearly thought he did.
In 'Let's Kill Hitler', why did the Doctor need River's remaining regenerations to survive? Wouldn't he just, you know, regenerate?
Exactly
Oh well river died for no reason
Probably for the same reasons he needed to obtain more regenerations from the Timelords.
After finding out about the regeneration rule they must have tempered with the Doctor's DNA in order to maybe limit the regenerations in order to keep the secret
Probably because they hadn’t thought this bit up yet. They are trying to squeeze this into it, barely. By doing this, I guess it implies the doctor didn’t know he’d regenerate. He would have still thought he only had 12 regenerations when in fact he had so many more.
It’s nothing more then a continuity error on their part
This whole story arc wouldve been so much better if the master simply said "me" instead of "you"
Could still happen... I mean, nothing was really set in stone.
The Master has previously run out of Regenerations, become a walking corpse, possessed someone else to keep living, died permanently, and been brought back by the Time Lords. He can't be the Timeless Child.
@@Caroniver_Robocacci Well, technically... you're mentioning more facts that he could be the Timeless Child than not. Or wait... were you being sarcastic? It's just none of those show it's impossible to have a past self before the Master, those are personal achievements after the Timeless Child and the creation of Gallifrey society. He can still be the Timeless Child and do those things. Personally, I don't think it's the Master, too much ego for him... but hey, the answer could always be less linear.
@@ReversedPolarity The Timeless Child is immortal. Unlimited Regenerations. While the Doctor not Regenerating in Time of the Doctor can be attributed to them never really dying, the Master straight-up +runs out of Regenerations_ . It was a huge plot point. If the Master were the Timeless Child, _The Deadly Assassin_ would be completely invalidated.
@@Caroniver_Robocacci Well, while you can point out the events of the Doctor's death as a potential red herring, another possibility is the facts stay true to what we know. After all, the Doctor still needed the extra boost and was also provided by the only Time Lord who stayed immortal - Rassilon. As for the Master, it's a good point and I sometimes see it in the comments, but does it invalidate his future altogether?... Well, not exactly (as I explain below).
In the expanded lore (not that you need it to make sense of it), Rassilon made the twelve regeneration cycle to avoid the issues caused by immortality (as well as to fulfill his egotistical needs), and that was a rule all Time Lords had to abide, even the Doctor, so there could've been a way to cut down immortality. Even if the Master or the Doctor kept regenerating, just like any Time Lord would before Rassilon's judgement, the base cycle would have to be reset at 12, at least if the facts remain true. Another possibility is Rassilon searched for immortality and kept the secret - but what is the need for that if Time Lord genetics already allowed that? Plus, he wasn't a scholar like Borusa, or a clever cog like Omega.
As for the Master, we know he looked at the Untempered Schism during his initiation rituals, so he was exposed by the winds of the Time Vortex, just like the Timeless Child and that's a plot point too, so him becoming the Timeless Child isn't all that farfetched either. You can also consider the possibility of the title for the finale (the Timeless Children)... hinting that maybe the Timeless Child could be a hybrid, meaning there could be a different person before the Master with an independent set of regenerations, thus not invalidating the Deadly Assassin. The same point applies to the Doctor too. Personally, I don't think the Master is a part of that hybrid either since there is a better candidate, but... you never know.
Great, now her introduction is going to be "I'm the Doctor, I'm a unknown species, from an unknown planet and I was once captured by a scavenger race who experimented on me, stealing my identity and everything special"
yes :(
Well no not really. She was still brought up on Gallifrey as a time lord and was saved and raised by tecteun. So???
@@BanthaBoi but she's not from there and isn't a time lord
@dr103 Exactly, if I lived in a country for my whole life and then turns out i was born in another country, doesnt change my nationality
I don't like this because of how much it retcons so much-- I'm actually down with the Doctor being at odds with the Time Lords and being an unknown alien.
I saw it coming, but it would make way more sense if it was the master. Explains why he regenerated so much.
The first TV master was the twelfth regeneration. After that he still regenerated a few times.
He does not regenerate, Love takes over bodies as if it were a parasite. He was then revived with a new regenerative cycle to be a soldier in Time War.
Actually he never regenerated after Delgado until his Utopia regeneration, he just stole the bodies of Ainely and Roberts and then was resurrected in the Time War as Jacobi
@@jasondavidson9491 I'm talking about every regeneration. Onscreen and of screen
I would have preferred it be the master as well. It would have explained why he destroyed Gallifrey because he hated the fact he was tortured
@@techmaster1769 Yes but the TV Show is official canon whereas off screen canon is debatable
10 seasons long: Gallifrey was at war, we saved it and finally found it!
Season 12: LOL everyone is dead.
Heartbreaking really. Both hearts :(
It wasn't 10 seasons of trying to save Gallifrey, it was a special that retconned the Doctor into having a secret Doctor that wasn't the doctor because they fought in a war. That 9 and 10 owned up to fighting in.
Followed by a season of Matt Smith not bothering to find Gallifrey, and a 2nd special that showed Gallifrey in one of them cracks that erases memories of everything that goes into it.
And then Gallifrey was saved off screen by 12, and he never bothered visiting it until time lords kidnapped him for 20 minutes before he left without a care in the world.
At least 13 showed some emotion at stepping back on Gallifrey, even if it was to see the ruins.
Moffet was the one who wrote Gallifrey back into the story, only to have them hide outside of time, and then be scolded by the Doctor then then forgotten about.
@@Carts45 Yep, Moffat was pretty terrible. What's the show called now to you? Was Gallifrey that important that it stopped you caring for the show?
@@Carts45 fair enough. Making a regenerating baby because 2 time travelers banged in the Tardis doesn't make sense to me. Or creating an immortal being out of the carcass of a dead girl and a space lozenge.
So is Doctor Why a spin off or parody? If it's a spin off will we get appearances from Doctor Who? If a parody, which Doctor Who do you want parodied?
Making the Doctor the most important being in the universe takes away everything that makes the Doctor good
And it totally destroyed the mystery of the Doctor! I think that explaining everything just ruins the mystery for the audience. For example, we don’t know what the Meta-Crisis Doctor whispered into Rose’s ear, but we can imagine what was said.
@NovaWolf Gaming true
@NovaWolf Gaming The 12th doctor sums up well exactly who the doctor is supposed to be. "An idiot with a screwdriver and a box, travelling through the universe, helping out when he can"
making that person the pinnacle reason why the most advance civilization is a product of the doctor is unbelievably stupid and just uninteresting. let me ask you this, you said
"doesn't that make us ask the question again though?"
well to that I say....do you really care enough to wanna know?
@NovaWolf Gaming Well good news friend i can refresh your memory. The Doctor is a time lord from a planet called galifrey, he has two hearts, stupid clothes, a screwdriver and a time machine he uses to go on adventures and help out when he can. that's the character of the doctor you claim to love
if you care about the timeless child then im sorry but i don't think we care about the same character. in my gods honest personal opinion.
@NovaWolf Gaming "the doctor is but the character isn't"
oi vay that's actually sad to see that honestly, the doctor is the character my friend lol. I do care about the show trust me, and it wasn't completely failing, quite honestly it was doing just fine. but ironically ever since Chibnall's era has come out the ratings have plummet dramatically. and as you can see by the rest of this comment section, I'm not in the minority of people who hate this era, in fact, almost all you see is hate for the timeless child and this era
it wasn't failing before, but it certainly is now :)
So Doctor Who is Palpatine granddaughter?
Lol love that comment yep she's dr mary sue now
@Erik The Existor shows dead , slow decline
@Erik The Existor lol if she needs training then shes not a mary sue they dont need anything they are automatically the bestest evar
@Erik The Existor the doctor is Whittaker ain't
Lol the rise of whowalker
This makes no sense at all.
1. If the Doctor is not a time lord, why do they have two hearts and other aspects of time lord biology?
2. Why can River Song regenerate?
3. Why did the Doctor have to be granted more regenerations in season 7?
4. Didn't Rassilon found time lord society?
5. Why wasn't the Doctor more revered, rather than simply being treated as an eccentric?
6. What about the family/families the Doctor has had? Were they born with their "unique" abilities, and why weren't they subject to study?
7. Why didn't Clara see any of the Doctor's supposed pre-Hartnell regenerations in the time stream? I can sorta overlook her not seeing his future selves because they hadn't happened yet, but that is now a gaping plothole.
8. What narrative purpose does any of this reveal serve, besides needlessly changing over 50 years of lore and turning the show's main character into some pre-destined chosen one, rather than a traveler simply trying to do the right thing.
1. They lied. That is their credo.
2. She was created from his symbiotic link to the Tardis.
3. They just jump started his/her limited battery capacity.
4. Rassilon was probably the step mother who experimented on her.
5. Because the future generations didn't know the truth. Only Rassilon did as he/she had a limitless regeneration cycle as well.
6. The regeneration power cannot be inherited apparently.
7. It puts weight behind the old theories that the Doctor is truly immortal in a sense. Bridging the canon.
1: Maybe the Time Lords got the Doctor's biology, and not the other way around.
2: River Song can regenerate because she was conceived in the Time Vortex, which might have been made by the Time Lords with the powers they gained from the Doctor's biology.
3: Either, the Time Lords successfully limited the Doctor's regenerations and gave him back the ability at the end of season 7, or he didn't regenerate because he didn't know he could regenerate, and the Time Lords gave him more regeneration energy to make him think he could do it again and to keep the secret. Or actually, they might not even have known themselves.
4: Rassilon could still be one of the founders of Time Lord society.
