The points about the 5-axis being more efficient is fair and valid. Pricing the work-holding vices as though they were a consumable for the job is not really a fair comparison. You can use those vices for years and their cost is tiny compared to the overall cost of the CNC machine. The actual business-plan calculation would be how quickly the bottom-line profit associated with the higher part-efficiency of the 5-axis would take to break-even with the cost difference of buying the 5-axis vs the 3-axis machine, including any secondary costs of staff CAD/CAM training etc. To sell people 5-axis machines, you need to be clear and honest about what thus differential pay-back time is before customers will start to see an actual cost benefit.
Yeah the video never addressed the cost diff of the 2 machines nor did it address wether or not you can take that 26% time savings and turn that into a new job. I have the same reservations about the SS variants. Unless I have a machine running 24/7 with jobs booked weeks out, it doesn’t matter how fast the machine is when it spends half its time sitting idle anyway.
You probably would not bill out the costs for the vices per job but the costs are useful to know for amortization cost which could be billed, or potential non-billable replacement costs in the event one gets damaged. Having 5 vices tied up for one job means they are not available for other jobs so do you take the hit in productivity or do you add work holding (and cost). Honestly if a shop is doing well enough to consider either one of the machines in this video, they've already got the business model and work volume strongly sorted out for themselves.
I would personally pick a VF4SS with a 4th axis option and one of Jay Pierson's Rotovises. You could machine 5 sides of the part in one setup, load multiple parts in the machine at once, and you could even load stock on pallets while your machine is performing OP1. Your machine cost would be significantly lower and more versatile with its larger machining envelope.
I agree with some others that this is a great 4 axis part. The VF4 with an HRT210 and the same vises as the UMC would be a real winner here. There are lots of benefits to 5 axis, but I don't think this is the best example. I appreciate the video though!
Despite the disclaimer, this part was very carefully chosen to be 5-axis if you want op-2 to be just facing off the top hat. There are holes in all 3 axes, so you can't drill all of them with only one rotary axis. But yeah, if you happen to have a 4th-axis, op-2 is facing and profiling the mounting flange and drilling the 4 mounting holes, so it's still only 2 set ups.
5-axis is great. But you can get two VFs for one UMC. It would have been interesting to run apples to apple cost all the way to the machine. Doesn’t make sense to stop at tooling and working holding. You can probably get one of those VF with a rotary and which would change everything for a fraction of the cost.
Exactly why buy a UMC if you can buy a trunnion down the road. UMC is nice but we use trunnion in my shop. I can take it off and run longer 3axis piece and if the next job require 5axis I can setup a trunnion in less than an hour.
I dont think ANY way is outright better. Its about whats best for YOU. What works for an international setup might not work for Joe Blogs with only 2 machines...
Correct, this is also assuming you do not have any other jobs that demand the 5 axis machine. If you run a busy shop, the top machines are already busy running complex parts, and you would not consider using it for simple parts even if slightly more efficient. If you are trying to use this argument to justify putting more 5 axis machines on the floor, that is where the CFO needs to weigh capital cost and maintenance agreements vs operating cost per part, often lower capital cost will win in their mind even if the floor techs and OPPS do not agree.
Now cost compare the UMC 500 with the VF-4 with a TRT-210/TRT-310 installed. You get the same capability with the added benefit of more table space on the VF-4. The UMC-500 doesn't become competitive again until you add a pallet changer or exclusively work with parts that require the 400mm platter.
I like this video. I'm not a machinist rather an engineer but this helped me gain an understanding of what goes into making such a simple part. You make excellent arguments here and your process is transparent. This comes across as an educational video and not just a money grab promotional to sell expensive 5 axis machines.
Why not setup a bunch of modular vises for half the cost of all the big vises? We have the Saunders workholding setup. Could easily fit 6 or so of those parts on at a time (probably more on that machine) and do them in batches. Less tool changes. Cheaper vises. Cheaper soft jaws. Etc.
Great to see all the cost comparisons on the operating and tooling, where was the cost comparison on the 3 axis machine compared to the 5 axis machine? Looks like someone missed out a 6 figure sum in their maths 🤔
But why are there 5 machining operations on a 3 axis? 1. maching one side of the triangle including the trough hole (leave a step for the radii that will be finished in operation 3) 2. machining the other side of the triangle (automatically probing the part through the hole) 3. Drilling the one hole inkluding the counter bore from the top and and add the 2 little radii 4. Drilling the last 4 holes and milling the other 2 big radii If you use a reverse deburrer there shouldn't be many deburring left. And since you dont have to machine the radii line-by-line the probing in step 2 isn't any slower Sorry if my english is bad, im from Germany and don't know every technical term :D
Not sure I like the pricing calculation. Workholding cost sort of assumes the vices etc. are then what - discarded? One would assume they go back into storage for the next job. OTOH the price of the machine is not entered into the whole thing at all, which may make a difference in the operational cost.
I‘m a SMM owner / operator. Having a rather small machine I can not even imagine having so many workholding devices on my table. The last part that I’ve run required 6 operations and it really pushed me in to thinking that 4th axis is more than required. So my suggestion is that you make the same part on a 4 axis machine. If I could choose, I’d suggest a SMM with a HRT160 4th axis.
