Machining 60 Rockwell Steel with the Tormach! WW166
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- Опубликовано: 22 авг 2024
- Let's machine annealed A2 (about 18 Rockwell C) and then let's machine a 1-2-3 block and a High Speed Steel End Mill - those are 55 to 60 Rockwell -on the Tormach PCNC 1100!
Sorry for the audio! Goof on our end with a new microphone.
End Mills:
A2 Steel End Mill: bit.ly/1EpE1WO
Hard Mill: bit.ly/2yUeGHO
Business of Machining: bit.ly/2lWdDR8 5 Reasons to Use a Fixture Plate on Your CNC Machine: bit.ly/3sNA4uH
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This is kinda funny to watch. Because as a tool maker i hard machine all the time. It is cool to watch someone learn though, and pass on the knowledge. Keep it up.
Ryan Gaudette I agree, I'm a mould maker which means I also machine hard steel from time to time! The hardest part is polishing hard steel by hand, starting with 100 grit al the wat up to 2000 and then some polishing paste for the finishing touches.
I am so happy that i just machine graphite on the mill instead.... I dont think i've hard machined since we got our sinker.
Love the new infographics at the beginning... good job!
I spent 6 months working in a Toolroom setting, and I regularly milled hardened A2 and D2 (Rc 55-60) on a Sharp knee mill. We used the Acurite Millpwr to create trochoidal toolpaths to shoulder and slot at .005" a pass. We only used carbide resharps because we didn't want to be smoking brand new cutters. It made a hell of a noise even at only a .005" doc. I don't miss those days.
That is some hot and heavy machining!
I am very impressed with that finish.
Hard materials are the bane of my existence on manual machines.
Super helpful.
The algorithm must be working well.
A couple weeks ago I crashed a 3/8" solid carbide end mill into a 1-2-3 block. There are some slight surface marks on the block, but it survived pretty much unscathed. The end mill, however... Well, let's just say I have a shiny new 3/8" solid carbide end mill.
Impressive that you can cut it like that with the right tool. Those blocks seem pretty close to indestructible.
I like your knowledge of Chip Load... and on that end mill, paying attention to the proper settings... absolutely pays off. That makes you more than average, indeed a Master Machinist. You are not guessing, but you know your stuff! Impressive!! I enjoy all that you take time to teach us... Thanks!
I'd rather be lucky than good.
This learning to use a cnc is going to take some time as a hobbyist but my neighbor knows it well luckily . Hopefully he can show me some things and I ll fix his household issues 👍
Thanks John! I actually bought 2 of these end mills months ago to modify some tooling, but I haven't yet gotten the courage to attack the project. High pucker factor as you used to say. I'm more confident now after seeing you use them to give it a try.
Thanks!
Great vid as always! I didn't check the comments to see if this was mentioned already, but a word on SFM, dry machining, and coatings... I'm sure you will realize this when you start to research the coatings more, but lower range minimum SFM recommendations could make more of a difference than you think. If the tool and chip does not reach a minimum "activation" temperature you will seriously reduce tool life in a production atmosphere. Those coatings not only provide surface lubrication, but also a harder surface on the tool and do not function until they reach a certain temperature. I have done alot of mold and stamping die work in my shop, slabs of 4140 hardened to 50Rc weighing 300 lbs with 24 hours of adaptive clearing alone. Sometimes a difference of 5 SFM is all it takes to make a tool last 1 hour or 10. Step over affects tooth engagement time, percentages are calculated, SFM increased in a linear scale, blah blah blah too much for a RUclips comment. All I'm saying is that you can and should make those chips hot enough to melt those rubber bellows right off your column, and your tool will ask for more and more. Keep at it John, your an inspiration for entrepreneurs everywhere!
So I can forget working these on my '92 vintage Haas VF-0 with it's plastic enclosure. 😐
UncleBman not at all. when your dry cutting materials you still have a coolant pump at your disposal and the chips will still pile up somewhere. I like to keep the table and enclosure flushed clean while running a longer job so the chips find they're way down and out. Sometimes, if it's just a quick pocket or slot, I will wet down any soft surfaces right before hitting the green button. A machine I sold last spring had polycarbonate replacement windows, I used thin galvanized sheet metal to make a few deflectors to keep them from melting. You could lay some down in the bottom of your enclosure also if your worried about it.
