Baeclast #61 Chris Wilson on Item Philosophy
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Chris Wilson the Managing Director of Grinding Gear Games joins the cast to take a deep dive into item design philosophy in Path of Exile and the ARPG genre.
This covers everything from the actual item bases that drop in PoE, to the mods they can roll, how they can be modified through crafting, the importance of RNG in crafting and the loot reworks that will come in PoE2. Chris also let slip some new information on the development and timeline of PoE2 alongside it's possible beta structure.
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#PoE #Harvest #Baeclast
What two statements said on this episode do you agree and disagree with the most?
Removing beoynd when there are leagues such as torment present , agree with chaos recipe tabs being over the line.
Your hair statement is pretty good
@@dregnstik Beyond is 100x more engaging than Torment.
I disagreed with how he viewed the powerful crafting as something that caused the low retention in the first few weeks. Many things about harvest were... bad the first week, and things like having to set up your garden and a massively lower number of seeds are big reasons that affected player retention and have nothing to do with the crafting being too strong.
Not neccesarily a statement, but more of a broad approach that leaves both cons and pro's. It's the idea about how "they" are right and "we" are wrong mentality seems to cascade throughout the conversation. While yeah, generally speaking it's great that they hold to their own standards and morals to how the game should play. It also seems like they are rather stubborn in admitting that their way might not be correct. Granted, this is a very difficult thing to do as it's a major business and they HAVE to be comfortable and confident about their own decision making. But it's just a double edged sword that if they take too long to take back some of the old design flaws, that it might hurt them more then sticking to them.
Love the prep-talk, when trying to fix the audio levels.
Tarke: "Chris, would you mind moving your mic a bit closer to you?"
Chris: "It's a laptop mic, I guess I will move Chris a bit closer instead."
"We kill the item drops, we kill the game, in days..." - Chris Wilson 2020
Hey, 2020 Chris, you might wanna have a chat with 2022 Chris
we kill item drops, we kill the game... You just did exactly that, chris... RIP poe kalandra lake.
I'd like to suggest something. Whenever Chris shows up for an episode, please bring a guest that actually plays trade leagues and will be able to speak for the majority of players. A lot of Baeclast episode i feel like its a SSF circle jerk, im sorry for the expression, and when it comes to talk about economy no one there has enough property to do so. Bring people that deals with it everyday every league, EmpyrianGaming, Cutedog, PathofMatth, Mathil, Somayd, BalorMage, Ghazzytv... Nugi's point of view, for example, always disregards anything outside ssf spectrum because he doesnt play it, doesnt know it and doesnt care about it. Trade league's are the most appealing not because you play with friend, because no one does that, its because there is an economy so we needed on this specific episode someone that knows deeply and well the present state and impact of harvest crafting on TRADE leagues. I love the podcast but this time it gave me a bitter taste of a missed opportunity to direct to Chris a realistic point of view from someone that plays what 85%+ of players do. Love you Tarke
Ziggy and Octavian play trade SC.
@@Jackulus123 Last time i checked, Ziggy was on a private league and Octavian was on SSF. But maybe they started on trade, idk
This 1000%. This discussion is imo completely disconnected from the largest part of the player base.
Trade league is a worse experience than SSF for anyone who spends a significant amount of time ingame. I'd be quite happy for more SSF-friendly stuff to be introduced. Maybe a vendor that sells scrolls, scraps, and augs for chaos at a terrible ratio for trade league.
Having to deal with other players is fucking awful.
@@Asdayasman That's your opinion, not an objective fact. I play trade league because I like freedom and accessibility with regard to creating wild and wacky builds. This aspect of the game is severely limited in SSF and HC leagues. I'm not knocking anybody who likes these game modes, but those people are fundamentally playing the game for a different reason than trade league players. For me, personally, It's not like I couldn't play SSF if I wanted to, but the gimmick doesn't appeal to me and that's okay. SSF exists as an option for people who want that experience, but it's odd when people imply that it's objectively better than trade league for so-and-so reasons.
I really appreciate that the boss of the company can sit down and have a two hour chat with the community about itemization.
I get the sense chris did all this and built this game and company so he can hire someone competent to run the show and leave him be in peace to play his dream game
Customisation is all this game is about and this podcast is one of the most direct channels to a significant percentage of their customers. Every hour on the show makes them lets say 250.000 thousand dollar extra. When you look at it like that, it seems rather obvious for Chris to participate.
@@Habib_Osman Chris ain't in it for the money.
Youre joking, right?
51:58 and he foretells the prophecy of destruction.
I love seeing this thought process that Chris and GGG puts in to the game, even if we don't go agree with some of their decisions. I also really appreciate him taking the time to talk to you guys (and the community) about topics like this.
Wow chris looks like he lost alot of weight
Yeah I noticed to
@@262fabi i was about to comment that, its a massive twitching
A bit of a late comment, but in a recent AMA he said he lost 31 kilos (and in reality likely more because his training involved weightlifting so some of that had to come back as muscles).
