Extra likes for not being one of those channels that gives everything down to the nearest penny or second decimal place of kWh but sensibly rounds to whole pounds / kWh to make it easier to take in ata glance.
Good analysis thanks Oli. Octopus did a good install for you, the right size heat pump for your house and decent running costs. My own heat pump running costs are at least double yours in any week, but given I have two 9kW units, that is to be expected I guess. My calculations are that its similar running costs to the previous Oil boiler, so its not any more expensive to run plus the house is warm all the time. Yes it’s expensive in the winter but negligible in summer for hot water only, and with my solar generation I’m on track to be on zero consumption for the year - as you said, something you can’t do with gas
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech Yeah I know, I see all these installs with 6 or 7kW ASHP’s and wonder about the size of mine. The heat loss survey came back recommending a 15kWh unit and there wasn’t any MCS accredited ASHP’s that size two years ago so they fitted two 9kW units. There are some challenges with the install being on the opposite side of the house to the original so the buffer tank and heating is connected into the 15mm radiator circuit not any of the original 22/28mm heating ‘spine’, and its a big house, but I do think its oversized and thus less efficient. Will need to do more experiments of running with only 1 ASHP turned on next winter, the 1 week test I did indicated it was no more efficient than running with the 2
As a fairly heavy electricity user, have you considered changing your car charger to one which is compatible with IOG? 6 hours at 7.5 p/kWh vs 4 hours at 9 p/kWh with Go. Be interesting to calculate the pay back time. Especially when you can export your excess solar at 15 p/kWh as well. Charge everything to full overnight and export all your solar! I'm racking up some decent profits, especially now it's summer! And that's including 2000 EV miles per month.
Yes but the savings/earnings from the better tariff would take a few years to break even on the cost of the compatible charger. I have a GivEnergy charger and Octopus are working on adding that soon (it’s in their R&D service at the moment). I reeeeally want IOG!
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech I've had a Zappi for 2 years and was so happy when they made it compatible! It's made such a difference to my bills. Fingers crossed they add the GivEnergy charger soon.
I still get very confused when people tell me they turn their heating off, when we had timers it made sense, now we have thermostats surely you want a warm house regardless of the time of year and if your house is above your desired temperature the heating won’t come on anyway. I do sometimes feel like I’m the only person in the U.K. who trusts their thermostats to do their job Even so, it’s very interesting, I’m currently planning a two pronged approach, downstairs air to water, upstairs ducted air to air, so it’s nice to see that you’re saving on top of the levels of gas you would have expected to use
Because an 18 degree house in the summer is very different to an 18 degree house in the winter. In the winter I want it to kick in and warm it up to 20. But in the summer it doesn’t “feel” as cold so heating the house up to 20 just for it to reach that on its own when the sun comes out an hour or so later feels a waste of energy. There are clever solutions out there (like Homely) that predict things like solar gain on your home and adjust automatically. But for now, I use the finger in the air test.
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech I can’t argue with your feeling of temperatures but 18 degrees definitely feels like 18 regardless of the time of year, and I want it to be 20 when I get out of bed. Although the heating rarely comes on this time of year, it’s still very alien to me to actually turn it off. Then again I’ve lived in an apartment (insulated in all but 1 side by other apartments), and 2 energy efficient homes, so the main issue we have at this time of year is getting heat out of the house, it may be different if you’re in something built just either side of the war. Plus we do have room by room zoning and contact sensors on the windows to prevent us from heating rooms unnecessarily or trying to heat the outside
Me too - I have a Nest thermostat that changes the target temperature depending on time of day and the start time depends on the outside weather - colder = earlier because I want 21 degrees when I get up in the morning, then cooler during the day. Also it’s better for the system not to be off for several months, valves and pumps tend to stick if not exercised from time to time, so I set half an hour of higher temperature once a week just to keep it alive and kicking!
I have same Daikin HP, installed by Octopus. A Heat Geek assured me that you have to add the electricity input figure to the produced heat figure, then divide by electricity input to get the COP. This means you always need to add 1.0 to your calculated figures based on MMI, which looks like aligning very closely with your Emon calcs. The "produced heat" figures from MMI are the heat added from the air. Octopus told me to use your original method (MMI heat/MMI input) but your data seems to confirm that is wrong!
