In my family growing up, we were a mix of exmo’s and nevermo’s. My brother converted to the church at age 18 and he tried so hard to convert us all. One night he got so frustrated that he raised his voice and proclaimed that he had seen Jesus Christ in the flesh. You could have heard a pin drop as we all glanced at each other knowing we were all thinking the same thing - which was “this guy is NUTS!”
@@matthewharris7151 Thank you for "researching THE HELL out of this!" It's THE HELL IN. THIS. is what we have to work out for ourselves. But when it is essentially INCONCEIVABLE and so cleverly hidden in the nebulous, the non-committal, the unspeakable - when one KNOWS so many "SOMETHINGS" that have the sour pitch and scraping edge of an untuned piano - only SOMEONE who can discover, recognize, and challenge the incongruities that people cannot really name while their entrails churn constantly like a nest of leviathans snagged between the pillars of Hercules - only here have we a hope of untangling our minds and relieving our IBS. Thank 🐦you.
John, I love what you do to bring clarity to so many questions. I’ve always enjoyed supporting your work. Times have been hard, and it makes me sad that I can’t donate at the moment. I say this because I hope that when things improve, I can contribute again-not just for myself, but for everyone who deeply enjoys your episodes, especially series like this one. I hope anyone that is thinking about donate considers to.
Again, this series is a balm to my soul for showing the true humanity and divinity contained in these people. I appreciate the academic perspective that pushes away cynical polemics and hagiography. Thank you
I started reading Second Class Saints at the library but then decided to head over to Barnes and Noble to purchase the book. This book is too good and too important to read it for free.
Agreed! I think the core of the issue is the deception perpetrated by the highest and founding leaders. For many, this religion didn’t serve our interests.
If the ‘used to’ teach racism but now ‘does better’ that is also saying the church ‘used to’ believe it is led by prophets who meet with God & know his thoughts (which are eternal) but now believes in ‘oops never mind’ as their theology. Ridiculous.
@@matthewharris7151 Yes it’s quite delayed. I’ve pre-ordered through Amazon in June, delivery should have been in October, now it’s saying it will be delivered between 27December and 10April 2025! On a positive note, the Kindle edition is now available! So I also got the soft copy! 😀
I don’t think I have ever been angrier in a podcast. The feelings of betrayal I feel over Mcconkie and Packer… their words led to years of shame and hurt and to know how much they lied…. It’s atrocious and there should be penalties to pay when religious leaders knowingly lie. When those lies lead to ungrounded faith that then leads members like me to base their life choices and live through pain bc of that path. It makes me so sad as I grieve my life and all I lost.
I can relate to your feelings. For me it’s been 45 years. I was a teenager when I joined the church. I lost everything. My family disowned me. I lost my jobs, my friends. Just now trying to repair my relationship with my living siblings. My parents are dead so I’m not able to apologize for the hurt I caused. Trying to reconcile my losses. But take heart. We have to look forward and not backwards. You are still young. There is still time.
As leaders of the church cannot be honest and say they are human because they are prophets of GOD. Thats how they gain complete compliance and expect a member to Never question their authority. I fell for that crap!!!!!
I remember the public humiliation incident that happened to George Pace. McConkie giving a last talk bearing testimony of JC does not redeem what he did.
So glad you mentioned George Pace ... I was at BYU then and Pace was one of my fav teachers, greatly loved by many students, and I still remember how upset I was when McConkie called him out for something totally ridiculous... just for saying Jesus is our brother or something like that!
I have a new name for McConkie, it is MCdonkey because he is a jackass for the doctrine he wrote in his book. I had a girlfriend that was very catholic but she finally agreed to attend church with me. Some idiot in Sacrament meeting got up and quoted McConkie in his Mormon doctrine where he talks about the Catholic church being the great and abominable. Needless to say that was the end of her interest in the church. She is a lawyer so she is very educated and this went over like a lead balloon.
I had a missionary companion who couldn’t wait for the resurrection … because then his skin would turn white (This was in 1998). I always felt sorry that he believed that.
People with any logical thinking should know Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which is in the Middle East. I have served (military) in the Middle East and most, if not all middle eastern are certainly darker than white people. So for a church wanting to be more like Jesus, the prejudice thinking is disgraceful and disgusting. I am not saying we need to strive to be dark. I’m just saying the leaders who determined the followers should strive to be white is an utterly pea brained. They obviously did know what they were talking about. We should strive to be like Jesus in the way we treat others and how we conduct our lives. One skin type is not better than any other.
Absolutely. I look at how the 4 Gospels were written 30-80 years after Jesus died, the Mormon first vision was first written 12 years after it supposedly happened, and then so many examples of church leaders today fabricating stories (Like Paul Dunn acknowledging his fictitious stories and people like Steve Young saying that Dunn’s stories were central to his own testimony), and the only reasonable conclusion is it’s all fabricated storytelling!
I appreciate what you began covering starting at 2:18:40. I haven't heard this covered before but I have personal experiences with it. I overheard George Pace and a relative of mine talk about how Spencer Kimball frequently had issues with McConkie and that he was kept around because of members drawn to him by his eccentric and bold speaking. I also personally know the family of one of McConkie's daughters. There are some shameful stories I have witnessed with them. I wil leave it at that.
Месяц назад+20
The amount of paternalism I witnessed in the Philippines was shocking. I sat in trainings where surgeons, business owners, politicians, etc. were spoken to like they were kindergarteners by representatives from Salt Lake. And it wasn’t a language issue: everyone in the room spoke fluent English. It was racism/nationalist superiority, whatever you want to call it. Not to mention the expectation that anytime one of the 15 came, a cultural celebration was expected, involving traditional costumes that needed to be made for each event and travel expenses and time for dozens and dozens of teenagers to travel to practices. But, hey, the SLC 15 saw it as “their culture” to welcome them in this way. Umm… no. It was an expectation they were struggling to live up to. Uchtdorf told the local leaders not to do it for him, and I hoped the rest would follow suit. Nope.
