The future of PoE with Chris Wilson - Podcast with
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- Опубликовано: 16 июл 2024
- Zizaran and @Mathilification sat down with GGG Lead Developer Chris Wilson to talk about the state of the game and its issues, as a follow up to the Baeclast the other day.
In this talk they cover the current state of build making, endgame, crafting, upcoming changes in 3.16, and much much more.
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There will be an OVERVIEW / DISCUSSION video about the contents from this podcast as fast as we can make it.
The full podcast went up as soon as possible to that everyone can see it.
what mathil did was unprofessional i was so angry
@@moustafamagde what did he do? Might have missed it last night on the stream
@@Dragon211 ziz was pointing to something from the average players view mathil argued with him from his perspective as pro player and ofc chris was on mathil side he could just waited and talked to ziz after the live
@@moustafamagde thats exactly what I was thinking, the questions should be discussed between both of them before or after instead contradicting each other. Extremely poor representation of the community on stream at minute 4. SENDING MIX MESSAGES WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBELM.
@@kugaan1997 Yeap, not trying to be disrespectful, but I defo lost a lot of respect for Mathil after this.
Whether you agree with him or not, I appreciate Chris taking so much time to communicate with the community. Please try to keep these forums coming.
Damage control. But honestly I appreciate it too. Just sad I don't agree with his vision at all. If he wants to play a game like Diablo 2 he should buy D2R next month.
Chris really broke my spirit about this game, but I guess its better that I know what he want the game to become so I stop hoping.
100% he takes it head on like a G
@@rolfich7219 The worst part to me about his D2 comparisons is that they were either untrue (D2 did have target farming as a key piece of the game, see Countess, Hellforge, LK) or missed the point (D2's campaign IS the game, POE's campaign is an extended tutorial to the real game). But putting that aside, I do agree that it's cool to have him actually sit in front of a camera and interact directly with the fanbase. Just getting that communication about what's happening, what's coming up, and why they're having trouble responding to certain persistent problems is good :)
When you got from 120k player same time last year to 40k now for sure you may start to worry
"We've added alternate endgames in the past: Delve, Reddit..."
Just have to say, his answer on the free stashtab thing .. WOW, amazing that a lead dev of a game company actually gives a straight, transparent and honest answer about making the bottom line. Huge respect there.
I agree
I can confirm that, even playing softcore trade league, I try to minimize the amount of dying. That should be taken more into consideration when balancing defenses.
Of the characters I've played this League in sc the one who lived the longest with 0 deaths was the one where i went all in on dps (hollow palm ice crash), first death at around lvl 85. Meanwhile my sst glad who invested a fair bit into defenses had several deaths at that point, although that was a ssf starter. For SC scaling dps is so much more efficient for survivability than defences, if you can tolerate the occasional death.
@ Sadly this i had same effect i did an insane tank build i could clear up to T16 20% deli. but didn't have the DPS. i switched to a Ice crash build myself got to T16 was able to clear a 80% Deli....i was also able to clear most endgame with no deaths...
It's stupid how 7.5k Health, 2mil DPS and 82% across 4 blocks and 15% Dodge across board and over 3k leech is not enough to stay alive.
@@LadyVixenGames whats even dumber is how few skill can break the 2 mil barrier without significant investment after the enormous nerf to melee gems that was absolutely devastating. It really makes GGG look dumb for nerfing jugg into the floor
True. I think in order for defenses to really work there needs to be a way to see why you died so the player can learn where his defenses lack. I think even now that would solve a lot of the problems
@@goldenhate6649 And even with 2M dps Maven's regen on any big boss drives you crazy. I remember spending 15min and bailing out on a cortex fight, surviving well, but not enough dps. Same with most of the timed events (legion / incursion) : less dps, but same timer = you struggle if you stray away from the best builds.
Thank you Chris Wilson for taking the time and effort to talk to the community through Ziz and Mathil.
And thank you Ziz for taking all the points from different people and include them too. Great community effort
Once the campaign is finished, if you make an alt, you have all waypoints unlocked, and have to complete the quests for passives, kill all act bosses and have free reign on where to go within the campaign
This would be a solution in line with Chris's argument against Delve while addressing the issues many players including myself have with the campaign. Have this engagement comment!
I'd rather the sidequests be account wide passive unlocks so you just beeline and kill no side stepping, like how you only do lab trials once a league.
Honestly just giving the waypoints would be awesome
Easiest way to just make you capable of creating new character on 65 lvl. About sidequest passives idk and idc for now, but lvl 65 would be easiest. And you would be able to play path of building while playing path of exile instead
@@VahnBlack having passives accountwide would give a fresh alt 25+ passives at lvl 1
i think thats fun and all, but its abit overpowered, my idea was still gating the alt levelling process, but make it streamlined and more exploratory
I really appreciate Chris answering these questions. The game might not be in an amazing state. But, it feels really good to have an open discussion.
I agree. At least he tries to communicate with the crowd.
I'ts weird how in the last podcast he was really answering, this one he really went full politician again and started avoiding or providing non-answers.
More amazing than all the other games that are just left to rot by their developers because they lost the love for their game long ago because it strayed so far from their vision. I think POE can only be good as long as chris is passionate about it. If he thinks it's a pile of trash it just stops getting worked on.
Many devs would be more reserved to face criticism and questions in those Q&As when there is so much negativity about recent changes. They'd usually wait until it blows over and give some half assed explanations.
@@_hank9508 I think that's why it's important to have someone like Chris who can deal with the shitshow and then filter out the needed feedback from the general noise. I think Chris is doing a pretty good job.
Funny how you guys are talking about Harvest, in Harvest I would look at an item in a completely different way that if I could just make one or two tweaks to an item it would be great, it made me want to identify items as if it just had a couple rare things on it you could add or remove a thing or two to make it usable. This still used “currency” in a way as these crafts could be worth something, so the big end game “Perfect items” would still take an incredible amount of currency to create, but it made looking at almost any item worth while (on the topic of bases or starting points of a craft)
The thing that made me feel like this (and bad about it) was the next league after Harvest, identifying a rare, looking at it and thinking “oh nice, if I can just put some ‘x modifier’ on this it would be usable, oh wait, it’s not Harvest, if it’s not “perfect” (or decent) off the bat, just vendor it” (or learn to just not pick up rares again)
Edit I forgot to add: I freaking love these things with Chris and am so grateful this awesome game (and favourite game) has such dedicated and passionate devs. Thank you GGGuys so much!
Great points. Rares as they are now are basically dead to me.