The problem of this discussion is that you're taking advice from a group of people who literally play the game as their job. I admit that I go pretty hard on each new league but I still have limited time and energy due to other commitments. Harvest crafting is literally the first time I've dedicated any serious time to crafting because the chances of actually making something myself are decent and it's the first time I'm going to go for metacrafting as soon as I get of my current Factorio binge and go back to my slammer character. I have an axe with pretty perfect prefixes and completely useless suffixes and am actually excited about the opportunity to fix that.
Agreed. The working, average gaming enthusiast can't spend PoE as their day job. I loved this league because its been such a blessing. Now we have a tangible goal for a better item through harvest seeds.
This crit keeps hitting the podcast and the dev and isn't really heard or gets brushed off or gaslit about. It's pretty clear this game wants dolphins and whales with lots of free time and lucre to spend and doesn't really care about workers.
The fact u know u get insane items by doing almost nothing this league is incredibly demotivating and make me hardly not care about it all.
I don't play this as my job (I don't even exclusively play this game, I divide my gaming time between multiple games).
Yet I was able to acquire basically the best gear I could ever hope for in the 2nd week. This league killed all character progression to a point that I rerolled to an stupidly expensive build just so I can actually play something that isn't ready for A8 Sirus with 0 effort. As someone who doesn't play this full time you shouldn't be going for the top .01% item, that doesn't make sense and as chris said it's not even needed to do anything in the game.
This league I've sold the least amount of rares out of all the leagues I've played, I basically had to turn off rares in my filter WAY earlier than I would ever do that because they're all worthless when harvest can get you near perfect or perfect items for nothing. Is the crafting mechanic cool? Yes but it destroyed the game's economy.
@@TheRealGoldenExperience Yup. When calamtious jewels are going for 14 exhalt per and are required to play a herald build... what sort of game is this.
3.19 prophecy 🤯
who is here from the 2022 gang
52:41 "we kill the item drops, we kill the game, in days" -- RIP poe, always remembered, never forgotten, 2013 - 2022, you died so young ;(
"We kill the item drops, we kill the game, in days"
I think that Harvest crafting has been a blast. Its still expensive/ time consuming for most players to craft these items but finally possible. I agree with Nugi that the customization has allowed for more builds
I like the face Chris made when he realized you cannot search "Boots" to filter boots in stash search filter. Such oh shit moment :D
Yeah, it feels like a tag for item slots is pretty basic considering you've got tags on every skill and every mod in the game.
Love this. Chris is awesome for coming on the show and doing this.
Damn, Ziggy always asking the good questions: "What do you mean by hard when you say that crafting needs to be hard?"
And Chris answered with a lot of words that boiled down to "more RNG"
@@allbluedream A lot of words that explain why more RNG is needed.
@@MarkoLomovic People hear random without ever thinking how the randomness is applied. And you'd be hard pressed to find other, satisfying ways to make things harder that doesn't involve randomness.
The more people complain about aspects of Path of Exile the more I think they just want to play a different game and not Path of Exile.
I think challenging is the better word. Hard expresses difficulty. Whereas challenging describes a hurdles you have to overcome.
@@dicemm5544 True. People don't realize how important these are for the longevity, and how much player knowledge effects this as well.
We've seen how much deterministic crafting devalue's these aspects of the game from Diablo 3, and somewhat harvest league even.
People were excited about Free Augment crafts in Harvest until a few weeks later they realized how much easier it made the game.
Now it's considered pretty game breaking, and disliked amongst the majority I would say. Except for the players that only invest a few days into a league, and just want instant outcome.
But those aren't the players you want to target, you want to target an audience that wants to stick around.
Agree: SSF feels really good this league, I like actually being able to upgrade by just playing the game.
I disagree... uniques are still stupidly hard to get. You can't still target farm most of the contents (because you can't trade for prophecies/scarabs/maps), getting lab enchants is a joke and other issues with SSF.
Sure crafting is WAY better in SSF but it's not like that was the only issue with SSF in this game.
@@rosco3 obviously SSF is not for you, it's that simple
@@rosco3 Ssf is definitely not the league if you're into min-maxing a character in the short-term ... That's called trade League
@@boblogiii8869 Never said anything about min maxing... there are some builds you simply can't make in SSF because they require uniques, and even if you are into playing a build that doesn't require (or that the required unique is target farmable) there are still issues with SSF.
I can in trade buy scarabs to target farm X content, you can't do that in SSF, splinters in SSF are mostly useless unless you play a shit ton to actually get all of them yourself.
@@rosco3 Thats literally the point of SSF. if you drop some unique that could be 5c in trade league but is build defining you get way more excited in SSF cause now you have the option of playing that build, also if you are playing SSF im assuming the person has some game knowledge and will actually use betrayal, you do not need trade to get the scarabs that you want just put some effort in the getting the right members in Intervention. To gather splinters takes almost no time at all if you are actually mapping so i dont really get that point at all.