I love this series! Thank you John for having a respectful back and forth with Dr Harris around points that sound a little too rosy. I can tell Dr Harris is a believer (or just member) and I appreciate hearing from him although I don’t always align with his take-away points. Edit: Matt Harris, I do not hear the statement regarding ‘keeping the church white’ as an infrastructure issue. That feels way too apologetic and is whitewashing the racism. Heavily disagree with you on that point.
I found a family members letter home from his mission during the ban lifting that says: if President Kimball really lifted the ban like they said he did then I’m leaving the church! They never did leave the church, but I always thought that was interesting
"We cannot have an apostolic Gospel which remains foundational and timeless at the point we choose and then remove it at any point of inconvenience to us." - Alistair Begg [Church of Jesus Christ] "Principles and Patterns of Submission" (to civil authorities) Part One
Man, what an incredible episode! I have about 45 minutes left but do you mention the interview with Legrand Richards? He seemed to tell a very honest version of the story, which also completely contradicts the embellished versions from McConkie and Packer.
John isn’t a historian, and the historian is trying to tell him the IRS was not a primary motive of lifting the ban. But John doesn’t seem to really like that answer. And for the record, I’m ex Mormon.
I love this series, I I’m loving the work Dr Harris does in this book. I agree with John that the danger of losing tax status maybe played a bigger role than the records show. Not a major role but a bigger role.
I am actually extremely glad John is standing up about this subject. Matt's work is great, but he does seem to have some biases. John is sharing the point of view of other important historians. And just because Matt did not find documented evidence of concerns about losing the tax exempt status, doesn't mean it is a far fetched idea. The church is so concerned about the inflow of money that they acted ILLEGALLY BY CREATING FALSE COMPANIES TO DECEIVE MEMBERS about their net worth and ensure the inflow of tithes. 🤷🏻♂️
@@MGom1963 You might be right--but we need evidence to make this claim. Thanks for your kind words. I'm pleased that you're enjoying the series and my book.
@@coldwar45 Just for the record I'm okay with folks pushing back on my claims. That's what we call the "marketplace of ideas"--let the truth emerge through debate and discussion.
This whole thing reminds me of a poster from the 1960's.....remember the man on the beach rushing to catch up with a group of people, saying "I must hurry, for i am their leader". LDS leaders are trying to get away from "white and delightsome"? I don't see it.....the church....you know " the One True chuch", "the only church accepted by GOD" was in error? The church with a prophet? Or God just changed his mind? What else will God change to be in concert with the social changes of his "followers "? Are we to believe anything is changeable....dependent on social changeable norms....and so God will bend to keep followers? Wow...a new mental picture of God.
Incredibly interesting. Like John, I can't help but be upset when I hear the truth about what goes on behind the scenes. TBMs see the leaders as nearly perfect, and in regular communication with Jesus. They are nothing but men, and not necessarily good men, at that.
Love Matt content and academic integrity. I do disagree with him on one point (and agree with John) - losing tax exempt status for sure played a major contributing role and I base that on 2 main points: 1) LDS leadership has government ‘inside’ men that are loyal to the church above all else (as per their temple oaths). The leaders knew this legal change was close at hand. 2) From an optics perspective, changing the ban AFTER they lost their ability to avoid taxes would look HORRIBLE and paint them as reactive and not prophetic. For sure many other reasons but the IRS changes for sure played a major role.
Very interesting interview! I remember it was my birthday when the revelation was announced in 1978, I went upstairs to tell my mom and she was blown away -- she was a BYU alum and member of the Choir. In 1985 I was called to the West Indies Mission side by side with Dan Rascon and 4 others. Arriving in Barbados in 1985 we were met by the Mission President, Ken Zabriskie whom just moved the Mission HQ from Fort Lauterdale FL to Barbados. I really enjoyed that trail-blazing mission down there for the next 2 years!
I am interested in the faith and loyalty to the church of black members that joined and stayed in the church even when they could not have the priesthood. How they felt, what spiritual impressions they had, why they stayed, how were there interactions with the brethren etc? I m sure there is deep spirituality and revelation associated with them staying in the church and working through the process.
Black Latter-day Saints I've asked about this basically said they were already used to living in communities and countries where a history of racist beliefs and segregation and ways they continued was already so normal for them to be dealing with it wasn't shocking to encounter more of the same at Church. They basically decided they were getting what they needed from the Church and were waiting for the racists to grow up and learn a thing or two like in all the other areas of their life. When racism is endemic it doesn't stand out as additionally surprising in Mormonism in the way those of us who expect better are horrified by it. This really helped me make sense of what seems impossible.
@@mormoncivilwar6189thanks for your feedback. I tend to think that there must have been something spiritual to get them to make that change… to leave their previous faith or culture and to accept the church of Jesus Christ via baptism even considering the circumstances of the church at that time…. And then to stay and wait faithfully … even share their experiences throughout and work with the Brethren … there must have been something spiritually there that sustained them. I think that would be an additional perspective that is also worth exploring. There are many faith promoting stories also worth sharing with this trying topic.
Thank you John for standing up about the IRS topic. Matt's work is great, but he does seem to have some biases. And just because Matt did not find documented evidence of concerns about losing the tax exempt status, doesn't mean it is a far fetched idea. The church is so concerned about the inflow of money that they acted ILLEGALLY BY CREATING FALSE COMPANIES TO DECEIVE MEMBERS about their net worth and ensure the inflow of tithes. Matt is a grown up. He should be able to take feedback. And just because he is a historian doesn't mean he is free of biases.