5: The Time Lords who knew who the Doctor was, might have feared her/him, and most of the Gallifreyans probably wouldn't know. The few who did, probably wanted all the power for themselves, and didn't want anyone to know. This could also be a mystery for another time in future episodes.
6: I don't know whether you mean the original or adoptive families. Neither we nor the Time Lords know anything about the Doctor's original family, and the adoptive families she/he might have had during her/his lives were probably just normal Gallifreyans and perhaps some times Time Lords. If you mean the original family, we might find out more next season.
7: Good question. I'd love to have that answered myself.
This could all still just be a big elaborate lie either by the Master of the Time Lords. There are more ways for it to be false than true. Yet we cannot deny that either way could work with decent writers.
I know Doctor says time lord to describe the species that live on Gallifrey but that’s not the case. The phrase time lord refers to beings with the ability to regenerate and have studied time and space to some degree in the academy. Being a time lord is Gallifrey’s version having a Phd. So not all time lords are gallifreyan and not all gallifreyans are time lords. Technically river song is a human time lord(hence her single heart and other human attributes). And the general public of gallifrey doesn’t have the ability to regenerate but still have two hearts.
Who knows at this point all you are going to get is unreliable speculation
Josh Kruszyna
1) they used the doctors genes to form Gallifreyan biology. Over time they grew two hearts. Could be linked to regeneration also.
2) River can regenerate because of the time vortex. We don’t know where the doctor got the regeneration cycle from, like whether it was innate or whether it was from the vortex - but most likely it will be because of the vortex
3) someone suggested that the Time Lords could have done this to keep the fact that the doctor has more regeneration cycles secret. And we don’t know if the Gallifreyans gave the Doctor a set amount of regenerations after they “ reset” him
4) The Master said the Time Lords had been lying. This is most likely a part of the cover up.
5) the Time Lords tried to keep this a secret to make themselves seem high and mighty. If this was something that they had actually stole from a child instead of them just basically being genetically superior, that would make them inferior. They’re very clearly stuck up
6) we don’t know. Hell, they could have been experimented on. There could have been tests. Who knows. Maybe the Time Lords didn’t because they had to keep it a secret, and experimenting on the Doctor’s children would raise questions.
7) the Time Lords erased the Doctor’s memories, allowing the Doctor to live a life as the Doctor sees fit. This gives the Doctor the freedom to be a madman in a box. The Doctor is just trying to do the right thing. They never knew their past. This doesn’t negate from the character. It just adds a backstory and some more mystery and anguish for the Doctor herself.
Chibnall managed to take a big, greasy dump on almost 60 years of backstory within a single episode. By trying to make The Doctor more special by nature of her origin, he made her less special by her actions.
I miss the “Madman with a box”. The person who was willing to sacrifice himself to save Wilfred Mott. Now we have an immortal who lets someone else sacrifice themselves while she runs away.
The Eccleston/Tennant era of doctor who cannot be topped. They are what got me into doctor who and they are my doctors. If doctor who was like that I’d still be watching it.
So you liked the show when it was more like a fairy tale.
tm selection, I don’t think you know what a fairy tale actually is to be referring to the old new who as a fairy tale.
Kurapeak its not just this but all the other times people have died for the Doctor
tm selection Whats wrong with Fairy Tales?
And no, that portion of the show wasn’t even like fairy tale. It was Doctor Who.
This recent crap might be your cup of tea but I and many others watched Doctor Who because it was different, because it showed a better way of living your life not because it was just another of a million stories written till date.
All typical stories where the hero is born special. Has superpowers or some magic. All stories where the hero goes on a journey and fights and fails and then learns... so cliche and lame.
Chibnall just killed the core of the show. He ruined the core of the Doctor, the ‘mad man in a box’ is now a billions years old random immortal kid who doesn’t even remember his own life.
Lol remember when everyone hated Moffat’s writing.
I did too feel guilty now
I'd welcome him back with open arms at this point. I honestly miss him, despite his faults.
Well, Moffat writing still was bad. We just got a much worst writer as a replacement
@@clearshade3560 whos next?
Elizabeth Banks?
Rampant Mutt Yea, tbh I quite liked Moffat and Davis’ writing. But I don’t like Chibnall’s. I mean with Moffat and Davis there are a couple bad episodes but mostly good ones imo, but with Chibnall it’s like reversed.
Because a person has to be born special to do great things, they can't just be a regular person.
Eeeeeeexactly
Just forget about this episode
Oh yeah cause every episode is suddenly invalidated now.
She’s not special-she was just a prisoner-forced to be experimented on-a test dumy
@@samuelbarber6177 This one certainly is.
If Timelords got regeneration from experiments and not from prolonged exposure to Time Travel. Then how did River have regenerations since neither of her parents were Timelords which means that it would literally have been impossible for her to have the ability to regenerate
This reveal exposes plot holes you could drive an entire convoy through.
Because it wasn't merely exposure to the time vortex that created River, but also Madame Kovarian altering her to turn her into the perfect weapon to kill the Doctor.
@@nugagim yeah but we're discussing regenerations. If it's Timelord science then it can't be replicated so River shouldn't be able to. And yet she can. Chibnall ignored the decades worth of precedent just because he couldn't let go of the Morbius Doctors. This isn't a showrunner taking a show in new directions, it's a man making his fanfics canon
@@TheAnakinchosen1 there's no reason Time Lord science couldn't be replicated. Science can be replicated by definition. Also they don't have to replicate Time Lord science, -Tecteun was pre-Time Lord and managed to figure out how to reproduce regeneration.
@@nugagim you’re ignoring the fact river is half human and half timelord….do you think they experimented on river in the tiny span she was alive with dna i doubt they had, because i think its more likely than that being that rory like people jokes was the master or the doctor is his wifes father
Remember when the 10th Doctor sacrificed himself to save Wilf? Furiously screaming at how it wasn’t fair, solely because he KNEW he wasn’t, for one second, going to let someone die when he could take their place.
13th Doctor:
“See ya!”
Or 12th sacrificed himself to just delay, not stop, delay the inevitable attack on the refugees by the Cybermen.
Thirteen is a spineless coward who doesn't behave like the Doctor even when literally just finding out she can die and regenerate limitlessly so it's no loss. New canon: Thirteen isn't the Doctor.
I get your point but I do wanna point out that 10 and 12 both knew they'd regenerate, while 13 was facing imminent final death while just having been told that her entire life was a lie. I thought letting one of the few remaining humans finish the job was a little cheap myself, but I can get why they did it.
@@elliot20201 No 10 actually believed he was going to die that's why he broke down but saved Wilfred anyway thinking he was going to his death, and Twelve was regenerating but after delaying the cyberman with exploding the level they were on, he didn't regenerate, he actually did die he literally sacrificed himself just for the mondasians to live a little longer, he only got brought back to life because of a magical tear or whatever
My interpretation was that the Doctor was unable to press the button not because she didn't want to die, but because she didn't want to kill. The Master says "Become death. Become me." She knows that if she presses the button, and commits genocide, she will be no better than the Master.
It's a similar situation to the Fourth Doctor's famous moral dilemma in "Genesis of the Daleks". Even though he knew the Daleks would bring death and destruction, he still couldn't bring himself to wipe them out.
This is not what a real woman does. This person is an insult to the gender she claims to represent.
Does anybody remember when regeneration was a big event? One so powerful that it broke several parts of the tardis when he did it? Isn’t do special anymore huh?
Well the Classic series didn’t remember that. Besides like Troughton’s death, regenerations tended to just happen. It was Tennant’s regeneration that destroyed the TARDIS and I will never forgive it for that trend
@@samuelbarber6177 This is new who tho, gonna be honest, the old regenerations were a bit boring. All of the doctors new generations, hell even the masters first regeneration in utopia, were all exciting, the first moments of the nergy,nd excitement as the tardis crashes and the doctor learns their new body, and it always built up anticipation for the next series
Kriisan Sundaram my point is this doesn’t really do much to cheapen regeneration. Even if there are a lot of them, this version of the Doctor would still be gone.
Also, there are people saying that ‘Now the Doctor is immortal’ but people also defend ‘I don’t wanna go’ by saying regeneration is like death. So can they die or not. Either regeneration is like death or the Doctor is immortal. That’s neither here nor there though. I just wanted to put that out there.
@@kriisansundaram6941 The doctor learning his new body is actually from Classic Who. The epicness of the regeneration is a new who thing.
Wait, how is it not special anymore? When did it lose its mystery/appeal? Ok, I have a few questions for you then, if you can answer at least three of them correctly and without a doubt, I could potentially rethink your question. I think it's only fair.
1) Do you know how many regenerations the Doctor has?
2) Do you know how many regenerations the Doctor has left?
3) Were there previous incarnations before Hartnell? If yes, say why and who they are. If no, just say why not.
4) Why are the Doctor's regenerations apparently more explosive than other Time Lords'?
5) And here's an easy one (related to your topic) - why did regenerations become more explosive over time while the 12th Doctor got a normal regeneration into 13th?
Rassalon: "You can't just retcon me out of existence!"
Chibnall: "tecteun go brrrrrr"
12: Get off my show.
'Rassalon' sounds like some pasta making tool. But Rassilon was never retconned out of existance, what are you talking about?
Maybe Tecteun is Rassilon?
@@ReversedPolarity according to the lore rassilon was one of the 3 founders of time lord society. Techtuyun retcons the entire founding story
@@giladzxc17 how so? Because she found the secret of Time Lord genetics?
Doctor Who was a show about a quirky space adventurer and their friends as they went on equally quirky and space adventures. It was simple and straightforward, yet charming and bursting to the seams with creativity. The Doctor wasn't the center of the universe of some literal god, they where just a silly spaceman scientist who got in a lot of tight spots. It captivated me and so many others with this simple formula, and I was convinced I was a lifelong fan.