The interesting comparison would be to compare the two machines if you were a manufacturer that had to make thousands of these brackets regularly and were looking to invest in new machines and tooling and potentially employees to produce it. The difference now being investing in higher density and customized work holding for 3 axis, invest in a 4th axis solution, or stick with a 5-axis solution. I would bet with a VF4SS machine and a bunch of fixtures, you'd be cost ahead and have the ability for one operator to be pulling out, say, 3 of these every 20 minutes. Or maybe the smart move at some point is to look at a parts loader or pallet pool. There again maybe a 4th axis could do almost everything the 5th axis could, and having one or two cleanup stations on the mill is all it takes to finish the job without going full 5-axis. Lastly maybe a 5th Axis with robot ends up being the best cost for the program even at those volumes. Lastly is the downstream considerations such as accommodatingpart design updates or variations (say they make a new model that is 1" longer on one side) and needing to split production between 2-3 configurations now. And then if in 3 years the design is retired, which equipment has the best versatility down the road? I would love to see this same part revisited in a scenario where the manager of the company that ordered the 100 part run from this video came to their local HFO and said "we have a factory and need XX,000 of these per year, we want to tool up in house, what's the best strategy?" And hen address all the possible options on the table and then discuss those outlier considerations: cleaning, footprint, maintenance, etc.
So on the 3-axis you are not running 5 parts at a time? Why not take out a finished part every time you have to move a part for the next operation? Then you can go do something else for however it takes to run, like work on another machine.
Two triangles make a rectangle, so make 2 brackets per billet and split at the end. Four programs on a 3 axis machine all using standard vise jaws plus one 3 pin soft jaw to machine angle. Probably saving around 25% in material.
The problem with 5 axis is how many can you mount and make like this? You gonna make it one part at a time? Imagine how much you'd save if you properly designed a pallet or smthing for a 3 axis?
What about when you need to machine a large part that won;t fit on a UMC? Get a 5 axis add on for your VF4 and now you can do a lot more. I do a ton of work on my VF4SS with an HRT-210SS 4th axis.
@@TommiHonkonen Or better yet sign up to do something and then leave it for someone else to figure out. A 30" diameter ring will not fit inside a VF-3 no matter how much you wish it would.
Forget the setup time saving, it’s all about the walk away time. Stick a pyramid with 3 vices on and only load a few times a day. Then run 5 machines and give yourself a pay raise😁
And I know that you definitely know what you're talking about! I need to find the work to get myself up a gear, running a 26year old machine with a tiny memory and buffer means I'm stuck hovering waiting to drip feed the next program.
Great video and a good eye opener to how a more expensive machine is actually cheaper to run in the long run in terms of its average productivity and payback time. Although as a turner myself, I'd love to see a video explaining the benefits of single vs dual spindle machines.
Seems like you added alot of unnecessary steps to the 3 axis part just to shine more light on the 5 axis machine. Also the work holding part doesn't seem like a realistic comparison.
The time where you can finish a part with a press drill on the side of the machine and use a deburring tool is over. Parts have to come out finish and perfect. That's why a 5 setup for this job is adequate on a 3 axis mill.
@@yourijuteau depends on the customer. Space x? Yeah you'll have to do something comparable to the video. Some back alley customers machine part that goes inside the assembly you will be putting together in house? They're not gonna care what the part looks like as long as it functions properly and is on the inside of the assembly - you can probably knock out an op or two by leaving some untouched stock surfaces. It's still probably a 4 op part if you don't want any manual ops.
Very valid point, you DO NOT NEED 5 vices to do the job! You only need ONE to get job DONE. Simply finish 1st operation of all 100pieces then change set up to op2.. 4 extra vices should not be calculated into the work-holding cost In other words your claim of saving 1.712$ (at 15:39) running the job on 5 axis is incorrect. If you discount those extra 4 vices at 750$ each(3000$) then you can actually do the job 1.288$ cheaper after all cost on 3 axis machine(if my poor mat skills are correct) 😉
He makes it seem hard keep track of 5 work offsets. We use more than that at times. That's where a probe shines. Personally , run this job in more than one machine.
With the 3 axis version of the part did u run parts in all vises on one cycle or just swap a single individual part along all 5 vises to achieve the total job time ?
I understand this is only a Sample part. But, in this scenario I would machine 2 Triangular parts out of 1 piece of material. Not wanting to waste machining time and material making only 1 part at a time. This might help with set-up and fixtures. ( all Machined on a 3 Axis Mill ) In general it was a Good video to help showcase the capabilities of a 5 Axis Mill. I'm sure those who Need a 5 Axis Mill already know they Need a 5 axis Mill 👍
I would like to see this job ran on a VF2SS with an HRT210-HT and then compare the cost of tooling & time vs the UMC500SS as well as the cost of both machines for a comparison..
I bought V4SS with a TRT210 to get the best of both worlds. 5 axis capability when you need (I use the TRT210 on about 80% of my work) and the large table for those longer jobs.
