This varies from one table to the next. That's why you need to find the "benchmark shot" on a particular table. On most pool tables, the sweet spot is closer to "thru 2.5" on the 1st rail. Try it out on different tables to see for yourself.
Thanks for the comment, and I'm glad you like my stuff. In terms of where to start, I'd recommend you first visit the website linked in the video description above. I have lots of video clips and information posted that can help you decide what you might want to purchase. I think most people prefer starting with VEPS; although, many people can also benefit from VEPP. It depends on the person; although, I'd recommend starting with VEPS (or just VEPS-I) if money is an issue.
Thanks to this Video, and applying some of the techniques from this video and a few other videos from your channel, I was able to place 1st in a recent 8ball tournament and beat a guy who consistently destroyed me every time we played before. I got him 5 out of 7 times we played that day!! Please keep these great videos coming!
Easier than doing the math - find the reference point for the first bank. On most tables that is the second diamond. Aim through diamond two (or reference for particular table) from the corner pocket reference point. Pick a spot on the wall or on anything that happens to be well aligned (a bar stool, etc.). Now, from wherever the cue ball is laying, aim through the cue ball to the spot on the wall (or whatever marker you are using) and from that, pick the corresponding spot along the first rail. Shoot to that spot using high follow English and you'll hit the three rail pocket. If the object ball is on the short rail or long rail versus aligned with the pocket, make the adjustments as outlined in the video.
The "spot on the wall" system works well if you always play on the same table and if there are walls and other fixed objects the right distance from the table in all directions. For more info, see the info and articles here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/spot-on-wall/
@@DrDaveBilliards You are right - cloth friction and bumper differences can change the spot very slightly. Before shooting league games on a new table I typically test the three rail from each corner and remember the adjustment. The distance of the walls matters little, but finding something to reference can be a challenge. Sometimes I'll pick a beer on a table and hope no one moves it before I complete the shot... :)
The Corner-5 System isn't something that is easy to learn, especially from a short online video. It takes, learning, practice, and experience. If you want more info and help, I have several well-illustrated instructional articles available on my EDU website (see the link in the video description) in the FAQ section under "banks and kicks."
That is an useful estimate if you don't have a feel for the actual angle. You will get a better feel for actual angles as you practice with the system and observe the angles off the 2nd cushion.
It might not be as simple as you make it sound; but once you get the hang of it, the Corner-5 System can be applied effectively in different game situations (as we demonstrated in the online video and on the DVD).
DrDaveBilliards bless your patience dr. d ! if confused ..... decimal points are found after learning multiplication and before improper fractions in any 3rd grade textbooks . thanks dr. ....i ve made 3 in league play already
Are you just offering general advice, or is your comment specifically related to this video? I agree that "take your time" is excellent general advice.
@Eptapus I don't think I've ever seen a pool table that wasn't "dimensioned officially," but all tables place a little differently due to ball, cloth, and cushion differences. Despite this, the Corner-5 System formula does amazingly well at predicting the 3rd-rail diamond on a wide range of tables. However, the track off the 3rd rail can vary a fair amount among tables. For more info, see the series of articles on my website that have been appearing in Billiards Digest recently.
excellent video! thanx 4 sharing!! and 4 those who think it's too complicated 2 understand after watching the vid once, watch it twice, or three times...however many times it takes. it's good info. rewinds and pauses help, too.
Thank you for the great video on this system, Dr. Dave. I think, though, that it's more useful to present your equation as solving for F rather than T: F = D - T (instead of thinking of the system as T = D - F), since the point of this system is to figure out where on the first rail you need to aim the cue ball in order to hit your target. Thinking of the system in this way makes it much simpler for me to understand and use in practice.
@@DrDaveBilliards Still one would have to shoot from each corner to find the benchmark/correct rail numbers as possibly each rail might be slightly off-system in different ways. How the heck does one keep track of something like that?
THIS WAS AWESOME!! if I understood this correctly you aim for a suitable point and subtract it until you hit point number 3 and THATS IT? if it works it is indeed awesome....
the game we played at are town,was called crazy 8 or its called 1-15 ball in the side bank the 8,1 and 15 ball has to be made in left side pocket and banking the 8 1 or more rails and kick in shots on 8 3 rails or more,if make 8 in wrong pocket or during before on 8 ball,it comes out and gets spotted,or on any other ball,object of the game is to set up your side ball,never leave your side ball last ball on the table before 8
@@StringDriver This type of system isn’t for everybody, but if you need to go off 3 rails, it is very effective … maybe worth multiple views, trying at a table one thing at a time.
@@DrDaveBilliards I completely appreciate you, your approach and the painstaking efforts you make to teach. You are a true teacher. Impressive. With a great passion for the game. Many things to appreciate!
I know the system works well, but in recent years a lot of people have dropped the decimal system and used a tens system (1 = 10, 2 = 20) which makes the math a lot easier to be honest. Have you thought about updating the documentation to be a bit more modern?