Harvest made me feel like the value of exalts were massively inflated by a low drop rate
Even with harvest I gave a shit about loot drops. For most of the good crafts you started with a super rare mod (+1 power charge, tailwind etc.) and continued the craft from there. Improving self-found items was just a waste of currency.
@@rckd5903 yes for the ultimate end game stuff, this stuff took a lot of currency or time to do so I don’t see the problem with it. It’s not like you have infinite crafts or choose which ones you get, you still have to grind for them or the currency to buy them.
If their sole focus is on Challenge leagues (not standard) then I don’t see the problem with accelerated progression in items. Perfect items in the market after a month? Seems fine to me since lots of people retire the league by then already anyway.
Side note that Harvest was the longest playing league I’ve ever played (and I’ve played since beta), I loved that I could always be chasing the next augment or annul to perfect a piece of gear
yes! i felt like everybody in Harvest started to learn what are the mod tags, what are the mod groups, which mods are exclusive and building a 12-step plans to make a real good item (but still far from perfect). One item that they are doing for a couple of days and spending dozens of exalts... is that "too good too quickly"? I think not.
another "toxic" point: when you have a perferct character people stop playing, right? WRONG. People stop playing when they see further gameplay as a (time) gamble that is not worth it. But when I built my 2 good characters (far from perfect but also far from whatever I'm able to build now) in Harvest league I was still playing because it's fun. Do you ever wonder why there is an RMT market a thing? Why do people consider spending their USD dollars of America to instantly get a complete character with mirrored and mirror-tier items only? Because they like to upgrade it further? NOPE. Mayde to leave the gamy instantly because their character is finished? NOPE. Because they want to reach the fun avoiding the tedious chore. And PoE progressing without Harvest, considering all the other stuff already discussed many times, is indeed a tedious chore for many people. But it became an interesting and intelligent game for a moment... and Chris cursed that moment as a failed experiment. What a shame
Thanks for the amazing questions Ziz, you made realy good points throughout the whole interview. looking forward to future talks and podcasts about POE
many months after this podcast, watched this in hindsight and really want to thank you two to represent probably most of the community, the high skill and casuals. I believe the current league is a result of this interaction.
Thank you for this! This was something MUCH needed, so that GGG and community are more at same page understanding each other better. I am sure this will help future to be so much better! Thank you Mathil and Zizaran for doing this.
this is not what happened roflmao.
@@Qarnifex Nothing was supposed to happen in a week, nor during the league ^^
Something that may be interesting for target Div card farming would be that once you find one card and want to finish the set maybe you could use the one card in place of a sextant to modify the surrounding maps to have a higher percentage of dropping that specific card
then you also need to think on 6 player farming like Empy does and printing mirror/HH cards.
@@TCM235 they do that anyway so it doesnt matter
@@heyklaus9212 actually it does matter. Take for example their strategy which they are doing on currency but add a variable that the chance of dropping mirror card would be a lot higher. In the current economy price of mirror is 25K chaos and now think that Empy and bunch of other guys who are playing in group would be farming mirror cards the price of mirror would look like similar to what Exalted was in heist when people starting farming it. From 100c to 80c to 30c when everyone was doing it
No thanks. Theres too many div card in the game, they kill the game, theres no more chase item because of them.
@@TCM235 Ex dropped to 30 for like a week or 2 because of a large price fixing scheme. They went back up to 80c soon after and everyone with half a brain converted all of their c into ex. Heist mechanic made them cheap but that was around 80c.
Really appreciated to have Mathil on board, you really complement each other.
This was great. Thank you @Mathilification , @Zizaran, and @ChrisWilson !
Just dropped in here to say you had done a spectacular job with this interview, Ziz. Really well done on the representation of a more casual audience's issues.
Chris I'd love to see you record yourself starting an off meta build and then beating maven, or even Sirus for that matter. I don't even care that it's skewed because you have lots of game knowledge that gives you an advantage. I'd love to see it
I created a build that none in last league played. Before nerfs and not entirely complete it had 22.5mil dps on Pob. I am running the build now and mostly at same point with 11.5mil . I cannot imagine how bad my other builds would have been that cannot reach 2mil.
Point is, that there is builds not being played that is OP as hell, but that does not invalidate that build viability took a serious nose dive.
Chris himself stated that he has no time to play and hasn't even finished the campaign for quite a while. Even with playing a busted meta skill might prove too much of a challenge at this point. He even stated that a friend of his started playing and shortly after started asking questions he didn't even understand.
@@dovahkiin7987 how does he expect us then to understand 😂
😉😈😲 ☝ Lightning warp totems ! 😂😂😂
I’m sure he could. I do it and I am pretty casual, but I often finish things in standard and love that. My opinion and place that is uncommon
I have a lot of respect for Chris, he made some very insightful responses to why things were designed as they are. As a former student of game design, this video is educational gold.
Next time if Chris bring up the magic card topic in regards to chase item. I don't play magic but I assume it is similar as other CCG. You normally buy a booster pack that is specific to a release or expansion, in poe terms those are the location or boss. So when he is opening a pack and there is a chance to get a super rare item, he is essentially fighting Kaom and there is a chance it could have Kaom's heart.
This is a really good point. The booster packs do not include all possible cards from all previous expansions only those in that boosters set.
I was just about to comment that. A completely false comparison, and just what we're asking for. Just imagine CHASING that card you want without knowing which pack it's supposed to be in lol...
Ask Chris when he will be releasing all the heist specific uniques into the global drop pool. Lets see how that affects heist. lol
No it is not similar. It is horrible comparison by Chris. In Magic you normally make your own decks of 60 cards and when you are playing - you will have only those cards that you have put in your deck. This limits which cards you will get. For each cart you can have up to 4 of the same in that deck (thus increasing your chances to draw it often in the game). But there is another thing - in magic you have a lot of options (depending on how you build your deck) and you can get out even from a tricky situation (unless you get a really really bad draws in a row). In other words, in order for PoE to be comparable to Magic, it would have to give a possibility to a player to organize where each drop will be. Like a particular map will guarantee a drop from a certain loot table, a different map from a different loot table. Chris is talking nonsense.
@@InkubusGames i think theres just many way people paly magic, i think his comparison is more of u as a kid when u play magic and slowly powering up your deck with booster packs. how people play mtg now is super different to how it was
In the Baeclast podcast, Chris said, they wanted to come away from calling it hard mode. My idea would be calling it drought.
Torment, because you are tormenting yourself.
I like "Famine" as a name. Similar idea to drought, but it has more desperation to it.