I would need to see more evidence to prove what is being said by your Heat Geek I’m afraid… it doesn’t make mathematical sense :) My calculation method is a well established one, you don’t want to be adding your output to the input energy, they are two different forms of energy (electrical before, heat after) and have been calculated in different ways. COP is a ratio of output/input.
yes but the electrical energy contributes to the overall heat. All but a small amount for parasitic pumping losses anyway. I look forward to you finding a better explanation as to why your calculated values are so consistently about 1.0 more than the MMI values.
@@brianrobinson6750most of those heat losses are in the outside unit though, not the inside units. If you have air to air then the power drawn by the internal units would contribute, but not the power from the outside unit.
They’re not consistently 1.0 different, they are 79%. Your energy input is already considered in the calculation. Adding it on again to the output energy just makes it look like more heat was generated when it wasn’t, which would make it look like your COP is way too high.
The way to prove one way or the other would be to, while heating off, just use the immersion heater for a few days for the hot water (tank schedule set to off). If the MMI COP method is correct, the "produced heat" figure for those days will be pretty much same as "electricity input" and COP will be 1.0. If the "Heat Geek" theory is correct, the MMI "produced heat" will be 0.
And my hob is part of a quite expensive range oven so I’d need to replace that and get the electrics upgraded to support the higher powered range too! I’ll do it eventually but it’s a costly final item to finally get the gas meter removed!
And gas is artificialy super cheap. If you took in all the costs of drilling, piping infra structure with electricity to control the gas supply, It would be more expensive than having electric heating straight from solar and wind with battery storage.
Do you have a link tot he energy monitoring clamps you use to monitor your live usage? Just had mine installed last week and added to HA buto so disappointed I can;t see live consumption. Also, have you created any automations to make sure the heat pump doesnt kick in during higher rates?
This one here, the Shelly Pro EM shellystore.co.uk/product/shelly-pro-em-50a/ and no, I let the heat pump kick in whenever it needs to. I have set points of 20 degrees morning and evening, 18 during the day and 17 over night. I have batteries which see me through the peak hours most days. It's only the really cold and dark days that I end up drawing from the grid but that's fine, it's all about my overall average unit rate rather everything having to be off-peak.
I have a Midea ASHGP and unfortunately the app rounds up like yours to a whole number. Mine does not display the other information, so i have just bought the open energy monitor for my ASHP. It is being fitted in 6 days time! I am hoping to see some great information and get a realistic idea of what my system is actually doing. I am better than predicted but my large detached house is still using around 2500kWh a year for heat and DHW.
You’ve definitely made the best choice in picking a monitoring solution! Glyn knows his stuff and you should get good support. I made the decision not to have it installed due to extra cost and the additional time needed for the installers who were already under pressure. Maybe in the future I’ll retrofit it.
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech For us Geeks I wish I had known about it when I got the ASHP installed as the pipework needs some extra fittings and the electrician needs to do a couple of jobs. So fitting wise it may not have been much extra at that time!
Thanks. My point was to show that running costs are at least comparable to gas. If you do happen to have a battery then when combined with electric heating your payback period on the battery system is seriously accelerated.
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech it may not be financially make sense. The energy bill is just comparable to gas boiler. But the hardware cost is way higher than the gas boiler.
Hi @speaktothegeek I'm soon moving into a 1970 house which has decent insulation with cavity walls and missing underfloor insulation but roof is okay. I plan to replace the existing traditional boiler with octopus ashp but scared to as many say pipes could smaller or less insulation in see houses. What do you think?
Hello @speaktotheGeektech My survey is lined up for this week and before that when i asked the octopus team if I can use the TRV he says its not efficient and might increase your bills if keep turning off and on. I want to ask you if you turn off completely in any room and switch back on when needed or just maintain a temperature over entire house constantly ? how do you manage this?