At 9:12 why can we "assume the cue ball comes off the second rail at about 45 degrees"? The original angle from 5 to long rail 2 diamond is not 45, so why would second rail be 45? Is the rolling running English responsible to change the angle from 30 degrees (1st rail original angle) to 45 degrees on second rail? Edit: I think you're going to say "from experience, that we're shooting through 2 (or 2.5) on Rail#1 and through 2 on Rail#3, if running English is done right, the 2nd rail would be flattened to about 45. Doesn't feel intuitive that through 2d on R1 (closer to side pocket) and through 2d on R3 (closer to corner pocket) results in 45 on R2. I need some graph paper! Haha
Every table (with pockets) that I've ever played, regardless of size, has a corner pocket formula of 5. 2. 3, not 5. 3. 2. When available, I use a "spot on the wall" method for finding the angle rather than running the numbers. Simply aim from 5 through 2, and look for a marker on the wall (could be a bar stool leg, etc.). Now, from anywhere on the table, aim at that spot on the wall and the math is automatic (you can double check the math by looking where the but is for start rail and the first bank point is for first rail. Both systems would obviously work - situation determines which is faster / easier.
I agree that 5-3-2 to the corner is not common on a pool table, as we demonstrate in the video. Good idea concerning using "spot on the wall." FYI, lots of info regarding this technique is available here: billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#spot
Dr. Dave, I don't think we are in agreement. You are saying 5, 3, 2 is the three rail shot on a pool table that is "on system." Every table I've played is 5, 2, 3. Based on 50 years of shooting three rail shots on countless tables, I think 5, 2, 3 would represent an "on system" table. Please check that out. Of course, as you note, the shot does require running English.
Sorry, but I meant to agree with you in my previous comment, which I have since corrected. I originally wrote "5-3-2 to the corner is common, as we demonstrate in the video" but I meant to write "5-3-2 to the corner is not common, as we demonstrate in the video." Sorry for the mistake.
I think I see one problem - your aim point (the five) is the back of the corner pocket. The cue ball set up in the video linked above is not consistent with that line. If you set your straight line from the back of five through diamond two, and shoot with running English, I think you will find it is very close on virtually any pool table you choose to test.
I don't have the 8' table in the video anymore, but on my current 9' Olhaussen and on the Valley bar boxes at my local pool hall, the benchmark shot to the corner is close to 5-2.5-2.5. However, this depends on cloth conditions. With a new/slick cloth, the ball will tend to go long and you need to aim closer to 3; and on old/sticky cloth, the ball will tend to go short and you will need to aim closer to 2. Things also vary with shot speed and the amount of running sidespin. That's why it is important to practice the "benchmark shot" on a particular table before attempting to use the system.
This is mostly a 3rd-rail system, but the 2nd-rail sometimes needs to be checked or targeted; although the midpoint-parallel-shift system is better for that: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/midpoint/
This system is great but is there a similar system for 3 rail banks? Seems like it works for the benchmark (5 - 2 = 3 in my case) but breaks down at about 4 - 1 = 3
If going off a short-rail first, the Plus System works well: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/plus/ It also helps to know how to make adjustments with the Corner-5 system: billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2011/jan11.pdf No kicking/banking system is perfect over a wide range of angles, speeds, and spins, and results will vary on different tables, so one much know how to make adjustments.
@@DrDaveBilliards Hey thanks for the reply Dave! I use your plus system as well and it works great too as long as I adjust it for my table and go down half a diamond (3 to 2.5 instead of 3 to 3 for example) I was just wondering about actual 3 rail banks rather than kicks. Gets pretty tough when not just kicking the cue ball! I figured it was just a matter of adjusting it to work with banks and a bit of the ol' hit a million balls method haha
@@phelixanger6152 Sorry about that. I don't know of any reliable 3-rail banking systems (other than learning to adjust relative to the 3-rail kicking systems). Here's a two-rail banking system that works fairly well: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/two-rail/
@@DrDaveBilliards Ah that's what I was thinking, didn't seem like there were any systems, just practice makes perfect. I'll check that link out, thanks again!
Hello Dave. I am a bit of a numbers guy coming from a bit of a coding background (video game dev) and have a nack for figuring things you could say. So what if I said just by watching this video I figured out how to get to the desired destination with the cue ball to the corner pocket and to any spot around it just by a couple things I noticed with the numbers here? The system seems effective yet its a bit off for the corner shot from what ive gathered and that means its likely not just how each table plays. I know the felt and rail compression might be factors but the pattern I saw based on your adjustments to make it work seems a bit too big to ignore when I began to compute why it was leading to the pocket. So after some thinking and trying some things I corrected just two things and it allowed me to get to that pocket and the numbers matched on every single diagram that lead to the pocket. So without your examples it would have been difficult for sure. And before that I noticed a interesting pattern that when done (it's quick and easy) you should be able to get to anywhere on the table without the complexity of minusing decimals and well less remembering where that might lead you. I mean, of course you always have to do a bit of math but when its simplified its a good thing right? Best of all it works with the end point in mind but still follows a core similar principle. Ive actually altered two other well known pool systems with great success this month so this would be the third and now one of my own is in development. Maybe I should write a book or at the very least publish my findings online at some point. Would love to discuss this with you when you have time. What would be the best way to reach out?
