Yeah. I'm in my 70s, my apm is really low. Playing Starcraft 2 I would have to rely on strategy rather than APM, doesn't work past very hard vs ai. But mechanical is *fine* on skyrim, fallout 4, folon whatever.
@@UteChewb Starcraft is mostly build order memorization, repetiive continuous production and then high apm and control during fights....it's not much of a Strategy game, just in name...
Yeah I get that one to two ms of latency is actually big, and we're always fighting sources of latency (Internet connection, monitor, render pipeline, etc), but I really like the mechanical feedback that I pushed the switch. I tried a mechanical switch that didn't click several years ago and hated it. I'm 42, there will always be demons far better than me, so I'm just going to enjoy my keyboard from 8bitdo that looks very NES esque. Real demons use controllers for aim assist anyway.
@@jorge69696 I'm shit with controller played racing games with a keyboard all my life and I'm way faster on keyboard if I could throttle and steer control on keyboard aside from tapping really fast I would wreck people.
Yes, you can configure (at least on Wooting) to have keys emulate a joystick or other analog input. However keyboards aren't really made for controlled analog input so it's not as precise or intuitive as a joystick.
It's the age of hall effect and optical switches. I finally don't have double clicks on mice with optical switches. I no longer have stick drift on my controllers. I'm looking to buy a hall effect keyboard soon.
"I no longer have stick drift on my controllers" on third party controllers anyway, first party manufacturers will keep on using the shite potentiometer based sticks while cramming their controllers with gimmicks
@@omurize2007 there are plenty of other reasons to buy 3rd party anyway. Sony's idiotic L3/R3 thumb-murderer switches for example... L3/R3 belong on the BACK of the controller or up with the face buttons for a 6-button layout. Just get an 8BitDo. Or a Retro-Bit Saturn Pro.
It's impressive how Wooting implementation of whatever keyboard technology is always done better than others, all that while using a web based software that saves your settings into the keyboard itself. They seem to have good engineers.
@@sodapone that's impossible since HE keyboards are not supported by QMK, but they could probably port the USB code put in there and reference it to make their own, the thing that haven't been maximized is the matrix scanning delay (700hz tachyon mode), but RT is so good that people don't notice it
I love the concept of HE switches, but not the feel. It's almost like I might need two keyboards, one mechanical board for typing and productivity (love the tactile feedback when speed-typing), and then an HE keyboard for gaming during which the tactile feedback is unnecessary. If HE keyboards had a tactile bump emulation you could enable and disable (haptics), this would be the best of both worlds.
For mechanicals, I straight up avoid red-switches for the same reason... no real tactile feedback, just a straight plunge down & back up. As a brown-switch user by preference, I'll say what they actually might want is tactile CLICK emulation. Blue-switches are much more popular than brown, where blue = click feedback & brown = bump feedback. Problem is, to introduce the feedback, they actually need to add mechanical features to the keys... complicating the device & defeating a lot of the advantages of the HE mechanism.
Yeah it's frustrating. HE keyboards are just objectively superior from a functionality perspective, but the typing experience of a good mechanical keyboard is still in a different league. I now have 2 keyboards on my desk permanently and I hate that.
@@kgoblin5084 the reason I more or less only use linear switches is because I rarely see any benefit of having a tactile bump on the keyboard as I will bottom out the keys anyway hence giving that "feedback" of pressing the key down. On a tactile or clicky switches you would be getting 2.
I don't really care about analog controls or gaming features, the biggest advantage for me is reliability. Mechanical switches eventually wear out and double click, and I suppose you can easily replace them with hot-swappable keyboards, but imo a better solution is a switch that doesn't have contacts to wear out, ie hall effect or optical.
@SoulTouchMusic93 how would you repair a mechanical keyboard beyond replacing or cleaning the switches? You can also do that with optical or magnetic switches.
As much as pros are switching to HE keyboards, an even larger majority has ditched it completely for controllers to take advantage of aimbo… I mean aim assist. 😅
@@ProgressivistMeans ???? thats literally what happened to me in apex tho? it was years ago, but picking up controller allowed me to be stable diamond whereas before i struggled to keep plat i quit because of how toxic diamond was tho lol
As a competetive gamer and programmer, I'd really like to try a HE keyboard, but using a split keyboard with thumb clusters has spoiled standard keyboards for me. When a company comes out with a gamepad or an ergo keyboard with HE switches, i'll hop on the bandwagon. But the extra inputs from my thumb clusters are way more useful for me.
I'm pretty sure there aren't really any ergo+mechanical keyboards on the market even, right? And if there are they're probably just red-switches with the worst tactile feedback. It's a pick your poison game in the keyboard market :/. No perfect combo of features for anyone.
An HE keyboard is very over rated. Its better to stick with a normal mechanical keyboard. The amount of force for a mechanical switch (Linear and tactile) is very light. It actually actuates in the middle of pressing down, in other words you don't need to press all the way down with a lot of force. The HE keyboards are worse though (depending on what you do) I find it in my opinion somewhat annoying. When you have your fingers on the keys of an HE keyboard, the switch thinks you are pressing it when you aren’t. Quite a lot of people think mechanical keyboards / switches are harder to press down than membrane which is wrong. Mechanical (Linear and some tactile switches) actually require less force than lets say a Mac Book Pro keyboard. This "advantage" isn't an advantage at all and can be more annoying than a standard keyboard. This "quicker" response time is more of a ploy to make more "gamers" buy them. In other words it's a marketing strategy. I mean look at Razor or Logitech. All of their keyboards are no different than a standard mechanical keyboard, even when they say it gives you an "advantage". It's better to stick with the classic mechanical keyboard / switches. This is not a hate comment or me being judgey I'm just stating the facts and my personal opinion.
A big recent development is Snap Tap, which Razer implemented on their keyboards and Wooting now also has. It's an even bigger advantage in games where counter strafing is very important. I'd assume that other manufacturers like Keychron will implement their own version soon though, so I wouldn't base the decision which HE Keyboard to buy just on that feature.
Honestly its how keyboards should have always worked. It should be embraced and any game that doesnt want it should implement software to block it@@RationalFunction
@@JimmyJimmyBTMwdym? Drunkdeer already has socd available in their beta driver. I already used it but I played valorant and I don't even counter strafe so it's pretty moot
mechanical keyboards are for typing, not gaming. If you enjoy typing, because you're writing or coding, then you'll probably enjoy a mechanical keyboard. It feels comfortable. But gamers are using a keyboard in a very different way and it makes sense to use a different key actuator for that use case.
I'd also argue not all games are the same. Mechanicals are good for RTS, I'd even argue StarCraft is to blame for mechanical keyboards popularity. This is because you need very clear feedback for a key press - blue, arguably brown and good membrane are all offering that. You know exactly how many times you gave an order, you don't mispress. But FPS players use red switches and alike, and I find it absolutely horrible for typing (though some enjoy going on linear) and RTS games. Yet for FPS, racing, if you happen to do that on a keyboard, the haul effect is clearly the most reasonable choice.
I'd argue that mechanical keyboards are simply more affordable to buy than HE. If your statement were true across the whole world, then the keyboard industry would be inundated with HE and Mechanical, and everyone would have both HE and mechanical, or simply HE. But this is not true in rl, and your statement is based off of your ideals of what everyone should do. Do keep in mind everyone does not have the same ideals.
@@Someone-kc9mc Wrong. Mechanical keyboards are for typing, not gaming. False advertising. This video proves it, among others. Mechanical has a floating activation point that you can't activate reliably in a button mashing scenario, and cannot switch states without passing the activation point in two directions. They don't even use the original IBM mechanical spring mechanism, the WHOLE THING is a scam. You wanna have a different opinion? That's your right to use a TECHNICALLY INFERIOR design for gaming that will HANDICAP you against everyone else not using mechanical. If you care about gaming performance more than typing, you won't use mechanical. Membrane users save money and have faster responses, HE users spend money on fancy software features. Both users will have a technical advantage over mechanical. Mechanical gamers are WASTING MONEY on a product designed for typing and HANDICAPPING their gaming performance. The only gaming excuse is a false excuse from IBM DOS era, where key rollover / multi key was a problem playing Doom. Because you had to hold Shift, Alt, Arrow key, and Ctrl at the same time. Cheap membrane keyboards couldn't do this back then, but this problem has been solved for DECADES, and even those keyboards work fine for wasd games. People DON'T EVEN KNOW THIS IS THE HISTORY BEHIND MEMBRANE FOR GAMING. The mechanical argument is all marketing, no reality.