I liked the term ziz used the other week, Poverty Mode.
@@mlmchale Liking it, tho thats already a mod for private leagues
how about "stupid idea" "who would even want this????" or "I unironically love ball and cock torture"
I think my largest concern is path of exile is not diablo 2. He keeps comparing the games. But we're at a point where they aren't the same. Poe started as a love letter towards diablo. But with each league, each new boss, each new endgame update it gets further and further. I'm worried that Chris just doesn't know how to progress with the evolution of Poe and instead wants it to stay hard and difficult. The main fact is I think, diablo 2 was a smaller game. You didn't need to take a week off on a league start to get anywhere because it didn't work like that. Path of exile has so much content that it's cruel almost to just make it so hard to reach by making the game "more like diablo". On top of this I think the last thing is that when it takes someone weeks to grind to sirus or even more for maven and etc, it's so so punishing when you die 6 times and have to grind all the way back..I feel like realistically this hits player retention quite hard.
Imho Chris only uses the Diablo 2 excuse for things when it gets questioned "Why does this exist?" -> Diablo 2
Everything shall be like Diablo 2, except for the things that aren't, but even then it's Diablo 2 esque because Diablo 2 always stood for unnecessary hardcore shit so unnecessary things keep plopping up.
I got to sirus for the first time ever last night, died 5 times because console can't support the game and almost actually killed him on the last attempt, now I'm at work thinking about all the progress and grinding I'll be missing out on just to go home and get BS'd by the game again :) love it x
@@upanddown1132 precisely. I'm currently running an energy shield build and my health can just vanish before I even have a chance to press Vaal discipline. Or flame dash. Or anything.
And when you kill Maven(as a 0.4%er), and get shit loot, you don't even feel rewarded for the time you've spent.
Worst even, in the case of trade league, because top tier players are power farming her, the trash loot is cheap making your time even LESS valuable.
People have no idea how rare it is to see a CEO sit down with streamers for hours upon hours upon hours. It really is insane. Big thanks to Chris and the cast.
Ever heard aboud Escape From Tarkov?
@@andrey9708 Ya, I'm playing it :) I said it's rare, not that it doesn't exist.
like a diablo 2 on normal "rare" or a poe "rare"
Was a great stream. Thanks for hosting Ziz.
When ziz mentioned elevated rares from maven I get the feeling like chris was thinking to himself (Holy shit thats an awesome idea)
it didnt came from ziz that idea im just dropping this here
@@Hazetheassassin i never said it did... i just said when he mentioned it?
would be pretty awesome tbh.. then u can use those bases to woke orb items
Gotta say, Mathil's combative stance against Ziz on the build viability topic made a lot of sense. Mathil was talking about build Viability, and if a build is able to do all content (by lots of different people), then it is viable. There's always going to be playstyles that are faster at clearing than others, more resilient than others, or have a better time bossing than others. We just need to have those 3 things on DIFFERENT builds. Part of what makes the game fun is that you can play it again in a different way.
EDIT: Also, bringing back the stone circles (or doing it in the menagerie), so that Talismans could be upgraded 5 for 1 after a fight (but not need to be 5 DIFFERENT talisman bases), the way they were in the league would make talismans so much more engaging. Smart loot is one way they could be usable. another is during this upgrade process, mods on the new item are chosen from the input items. This would make bad bases with good mods still valuable.
Can't wait for hardmode. Great interview from you two, enjoyed this much more than Baeclasts interview.
47:00 I think the mistake of harvest was not introducing it as it would have been great to see the interaction. The mistake was to bring it back in full force (buffed even because there was no more seed management) and then gut it.
I feel the issue with skill viability is the investment in time needed to make a lot of less popular skills feel good to play and the amount of obscure or less apparent game knowledge needed to accomplish it is just a little unrealistic for most people to achieve but is somewhat expected or missed by people who have been with the game for a long time. It's a lot easier to comprehend a system if you have watched it from the start and seen it slowly evolve over time than if everything is just dumped on you at once. This is to the point in POE where you need 1-2 hour videos to explain simple mechanics which might be outdated in a few months, it is good that the game evolves like this but unrealistic to expect a lot people to get it or, even try to learn it in the first place.
It'd be real nice if I could bring a friend in to a new league without either A) spending a week prepping them with third-party tools and training or B) giving up on my own league start entirely.
This. When mathil jumped in it made complete sense. And as someone that has a hard time making a build I'm pretty sure it's because of my lack of knowledge and time to willingly figure out solutions
The thing is that even 10+ year veterans are still just using the same skill as a content creator is using just cause they dont wanna try anything else, a lot of people play builds that they don't even enjoy, just cause they saw it works.
If you really look for it, there is probably a guy using a build that doesn't even appear in poeninja and is still wreking everything.
I understand that time is valuable, so most people will prefer to follow a guide, or just do the same as someone that showed them that the thing they are using, works, but you can't just say that there are just 5 builds working cause it's what poeninja says.
Do you think that there is around 15%+ of the players on every league mode (sc, hc, ssf or trade) using SST just cause it's good? Nope, it is the way it is cause streamers are doing it, imagine if poeninja didnt exist, imagine if you couldn't share any poe footage, no guides out there, every one would go for the build they like or maybe a build that a friend of them told them to go for, yeah, there would be meta builds of course, but you could see a lot more skills being used.
Yes, SST is amazing right now, it probably is one of the best as of 3.15, and super easy to gear, but that doesn't mean other builds are worse or shit, I did the FR totems and did everything, even The Feared, DEATHLESS, my life didnt even move, yes, I died a lot of times in maps, but not cause the build is fully a glass cannon, I just didnt care, I was SC, didnt even build defensely, facechecked corners, ON A TOTEM BUILD.
I do understand both sides tho, Ziz take on the dodge/block for maps might be true, builds that have these mechanics can do maps easier that these that don't, going full life also works, MOM too, maybe you just have to play a bit more defensely, but as I said, I fcking did Feared on a somewhat well geared MOM build deathless, taking note that the defenses are on a pretty much super bad spot right now, there is enough build viability, it's just a lack of players wanting to try things instead of just going for the secure thing ( I also fall in that section but I also know and understand that I could go something else that doesn't appear on rankings and still be able to do everything, I am just a bit burned out so I decided to go something that other people would help me build ).
Let's see what they change for 3.16 and 3.17 and hope that people go for something else that they really want to try instead of everyone going for SteelMage build.