Thanks for the tip, and only for a minute
John, you still haven't corrected your spreadsheet. I mentioned the error in your previous feeds and speeds video. It is not off by much and won't make a difference with larger radial thinning, but you may run into problems when taking smaller cuts. The error is in the chip thinning formula programmed into your excel sheet. The -1 in the denominator is subtracted after taking the square root of the ratio. You are subtracting 1 then taking the square root. Hope that helps, take care
Nice!
While hard milling is beautyfull and an everyday technique, it can be so painfull ;)
Large diameter/length ratios will show you how flexible a carbide endmill can be.
Even my little Datron at work can do suprisingly good hardmilling - While we have a lot of specialised endmills for hardmilling, I use a lot of standard carbide, 3 flute, 45° flute, TiAlN coated endmills for it, up to 55...60Hrc. Above that it becoms exponentional harder to machine and more of a tooling issue.
I found machine rigidity and spindle pwoer not as much of a problem, but runout on the tool is critical...
Threading is the bitch I struggle with. Turning and milking is easy in comparison. I have to pre drill a m4 threaded hole at 3.8 or I can’t get any threads to cut, just broken taps :-(, lol.
it's great it's possible to machine hardend steel, and people think they can skip grinding or edm....
milling or turning will never get the precision of grinding or edm... but it can absolutly reduce the machine time for grinding or edm.....
Unless you make your own, most 1-2-3 blocks are only case hardened now....so it might read 60rc on the surface but they're not on the inside...I've drilled into a few over the years lmao
You save my night! Thanks!
Found it interesting that harder materials come out with a nicer finish after machining. Great vid as always man. Always learning cool things!
arvicz22 It is because is not as gummy. Harder materials strain a lot less before fracturing. You are essentially fracturing those small chips off the workpiece. The less the surface moves and deforms, the more even your cut is. You get chatter when your tool flexes and vibrates. You also get chatter if your work piece moves. You are minimizing that movement. This all assumes decent machine rigidity. A clapped out mill will have a much worse surface finish.
@@Worrsaint There is also the tendency for mild steel to tear and gall when cut? I can only get 1018 shiny with high speeds, good carbides (mill with Harvi I TE), and lots of coolant.
Awesome watching. Hope all's well!
Great video also im glad you tried it on the 440 i was waiting for that. Great video john thanks alot info learned.
I am hooked watching your videos. Great job and informative
informative video for those machinist that think milling very hard steel is impossible. I use to be one of them, today I am milling 60RC O1..
Thanks for sharing! I've been wanting to try out cutting some 4140 PHT on the 770. Now I have somewhat of a baseline
I didn't expect that. Nice job John.
Nice, thanks for sharing the knowledge. We are about to give hard milling a try for the first time, modifying a press tool. A2 Hardened to 58RC.
Awesome John, you taught me a few new things today!
ATB, Robin
My favorite is as many flutes I can with an alcrn coated end mill. SGS 7 flute 1/2” rips through tool steel like butter. I probably cut deeper than recommended but it keeps eating it up as much as I can feed it. Had one cutter I dove in at .120 and it still cut it but I did end up with a round shoulder end mill :-).
I'm a CNC programmer we cut a lot of tool steel like A D M S in all grades levels nice vid on machining.
The shank of an HSS tool bit is softer than the business end. You did measure it; but a good file will bite into the shank of an HSS drill bit just fine. Try milling an old file maybe, and make it a direct reply to one of AvE's videos?
Haha, hard M2 is nasty awful wonder shit. Especially to grind. It will eat your wrong wheel. Hard M2 is nothing for carbide. Carbide is like a honey badger. Honey badger don't care. Gorilla Mill don't care neither. Coolant or not, gorilla eats everything alive.
Did you check the HRC on the inside (i.e. the surface you machined) of the 123 block?
I would also like to know this. What's the internal hardness?