@@Lylcaruis lol. Sure dude, completely don't think about why this makes sense, and make sure you buy a "gamer chair" with your mechanical keyboard. Mechanical keyboards are for typing, not gaming. You know the EXACT actuation point of membrane, it's not some unknown, it's the exact contact point, and can work better for fps or tapping. This isn't about the comfort of typing a word document. Controllers use membrane. They're less prone to mechanical failure as well.
@@JohnDoe-ip3oq membrane keyboards have much lower response times and the debounce time is much longer. Also, some mechanical keyboards have physical feedback for when a keypress is registered
I would love if someone actually bought every wooting clone out there for them to test against each other but also go into the finer details about slightly different actuation behavior like optimum and you did so we can actually see which ones are worth buying especially considering the prices of these keyboards and the different layouts. I personally really want to get a new hall effect keyboard but sadly wooting does not offer the layout Im looking for but I also wanna have hotswap and build quality since I might want to keep that new keyboard for like 5-8 maybe 10 years and just change switches and I think many people want to do that now but I can see that the prices of these keyboards is a problem for this idea. I have checked like 15 different keyboards yesterday and my conclusion to all of them was either "IDK" or "do I really trust this reviewer?" ...
@@zommnbie the Function keys on 89HE are too close together and why in the hell they keep Pause, Ins and Del keys? Who the fck use those keys for fps games?
0.5 ms is immaterial. If games accounted for ‘keypress magnitude’ then Hall effect keys might matter. Also, what happened to full-size keyboards with numpads?
It annoys me so much, that every stupid "we sell our boards exclusively in limited drops and they cost at least 250 bucks" company basically makes the exact same 65-ish percent board. Some are 60%, some 65, some 75. But the "base" seems to be always the same. Really happy I found my current Keychron (full size low profile, available with German ISO layout, has 4 extra buttons above the numpad you can use for whatever you want and it uses VIA for customisation...what more could I want?).
Both Wooting and Keychron make 'hall effect' keyboards in full 104+ layouts. It's just that most people who use PCs for gaming have little use for the numpad, and having more room to mouse is the superior option. I've gone to an '80%' TKL keyboard (from Royal Kludge) at home for the extra desk room, but use a full size keyboard at work. That said, I could probably switch to TKL there too with minimal impact aside from the extra mouse room.
I had the same thought. Also for different type of games; I hate that every "gaming" anything seems to think only FPSs exist. My genre of choice is fighting games and I dabble in Osu (mania). These don't sound ideal for either with the settings described. I also hate linear switches in general, but that's more of a "me" thing and not fair to complain about.
this technology could open to very interesting developments for gaming controllers. If you can activate a key just barely touching it, imagine doing complex combos just sliding over the keys in different ways for instance.
You can do that on games that support controller input, it just sometimes has jank because games aren't used to having analogue input on the keyboard and then a mouse alongside. It works but sometimes there's lag because the hud might switch between keyboard and controller format every frame. If a game was designed to facilitate this kind of input then it would work flawlessly.
@@itoastpotatoes399 For that to work the keyboard firmware would have to send a key press, but also (let's call it) a velocity value. Is this even possible with QMK? I'd love to have it too.
@@modraccin9514 HE keyboards can do this because the keyboard firmware receives a value which indicates exactly how far the key is pressed down; it then takes that value and translates it into a joystick input along the axis specified by the user. For instance, if you press the w key halfway down, the keyboard would take the input "w key halfway pressed" and then tell the computer "left joystick pushed halfway up", if you pressed the w key all the way down the keyboard would say "left joystick pushed all the way up"
This 100%! It's been all or nothing with keyboards while controllers have had that benefit since N64/PS1 era or earlier, even controller buttons have had this ability for many years (og Xbox?) To be able to move slowly with a light touch would change keyboard gameplay so much for so many games.
@@modraccin9514 Well, afaik QMK doesn't do hall effect switches, but it would certainly be possible to implement. Though, you wouldn't do it as a "velocity value" if you want it to work with existing software. You would just have the keyboard tell the computer it's both a keyboard and a gamepad, and then the assigned keys send both the key, and an analog stick position on the gamepad.
Looks cool. I was going to write it off on account of it not having any media keys (a keyboard without is a complete non-starter for me). But it looks like their config utility is quite comprehensive (and even works on Linux, w00t!) and by default has Fn binds for media keys, so I might actually consider it. And apparently it even allows using the magnet effect to do 'analog input' - something I've genuinely thought would be really cool to have for decades.
Love the video thank you for this. Currently using a membrane keyboard from Corsair that is rusting, so I gotta figure out a new keyboard in the coming years, and the Wooting is what I had my eye on. Means I'll have a good foundational understanding for the market research I'll need to do when that comes time.
I still have my Sidewinder Pro joystick, that I bought new, and it still works great. The box claimed it was 100% digital and I believe it. I've modded it to work in Windows 11and have been using it flawlessly in my all my simulation titles.
The latency reduction must be insane for longjumping and accurate strafing I remember using old office keyboard and mouse for cs 1.6 and could barely jump 245 distance and anything over 250 was a 5% chance. After switching to even a cheap gaming peripherals I could consistantly do 250 and even 255 at least 30% of the time. New equipment should allow for 90% chance of consistant 255 jumps
I just had a thought. What if an artist learns how to use HE keyboards and connects each key to a single colour (or note for audio) and learns to play it whilst using a pen tablet (for pics) or just keyboard (for audio) you have a new way to transfer artistry into the computer.
It's interesting how much engineering and acceptance of 'expensive' keyboards have come a long way from since I was a teen. During the old days (~24 years back), my friends and I would offer to buy a new keyboard for folks with older and trade with their worn out (but higher quality) membrane keyboards to play games precisely because of this. A good quality membrane keyboard uses a thin plastic divider between 2 plastic sheets with conductive traces as the 'switch' (cheaper membrane keebs used a carbon piece on the dome itself that causes other issues). Hence, the actual actuation travel is sub-1mm if the top of the membrane 'striker' is held just above the top sheet. We'd play with the dome held in the depressed position just above the sheets to reduce the key travel needed to activate the keys. A worn out keeb would offer lower resistance which is more comfortable to hold in that position. Due to the physical design, a membrane keyboard using the plastic sheets has a shorter debounce period than a keyboard that uses metal contact leaf and offered lower latency response as well. This technique basically allowed us to game with 'lower' keypress latency since we had a shorter travel + shorter debounce latency. This obviously doesn't quite exactly work the same these days since the polling rates, controller speeds, and NKRO matters significantly (back then it was just PS2 without having to deal with USB polling rates and NKRO wasn't particularly well known as an issue). Not to mention, a worn out membrane keyboard just feels really mushy and lacks the tactility for regular productivity work.
Oh, I've got a keyboard like that in uni. I was in Italy at the time and the guy was like "I gotta discount it because we've got a few and they're American layout" and I was like "perfect" because games usually come in that layout and that's what I was used to from my country. I've killed 2 of those with orange juice. And I couldn't even fix it because those silver contacts would "rust" out just by a fingerprint.
believe me or not, i'm still using keyboard that is 18 years old. ps/2 still present so why not? I was trying to use mechanical keyboards, but after so many notebooks in my uni and work, I just can't use mechanical ones home and use my scissor membrane ps/2 keyboard that lived through 8 or 9 PCs.
@@divinityai That's fine and all. Much like how mech keebs have so much customisability, it boils down to what you like. If membranes work for you then that's what you should be using. I do like the membrane tactility from the past but dislike how wobbly/ mushy a lot of them feel so I customised my setup with box tactiles that give a similar feedback but don't wobble as much.
I used to play counterstrike competitively back in the day when membrane keyboards were still used more often than mechanical. The reason I even moved to mechanical is because most membrane boards do not support NKRO. Every game has different needs, but I type a lot so the feel and sound of the switches matter. The innovation we really need in the keyboard space is better stabilizers.