@@tumblingman28 Personally, I thought Mathil came off as smarmy and lacked nuance--sharing an opinion based entirely on his experience of playing 60+ hours a week and theory crafting another 20+, where currency is never an issue and the exalts flow like water.
Build viability is great. Provided you no-life it. Other than that... Things feel worse than they used to. Maybe not HORRIBLE. But worse.
@@CriticallyLit 2 things. 1: If Mathil's opinion as someone who has actually put in the time to make builds work, doesn't matter, then who does, someone who decided to jus tplay what was popular instead of be innovative? You do realize he does interesting builds on league start without shit tons of currency right? And there's plenty of theorycrafters on youtube that makes good quality endgame builds with 10c budgets. 2: Those types of players I just mentioned, why would build viability even matter to them, it doesnt.
90% of one shots from mobs are due to overlapping auras (this is why Legion is so freaking scary, random white archer dealing 4k per hit). Honestly, if they just made it so rares can be affected by 2 auras, magic 1 aura, normal (no auras), it would solve a ton of issues with one shots. It is absolutely bonkers how much stronger monsters can become if you have rolled specific modifiers already on the map (for example Baran with insane amounts of cast speed as a melee player). Or at least let the players know what auras monsters can have so we can play around/expect them.
Good point. Also, auras could only apply to the related pack (or with much less effect on other packs).
I went from dying multiple times in a row one day and falling to 0 xp to gaining 60% yesterday. The only difference is I didnt vaal and rerolled vulnerability and shocking ground.
@@biggusdickus2166 okay good but thats a dmg modifier u had not an aura that makes 20mobs hit u 15times a sec
Terrible, if you died to legion its only because you tried to chew more than your build could. You KNOW what kind of mobs there will be, you KNOW what aura rare have so if you died its all on you. The state of the game is fine. Theres just too many casual player in poe and this patch made those player struggle to get better.
Solution of was made in d3 when auras applying only on own pack of monsters. Why Chris ignoring experience and solutions for problems which was solved in other games, that's the question
this was so well done guys, great tone, information, content and discussion. *thumbs up*
Thanks so much to Ziz, Chris and Mathil for preparing and having this conversation! Third comment... Whatever!
Even if I don't agree with many an answer that was given it is good to know what to expect and what is off the table. The future will show if the decisions Chris and GGG make are for the best concerning the long-term health of the game but in the end it's their baby. They can burn it to the ground as they please!
...Phrasing. Also I don't think it'll burn but it may be less successful than it used to be.
The problem is that there are 3 different kinds of POE players: The kind that grinds for literal days on end to get insane amounts of currency and can blow 1000's of ex on crafting, and the kind that gets to red maps, maybe fight sirus once or twice per league, and that's it, and the kind that gets to white maps and stops.
I'll grant that the game should not be balanced around people who were stopping at white maps, but I also don't think it should be balanced exclusively around the "no lifers" either.
My problem is that Chris has basically said, not just in this video but collectively, that they don't really care about the more casual players, because this game isn't for them, it's meant for the people that grind for days, and all I keep hearing from all these interviews is more and more evidence that the game will be shifting in a direction that effectively gates the game for more casual players.
I'm gonna be hohest, I can't tell what you want. All 3 players can do those things just fine.
I think it's more of balancing struggling to do content and running through with no resistance. We just went from too easy to too hard, some defensive buffs like Ziz discussed and reworking flasks alone will fix most of the issues.
Mathil is my favorite man. Call out all the sky is falling bullshit for what it is. PoE definitely has some problems and areas that need work. But if you complain about 100% of the game it takes away attention from problems that are actual problems.
this type of discussions , is why i love PoE.... they give us the time and respect that other companies never do! cheers to all 3 of you !^^
Great conversation. Thanks for this. I just did a "brain-refresh" run of Act 1 because I'm jonesing so bad for Scourge league. I only played 3.15 for about 2 weeks. I miss PoE.
Im new in POE.
I was a fan of diablo, but fell in love with POE, great game, you can see that the company depends on the players. The game itself is so extensive and interesting that, instead of playing every day, I read about everything, because there is a lot to deal with: D
I only have problem with fps:D
I wish you more and more success in developing the game :)
This podcast in a nutshell:
Ziz: * critique *
Chris: * answers the critique *
Mathil: Well I actually already like it
@AmbivalentX no, this community is purposely raging. You get destroyed for liking the game and building two defense nodes.
Bunch of lazy gamers drowning a great game imo
@AmbivalentX The problem is: if he already like the game what he is doing on the podcast that meant to be discussion about current poor state of the game? People are angry, they want to be heard, and he just siting here like "nah, everything is ok, you guys are just dumb".
@@Leshoi I definitely agree the level of anger is dumb, but Chris and GGG seem to just be handling it fine, and a certain level of annoyance and frustration is appropriate. I do also love that Mathil couldn't give a shit about people being worked up about it.
He also preying to Chris Wilson for a rng half of a time (holding hands) 😂. BTW it's good to have some from other side that likes the changes. I'm with mathil. My best leag over here. Got hh in like week 2. My 1st hh ever.
@AmbivalentX the people angry T the game are arguing in bad Faith.
You peacefully run through map. Tiny thing throws some tiny small needle to your character. you died. This is POE.
THX Chris Wilson and Zizaran and Mathilification.
Ah yes, Aug Life: my favorite aspirational content
biggest prob with POE for me is, balancing around trade. I really would love a game like POE but balanced around SSF. instead of having to "buy" my upgrades and gear, I want to find, craft, upgrade and progress everything by myself. its just not fun to run around loot stuff here and there, which is mostly meaningless to me, sell it and buy my way up. and thats (imho) why harvest felt so good. maybe it was a bit too overtuned but the basic idea "interacting with all the systems available in the game to increase the power level of my character by myself" (and not trade) was the most fun ive had in poe since i started playing in 2014. everything i do in poe boils down to - farm enough "currency" to buy the items im looking for and ignoring big parts of the game because its just not worth it. (regular currency "gambling/crafting" etc)
As long as trading exists, the best solution is always gonna be the latter. We either keep trading and circling around it or just dump it. ARPG around trade is a tricky problem, especially for PoE since GGG as a company relies only on one product to survive.
Try out Last Epoch
SSF is a side mode. ARPGs have always been about loot and the trade economy and that's has the multiplayer aspect - not singleplayer. That's player interaction, gives an item it's value. You would destroy the primary purpose because of your bias. You can SSF on your own no problems without having the game having to change. The worst thing a game can do is try please everyone, it never works out, you pick your core system and design and stick with that with adjustments. Besides why do you need SSF balance? It's incredibly easy, I've done SSFHC on some of the hardest league but crafting system makes everything
trivial.
