Tepeo Shows Heat Pumps Don’t Have To Be The Only Solution!
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- Опубликовано: 16 июн 2024
- Heat pumps aren’t a one-size-fits-all solution. Future homes will need to utilise a range of innovative electric heating technologies. In today’s episode Imogen takes a look at the Tepeo, Zero Emission Boiler, an alternative solution to a heat pump that could work for you. Could this be the Tesla of home heating?
For more information:
Tepeo ZEB Boiler: www.tepeo.com/
Check out our episode
Mixergy - Can This Hot Water Tank Save You Money? • Can This Hot Water Tan...
0:00 Intro
00:18 Did you know?
00:32 Heat pumps are not a one size fits all
00:51 What is a ZEB?
01:53 Living with a ZEB
02:46 What makes a ZEB a viable alternative to a Heat Pump?
03:06 Why a Tepeo ZEB?
04:16 Installation and software
06:36 Does a ZEB save money?
07:55 Why not a Heat pump?
09:26 Reducing our reliance on fossil fuels
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#homeenergy #cleantech #gasfreehome #cleanenergy #tepeo #heatpump #boiler #gasboiler #heating 
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Right, Tepeo = plug and play, but no government grant Heatpump = 300% efficient, with Grants available BUT may come with a load of pipework upgrades. As with a lot of these technologies which one is better is so dependent on each individual home. Which one would you go for and what other heating tech should be on our radar?
Could you do a video on high temperature heat pumps? They're another alternative if you really don't want to change your system, and still a lot more efficient than an electric boiler.
I can't go for a heatpump right now because I have a solar boiler for our hot water and the combination doesn't work in winter. I wonder if the combi version of the Tepeo would solve this problem.
I'm looking at an A2A single mini-split heat pump (~ £2000 installed), as I have microbore pipes. No govt grant, but less disruption and less capital cost to heat a small, open-plan house. And a COP and SCOP of more than 4, which A2W struggles to match. A2A for my living room, plus far infrared panels for my bedroom (short periods on, evening and morning) and for infrequently used rooms, plus 15Litre stored hot water heater for my shower, plus a dishwasher so that little hot water is needed in the kitchen, is my singleton's solution. As you say, the better/best solution is so dependent on individual circumstances.
As HeatGeak would say, there's no panacea! If they make a combi version of this, it would be perfect. Our overnight electricity rate (7.5p/kWh) is very similar to our gas rate (6.5p/kWh). Yes it would be a tiny bit more expensive to run, BUT we could get rid of our gas supply and save the standing charge.
@@michielfeys9563
Your best course of action would be to address this query of yours to the manufacturers' technical advice department.
Very few on this platform could answer said query anyway.
It might be from comments expressed that there's not a particular love of what is really a storage heater, even if it had a mainframe nailed on top.
FAR IR heaters will work, with an "instant hot water heater" for showers, etc, etc.
Cheap as chips to install and eliminates a lot of faffing around with cobbling in hot water storage tanks, insulated pipe runs, etc, etc, etc.
Might need to bung in a higher capacity feed to an electric heater by virtue of a 10mm2 cable or perhaps 16mm2 for long runs from the incomer.
FAR IR units typically don't run much over 1KW and that's only 4A.
Might even see ring circuits being replaced with radials in new builds. Google is your friend on why radials could be "better" after all.
Ref heat pumps. Has anyone worked out the pay back time for re-engineering a house with larger radiators (or so we are told is absolutely necessary)?
Double glazing or better still triple glazing.
Some authorities go so far as to suggest that windows, in bedrooms especially, should be smaller so as to reduce heat loss.
Adding insulation and then more insulation and yet more insulation of top is the cheapest way of reducing heat loss.
That's where HMG should be spending our money on "heating grants".
Legislation introduced to ensure new housing stock is so well insulated will not be that difficult to comply with.
At least the building industry has got around to making houses "draft proof" which is at least a very creditable start on passive energy saving, so to speak.
The underlying problem remains that it is ohmic resistive heating and will use at least three times as much electricity as a heat pump for the same amount of heat. We should be seeking to maximise the utility of every unit of electricity generated.
While everything you say is true, we simply cannot allow for perfect to be the enemy of good. In both Keri and Robert's cases, the choice for thermal storage over an air source heat pump is the level of modification necessary.