Keychron Q1 Max user here. I decided to go with mechanical switches on purpose. It's the sound and feeling of HE switches that do not even come close to mechanical ones. And as I also write quite a lot with my PC, I simply took the Q1 Max. Maybe in a couple of years, I might switch to HE switches when they sound and feel as nice as mechanical ones.
I can honestly say after using my Wooting 60HE+, it’s awesome and it feels so good… worth every penny. Agree on the settings for the Wooting, rarely will you set it to full sensitivity, you will likely accidentally trigger other keys if you aren’t careful. What makes an he keyboard is indeed the rapid trigger… it’s so natural feeling.
This helped so much! I'm currently stuck between purchasing the Keychron Q1 HE, or the Lemokey P1 pro. Gaming is my main focus and I'm really struggling to decide which one to go with. The only mechanical keyboard I've ever used is the corsair K70r for many years now and have never tried HE.
There is maybe 1% of gamers that the tiny increased reaction time of the key would make any difference at all. I doubt even all of the pro gamers would even benefit from the tiny advantage these types of keys would give you beyond perhaps a placebo effect. The only real reason I can see switching from a quality mechanical keyboard to an HE keyboard would be if you dont like the mechanical keyboard sound or feel and like the sound and feel of an HE keyboard better. I cant stand membrane keyboards which is why I use a mechanical keyboard and I actually like the clicky clacks my keyboard makes. 0.5 - 1ms on my keyboard does nothing for me when my ping or even just my brain is not going to react that much faster too. Just like how there is no difference if your FPS is 200 or 400 if your refresh rate is still only 60hz.
Very informative. I know I live my Wooting 60HE. So much I'm thinking of the 80He. Thanks for the tech behind the tech discussion points. I love tha nerd stuff. That's what makes me by stuff. 😊
It seems the greatest benefit with Wooting keyboards is their software. They are the only gaming keyboard maker I am aware of that does not have loads of people complaining about problems getting the software to work properly (online). I bought a Razer Huntsman V2 from Amazon and I was not even able to install the software properly when I tried. Luckily it was easy to return because it was from Amazon. So, I have ordered a Wooting HE 2.
I’ll switch when there’s QMK for HE keyboards and the start of an open-source community of people building them in all sorts of different styles and layouts. As it is, you can only choose between a handful of 60-65% layouts all with proprietary software.
Hmmm,... having just fairly recently bought a new keyboard means I am probably locked in until that one kicks the bucket. With some luck, that will be quite a few years. But I really wish I had seen this video beforehand. It may have affected my buying decisions. Great Video!
This is pretty cool using magnets. I can see this evolving to provide analog input from the keyboard. Of course I'm going to find a hard time justifying its use myself.
I love my Cherry MX speed silver switches for gaming, but I find it really hard to type with. I wish I had the option to change the distance out of games
I was on a board with Cherry Speed Silvers and now switched to the Wooting 60HE+. In my opinion the difference is insane. The hall effect switches are so much better for gaming and I find them easier to type on because of the adjustable actuation point. Rapid trigger and tighter actuation makes them feel really good for playing CS for example. Also the sound is way more pleasant (comparing a Corsair K65 RGB mini to a Wooting 60HE+ module in an Alumaze case)
You forgot to mention about analog optical switches. The best keyboards to buy right now are either Wooting HE or Razer Huntsman V3 Pro. Performance and feature set wise they're the same, much better than everything else. You get former if you prefer better sounding one, you get latter if you prefer prettier and easier to synchronize with rest of your setup RGB lights. Your "what pros use" graphs shows that too.
Wooting also has no crappy bloatware software you have to download and keep updated and hogging system resources. They have an online portal to make changes to settings and then you just flash that to the keyboard memory.
The graph perfectly shows that it doesn't matter what keyboard you use. a mare 10+% of pros use hall effect switches (mostly FPS players), while majority of pros use whatever they are sponsored with. The biggest benefit to HE switches is that regular mechanical keyboards (even premium ones) have become cheap.
Keys with adjustable hysteresis could be used for a variety of purposes. But I wonder about regular typing of documentation. Will a person be able to maximize typing speed with a hall effect keyboard? Also, each finger is a little different so maybe the keystroke data from a typing session could be used to make individual adjustments to each key to increase young performance.
The difference in response time between mechanical and HE is not enough to make any sort of difference in reality. The keys also feel quite dead compared to many mechanical switches. It may make an extremely tiny difference at the highest level for a pro player, but for any mortal its an irrelevant amount of time. The science is fascinating behind it, and its cool to see the differences, but you should play with what feels best to you because that's what will give you the confidence to perform consistently.
Analog is useful if whatever you are using it for is setup to take advantage of it. Even more so if you want to use an analog stick and mouse at the same time. Otherwise it's either all are working at the same time, or it's choose one and we'll disable the other
Great video! However, I think you missed a very important point. I suppose it depends on what type of games you play. But the largest benefit to key sensitivity, I think, is stopping yourself from accidentally pressing the key. For example, in league of legends, you don't want to fat finger your F/D (Flash) key while pressing R (ultimate). So you could set those to require more delibirate presses. Maybe in shooters it could prevent you from accidentally throwing a grenade or whatnot, while keeping WASD very sensitive.
I doubt this is gonna make any difference, it's more a gimmick than an actual next best thing. this HE keyboard may be a bit superior on paper in terms of latency... if all of your reactions didn't happen in subconscious level (spoiler : they do and it's totally out of your control. have you ever had a 'why the hell did I do that' moment? that's an example of it).
Except they're not used for just lower latency. These kinds of keyboards quite literally have tech that will give you a competitive advantage like rapid trigger or snap tap. There's a reason why every pro esport player and gaming nerds are switching to these keyboards,
@@whentheyD except they're not? Lmao the only thing that is banned is snap tap for csgo. Why would every pro and streamer use a he keyboard if they were banned LMFAO
No mention of preloading the keys though. For some games where a planned response is common, using mechanical you preload right up to the edge of the activation point so that tiny latency is even less relevant. With HE you have to set some dead space to avoid errors, but there's no way to preload since there's no tactile feedback. In some situations then, HE could be more laggy. However, I think it's really a lot of personal style, gameplay, and budget. I've never liked the feel of linear or membrane, but that's just me. So, have fun with whatever works for you.
The latency of a mechanical key press event point is kinda moot. You can get very touchy switches and no one wants a touch keyboard which would have 0 travel and hence 0ms key press length. You could even go negative key press latency with something like a light/laser sensor triggering on increasing proximity to the switch. Then you can get your actuation point all the way to the ceiling fan. The rapid trigger thing makes sense though.
It's worth talking about the feel of a switch and what that means for the typing/gaming experience. For me, a lot of optical switches feel dead or mushy. Yes, an optical or HE switch might be slightly faster, but if they are unpleasant or distracting to use, it's a pass from me.
I've been using a Wooting Two HE for about a year now and I can't see myself ever going to anything else. The keyboard it replaced was a Razer Blackwidow V3 which is no slouch, but the Wooting is just so much better. A huge selling point for me is Wooting requires no software to be installed on your computer. All the configuration settings can be done on Wooting's website and stored to the keyboard and that means no bloatware gobbling up precious computer real estate.
before I found out about keyboard switches I always thought hall effect was how all keyboards actually worked. HE is much more intuitive for non technical users
Hang on a second......doesn't Hall Effects keys mean that you can in theory make it possible to base movement speed off the amount the key is pressed to result in the character slow mo walking forward when barely pressed, normal walking when half pressed and then sprinting when fully pressed? Basically making it possible to have controller's variable movement speed on keyboard.
@@Kreege I've researched it and there are multiple kinds of forces and that is not the one that creates the feel of the switch. There is the start force, actuation force and end force and the black has a lot higher end force. I could be wrong and I wish I was because the Wooting is my dream keyboard and the only thing I want is a similiar heaviness of the black switches because it feels so nice to have your fingers be braked by the switch instead of just slamming into the keyboard.
Does rollover not negate most of the arguments regarding counter-strafing?
2 месяца назад
I used a Philips mechanical keyboard from 1989 to 2023, when finally the left shift got sticky (not fully broken). Now I use a 1991 Olivetti mechanical keyboard. I still have an IBM mechanical for the last part of my life. I'm not switching to hall effect.