@@Despond No, you're biased. ARPGs - by that you mean Diablo mostly because it is the oldest one which started the genre - was never about trade. Diablo I and II were mostly played in single player mode offline by most of the players and at most players would gather and throw lan parties to then show off their items and maybe trade or dupe items. Battlenet was the smallest part of the community by far and that is why Plugy was so popular - it enhanced the SSF aspect which the majority of players enjoyed. Never trading. Trading was never core to the experience of building your character and advancing through the Acts.
Synthesis is the answer indeed! Would love to see it coming back.
This was a very good podcast. Ziz and Mathil brought some great differing opinions and it was nice to see them go back and forth on some things.
I was t5xb
Kut. 8u b7
As everyone has things I liked to hear and others i don't, I'm not even going to the Hard Mode point, but Diablo 2 this Diablo 2 that, Mathil's response was perfect, it's 2021 don't try to balance things thinking about early games 2000s, we need "modern" ideas, so to speak, consistent with our current date, and it's no shame to use mechanics from other games, to improve yours.
If he likes D2 so much, make it so we can power level a second character through the game easily like it D2
Yeah but you're talking to a major Diablo 2-addict who was so addicted to Diablo he made a Diablo-clone and a company over it. So "if it worked in Diablo 2, it works here"- is going to be an answer for a lot of things.
I never killed shaper but still watch this stuff. To me it's disencouraging how much time I need to spend on guides and progression to maybe beat the game.
Play still d2 regularly with friend cause it's so simple and fun
Been playing D2 for 21 years. Started playing hardcore this year. It is SO nice playing a build and _never_ have to worry about it being nerfed into the ground because the devs keep adding power creep.
Chris is the GOAT. How much he understands the game, opens up to criticism and suggestions. Never seen so many people praise the game more than this league.
Fucking love this game.
The build viability feeling better in harvest and ritual is (imo) because we had more powerful items that made us feel like a build that required alot more effort to make in the leagues before and after was much easier to achieve. People could try more funky builds because the powercreep was at an all time high
58:00 Chris saying something and trying to phrase things without revealing to much pretty much makes me crack up xD
I mostly agree with with Chris on the leveling aspect of the game, but when they started discussing how it was in D2 and the fact that you had to run through the campaign 3 times there is also something that they are forgetting about. In D2 you could actually rush characters through the campaign and into the end-game with the help of other people. There was no penalty on experience gain on the character if you were lvl 10 in a lvl 50 zone and this made it possible for people that did not want to repeatedly run the campaign to actually "skip" it by having people rush their characters to the end-game in about 30 min. This is not something that is really possible in POE since there is an increasing penalty on experience gain if your character's lvl is too low compared to the zone level and therefore does not allow for any meaningful way to skip the campaign grind of making a new character.
Bring back uber leveling with a Necromancer to place a bone wall at the perfect spot in Tristram!
Thats not even unique to D2, that is still a mechanic in D3 and was a mechanic in WoW until cataclysm if im not mistaken. The fact its so punishing to level characters that end up not working and having to restart 2 or 3 times in the first weeks of a league because starter builds that used to work dont anymore just sucks
Chris! First, thank you for all your interviews. Second, I'd REALLY love improvements in the "item workshop" direction.'
Also, remember when they removed shotgun? What a meta shake up that was
I skipped this league, but I must say GGG doing this sit down itself and being willing to listen to the community regardless of if they will implement the changes or not, is commendable and I really respect that.
A great interview!
the main thing with chase items is, you need to know where to item actually is to be able to chase it. even if its not specifically tied to bosses but tied league mechanics or a mechanic on a more broad spectrum its still gonna be a chase item. For example create a really good rare unique but make it only drop from delirium so that you cant specifically farm it from one mob or boss but the mechanic itself. Also a really small thing, can we please rotate items in the inventory and can we get a gem stash tab, literally separating dex, str, int gems, also separating skill and support gems. 1 free premium stash once you complete act 10 is definitely a really good idea, because the game is so heavily built around trading its basically forced at this point unless you're playing SSF, or at least give us the option to upgrade an existing free tab on completion.
I'm terrible at the game but I've always understood that asenaths are a chase item but never understood why there was no obvious method to find them as a noob lol
@@yakoobski its obvious what i meant, that was literally an example, you dont have to be so specific.
turning build-enabling gems into chase items is one of the worst decisions.
@@0bskura kicker is, back in delve they said they would never do it, and here we are
You don’t need to sell to trade. Just buy your items.
There was a repeating theme in the answers that say He/GGG want people to play the game a certain way, their approved way. Yet, they gave us all these tools and systems to play different ways and they didn't like that players chose a different way to play and they went about significantly altering and taking away a lot of the tools that gave people the freedom to play it their own way.
The math just doesn't add up. Chris said if people can make the best items with Harvest it is a problem, people will make the best items then stop playing. But that isn't what happens, the Harvest leagues have had by far the best retention rates.
Chris is out of touch and doesn't understand it when people explain the issue they have with the pacing of the game. 99.9% of the players didn't make mirror tier gear gear, but they were able to over time get upgrades, you could from week one to week twelve progressively improve your character with better stats. Maybe you weren't good enough of a player to do Boss X or Y in week 1-8 but as you progressively improved your character, a lot of people opened up content they struggled to do earlier in the league.
In this league my character was pretty much done after week 2. Sure, there were heaps of ways to improve my character, but each item would probably need 20-30ex to improve them, that is 20-30ex i would need to craft it myself, probably a lot more to buy from someone else. I could spend weeks farming the currency, but for most people that is too boring and it is for me too do it league after league after league every three months.
Yeah, it is much easier to get access to better gear with Harvest, but I didn't like Harvest how it was implemented originally or as it went core. They just needed to implement some mechanisms to target craft by removing and adding affixes. They could have limited it from deterministically making the best items by reducing the maximum tiers of deterministic mods, but the crafting system in general is a weak element of the PoE system. If there was only Standard league and you just had to do things once then sure, you want to have long-term goals. But everything gets wiped every 3 months, who cares if the league and economy gets scuffed in month three.
Standard itself is also unplayable if you're a new player who doesn't know how to craft items because everything is heaps of exalts. This is a problem because it means in order to get anywhere you have to use the cheapest and most devastating budget builds until you miraculously get into a good position to farm for currency. I don't even touch Standard because of this problem and I've played since Bestiary league...
Sound more like the way the Chinese government would design the game are the modern day US government.