Radiators paired with a traditional _fossil gas_ boiler are typically as small as possible for the room in which they're installed and, as such, are heated to the point that they're extremely hot.
Air source heat pumps typically operate in the 50°C range; a temperature not hot enough for the existing rads to emit sufficient heat into the room. For this reason, rads used with ASHP's are much bigger than their predecessors.
This level of modification is time consuming, expensive and potentially impractical. Hence the Tepio boiler replacement.
With smart software, optimized for off-peak usage, this all-electric solution is absolutely brilliant.
With all that said, every new build should absolutely use heat pumps.
Heat pump uses ghg gases that are very potent. It's not ultimate solution for everything. Well have times of surplus energy from pvs and wind and this kind of storage is very good solution. It's like battery but without rare earth materials or ghgs.
@@Adrian_kal Not true. A CO2 transcritical heat pump has the lowest GWP of any refrigerant.
It's a shill sales channel. Don't bother taking anything seriously from this video
@@Adrian_kalAs with every solution, total cradle to grave analysis of emissions is necessary.
Everything that's built has an environmental cost. Some solutions are simply better than others.
However, both caution and precision are highly recommended when discussing these solutions.
Your response raises two such cases:
1) Heat pumps are not responsible for GHG emissions. And, while it's true that the HFC refrigerant is packs 4,280 times the global warming potential of CO2, that refrigerant is carefully charged at the factory and shouldn't leak into the environment when the appliance is properly maintained. When decommissioned, an HVAC technician will recover the refrigerant for later reuse.
2) As for rare earth "materials", this is an all too often misunderstood topic. You see, rare earth metals, such as those used in all manner of renewable energy solutions, aren't actually in short supply. The term "rare" simply refers to relative crustational abundance.
In the case of batteries, in particular, the availability of all of the constituent metals has been well proven the global scientific community.
Geopolitics and global supply chain issues aside, the needed electrification of energy sectors served by batteries is assured.
Now, with all that said, heat pumps, both and air and ground source, are definitely the preferred solution. They're simply the most energy efficient appliance currently known to man, producing 2x to 3x or more heating/cooling per unit of energy input than any other solution.
The problem is insulation and thermal performance of the building, if that is not up to scratch, then you lose a lot of the heat and fail to optimize transfer ... get a proper installer and make sure your house is at a decent level of performance, that is the same rule for having a Gas monster in the house as well, the future is dying for domestic Gas and Oil and people need to realize what they waste, top bloke Robert ! ... Put a jumper on if it's cold or walk around in your underpants if it's warm ... either way, realize your environment !
Totally agree with the thermal side. If we all lived in passive energy efficient homes, we would only need a very small source of energy to keep it to a comfortable temperature.
Unfortunately most houses built today are on a budget, and without proper regulations for energy efficient homes we will have to eventually pour more money into keeping our houses warm in winter and cool in summer.
@@MrPrimeGlassadd to that, the vast majority of people actually live in older houses that actually perform very poorly & leak a load of heat.
Ref all the hot air expended on this debate it might be useful to research the data gathered by several UK unis on the passive heating subject.
In short the best, absolutely best solution was insulation and more insulation.
The almost universal solution to the actual heating was to build a green house type structure on the house facing the Sun.
Heat stored in vast basement water tanks.
You can work out the rest for yourself.
Interestingly for US subscribers one of your housebuilding gurus, Bob Vila, of "This old House" fame had a very, very well insulated house built with a large "greenhouse" on the sunny side. This was over forty years ago so you might say the technology is not new by any means whatsoever.
You might also research well insulated homes built in Japan from about the same period that used earth as the insulating medium. Earth was cheap as chips if taken from build site and cost would have been shifting it where it was needed.
Again this points at insulation being of prime importance.
Slightly tongue in cheek ... if we all lived in "Hobbit" type burrows then heat loss would be of very little consequence.
And we could point to Luke Skywalker type burrows too.
Amusingly "Hobbit" type burrows have been built in US but probably more of a whimsy thing that energy saving.
Insulation of course works two ways. Houses built in Yemen and Africa and Mojave desert were of mud/clay construction on a timber armature ... they date back hundreds and hundreds of years. They were designed to keep the heat out of course.