If you like vintage keyboards, HE switches aren't anything new. Honeywell and Zbrojovka Brno had used HE switches since 80s, they are pretty good. Btw what model is your philips, quite interested as there aren't many vintage philips boards.
I wonder if you could use this to give analog speed control in game based on HE sensor readings of whatever key you use for acceleration. I could see this being advantageous in racing sims for example.
So from what I´ve heard you can "simulate" an analog stick with these things. However, due to the cost, I´d prefer a hybrid where your standard WASD and maybe shift are HE switches. The others dont need to be, keeping cost down.
I have been using a linear optical switch with less travel and pressure required to activate. This allows me to get less delay to present and be more responsive alot like the he keys. But... I get to keep the set point that's fixed to start and release. With very little use I quickly found this meant I could feather the activation point to fly a space ship say and be able to make smoothing adjustments etc. Ideally if I could get a keyboard that allowed for outputs that you could set the activation and endpoints on you could use one key as a normal switch and set the point it actions, then set another to use .2mm pressed as 1% and fully depressed as 100% and use it as a throttle say. Or have a key that has a level one activation for most of the stroke and a full depression would be able to output a second command, much like a two stage trigger in some joysticks. Keyboards... are getting better and hopefully even more nice options will be developed.
2-4ms is so small. Just to paint a picture, your game and monitor MUST be running at AT LEAST 250-500 fps for this latency to consistently show up one frame earlier. Of course, even if the character starts moving on the same frame, it will be a few pixels over which can compound (if the game had their input code well written and with sub-frame input in mind). I'm not saying this is useless. But for most gamers it is. For most gamers, there are a lot of upgrades that needs to be done before making this switch a worthwhile investment, given that the price difference is not negligible. Heck, I'd even say that if you are not on the top 20% on ranked your skill isn't even good enough to have a noticeable advantage by using an HE keyboard. But I do concede that not having a fixed travel point for actuation and release must feel really good. All this will be null if the analog value can be used by the game.
Could you please test the Drunkdeer and ATK HE keyboards? I haven't seen any coverage of the ATK boards and the reviews of Drunkdeer boards are purely subjective, and include no objective measurements like yours
i see the HE keyboards used for the analogue input - no need to buy a gamepad for certain games and buttons would be infinitely more resilient than even the best HE thumbsticks, not to mention that the keycaps and switches are easily replaceable
4:50 Literally shows why all your "rapid reset and low actuation point" reasoning fails. When you let go, the character jerks to the left due to it registering the key resetting as an input. This is just 8 minutes of you going "I have a skill issue".
I want the keyboard to have no clicking sound from a mechanical and hall effect keyboard. No need to lubricate and all that hassle. Just a good mute keyboard for night gaming.
I use a mechanical keyboard bc as a left handed player, i use the numpad (8123 keys), bc of this i need a razor kb to manually adjust some keys via software. As well as needing the multi press capabilities of a mechanical kb. The numpad is notorious for not being setup for pressing more than 2-3 keys at once on many, if not most, kb's. If they fix this on a hall effect kb, i'd try one.
what is so dificult about making it right? You just need to program it to have an adjustable actuation point for any kay (ether all together or individually) and make it release as soon as you lift you finger. The rest is just build quality. But for that, there should be a standard. The benefits are obvious. Not only can you reduce latency time you need to activate/deactivate you key press, but it also would remove the need for a fake latency added to compensate bounce and debounce timings. (Times the keyboard has to wait for the contacts to settly, before counting an input as an input to not register rapid key presses and releases.) Since you now only have these bounces (if in the first place) AFTER you have already pressed/released the key, at the end of your keystroke, your actual inputs starting points would be unefected in timings. If your HE keyboard doesn't account for that, it is indeed a bad product.
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I've always figured the largest source of latency when I'm gaming is my brain. 🙂
Yup. I am 56. He wasted on me. Mechanical will do just fine. I like the clicks.
Yeah. I'm in my 70s, my apm is really low. Playing Starcraft 2 I would have to rely on strategy rather than APM, doesn't work past very hard vs ai. But mechanical is *fine* on skyrim, fallout 4, folon whatever.
@@UteChewb Starcraft is mostly build order memorization, repetiive continuous production and then high apm and control during fights....it's not much of a Strategy game, just in name...
Yeah I get that one to two ms of latency is actually big, and we're always fighting sources of latency (Internet connection, monitor, render pipeline, etc), but I really like the mechanical feedback that I pushed the switch. I tried a mechanical switch that didn't click several years ago and hated it. I'm 42, there will always be demons far better than me, so I'm just going to enjoy my keyboard from 8bitdo that looks very NES esque. Real demons use controllers for aim assist anyway.
Human reaction time is, what, 100-300ms? I don't think that 2ms from the keyboard is making a difference.
This may enable analog level of controls in some games like racing.
While yes, it's better to use a gamepad or a wheel still.
@@jorge69696 I'm shit with controller played racing games with a keyboard all my life and I'm way faster on keyboard if I could throttle and steer control on keyboard aside from tapping really fast I would wreck people.
@@cin2110same here
Yes, you can configure (at least on Wooting) to have keys emulate a joystick or other analog input. However keyboards aren't really made for controlled analog input so it's not as precise or intuitive as a joystick.
@@cin2110wheel players entered the chat
as a War thunder player for a sec i thought the title said ''Why everyone's switching to High Explosive keyboards (AND WHY YOU SHOULD TOO)''🤯🤯🤯
so true
I would love to see a High Explosive keyboard 😂😂😂😂
Hell ye just wait till they release AP keyboards
Mossad sends their regards
That would just make your desk a computer console from Star Trek, explosions everywhere.
It's the age of hall effect and optical switches. I finally don't have double clicks on mice with optical switches. I no longer have stick drift on my controllers. I'm looking to buy a hall effect keyboard soon.
Maybe you'll get some keystroke drift next haha
hahaha good for you ig, but i have never seen things that aren't "double edge" in this world we live in.
my point is there is always a catch or more.
"I no longer have stick drift on my controllers" on third party controllers anyway, first party manufacturers will keep on using the shite potentiometer based sticks while cramming their controllers with gimmicks
@@omurize2007 there are plenty of other reasons to buy 3rd party anyway. Sony's idiotic L3/R3 thumb-murderer switches for example... L3/R3 belong on the BACK of the controller or up with the face buttons for a 6-button layout. Just get an 8BitDo.
Or a Retro-Bit Saturn Pro.
@@AnomalousVixelthis comment is so stupid
It's impressive how Wooting implementation of whatever keyboard technology is always done better than others, all that while using a web based software that saves your settings into the keyboard itself.
They seem to have good engineers.
and also flawless linux support since one of the founders uses linux
@@zmeyka3310 this is great to hear.. linux rules.
Do they use QMK/VIA? That might take care of the hard parts for them.
They should make Topre keyboards and slap HHKB in the face lol
@@sodapone that's impossible since HE keyboards are not supported by QMK, but they could probably port the USB code put in there and reference it to make their own, the thing that haven't been maximized is the matrix scanning delay (700hz tachyon mode), but RT is so good that people don't notice it
I love the concept of HE switches, but not the feel. It's almost like I might need two keyboards, one mechanical board for typing and productivity (love the tactile feedback when speed-typing), and then an HE keyboard for gaming during which the tactile feedback is unnecessary. If HE keyboards had a tactile bump emulation you could enable and disable (haptics), this would be the best of both worlds.
For mechanicals, I straight up avoid red-switches for the same reason... no real tactile feedback, just a straight plunge down & back up.
As a brown-switch user by preference, I'll say what they actually might want is tactile CLICK emulation. Blue-switches are much more popular than brown, where blue = click feedback & brown = bump feedback.
Problem is, to introduce the feedback, they actually need to add mechanical features to the keys... complicating the device & defeating a lot of the advantages of the HE mechanism.
Yeah it's frustrating. HE keyboards are just objectively superior from a functionality perspective, but the typing experience of a good mechanical keyboard is still in a different league. I now have 2 keyboards on my desk permanently and I hate that.
@@kgoblin5084 the reason I more or less only use linear switches is because I rarely see any benefit of having a tactile bump on the keyboard as I will bottom out the keys anyway hence giving that "feedback" of pressing the key down. On a tactile or clicky switches you would be getting 2.