38k US$ for TRT210 (price of a little 3axis CNC mill, compare to a little 2axis additional table)! uf, that might take few jobs to pay for itself but good solution because you can still use that big 3axis table for other jobs
I feel like the cycle time math is messed up here on the VF4. The point in having multiple vises in there should let you run all 5 stations per cycle start, which will cut down on tool change times. The math is no longer as straight forward since you need to start 4 parts and finish 4 parts without all stations loaded up, so of the 100 parts you make, you can only run all 5 stations for about 92 parts, but that's still a lot of tool changes saved. That's also hands-off time you can spend doing other things around the shop. I also agree with the others here saying its a bit of disingenuous math depreciating the cost of those vises for a single job. Also did you not add the cost of the dovetail cutter to the UMC's tooling costs? I saw the 3" shell mill and back chamfer tool, but not the dovetail cutter
Horses for courses. It so much depends on jobs. On a 3axis machine you can make anything what you can make on a 5 axis, just might take longer. But big table on a 3 axis allows you to do bigger jobs compare to usually little 5axis tables. Again if you don't have enough 5 axis requirement jobs, it's hard to justify initial extra cost of 5axis..my 2c
Hi this is Julio from Ecuador I have a Machining center with conventional machines and I want to give the best step to a CNC and the 5 axis looks the best solution. Which 5 axis model is good for me if I want produce wheels 17” for racing motorcycles?
So that's a day and $700 saved (not counting fixtures since they are reusable) on a machine that costs just about twice as much, 155k USD VS 90k USD for that 3-axis. Since an operator is still required to load/unload it, let's consider one shift per day (no lights-out work). That 5-axis would have to work about 6 months longer than the 3-axis to make up price difference of the machine. Considering that it is only about 25% faster, that's closer to two years if it was making nothing but these brackets. Of course some jobs are simpler, and some are more complex, so i guess in the end I can see benefits of both machines. What about something in-between, like a 4th axis rotator? Would be interesting to see one of those compared to the results of this video.
I think you could do that far faster and with far fewer setups using a trunnion table 4th axis system. One operation to machine the base of the bracket, and one operation to machine the rest. Rotate the part using the a axis and if necessary you could even create a fixture to rotate the part 90 degrees on the trunnion. That would decrease the setups to either 2 or 3 and you wouldn’t be wasting the money on something like a 5 axis machine. Then you could use the 5 axis for something more complicated.
Is it possible to learn the same work set-up strategy by using non-commercial hobby machines? I graduated from a Tech school but have no chance to practice on professional machines, likewise as soon as my classes were complete....the ability to use MASTERCAM to practice my newly acquired design and toolpath skills were suddenly gone. I woud like to start a small boat business since many parts are designed and fabricated with CNC.... Any suggestions?
OR.. buy two vf2ss's for the same price as a UMC500, and you will have two spindles running - the first doing ops 1,2 and 3,, the 2nd doing ops 4,5 and 6. Cycle time would then be 9 minutes on each over two VF2's compared to 13 on the UMC. the only extra you would be paying is electric and a little extra (duplicate) cutting tools
I think this is a misleading video. Show the VF4 with a high density pallet system / 4th axis tombstone and then factor in walk away time. You could leave that sucker running for 10 hours if you set it up right, night time is free time.
Hmm i’m not sure if this part is a fair part to try it on a 3 axis mill, looks more something for a 5 axis. I would suspect it would make a lot more sense to use the 3 axis for something like a mold etc.
What this video demonstrated is that 5axis and 3axis is roughly the same as far as cost. And, that Haas charges an obscene amount for a bunch of vice. What I wanted to learn was if there are parts that are not feasible to make on a 3 axis, but are feasible on the 5 axis (e.g. curved surfaces, like spherical shapes, where angle of tool to part is problematic). Maybe in next video there will be an answer.
So when you start to think about gearing on acquisition, how long until the investment starts paying back in real terms. 5 axis is cool no doubt but not every job will be 5 axis so where do you start with your due diligence and what monte carlo analysis do you employ
this was great to see from a pricing standpoint I learned a lot I'm still confined to my sharp 24 12 VMC with a 4 axis and would love a 5 axis if my space and wallet could accommodate. would like to see the master cam or fusion 360 tool path programming for 3 and 5 axis just because this video is making the claim that 5 axis is just as easy to program ( I'm already sold on 5 axis ) thanks for the video!
You skipped one tiny detail- price difference between 3 and 5 axis machine. How many brackets would you have to make on 5 axis machine just to break even?
Nice video as a owner I have think about these things all the time 3 axis or 5 axis along with running a shop, employes. i would not add the work holding we buy that stuff with a new machine it lasts forever .
Serious question. As a 3 axis machinist that does all my own programming for 1 off parts, I never prove a program before running. We just can't afford to run everything twice. Do all 5 axis operators dry run every program or do you also just have to have confidence in the CAM software?
me before watching: 5 or course thats a stupid question because you need to get on more than one side of the part nerds: actually there are no stupid questions me: there are but they say no because they want to make you feel good also me: proper tools, you press green for go and be done with it. my boss when buying machines: but they cost money me: or you could try to get a better driver than me me after watching the video: exactly what i said for haas going full decked umc is not expensive compared to fiddle around with 3 or 4 axis setups. Proper is always better than fiddle. With anything.
I cut a lot of stuff from plate. Whenever it looks like I have some waste on the plate that will allow it, I drop in a soft jaw model that I’ve already done the cam for that uses tools that are always in the mill. For a few min of run time I get a free soft jaw or 2.
love this video and everything it shows, defiantly going to show this to my boss, my one question is why program the 5 axis shell mill to mill towards the vise when cleaning up the back of the short side on the bracket, wouldn't programing it to sweep across the y axis be safer?
vise work is a tough sell between 3 and 5 axis machines. start making fixtures for parts that do not fit in a vise and there is no comparison, less fixturing in a 5.