As for high rise buildings then it is not outside the wit of man to use the upcoming solar cladding materials during construction or install concealed (in the visual sense) ducted wind turbines on the roof for "local" use in support of the grid.
You might consider humans have been "collecting" wind energy for hundreds of years in the form of Don Quixote type windmills ... not only for the benefit of the bread industry but helping to pump out the water in the Polders and Norfolk Broads as but two example.
The wind turbine we see today are merely a variation on a theme and probably a lot more efficient.
If arsed you can also research concealed ducted wind turbines in the roof spaces of ordinary pitched roof dwellings.
In short insulation is paramount and there's many ways to generate electricity and store the energy than using computer controlled concrete blocks.
On which, to echo other posts, this episode was as close to "product placement" as seen in any Hollywood production.
Still, an income stream is an income stream and you can't argue with that.
@@hughmarcus1answers on a postcode plz
I was quoted £8k by Tepeo for a ZEB including installation, plus £149 for the annual health check and it doesn’t qualify the the £5k boiler replacement scheme grant so that’s the price you pay. If you haven’t got a hot water tank you’ll have to factor that cost in to or wait for the combi version. I just need something to run my central heating as I have immersion tank I heat overnight using Octopus Energy TOU tariff or solar.
The UK government really need to improve the replacement scheme to allow for those of us who can't use heat pumps.
In 1975 I moved into a house with storage heaters working on off peak electricity. When I got rid of them I found the storage heater was just bricks with heating elements and a thermostat. Just for fun I remade the heaters to heat a water cylinder and it worked. Very cheap, but not capable of being certified for domestic use.
mmm couldn't send me details? as I have a couple of storage heaters remaining.
I did this pre-internet and it was all manual drawings. I know there are quite a few different types. If you have a look on the internet there are a few websites that have the same idea.@@livingladolcevita7318
The installation process for our heat-pump was quite a job. There was a lot of work to retrofit the house with new doors, windows, attic insulation, etc. On top of that all the old radiators were ripped out, along with the heating tank and, naturally, the gas boiler. A year later though I think it's safe to say we're a lot better off and happier. I can see the attraction behind an electric boiler, particularly if you don't want the hassle of moving out for a week (we didn't, but some of our neighbours who were getting the same heat-pump upgrades did). But long term heat-pumps are the future and should be prioritised.
When we moved in to our new place in Scotland, it had a oil burner for central heating. It took some time to watch all the fully charged show episodes on alternatives and get and installer to quote (and even having agreed a quote to get them to install it), In that time we watched the Oil Price treble in just a few months. It cost us £3000 in 2022 just in heating oil (and that was including a special deal we managed to get).
We now have a nice heat pump. Did involve some shenanigans getting a larger and relocated hot water tank and we were without hot water for two and half days. So far this year, we havent used much electricity from the grid (panels) and its been enough to drive the pump and heat the water. Heating has come back on again in the last couple of weeks. Definitely feel we are winning (although the cost of the install was quite big - around £14k).
That must be for an air source heat pump. Ground source is considerably more but nicer in the end.
@@rogerphelps9939 I did ask about ground source but installers didnt think it was suitable for my property. So yes, ASHP
The Tepeo is in no way a plug-and-play replacement for a gas boiler. It's about six times the size of mine and is floor-standing, not wall-mounted. And to be honest also is best suited for houses that have a solar deployment already. I'd love to deploy something like this instead of an ASHP, but just don't have the space.
The biggest thing that put me off the Tepeo was the fact you can’t use the BUS grant and I was told it would cost over £6k for the Tepeo but they don’t install in the north west of England neither. In the end I opted for a 7kW Vaillant Heat Pump and yes I only took advantage of the previous £5k grant which is now £7500 which is great news if your looking to get a heat pump. I’m more than pleased with my install from a great company called The Heating People and they are also registered Elite Heat Geek installers. Can’t recommend them highly enough if anyone is looking for a heat pump installer in the North West of England.
The latest designed ASHPs using propane (E290) refrigerant close the gap between gas boilers and heat pumps. These are happy to work with wider difference between the flow and return temperatures. On a commercial basis CO2 can be used as the refrigerant giving an even wider temperature range and suitable for large office blocks and high rise blocks of flats. These newer heat pumps are still likely to give a COP of better than 3 and approaching 4. Valiant and Octopus have E290 ASHPs for sale.