@@zerdyx9597Exactly, you get feedback from bottoming out. Bumpy or clicky keys slow my typing speed
Writing and programming is way better Witz tactiles - less typos. At least for me
I don't really care about analog controls or gaming features, the biggest advantage for me is reliability. Mechanical switches eventually wear out and double click, and I suppose you can easily replace them with hot-swappable keyboards, but imo a better solution is a switch that doesn't have contacts to wear out, ie hall effect or optical.
@cpfyp3548 they're not mechanical. They can fail ig, but it's rare and they won't wear out with use
You could go the other way and say that I'd rather have a mechanical because when it breaks it's fixable vs something fully electronic
@SoulTouchMusic93 how would you repair a mechanical keyboard beyond replacing or cleaning the switches? You can also do that with optical or magnetic switches.
I have to admit. Never witnessed a mechanical switch fail. Also i think wear is still a concern of hall effect too
the matrix reference in the thumbnail is very much on point, pick your poison i guess
As much as pros are switching to HE keyboards, an even larger majority has ditched it completely for controllers to take advantage of aimbo… I mean aim assist. 😅
COD streamers in particular
If the game aims for me it's not worth playing that game.
Apex players in general.
Lol, your peripheral of choice isn't why you can't get out of gold my man.
@@ProgressivistMeans ???? thats literally what happened to me in apex tho? it was years ago, but picking up controller allowed me to be stable diamond whereas before i struggled to keep plat
i quit because of how toxic diamond was tho lol
As a competetive gamer and programmer, I'd really like to try a HE keyboard, but using a split keyboard with thumb clusters has spoiled standard keyboards for me.
When a company comes out with a gamepad or an ergo keyboard with HE switches, i'll hop on the bandwagon. But the extra inputs from my thumb clusters are way more useful for me.
I'm pretty sure there aren't really any ergo+mechanical keyboards on the market even, right? And if there are they're probably just red-switches with the worst tactile feedback.
It's a pick your poison game in the keyboard market :/. No perfect combo of features for anyone.
@@kgoblin5084The Lulu by boardsource
@@kgoblin5084 You can get customized Kinesis keyboards with whatever keyswitch you want, though it's from a 3rd party.
An HE keyboard is very over rated. Its better to stick with a normal mechanical keyboard. The amount of force for a mechanical switch (Linear and tactile) is very light. It actually actuates in the middle of pressing down, in other words you don't need to press all the way down with a lot of force. The HE keyboards are worse though (depending on what you do) I find it in my opinion somewhat annoying. When you have your fingers on the keys of an HE keyboard, the switch thinks you are pressing it when you aren’t. Quite a lot of people think mechanical keyboards / switches are harder to press down than membrane which is wrong. Mechanical (Linear and some tactile switches) actually require less force than lets say a Mac Book Pro keyboard. This "advantage" isn't an advantage at all and can be more annoying than a standard keyboard. This "quicker" response time is more of a ploy to make more "gamers" buy them. In other words it's a marketing strategy. I mean look at Razor or Logitech. All of their keyboards are no different than a standard mechanical keyboard, even when they say it gives you an "advantage". It's better to stick with the classic mechanical keyboard / switches. This is not a hate comment or me being judgey I'm just stating the facts and my personal opinion.
A big recent development is Snap Tap, which Razer implemented on their keyboards and Wooting now also has. It's an even bigger advantage in games where counter strafing is very important. I'd assume that other manufacturers like Keychron will implement their own version soon though, so I wouldn't base the decision which HE Keyboard to buy just on that feature.
It's cheating, it's basically macros. Just like the infamous ASUS wireframe driver.
(The quakeworld community is so mad)
Honestly its how keyboards should have always worked. It should be embraced and any game that doesnt want it should implement software to block it@@RationalFunction
if only drunkdeer would copy it like how they copied wootings web software
@@JimmyJimmyBTMI heard those are pretty solid, but be careful when you’re updating firmware lol
@@JimmyJimmyBTMwdym? Drunkdeer already has socd available in their beta driver. I already used it but I played valorant and I don't even counter strafe so it's pretty moot
Being able to adjust the actuation point on each key is a killer feature.
mechanical keyboards are for typing, not gaming. If you enjoy typing, because you're writing or coding, then you'll probably enjoy a mechanical keyboard. It feels comfortable. But gamers are using a keyboard in a very different way and it makes sense to use a different key actuator for that use case.
I'd also argue not all games are the same. Mechanicals are good for RTS, I'd even argue StarCraft is to blame for mechanical keyboards popularity. This is because you need very clear feedback for a key press - blue, arguably brown and good membrane are all offering that. You know exactly how many times you gave an order, you don't mispress. But FPS players use red switches and alike, and I find it absolutely horrible for typing (though some enjoy going on linear) and RTS games. Yet for FPS, racing, if you happen to do that on a keyboard, the haul effect is clearly the most reasonable choice.
ye, I'm a coder -- i absolutely will not give up my mechanical keyboard. when i play games i usually just use a gamepad
Membrane keyboards were superior until hall effect, but still win on price.
I'd argue that mechanical keyboards are simply more affordable to buy than HE. If your statement were true across the whole world, then the keyboard industry would be inundated with HE and Mechanical, and everyone would have both HE and mechanical, or simply HE. But this is not true in rl, and your statement is based off of your ideals of what everyone should do. Do keep in mind everyone does not have the same ideals.
@@Someone-kc9mc Wrong. Mechanical keyboards are for typing, not gaming. False advertising. This video proves it, among others. Mechanical has a floating activation point that you can't activate reliably in a button mashing scenario, and cannot switch states without passing the activation point in two directions. They don't even use the original IBM mechanical spring mechanism, the WHOLE THING is a scam. You wanna have a different opinion? That's your right to use a TECHNICALLY INFERIOR design for gaming that will HANDICAP you against everyone else not using mechanical. If you care about gaming performance more than typing, you won't use mechanical. Membrane users save money and have faster responses, HE users spend money on fancy software features. Both users will have a technical advantage over mechanical. Mechanical gamers are WASTING MONEY on a product designed for typing and HANDICAPPING their gaming performance. The only gaming excuse is a false excuse from IBM DOS era, where key rollover / multi key was a problem playing Doom. Because you had to hold Shift, Alt, Arrow key, and Ctrl at the same time. Cheap membrane keyboards couldn't do this back then, but this problem has been solved for DECADES, and even those keyboards work fine for wasd games. People DON'T EVEN KNOW THIS IS THE HISTORY BEHIND MEMBRANE FOR GAMING. The mechanical argument is all marketing, no reality.
For most people the breaking point is the price. You can buy/build a good mech keyboard for under 100$, or even closer to 50$
Gateron red 75% wireless bluetooth and wired is 65, with a volume knob aka Epomaker RK75
Membrane keyboards are better for gaming and cheaper than mechanical. You don't buy mechanical for gaming. It's false advertisement.
@@JohnDoe-ip3oq this is bait right
@@Lylcaruis lol. Sure dude, completely don't think about why this makes sense, and make sure you buy a "gamer chair" with your mechanical keyboard. Mechanical keyboards are for typing, not gaming. You know the EXACT actuation point of membrane, it's not some unknown, it's the exact contact point, and can work better for fps or tapping. This isn't about the comfort of typing a word document. Controllers use membrane. They're less prone to mechanical failure as well.
@@JohnDoe-ip3oq membrane keyboards have much lower response times and the debounce time is much longer. Also, some mechanical keyboards have physical feedback for when a keypress is registered
I would love if someone actually bought every wooting clone out there for them to test against each other but also go into the finer details about slightly different actuation behavior like optimum and you did so we can actually see which ones are worth buying especially considering the prices of these keyboards and the different layouts. I personally really want to get a new hall effect keyboard but sadly wooting does not offer the layout Im looking for but I also wanna have hotswap and build quality since I might want to keep that new keyboard for like 5-8 maybe 10 years and just change switches and I think many people want to do that now but I can see that the prices of these keyboards is a problem for this idea. I have checked like 15 different keyboards yesterday and my conclusion to all of them was either "IDK" or "do I really trust this reviewer?" ...
Which layout are you looking for?