@@Suresh-oc4cr They have to fit TRVs for MCS approval, but you shouldn't turn any of them off at all. The heat loss calculations are based on the whole home being a single thermal zone and if you turn one radiator off then all of a sudden that cold room leaches heat from your other heated rooms meaning they are now underpowered / require more energy to keep their rooms warm. Just maintain the house at the designed temperatures and it'll all be fine and more efficient overall!
I used Flexible Octopus (6.25p/kWh) which is what I'm still on because I have a gas hob. I know I could have modelled a cheaper tariff like Tracker, but then I could have also modelled cheaper Electricity tariffs such as Intelligent Octopus Go, or included the gas boiler inefficiencies, all of which would have demonstrated the same point albeit with different number. I just picked something simple for the comparison.
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech Thank you, I only asked so I can compare your heat pump running cost with my actual gas cost, I am having a heat pump installed this year and don't want to be too surprised at the running cost difference.
They were compiled specifically for this video and exported as images, you are just as well taking screenshots of the video for the graphs you want to keep, I don't have the spreadsheet with the cleaned data in for them anymore.
I don't know how you manage to be so concise and pack so much information in to your videos! Well done and thanks for sharing!
Thank you! Fully planned and scripted (usually) with a teleprompter, several takes and lots of editing :)
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech The antithesis of my channel! I can appreciate the amount of time and effort you put in. Brilliant work.
Extra likes for not being one of those channels that gives everything down to the nearest penny or second decimal place of kWh but sensibly rounds to whole pounds / kWh to make it easier to take in ata glance.
Haha thanks! Perhaps don’t watch some of my other stats videos then! :)
Good analysis thanks Oli. Octopus did a good install for you, the right size heat pump for your house and decent running costs.
My own heat pump running costs are at least double yours in any week, but given I have two 9kW units, that is to be expected I guess. My calculations are that its similar running costs to the previous Oil boiler, so its not any more expensive to run plus the house is warm all the time. Yes it’s expensive in the winter but negligible in summer for hot water only, and with my solar generation I’m on track to be on zero consumption for the year - as you said, something you can’t do with gas
Thanks! 18kW of total heat pump?? That’s a lot!
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech Yeah I know, I see all these installs with 6 or 7kW ASHP’s and wonder about the size of mine. The heat loss survey came back recommending a 15kWh unit and there wasn’t any MCS accredited ASHP’s that size two years ago so they fitted two 9kW units. There are some challenges with the install being on the opposite side of the house to the original so the buffer tank and heating is connected into the 15mm radiator circuit not any of the original 22/28mm heating ‘spine’, and its a big house, but I do think its oversized and thus less efficient.
Will need to do more experiments of running with only 1 ASHP turned on next winter, the 1 week test I did indicated it was no more efficient than running with the 2
@@geoffreycoan I can't believe they connected an ASHP to a 15mm pipe. That's nuts.
Great video, very insightful. Looking forward to my octopus install next month.
Thank you and good luck!
As a fairly heavy electricity user, have you considered changing your car charger to one which is compatible with IOG? 6 hours at 7.5 p/kWh vs 4 hours at 9 p/kWh with Go. Be interesting to calculate the pay back time. Especially when you can export your excess solar at 15 p/kWh as well. Charge everything to full overnight and export all your solar! I'm racking up some decent profits, especially now it's summer! And that's including 2000 EV miles per month.
Yes but the savings/earnings from the better tariff would take a few years to break even on the cost of the compatible charger. I have a GivEnergy charger and Octopus are working on adding that soon (it’s in their R&D service at the moment). I reeeeally want IOG!
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech I've had a Zappi for 2 years and was so happy when they made it compatible! It's made such a difference to my bills. Fingers crossed they add the GivEnergy charger soon.
I still get very confused when people tell me they turn their heating off, when we had timers it made sense, now we have thermostats surely you want a warm house regardless of the time of year and if your house is above your desired temperature the heating won’t come on anyway.