@@CosplayZine Feel free to email me your idea at drdave@drdavebilliards.com BTW, Another useful system for aiming 2-rail kicks off any rail with any CB and OB positions, with no need for numbers or calculations, is the midpoint-parallel shift system: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/midpoint/ Check it out.
@@gsgeiger That system works well when going off two rails, assuming you know how to make adjustments when required, per the info and video here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/midpoint/
@DrDaveBilliards thank you. I watched it. I learned it back in 1986. It's been my go-to way, and adjustments have become natural. I just don't do well with math during my shooting, except for 2 rail kick shots that need to be at a certain place, then I use diamonds, and count up the rail for the angle. It's pretty fast.
just wondering...when kicking three rails at the 3-ball off the cushion, on what basis do we assume that the angle of the cue ball off the second rail will be 45 degrees?
I know some people do and have used the 10's system for a long time, but I certainly wouldn't call it "more modern." Also, I think whether it is easier or not will depend on the person. Also, if we change to 10s, it would be called the "Corner 50 System" instead. That just doesn't sound right to me. Maybe I'm too old and prefer the purity and simplicity of the "Corner 5 System" ("1" and "5" instead of "10" and "50").
what if the cue ball is closer to the middle, more closer to object ball where do you aim at first rail? a lil bit before the side pocket rather than below side pocket? am i right?
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. It doesn't matter where the CB is along a line of aim as long as the CB is rolling into the first cushion. Now, if the side pocket gets in the way of a required line of aim, obviously you need to change the line of aim some (and adjust with speed and/or spin). Info on how to make adjustments can be found in the third article here: billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#Corner
righturnonly Yes. Complete info (including a detailed video demonstration and an instructional article) can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#spot
also, for that same three-rail shot on the 3-ball off the cushion, after we have determined the 3rd rail number to be 2.8, could we shoot at the 2nd diamond on the first rail using 4.8 as our cue ball origination number and still achieve the desired result (4.8 - 2 = 2.8)?
from looking at your two rail and three rail videos you pretty much most kicks covered in these categories but what if I'm wanting to do a two rail kick that goes from one long rail to the other long rail instead of long to short (like your three rail video) or short to long (as your two rail kick)
FYI, systems for aiming all sorts of kick and bank shots (with numerous video demonstrations and instructional articles) can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html The easiest ones for 1-rail kicks (off long or short rails) are described and demonstrated here: ruclips.net/video/grwLuzfleWw/видео.html ruclips.net/video/IwGrpwXCfFE/видео.html Enjoy, Dr. Dave
Oddly enough I have a diamond Red Label table from 2004 that shoots exactly "on System" so my 3 rail shot is from corner into the first diamond past the side pocket. How is that possible? LOL.
Does it play "on system" for 1- and 2-rail kicks also? Most Diamond tables, especially the Red Label tables, kick and bank very short per the info and demos here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/Diamond/ Were your rails or cushions modified? Please try the shots in this video and let us know how it goes: "Kick and Bank Shot Diamond Systems, and Pool Table Differences" ruclips.net/video/kWUADt_5cks/видео.html
@@DrDaveBilliards So far everything I have tried was "on System" No this table has not been modified I bought it from the factory in 2004 and set it up myself. I will need to try some of the 2 rail but I know the one rail kicks work as they should.
@@Sigep-lq8yq That is very odd, unless you have brand new and slick cloth with clean/polished balls in a dry environment, all of which cause a table to kick/bank longer.
See the example at 3:07. An alternative way is to look at standard tracks close to the CB and estimate (or do a 2-to-1 shift) in between. See VEPS for more info.
@@ashwinkumar4168 Unfortunately, there are many other videos I prefer to make. FYI, much more information can be found here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/corner-5/ and on VEPS-IV: drdavebilliards.com/veps/disc-iv/
It is easier to understand it this way, say you are at 4 1/2 Dimond , make no difference on which rail you are, just minus the number on the other rail, that is your aiming point, you subtract 3 from 4 1/2 and your hitting spot is 1 1/2. Say you are at the short rail and q ball is on 6 1/2 , you minus 3 and hitting spot is 3 1/2. as long the table it does not play short, if it does you make the adjustment. Say the table plays 1/2 a Diamond short or long. The best way to do it is, if it pays short you add .5 if it plays long you minus .5. Example you are at Dimond 6, 6 -s 3 = 3 if it plays short you add .5 now your contact point to the rail is 3 1/2. I f it plays long, 6 -s 3 = 3 -s 5 contact point on the other rail is 2 1/2. Hope this is more clear. Thanks George
sir,the shot i mentioned isnt on this video,my shot only rails the cue ball hits is on only right side and and other head rail comes back down hits 8 ball in for 2 rail kick in or cue ball hits rail by 8 ball for 3 rail kick in..high right english is used...practice it... the cue ball doesnt go around the table in my shot...down and straight back.