That UMC-500SS cost 165K. Who bills $80 an hour for 5 Axis work? more like $175.00. I could run that part in 2 ops in about 14-15 minutes , on a VF2SS with a HRT210 that cost 80K for $80 per hour
So... Let's assume this is for, what, one week of work? About five days? That means you need a few years to pay off the difference between a 3 axis and a 5 axis? What about a 4th axis comparison? That sounds like a better bet.
Not sure I agree with the numbers. First off you could have done that job with 3 vises max. Including the cost of the vises on the job also makes no sense. If you assume you already have vises available. If you include the vises as startup on the 3 axis you need to include the CAD/CAM software in the 5th axis machine. As well as the fee for the program posting software which is very expensive. Other issues exist as well but it's not a very good comparison. Seems like a sales pitch geared towards financing departments with no clue how to machine.
Yes, but make the cheapskates understand that they want you to finish a part like this in 1.5 hours, on a 3-axis, saddleless machine and a single press. Because it is made of aluminum and that is why the machine cuts it right away. They don't consider anything they say in the video and if you tell them they get angry. Because according to costs and time should be saved. As if the machine was going to do everything by itself (Now with a 5-axis machine, go figure! No, put your hands up!) It's all a debate but very good video.
Without the life time portfolio of the parts to be machined such a comparizon is not correct. Suppose, you have only this one part and very large amount of simple 3D requiring parts...
Part of the problem I’ve seen as a machinist is what I like to call "coolness creep". It’s where engineers get all excited about making super fancy parts in CAD that could just be spot welded sheet metal parts. It’s just as important to ask why your company is designing 5 axis parts as it is to ask how they will be made.
Now if Haas would only develop a Cad Cam software specifically for their machines that was affordable and good!! They would sell a lot more 5 axis machines
6:28 yes first test run propably only correct but what if boss sell that part 146? lol you need do all those before faster so make some profit or there is no price its just how fast machine cut thats cost for boss xD there is no tool cost calculated if not have tool then make part tool that have
That is much interesting and informative video But on the other side i would like say Machinist job is hard to find if you make this type of video The number of job for machinist deceased down..
5axis should win,, but there is alot to save in workholding cost if you only use one vise in the VF-4SS. You still have the loading, but you run all parts OP1, then all OP2, and so on. Downside is that someone needs so stand aside changing parts. But there would be a more honest comparasion, who I think the 5ax would still win. Then we come to what the machine-cost is. But thats another story. This movie was made to sell 5axis machines. Not take times.
Holy cow 3 axis arent even comparable. 5 operations ! insane. one or 2 ops in the 5 axis and way lesss touching the part, programming, soft jaws and set ups
The points about the 5-axis being more efficient is fair and valid.
Pricing the work-holding vices as though they were a consumable for the job is not really a fair comparison. You can use those vices for years and their cost is tiny compared to the overall cost of the CNC machine.
The actual business-plan calculation would be how quickly the bottom-line profit associated with the higher part-efficiency of the 5-axis would take to break-even with the cost difference of buying the 5-axis vs the 3-axis machine, including any secondary costs of staff CAD/CAM training etc.
To sell people 5-axis machines, you need to be clear and honest about what thus differential pay-back time is before customers will start to see an actual cost benefit.
Yeah the video never addressed the cost diff of the 2 machines nor did it address wether or not you can take that 26% time savings and turn that into a new job. I have the same reservations about the SS variants. Unless I have a machine running 24/7 with jobs booked weeks out, it doesn’t matter how fast the machine is when it spends half its time sitting idle anyway.
Yeah, unfair comparison. Too many missing variables. I don't see any mention of cost of ownership.
Wait! Am I not meant to buy a new vice for every job?
You probably would not bill out the costs for the vices per job but the costs are useful to know for amortization cost which could be billed, or potential non-billable replacement costs in the event one gets damaged. Having 5 vices tied up for one job means they are not available for other jobs so do you take the hit in productivity or do you add work holding (and cost). Honestly if a shop is doing well enough to consider either one of the machines in this video, they've already got the business model and work volume strongly sorted out for themselves.
Agreed you can get at least two 3axis machine for the cost of one 5axis
Now you can run two contracts at the same time
I would personally pick a VF4SS with a 4th axis option and one of Jay Pierson's Rotovises. You could machine 5 sides of the part in one setup, load multiple parts in the machine at once, and you could even load stock on pallets while your machine is performing OP1. Your machine cost would be significantly lower and more versatile with its larger machining envelope.
how can you machine 5 sides on a 4 axis machine?
I agree with some others that this is a great 4 axis part. The VF4 with an HRT210 and the same vises as the UMC would be a real winner here. There are lots of benefits to 5 axis, but I don't think this is the best example.
I appreciate the video though!
Despite the disclaimer, this part was very carefully chosen to be 5-axis if you want op-2 to be just facing off the top hat. There are holes in all 3 axes, so you can't drill all of them with only one rotary axis. But yeah, if you happen to have a 4th-axis, op-2 is facing and profiling the mounting flange and drilling the 4 mounting holes, so it's still only 2 set ups.
5-axis is great. But you can get two VFs for one UMC. It would have been interesting to run apples to apple cost all the way to the machine. Doesn’t make sense to stop at tooling and working holding.
You can probably get one of those VF with a rotary and which would change everything for a fraction of the cost.
Exactly why buy a UMC if you can buy a trunnion down the road. UMC is nice but we use trunnion in my shop. I can take it off and run longer 3axis piece and if the next job require 5axis I can setup a trunnion in less than an hour.
