This is one of the most inspiring and enlightening sessions. Thanks! I could have not even imagined the possibility of hard machining the thread!!! John, thanks!
I'm not a machinist, and what machining I do is manual. I did not know that it was possible to thread mill without drilling a hole first in any material, much less hard steel. Awesome!
Nice video, thanks for sharing. My 2 centavos.... hi-feed mills don't require adaptive cutting strats just keep the cutter engaged in the workpiece and you'll gain quite a bit more productivity from the cutter.
Wow, that video just got better and better. I can see how the thread mill works as it has cutting edges ground on the lower surface, but it is still impressive to watch ! Nice video John and thanks for sharing.
I've done a lot of hardmilling in the past working in a toolroom.. even after all these years, it's still exciting.. Last time i did it, it was in a 60 HRc Vicem i had to make some holes 8H7 for dowel pins.. on my home built CNC with only 1 kW of power.. I used a 4 mm Endmill, and i went 12mm deep. Hardmilling is AWESOME!..
BTW the merger between Mits and Hitachi (Moldino) was probably one of the best ever on this side of the industry (hard-mill die/mold). Not that there aren't others, but these are two of the best companies in the business.
Used to hard mill a couple of jobs on a VF-2 back in the day. Saved a ton of time on the surface grinder . D2 is pretty tough and I machined plenty of that also , just not hard ..impressive.
If you can swing it look into Lawson bolts. We have a decent assortment of standard and metric in bins and it’s awesome. You can order what you want and they will ship them to you bins and all. They aren’t cheap but you won’t find a better made bolt I can guarantee you.
Have that exact model of thread mill at the shop I work. Makes perfect threads for about 20 holes like Ipadize said and will hold for up to atleast 50 if tolerance is not an issue. The cost for it though does not weigh up the benefits for us compared to drilling + regular thread mill. But in a production line it is great. One less tool and operation to worry about, saving time and money.
back in my machine shop we used to turn and mill 62 hrc tool steel for almost 20 years now, and even drill and tap thread up to M12. it's really great for accuracy and to save some maching steps/grinding process, but only if you're willing to spend the money on the tools as they're ridiculously expensive (M12 tap comes for around 150 dollars, won't last long and requires sturdy machine with special chuck for micro deviation compensation...)
While they take longer to cut and maybe need special tooling, hard materials have that advantage of leaving such nice finishes. That thread mill is impressive to watch and especially handy on jobs with a lot of tools and not many pockets!
I tried no-hole thread milling a number of years ago, but the tool was not capable of doing that material. Not even close. I did learn that it was still faster to drill first and treadmill with a conventional thread mill tool. Never really persued it after that.
Great video John. Just for your own amusement can I recommend a standard offset contour tool path with a helical feed down for the feedmills. Because the chip thinning effect is axial there's no downside to full radial engagement. I see you used an adaptive path but in this case there's really no need. I will be looking into that treadmill though. No pre-diameter operation would be a time saver for sure.
Nice John! We do a lot of hard turning, milling at my full time job. We also use carbide taps in hard steel but this might be even better. Thanks for showing. Steve
We used to threadmill everything that was hard at my old job (injection molding shop) because if a tap snapped we would have a serious problem. Threadmills usually don't snap and if they do it doesn't cause any harm to the part.
So many applications for this, very exciting. Question about the lead in chamfer. Do you chamfer mill after and risk rolling the burr or countersink/spot the chamfer pre-theadmill? Thanks again for the great content!
I'd take the rep's advice (TBD what that is) but I'd guess you'd do a hardmill chamfer afterwards. The material shears quite nicely, I doubt you'd roll a burr
Really dig your videos. I literally just started setting up lathes where I work. Although, I am looking for work elsewhere. I run roughly 6 machines and they only pay me 13$.
Haven't read all the comments below but am wondering how the chip evacuation works with the milling part of this threadmill operation. Is there a minimum thread pitch that this type of operation will work successfully at?
What is the reason for running the tool while touching it off? It seems like it would start giving inaccurate readings after the tool starts cutting into it.
Can anyone shed light on why the thread mill was designed to cut counterclockwise. Going to venture a guess that it enables a climb cut while ramping clockwise into the material due to the right hand thread? Better chip clearance or surface finish with the climb milling?