Exactly my friend in ultimatum league I was playing Elemental hit after 2 weeks i got lucky with some crafts and all together earned around 100 ex bought gear for my character but to upgrade it to the next lvl it would take me 50 ex per item at least so i just quit once i got to that point. Ritual league i played for 1 and a half months it was amazing crafting items for myself for others even made a staff that sold for 120 ex I invested 50ex to craft it was the best feeling ever.
Dude.. the thing with ‘you’ll never identify an upgrade’ is sooo true.
Thanks for talking about that. Like rares are literally chaos recipe or not. The base matters more than anything.
GGG actually talking to community. I think talking about your game is the new AAA title. Keep community chat open and coordinated is way better than a behind the scenes hope you like it.
Awesome podcast. I really enjoyed it both live and here. But I have to add, that the Ziz vs Mathil discussion around the end regarding build viability made my day. I was almost crying because it was so funny. Mathil schooling Ziz about build viability and the meta. So good!!!!! And Chris was holding back hard to not laugh his ass off....
2:05:00 I'll add that I would pick a node that doubles my tankyness at the expense of half my damage 9/10 times. And I'm a softcore player
I had best time in previous league by playing very defense build (still get oneshoted sometimes, so...)
i like the variance of how many bosses spawn at a time, sometimes its easy sometimes u have to fight all 10, makes it interesting
In RE to favored maps: maybe have 1 unlock when you finish all the white ones in the zone, 1 for yellow, and 1 for red. So you get them naturally as you progress.
Thanks for doing this! Thoughts
All way points unlocked after first play through...still have to kill bosses, do bandits while also able to use other systems to fully level
A system that allows for high tier gear that can only be used if certain criteria are met...allowing for a continuing improvement of gear and progression without having people over geared for lower content...something to strive for at "end" "end game"
Additional endless incrementally harder endgame content
Endless content only serves to de-value the high tier rewards though. When getting a headhunter feels bad because there’s “paragon headhunter”
If only uniques were made exciting again, I would be happy. Make them better, more rare and some buildenabling ones targetable. Today unique drops are just whatever because 99% suck! And stop talking about HH drops. Never happens anyway.
Yes, but take into account some are supposed to be low level or subpar, so you use them as cheap stepping stones. But i agree. We need more options.
@@CrumpetsNBiscuits Well, if some uniques are literally never used, even while leveling, why would they even be in the game then? I'd rather have all those useless uniques that see absolutely zero use even while leveling and also in the endgame. I don't mind uniques that get some use at least at the leaguestart, those are great. Some extremely niche uniques that can be used for some purposes, sure as well. But what is eg. Nycta's Lantern even for?
Nah I hate that idea. Why not just pot the mods on the rare item pool in some kind of influence to enable the builds? Why do I have to get an rxact carbon copy of an item to create a build? Honestly I'd love to see all uniques removed and the mods from them added as mods to rares as "unique suffixes/prefixes" with a really low occurence.
every patch some new meta builds emerge, it's hard to make all uniques enable some build, you just don't know what people will come up with next or what other skill the patch will break
TBH some uniques are not even in the radar of people trying new builds, there are unexplored paths there. Or should i say most people try to follow guides most of the time.
One thing to keep in mind about early acts being that tuned is how many new players you may discourage - I'd have thought you would tune A9 and A10 first. People already quit before Brutus and the player base that may have normally hit say act 3-8 before, are now probably more likely quit before even hitting A2 or A3 which is when i remember a turning point in the game was for me in the early years - The games intricacies start becoming recognized.
Appreciate all of you taking the time.
i would love to start a 2nd character at a higher level to do a cruel/merciless run of the acts so that way i dont start at level 1
like, starting 2nd char would start them at 40 and the zones scales up slower back to 68 and then it unlocks merciless where everything scales even slower but you finish
You don't have to do the atlas again at least
@@bradjenkins2861 i know, I meant if they add them back you could make a character to play through them without startinga t level 1 which might make it feel less bad
Say what you want about GGG, but what other company's lead Dev spends 6 hours talking with community members about the future / current issues with their game.
Companies with competent lead devs that listen to their player base.
@@supermatt87 competent my ass. they can't even do a proper fix they don't even listen to players when everyone before 3.15 said NO this is bad...yet it got ignored now they saw what happens when everyone quit.
The ones that try to do damage control over huge losses. GGG is exactly that right now.
@@LadyVixenGames "but what OTHER company's lead dev" Learn to fucking read.
I also wanna say I love path of exile so much. It has been the only game that can continue to stimulate and keep my ADHD brain on leauge after leauge. I have only skiped one leauge for college summer school reasons to finish my degree sooner. I couldnt get in path while keeping up with work but other than that i have been playing since 2016 and missed one league putting at least a month every leauge for 5 years mow and still love this game to death. I love the direction this is going and i love mathil ziz chris and most of the other streamers and community members of ggg. Who make this game the phenomenal game it is. Also I watch tons of build guide but only really use then if i feeling lazy mostly build my own shit. That is a really fun part of the game cause their is always so much to explore.
Alot of people worried about mathil/ziz clashing on ideas, surely you realise thats better. Not only do you get the initial arguement, but you get the opposing non-company based response to said arguement, i love the fact they disagreed on points. Perfect fir the dev team to see both sides of an opinion.
Do they even think about the people that currently have a JOB outside of poe and just want to make sure that when they come home, that can play some reliable build as they don't have afford to have the same TIME as a streamer to look and try different builds? This is why people keep going to the same meta builds because most of them lack of KNOWLEDGE and you know what comes with knowledge? TIME to invest on trying new builds. This isn't only about the main perspective of a streamer's variety of builds. It's more much than that. It really needs to be balanced bettween streamers and average players like myself who always try to find some guidance on the poe community to find some fun and effective build that you can play for the long run.
How am I suppose to introduce such a complex game to a friend?
Sorry for the long text.
I agree. However I don't think they give a shit about us, people with jobs and life. Streamer Raiz himself said they want us "dumb bitches" out of the game. Well sad for them, good luck not having people who actually have money to spend ;)
I would never try to tell someone to play Poe . I’ll talk about it sure but nobody I care about deserves to go through the hell we go through lol
@zhe Wolf This game should always be considered to approach the most variety of a community instead of elitist people that don't even care about.
My biggest problem is crafting (I still don't know what I can get as a item, which mods on which item etc.), so I can't plan my build.