And then this happened.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Raspberry Milkshake I mean, I agree mostly, but if they stuck to the same template now, the show wouldn’t be as fun anymore. It would become repetitive, hence why the show got cancelled and didn’t come back until 2005.
Because they've never done this kind of thing before this. They were planning to reveal that the Doctor basically founded Gallifrey in the 80s
@@greenmango2707 That's the thing though, this doesn't change the formula in anyway, it just worsens the character by making them into some lifelong deific chosen one rather than a wanderer who just wants to do the right thing who merely has the means to moreso than regular people simply because they have extra + longer lives, are highly intelligent and have a time machine. One of the most intriguing parts of the character is that despite being so gargantuan and one of a kind, given the right tools anyone could be the doctor (see many companions like Sarah Jane, Clara and Captain Jack Harkness). Also this "reveal" answers one question "whats the origin of gallifreyan society, by adding at least 12 more:
1. If the Doctor is not a time lord, why do they have two hearts and other aspects of time lord biology?
2. Why can River Song regenerate?
3. Why did the Doctor have to be granted more regeneration's in season 7?
4. Didn't Rassilon found time lord society?
5. Why wasn't the Doctor more revered, rather than simply being treated as an eccentric?
6. What about the family/families the Doctor has had? Were they born with their "unique" abilities, and why weren't they subject to study?
7. Why didn't Clara see any of the Doctor's supposed pre-Hartnell regeneration's in the time stream? I can sorta overlook her not seeing his future selves because they hadn't happened yet, but that is now a gaping plothole.
8. What narrative purpose does any of this reveal serve, besides needlessly changing over 50 years of lore and turning the show's main character into some pre-destined chosen one, rather than a traveller simply trying to do the right thing.
"Why was she left in our universe?
Who and what civilisation did she come from?
Why was she abandoned?
Where did that tear in reality come from?
"
The Dr was never the main feature of the show.... It was the adventures...To say it would become repetitive Green Mango is like saying oops we ran out of words. It got cancelled because it lost it's way and looked inwards to much.... and because it was never given enough respect by the bbc ...ahhhh here we are again.
The issue with the Timeless Child isn’t the fact that it destroys decades of Doctor Who canon. No, it’s far worse it destroys Doctor Who’s future because now no matter what happens The Doctor is a god with infinite regeneration ability. It removes all future conflict and stakes from the show.
Assuming... That the Master is right. See, I don't think so I think he's got part of the picture and he's leapt to certain conclusions. Of course he sees The Doctor as the Timeless child because then all his past failures, every day the doctor outsmarted him makes sense. there was no possible way he could defeat the Timelord's Optimus Prime. To a being as arrogant and egocentric as the Master nothing else could make sense. But I think the master... Is wrong.
@@LAGUEp666 the master lied to the doctor but he gets something out of it I think he has lied to him once in the revival whenhe was the misi but the ulterior motive to was to make him suffer , what would he gain by lying to her here
@@andrewcruzsmith2343 I didn't say he was lying I said he was wrong! Stone. Dead. Wrong! I have absolutely no doubt that the Master believes The Doctor is the Timeless Child. He blew Galifrey to flinders out of revenge for goodness' sake BUT I think that he's misinterpreted the legend and the Timeless Child is some other figure we haven't seen yet. Entertaining for a moment the possibility that he's lying the only other thing I can think he might be gaining is to throw the Doctor off balance but there are more effective ways of doing so than forcing someone to buy into the fact that they're at the centre of their race's creation myth.... Possibly bragging rights that you pulled it off but even so...
@@LAGUEp666 1)apologies for my miss interpretation 2) no one more than me wants to believe that the timeless child was miss represented by the master but christ wanted it to be the doctor , the only way they can fix it is for them to retcon it
@@andrewcruzsmith2343 OR have the actual timeless child show up at a later point and the Doctor, through the whole psychic thing realising there's no way this is an earlier version of herself.
Wow I really wish the movies and shows I love would stop getting slaughtered in pursuit of cheap shock factors because of lazy writing and lack of direction.
Yeah, but this is not so bad. If Chib can add other half to the mystery, it might work.
It's starting to get personal tbh
@ Objectivism sucks
T Sivils -- I don't think it's "lazy" writing. I think Chibnall is doing his best -- and his best just happens to be *terrible*.
@@ichabod1370 🤣maybe so lol but ik for a fact some of the other franchises I enjoy are affected by absolute lazy writing. The star wars sequels for instance. They did not plan out a trilogy and had to make it up along the way. Primarily using reactions from the audience to guide them instead of having a concrete story they were proud of and stuck to throughout. But rey is a mystery. Well nope shes a nobody. Well no now thats not true bc shes actually a palpatine and has to re-examine her life and person to determine of she is still who she thought she was and has to decide to stick to what she knows and believes rather than to follow the path her past might set her on. Sound familiar lol? Just cheap shock value to answer audience questions that don't always need to be answered.
The doesn't explain River Song's regenerations.
She wasn't even a time lord to begin with
Nor does it explain the scene were Matt Smith gained regenerations
Castellan of Gundabad She was part Time Lord due to exposure to the Time Vortex when she was conceived.
Fan theory: The Time Lords created the ability to time travel by injecting the "regeneration energy" into the Time Vortex. That's why River had the ability to regenerate after being exposed to the Time Vortex.
Ben Jones
That’s what I was thinking. Didn’t Clara beg the time lords to give him more regenerations?
Does this mean Clara's speech in time of the doctor didn't mean anything
Yes
Bingo, she got to see all the versions of the Doctor and his entire timeline, except for now she didn't because reasons
sonic ninja studios and friends I guess it sort of makes sense now because they didn’t want the doctor to know. I’m really annoyed about this
Same
I think the Timelords stole the Doctor's ability to regenerate past 12 times by that point, because you do see them give the ability back. Plus it would make sense if they wanted their cover story that the Doctor was a simple Time Lord to remain in place.
The doctor's age just got even more confusing.
The doctor is 2200 years old
@@Mental_Warlock that was stated BEFORE the revelation of the timeless child.
I guess hr/she is immortal and from a different dimension
@@se1j114Thats... What this scene is about.
Techmaster more confusing than the biggest controversy the Doctor Who series had??
How did the master destroy Gallifrey single-handedly, when it took billions of daleks several years to destroy Gallifrey?
Terrible writing.
He realized he can do it without explaining anything if he does that off-screen 🤡
Because he’s just as smart as the Doctor without his moral code. Look at how often the Doctor has committed genecide without even trying, and you’re angry the Master is able to do it in a fit of rage? Plus, that was in a war, so the Time Lords were expecting it, not the Master
@@deadpooldan9862Exactly. The Doctor would have destroyed Gallifrey with The Moment had their morality not stopped them
@@ceridwenmillington3955 even with that, the only reason they didn’t destroy Gallifrey was because Clara convinced them not to. Even then, 10 and 11 both remembered destroying Gallifrey, and they didn’t want to see it again, so they luckily figured out an alternative
RT Davis: he’s the last of the time lords
Steven Moffat: he’s a madman with a box who helps people.
Chibs: IMMA END THIS SHOWS WHOLE CAREER!!!
Under Moffat it was a Lonely God.
The shows not ending though.
@jadc08 Hh, you're right. My bad.
Chibnall turned the Doctor from a simple timelord who turned himself into one of the most dangerous and powerful people in the universe who intimidates all the monsters by his reputation into "Hey the doctor is now just a god and is special because of that"
kreepercraft Chibnall literal made the Timeless Child twist relevant to the Doctor’s character in the same episode.
How could river song regenerate if it’s genetically?
How did the master take on all the time lords?
Can the doctor regenerate unlimited times?
And how did the 11th doctor gain more regenerations if he already had them ?
Because Chris Chibnall ... You can also add, how comme the black woman doctor got a police box tardis when it was Hartnell's doctor ( later incarnation ) who stole it ?
Obi-wan Kenobi 1) they used the genetic components of the doctor to uncover the time vortex thus the conception of river thru the time vortex.
2) he’s awesome
3) as of now yes
4) maybe as a manipulation from the time lords. I do see them
Doing so to keep him in check
The Doctor is a limited battery. He has to stockpile archon energy to fuel his/her regeneration. Infinite power source, limited capacity.
Obi-wan Kenobi I was asking the last question to myself, maybe he was going to regenerate anyway but the time lords made it seem like they gave him another cycle
1) this doesn’t state how the doctor got regenerations. Just that she was where they came from. She could have got them from the Time Vortex, like River
2) they didn’t really explore that, and I doubt they will.
3) Nobody knows. That’s kind of the point, now they can add as many as they want and it wouldn’t contradict the cannon.
4) the 11th Doctor was given regenerations by the Time Lords. It’s possible that the Doctor could have had more regenerations left after 11, but that he didn’t know he did. And we don’t know if the Time Lords gave the Doctor a set amount of regenerations when they “reset” him. (or whatever they did, we don’t know yet).
The show should be renamed Doctor Why
But how?..Or when?
DoctorWhat also fits
I call it Doctor How Many?
"At this point, it's more like Doctor Why Bother."
- Sheldon Cooper
Doctor how
Let's hope the writers can find a way to correct this abomination.
They can make it so the Master was lying and that HE is the Timeless Child, it would be better and make more sense.
@Alfa&Omega 00000 or its actually Rassilong back for the 60th anniversary, would also explain why Rassilon was so hateful and commanding, after all Tecteun did to him.