Sorry about that. I think the shot you are describing is the classic "double the rail with sidespin" shot. I don't have a video of this shot, and I couldn't find one with a RUclips search, but it is a classic shot. It is difficult to judge the angle and sidespin required, but if you try it some, it's not that hard to figure out.
i know the shot,i practice it,i was just wondering if you did,if that comes up while game playing against a player ,i do it,the player im playing against always say why do you kick it in 1 rail,i say ill do this way,its more awesome this way.
its a difficult shot if you do it the short rail shot on head of table rather than doing the long way,ive seen people make the shot 3-4 times while playing in league pool years ago,are town all bars had big 9 foot not pay tables,i can make the shot doing it the long way,i practice uptown,we also do 4 rail, or 5th rail by the 8 ball kick in shots
I just tried the 5-3-2 rail on my table and it is not even close. My table(9fter) shoots 5-1 1/2-3 to make cue in 3 rail corner. I just tuned in so still watching and trying to wrap my brains around this.
i really love your videos and i am very passionate about pool, so much so that i am considering going pro...i am very much a visual and conceptual learner, so your method of teaching and explanation suits me quite well...i would love to purchase both the VEPS and the VEPP, but i'm only a college student and i just can't afford to shell out $220 in pool training materials...so what would you recommend as the optimal starting point for me? your input would be greatly appreciated...
Susmito Rittik hopefully 6 years later you’re still playing pool and maybe even professionally. For other people with the same plight, consider $220 a cheap investment in your professional education! I had college textbooks that nearly cost that much. Whether it’s to win tournaments, go pro, hustle your friends, or just enjoy the game more, invest in dr Dave’s videos. I bought the HAPS series. Getting pool table this week. Once I get the basic strokes and aiming down I’ll likely buy the other series. Best videos on the market!! He deserves to make a little money for putting it together.
had to watch 3 or 4 times to 'click---& wow/... i round off to nearest fraction 1/4,1/2 etc.... and adjust a little Eng. or speed in area i think needed on the fly while playing. tnx
@randallpaulcom If you want more help, check out the instructional articles under this topic in the "bank and kick shot" page in the FAQ section of my billiards DOT colostate DOT edu website.
Unfortunately I cannot follow this system as I don't have a degree in gobbledegook. The main question is of course 'Why is the corner pocket numbered 5 in the first place?' 'Because it just is' is NOT the answer I am looking for :)
If you want to learn more, see the articles and other info here: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/corner-5/ The number at the corner is 5 because that is what makes the math work. This system has been around for a really long time.
Sir there are any other easy technic or method ? Where any uneducated or math weak human Easily play any Trickshot bank shot railshot Without hard diamonds calculation
Yes. None of the following systems use diamonds and math: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/mirror/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/contact-point-mirror/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/mirror/ billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/midpoint/
this with enough practice will work well, but the side effect is it creates a tortuously slow pool player who will bore the opponent and the viewers, you know that guy, he takes FORREEVEER to shoot a simple shot, and twice as long( eternity?) to shoot a kick shot.
You are right ... some people would be very slow using this system. However, those who practice it enough should be able to use it fairly quickly, to the point where it is not even noticeable that they are using it.
DrDaveBilliards you look like the guy from Lost, matthew fox, people will find this system more confusing than that show, hhahahahahahahhahhaha, im so clever : )
+MyLabbu Some people number the diamonds with 10's instead of 1's so 2.8 and 3.5 become 28 and 35 instead. Some people just think in fractions instead (e.g., 3 1/2 diamonds instead of 3.5, or a "touch more than 2 3/4" for 2.8). And for the more-visual person, the "spot-on-the-wall" and mirror systems are more helpful. For more info and demonstrations, see: billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#spot billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#mirror
I didn't invent this system. I'm just presenting it as clearly as I can for those who might find it helpful. Not all people will find this type of system helpful.
This varies from one table to the next. That's why you need to find the "benchmark shot" on a particular table. On most pool tables, the sweet spot is closer to "thru 2.5" on the 1st rail. Try it out on different tables to see for yourself.
you are correct,
Thanks for the comment, and I'm glad you like my stuff.
In terms of where to start, I'd recommend you first visit the website linked in the video description above. I have lots of video clips and information posted that can help you decide what you might want to purchase. I think most people prefer starting with VEPS; although, many people can also benefit from VEPP. It depends on the person; although, I'd recommend starting with VEPS (or just VEPS-I) if money is an issue.
Thanks to this Video, and applying some of the techniques from this video and a few other videos from your channel, I was able to place 1st in a recent 8ball tournament and beat a guy who consistently destroyed me every time we played before. I got him 5 out of 7 times we played that day!! Please keep these great videos coming!
Easier than doing the math - find the reference point for the first bank. On most tables that is the second diamond. Aim through diamond two (or reference for particular table) from the corner pocket reference point. Pick a spot on the wall or on anything that happens to be well aligned (a bar stool, etc.). Now, from wherever the cue ball is laying, aim through the cue ball to the spot on the wall (or whatever marker you are using) and from that, pick the corresponding spot along the first rail. Shoot to that spot using high follow English and you'll hit the three rail pocket. If the object ball is on the short rail or long rail versus aligned with the pocket, make the adjustments as outlined in the video.
The "spot on the wall" system works well if you always play on the same table and if there are walls and other fixed objects the right distance from the table in all directions. For more info, see the info and articles here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/spot-on-wall/
@@DrDaveBilliards You are right - cloth friction and bumper differences can change the spot very slightly. Before shooting league games on a new table I typically test the three rail from each corner and remember the adjustment. The distance of the walls matters little, but finding something to reference can be a challenge. Sometimes I'll pick a beer on a table and hope no one moves it before I complete the shot... :)
The Corner-5 System isn't something that is easy to learn, especially from a short online video. It takes, learning, practice, and experience.