@@zommnbie Compact TKL where the F Keys are right above the numbers and same with the keys to the right where they haev no space in between
@@Scopiiii have you seen the 80he?
@@zommnbie the Function keys on 89HE are too close together and why in the hell they keep Pause, Ins and Del keys? Who the fck use those keys for fps games?
@@hammerfall6666 Who the hell uses anything past a 60% keeb for fps? The 80HE is clearly for work and play
Deceptive title. Title says "everyone", but the video just talks entirely about gamers.
It’s a gaming channel lol
The Wallstreet has been infamous for using HE keyboards to execute trades 1ms faster than their competition
100%
0.5 ms is immaterial. If games accounted for ‘keypress magnitude’ then Hall effect keys might matter.
Also, what happened to full-size keyboards with numpads?
It annoys me so much, that every stupid "we sell our boards exclusively in limited drops and they cost at least 250 bucks" company basically makes the exact same 65-ish percent board. Some are 60%, some 65, some 75. But the "base" seems to be always the same. Really happy I found my current Keychron (full size low profile, available with German ISO layout, has 4 extra buttons above the numpad you can use for whatever you want and it uses VIA for customisation...what more could I want?).
numpads and the homerow are useless for 99% of people outside of the office.
Both Wooting and Keychron make 'hall effect' keyboards in full 104+ layouts. It's just that most people who use PCs for gaming have little use for the numpad, and having more room to mouse is the superior option. I've gone to an '80%' TKL keyboard (from Royal Kludge) at home for the extra desk room, but use a full size keyboard at work. That said, I could probably switch to TKL there too with minimal impact aside from the extra mouse room.
Well most people aren’t crunching numbers and using excel sheets while gaming so not really any use for a second set of numbers.
@@FatherBoots flight sim says where’s my keypad
Not having pressure actuation from console to keyboard always bugged me so I'm definitely making the switch! Good video 😎👍
How about for typing? I could envision these HE keyboards being annoying af 😅
I had the same thought.
Also for different type of games; I hate that every "gaming" anything seems to think only FPSs exist. My genre of choice is fighting games and I dabble in Osu (mania). These don't sound ideal for either with the settings described.
I also hate linear switches in general, but that's more of a "me" thing and not fair to complain about.
Why? You can set an actuation point so it works like any other linear switch keyboard.
Mines been really good for typing cuz I just made a typing preset and put the actuation point exactly where I like it
@@ZeroStrife1396as a coder, I love low profile linears - really is personal preference lol
@@DrathVader why would he go all the way to buy a HE keyboard just to use it like a mech key?
this technology could open to very interesting developments for gaming controllers. If you can activate a key just barely touching it, imagine doing complex combos just sliding over the keys in different ways for instance.
Just watch how tetris pros hit controller. Your mind will be blown.
@@Rauw Oh, I've seen that, weird and cool at the same time
I’d love to see a key press have an analog effect such that e.g. the farther down you press [A], the faster you strafe left.
You can do that on games that support controller input, it just sometimes has jank because games aren't used to having analogue input on the keyboard and then a mouse alongside. It works but sometimes there's lag because the hud might switch between keyboard and controller format every frame.
If a game was designed to facilitate this kind of input then it would work flawlessly.
@@itoastpotatoes399 For that to work the keyboard firmware would have to send a key press, but also (let's call it) a velocity value. Is this even possible with QMK? I'd love to have it too.
@@modraccin9514 HE keyboards can do this because the keyboard firmware receives a value which indicates exactly how far the key is pressed down; it then takes that value and translates it into a joystick input along the axis specified by the user. For instance, if you press the w key halfway down, the keyboard would take the input "w key halfway pressed" and then tell the computer "left joystick pushed halfway up", if you pressed the w key all the way down the keyboard would say "left joystick pushed all the way up"
This 100%! It's been all or nothing with keyboards while controllers have had that benefit since N64/PS1 era or earlier, even controller buttons have had this ability for many years (og Xbox?) To be able to move slowly with a light touch would change keyboard gameplay so much for so many games.
@@modraccin9514 Well, afaik QMK doesn't do hall effect switches, but it would certainly be possible to implement. Though, you wouldn't do it as a "velocity value" if you want it to work with existing software. You would just have the keyboard tell the computer it's both a keyboard and a gamepad, and then the assigned keys send both the key, and an analog stick position on the gamepad.
techless up there with optimum tech for best tech content
Only 80k subs... You're one of the most professional and useful reviewer I've seen on youtube. I hope you get more recognition in the following years!
Looks cool.
I was going to write it off on account of it not having any media keys (a keyboard without is a complete non-starter for me).
But it looks like their config utility is quite comprehensive (and even works on Linux, w00t!) and by default has Fn binds for media keys, so I might actually consider it.
And apparently it even allows using the magnet effect to do 'analog input' - something I've genuinely thought would be really cool to have for decades.
very good explanation. intuitive and simple.
Love the video thank you for this. Currently using a membrane keyboard from Corsair that is rusting, so I gotta figure out a new keyboard in the coming years, and the Wooting is what I had my eye on. Means I'll have a good foundational understanding for the market research I'll need to do when that comes time.
Get a neo80 or keychron or something actually nice to type on in that price point.
Your videos are really well made
I still have my Sidewinder Pro joystick, that I bought new, and it still works great. The box claimed it was 100% digital and I believe it. I've modded it to work in Windows 11and have been using it flawlessly in my all my simulation titles.
The latency reduction must be insane for longjumping and accurate strafing
I remember using old office keyboard and mouse for cs 1.6 and could barely jump 245 distance and anything over 250 was a 5% chance. After switching to even a cheap gaming peripherals I could consistantly do 250 and even 255 at least 30% of the time. New equipment should allow for 90% chance of consistant 255 jumps
I just had a thought. What if an artist learns how to use HE keyboards and connects each key to a single colour (or note for audio) and learns to play it whilst using a pen tablet (for pics) or just keyboard (for audio) you have a new way to transfer artistry into the computer.
It's interesting how much engineering and acceptance of 'expensive' keyboards have come a long way from since I was a teen.
During the old days (~24 years back), my friends and I would offer to buy a new keyboard for folks with older and trade with their worn out (but higher quality) membrane keyboards to play games precisely because of this.
A good quality membrane keyboard uses a thin plastic divider between 2 plastic sheets with conductive traces as the 'switch' (cheaper membrane keebs used a carbon piece on the dome itself that causes other issues).
Hence, the actual actuation travel is sub-1mm if the top of the membrane 'striker' is held just above the top sheet. We'd play with the dome held in the depressed position just above the sheets to reduce the key travel needed to activate the keys. A worn out keeb would offer lower resistance which is more comfortable to hold in that position.
Due to the physical design, a membrane keyboard using the plastic sheets has a shorter debounce period than a keyboard that uses metal contact leaf and offered lower latency response as well.
This technique basically allowed us to game with 'lower' keypress latency since we had a shorter travel + shorter debounce latency.
This obviously doesn't quite exactly work the same these days since the polling rates, controller speeds, and NKRO matters significantly (back then it was just PS2 without having to deal with USB polling rates and NKRO wasn't particularly well known as an issue). Not to mention, a worn out membrane keyboard just feels really mushy and lacks the tactility for regular productivity work.
Oh, I've got a keyboard like that in uni. I was in Italy at the time and the guy was like "I gotta discount it because we've got a few and they're American layout" and I was like "perfect" because games usually come in that layout and that's what I was used to from my country. I've killed 2 of those with orange juice. And I couldn't even fix it because those silver contacts would "rust" out just by a fingerprint.
believe me or not, i'm still using keyboard that is 18 years old. ps/2 still present so why not? I was trying to use mechanical keyboards, but after so many notebooks in my uni and work, I just can't use mechanical ones home and use my scissor membrane ps/2 keyboard that lived through 8 or 9 PCs.
@@divinityai That's fine and all. Much like how mech keebs have so much customisability, it boils down to what you like.
If membranes work for you then that's what you should be using.
I do like the membrane tactility from the past but dislike how wobbly/ mushy a lot of them feel so I customised my setup with box tactiles that give a similar feedback but don't wobble as much.
I used to play counterstrike competitively back in the day when membrane keyboards were still used more often than mechanical. The reason I even moved to mechanical is because most membrane boards do not support NKRO. Every game has different needs, but I type a lot so the feel and sound of the switches matter.