Not to mention how you wouldn’t even have to add a 2nd operator to the additional 3 axis mill.
For that simple part, the best decision is 4 axis machine. 5 axis machine deserves more complicated parts.
Not true at all. 3+2 setup are 90% of the 5 axis machine.
I dont think ANY way is outright better. Its about whats best for YOU. What works for an international setup might not work for Joe Blogs with only 2 machines...
@@yourijuteau 5-axis simultaneous for the Insta likes, 3+2 for the money 🙂
Correct, this is also assuming you do not have any other jobs that demand the 5 axis machine.
If you run a busy shop, the top machines are already busy running complex parts, and you would not consider using it for simple parts even if slightly more efficient.
If you are trying to use this argument to justify putting more 5 axis machines on the floor, that is where the CFO needs to weigh capital cost and maintenance agreements vs operating cost per part, often lower capital cost will win in their mind even if the floor techs and OPPS do not agree.
@@grafixbyjorj 😂😂😂
Now cost compare the UMC 500 with the VF-4 with a TRT-210/TRT-310 installed. You get the same capability with the added benefit of more table space on the VF-4. The UMC-500 doesn't become competitive again until you add a pallet changer or exclusively work with parts that require the 400mm platter.
until you run out of z axis travel using a 4th axis option installed on larger work offsets
They all have their added benefits
I like this video. I'm not a machinist rather an engineer but this helped me gain an understanding of what goes into making such a simple part. You make excellent arguments here and your process is transparent. This comes across as an educational video and not just a money grab promotional to sell expensive 5 axis machines.
Why not setup a bunch of modular vises for half the cost of all the big vises? We have the Saunders workholding setup. Could easily fit 6 or so of those parts on at a time (probably more on that machine) and do them in batches. Less tool changes. Cheaper vises. Cheaper soft jaws. Etc.
Great to see all the cost comparisons on the operating and tooling, where was the cost comparison on the 3 axis machine compared to the 5 axis machine? Looks like someone missed out a 6 figure sum in their maths 🤔
But why are there 5 machining operations on a 3 axis?
1. maching one side of the triangle including the trough hole (leave a step for the radii that will be finished in operation 3)
2. machining the other side of the triangle (automatically probing the part through the hole)
3. Drilling the one hole inkluding the counter bore from the top and and add the 2 little radii
4. Drilling the last 4 holes and milling the other 2 big radii
If you use a reverse deburrer there shouldn't be many deburring left. And since you dont have to machine the radii line-by-line the probing in
step 2 isn't any slower
Sorry if my english is bad, im from Germany and don't know every technical term :D
Not sure I like the pricing calculation. Workholding cost sort of assumes the vices etc. are then what - discarded? One would assume they go back into storage for the next job. OTOH the price of the machine is not entered into the whole thing at all, which may make a difference in the operational cost.
I‘m a SMM owner / operator. Having a rather small machine I can not even imagine having so many workholding devices on my table. The last part that I’ve run required 6 operations and it really pushed me in to thinking that 4th axis is more than required.
So my suggestion is that you make the same part on a 4 axis machine. If I could choose, I’d suggest a SMM with a HRT160 4th axis.
What is the cost comparison with the two machines?
you forgot to include the pre op for the umc aka cutting the dovetail opps that actually 3 operations and 3 setups
Also forgot to add the cost of the additional CAM software to prevent the 5 axis collision
The interesting comparison would be to compare the two machines if you were a manufacturer that had to make thousands of these brackets regularly and were looking to invest in new machines and tooling and potentially employees to produce it. The difference now being investing in higher density and customized work holding for 3 axis, invest in a 4th axis solution, or stick with a 5-axis solution. I would bet with a VF4SS machine and a bunch of fixtures, you'd be cost ahead and have the ability for one operator to be pulling out, say, 3 of these every 20 minutes. Or maybe the smart move at some point is to look at a parts loader or pallet pool. There again maybe a 4th axis could do almost everything the 5th axis could, and having one or two cleanup stations on the mill is all it takes to finish the job without going full 5-axis. Lastly maybe a 5th Axis with robot ends up being the best cost for the program even at those volumes.
Lastly is the downstream considerations such as accommodatingpart design updates or variations (say they make a new model that is 1" longer on one side) and needing to split production between 2-3 configurations now. And then if in 3 years the design is retired, which equipment has the best versatility down the road?
I would love to see this same part revisited in a scenario where the manager of the company that ordered the 100 part run from this video came to their local HFO and said "we have a factory and need XX,000 of these per year, we want to tool up in house, what's the best strategy?" And hen address all the possible options on the table and then discuss those outlier considerations: cleaning, footprint, maintenance, etc.
So on the 3-axis you are not running 5 parts at a time? Why not take out a finished part every time you have to move a part for the next operation? Then you can go do something else for however it takes to run, like work on another machine.
Two triangles make a rectangle, so make 2 brackets per billet and split at the end. Four programs on a 3 axis machine all using standard vise jaws plus one 3 pin soft jaw to machine angle. Probably saving around 25% in material.
From Kenya 🇰🇪 I love it never looked at it in that angle above all am obsessed with the 5 axis machine I absolutely love it with to own one
The problem with 5 axis is how many can you mount and make like this? You gonna make it one part at a time? Imagine how much you'd save if you properly designed a pallet or smthing for a 3 axis?