I heavily disagree with Tarke. While having the ability to create very strong (and very build-specific) items does make it so that you only go through few replacement cycles, it nevertheless ENCOURAGES people to play more builds. Whereas once you were locked from builds you would otherwise not play due to gearing constraints, Harvest enables you to gear for nearly any build possible. I on average play 3 characters per league; I am currently on my 5th and still have plans and desires to make many more. Harvest incentivizes build diversity.
it's much easier to rework the shit skills then to craft GG items to make them good.
Problems comes when u have played all the builds u want and then comes an new league and there´s only one new build u want to try. And after 4 days u have it so strong it can do the new stuff. And then u get bored. Maybe you don´t gonna have that problem but if 50% of the playerbase gets it , we gonna have an empty league after a few of days /weeks.
I think allot off players gets blind that there is only the end content and the good loot that are "fun". But in my mind when u get your character to do the endgame content it gets boring realy quick. I don´t get the desire to get there. So after all these years off playing i have started to enjoy the struggles and the journey way more. But it depends allot what persona u have and how competitive u are. anyway its an hard topic. and i guess in reality only GGG knows the stats how many players are doing what over X amount off time.. as always the players that does´t have any problems are silent and the "angry" are making the threads and comments.
I don't fully agree with Tarke, but I think in general he's trending to the right point.
I think the point is we need to take longer to get to good/reasonably geared characters. D3 is example of what's BAD about gearing too quickly. IMHO D3 leagues starts are still fun ... for 24 hours, until you are in 90% gear and then only after that it's incremental gains.
PoE is starting to become "pretty geared" in hours, rather than days - and that is a bad thing.
PoE has then HUGE benefit over D3 because of the notional limitless number of builds (at least for season, non-one can plan all different builds). D3 has so few builds which is why it's kind of the worst of the worst for that.
But if for PoE - I don't want to gear 10 characters a league - I rather have 3-5 to gear, but be able to take 1-2 weeks to get those characters to a good state.
You could play 5 or more builds before just not with mirror tier items on every slot. I usually play 2/3 Builds every league trying to min/max them as much as possible, and this league only reason i played this far was to complete the challenges becouse there is literally no reassonable upgrades i can make anymore in my final build. i feel like some type of deterministic crafting might be good, just not as powerfull as it currently is.
totally, last league ssf got an insane vaal regalia 6l, expanded other items upon that and used for everybuild life/mom based in existence, recycling good pieces tru toon feels so good.
I like how Chris talks about changing drop rates over time. He has been ninja nerfing humility drops for a while now.
come take a look at 2022 , things going crazy lake of kalandra
@@Pizzaguy2 This aged well xD
1:04:10 Nugi will remember that.
Oh damn he straight up rolled his eyes.
Too many times Tarke or Raiz talk over the others ..
There was a moment where Tarke let Nugi speak before him so I think they are even. Rolling eyes tho xD
A failure to learn from your mistakes.. You're failing tarke
@@lancemurray6216 It might be an issue of their connection
Yo Chris looks like he lost a lot of weight. Props to him for that hard work I know it takes!
Have you seen the post about the workstations at home? Chris pic was a treadmill in the garden
Yea he's lookin trim these days. Good on him!
A bit of a late comment, but in a recent AMA he said he lost 31 kilos (and in reality likely more because his training involved weightlifting so some of that had to come back as muscles).
ZiggyD hype at Chris saying PoE 2 is going to be the best ARPG ever was a feel good moment. Big thank you to Chris for taking this time.
do you have a timestamp?
This is like billionaires argueing how easy it is to make a million nowadays.
Exactly what I thought.
People who have poured thousands of hours into a game should be rewarded for it.
@@zacpeterson4841 They have. They got to play a game they enjoyed for thousands of hours. Or does your sense of entitlement extend beyond this?
@@mrtoothless Also they get to do it as their job and gain from it financially after the fact that the game is supposed to be fun as a base reward and nothing more.
Gaming gods is more appropriate.
Raiz: You should drop less stuff but better stuff
Chris 30min eariler: We are going to drop less stuff but better stuff
It's even worse. Chris didn't just mention it once, they actively talked about it for like 15 minutes.
@@markosz22 Didn't Chris have to explain how they are basically changing the entire quality system in maps and how it's still unfinished, then Raiz asking a question about making that into an item that modifies a map, people not completely understanding it then Chris having to repeat himself and clarify that they want that to be game wide and not just an item.
@@dicemm5544 Yeah Raiz was specifically talking about making the change optional for the player, rather than permanent game-wide change. People above you in this thread are 3Head.
I just want to say, I've played since Breach and there hasn't been a single league that makes me enjoy crafting as much as this league. I've always been the type where, farm currency and buy the item with stats I need and only started crafting when fossils came out. This league has been very fun and made me play more of a SSF style which never happened before.
Chris looks so much healthier now. Good on him.
Losing weight doesn't necessarily means something good for your health. I really hope he's not overworking or stressing too much with all the 2020 / new zealand / 4.0 situation. Things like this can shorten someone's lifespan by a lot.