If you want more info and help, I have several well-illustrated instructional articles available on my EDU website (see the link in the video description) in the FAQ section under "banks and kicks."
That is an useful estimate if you don't have a feel for the actual angle. You will get a better feel for actual angles as you practice with the system and observe the angles off the 2nd cushion.
It might not be as simple as you make it sound; but once you get the hang of it, the Corner-5 System can be applied effectively in different game situations (as we demonstrated in the online video and on the DVD).
DrDaveBilliards bless your patience dr. d ! if confused ..... decimal points are found after learning multiplication and before improper fractions in any 3rd grade textbooks . thanks dr. ....i ve made 3 in league play already
All I'm gonna say is.. Take your time. Your game will thank you for it.
Oh, and thanks for sharing Dave.
Are you just offering general advice, or is your comment specifically related to this video?
I agree that "take your time" is excellent general advice.
DrDaveBilliards Yes, just advice. Sorry for confusing you.
@Eptapus
I don't think I've ever seen a pool table that wasn't "dimensioned officially," but all tables place a little differently due to ball, cloth, and cushion differences. Despite this, the Corner-5 System formula does amazingly well at predicting the 3rd-rail diamond on a wide range of tables. However, the track off the 3rd rail can vary a fair amount among tables. For more info, see the series of articles on my website that have been appearing in Billiards Digest recently.
excellent video! thanx 4 sharing!! and 4 those who think it's too complicated 2 understand after watching the vid once, watch it twice, or three times...however many times it takes. it's good info. rewinds and pauses help, too.
Thank you for the great video on this system, Dr. Dave. I think, though, that it's more useful to present your equation as solving for F rather than T: F = D - T (instead of thinking of the system as T = D - F), since the point of this system is to figure out where on the first rail you need to aim the cue ball in order to hit your target. Thinking of the system in this way makes it much simpler for me to understand and use in practice.
Good point. There are many ways to use the system, and each is helpful in different situations. We have lots of examples on VEPS.
@@DrDaveBilliards Still one would have to shoot from each corner to find the benchmark/correct rail numbers as possibly each rail might be slightly off-system in different ways. How the heck does one keep track of something like that?
@@JD-fx1np There isn’t much difference on a well installed table, but you make good points.
These videos are great, and I like the Monty Python organ that you use on the segment cuts.
neuvocastezero 1 Tah Dah!
THIS WAS AWESOME!! if I understood this correctly you aim for a suitable point and subtract it until you hit point number 3 and THATS IT? if it works it is indeed awesome....
Awesome! Nice system to know. Can't wait to try it on a table.
This is exactly what i was looking for !!!!♥
I'm glad to hear it.
Thanks. Please help spread the word about VEPS.
Dr. Dave
You're welcome. Please help spread the word about my stuff.
I'm glad you like and benefit from my stuff. Please help spread the word.
And congrats on your tournament win!
the game we played at are town,was called crazy 8 or its called 1-15 ball in the side bank the 8,1 and 15 ball has to be made in left side pocket and banking the 8 1 or more rails and kick in shots on 8 3 rails or more,if make 8 in wrong pocket or during before on 8 ball,it comes out and gets spotted,or on any other ball,object of the game is to set up your side ball,never leave your side ball last ball on the table before 8
@psychedelicard
Thank you ... and you're welcome!
Please help spread the word about my vids, website, and instructional products.
Dr. Dave
This is awesome, im going to try it out. Nice video
This makes my head spin
@@StringDriver This type of system isn’t for everybody, but if you need to go off 3 rails, it is very effective … maybe worth multiple views, trying at a table one thing at a time.
@@DrDaveBilliards I completely appreciate you, your approach and the painstaking efforts you make to teach. You are a true teacher. Impressive. With a great passion for the game. Many things to appreciate!
@@StringDriver Thank you!
I know the system works well, but in recent years a lot of people have dropped the decimal system and used a tens system (1 = 10, 2 = 20) which makes the math a lot easier to be honest. Have you thought about updating the documentation to be a bit more modern?
I agree ... this is strange ... but useful.
At 9:12 why can we "assume the cue ball comes off the second rail at about 45 degrees"? The original angle from 5 to long rail 2 diamond is not 45, so why would second rail be 45? Is the rolling running English responsible to change the angle from 30 degrees (1st rail original angle) to 45 degrees on second rail? Edit: I think you're going to say "from experience, that we're shooting through 2 (or 2.5) on Rail#1 and through 2 on Rail#3, if running English is done right, the 2nd rail would be flattened to about 45. Doesn't feel intuitive that through 2d on R1 (closer to side pocket) and through 2d on R3 (closer to corner pocket) results in 45 on R2. I need some graph paper! Haha
I assume you mean 3:33. That's just an approximation to get close (based on a rough visualization of the shot).
Every table (with pockets) that I've ever played, regardless of size, has a corner pocket formula of 5. 2. 3, not 5. 3. 2. When available, I use a "spot on the wall" method for finding the angle rather than running the numbers. Simply aim from 5 through 2, and look for a marker on the wall (could be a bar stool leg, etc.).