Got a ZEB installed this year after first finding out about it from the fullycharged channel a while back. Same situation - microbore pipes, house (90's build, smallish 4 bed in SE England) is not the best insulated in the world but not too bad either. ASHP would've cost a lot for installation and would have put our house in an unliveable state for a number of days. This was literally a 'drop in' replacement. On my tariff, it is set to smart autonomous mode which means that it does not charge to 100% when it is not needed. throughout the summer I have been sitting around 20-30% as it's 'charged' state. As the mercury dropped, it went up a bit. I imagine that a full charge will only be done in the depths of winter. Aftercare from Tepeo has been top notch. It is a very good alternative to a heat pump and I am flabbergasted to see that this tech is not eligible for grants. No change in comfort, no change in how we use the heating/hot water and cheaper than gas. In August we have had solar PV installed. Utility bills (heating, hot water, cooking, electric car charging and hot tub running- in short a very high electricity consumption household) are around £120 a month with current (sept-oct 23) UK SVR prices. This will obviously go up in the winter as the ZEB uses more and PV generating less, but for a comparable cost of having this set up vs just an ASHP being installed in our property alongside all the alterations we would've had to do. I did a cost comparison back in May before the solar PV was installed and we were roughly saving a pound a day SVR cost of electricity vs gas.
TL/DR: Is your house built prior to 2000/has microbore pipes? - get a ZEB. Post/has large pipes/has existing wet underfloor heating set up - get a heat pump. Invest in solar to 'take the edge off' electricity prices whilst they are so high (for both options).
What was the total cost of ZEB and solar install?
@keithlinney7084 circa 23k. Solar is stupidly overpriced right now. 7k for the zeb. A full rip out of piping/new radiators and an ashp would've been very close. You don't 'need' solar as long as you have a good tariff for the zeb. As mentioned, I was saving about a quid a day of electricity costs based on my tariff of 12p/kwh for the exclusive use of the zeb vs svr gas back in May. Octopus has a rate of almost half that I believe (almost 2x savings) its not a cheap investment by any means, but with solar, my return is currently estimated at around 10 years.
@@SirPlankton
12p is a great rate and ZEB a far better option.
I saw on RUclips that they're £25k to install so your 7k was a bargain.
They are complicated as they're sort of two systems in one.
I'm currently living in a two bed property and I'm all electric and my bill is
@@SirPlanktonDid you factor in the £5k ASHP grant from the government in your comparisons?
£7k for a ZEB seems really quite high?
Thankfully Octopus does a tariff for heatpumps now so it's cheap rate at 2 times during the day, so this could be a good case for ZEB?
@computerbob06 I have actually. In my case, and everyone's mileage may vary, the grant plus ASHP and alterations came to just a hair over 20k but that's 14 radiators and all of our piping being 10mm. So lots of chipboard flooring to be ripped up and replaced. There is no grant available for the zeb hence the high cost but that included supply and installation. Like I said, its not an ashp beater, but a very competitive alternative. The phase change efficiency comes toe to toe with the zebs ability to store off peak heat cost wise. Insulation is a very big factor here as well. Many houses in UK are simply not up to the standard where a heat pump would run to its peak efficiency/comfort level. A breezy house will feel cold with the lower temperatures that the HP outputs. The zeb heats the water in the circuit to the same temperature a gas boiler would so comfort wise there is no change. In an ideal world every house would be insulated to the max but for the UK market, I think the zeb should be the main focus personally, not heat pumps.
I’ve been waiting for their combi version for over 2 years. They used to send emails to registered people. This unit is incredibly expensive and just cannot compete.
Love this stuff. Also appreciated hearing the little pointer about insulation.
You could use a high temperature heat pump, with no change to existing pipework, and it would be a lot more efficient than a tepeo.
Not in my case it isn't. I have a high temperature heat pump and when you get to freezing temperatures, my heat pump can use up to 70 kw of GRID electric a day! Oh, and if I want to replace it with a low temperature heat pump , I would have to spend ££££££ as my rads and pipework would need updating.