What if that the master gave the Doctor an answer that they could better accept with them being the Timeless Child when in a big twist it could be revealed that they were in fact Tek Tey Un (I don't know how to spell it) and that the Doctor did all the horrible things to the Timeless Child. The Doctor could find out by reading the timelord database or the TARDIS's and they confront the Master in a big confrontation thanking him for being merciful but to never tell a lie about they're past to them.
@@bonniestar4707 Yeah I like the Master being the timeless child more
Well, it's not an abomination if parts of it aren't exactly as the Matrix or the Master say... what if I told you most of this knowledge might not even be real? The truth is: all we know comes from the Master and the Matrix, but nothing is exactly 2+2=4. Where did he get all this information if we didn't, just by looking at the facts? Why are there glitches in the Matrix? Why is there a mixed timeline with another Doctor? And why is Ruth's Doctor inside the Matrix?
If it does come true, then one asks the ultimate question - did it change anything? Well, not really, the First Doctor can still be the First Doctor, and we can be pretty sure he had previous incarnations because Hartnell's Doctor was the bearer of the Promise, and probably not the one who made it (just like when the War Doctor decided to reintroduce the Promise and the 9th Doctor became the bearer). We also know more about Time Lord society and regeneration (which seems quite true as a revelation) and the Timeless Child makes sense if you consider River's unusual origin.
The only thing I say it changes is the Doctor's humble nature - it makes the Doctor special when there's no need for it, depending on how they do it. The special thing about the Doctor was that he/she came from a humble, altruist place. He doesn't need to be a special Time Lord, but... as the 7th Doctor also said: _I am far more than just another Time Lord._ Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but that we don't know. Whatever it is, the Doctor does seem to have a mystery about itself, but shouldn't come at the expense of becoming 'naturally special', maybe it could come at the expense of a different revelation. Until then, we can only speculate.
If this Timeless Child was separate from The Doctor, I wouldn’t have minded this twist.
The child should've been The Master!
They are separate in my eyes. The Child was a thing used by the Time Lords for their own selfish gain. My theory is the Time Lords converted the Child into a bog standard Time Lord who would one day call himself the Doctor
The Child was a battery, a tool that was used by a species of selfish aliens. The Doctor is a kind person who flew away to explore the stars
The Dodo it doesn’t change the Doctor in anyway....all this says is that she’s been around longer than even she was aware of. That doesn’t take anyway from the character; it only adds to it. Not only is she the Doctor, she’s so much more.
TheFallofTheEleventh And that’s not what I want them to be.
Chris O'Master are you actually stupid or something? I’m being serious here. People like you keep complaining that this has somehow magically taken away from the character when it didn’t do that whatsoever.....You’re acting like Chibnall said ‘screw everything that came before’ when in reality he’s given the character of the Doctor the ability to live on for generations of future viewers to enjoy which is what the showrunners have been trying to do since the classic series..... The show has been hinting at this story since Tom Bakers Era and was going to be done with Slyvester McCoy before the Classic Series was axed and now we finally have it.
You claim this makes the doctors previous 13 lives mean so little when Chibnall is telling you that it doesn’t matter who the face of the Doctor is or how many different Doctors there are, the character lives on through all of them.....that’s the whole point of the show....
This is not only a stupid swerve that screws with a lot of canon and makes the Doctor a more uninteresting character, but the method of the reveal itself is so lazy and unexciting. Just a close up of the Master as he says it.
@Char Aznable Any other person would face life in prison or the death penalty; this was more than child cruelty, it was continuous torture/ child abuse.
Chrono Katie
The Master dude slightly makes up for that by being the best actor on the show.
Oh, I can see you've been doing changes to Doctor's who history... I don t like it!
@Char Aznable it wasn't trivialised, the whole idea is that what the gallifreyian did was horrible, and the scientist wasn't the protagonist, she is the antagonist.
I hate this twist and the whole season, but you don't need to try and find more made-up reasons why it's bad
Agreed 💯
And then capaldi wakes up
And then says right let's fix this crap
Punches the dreamlord in the face
ruclips.net/video/LuQmBrfrLFE/видео.html
Obi Wan Kenobi With Mobile Data don’t do that. Don’t give me hope.
And then Tennant wakes up...
Dear Steven Moffat,
I take back everything I’ve ever said about your writing
Here’s how I’d revise the Timeless Child storyline:
1. Ruth is not the Doctor. She lied to her so she could steal her identity and travel the universe under her name.
2. Ruth is the Timeless Child. The entire backstory of the Timeless Child as explained by the Master (minus the Doctor being the Timeless Child) is still true.
3. Ruth plotted with the Master to destroy Gallifrey again as a way to exact revenge on the Timelords for their cruelty to her.
That’s just a basic idea. There’s so much you could do with this that I can’t think about right now.
I don't know about the first one. I feel like Ruth is more the doctor than Jodie.
Ayush boi its already happened, during the 6th doctor i believe. Really interesting stuff though
Nick Moran I think they mean the Valeyard should return in the modern era. Which I definitely agree with, he was awesome.
Interesting points, but here's how I'd revise your revision:
1. Ruth is the Doctor (as stated by Chibnall), an alternate organic or temporal copy with a different outcome (not a parallel version, also stated by the Chibs). She has been an essential part in a temporal shenanigan by the Founding Fathers of Gallifrey or may have undergone some procedure which split the original Timeless Child timeline.
2. Ruth may be one of the parts of the Timeless Child, though another part could be another dubious character we know. Most of the backstory of the Timeless Child, as explained by the Master, is false or misinterpreted, apart from a few elements that can be corroborated by past facts.
3. Ruth's link in the Matrix helped the Doctor to plan her escape, so perhaps she's helpful to the Doctor's cause in finding the truth, or maybe Ruth's work will lead into a new problem - perhaps, her employers.
There's definitely a lot one can speculate. But it's a fun exercise. We're probably all wrong by the end, but it was still fun nonetheless ;)
I don’t mind the idea behind the child. But the Doctor? Nah, that’s just cliched.
The doctors name doesn’t matter anymore now, if he lived lives he doesn’t even remember, then the name he keeps hidden and knows isn’t even his real name and therefore isn’t a big deal anymore
Turns out the Doctor's real name is Leshawndra, he keeps it hidden because he's embarassed.
@@maftet969 I choose to believe that 10 told us it and we just didn't believe him. The Doctor in my mind will always be Bingle Bongle Dingle Dangle Yikkidy Du Kikkidy Da Lippy Tuppy To Ta
of course it matters. all this did was the time-lord equivalent of past lives. like finding out you were Hitler in your past life. does that change who you are now? your current life is not defined by who you are in a past you dont remember. so the doctor's name, yes it still matters
AGO-Studios past lives don’t exist, and also the doctor is now immortal.
i hope a better writer will come along and fix this
Biggest Doctor's enemies:
3) Cyberman
2) Daleks
1) And above all: Chibnall
After reading these comments, I'm comparing the reaction to Zeb Wells' Spider-Man run with this.
There's a lot of problems with this. Let's split it into 3 categories.
*Character
*Canon
*The after effects of this episode.
And at the end I'll give a rating (0-10) and my reasons why.
Character :
The Doctor was originally a grumpy old grandfather with mysterious origins travelling through time and space with his Granddaughter Susan and her teachers. At the beginning of the travels The First Doctor is cold and distant to everyone but towards the end he becomes more welcoming and open. If the doctor was always special and always had these traits the impact and growth of Hartnell's doctor meant nothing. The doctor wasn't meant to be special, they were supposed to be some random bloke who liked to help people out but on Gallifrey they were treat like just some guy. That's what they were. You've lost relatibility because most people aren't born special. Let's move on.
Canon:
Not only have you managed to make Hartnell's doctor meaningless but you can't even get the Canon correct, When Clara meets the doctor-the First doctors younger self he is a child and two time lords mention how he isn't fit to be a time lord meaning that no-he wasn't space Christ he was just a child and Hartnell's Doctor was a child - what's your excuse that makes sense? Clara goes through all of the Doctors time line in the episode titled 'the name of the doctor' before coming across the war doctor - here she says 'I saw all of you, 11th faces - you're the eleventh doctor' should I keep going? Omega says this to the Doctor 'I was sacrificed to the SUPERNOVA WHILE MY BROTHERS BECAME TIME LORDS!' was Omega just wrong or did you retcon him out because you're a hack Chib?
After Effects:
You've ruined the relatibility of the doctor and less people are going to be inspired because you've set up the message that you can't become special through your actions and that you're born special which is insulting to the men, women and children who have been inspired for 50+ years. You've ignored the Canon and retconned Omega, a well written and good character, in favour of cheap suspense and a bad twist. You've ruined the character development of the first doctor.
Rating:
For the first time ever... Negative 10 and for the first time ever I cannot be bothered to explain why-I hate it that much.
Omega wasn't retconned, he's responsible for discovering Time Travel, not regeneration. I agree with most of what you said though.
@@lorddiaceliumchauffeurdeta211 Thanks! I'm fairly certain he was one of the og but...
Because everyone can relate to the two hearted alien from Gallifrey.
Did you pay attention? They regressed the Doctor’s age and released him into the wild. The Timeless Child was a closely guarded secret.
@@samuelbarber6177 The doctor was a nobody who became a somebody that was the point of his character.
A Birb I thought it was to be the wise old alien man who explained everything?
Instead of the Doctor regenerating, cant we have the writers getting fired?
Just a thought.
I'm absolutely baffled as to what fans want. What do they want going forward?
Video Game Animation Study I think fans want to go back to the Russel T Davis style of writing. Its more so about the Doctors relationships with his companions and how those relationships effect the Doctor. Like a breaking Bad style doctor who show.