The biggest impact of Harvest, and the primary thing that everyone seems to agree on is that it makes harvesting accessible. I get the feeling that Chris doesn't think that we need to improve the crafting system (ease of access, not necessarily functionality), and that's kind of disheartening.
When Chris wasnt aware about being unable to just search Boots. I'm so happy that this will be looked into further.
Wow, it's Chris Wilson form Grinding Gear Games PogU
Tarke,
Thanks for the great episode and everyone's continued work to make the show enjoyable! I look forward to every episode you guys release. One point of feedback for an episode like this involving a guest. I think it would help to have some sort of system that keeps track of people wanting to make specific points as they come up so that they don't forget or aren't looked over. There were multiple times when it looked like someone had any interesting question or point, but it got put off and then was never returned to. Maybe some sort of live doc could be kept via google docs during the show where someone could write in their point, or a reminder of one, so that it could be circled back to.
Krugir a very good idea
We have a system like this people just don't use it very often lol. I'll make a point to raise the functionality again though cheers.
Chris invoking the slippery slope fallacy tilts me to no end
you guys totally forget with your opinions, that they all come from full time paid for playing streamers. 99% of players are not farming 10 hours a day, to say after, oh that was to easy.
My opinion on the quality of loot vs crafting is that sure a really god roll item that drop is super fun but what i still enjoy is having some medium gear that i can then craft with some form of ease to make it a good item. Crafting a god like item should be as rare/hard has having a really good rng for the loot drop. The biggest problem currently of the dropped loot isn't that all loot is really bad, it's the fact that almost no item is worth keeping/improving with crafting.
Harvest crafting has helped me see a lot more crafting that i would normally do because i usually get so few good crafting currency.
What Harvest does really well too is make you keep items because they have potential instead of just keeping the good ones and scraping everything else. Keeping items because you want to either improve it to better sell it, or improve it for a 2nd build is what makes Harvest so enjoyable.
Oh boy this aged like milk
Good thing we had Ziggy and Octavian this time around for this one, I cringed so much at Raiz' contribution basically just repeating what Chris said 20 minutes earlier.
He very seldom adds anything useful
Well this aged poorly
Damn Chris, lookin fit as a fiddle. Keep up the good work you madlad.
Goodbye poe/poe2 , we miss you. I hope you had a better manager.
He doesn't know how crafting works but wants to change crafting right now based on his vision... a vision from 2015. Good call
Ziggy's comment to Chris when it comes to the importance of items it's spot on. The only rare items that show on my filter are veiled ones.
Also I hope folks appreciate Chris for doing content like this and don't give him too much crap on it. The amount of other games I've played where devs don't talk to the playerbase at all, or are very cagey about things they know are very important to the playerbase, is staggering. But the man talks through their thought processes so much even knowing it could cost them in future.
1:34:41 Thanks for bringing the search function up as a compromise here. What you suggest would already go a long way for me. The search is already pretty good, but sometimes it's not powerful enough in its options.
Harvest league is good, in one seriously important area. It is a step ladder for people who never crafted before, because it's just too much to learn 5 external sites and apps and what else, to actually craft something worth while. There is a HUGE open space between not crafting and crafting top tier.
And you know, spamming alterations for hours to get the rolls you want. That's what drives me away from crafting the most
@@SeekNeo alteration spam is still important for some items to get mods you can't harvest craft like Mana and attributes
39:54 i have to disagree here (personally). im one of those players who normaly dont craft bc i think its to complex.
i normaly run maps and engage with league mechanics to farm currency and buy my stuff.
its just that feeling when even if you watch tutorials on crafting you think "holy shit what? i have to do this and this and this and if im lucky and my stuff dont break i MAYBE get something decent.
for me it makes no diffrence if i find/craft and item or buy it. If i farmed a few days or whatevr for my exalts to buy my 6L im just as happy as when i found it.
And while Chris says that that is hollow as feeling to a player, he still wants that to be in the game for people.
So I play SSF specifically because of how much I disagree with this. I don't think buying your items is nearly as much fun as finding/crafting it yourself. Lion's Roar is a 5c piece of shit in trade, but dropping it in SSF feels AMAZING. I honestly don't think anything about trade feels nearly as good as playing the game.
I think there are people who love to craft, and figure out all the complexities .. and those who don't. I agree, I'm on the side of "craft to augment .. only when required" side of the fence.
@@a_pet_rock yeah and thats what SSF is for but i think in trade league it should be the players decission if he wants to engage with crafting. for example: i have a few h each day if im lucky, sometimes only the weekend. i dont want and cant spend hours on crafting theory.
I actually find it way more interesting and rewarding to farm for my item for 5h then to spend in total 2h to craft it. I basically play to kill mobs and bosses, couldn't care less about random/semi-random rolling an item. An item for me is just a mean to do the content I enjoy.
That being said harvest kind of ruined it for me when instead of farming for hours to buy my gear I could just get it for next to nothing even before I reached red maps.