I like this as a potential solution for my house when our gas boiler dies of old age (so probably not for 8-10 years). Living in a London home, ground source heat pump is a non-starter. An ASHP is a possibility but the only place to site it which would be over 50 ft from the house which does seem inefficient even if we buried the piping.
However, my house was originally had a dedicated boiler cupboard in middle of house with a flue up to roof. This was condemned many years ago and converted into a drinks cupboard. Maybe it is time to convert it back to its original use
indeed
Nice 100 proof Malt burns very cleanly, and renewable ;-)
I was quoted for a Tepeo ZEB but since the government grant wasn't available for it a ASH pump looks a much better option especially as now its increased to £7500 (which incidentally was what the ZEB was going to cost.)
Love to see these videos on new technology, this is the modern version of a storage heater except you can put the heat back into the central heating water system. The operating and maintenance cost is very similar to that of an oil boiler. However the installation and purchase of the ZEB is over £6000, not everyone can afford or justify this cost even though it is a green solution.
if it were included in the BUS, it would cost -£1500.
New technology? It appears to be the same as the GEC Nightstor boilers from 70s/80s. Cracking units if you knew how to run them. Have a 40year old one still cranking along with a total of 2 maintence/service interventions in that entire time, so much cheaper on that front than oil.
Half informational. Half kitchen table chat...with an actual consumer...with 18 months of experience. Wonderfully entertaining and highly informative presentation by two of the very best!
Is this a promotional video and did Robert receive any benefit from the installation. A full disclosure of all tech videos would be useful information
They don't take any payments from the companies and retain editorial control over what goes into the videos. I think Robert got a discount on the installation as a beta tester of the system as it was so new. They knew he would do a video or 2 about it so they would get exposure, but they don't tell him what to say about it, he says what he really thinks.
Great video but should state that micropore pipe work does not mean you can't have an ASHP. See Adam on Heat Geek he explains that micropore can be used it all depends how big the room and radiator are and the heat loss of that room supplied by the micropore pipework. As long as the flow rate is enough to supply the amount of heat required it's fine. I have a 200 year old house 200 sq metres that works fine with a heat pump. You just have to use it different to an oil or gas boiler.
My home had microbore. They just said we needed a more powerful pump to push the water around more quickly.
Wait for Octopus new heat pump (Cosy 6). Can run at high temps and direct boiler replacement. We should not be using glorified storage heaters like ZEB when we have high temp heatpumps. Even with their lower SCOP of say 2(ish), its better than using 1:1 electric. And then, if you do improved the house (insulation or radiators) the heating curve can be adjusted and you get even more savings as the SCOP increases.
I have been enjoyed, so thank you for delivering.
Thank you, ZEB is the way forward for my house.
Not entirely plug and play for your boiler when it requires a 42A electrical connection - expect to have to get a new power cable through your home to the location of installation.
Our house was built late 80s and ran off a boiler like that with water based central heating. The boiler was much bigger and the house had three phase to cope. It would eventually run out towards the end of the day and cost more than gas so we switched over. The gas boiler is around 20 years old now and will need replacing soon. Unfortunately I got them to remove the boiler cabling when they modernised the consumer unit.
Just out of interest is there an issue with Sunamp? From a fully charged show from a few years back, the sunamp looked like a great storage solution but took up a smaller footprint? Just wondered why they don’t feature much on fully charged anymore? I enquired about installation in NZ but it wasn’t being sold here then. Move to air to air heat pump for home heating and an all in one heat pump hot water cylinder (not as good as I hoped it would be) instead. Energy bills are great and we’ve gotten used to the noise of the cylinder, but still keen on a sunamp or similar hotwater solutions.
I was hoping you would talk more about solutions you haven't covered in previous videos. For example after a little Google i found that a company called Fischer offer an electric combi boiler alternative. I'm also looking for some unbiased reviews of infrared heaters (i suspect they don't work very well).
I've been using them for two winters, since my ancient gas boiler died in December 2021. Far infra red panels work extremely well - so long as you use smart tech to control exactly when, where and how much heat you generate. I use smart sockets, and motion and temperature sensors, etc, controlled by the Smart Life phone app. But of course, with a COP of only 1, they are expensive to run. So I'm adding an A2A mini-split heat pump, with a COP of more than 4.