PoE should be in place where you see one interesting unique or skill or passive and want to make build concetrated on it. But I can do skill tree, but then what? GGG Please give noob/newbie players opportunity to makes their own builds. Playing meta builds is boring, because you don't understand core of build
Hopefully with hard mode on the way, it'll separate the masochists from the main game and therefore help make the main game be more oriented towards casual play.
Thoroughly insightful as always. I love hearing from Chris, especially in these more candid interviews. Love the banter between Ziz and Mathil
Oha, this is a Feature? I was shocked, what happened, when they all got out at the same time.
Great podcast as always, thanx ziz Mathil and chris
1:19:34 for this question GGG can split one of the free tabs make it half as big and make a separate window for trading in the same tab that is 8 to 16 squares big i think that is reasonable
"We have added alternative endgames before like Delve and Reddit" I THINK I JUST DIED. I love how he memes about Reddit more than we even do
I can't believe that only got a smirk out of Mathil. I bust out laughing when he said that.
2:32:32 is the best moment in Poe history
I love it when Chris says, " I agree with MAthil". LOL, so funny! MAthil is a giga chad!
@Chris Wilson thank you for everything.
Thanks for the thoughts and effort put into this and I also appreciate Chris taking the time to actually do these talks. Also thanks for bringing up awakened and alt quality gems, they used to be mid-tier chaseable exciting things (at least for me, also a chase item for some to a degree) and then got gutted as we all know. While I appreciate that this is GGGs game and their "vision", it still seems to me that Chris and the team are a bit stuck in the past (I am also almost 40 and have fond memories of the original D2). Sometimes their attitudes sound like "why are you not having fun when we are telling you this is fun". Having said that no one is forcing me to play this game and I hope certain things get better again, I am still enjoying parts of the current league and will see where it goes.
On the topic of maybe letting players have a free premium tab after finishing act 10, probably could make it so that it's only for usable during that league ?
So new players who jumped into poe can play n finish the campaign n get a premium tab to use n put stuff up for sale. Then when the league is over, they might be more interested to end up purchasing actual permanent tabs for themselves.
…they don’t seem to keen on that idea though
You don't understand, PoE would lose 99.9% of it's revenue and chiris Wilson needs his 274th black lotus card
I already don't have a job and play 24/7....at this rate Chris wants me to clone myself and have my clone ALSO not be employed and play all day just to progress.
This is why I quit
If you play all day and you weren't done progressing ~1-2 weeks ago, you're doing it wrong
@@ZishPOE no
@@ZishPOE No,not everyone likes to rush stuff and some people want to rush. Your way is not the correct way nor is it the right way for that matter since it's subjective.
You whiny people are so exeggerating what Chriss says. Maybe your priority should be getting a job, but I am not really surprised you are jobless with that attitude.
thanks for eveything chris!
btw, Hyped for the hardmode!
Good job guys.
why does everything fall to headhunter headhunter headhunter headhunter, like none of my 6 builds i play/played can even use it and its never gonna drop. I have 3000 hours played and never seen a hunter or a mirror. and even if a mirror dropped its like so what, what do i get a pair of boots out of it?
Thats exactly the point. You dont expect a HH or mirror. You dont plan with it. But if a HH WOULD drop it would be awesome and you would make a crazy OP build with it. Chris uses HH because its the pinnacle of this interaction. And OP opportunity you dont expect. Thats what he wants the Harvest crafts for example to be (and thats what they are to me tbh). Issue is: people got spoiled in 3.13
no offense, i dont know your play style, but i have 1600 hours, over about 7-8 years... I have about 10 hhs in stranded, they were really easy to target farm a while back, or they are easy to afford if you play in maps that have decent drops.
@@rundasleaf9383 you are definitly not the average player, most players make maximum 5 to 20 exalts a league.
If GGG wanted us to upgrade from white to blue to rare, why then do I have over 200 alch orbs and only 20 regals?
I just rewatched this talk post 3.17 launch and went through the comments. First: Thank you very much Zizaran for hosting this. But I don't really relate to most of the comments that are thanking Chris Wilson for doing this. I think, it should be the other way around. GGG can be very grateful to have a community that cares that much about this (in my opinion still) great game. This is a seldom sight to see!
i really wish you had brought up hardcore a bit more. especially in the heated conversation about build viability. in the end, it felt like mathil had the better argument by saying so many things are in fact viable. but if you add hardcore to the equation, as well as nerfed defenses, buffed monsters and still present .1 sec deaths and straight up oneshots, the situation looks vastly different. it would have been the perfect situation to talk about these hc only problems.
still all three of you did a great job, thanks for doing it. chris has a great sense of humor ^^ i hope there will be a second round :)
Honestly, i can agree on the most things chris said about chase items as Zit defines Chase.
The only real issue for me that was actually a bad change was to move boss only drops (like the guardian uniques) to overall drops.
I really enjoyed the answer from chris there that in this really specific case they are looking in to maybe change that.
its like a dog shit infront of your door or on your backyard. Regardless of where it drops, its still shit and i couldnt care less about it. Same thing about how chris said about shav being 100 ex n shit, thats because the meta shifted, not because the item dropping more often ( altho div card make it easier but i dont build a build with shav because i cant, its because i dont want to)
@@MefoWho I am not sure if you fully get the point..
It is literally irrelevant if any of those uniques are good or BiS for any given build. It is about them being dropped from a certain Boss in the game.
And just because the meta isnt shifting around those uniques doesnt mean they are trash.
Also I am pretty sure you missed his point in "the shavs being 100ex".
It is all about rarity of Items..
A Headhunter is that expensive because it is rare.. if it would drop as often as Wurm's Molt would do it would certainly just be the "go to" for every build that costs you maybe 5C.
@@kevinkk111 Eh, i mean starforge/disfavour or even acuity ( which is at 190 listed on softcore, and is at 27c atm no corrupted ) is in a bad spot right now. Maybe i didnt make my point clear. My point was even if the item is rare, if its shit, making it drop everywhere is just losing the flavor/novelty of the item as being a boss drop and doesnt even make people excited for that. Its a lose-lose situation where nobody needs that slivertongue drop in yellow map or some shit and hydra losing its unique drop
@@MefoWho well now i got it!
I mean Chris already mentioned that they'll look into certain uniques that are in a bad spot like disfavor.
@@kevinkk111 I hope so. Don't be like guardian drops : Yo u guys dont use these very often, so we will shove it into your face more frequently
I love how well thought out and precise Mr. Wilson speaks, he has my trust.