What about when you need to machine a large part that won;t fit on a UMC? Get a 5 axis add on for your VF4 and now you can do a lot more. I do a ton of work on my VF4SS with an HRT-210SS 4th axis.
Valid. Sadly we can't have all the toys!
Get the VF6SS and the 500mm 5axis turntable
OR you would not even quote a part that dont fit your machine in the first place.
@@TommiHonkonen LOL okay goldilocks 🤣
@@TommiHonkonen Or better yet sign up to do something and then leave it for someone else to figure out. A 30" diameter ring will not fit inside a VF-3 no matter how much you wish it would.
Forget the setup time saving, it’s all about the walk away time. Stick a pyramid with 3 vices on and only load a few times a day.
Then run 5 machines and give yourself a pay raise😁
And I know that you definitely know what you're talking about!
I need to find the work to get myself up a gear, running a 26year old machine with a tiny memory and buffer means I'm stuck hovering waiting to drip feed the next program.
Great video and a good eye opener to how a more expensive machine is actually cheaper to run in the long run in terms of its average productivity and payback time.
Although as a turner myself, I'd love to see a video explaining the benefits of single vs dual spindle machines.
Seems like you added alot of unnecessary steps to the 3 axis part just to shine more light on the 5 axis machine. Also the work holding part doesn't seem like a realistic comparison.
I agree. A programmer that makes a five operation part out of this one should be looking for a new job
The time where you can finish a part with a press drill on the side of the machine and use a deburring tool is over. Parts have to come out finish and perfect. That's why a 5 setup for this job is adequate on a 3 axis mill.
It had holes/features on five different angles. How else can you do it with the 3 axis more efficiently? Aside from Angle head and rotary table add on
@@yourijuteau depends on the customer. Space x? Yeah you'll have to do something comparable to the video. Some back alley customers machine part that goes inside the assembly you will be putting together in house? They're not gonna care what the part looks like as long as it functions properly and is on the inside of the assembly - you can probably knock out an op or two by leaving some untouched stock surfaces. It's still probably a 4 op part if you don't want any manual ops.
Disagree, how else do you add features on five different sides?
This was fun to watch and very helpful. Please post more videos like this.
Too bad the vices are not reusable... Someone should make some reusable ones, seems like a great opportunity !
It is quite unfair to depreciate out a vice in one part… unless that’s all the longer they last
Very valid point, you DO NOT NEED 5 vices to do the job! You only need ONE to get job DONE.
Simply finish 1st operation of all 100pieces then change set up to op2..
4 extra vices should not be calculated into the work-holding cost
In other words your claim of saving 1.712$ (at 15:39) running the job on 5 axis is incorrect.
If you discount those extra 4 vices at 750$ each(3000$) then you can actually do the job 1.288$ cheaper after all cost on 3 axis machine(if my poor mat skills are correct) 😉
@@lukasvymetal2665you failed to include shop rate, your math is wrong.
@@lukasvymetal2665doing an operation through, then doing the next, etc will cost a ton of extra time due to travel and toolchanges.
He makes it seem hard keep track of 5 work offsets. We use more than that at times. That's where a probe shines. Personally , run this job in more than one machine.
With the 3 axis version of the part did u run parts in all vises on one cycle or just swap a single individual part along all 5 vises to achieve the total job time ?
I am very please by the reality and honesty of this analysis. Good job. Very good job.
I understand this is only a Sample part.
But, in this scenario I would machine 2 Triangular parts out of 1 piece of material.
Not wanting to waste machining time and material making only 1 part at a time.
This might help with set-up and fixtures.
( all Machined on a 3 Axis Mill )
In general it was a Good video to help showcase the capabilities of a 5 Axis Mill.
I'm sure those who Need a 5 Axis Mill already know they Need a 5 axis Mill 👍
Wouldn’t a better comparison be between 3,4, and 5 axis machining set ups?
I would like to see this job ran on a VF2SS with an HRT210-HT and then compare the cost of tooling & time vs the UMC500SS as well as the cost of both machines for a comparison..
Interesting to see how you approach the machining process in different ways 👍🙂
I would love to see more of this type of videos
I bought V4SS with a TRT210 to get the best of both worlds. 5 axis capability when you need (I use the TRT210 on about 80% of my work) and the large table for those longer jobs.
38k US$ for TRT210 (price of a little 3axis CNC mill, compare to a little 2axis additional table)! uf, that might take few jobs to pay for itself but good solution because you can still use that big 3axis table for other jobs
I feel like the cycle time math is messed up here on the VF4. The point in having multiple vises in there should let you run all 5 stations per cycle start, which will cut down on tool change times. The math is no longer as straight forward since you need to start 4 parts and finish 4 parts without all stations loaded up, so of the 100 parts you make, you can only run all 5 stations for about 92 parts, but that's still a lot of tool changes saved. That's also hands-off time you can spend doing other things around the shop.
I also agree with the others here saying its a bit of disingenuous math depreciating the cost of those vises for a single job.
Also did you not add the cost of the dovetail cutter to the UMC's tooling costs? I saw the 3" shell mill and back chamfer tool, but not the dovetail cutter
Horses for courses.
It so much depends on jobs.
On a 3axis machine you can make anything what you can make on a 5 axis, just might take longer.
But big table on a 3 axis allows you to do bigger jobs compare to usually little 5axis tables.