We ran accumulator electric heaters in our office, and after switching to direct electric heaters we manage to save 1/4 of electricity on heating.
That "Cheap night electricity" only works with fosil fuel power stations. Renewable grid doesn´t have that Unused electricity part, and if it did, it is much more usable to put electricty to a batteries and not waste it on heat.
Here in Czechia it is been 3 years since all electricity suppliers removed difference between night and day tariff. Now there is only 15% difference between two. 5 years ago differnce was 400%. It is not reliable to use accumulator heating anymore, anywhere.
Just use heat accumulators with caution. There were many flats and houses in Czechia using night tariffs electricity for accumulation and suddenly after few years their electricity bills gone 4x. Only way was to replace those accumulators with cheaper alternatives.
Now a heat pump with the heat storage like this Tepeo so that I could run it only at off peak times would be a winner in my eyes. 7.5p intelligent octopus off peak is considerably more than we pay for gas (octopus gas tracker has averaged 4p for the past year) . So our bills would go up a lot with a Tepeo.
Problem is that you need low grade heat storage - which takes substantially more space
I'm about to install a heat pump with an existing 2000 litre hot water storage tank in my garage (I have solar thermal). As soon as my electricity supplier (Good Energy) gets its act together and comes up with a sensible off-peak tariff, I will be able to take advantage of very cheap to run heating.
@@garysmith5025 Thanks for your reply. I will want to heat the top of my 2000 litre (Jaspi) tank to a higher temperature (for DHW) and the rest to a lower level for greater efficiency. This will probably make the controls a bit more difficult. It's all quite complex at present as I have two solar thermal systems (different orientations and so separate pumps) feeding into my tank as well as the existing boiler (will be heat pump).
I recently became aware of this debate and its laughable. i spent most of my life in Tasmania which has a similar climate to the UK. Heatpunps are the standard form of heating in most buildings - apart from some traditionists with actual wood fires. Tasmania is predominantly Hydro powered and now exports energy to mainland Australia. Heatpumps for most people were an upgrade from wood, gas for heating is actually not that common, and more expensive. Heat pumps are fairly cheap to buy, cheaper to run than anything else, instant, clean, safe and they also work on reverse cycle if you want AC. They didn't crash our grid. We've had them for at least 25 years. They are a proven technology! Love the channel!
It's important to remember that this kind of solution does not save electricity. You use the same (or slightly more) electricity than just using resistive electric heating but it means you can pay less for it if on a cheap night-time tariff. It's a time-shifting energy store. It's handy in some circumstances and can save some money but if we all used these systems (as against heat-pump tech) we would have to generate 3 times as much electricity for the country!
Please be transparent on how much the unit and installation cost and time to install and avoid the “15mins connection type comment “ this is not the real world and you are a respected Chanel and I continue to watch with interest.
Let’s not be scared of negativity as we need to accept positives and negatives to get a balanced view .
I contacted Zeb and apparently it wouldn't work in our small 4 bedroom house. This was a real shame as it could have been plumbed in as Robert said also like Robert our house would have needed a lot of plumbing and new rads for a heat pump plus we don't have the space he has. Our massive 30 year old GEC heater worked on the same principle so I didn't understand why it would have been a problem. We have got infrared along with solar and battery instead which works okay along with a log burner.
Have you done the insulation upgrades? Also shop around and don’t be put off. More suppliers coming online all the time. Good luck.
It still just amazes me how behind the UK is on heat pumps. I am 61 years old and a US viewer... and every house I've been in over the last 45 years has had heat pumps.
This has had the knock on effect of our electrical utilities and installations being much more robust.... giving the US a large advantage when changing over to EVs.
Why should we have gone to expensive to buy and install heat pumps, when gas boilers were so cheap to install and run, and still are?
Heat pumps in the UK were used commercially.
We have piped gas and have had for over a hundred years (we had town gas from coal prior to North Sea gas). It's just easy and cheap for us to use gas. Gas is also three times less than electrify per kWh as well.
US has had air conditioning for decades, it's really easy to replace an AC unit for a Heatpump unit. For the UK we often have to install bigger radiators that run at lower temperatures, upgrading a wet/hydronic system takes far more work.