Probably around 34 HRC at most, I've never seen those things through-hardened as it serves no purpose. Case hardening and tempering I believe what is done with those, but again depends on the material used. Some tools are done from through-hardening and are usually 54 HRC, whereas case hardened would be 60 +-2 HRC.
Speculation is one thing, but I would like to see the actual measurement of the inside of this particular block.
Nicholas Lee I would also like to see the hardness of the inside of the end mill he cut into the i don't believe the center of the shank is as hard as the flutes.
I would believe it. I have seen HSS - Co 8% endmills reground from 12mm to 8mm and they cut just fine...
so you haven't ran in to a 123 block... they cut well LOL
Yep I’ve got a couple, one my face mill took a fair amount of surface down. Machines really clean most are surprised.
I love McMaster and my small business relies heavily on them - probably 2-3 orders each week. I would never buy cutting tools or materials from them though. You never know what brand you will get and I prefer a controlled supply chain on those items. I get material from a material house and I get cutting tools from proper tool suppliers with known manufacturers and specs.
Thank you
I would imagine edge life on a carbide end mill is drastically reduced on a hard mill operation. So if you can hard mill 10 parts with one mill hard but 100 parts when it is soft then maybe that would explain why it is not so popular for mass production. Also there is no guarantee that you wont still have part deformation when hard milling from relieving stresses in the hardened part so it may or may not be a benefit there.
bcbloc02 tool wear might be an issue, but the bigger issue is machining time, if you can cut unhardened at 50 thou per pass versus 3 thou per pass for hard milling, it would take a lot longer. The hard milling I've heard of is used in repair work for molds and dies. There is a place not too far from me that repairs tire molds and they do a ton of hard milling.
anonymic79 hard machining is done in a production atmosphere too. If a billet is properly stress relieved during the final heat treat it will hold tolerance very well. Hard milling also tends to leave a higher quality finish which cam remove the need for any post op grinding or polishing. It's all dependant if what is being machined and what it will be used for.
When i worked as a toolmaker.. Hardmilling and hardturning was "all in a day's work.
We'd make the parts slightly oversized when still soft, then hardmill or hardturn finish them.
When used properly, these endmills lasted quite a while.
Nowadays, when i need a special shape cutter on a lathe, like a face grooving cutter for gaskets in watch cases, i just mill those from old endmills, made from HSS, i just design the desired shape, make my CNC programs, put an old endmill in the Chuck, mill it in to shape, and put it in the lathe..
Do you think because of the minimal engagement it actually produces less overall heat then grinding ? maybe it actually makes less heat and imparts less stress on the parts ? Compared to grinding which has a great deal of surface to surface contact
Hiram Rios minimal engagement still results in the same amount of heat as a wider cut in a softer material. A very small amount of heat is generated right at the cutting edge, while a majority of it occurs just thousandths of an inch inside the cutting edge towards the gullet. The remainder is a result of burnishing, and that's all dependant on cutter geometry. The heat is a result of the friction at these surfaces and the distortion of the material as the chip rolls and forms. Harder materials are harder to shear and harder to form and curl around, this resistance to movement creates more heat. The biggest contributor to heat though is SFM of the cutting edge. In a typical HSM operation, factory recommended speeds and feeds are scientifically calculated based on the amount of time the cutter spends actually cutting metal and usually considered as %50 the diameter of the tool. If you are running HSM with a step over of %25 then you are only imparting A theoretical %25 of the total heat into the tool. Therefore you can increase the SFM of the cutting tool by a given percentage and of course the IPM to maintain proper feed per tooth. Suddenly your total material removal rates skyrocket through the roof. The tool and cut material still only see the same amount of heat. This is the basis of HSM theory. This is a much more sensitive subject in hardened material, but generally the same rules apply. Hence the broad range of recommended cutting parameters. Inevitably, machine rigidity and capabilities are the limiting factors, only the operator can know the limits. And must be experienced as well. I can mill 6061 aluminium with a .25" diameter 3 flute at 24,000 rpm and over 800 IPM on one machine I own, but due to rigidity issues cannot exceed 200 SFM on the diameter cutter in 55 Rc 4140. The same cutter in another machine can run about 750 SFM without issue. There's a whole different science to learn when you reach a certain level...