Again if you don't have enough 5 axis requirement jobs, it's hard to justify initial extra cost of 5axis..my 2c
Hi this is Julio from Ecuador I have a Machining center with conventional machines and I want to give the best step to a CNC and the 5 axis looks the best solution. Which 5 axis model is good for me if I want produce wheels 17” for racing motorcycles?
You're turning a lot of material into chips by not saw cutting the blanks into a triangle .
So that's a day and $700 saved (not counting fixtures since they are reusable) on a machine that costs just about twice as much, 155k USD VS 90k USD for that 3-axis. Since an operator is still required to load/unload it, let's consider one shift per day (no lights-out work). That 5-axis would have to work about 6 months longer than the 3-axis to make up price difference of the machine. Considering that it is only about 25% faster, that's closer to two years if it was making nothing but these brackets. Of course some jobs are simpler, and some are more complex, so i guess in the end I can see benefits of both machines.
What about something in-between, like a 4th axis rotator? Would be interesting to see one of those compared to the results of this video.
I think you could do that far faster and with far fewer setups using a trunnion table 4th axis system. One operation to machine the base of the bracket, and one operation to machine the rest. Rotate the part using the a axis and if necessary you could even create a fixture to rotate the part 90 degrees on the trunnion. That would decrease the setups to either 2 or 3 and you wouldn’t be wasting the money on something like a 5 axis machine. Then you could use the 5 axis for something more complicated.
Is it possible to learn the same work set-up strategy by using non-commercial hobby machines? I graduated from a Tech school but have no chance to practice on professional machines, likewise as soon as my classes were complete....the ability to use MASTERCAM to practice my newly acquired design and toolpath skills were suddenly gone. I woud like to start a small boat business since many parts are designed and fabricated with CNC.... Any suggestions?
Get a job and save up.
OR.. buy two vf2ss's for the same price as a UMC500, and you will have two spindles running - the first doing ops 1,2 and 3,, the 2nd doing ops 4,5 and 6.
Cycle time would then be 9 minutes on each over two VF2's compared to 13 on the UMC.
the only extra you would be paying is electric and a little extra (duplicate) cutting tools
but you also add redundancy, reliability, resilance
I think this is a misleading video. Show the VF4 with a high density pallet system / 4th axis tombstone and then factor in walk away time. You could leave that sucker running for 10 hours if you set it up right, night time is free time.
If you have the quality to do high density.
I can't see charging the same hourly rate for a machine that costs more than double.
5 axis for prototypes, 3/4 axis for production. :)
Okay video, but where’s Mark Terryberry? Love to see more of him. Thanks!
Hmm i’m not sure if this part is a fair part to try it on a 3 axis mill, looks more something for a 5 axis. I would suspect it would make a lot more sense to use the 3 axis for something like a mold etc.
would like to see compared to a 4th axis also great video
What this video demonstrated is that 5axis and 3axis is roughly the same as far as cost. And, that Haas charges an obscene amount for a bunch of vice.
What I wanted to learn was if there are parts that are not feasible to make on a 3 axis, but are feasible on the 5 axis (e.g. curved surfaces, like spherical shapes, where angle of tool to part is problematic). Maybe in next video there will be an answer.
so a machine with a gripper to flip the metal part and place it in the vise, would be smart?
Please make more videos like this , its very valuable tool and i am enjoy watching very much, thanks
Where is the waste bin for those 3 vises?
Investment in workholding is not a running cost.
So when you start to think about gearing on acquisition, how long until the investment starts paying back in real terms. 5 axis is cool no doubt but not every job will be 5 axis so where do you start with your due diligence and what monte carlo analysis do you employ
Maintenance cost for 5 axis vs 3axis, plus mastercam seat that includes 5 axis machining were curiously not included in these prices.
Excellent example as of apple to apple comparison, but my question is how much more expensive the 5 Axis versus 3 Axis VMC is,,,,
this was great to see from a pricing standpoint I learned a lot I'm still confined to my sharp 24 12 VMC with a 4 axis and would love a 5 axis if my space and wallet could accommodate. would like to see the master cam or fusion 360 tool path programming for 3 and 5 axis just because this video is making the claim that 5 axis is just as easy to program ( I'm already sold on 5 axis ) thanks for the video!
You skipped one tiny detail- price difference between 3 and 5 axis machine.
How many brackets would you have to make on 5 axis machine just to break even?
Have seen many videos on RUclips 3axis,4axis,5axis.
Make a video on 4+1 axis that how can we run 4axis simultaneously while 1axis is stop
Nice video as a owner I have think about these things all the time 3 axis or 5 axis along with running a shop, employes.
i would not add the work holding we buy that stuff with a new machine it lasts forever .
What’s the difference between 3 axis and 5 axis Mastercam Mastercam package per year?
Serious question. As a 3 axis machinist that does all my own programming for 1 off parts, I never prove a program before running. We just can't afford to run everything twice. Do all 5 axis operators dry run every program or do you also just have to have confidence in the CAM software?
No, you are just a savage.
@@santiagokof for not dry running a program i am only going to run once then delete? How do I dry run a 30 hour weekend runner?
Dry run...gimme a break.
@@wildcatmahone-md6me thats why I ask... even as an apprentice, the concept of dry runs in a 1 off environment sounded crazy to me.
me before watching: 5 or course thats a stupid question because you need to get on more than one side of the part
nerds: actually there are no stupid questions
me: there are but they say no because they want to make you feel good
also me: proper tools, you press green for go and be done with it.
my boss when buying machines: but they cost money
me: or you could try to get a better driver than me
me after watching the video: exactly what i said
for haas going full decked umc is not expensive compared to fiddle around with 3 or 4 axis setups. Proper is always better than fiddle. With anything.