The UKs National Grid has said there is no problem changing to EVs in grid supply.
US grids? Texas grid collapsing! California in permanent brown outs? US has a history of poor electricity distribution. Third Worldish. Then the 1930s electrical system?
Idk where you live in the US, but that's a pretty unique experience. Heat pumps are very rare in the US, and have only in the last 5 years even entered the conversation. Though there are plenty of HVAC contractors that won't even install them.
East asia is decades ahead on that front.
What I don’t like about this, is there no critique at all. They compare to a heat pump but completely fail to explain that a heat pump gives between 3-400% efficiency vs this technology ( thermal heat store) which gives 1:1 i.e. you put a kWh of energy in you get a kWh of energy out! It’s basically a storage heater. By the way there’s nothing wrong with that storage heaters they might have a place in certain circumstances but to ignore the whole point of what makes a heat pump so unique, is IMO frankly unforgivable. They also fail to mention that these heat stores don’t qualify for the government grant of £7,500 so would be quite a bit more expensive to install even if they are “plug and play “.
The video fails to mention that they weigh 375kg. Looking at its plan area a typical domestic floor is design to support a load of 60kg over than plan area. So that 6 time heavy that the floor would be designed for. This is only over a small area so you can offset some of the load with the area around it. But before installing people might want to consider having the strength of their floors checked.
I'd site it outside if I where to get one we've got a gas boiler for heating but I made the system Heat pump ready given I'm also going to add solar it looks a viable option.
The outside doesn't even have to have a permanent structure just a concrete base + a large enough structure for the boiler.
Heat pumps are the only technology that can multiply heat, i was very disappointed when you got a ZEB Robert. I never thought it was the right solution for you. I was happy to install a heat pump for you, labour FREE. I did speak to Dan about yonks ago.
Sorry i can't watch anymore.
The real question you should have asked Robert, is how many kWs of Tepeo does he use to heat his house per day? Does Tepeo store the unused kW or does one have to keep topping it up every day? 40kW at 7p is £3 per day. That is a lot less than I am currently paying per day with my dodgy old gas boiler. Thanks for the video though, as I am looking for alternatives to Heat Pumps, already have a garage full of storage batteries, live off-peak 24/7 and this feels like a natural progression away from a Gas Boiler.
A heat pump is still much more efficient. If you buy a 2 stage high temp HP then you can use existing pipes and radiators.
The Tepeo is very tempting as, like the gentleman in the clip, we are in a 1930's semi, which is somewhat insulated but not perfect by any means. My question is (for someone with a crystal ball) while overnight energy is nice and cheap the Tepeo makes a lot of sense, but what happens if everyone gets EV's and charges overnight. Will the cost of night time electricity shoot up and make the idea of an overnight storage heater redundant?
Yes, it will. Is already the case in Belgium
I don't know what people are talking about saying they have to rebuild their house to use a heatpump? There are air source hydronic heat pumps that can be connected to your existing waterborne heating setup without major modifications to the house unless your current boiler is set up somewhere extremely weird.
One hole drilled to outside and one piece of equipment installed outdoors and another indoors which is then connected via pipes to your heating, what is hard about that? Of course, if you also want to use it to cool your house, you might need to rework some stuff to fit in some hydronic air handlers with associated pipework, but that is a "free" bonus feature so it might be worth it.
What an awesome and elegant solution. I don't think any houses in the USA use water boilers, at least not on the western half of the USA. Most houses have ductwork and used an oil powered furnace with a large oil tank outside, and a fan that would distribute the air through ventilation ducts. Many small houses just started with a wood stove, and no other heat source. One thing that is interesting about heat pump systems is their energy efficiency is actually greater than any other device--the compressed refrigerant actually creates more energy than it consumes in pumping losses. Heat pumps effectively create energy out of nothing, and so are the best possible solution for worldwide energy savings.
Heat pumps don't create energy. They move heat around. They extract low level heat from the surroundings and through compression (pump) change a large quantity of low level heat into a smaller quantity of high level heat that can be used to heat a home.
In the UK we have houses mostly built for "wet" central heating systems, though some people do simply use heat pumps to blow warm air ... these are exactly the same principle as air conditioners in reverse.