Of course, I have biases--we all do. But as a scholar I follow the evidence--no more, no less. As I point out in my book at great length, and as I note on the podcast, the IRS is a big shadow looming over the church. There's no question about that. The Carter administration had been cracking down on religious institutions that held discriminatory theologies and the Brethren were well aware of this. Again, I talk about this at great length in my book. But to say that it was the "prime factor" (as some folks have said on the internet) for lifting the ban is not accurate. I researched this topic thoroughly and broadly and there is no evidence that the IRS prompted SWK to lift the ban in 1978. Like I argue in my book, SWK was going to lift the ban the moment he became the president because it collided with his globalist vision, and to suggest that the IRS is what motivated him when he wanted to do it all along is simply remiss. But the give-and-take that John and I had on the IRS during the podcast is a good one, and I welcome it. Scholars should always be challenged.
@@matthewharris7151I came here to say what Matt says only with far less eloquence😂. Thank you Matt, for your research and for sharing history in a way that can be backed up without assumptions.
@matthewharris7151 well Mr Harris. I have biases too. And you just confirmed I was right all along about two in this episode. But seriously, thank you for your great work.
@@matthewharris7151 Well, the $$$$$ IS the bottom line for "the church", AS THE CHURCH HAS BOLDLY WITNESSED AGAINST ITSELF - albeit cunningly, indeed, but boldly, defiantly, and with an increasing aggression that ought to warrant AIR-RAID signals in minds with an IQ of 60. THE WITHHOLDING OF such information as they know would cause people to leave skid-marks at their departure says everything that needs saying. Even now, as people keep asking about the affiliation/ association of the production of "The Chosen" with ANYONE or ANYTHING mormon, only to be met with dodgy replies - or none at all - speaks directly to the FACT that "the church" KNOWS that the public KNOW that inherent deception and bold-face lies are the way this corp. does business. Does the church change its practices? No. It diddles around with the press. Knowing fully well that millions of people will ACTUALLY believe the play-scripts to be Biblical "truth". This insistence can only derive from a degree of GREED that has self-reduced to a determined malice. "WE. WILL. CONQUER. CORRAL. CONTROL."
The Human problem is that we like "perfect" heroes - error-free doctrine, and even a reliance on "science." But life is messy. Egos are fragile, and character is always flawed. Can't we do as Paul wrote in 1 Thess 5.18 - - - weigh/sift/examine "PROVE" everything.......keep/hold onto the Good? The big LDS problem is that once you've accepted that 100% of your stuff is "error-free" "perfect" and "divine" and that there is "ONE TRUE Church".... all others are apostate...... then if there is EVER discovered ANY flaw.......the whole house of cards collapses. Where can a saint go once they escape the burning building? They've adopted that every other choice is apostate and hated by God. Where can you go ow?
@GKxFORM Paul and John - not to mention Jesus - (as directed in Isaiah chp. 8) diligently INSTRUCTED, WARNED, EXHORTED that ALL doctrine notions, practices must be PROVEN in accordance with the consistency of ALL the O.T. history, prophecy, and THOSE prophets. THERE IS AN IMMUTABLE FOUNDATION, not one tiny pebble of which can be rearranged.
@@sheliabryant3997 Shelia - I was not excusing human error, nor appealing for aberrant doctrine - simply pointing out the human condition - - that necessitates confrontation, conviction, repentance - - - and FORGIVENESS / MERCY! The challenge is that because we WANT heroes, we sometimes let them cover up sin or explain it away - - instead of modeling the same Fear of the Lord that your note so clearly calls for,
31:20 That’s an informed/correct assumption. It was typical policy for adult converts to be ordained a priest for a learning period before advancing to the higher priesthood and its higher ordinances. Also there was a tradition about waiting at least a year after baptism before going through the temple for endowments/sealings. Also to incentivize temple marriages and reinforce control, if a couple got married outside the temple, even if they obeyed chastity laws and had sex only after marriage, they still had to wait a year for temple sealing
they would have to strip away a lot as the kingdoms of glory separate souls drastically based on soul 'quality' from pre-earth existence..... based on church revelation
When you live by the book, you unfortunately will die by the book. You can’t just pick and choose what you’re going to teach. You made the history, you now own it and can’t hide from it.
I have disturbing experience of the racism that existed in Mormonism in the 90’s when I served my mission in the south. And I am not talking about the southerner’s racism, but the missionaries racism, those particularly from Utah and Idaho. There were A LARGE number of missionaries who called the black population “reggins “ , which is the N-word spelled backwards. I was so disgusted and flabbergasted. When I spoke out about it in a zone conference, I was shut down hard. I even remember the dirty look the mission president’s wife gave me. I had held her in such hi regard it truly hurt me. It was a disturbing realization.
I met president Kimball and Helvecio Martins in Brazil. Today, I'm a friend of Martins' son, who was a professor at BYU, Hawaii, until recently. I met his son in Campinas when I was studying at Campinas State University. I have always struggled to believe that the Book of Mormon is an authentic historical and archeological book. Furthermore, I always had deep philosophical problems with the Church. Nonetheless, I have maintained my faith in Jesus Christ and fully acknowledge the authenticity of Judaism as true religion.
I have a picture of me in 6th grade with a black doll. The date on the black explains it all. Right after the racist lifting. I was told by my parents they had vision. BS I found out lie. But the pic is proof it did happen. I ended up getting in mixed relationship and two black children. I wonder if they regret that. I was told my grandma is blind so shhh don't tell her the color of my newborn. Grrrr so pissed. I didn't know racist.
A true man of God Howard Storm, if you guys truly want to hear the story of this man who actually in deed saw Jesus and spoke to him and this wasn’t a made up story… none of the Mormon so called leaders have seen Jesus. Howard storm the way he has been changed in his life you can tell he truly saw and spoke to Jesus Christ. Every time I heard the Mormon leaders I didn’t feel absolutely nothing actually deep inside I felt that this leaders made up a lot of things
it's fantastic that black men were given the priesthood.. However, the second status of LDS women is needs to be addressed and not with empty words and phrases.