BDGRanger I think you've said it all, but to say it a different way... since there isn't a predrilled hole the tool *MUST* helix in in a -counter- (oops) clockwise direction (to follow the screw threads). That requirement would normally mean it would be doing conventional milling, but since climb milling gives better tool life and surface finish the tool is made to spin counterclockwise, which transforms the cut to climb milling.
Hirudin thanks for clearing that up. You wouldn’t typically finish the feature to size on the first pass with a tool like this would you? I assume a roughing pass then a second clean up to dial in fit?
BDGRanger This video is the first time I've seen a tool like that, so I wonder the same thing. :) I have done a little bit of thread milling, but I haven't had to do any to a high degree of accuracy. What I've done so far is I'll dial-in the first couple holes that I do and once I get something that seems to work I'll just keep using the same settings. And, personally, I DO usually do thread milling in at least two passes (some number of roughing passes and a finishing pass). I wonder if this tool has the roughing pass "built into it" (for lack of a better way to describe it). Like, since they know in what direction it'll be milling, maybe the bottom point(s) are slightly smaller (for roughing) and the top one(s) are larger to leave a good finish. I guess the cutting edges could even have different geometry (rake angle, shape) too.
Hirudin, checking out Mitsubishi-hitachi’s website I found their edt series of thread mills. They note 1 partial thread and 2 full thread cutting teeth. Looks like you were spot on! Researching tooling on a Saturday morning...l really should get outside...or into the shop ;-)
Honestly have never seen a thread mill capable of cutting on the face. Though I usually use single point thread mills because of their versatility. Now. If they make a single point TM capable of that I’m going to make someone break out their check book!
NYC CNC And don’t forget for who and where I work. “Good enough”. Is never good. And it’s never enough. To quote Dean himself. If you’re going to take a nap on a bear skin rug. Make damn sure the bear is dead.
WTAF?!? Hard milling and turning, yeah it's impressive. But plunging a thread mill straight into a workpiece? Forget the fact it's hard material, it freaking plunged in! Would that be quicker in aluminum versus drilling then thread milling? Or drilling and tapping?
I say that was maybe just surface hardened not through hardened because I didn't see any blue chips coming from the cut showing the part is indeed hard..?
shataann I believe you can right click in the tool table and an option to renumber tools will be given. (Sorry, I'm not at my computer, or else I'd check.)
Yep, that's how it works! You can also tell it which number to start on, how many to increment by, and also to remove tools which aren't in use- Say you changed your mind on using a tool and it stayed in the library for that part. You can declutter anything not assigned to an operation quickly.
Rich W I think it'll make the most sense if you start by thinking about a single-point thread mill. A single-point thread mill is somewhat similar to a t-slot cutter, except the cutting edges of a thread mill are angled down to a 60° point instead of a flat. Like a generic t-slot cutter, if you look at the cutting edges from the side, each edge will look the same. That is to say that all the points on a single-point thread mill are at the same height. So, when it's spinning and cutting into material, each point cuts into the material at the same level, which will cut a single v-shaped groove into the side of the material. If, while the tool is moving along the side of the material, you also move the tool down, only one v-shaped groove will be made, but the groove will slope downward. This tool works the same way - all the points at each level of the multu-point thread mill are at the same height and when the tool spins each level of the tool makes a single v-shaped groove. By moving the tool down while also moving in a circle, the v-shaped groove forms the helix of the threads.
thumbs up for the metric info along the video
That was a very impressive video. I had never even heard of thread milling with no predrilled hole. Very interesting.
This is one of the most inspiring and enlightening sessions. Thanks! I could have not even imagined the possibility of hard machining the thread!!! John, thanks!
I'm not a machinist, and what machining I do is manual. I did not know that it was possible to thread mill without drilling a hole first in any material, much less hard steel. Awesome!
Nice video, thanks for sharing.
My 2 centavos.... hi-feed mills don't require adaptive cutting strats just keep the cutter engaged in the workpiece and you'll gain quite a bit more productivity from the cutter.
Wow, that video just got better and better. I can see how the thread mill works as it has cutting edges ground on the lower surface, but it is still impressive to watch ! Nice video John and thanks for sharing.