I do sometimes feel like I’m the only person in the U.K. who trusts their thermostats to do their job
Even so, it’s very interesting, I’m currently planning a two pronged approach, downstairs air to water, upstairs ducted air to air, so it’s nice to see that you’re saving on top of the levels of gas you would have expected to use
Because an 18 degree house in the summer is very different to an 18 degree house in the winter. In the winter I want it to kick in and warm it up to 20. But in the summer it doesn’t “feel” as cold so heating the house up to 20 just for it to reach that on its own when the sun comes out an hour or so later feels a waste of energy. There are clever solutions out there (like Homely) that predict things like solar gain on your home and adjust automatically. But for now, I use the finger in the air test.
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech I can’t argue with your feeling of temperatures but 18 degrees definitely feels like 18 regardless of the time of year, and I want it to be 20 when I get out of bed.
Although the heating rarely comes on this time of year, it’s still very alien to me to actually turn it off. Then again I’ve lived in an apartment (insulated in all but 1 side by other apartments), and 2 energy efficient homes, so the main issue we have at this time of year is getting heat out of the house, it may be different if you’re in something built just either side of the war.
Plus we do have room by room zoning and contact sensors on the windows to prevent us from heating rooms unnecessarily or trying to heat the outside
Me too - I have a Nest thermostat that changes the target temperature depending on time of day and the start time depends on the outside weather - colder = earlier because I want 21 degrees when I get up in the morning, then cooler during the day.
Also it’s better for the system not to be off for several months, valves and pumps tend to stick if not exercised from time to time, so I set half an hour of higher temperature once a week just to keep it alive and kicking!
It still runs every day for hot water so no worries about it being unused
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech Beware the sticky diverter valve (CH / DHW). Keep it moving!
I have same Daikin HP, installed by Octopus. A Heat Geek assured me that you have to add the electricity input figure to the produced heat figure, then divide by electricity input to get the COP. This means you always need to add 1.0 to your calculated figures based on MMI, which looks like aligning very closely with your Emon calcs. The "produced heat" figures from MMI are the heat added from the air. Octopus told me to use your original method (MMI heat/MMI input) but your data seems to confirm that is wrong!
I would need to see more evidence to prove what is being said by your Heat Geek I’m afraid… it doesn’t make mathematical sense :) My calculation method is a well established one, you don’t want to be adding your output to the input energy, they are two different forms of energy (electrical before, heat after) and have been calculated in different ways. COP is a ratio of output/input.
yes but the electrical energy contributes to the overall heat. All but a small amount for parasitic pumping losses anyway. I look forward to you finding a better explanation as to why your calculated values are so consistently about 1.0 more than the MMI values.
@@brianrobinson6750most of those heat losses are in the outside unit though, not the inside units.
If you have air to air then the power drawn by the internal units would contribute, but not the power from the outside unit.
They’re not consistently 1.0 different, they are 79%. Your energy input is already considered in the calculation. Adding it on again to the output energy just makes it look like more heat was generated when it wasn’t, which would make it look like your COP is way too high.
The way to prove one way or the other would be to, while heating off, just use the immersion heater for a few days for the hot water (tank schedule set to off). If the MMI COP method is correct, the "produced heat" figure for those days will be pretty much same as "electricity input" and COP will be 1.0. If the "Heat Geek" theory is correct, the MMI "produced heat" will be 0.
Don’t forget your Gas supply daily charge saving which could be the equivalent of 8-10kwh of electricity per day.
Only if you get rid of your gas meter too. I haven’t yet because I still have a gas hob
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech surprising !
Hard to give up a gas hob, it’s so good for cooking. Induction hobs just don’t come close in my experience 🙁
And my hob is part of a quite expensive range oven so I’d need to replace that and get the electrics upgraded to support the higher powered range too! I’ll do it eventually but it’s a costly final item to finally get the gas meter removed!
nicely said, balanced approach 👍
how is the car now
Thank you! Car update vid next Saturday hopefully.
And gas is artificialy super cheap. If you took in all the costs of drilling, piping infra structure with electricity to control the gas supply, It would be more expensive than having electric heating straight from solar and wind with battery storage.
I’m curious, is gas subsidised? Do you have a source for that?
That’s not correct , gas is not subsidised in the UK .