@@markkrispin6944 Right. They will use Paul for their excuse - as do many Christian practices - plucking little petals out of the surgically precise narrative of THAT apostle to staple onto the momo WHATCHAMA- CALL IT TREE Yet Paul commended to PHOEBE the office of deacon and spoke gratefully and with utmost respect of numerous Women of Service in the early church - the CHURCH of which Jesus said, "I. WILL. BUILD. MY. CHURCH."
55:00 With as careful and balanced as Matt Harris is, if he thinks your apologetic argument is BS, you can rest assured that your apologetic argument is a heaping pile of BS with a stench to rival that of a decrepit sewage treatment plant. This is a masterclass in "we're not mad, we're just disappointed" callouts of bad apologetics. 10/10. No notes.
Thank you. I am "careful and balanced" because people won't listen to you if you're not. As you can tell, I'm not a fan of apologetics. They follow predetermined outcomes and look for evidence to support their position. That's not scholarship. Scholarship is being willing to go where the evidence takes you and to adjust your position if new evidence emerges.
@@matthewharris7151 Love your work, and I loved the expertly worded shade. You're right about the apologists and the apologetic approach. I'd find it funny if it wasn't so damaging to how people approach the scriptures and the history.
(Although discrimination is terrible, I did have the errant thought that excluding any group from Mormonism or any parts of it could well be seen as a benefit that group overall, keeping them from getting enmeshed in the cult...)
44:13 as someone with a BA in History I can point you it the same about the civil war. When the emancipation proclamation , the end of the civil war the passing of the 13, 14 and 15th amendments didn’t transform former slaves into racial equality. I’m sure for similar reasons ending the priesthood ban didn’t bring about equality either.
Shouldn't you be preparing for his return instead of talking about our black brethren God loves yellow black and white i sang in first grade and people are racist even we Natives are hated when we go in the blue and white store Walmart belongs to to the rich who controls and a Prophet speaks for God unless he is a false Prophet get to pray and read and fast to know if its true what you are saying put on the truth which the Holy Ghost reveals to us and your answer will come brother
I understand you guys need money but I'm starting to get tired of how aggressively you demand it. We're under no obligation to give any money. The guilting into donating is making me feel like I'm back in the Catholic church and I don't appreciate it.
@Zelph_undying I completely understand that, but when they try to shame people and make them feel guilty for not giving enough isn't asking for a donation. That's akin to demanding in my book. It's "we make free content but if you don't give us money you're a bad person". If I want to donate, which I have in the past, I will donate as much as I want when I want. It's like at the store and they turn the tablet around and asking for a tip. If you gave a tip and instead of a "thank you" the cashier said "aren't you going to give us more than that" I would not be tipping them again.
@@patrickthorpe422 I don’t see where “… if you don’t give us money you’re a bad person” was ever said or pop indirectly communicated. A reminder that the creation of the content is only possible because of donations seems appropriate if the goal is to continue making content.
In my family growing up, we were a mix of exmo’s and nevermo’s. My brother converted to the church at age 18 and he tried so hard to convert us all. One night he got so frustrated that he raised his voice and proclaimed that he had seen Jesus Christ in the flesh. You could have heard a pin drop as we all glanced at each other knowing we were all thinking the same thing - which was “this guy is NUTS!”
Matt Harris is a treasure. Protect this man at all costs.
He’s such a great historian!
Thanks for your kind words!
@@matthewharris7151
Thank you for "researching
THE HELL out of this!"
It's THE HELL
IN. THIS. is what we have to work out for ourselves. But when it is essentially
INCONCEIVABLE and so cleverly
hidden in the nebulous,
the non-committal,
the unspeakable -
when one KNOWS so many
"SOMETHINGS" that have the sour pitch and scraping edge of an untuned piano -
only SOMEONE who can discover, recognize, and challenge the incongruities
that people cannot really name while their entrails churn constantly like a nest of leviathans snagged between the pillars of Hercules -
only here have we a hope of
untangling our minds and
relieving our IBS.
Thank 🐦you.
With how emotional people are about the church, it’s a breath of fresh air to have someone like Matt Harris who just lays out the facts.
I like his style as well!
This has been a phenomenal series. One of the very best of MS. The work of Professor Harris is absolutely outstanding. Thank you so much!
Thank you for your support of the series. I'm pleased to know that you're finding this valuable. We appreciate you!
John, the Matt Harris and Carol Lynn Pearson episodes are among the very best you’ve ever done. Incredibly instructive and useful. Thank you! 🙏🏼
I consider myself fortunate to be mentioned in the same breath with Carol Lynn. Thank you for your kind words.
@ You’re most welcome, good sir.
John, I love what you do to bring clarity to so many questions. I’ve always enjoyed supporting your work. Times have been hard, and it makes me sad that I can’t donate at the moment. I say this because I hope that when things improve, I can contribute again-not just for myself, but for everyone who deeply enjoys your episodes, especially series like this one.
I hope anyone that is thinking about donate considers to.
You are very welcome
Thank you. This was the nail in the coffin for me in 2021.
Again, this series is a balm to my soul for showing the true humanity and divinity contained in these people.
I appreciate the academic perspective that pushes away cynical polemics and hagiography.
Thank you
Fantastic discussion!!
I started reading Second Class Saints at the library but then decided to head over to Barnes and Noble to purchase the book. This book is too good and too important to read it for free.
Thanks for your support of my work!
McConkie's lies are an example why we're so pissed at Church leadership. I trusted them explicitly.
Agreed! I think the core of the issue is the deception perpetrated by the highest and founding leaders. For many, this religion didn’t serve our interests.