I've done a lot of hardmilling in the past working in a toolroom.. even after all these years, it's still exciting.. Last time i did it, it was in a 60 HRc Vicem i had to make some holes 8H7 for dowel pins.. on my home built CNC with only 1 kW of power.. I used a 4 mm Endmill, and i went 12mm deep.
Hardmilling is AWESOME!..
BTW the merger between Mits and Hitachi (Moldino) was probably one of the best ever on this side of the industry (hard-mill die/mold). Not that there aren't others, but these are two of the best companies in the business.
With that CCW rotation - Climb, blind, thread milling to boot! Wow
That threadmill was very impressive!
Used to hard mill a couple of jobs on a VF-2 back in the day. Saved a ton of time on the surface grinder .
D2 is pretty tough and I machined plenty of that also , just not hard ..impressive.
Very cool John! Your enthusiasm is the best part of your videos.
What no test fitting a bolt in those threads?? :-)
bcbloc02 no need to because i can speak out of experience that those Tools make a perfect thread. At least the First 20 threads or so :)
Not joking: we looked around the shop for ~10 minutes. No M12 bolts - at least none that weren't already inside/part of a machine :/
That is usually how it goes at my shop I can find every size but the one I need!
If you can swing it look into Lawson bolts. We have a decent assortment of standard and metric in bins and it’s awesome. You can order what you want and they will ship them to you bins and all. They aren’t cheap but you won’t find a better made bolt I can guarantee you.
Have that exact model of thread mill at the shop I work. Makes perfect threads for about 20 holes like Ipadize said and will hold for up to atleast 50 if tolerance is not an issue.
The cost for it though does not weigh up the benefits for us compared to drilling + regular thread mill. But in a production line it is great. One less tool and operation to worry about, saving time and money.
back in my machine shop we used to turn and mill 62 hrc tool steel for almost 20 years now, and even drill and tap thread up to M12.
it's really great for accuracy and to save some maching steps/grinding process, but only if you're willing to spend the money on the tools as they're ridiculously expensive (M12 tap comes for around 150 dollars, won't last long and requires sturdy machine with special chuck for micro deviation compensation...)
Holy shit... that's what i was yelling once the thread mill plowed in blind.
That makes two of us
🤯
Ive seen thd mills that ramp down to mill the hole, then thd mill, then chamfer, but never thd mill as it’s ramping. Amazing!
Awesome tap. They just revolutionized CNC tapping.
While they take longer to cut and maybe need special tooling, hard materials have that advantage of leaving such nice finishes. That thread mill is impressive to watch and especially handy on jobs with a lot of tools and not many pockets!
Very nice! Can you tell me how many holes that will do befor the tool fails in 60rc?
Hats off, that is bloody brilliant! Automation envy for sure.
I tried no-hole thread milling a number of years ago, but the tool was not capable of doing that material. Not even close.
I did learn that it was still faster to drill first and treadmill with a conventional thread mill tool. Never really persued it after that.
I've done little hard milling and turning and the surface finish is beautiful in hardened steel :) But that thread mill was pretty awesome!
EDT Threadmill is just awesome, i use it for Inconel
mind blown on that tap dude...so cool
people who haven't worked with hardened D2 can't appreciate how impressive this is.
I know I was proud I drilled a start hole in it today now I don't feel so proud.
Great video John. Just for your own amusement can I recommend a standard offset contour tool path with a helical feed down for the feedmills. Because the chip thinning effect is axial there's no downside to full radial engagement. I see you used an adaptive path but in this case there's really no need.
I will be looking into that treadmill though. No pre-diameter operation would be a time saver for sure.
Nice John! We do a lot of hard turning, milling at my full time job. We also use carbide taps in hard steel but this might be even better. Thanks for showing.
Steve
We used to threadmill everything that was hard at my old job (injection molding shop) because if a tap snapped we would have a serious problem. Threadmills usually don't snap and if they do it doesn't cause any harm to the part.
These Mitsubishi threadmills go for a mere $240 each (at least for the 1/4-20 version).
Drill or sinker EDM and no problems :)
Amazing, just wonderfull how you guys enjoy yourselves. I,ve started with Iscar and then experimented with Mitshibushi and Seco also.
That´s new level, congrats!