Do you have a link tot he energy monitoring clamps you use to monitor your live usage? Just had mine installed last week and added to HA buto so disappointed I can;t see live consumption.
Also, have you created any automations to make sure the heat pump doesnt kick in during higher rates?
This one here, the Shelly Pro EM shellystore.co.uk/product/shelly-pro-em-50a/ and no, I let the heat pump kick in whenever it needs to. I have set points of 20 degrees morning and evening, 18 during the day and 17 over night. I have batteries which see me through the peak hours most days. It's only the really cold and dark days that I end up drawing from the grid but that's fine, it's all about my overall average unit rate rather everything having to be off-peak.
I have a Midea ASHGP and unfortunately the app rounds up like yours to a whole number. Mine does not display the other information, so i have just bought the open energy monitor for my ASHP. It is being fitted in 6 days time! I am hoping to see some great information and get a realistic idea of what my system is actually doing. I am better than predicted but my large detached house is still using around 2500kWh a year for heat and DHW.
You’ve definitely made the best choice in picking a monitoring solution! Glyn knows his stuff and you should get good support. I made the decision not to have it installed due to extra cost and the additional time needed for the installers who were already under pressure. Maybe in the future I’ll retrofit it.
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech For us Geeks I wish I had known about it when I got the ASHP installed as the pipework needs some extra fittings and the electrician needs to do a couple of jobs. So fitting wise it may not have been much extra at that time!
So to save the planet we have to switch to electricity because its getting to hot but its only getting warmer in the middle of June. !
I think perhaps with your stunted thinking you’re maybe watching the wrong channel…
If we don’t take the cost of the battery into account, this video is very useful
Thanks. My point was to show that running costs are at least comparable to gas. If you do happen to have a battery then when combined with electric heating your payback period on the battery system is seriously accelerated.
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech it may not be financially make sense. The energy bill is just comparable to gas boiler. But the hardware cost is way higher than the gas boiler.
Not really much difference overall “How Much Did My Octopus Energy Heat Pump Installation Cost?”
ruclips.net/video/Tc_5SlkNkik/видео.html
Hi @speaktothegeek I'm soon moving into a 1970 house which has decent insulation with cavity walls and missing underfloor insulation but roof is okay. I plan to replace the existing traditional boiler with octopus ashp but scared to as many say pipes could smaller or less insulation in see houses. What do you think?
I think it’s best to get a survey done and they’ll tell you. Older houses tended to have larger bore pipes so it might just be fine.
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech thanks mate
Hello @speaktotheGeektech My survey is lined up for this week and before that when i asked the octopus team if I can use the TRV he says its not efficient and might increase your bills if keep turning off and on. I want to ask you if you turn off completely in any room and switch back on when needed or just maintain a temperature over entire house constantly ? how do you manage this?
@@Suresh-oc4cr They have to fit TRVs for MCS approval, but you shouldn't turn any of them off at all. The heat loss calculations are based on the whole home being a single thermal zone and if you turn one radiator off then all of a sudden that cold room leaches heat from your other heated rooms meaning they are now underpowered / require more energy to keep their rooms warm. Just maintain the house at the designed temperatures and it'll all be fine and more efficient overall!
May I ask which gas tariff you used for the comparison.
Octopus tracker was around 4.3p/ kWh in jan, feb
I used Flexible Octopus (6.25p/kWh) which is what I'm still on because I have a gas hob. I know I could have modelled a cheaper tariff like Tracker, but then I could have also modelled cheaper Electricity tariffs such as Intelligent Octopus Go, or included the gas boiler inefficiencies, all of which would have demonstrated the same point albeit with different number. I just picked something simple for the comparison.
@@SpeakToTheGeekTech Thank you, I only asked so I can compare your heat pump running cost with my actual gas cost, I am having a heat pump installed this year and don't want to be too surprised at the running cost difference.
Can I get a copy of your graphs please?
They were compiled specifically for this video and exported as images, you are just as well taking screenshots of the video for the graphs you want to keep, I don't have the spreadsheet with the cleaned data in for them anymore.