The innovation we really need in the keyboard space is better stabilizers.
Nice! Seems one could program different effects for different depths.
Oh great,another rabbit hole.Shame they are still so expensive.
I wish this was established as standard years ago, we would have games where pressing the button harder actually did more damage and things like that.
Not gonna happen since no matter how much advancement PC gets, games are made for consoles. Even PC exclusives are made for controllers nowadays.
Keychron Q1 Max user here. I decided to go with mechanical switches on purpose. It's the sound and feeling of HE switches that do not even come close to mechanical ones. And as I also write quite a lot with my PC, I simply took the Q1 Max. Maybe in a couple of years, I might switch to HE switches when they sound and feel as nice as mechanical ones.
I can honestly say after using my Wooting 60HE+, it’s awesome and it feels so good… worth every penny. Agree on the settings for the Wooting, rarely will you set it to full sensitivity, you will likely accidentally trigger other keys if you aren’t careful. What makes an he keyboard is indeed the rapid trigger… it’s so natural feeling.
This helped so much! I'm currently stuck between purchasing the Keychron Q1 HE, or the Lemokey P1 pro. Gaming is my main focus and I'm really struggling to decide which one to go with. The only mechanical keyboard I've ever used is the corsair K70r for many years now and have never tried HE.
There is maybe 1% of gamers that the tiny increased reaction time of the key would make any difference at all. I doubt even all of the pro gamers would even benefit from the tiny advantage these types of keys would give you beyond perhaps a placebo effect. The only real reason I can see switching from a quality mechanical keyboard to an HE keyboard would be if you dont like the mechanical keyboard sound or feel and like the sound and feel of an HE keyboard better. I cant stand membrane keyboards which is why I use a mechanical keyboard and I actually like the clicky clacks my keyboard makes. 0.5 - 1ms on my keyboard does nothing for me when my ping or even just my brain is not going to react that much faster too. Just like how there is no difference if your FPS is 200 or 400 if your refresh rate is still only 60hz.
As mentioned in the video, it's not the end-to-end latency that makes HE better though. Did you even watch it entirely?
Very informative. I know I live my Wooting 60HE. So much I'm thinking of the 80He.
Thanks for the tech behind the tech discussion points. I love tha nerd stuff. That's what makes me by stuff. 😊
It seems the greatest benefit with Wooting keyboards is their software. They are the only gaming keyboard maker I am aware of that does not have loads of people complaining about problems getting the software to work properly (online). I bought a Razer Huntsman V2 from Amazon and I was not even able to install the software properly when I tried. Luckily it was easy to return because it was from Amazon. So, I have ordered a Wooting HE 2.
Yeah that's razer. Their bloatware software is the worst. Go for something on the custom keyboard side that uses QMK and VIA. That's the good stuff.
My SteelSeries keyboard allows for custom actuation points for each key. I have a diff setting for gaming and typing. Def helps
I’ll switch when there’s QMK for HE keyboards and the start of an open-source community of people building them in all sorts of different styles and layouts. As it is, you can only choose between a handful of 60-65% layouts all with proprietary software.
Hmmm,... having just fairly recently bought a new keyboard means I am probably locked in until that one kicks the bucket. With some luck, that will be quite a few years. But I really wish I had seen this video beforehand. It may have affected my buying decisions.
Great Video!
I went to a tech store. Saw keyboards. Chose one that was relatively cheap yet had a lot of buttons that I might need and bought it.
Nich übel. Danke. Ich hatte von diesen Switches nicht die geringste Ahnung. Ich warte bis ein gute 105-Tastatur mit diesen Switches erscheint.
This is pretty cool using magnets. I can see this evolving to provide analog input from the keyboard. Of course I'm going to find a hard time justifying its use myself.
I love my Cherry MX speed silver switches for gaming, but I find it really hard to type with. I wish I had the option to change the distance out of games
HE keyboards can have profiles bound to a macro, I believe. So you can switch between different actuation distances with a keypress.
I find mx red already to be hard to type on, much less mx silver. Customizable actuation point is a game changer.
So a HE should be okay for typing? I really love my Cherry Browns. @@max10hoop
I was on a board with Cherry Speed Silvers and now switched to the Wooting 60HE+. In my opinion the difference is insane. The hall effect switches are so much better for gaming and I find them easier to type on because of the adjustable actuation point. Rapid trigger and tighter actuation makes them feel really good for playing CS for example.
Also the sound is way more pleasant (comparing a Corsair K65 RGB mini to a Wooting 60HE+ module in an Alumaze case)
I used a Hall effect keyboard on a Texas Instruments Silent 700 which used cassettes as a storage device in the late 1970s
You forgot to mention about analog optical switches.
The best keyboards to buy right now are either Wooting HE or Razer Huntsman V3 Pro. Performance and feature set wise they're the same, much better than everything else.
You get former if you prefer better sounding one, you get latter if you prefer prettier and easier to synchronize with rest of your setup RGB lights.
Your "what pros use" graphs shows that too.
Lol buggy razer sw and muh RGB sync. No, both keyboard are overpriced trash. I bet you also bought gaming headset with some kind of scout mode lol.
i could say the wooting 60he+ is fairly priced, good software good customer support, good warranty, community is pretty nice too@@madarab
Wooting also has no crappy bloatware software you have to download and keep updated and hogging system resources.
They have an online portal to make changes to settings and then you just flash that to the keyboard memory.
@@mckinleyostvig7135Oh no a program takes 200mb of my 64gm ram what will I do
The graph perfectly shows that it doesn't matter what keyboard you use. a mare 10+% of pros use hall effect switches (mostly FPS players), while majority of pros use whatever they are sponsored with.
The biggest benefit to HE switches is that regular mechanical keyboards (even premium ones) have become cheap.
This is actually even more helpful for typing books or papers.
Its like using a ball mouse to a optical mouse you will definitly notice the change.
I should probably sober up and then be concerned about this 0.05 lag in my keyboard
Rapid trigger is no longer allowed in CS2. :) You have a strong accent and pronunciation. Where are you from? Great channel, by the way.
i just got my wooting. I love how it feels when i play osu!, honestly lets me play how i want to play. And it sounds amazing.
Keys with adjustable hysteresis could be used for a variety of purposes. But I wonder about regular typing of documentation. Will a person be able to maximize typing speed with a hall effect keyboard? Also, each finger is a little different so maybe the keystroke data from a typing session could be used to make individual adjustments to each key to increase young performance.
The difference in response time between mechanical and HE is not enough to make any sort of difference in reality. The keys also feel quite dead compared to many mechanical switches. It may make an extremely tiny difference at the highest level for a pro player, but for any mortal its an irrelevant amount of time.
The science is fascinating behind it, and its cool to see the differences, but you should play with what feels best to you because that's what will give you the confidence to perform consistently.
This opens the door for pressure sensitive keyboards. Push W lightly to walk or press it fully to Sprint.
Analog is useful if whatever you are using it for is setup to take advantage of it.
Even more so if you want to use an analog stick and mouse at the same time.
Otherwise it's either all are working at the same time, or it's choose one and we'll disable the other
Great video! However, I think you missed a very important point. I suppose it depends on what type of games you play. But the largest benefit to key sensitivity, I think, is stopping yourself from accidentally pressing the key. For example, in league of legends, you don't want to fat finger your F/D (Flash) key while pressing R (ultimate). So you could set those to require more delibirate presses. Maybe in shooters it could prevent you from accidentally throwing a grenade or whatnot, while keeping WASD very sensitive.
Now I can play Factorio so much more precise!
tried to repeat the button push test with my 5 year old K95 and I couldn't get the key to not press lol
I doubt this is gonna make any difference, it's more a gimmick than an actual next best thing.
this HE keyboard may be a bit superior on paper in terms of latency... if all of your reactions didn't happen in subconscious level (spoiler : they do and it's totally out of your control. have you ever had a 'why the hell did I do that' moment? that's an example of it).
Except they're not used for just lower latency. These kinds of keyboards quite literally have tech that will give you a competitive advantage like rapid trigger or snap tap. There's a reason why every pro esport player and gaming nerds are switching to these keyboards,
@@TrVx_ and all of these things are being banned in competitive games. lol
@@whentheyD except they're not? Lmao the only thing that is banned is snap tap for csgo. Why would every pro and streamer use a he keyboard if they were banned LMFAO
As mentioned in the video, it's not the end-to-end latency that makes HE better though. Did you even watch it entirely?