If the ‘used to’ teach racism but now ‘does better’ that is also saying the church ‘used to’ believe it is led by prophets who meet with God & know his thoughts (which are eternal) but now believes in ‘oops never mind’ as their theology. Ridiculous.
I am always so looking forward to this series!I can’t wait to read the book. The delivery to the UK has been delayed 😢😢😢
I didn't know there's a delay in the UK. I hope it arrives soon!
@@matthewharris7151 Yes it’s quite delayed. I’ve pre-ordered through Amazon in June, delivery should have been in October, now it’s saying it will be delivered between 27December and 10April 2025!
On a positive note, the Kindle edition is now available! So I also got the soft copy! 😀
@@rmj4978 drats! I'm sorry to hear this. I'll look into this and try to figure out what's going on. Appreciate your support!
I don’t think I have ever been angrier in a podcast. The feelings of betrayal I feel over Mcconkie and Packer… their words led to years of shame and hurt and to know how much they lied…. It’s atrocious and there should be penalties to pay when religious leaders knowingly lie. When those lies lead to ungrounded faith that then leads members like me to base their life choices and live through pain bc of that path. It makes me so sad as I grieve my life and all I lost.
I can relate to your feelings. For me it’s been 45 years. I was a teenager when I joined the church. I lost everything. My family disowned me. I lost my jobs, my friends. Just now trying to repair my relationship with my living siblings. My parents are dead so I’m not able to apologize for the hurt I caused. Trying to reconcile my losses. But take heart. We have to look forward and not backwards. You are still young. There is still time.
That’s exactly how I feel! I was even upset with everyone thinking it’s funny. I feel so betrayed by the church leaders.
Don’t worry. God has a way with dealing with false teachers and prophets.
As leaders of the church cannot be honest and say they are human because they are prophets of GOD. Thats how they gain complete compliance and expect a member to Never question their authority. I fell for that crap!!!!!
I remember the public humiliation incident that happened to George Pace.
McConkie giving a last talk bearing testimony of JC does not redeem what he did.
What McConkie did was anti to what Christ is about. Shame on him for denigrating a group of people.
So glad you mentioned George Pace ... I was at BYU then and Pace was one of my fav teachers, greatly loved by many students, and I still remember how upset I was when McConkie called him out for something totally ridiculous... just for saying Jesus is our brother or something like that!
Exactly, thank you. I thought that connection was a real stretch.
Probably he is rotten in hell now
“Embellishing” about seeing god, or not, seems to be a truth or a lie. Nothing between.
I have a new name for McConkie, it is MCdonkey because he is a jackass for the doctrine he wrote in his book. I had a girlfriend that was very catholic but she finally agreed to attend church with me. Some idiot in Sacrament meeting got up and quoted McConkie in his Mormon doctrine where he talks about the Catholic church being the great and abominable. Needless to say that was the end of her interest in the church. She is a lawyer so she is very educated and this went over like a lead balloon.
I had a missionary companion who couldn’t wait for the resurrection … because then his skin would turn white (This was in 1998). I always felt sorry that he believed that.
I’m sorry too for your companion. I’m part Hawaiian but white as I have white blood as well and I wish I was brown.
People with any logical thinking should know Jesus was born in Bethlehem, which is in the Middle East. I have served (military) in the Middle East and most, if not all middle eastern are certainly darker than white people. So for a church wanting to be more like Jesus, the prejudice thinking is disgraceful and disgusting. I am not saying we need to strive to be dark. I’m just saying the leaders who determined the followers should strive to be white is an utterly pea brained. They obviously did know what they were talking about. We should strive to be like Jesus in the way we treat others and how we conduct our lives. One skin type is not better than any other.
This is a great example of how religious myth is created.
Absolutely. I look at how the 4 Gospels were written 30-80 years after Jesus died, the Mormon first vision was first written 12 years after it supposedly happened, and then so many examples of church leaders today fabricating stories (Like Paul Dunn acknowledging his fictitious stories and people like Steve Young saying that Dunn’s stories were central to his own testimony), and the only reasonable conclusion is it’s all fabricated storytelling!
RFM did a beautiful episode on Pace and how much McConkie harmed him.
Thank you!
Thanks!
Thanks for your support of the series!
I appreciate what you began covering starting at 2:18:40. I haven't heard this covered before but I have personal experiences with it. I overheard George Pace and a relative of mine talk about how Spencer Kimball frequently had issues with McConkie and that he was kept around because of members drawn to him by his eccentric and bold speaking.
I also personally know the family of one of McConkie's daughters. There are some shameful stories I have witnessed with them. I wil leave it at that.
The amount of paternalism I witnessed in the Philippines was shocking. I sat in trainings where surgeons, business owners, politicians, etc. were spoken to like they were kindergarteners by representatives from Salt Lake. And it wasn’t a language issue: everyone in the room spoke fluent English. It was racism/nationalist superiority, whatever you want to call it. Not to mention the expectation that anytime one of the 15 came, a cultural celebration was expected, involving traditional costumes that needed to be made for each event and travel expenses and time for dozens and dozens of teenagers to travel to practices. But, hey, the SLC 15 saw it as “their culture” to welcome them in this way. Umm… no. It was an expectation they were struggling to live up to. Uchtdorf told the local leaders not to do it for him, and I hoped the rest would follow suit. Nope.
I would love to see a Filipino Mormon story.
❤”Allow people to grow.” ❤ years of therapy in one breath right there.
I love this series! Thank you John for having a respectful back and forth with Dr Harris around points that sound a little too rosy. I can tell Dr Harris is a believer (or just member) and I appreciate hearing from him although I don’t always align with his take-away points.