@@tierk4328
Fair enough. People would get bored eventually though. Things like this shake it up. If we have Doctor/character interaction only, we end up with Series 11.
Honestly, people aren't meant to watch it constantly, it's designed for kids who come of age and grow out of it.
Video Game Animation Study But things written for kids like ATLA can still appeal to adults if they are written well.
@@VideoGameAnimationStudy people arnt meant to watch it constantly? Google the term Fanbase.
"Gallifrey falls no more." Oh wait, actually let's make it fall again even though we just wrapped up that story arc less than two series ago. Also what kind of security does Gallifrey have that one single Time Lord (who is well known for causing trouble) can simply get pissed off one day and destroy their entire civilization?
Well, we see the Master lose so often to the Doctor, we tend to forget how much of a threat he'd be to normal people, even Time-Lords.
This should be called 'How to destroy 56 years of canon in less than an hour.'
@XAndroid1 That would imply that Doctor Who had a set canon to begin with.
XAndroid1 but it did destroy cannon, you obviously haven’t done research.
@@tacticalrobloxiansunited7441
It didn't destroy any canon. It's adding to the canon. Nothing has changed to what's previously been established. Get over it, this is how it is now.
Watch it or don't watch it, the Doctor is an alien to this universe.
@@mrguff9304 It did destroy canon, everything has changed or the Master wouldn't have needed to say everything we know is a lie. I think you need to go back and watch it from the start as you don't seem to understand it's history.
@@Trev359
I understand it very well, I also understand it's a family program aimed at kids, and that I'm not really that bothered if they add to the story.
What on _earth_ do you want from the series? Just literally repeating the same 7 stories over and over?
They can retcon this by saying the Master made it all up, that was make us all happy.
What if the Master is being played as well? id say both The Valeyard and Rassilon both conspired to put this story out there because 1. Rassilon doesnt want anyone to be more powerful then him or to out live him so he put this story out there to make The Doctor and The Master kill each other and with them gone therell be no one out living him. Borusa wanted immortality and look what Rassilon did to him. Look what Rassilon did to Omega, he threw him under the bus. 2. with The Doctor dead the Valeyard can take her remaining regeneration.
Ce serait trop simple :/
Took a while but they finally Game of Thrones’d it.
I guess they just, kinda forgot about the time the 12th doctor gave the daleks his regeneration e energy, ergo the daleks now have infinite regeneration, but I guess the Daleks kida forgot that too.
Lungbarrow look it up none fan
@@lautaromedina9056 but in lungbarrow, the doctor was loomed out of the other. maybe it's same case with the timeless child.
Last jedi’d it*
@@cleanerben9636 Thats not how is works. The 10th Doctor used his regeneration energy to regenerate a hand but at the time he was still limited to 12 regenerations.
11th Doctor used his regeneration energy to heal River and he still had to be given a further regeneration cycle by the Time Lords.
I would've accepted this... if it added to the Doctor's character.
But it didn't.
Not yet, it doesn't. Something to explore in future series.
Give it some time. DW seems to take a long haul to plot developments like this. For example, Everything about the Time War was just vague references for years until they fully expended on it in later episodes.
@@plucas1 Really? Because the concept of the Time War pretty straightforward from the first time it was mentioned. It was the terrifying war so destructive that it forced the Doctor to commit genocide. It made the Doctor lonely and angry, both traits that influenced multiple stories.
Meanwhile, the Timeless Child arc, from the moment it was introduced, did nothing. It made her little confused, a little distant from her companions, but the whole thing had virtually no influence on the overall stories.
And if the only argument supporting Chibnall's decision is that "It'll be explained later," that's not a very good argument, is it?
Video Game Animation Study future series? :)
Hopefully they play this off as the master trying to get inside the doctor's head by using the most disturbing thing he could think of, I'm not too mad about the time lord mystery being reveiled but the doctor isn't meant to be someone that was born special, he became someone special aftyer thousands of years of loss, freindship, bravery and self sacrifice. This takes away the every man aspect of the doctor and that the doctor could have been anyone and that he could die at any momenet when his regenerations run out, but now he is the only one with an unlimited amount because he's the origin of the species. But the worst sin is that this devalues Peter Capaldi's scene where he wants to die and keeps going because he was given another chance due to increasing his regeneration rate and he can continue doing good in the universe.
I'm really hoping the Master was just lying about this. Because, if not, this just throws everything we've got in terms of backstory out the window. This was a dumb decision that needs to be fixed.
Would have been a great lie though, if he was the child. Maybe even better if there never was one. But I fear the writing on this show isn't that clever. Woah, way to give my self a compliment. Ey-oh!
@@voldlifilm I also think it would be better if the child never existed as well, because it completely changes the way regeneration works. If the entire thing was made up, that would be just fine by me.
It would have been more interesting if The Master had been the Timeless Child. It would be an opportunity for the writers to retcon all the Masters inability to fully die and stay dead. Or, in a pass toward Classic fans, to make somebody like Rani or Romana the Timeless Child.
@@fragment44studios92 and if the master was the child it would explain why he destroyed Gallifrey
hpj r hey bud you wanna come work at BBC with me? Lol
Alternate scene
Master: The Timeless Child... was me!
*dramatic music intensifies*
Doctor: But how? You once ran out of regenerations and died.
Master: The Time Lords could only gain 12 regenerations because they had to take away my infinite regenerations. But, now that I've destroyed Gallifrey and killed all the Time Lords, I've got that power back. I will be forever. I truly am The Master. *mediocre evil laughter intensifies*
*intensified dramatic music intensifies*
Doctor: So you..
Master: I will live forever and ever. I can do whatever I please because you... the only being able to stop me... one day you will die. And I.. I will live on. There is nothing you can do to stop me! *intensified evil laughter intensifies and echoes*
Doctor: Oh no.. oh no no no no
Master: No matter how many times you stop me, you will always have that itching feeling in your throat that it will never be enough. The Time Lords are gone and you can never get another chance. Don't even think I will give you any of my regeneration energy because I couldn't care for for word out of your mouth. You know what, I better start planning. Maybe I could become the prime minister again. Has anyone ever done that before? Doesn't matter. Maybe I could turn everyone into me again. I wonder if Donna Noble would still be immune to that. I wonder what would happen of she... remembered you (writer's note: I think this is getting a bit outlandish now)
Doctor: Oh no. Don't you dare. If you do that I will come for you and-
Master: And what? Kill me? Go on make that threat.
*intensified evil laughter continues to intensify*
This script is still at least 6x better than anything Chibnall has ever wrote.
@@AquaQuokka Thank you
I spend years on Doctor Who and this is what they do
series 12 is the one that broke me
Well, Moffat is retired since the 10th season.
Well, I guess now you go to the Doctor to fix you. ;)
“It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.”
The Doctor is still The Doctor, it's simple to understand.
That quote means nothing, in fact I have a better one for you.
“Perhaps there’s just some bloke, wandering around, putting everything right when it goes wrong”
This episode destroys this entire idea. It destroys the whole identity of the show.
@@santiagogarcia347 moffat was the beginning of the end anyway
Damn the doctor who fanfics are looking crazy these days
Yeah, Thankfully there not canon, I mean could you imagine if this was canon?🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@creeperreact8642 now that would just be silly!
Almost as crazy as this Star Wars fan film I watched 3 months ago.
@@Commander_Shepard. I watched that too. Indie special effects are catching up fast these days.
@@cleanerben9636 Yea like that Old Sonic Design from his Fan Movie that some Crazy Fan Made
I mean... He _has_ to be lying. The storyline doesn’t make sense if the Doctor truly is the Timeless Child.
Mephostopheles I hope to god that’s the case if not I don’t know how the show will survive
#Mephostopheles It actually makes sense. The Doctor has regenerated more times than anyone, and doesn't seem to be stopping.
When the Time Lords 'gave' her more regenerations at Trenzalore, they actually unlocked her power, giving her the ability to keep going.
And if you read the lore, the Time Lords had an organisation specifically built to stop her remembering this. Since they could time travel, I imagine memory erasing is easy.
@@ethanlauder4887 thats just wrong. Before the retcon, the master regenerated more times than the doctor- having been ressurected after running out of regenerations.
@@giladzxc17 but don't forget wasn't he put in front of a time ravel and saw things?
Think of episode from The Brain of Morbius staring Tom Baker where it was shown that The Doctor has had many more past regenerations that thought possible. The Timeless Child addresses this and the time lords genetic experiments. It also brings back the original mystery to the story that nobody really knows where The Doctor is from, and now not even The Doctor knows.
Compared to this, Moffat *needs* an oscar.
Moffat is basically Phillip Hinchcliff compared to the clown Chibnall
Emmy and Bafta. And he has some.
No, Moffat need an apology.
actually for this Moffat would receive Bafta for best writer for show.
Moffat was actually a great who writer. Just think about how he linked Russell’s writing into his.
The cleverness of the Silence.
The loop of Heaven Sent.
Although twice upon a time ruined it all.
I don't mesh with the idea of the Doctor being this "chosen one progenitor" type role. The show always prided itself on the Doctor being an regular bloke who does great things.
It still is about a regular person doing great things. Just now they have a mysterious past they were unaware of.
Mr Guff She isn’t very regular anymore. She’s basically the original Time Lord, which glorifies the Doctor as a god even more than Tennant and Smith combined. I get that giving her a mysterious past makes it more interesting, but what does it do for her and the show, character wise and lore-wise, besides adding more questions that won’t be answered?