Chris is an incredible MD! His care for the community and his passion for POE is incredible - this is one of the biggest reasons I continue to support GGG
Whoa, fully animated Chris Wilson action. Nice patch!
Just my thoughts on items/crafting/poe in general, when I watched the stream:
- less, but more impactful loot to make mapping and organizing smoother
- with less loot, random mods on them should be better too. not speaking of the max values ofc
- unique mods should not be craftable, at least not the very good ones, that come with a drawback of not so good other mods on the unique. looking at you, exploding chests
- target farming shouldn't be exclusive on endgame bosses. divination cards are alright, but I wish item target farming on map bosses was a thing
- some kind of ingame crafting tutorial or guide for a better understanding of what is possible with which crafting method. I can understand the people who make their money with their understanding of efficient crafting, but just speaking from my perspective: there has been so much stuff added in the past, and I feel completely overwhelmed nowadays, even though i've been playing since open beta. I would love if we could go a step back sometimes instead of making it more complex every few months.
- merge some of the currency/shard tabs. i don't care if i spent money in the past to buy each of them. with more different league currency, less tabs means more quality of life, and qol is why I paid for them
If someone read all of that, thank you for taking your time
Having dropped items have mods that you can’t craft is an idea I really like. But they need to combine that with the general quality of items going up.
Aye, combat mods on a combat weapon would be a nice start, and if you want to make a hipster item from a strange base, so be it, but naturally dropped gear should be very specifically flavored, more so than they are already are.
There can't really be an in game crafting guide because what is efficient depends entirely on market. The crafting meta shifts almost every league, what was profitable back then might not be profitable now. What they could do is provide more information on rolls, what can be achieved on what, what are the possibilities and odds but the method they can't really teach.
Good job chris.
52:00
Wow....
The crafting is the only reson why i played this league ive gotten to play 2-3 builds already im getting to experience things i wouldn't usually get to ofcourse that makes things more casual for the people who play 300+ hours a league but for somone who plays ssf its great now im not advocating for a easier experience but i like the extended crafting
but i think something you guys missed on the panel was the person who doesnt play 8 hours a day 4-7 days a week. POE is highly complex i like the complex crafting and the complexity in general and would like them to tone back the crafting but a majority of players will never see end game one due to the PHD in POE wiki that is almost required to make a build and 2 the amount of hours required to earn currency. So in that light the easier to obtain items helps more people experience an end game
i guess to conclude keep parts of havest IMO fuck off the seeds the t1 crafts are obsurdly powerful so tone that back so as you said it dont remove the risk but can still guarantee something nice or make targetd anuls extremely rare not sure excatly just dont take away my more advanced crafting =(
This aged well.
Ziggy is our main/lead QA...👍...ball buster for few.
That was a really good episode, I enjoyed the heck out of it. Thank you Chris, you are awesome
"it's going to have a Blizzard level of polish". Chris hasn't seen Blizzard recently has he xD
He generally feels out of touch the past year or so.
No no no, he has. He's going to be right.
Still have to hand it to the poe community. Very proud to be a part of it.
"What is retention like if you can craft good items? not great." This is so objectively wrong in every way that is scares me about the future. I've played more in Ritual than any other league, BECAUSE OF HARVEST.
True, it feels real nice being able to set a tangible goal for gear upgrades and work towards them over time. Contrary to farming orbs and buying gear or god forbid actually be fooled into identifying floor trash for weeks and still not get any upgrades after entering maps.
PoE needs more deterministic RNG, that's what harvest proves.
All the bloat would be solved if it was by choice.
So you could target farm a mechanic by choice instead of chance in maps.
They just need something similar to Legacy League ....where you can "attune" your character to something like 3 league types at any given time. So as you are going through campaign / maps / etc. you get some semblance of determination of what you want to enjoy. They don't want to do Flashback leagues anymore, but they don't understand why people enjoyed them and keep asking for them; this would solve that issue instantly.
Zana currency dumps for league content is a terrible system ..and it always leads to players either being happy and/or angry at the same time depending on which ones are in rotation; and then there are those of us who hate the idea of spending a bunch of chaos just to experience them. She needs a revamp desperately, something that fundamentally alters how each map behaves / bonuses you get ..rather than giving you access to a handful of leagues. Something like "better odds at div cards", "better odds at maps / map curencies", "Higher quantity of league / master specific collectables" , etc..
The masters revamp was a well received positive change to encountering them, leagues could do a very similar thing for accessing them rather than it being just a "10% chance". Make it so that when you complete maps, you get a chance for one charge of "____ League" that you can select when opening a map, just like masters.
non deterministic crafting rng is what it takes to make an item valuable, so ye if we would get more crafts / a craft rework like harvest it would be just another casual game aka diablo
not beeing able to influence ur rolls, to some degree, is what gives the joy of crafting
52:30 so cw, whats that about item drops and killing the game?