Awesome, I love your videos, especially videos about feed and speed, But some HSS endmill has a soft shank, to prevent the endmill from sliping across the collet,sometimes under 50HRC.
Ah, the joy of SolidCAM when it comes to this sort of stuff: Just tell what tool you have, what hardness your material is and hit go. No calcs, no datahsheets, just getting chips flying and fast.
That joy comes at a pretty high price!
That is ideal when every tool manufacture uses the same feeds and speeds ;-) not. You use a estimated value for a tool not a precise value. Or a college from you has made for your company special tool libraries that you use without thinking how the feeds and speeds did come to life ;-)
Every tool/manufacture have their own spec (feeds and speeds) for hardness and material.
PS. Solidcam is nice used it. But it crashes me to a lot on big molds (for example: dasboards from cars). That's why i did move over to Mastercam in Solidworks.
But for normal work 3d work, nothing can beat the price and capabilities from Fusion 360.
Coating technology has really come a long way in the last few years.
It's very slow to process steel. In out workshop depending on the type of steel we use feeding from 1 to 50 mm/min with 300-800 spindle RPM for drilling/milling and for the bigger drills RPM can drop to 50. Have some monster 50mm drills and 240mm face mills. xD
For milling look into the Kennametal Harvi I TE and a decent CAD/CAM package to make high speed toolpaths.
Hey John did you know that hard milling puts far less stress into a part than grinding does? Keep that in mind if you get into a situation where stress on a part matters.
4:15 you should have checked bottom up in 2D contour
Always excited to see a new NYC CNC video out. I've never really noticed this much before, but for some reason it kinda bugged me in this video. It sounds like there is an echo or something in the room where you record the voice overs. Nonetheless, great video as always!
If you have some of those faulty 123 blocks, with undersize clearance holes, you can use a carbide end mill to enlarge the holes so the can be bolted together like the should. I did it on a hobby grade manual mill using a cheap carbide end mill, so if I can do it anyone can..
You're probably just chewing away the burrs, so no real pressure.
@@soundspark the holes were definitely undersized, they were a cheap chinesium set bought at a club auction. Reasonably accurately ground for size and squareness and the threaded holes are ok but it seems the clearance holes were drilled tapping size if memory served
Most cheap 123 blocks are just case hardened, so it should be much softer on the inside.
Bingo, my first thought when I saw this video.
Thanks for stating that fact. Just asked my pop pop and he laughed at it
Wait. Isnt the shank of the endmill softer than the cutting end?
True, typically HSS endmills have annealed shanks, and sometimes you can see a boundary between soft and hard.
You mentioned replacing the set screw on the tool holder for the weldon flat. Can you elaborate on that?
Westley Davis tormach uses cheap set screws
You could also try machining a bearing ball :)
Would be really impressive.
Or what would happen with hardened, but not anealed steel? It's harder and more brittle.
Klaufmann they drill very easy with a carbide drill bit , I do it to make bob weights for watts type governors for scale steam engines
The physics must make since, since it looks so easy, just might really suck to do on like a bridgeport, the con verse climb thing maybe. Will the windmills genery last still only a fraction of the time as if it were a 18 HTC metal ?
When machining very hard steel (65+ HRC), is it better to use conventional milling or climb milling?
Think it might be time to bring the microphone home and start dubbing in your bedroom. Just a thought.
The editing is super awesome though. I think I remember you mentioning you farmed it out, well.. its paying off for sure.
Hello experts, do you recommend which machine for milling hard steel for a budget of 6000 dollars? THANKS
Now the question is, how do you mill the carbide?
Where do you get the aluminum block setup that holds a collet for round stock that you used to mill the end mill with? Did you make it or buy it? I have searched for one and can’t find one.
Also great videos. You have helped me a lot in cnc machining. You got me hooked on Lakeshore carbide end mills for aluminum.
Thanks!
John try that a carbide end mill to mill a carbide end mill.
Way cool video !!!