@@SteelSpurs
Who knows, the same thing as having Gallifrey saved from the Time War to only have nothing done with that, the same thing as never finding out who destroyed the TARDIS in season 5, only to find out in a throw away line in season 7.
Now we have a whole other dimension to explore.
Reece Sweet before he stole the tardis he was a nobody on his planet and more of an outcast in his species.
So how long do we have to wait before we can retcon this?
I’d say at least until the end of jodies run
I want to be head of doctor who so I can recon that series 11 and 12 is not canon
After the show gets cancelled
Season 15 lol
As far as I'm concerned, "The Doctor Falls" is the final episode of Doctor Who. Everything past that has just been terrible fanfiction.
Such a nice fan-made video! They even used the real Doctor Who actors!
@@DjangoCaron ikr, just imagine if they actually made this cannon
I don't see any real Doctor Who actors, strange.
I really cannot tell if any of you are being sarcastic or not.
하지만 RTD 복귀해서 2023년 뉴 시즌 14부터 한다고 하니 다행..ㅠ
Welcome back, RTD! (2023, New Season 14 a.k.a "Real" Doctor Who new season 11)
Yeah it’s a nice little fanfiction although I’m glad it’s not real
This single handedly ruined doctor who for me, we find out the doctor is immortal basically which throws away so much of the character arc
Not exactly. The doctor has been killed permanently or was on the verge of death a few time. For example the Tenth Doctor was killed in Turn Left and in the comic Four Doctors an alternate Tenth Doctor called the Time Lord Victorious was killed permanently when he was shot by a slitheen. The eleventh Doctor was shown to have died permanently on Trenzalore . The Twelfth Doctor died permanently several times in Heaven Sent until he broke the wall of azbantium.
+ *Jonathan* No part of the episode suggests the Doctor is immortal.
Your problem is already solved in that very episode
@@Broccoli_32 no part of the episode suggests the doctor is still, or was, immortal
Dean Smith The Doctor has virtually limitless regenerations, which basically means...they’re immortal
No disrespect to anyone on the creative team, but in my personal opinion, this is an awful idea that completely disrespects and demystifies Doctor Who. I would strongly urge them to listen to the criticism and rectify this.
The doctor is now immortal ( a cheap, easy excuse to keep the show running as long as they like) which means, when someone is injured, if the doctor doesn't use regeneration energy to heal them, he/she is being lazy... Great writing 😂
Do research on the lore cause you clearly don't know it
With respect, I’ve been a fan of the show for years and I know the lore very well, and it’s my opinion that this plot point isn’t a good one. If you think differently, that’s absolutely fine; there’s no need to disrespect me.
@@AidanFarren-Hart dude sorry but you don't know the lore if you say,no disrespect but you don't
Lungbarrow
Cold fusion
The book of war
(Beginners guide for the lore)
I'm sorry, but wouldn't it have made more sense for the master to be the timeless child, that way it doesn't mess with the whole identity of the show and also gives the master a reason to be pissed off enough to destroy Gallifrey.
Yes. The only thing that doesn't explain is why the Master needed to defy death so many times, in so many different ways throughout the show's history. He wouldn't have needed to steal bodies, for example. I'm still hopeful that the Master reveals it was a lie he made up, but if not, I'm interested to see how the writers can manage to explain all of this.
MR. Sentient
hey guys I found chib’s replacement
Ian Miller
Because in this idea, he himself didn’t know he was the timeless child. He’d therefore have no reason to assume he could regenerate forever.
Some Guy but then that’s why the doctor has the idea of the limit of regenerations too. Exactly the same reason. They don’t know. I quite like the idea.
David Saunders
You only need stakes for the character you’re rooting for. If it’s a villain, then making them invincible or overpowered isn’t bad since they can’t be the underdog.
Wouldn't it make more sense for The Master to be the Timeless Child? At least that would explain his hatred of Galifrey and his reason to destroy it, as revenge against eons of being experimented on. If anything it would make the character more dangerous because it give The Master the freedom to do whatever they want because they know that they will always come back locking them and The Doctor in a perpetual struggle. This however, this does not work. Making the Doctor the child just destroys over 50 years of continuity. It eliminates some of the most pivotal scenes within the newer series like 10's fear of regeneration because secretly he knows it's running out. That heartwarming scene where the Time Lords give 11 a brand new cycle is undone because The Doctor apparently always had unlimited regeneration. So I must ask what was the point to all of this, just to eliminate the 13 regeneration rule? Again 11 was given a brand new cycle but there was no set number, really if they don't feel like it the whole thing about regeneration limits never has to be revisited again. So really I ask what was the point to this? Just to make the character "the special" a trope that is worn out and old that it's practically satire now. Funny isn't it wasn't the Cybermen, it wasn't the Daleks, wasn't even River Song. It was the show runner that killed The Doctor
That's genius, and the master is lying about to the doctor to force the doctor to search for what they think is the truth but the master is piggy backing to see their home dimension or whatever
Well... he can still be... nothing is set in stone, considering the facts.
Wait, but that makes his/her sacrifice in The Doctor Falls meaningless, right?
I don't think it would work anyways, the master changed bodies with another timelord in the original series to escape death.
No, the Master is evil. He destroy half of the universe in Logopolis.
11th Doctor: _I'm out of a regenerations._
13th Doctor: I've always had like infinity so its cool.
This is "The Last Jedi" of the Doctor Who franchise
Well said
The Last Jedi wasn’t even that bad or at least compared to this. No, this is more like the last two Terminator movies because of how badly they retcon their respective franchises and treat their leads.
This is shockingly true, but also in the positives of TLJ, like it has cool lore and backstory, but as a film/episode it’s terrible. The origin of regeneration is actually decent. But the doctor being the child, really?
Bruh, this is easily TROS. Random lore retcons being explained to you by characters just because, and a weird need to make a character important by making their history/lineage special instead of the message of TLJ which was that you are special because of your decisions, and not because of your past.
Kris More like “The Rise of Skywalker” of Doctor Who!
So those 3 Time Lords they showed, we’re supposed to presume they’re Rassilon, Omega, & The Other?
according to the Master's Narration that was after the invention of Time Travel.
So, Omega wouldn't be there, as he gets lost in the antimatter world after helping create tardises and time travel.
@@pheebeetwo I always thought that the Gallifreyan Government imprisoned Omega in that Anti-matter Universe because from what I saw of him in "The Three Doctors", he REALLY didn't like being there. Just another lie told by those in power on Gallifrey.
Tectave is possibly the Other?
@@DoctorWhoKage
Not government, Rassilon himself. Only one who could rival his power was Omega, and oops, he is not forever stuck in anti matter world.
@@jeckjeck3119 no he's not forever stuck because he's DEAD! Killed by the 2nd and 3rd incarnations of The Doctor.
I could live with this change if timeless child was anyone but the doctor
I’d rather Craig from the loger be the timeless child
It would been great if it was the master instead
I don't want the Timeless Child to be any established character-
Just introduce a whole new character
Phovon I do like the timeless child as a concept but why does it have to be the doctor that’s ridiculous.
@@nicholascoleman912 or Harriet Jones
Oh yeah, sure. Throw 50+years out the window.
Except, what you saw so far was a trick played by none other than Houdini himself. Did they actually throw 50+ years out the window? Or is 50+ years still inside the house? It's a good question isn't it? The thing is, you assumed the same as the Master - both saw that 50+ years guy run to the window, but the facts never pointed to that.
But what if you and the Master were right? What if the 50+ years guy fell down the window because of this revelation? Did it actually change the outcome? Did he die or pull out a Sherlock? Isn't the First Doctor still the first bearer of the Promise, even if he had previous incarnations? Did that change the learning curve he had to go through or his humble beginnings? Was the 7th Doctor being rhetorical when he said he wasn't just another Time Lord? Did that really change regeneration or the lore on Time Lord society and the Dark Times? Did that not explain why River was always a Time Lord? The truth is: it really doesn't change anything (well, sort of, I'm still waiting for those Morbius 'Doctors' to appear in my nightmares). Personally, I not only think the 50+ years guy was in the room the whole time, but he was might've been Sherlock in disguise...
@@ReversedPolarity just shut up, it does throw nearly 60 years of story away and when you have to write a fucking novel lol you did to come up with a possible reason it might not be bad, then it’s bad. Stop defending this shit. At least Hartnell isn’t alive to see his legacy shat on by bad writing
@@ReversedPolarity Lmao this is so funny to me that you go ass backwards with your mental gymnastics to defend this crap - going all out with these allegories and questions. Give it a rest man. It’s time to call a spade a spade.
@@chrisdawson1776 And it's funny to me that you see but don't observe enough. I'm not defending anything if you read my comment, I'm merely providing some perspective. Is there any problem with that? If there is, then give your attitude a rest man, we're all fans here.
@@McDonald_Mando Huh, I can't believe I missed this joyful party of comments, but hey I finally made it. So, what threw nearly 60 years of story away? As far as I can see, we know absolutely nothing, only from third parties who have proven to lie in the past about their own prophecies.
And here's the funny thing to me: you said Hartnell's legacy was affected, but where's your evidence? I'm intrigued.
Oh so the time lords didn’t give the eleventh doctor more regenerations because of anything Clara did, they did it in a desperate attempt to keep up the secret.
Oh, yeah that makes a lot of sense.
veggieguy23 Tbh that’s much better than simply allowing someone to break the rules of regeneration simply because a mere human asked for it.
I think so, too. At first I thought they might found a way to limit the Doctor´s regeneration after they manipulated her memories but it would make more sense if they simply fooled the Doctor by giving the 11th Doctor regeneration energy even so he could have done it by himself. Maybe that´s even why the regeneration of the 11th Doctor was so much bigger because of the additional energy.
also means the spare regeneration energy 11 used in angels take manhattan to heal river makes more sense. (also his fake regen in the impossible astronaut ? but that was a teselecta so maybe not real anyway idk ?)