That thread mill !!... 😮 just crazy
So many applications for this, very exciting. Question about the lead in chamfer. Do you chamfer mill after and risk rolling the burr or countersink/spot the chamfer pre-theadmill? Thanks again for the great content!
I'd take the rep's advice (TBD what that is) but I'd guess you'd do a hardmill chamfer afterwards. The material shears quite nicely, I doubt you'd roll a burr
I really really wanted to see a bolt fit in those holes 😆 Top class tools tho! 👌
And how many of those thread mills did you just buy?
Really dig your videos. I literally just started setting up lathes where I work. Although, I am looking for work elsewhere. I run roughly 6 machines and they only pay me 13$.
Haven't read all the comments below but am wondering how the chip evacuation works with the milling part of this threadmill operation. Is there a minimum thread pitch that this type of operation will work successfully at?
John, are you running air blast thru that thread mill?
Neat! Does the machining on pre-hardedned steel create enough heat in the part to change the hardness of the material?
No. Typical prehardened tool steels start losing hardness after a few hundred Celsius, which is not seen in the part color in the video.
wow< that thread milling is amazing!
Es increible como hizo la entrada sin orificio la rosca
Thank you Sir to share your knowledges. Have a nice day
you should have screwed in a fastener after thread-milling and showed us the fantastic fit.
What about generated heat, especially when threading? I'll bet those are some pretty nasty sharp chips!
Test the bottom of that picket you milled. It might only be hard a couple mm deep.
Andrew Delashaw
D2 full hard is a common thing. It might be less than the 62 hardness of the surface, but not by much. Probably 58 at the least.
Do you need through-tool air for that thread mill?
So the ASX 245 is basically a complete copy of the sandvik CM245?
What is the reason for running the tool while touching it off? It seems like it would start giving inaccurate readings after the tool starts cutting into it.
Daniel Napast the tool is running ccw :)
So the lowest tooth touches first
Yea that was nasty I cringed when I saw it and had to back it up to make sure it was running ccw
How many holes You can do with one tool? And how deep it is? Thx :)
what were the specs on the 3/4- 5 insert tool?I need one of those
Can anyone shed light on why the thread mill was designed to cut counterclockwise. Going to venture a guess that it enables a climb cut while ramping clockwise into the material due to the right hand thread? Better chip clearance or surface finish with the climb milling?
BDGRanger
I think you've said it all, but to say it a different way... since there isn't a predrilled hole the tool *MUST* helix in in a -counter- (oops) clockwise direction (to follow the screw threads). That requirement would normally mean it would be doing conventional milling, but since climb milling gives better tool life and surface finish the tool is made to spin counterclockwise, which transforms the cut to climb milling.
Hirudin thanks for clearing that up. You wouldn’t typically finish the feature to size on the first pass with a tool like this would you? I assume a roughing pass then a second clean up to dial in fit?
BDGRanger
This video is the first time I've seen a tool like that, so I wonder the same thing. :)
I have done a little bit of thread milling, but I haven't had to do any to a high degree of accuracy. What I've done so far is I'll dial-in the first couple holes that I do and once I get something that seems to work I'll just keep using the same settings. And, personally, I DO usually do thread milling in at least two passes (some number of roughing passes and a finishing pass).
I wonder if this tool has the roughing pass "built into it" (for lack of a better way to describe it). Like, since they know in what direction it'll be milling, maybe the bottom point(s) are slightly smaller (for roughing) and the top one(s) are larger to leave a good finish. I guess the cutting edges could even have different geometry (rake angle, shape) too.
Hirudin, checking out Mitsubishi-hitachi’s website I found their edt series of thread mills. They note 1 partial thread and 2 full thread cutting teeth. Looks like you were spot on!
Researching tooling on a Saturday morning...l really should get outside...or into the shop ;-)
Oh cool, thanks for passing that along!
Honestly have never seen a thread mill capable of cutting on the face.
Though I usually use single point thread mills because of their versatility.
Now. If they make a single point TM capable of that I’m going to make someone break out their check book!
Someday, something will be good enough for you :)
NYC CNC
The day that happens is the day I retire.
The day you accept “good enough” is the day you stop improving.
NYC CNC
And don’t forget for who and where I work.
“Good enough”. Is never good. And it’s never enough.
To quote Dean himself.