Good call with focusing on one topic imo. Especially the early open discussion about ARPGs, item systems, design philosophies etc. in general. It was super interesting to hear his stance on various big design direction PoE could possibly go towards as Chris does apparently play a major role when it comes to the general direction the game will go in from what he explained. Later it got a bit more Q&A-ish. Definitely my fav dev episode.
Hi Yoji. I hope you're having a good day.
I league started SSF HC for the first time, made it to level 90 before ripping and after a couple more rips on rerolls I decided I didn't have it in me to stick it out in HC. But I realized quickly how awesome it felt to have the constant sense of progression and the new Harvest mechanic to get me access to powerful upgrades more easily. So instead of migrating to HC trade, I've been playing SSF the entire league.
It's been a blast. It's much more rewarding to me, like finding a Sire of Shards to roll a cremation archmage necro, and finding a Shavronne's Wrappings to now play multiple builds with, it adds something more to the experience I didn't know I wanted. Greater sense of accomplishment, no pressure to trade, no interruptions in gameplay, just a direct focus on crafting, finding upgrades, and just playing the endgame to see what happens. Definitely planning on sticking to SSF game modes for the near future.
For those that haven't seen this discussion: ruclips.net/video/FpIB2dMzNu8/видео.html
I've time stamped it to start when the chaos recipe stash tab gets brought up.
For the chaos recipe stash tab there are a few things that I'd like to point out.
Just a few minutes prior Chris mentioned changing around the way item searching happens would be a change that you see talked about in the video, the patch notes, but not in game. Thereby reducing the number of people who actually benefit...because it becomes hidden knowledge. I'd extend that logic to the chaos recipe. Sure the chaos recipe is something talked about quite often but it's not explained anywhere in-game. It's ability to pull players out of poverty in trade leagues is pretty powerful and truly is a bit of secret knowledge.
Having a stash tab dedicated to the chaos recipe would do two very important things. First, have an in-game reference to the recipe itself. Even if you don't buy the tab you're at least organically aware of the recipe. Secondly it prevents running back and forth from the vendor to your stash because you only have 1 weapon or one of your rings isn't rare, ect. If we're fine with pay for organization, remove the "Sell Recipe" button idea and just have it sort the items for me so I can cleanly ctrl+click them into my inventory. Hell - just make it look like the normal character panel and have each slot store x items (x2 for rings and weapons).
That's not crossing the line in my opinion but is totally something I'd spend money on.
chris mentioning how "players are doing so much cool stuff"
yes, the top 0.1% of players who are sinking 10 exalts into their "i might use it" items are doing that cool stuff
for the average player crafting before harvest was LITRALY just "i found this item with 2-3 decent mods il bench craft 1 more"
crafting isnt a thing the vast majority of the playerbase does because you need to be one of those play for 5 hours a day 20 maps an hour people to even have the currency to START let alone actually make anything good
in the entirety of delerium league i accumulated the currency to make maybe 1 of the "cool trick" item crafts that people are doing
hell even tarkes "budget" chaos bows cost like 3-4 exalts to make minimum, and thats if you already have the bench crafts for it unlocked
as a casual-semi serious player (i have killed sirus, red elder shaper and pushed to maybe 300 depth, im no way a SERIOUS player but even with just that im still probably in the top 30% of players in maps) i can honestly say rare items are one of the least interesting and worst designed things in PoE
gregsmw yeah, it’s like they’re basing their core itemisation concept/balance on an extremely small percent of players. That’s just all around bad game design.
I really like Harvest crafting, and like others have said, it is the first time I've had a chance to actually try crafting stuff myself. I don't play (efficiently) enough to have enough currency to just "waste"/slam an item with for instance exalted orbs. I'd love for the Harvest mechanic to go core to some extend.
I think the Harvest is awesome, if you put some time into it more cost effective for you to try to craft your own gear instead simply go to trade page and get w/e you want
The solution to that chaos recipe tab thing is to just give quad tabs, or hell any tab, a "sort by type" functionality. Similar to Grim Dawn's.
All of a sudden this video is being recommended to me again ... for some reason.
The talk about Standard being "an illusion"*, a 'Trick' to make people care for 'the future' of their items, is a very interresting one. It's undeniably true, but it's also weird. I haven't logged a Standard Character since Legacy League (other than sometimes moving currency to my main stash), but that's definitely still a driving force for my gearing
*! What are you hiding...
I use standard only when I had a character I really love
the game now is about crafting, the same mistake in diablo 3 everbody makes auction house and not playing the game
Lol are u dumb. Harvest crafting is nothing like diablo crafting.
My takeaway... POE 2 is 2 years away at least.... I cried a little.
TL/DR: Chris is living in the 90's and sees many of POE's problems as 'good things' in his crazy ass mind... OK... I guess nothing will ever change in POE then...
bruno silva to much wanting to make diablo 2
I would buy that chaos recipe tab in a heartbeat. Paying for convenience in this game is, in my opinion, how they make money. You're not getting overpowered by buying this tab, you still have to play the game, farm the items, etc. However, my wrist and fingers and hand altogether will feel so much better. Also, I am incredibly happy to know Chris is trying to reduce the clutter/items on the screen. That is literally the thing that frustrates me the most in terms of item drops and item pickup. Just give me less items, but make them worth picking up. Even if you identify them and they suck, you can still chaos recipe them. Hope they implement and perfect that system.