I cut a lot of stuff from plate. Whenever it looks like I have some waste on the plate that will allow it, I drop in a soft jaw model that I’ve already done the cam for that uses tools that are always in the mill. For a few min of run time I get a free soft jaw or 2.
love this video and everything it shows, defiantly going to show this to my boss, my one question is why program the 5 axis shell mill to mill towards the vise when cleaning up the back of the short side on the bracket, wouldn't programing it to sweep across the y axis be safer?
Thank you!
but I think we need to add somehow de price difference between de 3 axis and the 5 axis machine
Very nice video, but I also expected you to include the maintances and amortisation cost of each machine so it would be more meaningful comparison.
what shop charges the same for 5 axis work? only 80 bucks an hour? some cheap labor here
"Hey everybody, John Nelson with Haas Automation here, and today I've got this aluminum bracket part to make." John, buddy, you're already holding it.
Wants 5axis machine program
how about lathe?
does sub-spindle can do this too? or save more time?
Your video is really useful. I was wondering if you could use a sensor or an accelerometer
vise work is a tough sell between 3 and 5 axis machines. start making fixtures for parts that do not fit in a vise and there is no comparison, less fixturing in a 5.
That UMC-500SS cost 165K. Who bills $80 an hour for 5 Axis work? more like $175.00.
I could run that part in 2 ops in about 14-15 minutes , on a VF2SS with a HRT210 that cost 80K for $80 per hour
why dont Haas machines have potentiometers for feedoverride? Pushing buttons only is kinda dumb imo
What is the background music?
Oh. I already asked this question 3 months ago.
Sees Me In The Past asking about the intro background music name and getting a reply:
😃
The reply is 3 Months In The Past Me:
😦
Me's In The Past, I've found it (with the help of AHA Music)!!!
WALK, by TAYME if anyone else was wondering.
That endmill was twice as long as it needed to be lol
So... Let's assume this is for, what, one week of work? About five days?
That means you need a few years to pay off the difference between a 3 axis and a 5 axis?
What about a 4th axis comparison? That sounds like a better bet.
Not sure I agree with the numbers. First off you could have done that job with 3 vises max. Including the cost of the vises on the job also makes no sense. If you assume you already have vises available. If you include the vises as startup on the 3 axis you need to include the CAD/CAM software in the 5th axis machine. As well as the fee for the program posting software which is very expensive. Other issues exist as well but it's not a very good comparison. Seems like a sales pitch geared towards financing departments with no clue how to machine.
why not just buy one vice and make the jigs for the different axis?
Yes, but make the cheapskates understand that they want you to finish a part like this in 1.5 hours, on a 3-axis, saddleless machine and a single press. Because it is made of aluminum and that is why the machine cuts it right away.
They don't consider anything they say in the video and if you tell them they get angry.
Because according to costs and time should be saved.
As if the machine was going to do everything by itself (Now with a 5-axis machine, go figure! No, put your hands up!)
It's all a debate but very good video.
Where does someone find this 80/hr shop pay at???
That part is 2 ops on a 3+1 axis mill. Op1 4 sides on the rotary and Op 2 in a vise on it's side. Done! FIVE vises and setups...come on man.
If you set up 5 vices, use them. Run program 1 to 5 once the vices are full. 🤷♂️
Without the life time portfolio of the parts to be machined such a comparizon is not correct. Suppose, you have only this one part and very large amount of simple 3D requiring parts...
Part of the problem I’ve seen as a machinist is what I like to call "coolness creep". It’s where engineers get all excited about making super fancy parts in CAD that could just be spot welded sheet metal parts. It’s just as important to ask why your company is designing 5 axis parts as it is to ask how they will be made.
How much tool overhang affect?
Now if Haas would only develop a Cad Cam software specifically for their machines that was affordable and good!!
They would sell a lot more 5 axis machines
Why don't you finish the part complete in one set-up.
7:16 all time you invest making good setup. some one who just know "green button" throw parts
1 установ на 5 осях, 2 установ на 3 осях. подготовка перед первым установом тоже на 3 осях . я выбираю комбинированный способ
Why not cut the square into two triangles?
Never even seen a 5 axis in person lol
6:28 yes first test run propably only correct but what if boss sell that part 146? lol you need do all those before faster so make some profit or there is no price its just how fast machine cut thats cost for boss xD
there is no tool cost calculated if not have tool then make part tool that have
3-axis🥀🥰
That is much interesting and informative video
But on the other side i would like say
Machinist job is hard to find if you make this type of video The number of job for machinist deceased down..
16:19 5 axis cost allmost 50% more i mean 100% 2x
Awesome video
Loved the video.
5axis should win,, but there is alot to save in workholding cost if you only use one vise in the VF-4SS. You still have the loading, but you run all parts OP1, then all OP2, and so on.
Downside is that someone needs so stand aside changing parts. But there would be a more honest comparasion, who I think the 5ax would still win.
Then we come to what the machine-cost is.
But thats another story. This movie was made to sell 5axis machines. Not take times.
Holy cow 3 axis arent even comparable. 5 operations ! insane. one or 2 ops in the 5 axis and way lesss touching the part, programming, soft jaws and set ups