Now, from anywhere on the table, aim at that spot on the wall and the math is automatic (you can double check the math by looking where the but is for start rail and the first bank point is for first rail. Both systems would obviously work - situation determines which is faster / easier.
I agree that 5-3-2 to the corner is not common on a pool table, as we demonstrate in the video.
Good idea concerning using "spot on the wall." FYI, lots of info regarding this technique is available here:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#spot
Dr. Dave, I don't think we are in agreement. You are saying 5, 3, 2 is the three rail shot on a pool table that is "on system." Every table I've played is 5, 2, 3. Based on 50 years of shooting three rail shots on countless tables, I think 5, 2, 3 would represent an "on system" table. Please check that out. Of course, as you note, the shot does require running English.
Sorry, but I meant to agree with you in my previous comment, which I have since corrected. I originally wrote "5-3-2 to the corner is common, as we demonstrate in the video" but I meant to write "5-3-2 to the corner is not common, as we demonstrate in the video." Sorry for the mistake.
I think I see one problem - your aim point (the five) is the back of the corner pocket. The cue ball set up in the video linked above is not consistent with that line. If you set your straight line from the back of five through diamond two, and shoot with running English, I think you will find it is very close on virtually any pool table you choose to test.
I don't have the 8' table in the video anymore, but on my current 9' Olhaussen and on the Valley bar boxes at my local pool hall, the benchmark shot to the corner is close to 5-2.5-2.5. However, this depends on cloth conditions. With a new/slick cloth, the ball will tend to go long and you need to aim closer to 3; and on old/sticky cloth, the ball will tend to go short and you will need to aim closer to 2. Things also vary with shot speed and the amount of running sidespin. That's why it is important to practice the "benchmark shot" on a particular table before attempting to use the system.
Thanks!!!!
What could I say to someone who's curious about the second rail? Is it simply ignored unless other balls get in the way?
This is mostly a 3rd-rail system, but the 2nd-rail sometimes needs to be checked or targeted; although the midpoint-parallel-shift system is better for that:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/midpoint/
This system is great but is there a similar system for 3 rail banks? Seems like it works for the benchmark (5 - 2 = 3 in my case) but breaks down at about 4 - 1 = 3
If going off a short-rail first, the Plus System works well:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/plus/
It also helps to know how to make adjustments with the Corner-5 system:
billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2011/jan11.pdf
No kicking/banking system is perfect over a wide range of angles, speeds, and spins, and results will vary on different tables, so one much know how to make adjustments.
@@DrDaveBilliards Hey thanks for the reply Dave! I use your plus system as well and it works great too as long as I adjust it for my table and go down half a diamond (3 to 2.5 instead of 3 to 3 for example) I was just wondering about actual 3 rail banks rather than kicks. Gets pretty tough when not just kicking the cue ball! I figured it was just a matter of adjusting it to work with banks and a bit of the ol' hit a million balls method haha
@@phelixanger6152 Sorry about that. I don't know of any reliable 3-rail banking systems (other than learning to adjust relative to the 3-rail kicking systems). Here's a two-rail banking system that works fairly well:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/two-rail/
@@DrDaveBilliards Ah that's what I was thinking, didn't seem like there were any systems, just practice makes perfect.
I'll check that link out, thanks again!
Hello Dave. I am a bit of a numbers guy coming from a bit of a coding background (video game dev) and have a nack for figuring things you could say. So what if I said just by watching this video I figured out how to get to the desired destination with the cue ball to the corner pocket and to any spot around it just by a couple things I noticed with the numbers here? The system seems effective yet its a bit off for the corner shot from what ive gathered and that means its likely not just how each table plays. I know the felt and rail compression might be factors but the pattern I saw based on your adjustments to make it work seems a bit too big to ignore when I began to compute why it was leading to the pocket. So after some thinking and trying some things I corrected just two things and it allowed me to get to that pocket and the numbers matched on every single diagram that lead to the pocket. So without your examples it would have been difficult for sure. And before that I noticed a interesting pattern that when done (it's quick and easy) you should be able to get to anywhere on the table without the complexity of minusing decimals and well less remembering where that might lead you. I mean, of course you always have to do a bit of math but when its simplified its a good thing right? Best of all it works with the end point in mind but still follows a core similar principle. Ive actually altered two other well known pool systems with great success this month so this would be the third and now one of my own is in development. Maybe I should write a book or at the very least publish my findings online at some point. Would love to discuss this with you when you have time. What would be the best way to reach out?
@@CosplayZine Feel free to email me your idea at drdave@drdavebilliards.com
BTW, Another useful system for aiming 2-rail kicks off any rail with any CB and OB positions, with no need for numbers or calculations, is the midpoint-parallel shift system:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/midpoint/
Check it out.
I use the midpoint- parallel system. I get timed for my shots, and math interrupts my flow. It's just my way.
@@gsgeiger That system works well when going off two rails, assuming you know how to make adjustments when required, per the info and video here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/midpoint/
@DrDaveBilliards thank you. I watched it. I learned it back in 1986. It's been my go-to way, and adjustments have become natural. I just don't do well with math during my shooting, except for 2 rail kick shots that need to be at a certain place, then I use diamonds, and count up the rail for the angle. It's pretty fast.