And River sacrificed her regenerations for nothing and the Doctor can now basically just finger blast regeneration energy at Daleks like in Eleventh's final episode so they're no longer a threat.
I liked how the doctor earned his importance through kindness and through helping those in need, not through just being what he is - this needs to be retconned it would have been so cool if the master was the timeless child.
Yeah, I still wouldn't have liked it, but it would have made slightly more sense for the Master to be the timeless child. The idea is absolute rubbish either way, but at least it wouldn't have destroyed the whole series like that.
It would also make more sense for him to destroy Gallifrey if he was TTC instead of the Doctor. Wouldn’t he just kill the Time Lords in power rather than the whole planet when he found out about the Doctor?
it would also kinda make sense considering all the bullshit and unconventional ways the master has managed to come back without the use of regeneration
Maybe he is and this is a lie, and the past Doctor is a past Master going along with the lie. It would explain better why he got angry enough to destroy Gallifrey if he were the one tortured by the Timelords.
Technically, nothing about the revelations of this episode say the Doctor is the Timeless Child. Check the episode again and you'll see what I'm saying. We all just assumed that to be the case.
And what if the Doctor was naturally gifted? Would it really change what you know? The Doctor still had to work to become who he/she is, that's why Hartnell is the first bearer of the Promise. That learning curve is still there and comes from a humble beginning. Whoever he 'might' have been before is still not the Doctor, maybe someone who needed to become a Doctor. We're also pretty sure Hartnell wasn't the one who created the Promise, especially when you consider the 50th.
And that my friend, this is how you destroy 57 years of history lore...
Wow, totally not an overused damn boring comment to look at.
Photon Studios how is a comment boring? Just because you’re angry that we saw through this shit series you completely disregard the GENUINE criticism of how they ruined this great show
@@theintelligenceagency3638 Doesn't the fact that it's been used so many times tell you something. So many poeple realise this is the case. However many times that comment is used doesn't change how true it is, it enforces it.
@@theintelligenceagency3638 in hindsight anything can be stated as being used too often that's what happens when people are feeling the same way. by focussing on the fact that it's a boring comments rather than the actual substance makes me believe that you don't actually have an argument against what he is saying
@@theintelligenceagency3638 liking ur own comment good one dude
It should be the Master who is the Timeless Child and not The Doctor
Omg ikr I said that! It would explain why he killed them all. It would also be why he's mad at the doctor, he's mad that the only reason the doctor is living is because of him.
*exterminates in 'the master got mad because he stared into the time vortex when he was just eight-years-old fulling him with madness'*
Well the title is the "timeless children", he could be one of these children along with the Doctor
Origin story, when the master looked into the heart of the vortex thing hat drove him mad, writing could have been much more original that what was used.
Yeah, at least use that for his origin story, not fuck with an already established one who happens to be the main character of the whole show
This is like saying Superman isn't from Krypton. It's lazy stupid and undermines decades of storytelling for a cheap gasp. They don't even do anything with it the doctor basically said it won't affect me in any way, I am so disappointed in chibnall's writing.
Wow brilliant way of putting it! This is actually how it feels!
I would not be surprised if the series gets better. A future writer will play this off as a trick from the master in the future to make the doctor reckless.
Katherine Pierce Well that’s provided the series doesn’t get canceled due to low ratings.
ObiWan Kenobi I’d disagree. My family continued to watch the CW shows when I quit. When they said they got good again I started watching again. I mean they where wrong and the shows where still bad, but I did tune back in briefly.
I really hope that someone retcons this next season, or I don't think I could be able to keep watching.
The Time War: A massive, universe-shaking event in where the Daleks (among other things) try to destroy Gallifrey
Chibnall's Master: Feeling cute, might destroy Gallifrey later.
🤔
@QUALITY KHANTENT I don't care about the Master's appearance. I care about the character. It's why I loved the Missy incarnation, because it was arguably the deepest characterization we've gotten for the Master.
Chibnall's is a little rage monster that *might* have been justified if he were the Timeless Child, rage founded on discovering he was used and experimented on. Instead, he's just suddenly evil again, with unsupported goals that swing on whims, and apparently more powerful than the entire Dalek fleet.
@@Soulindex Couldn't agree more mate
must be two gallifrey.
I’d argue that being genetically related to your arch nemesis would be pretty infuriating.
QUALITY KHANTENT Star Trek was always diverse and the creator was always pushing a “humanity”...
The Master reveals... that there was never any dramatic tension in the show at all because the Doctor was always invincible, apparently. The Valeyard, who lived in the matrix for a while, must have missed this while he was there too because this endless regeneration thing makes his attempts on stealing the Doctor's "remaining" lives less of a "let me kill you so I can exist," into more of a "can I borrow five dollars so I can buy a sandwich."
I don't remember the classic episode off-hand, but someone made the mistake of showing a bunch more lives that the actors to that point because they got the lore wrong. I guess Chibnall wanted to make that canon.
Remember when "half human on my mother's side" was the biggest canon break in the series? And I actually thought that one had merit. This one feels more like an excuse to not have to explain why more than 13 actors played the Doctor without having to restart the counter every 12 actors.
The last part of your statement made me laugh.
@@ianmiller6040 It made me laugh too. This plot "development" is truly laughable.
this doesnt imply invincibility at all.
@@AGO339 Regenerating countless times/being the only being that can "naturally" regenerate doesn't imply invincibility to you? Why should dying mid regeneration be a thing for the timeless child? Why should the Doctor care about losing any particular incarnation at this point? It's not like there's a finite number of lives anymore.
In my opinion, I personally think the Doctor isn't the Timeless Child. Given the fact that the Master is a trickster and an expert at lying, I think history of the Timeless Child in the Matrix is a false memory created by Master. If that's wrong, if Doctor really is the Timeless Child, then I think somehow the Time Lords managed to limited his/her Regeneration cycle into twelve, just like how they did.
And they removed the "lock" when the Time Lords "gave him a new cycle"
If The Doctor is indeed the Timeless Child, nothing has changed that much.
“It's not who I am underneath, but what I do that defines me.”
@@wolfytennobr8485 Precisely. In that case, why make the Doctor the Timeless Child? What's the point? What does it add? It's like Avengers Endgame saying at the last minute "oh, and Captain America was the son of a great wizard and heir to a great dynasty". It's unnecessary aggrandisement.
And the Time Lords wiped out the Doctor's memory of being the Timeless Child. reverted him into a child being the first doctor and sent him back to Galifrey before the events of the show even began, they also took the ability to have unlimited regenerations from the Doctor and limited them to 12.
As with any question, it spawns more questions then answers. Here are the questions I still have witch I hope they answer in the future.
Why was she left in our universe?
Who and what civilisation did she come from?
Why was she abandoned?
Where did that tear in reality come from?
They will probably never answer those questions. I think this was just a plot device to bring back the "who" element.
M view good point. One can still dream though
All more things to explore for future writers :-)
Lachlan Harrison that’s the whole point. It’s still Doctor Who? We don’t know where the Doctor came from or who she is. It could very well be she was sent back in time to kickstart the genesis of the Timelords.....it could be shes the last of her species and was sent through the barrier. Who knows??
Why did the Ruth doctor have the tardis when it was supposedly stolen by William hartnell
I hope Capaldi wokes up next season and this was all just a dream.
Well it won't so deal with it.
@@jasondavidson9491 Oh, believe me, i already did.
😂😂😂
It’s gonna be dream within a dream within the matrix.
The Master falsely led information into the Doctor, the Timeless Child reincarnated into the Other , the Other became Ruth Doctor , Ruth Doctor reincarnated into First Doctor.
My theory.
@@NativS2002 Who the hell is the Other?
The Timeless Child: *exists*
Tecteun: it's free immortality
Ah finally, some M E M E S
This makes the Doctor the infinite boomer
The next showrunner will more than likely go back and undo this. Either the Master is lying or Rassilon tempered with the Matrix or maybe both or there's just loads of different ways to rectify this.
I feel like I owe Steven Moffat an apology now....
It's still funny that some people are fine with regeneration being so random that it can make a person a zombie or two-headed but are shocked that it can change someone's gender or race
This deeply angers me
Why?
@@mrguff9304 Lol, what do you mean "why"? It killed Doctor Who.
@@SuperHitman55
Clearly it didn't, don't be daft.
@@mrguff9304 Clearly it did.
@@thundervoid420
Hardly.
This episode ruined what the doctor is for me and most people. He/she is meant to just be a mysterious rogue time lord who wants to do the right thing whilst living with their own demons.
Yet this reveal just turned the friendly neighbourhood (universehood) Doctor into some chosen one
Unbelievable
Unacceptable
Me too bro. I am sooo pissed
@@elliotperkins3344 we have LOST the show now to please chibbs PC lot.
not watching season 13.never.
@@alexhjc8 Its not dr who anyway
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
Dent to Doctor Who Writters.
You can't even spell "writers" properly. Don't quit your day job, dumbass.
This right here fellas. This is the moment doctor who fans accepted the show has gone.
I accepted when they announced jodie as the doctor but yes
The show is not gone, it just changed, like it always does. It's the whole point of Doctor Who. Just deal with it !!! -_-
This was the original story line for 7th Doctor. They never finished it before it was cancelled. It's a weird story line though. It ruins so much cannon man's has plot holes everywhere.
@@alexandralugo1743 It was scrapped because the writers then knew it was a bad idea...