John- I may have missed it, but was there a flat on that endmill? Curious about using setscrew holders on small tools that may not have a weldon flat since they're much cheaper than collet holders.
Hi John, where did you get that hardness tester? I would love to order one!
F1LT3R I have a good pen type hardness tester Proceq Piccolo '06 if you are interested. New is around 2700$ i can part from it for 1800$. It was used maybe 9 times since '06. Job went south so it was sitting in QC for 12 years now.
I have 12 mm endmill for circular mill,so what is the rpm and feed(mm/min) to use.
how would you go about drilling a .250 Hole in 60 C to insert a dowel pin?
3/16 or so diameter 5-6 flute carbide endmill, then helical mill to depth. Small helical angle...like 1 or 2 degrees.
Holeshoot it with an EDM hole driller and wire edm it to size. Good luck helical milling in 60rc with a small cutter....doesn't work for me. I'd like to see a video of that though. Going to spend more on endmills than you would sending it out....especially if the material is thicker
@@kevink6420 cant EDM the hole. its a blind hole.
@@metalworksmachineshop i dont know the application of a blind dowel but that’s a predicament then , more so getting the actual dowel out of the hole unless its a pull dowel or permanent. I would personally drill it with a solid carbide drill just undersized and take side cuts from the inside of the drill hole with a .1875 carbide endmill....we use the x5070 series from YG and they work well for side cutting. Bottom cutting is near damn impossible to do efficiently with just about any cutter though when you’re talking 60rc unless cutter has a big ass corner radius. Just my opinion.
LOVE your channel! I personally feel like set screw holders are fine, but destiny tool recently posted a picture on Instagram advocating against them. I wonder if it's because they're focused more on larger machines and shops?
typical runout on a set-screw holder is 1-2 ten thousandths. You need clearance for the holder to let the tool in obviously. 5-6 microns is not eough to worry anyone, what's a few microns amongs friends? Its not hydraulic but ...what is with a set screw?
Is that 123 harden tool steel ? Many are case hardened .
You should show speed and feed in metric.
So I need to mill a Bolt Carrier down. I think it is like R60. I have a small mill X2 style. What would you recommend me using? One of these hard endmills? Would they cut this bolt carrier?
You not tried to turn down a carbide cutter using a CBN insert?
What's CPT mean again, chip pitch thickness?
2:43
Knock test? Can you elaborate? I don't think I've heard of that one...
Just out of curiosity, why are we destroying a perfectly good 1-2-3 block? :)
Chinese.
Because we can
*sponsored by tormach
Just to watch it die like Johnny Cash
Im looking for counter sink mill that can handle 60Hrc steel
Anealed AND Hardened???!#!?$?#%!$^#?^? HOLY SHIET that's the mother of all material that never existed and never will.
Not a cnc guy, why does the program start out of line before it starts to cut? Is it to prevent snipe like in woodworking?
The software is trying to keep the cut consistent radially, regardless of the path.
nice
USE ONLY AIR to do this with carbide!!!! OR use flood and do it like everything else, no biggie in a Mori?
make round motion untill end then plunge other side cut back and front thats how my makro look. i called 2d adaptive slotting lol
I've only ever used manual Mills and my butthole puckers every time I see someone climbing.
I climb all the time on a manual mill with power feeds and I’ve never understood the issue.
Did I detect a hesitant pause between 'metric' & 'friends'? ;)
I actually find hard material easier than soft material. Thats why im not a woodworker
hope you don't need to run a tap through it while it's hardened.
Get some pulverised HSS taps, they can tap up to 52 HRC stuff :)
You still teaching classes?
Does anyone know where I can find a list of the inbuilt parameters in Fusion 360?
Hyss You can post to dump.cps post in the post processor list and that will show all possible parameters.
You say you cannot believe it. Why not bring some more science into into? Cutter hardness, shear forces , spindle moment and so on...
How'd you deburr it? :P
diamond file? ...yeah duh.
Can you CNC magnet?
you can machine magnetic metals like magnetic iron or stainless steel (have done so before) but not something like neodymium because its a ceramic (and VERY brittle)
What happend with the audio? Your voiice sounded strange
what kind of sorcery is this