I am not particularly happy with Octavian's stance that more readily accessible "good" items is a hole in the game. "why make the perfect explodey chest when you can harvest craft one thats good enough".
I look at that and run into the same roadblock that kills my drive to craft every league. that "perfect" explodey chest costs dozens of exalts to make. Exalts i often do not have. The RNG with the pre harvest crafting system is so huge that it makes hardcore crafting into a rich-man's game. Not everyone has the free time to get to maps 5 hours into a league and make insane profit on every piece of trash that drops. Harvest, for all of its bumbling faults, opens up these amazing crafting options to the lower tier player and lets them experience some of the cool crap we only see streamers do in prior leagues.
Agreed. Harvest is something that really helps close the gap with the top 1% of the playerbase that can play all day long and treat it as a day job.
Yep, it's a stance that just reeks of privilege more than anything. Baeclast has some good takes but you inevitably run into the takes that could only come from people who stream for a living.
Only if you are willing to fill up your brain with all the affix-shit.
Game is dead for casuals in terms of unlocking better game options nowadays.
I hope GGG will feel this in their pockets, these stupids.
1:38:00 Regarding an in-tab button to vendor the chaos recipe: My first thought is it crosses the line partly because of how "hefty" items are supposed to feel, but another thought that came to mind is "How would I feel if I specifically chose which ones I vendor this time around?" I think I'd be more alright with that, which probably means my issue with the "chaos recipe tab" is it could automatically choose which items to vendor. I want to keep that choice.
I love the minute period starting at 34:30 where Chris starts talking about noobs finding mirrors and Raiz thinking about it
Quantity converting into better rares instead of more rares would also nerf chaos recipe bots.
It would be so great if you could put audio version on podcast platform like spotify, so ppl can listen to it in gym or driving.
so after nine days, I've finally watched the podcast until 1:35:50 and I have realized that we have never even talked about being able to use Regular Expressions to search through tabs... We have a lot of search forms, but none of them supporst regular expressions which almost makes me furious. it would make things so much easier to find and/or filter... edit: what makes me the most furious is being able to look for ilvl: x if he ilvl is excact, but you can't say >= or
Balance around SSF - let trade be the insane stuff.
9 circles of hell league would be cool. Like Dantes Inferno.
why should developers care about meta crafting of the top 0.1 percent ?
I doubt that game retention has anything to do with medium tier level acquisition.
I just dont seem to understand why increasing the top .1% to the top 5 or 10% of players crafting good items is such a bad thing. The average working gaming enthusiast now has a tangible goal for getting that next power boost through harvest seeds.
@@TheRealGoldenExperience Because the average person doesn't have the kind of money a free to play dev is looking for, frankly. They'll never admit it, but this game (or any f2p really) isn't aimed at all towards the average joe.
Love the way chris shares and keeps things close to his chest, possibly you could have the ui/stash changes outside of the 3.11-3.12 window. Lile they could be on another dev cycle all together
Also didnt he say "bloom?" What is that ?
I wish they made a ssf-private-league mode that would allow you to just keep harvest for future leagues if it gets removed.
i honestly think harvest would be fine if it just allowed you to craft on at most t3 mods, aside from the stuff that only removes something from an item.
And here we are in 2021 with excieting exalt slamming
100% on Chris side here. Thank god he calls the shots and not whiney casual babies like in other games. Keep up the good work GGG!
I’m a bit late to this but honestly I have not played as much Poe recently because I am to excited for the new skill system in Poe 2, and when I play Poe 1 I get frustrated at a certain point having to get the perfect links on my armor for one of my skills to work well or feel good, just to replace the armor and go through the hair pulling of redoing all your links and colors of your sockets. The new system for the skills will make Poe more compelling for me to play.
It sucks to hear that Chris really doesnt play PoE yet is the one making the decisions on core features. He needs to let someone else make some development decisions.
We really need that auto identify items and auto-classify our stuff into respective tabs we purchased.
I think about the portal/wisdom scrolls ggg could make 2 independant slots in inventory, that are specific for those 2 scrolls that do not interact with regular inventory, it would have obv a limit how much they can stack, but that could be upgraded through campaign( for example- 10 w/p throughout act1 and +10 each act through quest). So at the end of campaign youd have 100 w/p scroll place apart from inventory+ you could make mini icons for both without opening inventory, so while running zones you could ID or open portal without opening inventory.