Writers now think it's a great one..
@@aj-dr9853 Yeah it changed to WORSE. Deal with it.
So the doctor isn't anymore that one clever time lord that decided to run away
So the all regeneration cycle that 11 needed doesn't makes sence anymore
Wasn't there an other explaination for the master to destroy gallifrey ?
I mean i've never seen so much no carring about other writers
Only thing I can say is maybe Matt Smith's doctor only thought his regeneration cycle was coming to an end but it really wasn't and he only was given the regeneration energy because Clara begged throught that crack.... again I dont like any of this but it is the best answer I can give... just pure ignorance is all I've got
The Timelords were clever enough to be able to manufacture how many times others could regenerate, and at one point they must've reverted The Doctor back to a child and restricted it back to 12 regenerations.
I really like it, it makes the Doctor even more mysterious and special, and just expands more ideas for future writers to explore. It helps feed the eccentricity of the Doctor since William Hartnell.
@@VideoGameAnimationStudy I think there is no need for a unique child kind back story to make the doctor special, the doctor is special because he became special by himself
That's what I loved about the character he was just that one guy who was a pain in the ass for the timelords and became a legend for his actions
Now he is THE ONE since the beginning so I don't really care anymore
(Matrix ? The one ? OMG)
The timeless child could have been another timelord and that would be cool
@@obiwankenobi687 my bad for 11 but it says more about the uselessness (sorry bad english) of this backstory for the doctor who was a already a unique timelors. What i mean is that this is more and more explaination for something that doesn't need it. Now the next writers can do anything "oh and gallifrey was in the same solar system than earth so that's why timelords and human looks the same" "oh and Rasillon is in FACT the master but in the future"
the timeless child could have been another new character and that would be cool
@@robertwilson1355 It could be the Time Lords altered The Doctor's DNA to only regenerate 12 times when they wiped her memories of past incarnations to help hide her origins from history. When they "granted" a new line of regenerations, they actually removed the genetic limits on regeneration meaning she is no longer limited to twelve.
So why does she have two hearts? Being a primordial being from an unknown rheum, you wouldn’t think her physiology would be that of a Gallifreyan. Or maybe the two hearts comes with the Timelord mutation, like, you become a Timelord, you grow an extra heart
Exactly, it doesn't make any sense
bradley Spiteri ok let them explain then they can’t mention everything in one finale
It was actually suggested in a first doctor book that the second heart actually comes in with the first regeneration, which would make sense of the timeless child having two hearts as they have already regenerated.
Endrit Haziri right... I guarantee you they’ll just move on from this immediately, and never mention it again
thing is they spliced her DNA into them so it's more likely that the Galiifreyan's started to take on characteristics of whatever species the Doctor is as the generations grew
is a sense the Doctor is the only TRUE timelord and the Gallifreyan's used technology to turn themselves into the same/similar species
Next season: Master lied, and had a believable reason to do so
PLEASE
🤣🤣
lol, nice fanfic
Because the writers hadn't thought that a few years later someone was gonna come along and make all this up
Exactly
Because all of the doctors she saw were the one's the doctor remembers
Because they are not in the Matrix anymore???
Because Chibnail is a lazy ass and didn;t bothered to normally integrate origin into universe.
Can you ruin Doctor Who more?
Chris: Yes.
Moffat already did that and then some.
@@charliedavidarnott1537he's miles better than this dross
some guy Correct
@@charliedavidarnott1537
I think most people who watch it today started with RTD, unaware that it's a family show that's not really meant to be continually watched.
It's designed for kids who grow older and then stop watching.
Which is why there's a soft restart with each Doctor, companion and showrunner. I don't think they ever intend for people to think of it _quite_ so seriously.
@@charliedavidarnott1537 RTD did that too
"You are the timeless child"
Mega cliché, saw that from a mile off.
Almost got a headache from rolling my eyes back so far.
@XAndroid1 Still predictable.
But the term, "YOU are *insert crazy thing here*" is a cliched statement in storytelling.
I'm sure the 8-13 year olds this show is mostly aimed for haven't experienced this kind of storytelling before, so it's good for them, y'know, who it's aimed for.
@@mrguff9304 Nah, it's aimed at easily-offended snowflake millennials.
@@mrguff9304 The 8- 13 year olds left. 3.78 million overnights and no S12 episode cracked the 7 million mark Unless you work for the BBC and Piers Wenger better tell em to wake up cause all the PR didn't help. No one wants to be preached.
The show is aimed at 8-13 year olds who, y'know, don't stay that age forever. New 8-13 year olds hop on to enjoy it.
That's how the show has always worked.
Gee, the 13 year olds who watched Series 1 will be....23 now.
I hadn't been concerned about infinite regenerations so much as the Master's ability to singlehandedly destroy the Citadel and defeat the rest of the Time Lords seemingly without raising a sweat, when the combined might of all the Daleks couldn't do it. Why is nobody outraged about *that*?
We were. There's just so much to be outraged about.
I don't really have a problem with it. The Time Lords have repeatedly been shown to be a powerful but decadent race in decline. The Doctor has outsmarted them a few times (notably in _Hell Bent_ where he runs circles around all of them). I don't have any problem believing the Master could do the same - and to much more malevolent ends.
The Doctor and The Master are much more inventive and flexible thinkers than other Time Lords. I don't need to see how the Master destroys them (like the Time War it's one of those things that should probably never appear on screen), but I totally believe he could.
And let's not forget that this completely renders the 50th anniversary special moot. Moffat celebrated the survival of Gallifrey and Chibnall unceremonially just flushed it down the toilet again.
The Master is a genius so it was probably some convoluted plan that the writers didn’t want to do on screen
Dear Chris Chibnall, you win! You brought out the strong emotions of the fan base.... but in the wrongest of ways. However, you can correct all this with series 13. Let’s face it, your reputation as a writer and show runner has been ruined. The ratings and critical reception of the show has tanked under your leadership. But I urge you, before you get forced out of your job, to PLEASE correct the wrongs you’ve done! As the Doctor would say “Time and be rewritten!” That can be most evident with what you do next with your (hopefully) final series.
not one line, don't they dare
@phantomciphyy Thank you Lord!!!
The ratings have been dropping for years, and Chibnall's era has been critically acclaimed. It's a great twist.
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 critically acclaimed?? By who?
@@43110clyde Critics.
I hope Chris Chibnall reads this comment section and actually takes on-board the valid criticism of this "plot twist".
William Hartnell would be ashamed.
I'd doubt it. The BBC don't need to worry about viewer numbers as we're forced to pay for this with the TV license. Any other show in this state would have been cancelled by now.
Didn't expect to see you here Cavan lmao
When William Hartnell was the Doctor, the words ''Time Lord'' or ''Gallifrey'' were not even in the show yet. At the time, the writers saw the Doctor as a human from the future who made the TARDIS by himself.
@@aj-dr9853......aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnddddd?
@@cleanerben9636 AND that proves that Doctor Who always change. It's the whole point of the show. William Hartnell wouldn't be ashamed. He would be confused about how many times the story changed and about how many times the fans thought ''Doctor Who was ruined'' (it's really not the first time this sentence is said in 57 years)
The Doctor: So were any of my other lives ginger.
The Master (sighs heavily): No, they weren't ginger.
The Doctor: Darn it. Why, why, why?!
The Master: Look, why don't you let it go. I wanted violet eyes, but I'm never getting them.
The Doctor: You know why, you know exactly why.
Even though Brendan wasn't one of his actual lives but just a illusion made up by his adopted mother/the Matrix, Brendan was in fact ginger! So he's got that one atleast.
AdomkXG wait? Brendon didn’t happen? What were the flashbacks? Why did the Docs adopted mother create an illusion? I’m about to rewatch the episode...
Edit: this is such an episode that needs rewatching before judging. Just rewatched, completely understand and that Tecteon put a filter over the event that really happened so if the Doctor remembered the Timeless Child events, she’d see the Brendon events literally sitting over the top of the real events so know one would find it suspicious. Brendon surviving the fall was really the Girl regenerating.
Mostly part of them are also Ginger.
Master: Technically your last one was a ginger. You just were so old the hair had gone white.
Doctor: No... that's not true! That's impossible!
apparently you have to be born special to be special.
This completely destroys galifrey's legacy from 10th and 11th doctors, they explained in both how time lords get their regeneration then this just changes that even though they already had an established reason (The Untempered Schism)
Not just Gallifrey, the Time Lords, and Doctors Ten and Eleven... but _everything!_
Rivers’s time lord dna would make no sense under this retcon, the only reason she could regenerate even as a human was because she was half born in the tardis and half not (flesh, long story) and was exposed to the time vortex.
Almost like this show contradicts and retcons itself constantly. Just enjoy the ride
pretty much the uncontested worst retcon for a show
Doctor Who now needs the “it was all a dream” treatment from Dallas. Just cut to the Twelfth Doctor about to regenerate in Twice Upon A Time, then pass off Seasons 11 and 12 as a “pre-regeneration fever dream”, and then pick up with the show from there with Capaldi regenerating into a new (the “real”) Thirteenth Doctor.
Honestly I agree. Currently we need a reboot from the last sustainable model
I don’t think we need throw away 13. Just reveal this whole timeless child thing as an elaborate prank by the Master, Rani and/or Rassilon and may be bring in a new writer.
the only thing i'd miss by retconning these last two seasons is the return of Captain Jack. i've missed him
BadCommenter I agree with you 100%
I wouldn't even mind getting her again just not this story
Wow, 12 had some really weird fever dreams as he died on Mondas. Good thing none of this actually happened.
Rejoice, this nightmare will end soon.