Edit:
Matt Harris, I do not hear the statement regarding ‘keeping the church white’ as an infrastructure issue. That feels way too apologetic and is whitewashing the racism. Heavily disagree with you on that point.
Wow! Impressed that JD remembered McConkie's last talk. I remembered it as well. JD tells it well as he makes an excellent point.
I found a family members letter home from his mission during the ban lifting that says: if President Kimball really lifted the ban like they said he did then I’m leaving the church! They never did leave the church, but I always thought that was interesting
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Marvin Perkins spoke at my youth conference. Wonderful guy
"We cannot have an apostolic Gospel which remains foundational and timeless at the point we choose and then remove it at any point of inconvenience to us."
- Alistair Begg
[Church of Jesus Christ]
"Principles and
Patterns of Submission"
(to civil authorities) Part One
Man, what an incredible episode! I have about 45 minutes left but do you mention the interview with Legrand Richards? He seemed to tell a very honest version of the story, which also completely contradicts the embellished versions from McConkie and Packer.
I was 17. I appreciated the lifting of the ban.
You are ncredible. God bless you dear man.
John isn’t a historian, and the historian is trying to tell him the IRS was not a primary motive of lifting the ban. But John doesn’t seem to really like that answer.
And for the record, I’m ex Mormon.
I love this series, I I’m loving the work Dr Harris does in this book. I agree with John that the danger of losing tax status maybe played a bigger role than the records show. Not a major role but a bigger role.
It's the difference between a scholar (like Matt) and an advocate (like John)
I am actually extremely glad John is standing up about this subject. Matt's work is great, but he does seem to have some biases. John is sharing the point of view of other important historians. And just because Matt did not find documented evidence of concerns about losing the tax exempt status, doesn't mean it is a far fetched idea.
The church is so concerned about the inflow of money that they acted ILLEGALLY BY CREATING FALSE COMPANIES TO DECEIVE MEMBERS about their net worth and ensure the inflow of tithes. 🤷🏻♂️
@@MGom1963 You might be right--but we need evidence to make this claim. Thanks for your kind words. I'm pleased that you're enjoying the series and my book.
@@coldwar45 Just for the record I'm okay with folks pushing back on my claims. That's what we call the "marketplace of ideas"--let the truth emerge through debate and discussion.
This whole thing reminds me of a poster from the 1960's.....remember the man on the beach rushing to catch up with a group of people, saying "I must hurry, for i am their leader".
LDS leaders are trying to get away from "white and delightsome"? I don't see it.....the church....you know " the One True chuch", "the only church accepted by GOD" was in error? The church with a prophet? Or God just changed his mind? What else will God change to be in concert with the social changes of his "followers "? Are we to believe anything is changeable....dependent on social changeable norms....and so God will bend to keep followers? Wow...a new mental picture of God.
Incredibly interesting. Like John, I can't help but be upset when I hear the truth about what goes on behind the scenes. TBMs see the leaders as nearly perfect, and in regular communication with Jesus. They are nothing but men, and not necessarily good men, at that.
@iamjustsaying1
X 265 Billion
Yep, just men preaching the theories of men mingled with scripture 😔
Absolutely fascinating
This is the stuff that makes me so glad I got outta the church (well that and I don't miss all the homophobia)
"It was just like Kirtland!"...You mean it was all made up?
😂
Great point
Exactly
Love Matt content and academic integrity. I do disagree with him on one point (and agree with John) - losing tax exempt status for sure played a major contributing role and I base that on 2 main points:
1) LDS leadership has government ‘inside’ men that are loyal to the church above all else (as per their temple oaths). The leaders knew this legal change was close at hand.
2) From an optics perspective, changing the ban AFTER they lost their ability to avoid taxes would look HORRIBLE and paint them as reactive and not prophetic.
For sure many other reasons but the IRS changes for sure played a major role.
@canpow98
X 265 BILLION.
Very interesting interview! I remember it was my birthday when the revelation was announced in 1978, I went upstairs to tell my mom and she was blown away -- she was a BYU alum and member of the Choir. In 1985 I was called to the West Indies Mission side by side with Dan Rascon and 4 others. Arriving in Barbados in 1985 we were met by the Mission President, Ken Zabriskie whom just moved the Mission HQ from Fort Lauterdale FL to Barbados. I really enjoyed that trail-blazing mission down there for the next 2 years!
I am interested in the faith and loyalty to the church of black members that joined and stayed in the church even when they could not have the priesthood. How they felt, what spiritual impressions they had, why they stayed, how were there interactions with the brethren etc? I m sure there is deep spirituality and revelation associated with them staying in the church and working through the process.
Black Latter-day Saints I've asked about this basically said they were already used to living in communities and countries where a history of racist beliefs and segregation and ways they continued was already so normal for them to be dealing with it wasn't shocking to encounter more of the same at Church. They basically decided they were getting what they needed from the Church and were waiting for the racists to grow up and learn a thing or two like in all the other areas of their life. When racism is endemic it doesn't stand out as additionally surprising in Mormonism in the way those of us who expect better are horrified by it. This really helped me make sense of what seems impossible.
@@mormoncivilwar6189thanks for your feedback. I tend to think that there must have been something spiritual to get them to make that change… to leave their previous faith or culture and to accept the church of Jesus Christ via baptism even considering the circumstances of the church at that time…. And then to stay and wait faithfully … even share their experiences throughout and work with the Brethren … there must have been something spiritually there that sustained them. I think that would be an additional perspective that is also worth exploring. There are many faith promoting stories also worth sharing with this trying topic.
Thank you John for standing up about the IRS topic. Matt's work is great, but he does seem to have some biases. And just because Matt did not find documented evidence of concerns about losing the tax exempt status, doesn't mean it is a far fetched idea.
The church is so concerned about the inflow of money that they acted ILLEGALLY BY CREATING FALSE COMPANIES TO DECEIVE MEMBERS about their net worth and ensure the inflow of tithes.