How have we gamers survived with out this revolutionary tech. With this I can join Navi!
No mention of preloading the keys though. For some games where a planned response is common, using mechanical you preload right up to the edge of the activation point so that tiny latency is even less relevant. With HE you have to set some dead space to avoid errors, but there's no way to preload since there's no tactile feedback. In some situations then, HE could be more laggy. However, I think it's really a lot of personal style, gameplay, and budget. I've never liked the feel of linear or membrane, but that's just me. So, have fun with whatever works for you.
The latency of a mechanical key press event point is kinda moot. You can get very touchy switches and no one wants a touch keyboard which would have 0 travel and hence 0ms key press length. You could even go negative key press latency with something like a light/laser sensor triggering on increasing proximity to the switch. Then you can get your actuation point all the way to the ceiling fan. The rapid trigger thing makes sense though.
I'm guessing that uptick in the Razer sales was when they released the hacky keyboard.
I would prefer a setup that more keypress equals more movement.
Interesting options. Going to have to look into this.
It's worth talking about the feel of a switch and what that means for the typing/gaming experience. For me, a lot of optical switches feel dead or mushy. Yes, an optical or HE switch might be slightly faster, but if they are unpleasant or distracting to use, it's a pass from me.
This aged fast.
How did it age? I just got this video in my feed randomly and I'm not very keen on the depths of keyboard mechanisms.
@@limetime9045 SOCD has been banned in several competitive games
Honestly I’m happy just enabling socd with software on my custom keyboard. Still feels insane
I've been using a Wooting Two HE for about a year now and I can't see myself ever going to anything else. The keyboard it replaced was a Razer Blackwidow V3 which is no slouch, but the Wooting is just so much better. A huge selling point for me is Wooting requires no software to be installed on your computer. All the configuration settings can be done on Wooting's website and stored to the keyboard and that means no bloatware gobbling up precious computer real estate.
Assuming the same issue exists with the newer light based mechanical, since it still has to break a beam, vs seeing immediate movement in Hal effect?
Very convincing and logical! Gonna be shopping for an HE keyboard! Any really GOOD recommendations?!
before I found out about keyboard switches I always thought hall effect was how all keyboards actually worked. HE is much more intuitive for non technical users
HE would allow control over movement speed, jump height, and other action that can use analog input.
Hang on a second......doesn't Hall Effects keys mean that you can in theory make it possible to base movement speed off the amount the key is pressed to result in the character slow mo walking forward when barely pressed, normal walking when half pressed and then sprinting when fully pressed? Basically making it possible to have controller's variable movement speed on keyboard.
Are there hall effect keyboards with high force switches equivalent to Cherry black?
wooting's switches have the same actuation force as cherry blacks(60g).
@@Kreege I've researched it and there are multiple kinds of forces and that is not the one that creates the feel of the switch. There is the start force, actuation force and end force and the black has a lot higher end force. I could be wrong and I wish I was because the Wooting is my dream keyboard and the only thing I want is a similiar heaviness of the black switches because it feels so nice to have your fingers be braked by the switch instead of just slamming into the keyboard.
Does rollover not negate most of the arguments regarding counter-strafing?
I used a Philips mechanical keyboard from 1989 to 2023, when finally the left shift got sticky (not fully broken). Now I use a 1991 Olivetti mechanical keyboard. I still have an IBM mechanical for the last part of my life. I'm not switching to hall effect.
If you like vintage keyboards, HE switches aren't anything new. Honeywell and Zbrojovka Brno had used HE switches since 80s, they are pretty good. Btw what model is your philips, quite interested as there aren't many vintage philips boards.
I wonder if you could use this to give analog speed control in game based on HE sensor readings of whatever key you use for acceleration. I could see this being advantageous in racing sims for example.
So from what I´ve heard you can "simulate" an analog stick with these things. However, due to the cost, I´d prefer a hybrid where your standard WASD and maybe shift are HE switches. The others dont need to be, keeping cost down.
I have been using a linear optical switch with less travel and pressure required to activate. This allows me to get less delay to present and be more responsive alot like the he keys. But... I get to keep the set point that's fixed to start and release. With very little use I quickly found this meant I could feather the activation point to fly a space ship say and be able to make smoothing adjustments etc.
Ideally if I could get a keyboard that allowed for outputs that you could set the activation and endpoints on you could use one key as a normal switch and set the point it actions, then set another to use .2mm pressed as 1% and fully depressed as 100% and use it as a throttle say. Or have a key that has a level one activation for most of the stroke and a full depression would be able to output a second command, much like a two stage trigger in some joysticks.
Keyboards... are getting better and hopefully even more nice options will be developed.
Soooo... You get the membrane keyboard, but with a customization of activation point and ha heftier price?
What's the keyboard being used at 0:24 seconds black and white keyboard?
Keychron Q1 HE
Now is the HE switches is the same as rapid trigger switches but different names or are they different from each other with some additional features?
HE = magnetic. Rapid trigger is a feature you can get with these switches, but other analog switches like opticals support it too.
the percentage is high, but the player count is pretty low @0:20 on the graph.
2-4ms is so small. Just to paint a picture, your game and monitor MUST be running at AT LEAST 250-500 fps for this latency to consistently show up one frame earlier.
Of course, even if the character starts moving on the same frame, it will be a few pixels over which can compound (if the game had their input code well written and with sub-frame input in mind).
I'm not saying this is useless. But for most gamers it is. For most gamers, there are a lot of upgrades that needs to be done before making this switch a worthwhile investment, given that the price difference is not negligible. Heck, I'd even say that if you are not on the top 20% on ranked your skill isn't even good enough to have a noticeable advantage by using an HE keyboard.
But I do concede that not having a fixed travel point for actuation and release must feel really good.
All this will be null if the analog value can be used by the game.
Could you please test the Drunkdeer and ATK HE keyboards? I haven't seen any coverage of the ATK boards and the reviews of Drunkdeer boards are purely subjective, and include no objective measurements like yours
i see the HE keyboards used for the analogue input - no need to buy a gamepad for certain games and buttons would be infinitely more resilient than even the best HE thumbsticks, not to mention that the keycaps and switches are easily replaceable
Maybe I might buy a hall effect keyboard if a company makes a wireless full sized gaming hall effect keyboard
4:50 Literally shows why all your "rapid reset and low actuation point" reasoning fails. When you let go, the character jerks to the left due to it registering the key resetting as an input.
This is just 8 minutes of you going "I have a skill issue".
I want the keyboard to have no clicking sound from a mechanical and hall effect keyboard. No need to lubricate and all that hassle. Just a good mute keyboard for night gaming.
Membranes are also technically "Hall effect" switches too. I'd be very careful of someone selling me one.
Holy shit I had no idea hall effect keyboards were a thing this is amazing. Can any keyboard be converted to HE?
I use a mechanical keyboard bc as a left handed player, i use the numpad (8123 keys), bc of this i need a razor kb to manually adjust some keys via software. As well as needing the multi press capabilities of a mechanical kb. The numpad is notorious for not being setup for pressing more than 2-3 keys at once on many, if not most, kb's.
If they fix this on a hall effect kb, i'd try one.
My older brother's Apple II+ clone had hall effect switches. He couldn't change the height like I do on my Wooting.
Because it has to be implemented
Nuphy is also getting in on this now w/ rapid trigger as well~
what is so dificult about making it right?
You just need to program it to have an adjustable actuation point for any kay (ether all together or individually) and make it release as soon as you lift you finger. The rest is just build quality. But for that, there should be a standard.
The benefits are obvious. Not only can you reduce latency time you need to activate/deactivate you key press, but it also would remove the need for a fake latency added to compensate bounce and debounce timings. (Times the keyboard has to wait for the contacts to settly, before counting an input as an input to not register rapid key presses and releases.) Since you now only have these bounces (if in the first place) AFTER you have already pressed/released the key, at the end of your keystroke, your actual inputs starting points would be unefected in timings. If your HE keyboard doesn't account for that, it is indeed a bad product.