@DrDaveBilliards, is there a 3 rail system the starts with the short rail?
@@andrewcbuensalida you can use the Plus System for 3-rail kicks:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/plus/
just wondering...when kicking three rails at the 3-ball off the cushion, on what basis do we assume that the angle of the cue ball off the second rail will be 45 degrees?
I know some people do and have used the 10's system for a long time, but I certainly wouldn't call it "more modern." Also, I think whether it is easier or not will depend on the person. Also, if we change to 10s, it would be called the "Corner 50 System" instead. That just doesn't sound right to me. Maybe I'm too old and prefer the purity and simplicity of the "Corner 5 System" ("1" and "5" instead of "10" and "50").
DrDaveBilliards How can I get this DVD's in portuguese on Brazil? Please
@@carinhaquemoralogoali7657 Sorry, but they are currently available only in English.
Official dimensioned tables should apply to the 5-3 system?
what if the cue ball is closer to the middle, more closer to object ball where do you aim at first rail? a lil bit before the side pocket rather than below side pocket? am i right?
I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. It doesn't matter where the CB is along a line of aim as long as the CB is rolling into the first cushion. Now, if the side pocket gets in the way of a required line of aim, obviously you need to change the line of aim some (and adjust with speed and/or spin). Info on how to make adjustments can be found in the third article here:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#Corner
ericou812 Heard about the "spot on the wall" ?
righturnonly Yes. Complete info (including a detailed video demonstration and an instructional article) can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#spot
also, for that same three-rail shot on the 3-ball off the cushion, after we have determined the 3rd rail number to be 2.8, could we shoot at the 2nd diamond on the first rail using 4.8 as our cue ball origination number and still achieve the desired result (4.8 - 2 = 2.8)?
from looking at your two rail and three rail videos you pretty much most kicks covered in these categories but what if I'm wanting to do a two rail kick that goes from one long rail to the other long rail instead of long to short (like your three rail video) or short to long (as your two rail kick)
FYI, systems for aiming all sorts of kick and bank shots (with numerous video demonstrations and instructional articles) can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html
The easiest ones for 1-rail kicks (off long or short rails) are described and demonstrated here:
ruclips.net/video/grwLuzfleWw/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/IwGrpwXCfFE/видео.html
Enjoy,
Dr. Dave
Oddly enough I have a diamond Red Label table from 2004 that shoots exactly "on System" so my 3 rail shot is from corner into the first diamond past the side pocket. How is that possible? LOL.
Does it play "on system" for 1- and 2-rail kicks also? Most Diamond tables, especially the Red Label tables, kick and bank very short per the info and demos here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/Diamond/
Were your rails or cushions modified?
Please try the shots in this video and let us know how it goes:
"Kick and Bank Shot Diamond Systems, and Pool Table Differences"
ruclips.net/video/kWUADt_5cks/видео.html
@@DrDaveBilliards So far everything I have tried was "on System" No this table has not been modified I bought it from the factory in 2004 and set it up myself. I will need to try some of the 2 rail but I know the one rail kicks work as they should.
@DrDaveBilliards yes they are all on system I guess I have a unusual red label
Bad thing is all other tables play totally different than mine on banks lol
@@Sigep-lq8yq That is very odd, unless you have brand new and slick cloth with clean/polished balls in a dry environment, all of which cause a table to kick/bank longer.
If the ball is not on point then how to find the angle
It means cue ball is placed at random position anywhere on the table then how to calculate
See the example at 3:07. An alternative way is to look at standard tracks close to the CB and estimate (or do a 2-to-1 shift) in between. See VEPS for more info.
@@DrDaveBilliards what is VEPS
@@ashwinkumar4168 "Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots" (VEPS), from which this clip was taken. For more info, see:
drdavebilliards.com/videos/veps/
Sir can you make video on detail example 3:07
@@ashwinkumar4168 Unfortunately, there are many other videos I prefer to make. FYI, much more information can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/corner-5/
and on VEPS-IV:
drdavebilliards.com/veps/disc-iv/
How did he get that shot to stop like that on first shot! Efrin would be impressed!
... either a sticky cushion or video editing.
Strange how no matter the approach angle to the 3rd rail if you find the 3rd rail diamond number, it goes in the pocket regardless.
It is easier to understand it this way, say you are at 4 1/2 Dimond , make no difference on which rail you are, just minus the number on the other rail, that is your aiming point, you subtract 3 from 4 1/2 and your hitting spot is 1 1/2. Say you are at the short rail and q ball is on 6 1/2 , you minus 3 and hitting spot is 3 1/2. as long the table it does not play short, if it does you make the adjustment. Say the table plays 1/2 a Diamond short or long. The best way to do it is, if it pays short you add .5 if it plays long you minus .5. Example you are at Dimond 6, 6 -s 3 = 3 if it plays short you add .5 now your contact point to the rail is 3 1/2. I f it plays long, 6 -s 3 = 3 -s 5 contact point on the other rail is 2 1/2. Hope this is more clear. Thanks George
great thanks
sir,the shot i mentioned isnt on this video,my shot only rails the cue ball hits is on only right side and and other head rail comes back down hits 8 ball in for 2 rail kick in or cue ball hits rail by 8 ball for 3 rail kick in..high right english is used...practice it... the cue ball doesnt go around the table in my shot...down and straight back.