For searching for items they could add a key word for each tab. Ex if your searching for fragments then you could enter " tab:fragments" and it would filter all the fragments and you could one tab for all of the different tabs
Chris Wilson is so awesome, love the game, love supporting GGG.
also I'm very surprised that when the hypothetical chaos recipe stash tab idea came up, no one discussed the larger implications the system, and the quantity of loot has on botting and how that significantly inflated the trade economy. especially if u want pick-ups to feel valuable. etc etc like its a huge point of discussion and i feel bad that it wasn't really highlighted because im sure plenty of the devs have to think about this as well on top of everything else. i remember a reddit idea or a youtube video idea about staggering the vendor recipes. increase the chaos recipe to ilv gear that would be more valuable and expected when you actually get it. make ilv 70-80 gear be usable for chaos recipe only. that way it pushes the issues into white, yellow and maybe red maps. when you're actually going to care about chaos. then add alchemy recipes where the chaos used to be for like 60-70 so people that are just starting maps can roll they're maps easier or upgrade certain better lv bases they get as they go. ofc there's the idea of making regal recipe even higher level or removing it, but im not smart enough to try to think the solution for that yet. tho i do love me some regals more than chaos most times, especially for its power when CRAFTING those higher-level ilv82+ bases into usable endgame gear. its hard. no one is going to agree, but its a much better system in the long run when they push forward addressing other things like item quantity vs power or w/e. food for thought and id love to see it. i think it would only negatively affect the bots themselves and ofc some ssf functionality but not as much as we might think.
BUT business is business and i extreemly respect Chris and his work behind the scenes on his business optimization so that we CAN reach poe2 eventually. ill still buy a supporter pack when i can. its cool, just want whatever we can get to make the game feel less bloated and more empowering
"I wonder if we should've itemized that."
22:44 "Tiered currency items" *screams in stash tabs*
Thank you Chris and GGG for all your work on PoE!
SFF feels great this league. I feel like the problem is that any good build can clear most content with "decent" gear. And decent gear is SUPER easy to make with harvest. Killed A8 Sirus with VD DD Spellslinger with nothing special at all. Would have been doable in previous leagues, was so easy with harvest. Spam Fire aug on a warlord amulet, and you have leech and +1 skills. Spam fire on a wand for high added fire dmg, anything else is superfluous. Sure, I couldn't do T19 100% delirious, or crazy deep delve. But that is always quite specialized.
I really think annuls and targeted exalts should be the focus moving forward with LOOT2.0
Balance it out so the stuff you drop is a 7(with the heavily weighted against chance for it to be 8/9/10) but if you want to have 8/9/10/11 gear you have to use crafting on the dropped items.
Make it so the items you drop are more likely to have good setups for further crafting while still being completely usable for, let's say, t1-t5 maps
Edit 1: Incursion temple sharing? Make it so you can save your temple as a blueprint and sell it like a map item ( with all the rooms as mods) i know, another currency type item but it could be fun.
Maybe also make it so you have to pay something to create the blueprint so you can add a currency sink of your choosing l.
Edit 2 : Fuck portal scrolls. We don't need that shit anymore. Fuck portal scrolls.
Edit 3 : Great podcast again!! Everyone was amazing, amazing questions and amazing answers all around.
Chris is such a genuine guy. Love him.
Bricking 5; ilvl 80 redbeaks into rare rustrd swords just to influence slam it and fuse it with shaper to chance it unique again lol..
did that also with a hunter influenced screaming eagle which looks ducking insane tbh.
love the tricks you CAN do in PoE
I spent three days Quarry farming for the +1 level of all spell skill gems and +1 chaos and chaos dot multi for an ILVL 65 Opal Wand.
I've crafted a lot in my time on PoE and it's never felt as good as to finally get that right. And here's why: I actually WORKED for that item like it's my damn job. 8h+ every day. The first day I got the mod with Mana and the wand bricked and it took me from lvl 76 to 83 just from killing Harvest monsters less than a percent of exp at a time.
Usually crafting is just... Done. You farm forever to get a decent pool of currency and then you throw different orbs at the item. And often the item is done in like 5 minutes.
"Okay. I got it, we're done"
But this time:
"+1 ALL SPELLS FUCK YEAH I CAN GET THE HELL OUTTA QUARRY, CYA LATER BITCHES!"
Behemoth Needle, Opal Wand is not the strongest item I've ever made. But it damn sure will go and sit in Standard on the first page in my stash on the currency tab in the crafting slot so that I see it every time I log on to standard to delete a character.
I even sent screenshots of the damn thing to my GF, that's how proud of myself I was for spamming smoke mine plus flame dash for three days.
TL;DR: Yeah, I know no one cares about a damn wand craft but I kinda love Harvest.
Yo that is cool haircut Tarke. You legit look different with it.
Thanks dude.
@@TarkeCat No match for Chris'.
Actually clean asf tho
Dude looking like a barons child
On the wisdom and portal scroll debate, I actually agree with Chris on this point that the wisdom and portal scrolls are important to the feel of the game (specially at the beginning when they are so limited). However I would really like it if we were able to bind them to a key after we reach maps and they become so abundant that they are quite trivial as items and it's just a pain in the butt to open the inventory and click on the scroll to ID or to open a portal. I don't know, maybe there is a good design reason as to why this is not implemented.