Thx to Chris, Ziz and Mathil! Let's get back and kill some monsters!
the fact that GGG is reaching out to the community says so much. And, theyre owning their mistakes. Blizzard wouldnt do this. After being burnt by so much corporate greed, seeing this is relieving. I'm glad they listen to us and I'll be returning to play this league.
I mean, the fact that chris is having a civil, intelligent conversation about it makes me happy. Cheers guys. Been around since beta and I appreciate the effort.
Just wanna say as someone who slowly found myself finding enjoyment less and less often as time has gone on playing video games due to developers changing their goal from making great games to making great profits, and as someone who never could get into wow or diablo because of boring gameplay or predatory monetization, i have always considered skyrim my favorite game of all time, followed closely behind by fallout new vegas, two games made at the epitome of their developers' philosophy, poe has become my new favorite game and i enjoy it so much that i have no interest in doing optimized pre made builds because i think it would take away part of the experience, the thrill of finding new uniques ive never found before, upgrading a seemingly endless skill tree with countless possibilities, looking forward to fresh content every 3 months, enjoying quality gameplay that makes you love its creator and feel happy to support them even though the game is friggin free! Which blows my mind because id absolutely pay 60 dollars and be fine with the micro transactions in the game rn, because i genuinely love it that much.
it would be interesting to know what Chris + GGG's expectation is of a reasonable amount of playtime, and what they hope players to achieve in that time. The worst sin a game can commit is to be disrespectful of player time, and it feels like GGG expects players to play 50+ hours a week for the entire league to achieve their goals, when the reality is most players can play 10 hours a week and maybe want to play the first month.
Exactly my concern as well. I have the feeling that they balance the game around the players who have those 50 hours a week. I was forced to quite this league at level 89 because I didn't want to put 100-200 hours more to make my no-meta character strong enough to clear most of the content. Simply not worth the struggle. I die 3-4 times in every red map, my right hand hurts because of the sick clicking... Etc. Not worth to put tons of my free time for a miserable barely noticable progress on the character...I love the game, but will wait for 3.16 and hope they will make possible for casual players to enjoy the whole game. Not hitting a concrete wall after 2-3 weeks.
You want to see all content play in standard ffs. Theres no league time limit there. Challenge Leagues are challenge leagues. There are people achieving 40 challenges in the first week. I think if you set a goal in poe you can easily do it in less than 3 months.
I agree, I had two week annual leave by chance that coincided with the league launch and put more time into poe in a league than ever before and finally beat sirus and shaper. Might have been the build but I also think simply having the time to push uninterrupted for 60 hours a week made a huge difference in mapping.
The "knowledge-based" nature of PoE makes a time comparison rather hard. Ziz playing 40hours is probably in the range of 1-50x more efficient when compared to other players and how consistently they can apply their knowledge of the game to make actual progress. I'm probably in the range of 25x less efficient than Ziz... so it it acceptable that the endgame takes 1000 hours to reach for me? Or for Ziz?
Not saying it's impossible, but it's such a large margin, I'm not sure it's a good question in the first place.
A more extreme example related to currency/Value-farming. Some folks farm MIRRORS - I farm yellow-red maps. Just put that in context of currency if you want an easy comparison of effectiveness... it's probably in the 3000-5000 times more efficient.
Yet the game is still relevant for both these players, even if you think I'm a scrub for only doing yellow-reds :)
it would be interesting to know if Chris +GGG testers ever have to grind for gear or if they get to hack it into the game. He seems to think the endgame builds are OMG TOO OP, when most players are having trouble on uncrafted red maps.
how about if I hold alt over a div card ingame it would show me ingame which areas that card can drop in
I wish I could be as enthusiastic about a game as these guys.
The awakened gems really need to be buffed again. My level 21 unleashed support is basically the exact same as a level 5 awakened unleash.
awakened multi and the awakened added damages are about the only ones still really worth their cost
Come on now, that's a really bad example. But still they are pretty weak I agree.
1. Spell slinger was a complete copout. Make it reserve more mana if you want to nerf further, but making it also cost mana is the issue.
2. How many hours of gameplay is needed for "your" chase items? 3700 hours in never dropped a mirror or HH. Something that rare is no longer a chase it's out of sight out of mind.
3. How many div cards already drop so rare that it is already as if they don't exist. So what's the difference?
4. How many hours should a player have to play to get one moderate upgrade on their gear? Keeping in mind that it is RNG based as well so one upgrade means going all the way through all the failures that are most likely to occur first.
5. The problem is for the last five weeks you've said that it's going to get better and it has zero improvement.
6. If people that play the game for a living can't even find a craft until why should I that try to play this game for fun in my free time ever even know that that craft exists how is that exciting to me I don't think it's ever possible to get it just will not exist.
7. Real life economy is good to look. If people want something they target where they shop/farm to get the desired product. They don't go to a gas station to look for a covid shot.
8. How about a tab that "quest" items are put that don't fill up my small stash.
9. Someone that's "quits halfway though download goes and watch Netflix" isn't a player only a potential player. So at which point is a player a player realistically? My opinion is after act 10 before that you're trying the game, testing it not a player. Now let's talk about where average actually is. Put realistic parameters on to give context not facetious like the one mentioned at the beginning of this point.
10. Everyone playing the some sort of totem doesn't mean build diversity/viability.
11. How about rotation of skill gems if they are being over played instead of nerf nerf as you seen to scared to put buffs to those skills not played.
I am so down excited for hardmode. I love the philosphy of it
at 55 min the answer to how to make harvest better but not have the numbers change is to make harvest spawns not be a portal, but to be a tradable map item. the numbers will not change because there will be the exact number of harvest spawns as before. plus it will benefit people who do not like running harvest during maps.
On leveling via campaign I don't think D2 is a great example. Most experienced players in that game get rushed and then only level in very specific high exp zones. Or even the most degenerate get glitch rushed for even more instantaneous progression.
It's ok Chris, I love your hard mode idea at least! Can't wait to try it!
Also regarding nerfing: nerfing 10% dmg is different than nerfing 70% dmg and 80% qol
They had a solution to the too many harvest crafts problem in the original iteration of the league. The concept of having lifeforce costs and needing to choose which crafts to use instead of getting them all.
You could preserve the selection of crafting options from plots while limiting the total number of crafts per map by adjusting the lifeforce costs and gains.
The reason this was changed initially was it was frustrating to be short of juice to use a particular craft. But this could have been resolved by showing the exact crafting cost and available lifeforce more clearly. Then you can properly plan which crafts to use without blindly running out prematurely.
honestly the time it took to grow the crops was more than enuf of a ballance point