Sorry about that. I think the shot you are describing is the classic "double the rail with sidespin" shot. I don't have a video of this shot, and I couldn't find one with a RUclips search, but it is a classic shot. It is difficult to judge the angle and sidespin required, but if you try it some, it's not that hard to figure out.
i know the shot,i practice it,i was just wondering if you did,if that comes up while game playing against a player ,i do it,the player im playing against always say why do you kick it in 1 rail,i say ill do this way,its more awesome this way.
its a difficult shot if you do it the short rail shot on head of table rather than doing the long way,ive seen people make the shot 3-4 times while playing in league pool years ago,are town all bars had big 9 foot not pay tables,i can make the shot doing it the long way,i practice uptown,we also do 4 rail, or 5th rail by the 8 ball kick in shots
@@ericou812 and what do you do when the two rail shot is blocked...smdh
I just tried the 5-3-2 rail on my table and it is not even close. My table(9fter) shoots 5-1 1/2-3 to make cue in 3 rail corner. I just tuned in so still watching and trying to wrap my brains around this.
Every table can play differently. That's why you need to practice the benchmark shot, so you can adjust relative to that.
@@DrDaveBilliards I commented before watching whole video. I see the plan,,and is a help. Ill take any info that makes sense that I can get.
And I do practice this stuff until I get the idea.
i really love your videos and i am very passionate about pool, so much so that i am considering going pro...i am very much a visual and conceptual learner, so your method of teaching and explanation suits me quite well...i would love to purchase both the VEPS and the VEPP, but i'm only a college student and i just can't afford to shell out $220 in pool training materials...so what would you recommend as the optimal starting point for me? your input would be greatly appreciated...
Susmito Rittik hopefully 6 years later you’re still playing pool and maybe even professionally. For other people with the same plight, consider $220 a cheap investment in your professional education! I had college textbooks that nearly cost that much. Whether it’s to win tournaments, go pro, hustle your friends, or just enjoy the game more, invest in dr Dave’s videos.
I bought the HAPS series. Getting pool table this week. Once I get the basic strokes and aiming down I’ll likely buy the other series. Best videos on the market!! He deserves to make a little money for putting it together.
had to watch 3 or 4 times to 'click---& wow/... i round off to nearest fraction 1/4,1/2 etc.... and adjust a little Eng. or speed in area i think needed on the fly while playing. tnx
muy buen video gracias
@randallpaulcom
If you want more help, check out the instructional articles under this topic in the "bank and kick shot" page in the FAQ section of my billiards DOT colostate DOT edu website.
Yes, but that would require you to move the CB. I don't think your opponent would allow this. :)
Unfortunately I cannot follow this system as I don't have a degree in gobbledegook. The main question is of course 'Why is the corner pocket numbered 5 in the first place?' 'Because it just is' is NOT the answer I am looking for :)
If you want to learn more, see the articles and other info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/corner-5/
The number at the corner is 5 because that is what makes the math work. This system has been around for a really long time.
Sir there are any other easy technic or method ?
Where any uneducated or math weak human
Easily play any Trickshot bank shot railshot
Without hard diamonds calculation
Yes. None of the following systems use diamonds and math:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/mirror/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/contact-point-mirror/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/mirror/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/midpoint/
this with enough practice will work well, but the side effect is it creates a tortuously slow pool player who will bore the opponent and the viewers, you know that guy, he takes FORREEVEER to shoot a simple shot, and twice as long( eternity?) to shoot a kick shot.
You are right ... some people would be very slow using this system.
However, those who practice it enough should be able to use it fairly quickly, to the point where it is not even noticeable that they are using it.
DrDaveBilliards you look like the guy from Lost, matthew fox, people will find this system more confusing than that show, hhahahahahahahhahhaha, im so clever : )
🥺
This method seems too complicated.
Search for "BU kick shot aiming" and watch the top video. You will probably like the systems in that video better.
Hindi me samjao bhai
to be honest... way too complicated and too much calculations... "2.8" and "3.5"??? and so on.... no way
+MyLabbu Some people number the diamonds with 10's instead of 1's so 2.8 and 3.5 become 28 and 35 instead.
Some people just think in fractions instead (e.g., 3 1/2 diamonds instead of 3.5, or a "touch more than 2 3/4" for 2.8).
And for the more-visual person, the "spot-on-the-wall" and mirror systems are more helpful. For more info and demonstrations, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#spot
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/banks_and_kicks.html#mirror
Dr. Dave here just being a classic engineering professor.
I didn't invent this system. I'm just presenting it as clearly as I can for those who might find it helpful. Not all people will find this type of system helpful.
DrDaveBilliards eerie
DrDaveBilliards what will happen if we increase the speed will it go to the same pocket? Have confusion
You have to be computer
You don’t need the formula or calculations when just doing shifts relative to the benchmark shot. That is a useful trick.