If you’re going to take a nap on a bear skin rug. Make damn sure the bear is dead.
does anyone know where can I buy that type of tool stand tightening fixture to change my bt40 tools?
Wow. Pretty cool. Thanks for sharing.
how deep is that 60 hardness ? Once you cut through the hard layer is it really difficult to do. ?
It is through the part, there is no soft spot.
What kind of hardness tester was that?
How ZDP 189 Steel? I read it has 66 HRC
How hard is the material below the surface at various depths?
MIGuy D2 is consistent hardness through the thickness within a couple of points.
Thank!
The CAT 40 Beginners Guide link doesn't work
I wonder how much that block of D2 cost?
WTAF?!? Hard milling and turning, yeah it's impressive. But plunging a thread mill straight into a workpiece? Forget the fact it's hard material, it freaking plunged in! Would that be quicker in aluminum versus drilling then thread milling? Or drilling and tapping?
Victory Rifle Rests It's helical interpolation negative in the Z axis each helix is the pitch of the thread
I say that was maybe just surface hardened not through hardened because I didn't see any blue chips coming from the cut showing the part is indeed hard..?
You only get blue chips if you are pushing your tools to the limit of uncomfortable wear all the time.
Pretty cool John
Yeah, now that was pretty neat. 👌
Might be an idea to get a half decent machine tool 1st Haas are gash
LOOKING AT PRICING ANY LINKS TO THESE THREADMILLS?
Any luck on finding these tools? If so please post. Thanks in advance.
I have to understand how that thread tool actually works !!
Magic + The Force
Your camera white balance seems off. Maybe try white balancing off a grey card or white wall.
It would help to have the tool's part numbers listed in the description. Also, is there any way fro Fusion 360 to number the tools sequencially?
shataann
I believe you can right click in the tool table and an option to renumber tools will be given. (Sorry, I'm not at my computer, or else I'd check.)
I'll update on Monday when I'm back at the shop!
Yep, that's how it works! You can also tell it which number to start on, how many to increment by, and also to remove tools which aren't in use- Say you changed your mind on using a tool and it stayed in the library for that part. You can declutter anything not assigned to an operation quickly.
Thanks, that will be helpful.
Thank you!
No coolant?
One word: Hitachi. With this treadmill you can even mill a thread into gauge blocks. ;D
Man, that thing cuts hardened steel like my Sherline cuts aluminum.
THIS
I’m surprised the Mitsubishi guy didn’t offer the miracle endmills
the moment i brake endmills on aluminum .... wtf ?
不可思议，希望看到另一个测试
Beast mode !!!
Hello, I am engaged in the manufacture of CNC machines in Russia. I want to move to another country. take me to work for myself? =)
My brain is struggling to work out how that tool is spinning and cutting a thread. :-)
Rich W
The thread pitch is ground into the cutter. By feeding it as a helical angle it cuts the correct pitch of the thread.
Rich W
I think it'll make the most sense if you start by thinking about a single-point thread mill. A single-point thread mill is somewhat similar to a t-slot cutter, except the cutting edges of a thread mill are angled down to a 60° point instead of a flat. Like a generic t-slot cutter, if you look at the cutting edges from the side, each edge will look the same. That is to say that all the points on a single-point thread mill are at the same height. So, when it's spinning and cutting into material, each point cuts into the material at the same level, which will cut a single v-shaped groove into the side of the material. If, while the tool is moving along the side of the material, you also move the tool down, only one v-shaped groove will be made, but the groove will slope downward.
This tool works the same way - all the points at each level of the multu-point thread mill are at the same height and when the tool spins each level of the tool makes a single v-shaped groove. By moving the tool down while also moving in a circle, the v-shaped groove forms the helix of the threads.
The thread mill...... M12. In hardend steel ...... what the hack 😀👍👍😨😨😨
How many kidneys for that machine?
Wow!!!
oh my...
#60RockwellD2
metric hints Hallelujah :)
Son... you're a man now... It's time to put away the kids toys (aluminum)...
hello. you are good master qualitatively do work . you can send wotsapp or mail I have a request to you . thank you
Hai toccato il tastatore a fresa attiva?.... ma sei davvero serio?
Stainless steel 316L is harder than hard material
Blah, blah, blah, HOLY SHIT LOOK AT THAT THREAD MILL!!