Matt is a grown up. He should be able to take feedback. And just because he is a historian doesn't mean he is free of biases.
Of course, I have biases--we all do. But as a scholar I follow the evidence--no more, no less. As I point out in my book at great length, and as I note on the podcast, the IRS is a big shadow looming over the church. There's no question about that. The Carter administration had been cracking down on religious institutions that held discriminatory theologies and the Brethren were well aware of this. Again, I talk about this at great length in my book. But to say that it was the "prime factor" (as some folks have said on the internet) for lifting the ban is not accurate. I researched this topic thoroughly and broadly and there is no evidence that the IRS prompted SWK to lift the ban in 1978. Like I argue in my book, SWK was going to lift the ban the moment he became the president because it collided with his globalist vision, and to suggest that the IRS is what motivated him when he wanted to do it all along is simply remiss. But the give-and-take that John and I had on the IRS during the podcast is a good one, and I welcome it. Scholars should always be challenged.
@@matthewharris7151I came here to say what Matt says only with far less eloquence😂. Thank you Matt, for your research and for sharing history in a way that can be backed up without assumptions.
@@Sarah-sc9ev thanks for your kind words. I'm happy that you find my work beneficial.
@matthewharris7151 well Mr Harris. I have biases too. And you just confirmed I was right all along about two in this episode. But seriously, thank you for your great work.
@@matthewharris7151
Well, the $$$$$ IS the bottom line for "the church", AS THE CHURCH HAS BOLDLY WITNESSED AGAINST
ITSELF - albeit cunningly, indeed, but boldly, defiantly, and with an increasing aggression that ought to warrant AIR-RAID signals
in minds with an IQ of 60.
THE WITHHOLDING OF such information as they know would cause people to leave skid-marks at their departure says everything that needs saying.
Even now, as people keep asking about the affiliation/ association of the production of "The Chosen" with ANYONE or ANYTHING mormon, only to be met with dodgy replies - or none at all - speaks directly to the FACT that "the church"
KNOWS that the public KNOW
that inherent deception and bold-face lies are the way this corp. does business.
Does the church change its practices? No.
It diddles around with the press. Knowing fully well that millions of people will ACTUALLY believe the play-scripts to be Biblical "truth".
This insistence can only derive from a degree of
GREED that has self-reduced to a determined malice.
"WE. WILL. CONQUER.
CORRAL.
CONTROL."
The Human problem is that we like "perfect" heroes - error-free doctrine, and even a reliance on "science."
But life is messy. Egos are fragile, and character is always flawed.
Can't we do as Paul wrote in 1 Thess 5.18 - - - weigh/sift/examine "PROVE" everything.......keep/hold onto the Good?
The big LDS problem is that once you've accepted that 100% of your stuff is "error-free" "perfect" and "divine" and that there is "ONE TRUE Church".... all others are apostate...... then if there is EVER discovered ANY flaw.......the whole house of cards collapses.
Where can a saint go once they escape the burning building? They've adopted that every other choice is apostate and hated by God.
Where can you go ow?
@GKxFORM
Paul and John - not to mention Jesus - (as directed in Isaiah chp. 8) diligently INSTRUCTED, WARNED, EXHORTED that ALL doctrine notions, practices must be PROVEN in accordance with the consistency of ALL the O.T. history, prophecy, and
THOSE prophets.
THERE IS AN IMMUTABLE FOUNDATION, not one tiny pebble of which can be rearranged.
@@sheliabryant3997 Shelia - I was not excusing human error, nor appealing for aberrant doctrine - simply pointing out the human condition - - that necessitates confrontation, conviction, repentance - - - and FORGIVENESS / MERCY!
The challenge is that because we WANT heroes, we sometimes let them cover up sin or explain it away - - instead of modeling the same Fear of the Lord that your note so clearly calls for,
@@GKxForm
You are kind to amplify for me your cogent comment. No sleep two nights and an eye injury rather limit my grasp just now. 🐦
My husband and I used to attend Genesis. Amazing and strong humans. ✌🏽
Commenting to help.
Why didn't the black church members branch off into Black LDS church, like FLDS?
31:20
That’s an informed/correct assumption. It was typical policy for adult converts to be ordained a priest for a learning period before advancing to the higher priesthood and its higher ordinances. Also there was a tradition about waiting at least a year after baptism before going through the temple for endowments/sealings. Also to incentivize temple marriages and reinforce control, if a couple got married outside the temple, even if they obeyed chastity laws and had sex only after marriage, they still had to wait a year for temple sealing
Thanks
I'm sad. I'm angry. But thank you! Vital work, Matt.
@@alandonly thank you for your kind words--and thank you for your support of MS. We appreciate it very much.
they would have to strip away a lot as the kingdoms of glory separate souls drastically based on soul 'quality' from pre-earth existence..... based on church revelation
When you live by the book, you unfortunately will die by the book. You can’t just pick and choose what you’re going to teach. You made the history, you now own it and can’t hide from it.
Wow must of this things I didn’t know
I have disturbing experience of the racism that existed in Mormonism in the 90’s when I served my mission in the south. And I am not talking about the southerner’s racism, but the missionaries racism, those particularly from Utah and Idaho. There were A LARGE number of missionaries who called the black population “reggins “ , which is the N-word spelled backwards. I was so disgusted and flabbergasted. When I spoke out about it in a zone conference, I was shut down hard. I even remember the dirty look the mission president’s wife gave me. I had held her in such hi regard it truly hurt me. It was a disturbing realization.
Q15 folks love to play with words. Let's call a spade a spade.
I met president Kimball and Helvecio Martins in Brazil. Today, I'm a friend of Martins' son, who was a professor at BYU, Hawaii, until recently. I met his son in Campinas when I was studying at Campinas State University. I have always struggled to believe that the Book of Mormon is an authentic historical and archeological book. Furthermore, I always had deep philosophical problems with the Church. Nonetheless, I have maintained my faith in Jesus Christ and fully acknowledge the authenticity of Judaism as true religion.
Dr John, is the book going to be released audio form? I have way more time to listen than to sit and read.
Yes they’ve said there will be an audiobook sometime next year
Oxford, my publisher, just informed me that the audio book will be out in February 2025. Stay tuned!
Numerous miracle stories abound in all religions. That is why they are religions. No need to punish. Just embrace and believe.
I have a picture of me in 6th grade with a black doll. The date on the black explains it all. Right after the racist lifting. I was told by my parents they had vision. BS I found out lie. But the pic is proof it did happen. I ended up getting in mixed relationship and two black children. I wonder if they regret that. I was told my grandma is blind so shhh don't tell her the color of my newborn. Grrrr so pissed. I didn't know racist.
A true man of God Howard Storm, if you guys truly want to hear the story of this man who actually in deed saw Jesus and spoke to him and this wasn’t a made up story… none of the Mormon so called leaders have seen Jesus. Howard storm the way he has been changed in his life you can tell he truly saw and spoke to Jesus Christ. Every time I heard the Mormon leaders I didn’t feel absolutely nothing actually deep inside I felt that this leaders made up a lot of things
it's fantastic that black men were given the priesthood.. However, the second status of LDS women is needs to be addressed and not with empty words and phrases.
Never will happen. Not with this cult religion
Same with the LGBTQ+ community.
@@markkrispin6944
Right. They will use Paul for their excuse - as do many Christian practices -
plucking little petals out of the surgically precise narrative of THAT apostle to staple onto the momo WHATCHAMA-
CALL IT TREE
Yet Paul commended to PHOEBE the office of deacon and spoke gratefully and with utmost respect of numerous Women of Service
in the early church -
the CHURCH of which Jesus said, "I.
WILL.
BUILD. MY. CHURCH."
@markkrispin6944 right? Women are not that valued!
55:00 With as careful and balanced as Matt Harris is, if he thinks your apologetic argument is BS, you can rest assured that your apologetic argument is a heaping pile of BS with a stench to rival that of a decrepit sewage treatment plant. This is a masterclass in "we're not mad, we're just disappointed" callouts of bad apologetics. 10/10. No notes.
Thank you. I am "careful and balanced" because people won't listen to you if you're not. As you can tell, I'm not a fan of apologetics. They follow predetermined outcomes and look for evidence to support their position. That's not scholarship. Scholarship is being willing to go where the evidence takes you and to adjust your position if new evidence emerges.
@@matthewharris7151 Love your work, and I loved the expertly worded shade. You're right about the apologists and the apologetic approach. I'd find it funny if it wasn't so damaging to how people approach the scriptures and the history.
@@perryekimae thanks. I appreciate the good vibes.
(Although discrimination is terrible, I did have the errant thought that excluding any group from Mormonism or any parts of it could well be seen as a benefit that group overall, keeping them from getting enmeshed in the cult...)
If there were hold outs, that means the Q12 don't believe the prophet speaks for God. This can't be stressed enough here.
44:13 as someone with a BA in History I can point you it the same about the civil war. When the emancipation proclamation , the end of the civil war the passing of the 13, 14 and 15th amendments didn’t transform former slaves into racial equality. I’m sure for similar reasons ending the priesthood ban didn’t bring about equality either.
John’s beating a dead horse with this IRS thing. Matt’s made his position very clear clear and won’t speculate on things that lack evidence
John, seriously just let the man share his research. Why do you have to argue with him about the IRS and Carter.
Shouldn't you be preparing for his return instead of talking about our black brethren God loves yellow black and white i sang in first grade and people are racist even we Natives are hated when we go in the blue and white store Walmart belongs to to the rich who controls and a Prophet speaks for God unless he is a false Prophet get to pray and read and fast to know if its true what you are saying put on the truth which the Holy Ghost reveals to us and your answer will come brother
I'm 73
Quit pushing a narrative against the data John - the IRS angle should be viewed based on the data, wherever that leads.
this profet y apóstols ridicules omofogic
I understand you guys need money but I'm starting to get tired of how aggressively you demand it. We're under no obligation to give any money. The guilting into donating is making me feel like I'm back in the Catholic church and I don't appreciate it.
I mean he's asking for a donation, not demanding it. They got staff to pay, guests to compensate. No money, no new shows.
aggressively???
@@mdhhthh8593 shaming people for not giving enough is an aggressive tactic
@Zelph_undying I completely understand that, but when they try to shame people and make them feel guilty for not giving enough isn't asking for a donation. That's akin to demanding in my book. It's "we make free content but if you don't give us money you're a bad person". If I want to donate, which I have in the past, I will donate as much as I want when I want. It's like at the store and they turn the tablet around and asking for a tip. If you gave a tip and instead of a "thank you" the cashier said "aren't you going to give us more than that" I would not be tipping them again.
@@patrickthorpe422 I don’t see where “… if you don’t give us money you’re a bad person” was ever said or pop indirectly communicated.
A reminder that the creation of the content is only possible because of donations seems appropriate if the goal is to continue making content.
Oh boy this is so one sided
Tell us about the other side
You said this is one-sided 5 hours before the live feed actually started. Somebody is projecting!
Are you a fortune teller? Good Lord. You haven't even watched it.
this person is just a Mormon afraid people will tell the truth and destroy their church’s truth claims
The man took 15 years to write the book. He's explored every side.
Thanks!
Thanks for your support of the series!
Thanks!
Thanks!
Thanks for your support of these episodes!
@@matthewharris7151
Privilege and pleasure.
Thanks!