Conventional resistive electric heaters are efficient at turning electricity into heat but heat pumps beat them by typically 3 or 4 times in terms of the amount of heat for the amount of electricity consumed. Though it's counter-intuitive that you can beat a conventional heater which is already 99% efficient it has to be remembered that with a heat pump none of the heat that has been created with an electrical element. The electricity is just running the pump ... the heat is coming from the outside air (even freezing cold air has heat that the heat pump can extract).
In terms of strict energy efficiency the system in this video is no more efficient than any old fashioned electric heater! It's benefit is that it can store the heat when electricity is cheap (at night) and release it into the home at any time of day. This makes it cheaper than it otherwise would be but you haven't actually reduced the amount of electricity used. A heat pump on the other hand means that you do actually use less electricity. [So where does that "free" heat come from? It ultimately comes from the sun that warms our atmosphere.]
As always insulation is king. Which is very difficult for those of us living in properties built before wall cavities were a thing. External insulation is an option but is eye-wateringly expensive.
This is also impossible for heritage properties where planning rules forbid almost all alterations.
I live in the U.S. and we have nothing like this at the moment, I was wondering the size of your house. I have a house at about 3500 sqft/325 m² and 4 bathrooms. We have an old hot water boiler that heats the radiators and provides water to the indirect water heater for hot water supply. I'm constantly looking for the next thing since the boiler is over 50 years old and will need to be replaced soon. Any help would be much appreciated.
Thank you.
Sounds like a great idea but in practice it can't just slot in where the gas boiler was because it seems that it weighs hundreds of kg and my boiler is upstairs on a wall.
Awesome car! 👌 love it. A well executed project.
I wish there was a green direct replacement for my one kitchen wall cupboard combi boiler. That's the total space I have available inside my house. My battery and inverter have had to go outside. Every solution seems to want more space for tanks and kit.
Thank you
If only I could get a Zeb installed in the North East of England... Been waiting 2 years for them to get installer up here...
The biggest issue with these storage heaters for me is that they're really heavy and my gas boiler is in the loft. I'd be up for it, if it wasn't for the logistics. Losing a cabinet in the kitchen isn't practical for many people.
I'm half tempted by air-conditioning to avoid gas, but keep my boiler for a portion of my use.
I've still got gas renewed the boiler last year but I did the big insulation push + new modern double glazing. It meant ripping up all the downstairs floors I'm retired so have done a lot of prep work and installed secondary insulation (floorQuilt) ontop of mineral wool.
My energy usage for heating from April to the beginning of this month was zero, its starting to click in on an evening but the main part of the house heats up with the sun in the morning and stays warm loosing a couple of degrees over 6-8 hours
Not sure if the units from this video are the same as the versions from the 70s/80s, but those had removable thermal bricks so you would place the empty unit, then fill it brick by brick.
Been waiting for Robert to tell us how his Tepio ZEB was performing 👍
Need the combi version for house cos no hot water tank.
With new Octopus tariff can fill this up in 8 hours at 7.5p/kwh!
7.5p is more expensive than gas. So that is ashame. Also a yearly service is £149 which is more expensive than a gas service and the cost is £8000 installed which is more expensive than a gas boiler. Love the idea and I like the environment but we pay nearly £2k per year in heating at an average gas price of 4p kw on Octopus tracker. Paying nearly double that price does not seem a good idea. Possibly cost neutral for people who use lpg heating delivered by a truck mind you. But for everyone else the 6.89p price cap is likely cheaper.
@@onlineo2263 How are you finding Octopus Tracker?
Prices could rise sharply again during winter do you think?
It looks like a great alternative but unfortunately they do not have them available in west Wales. Maybe one day.
Octopus have quoted me £800 to install an ASHP in my home including a new tank and related pipe work with the BUS scheme grant of £7500. The Teapo website quotes £6000 plus installation costs, which one do you think I should go for?
Air source heat pumps work if your A+ insulated, I have gas because the work was done last year but to make it air source ready I also converted to underfloor on the ground floor as well as the insulation.
Estimates of energy saving of underfloor + heat pump are somewhere in the 40% mark due to the lower temp in the pipes
I have an A rated 97 EPC with a gas boiler
Basically a storage heater for heating, which makes sense to get the output that’s needed from electricity to heating a large space on off peak electricity .
15 minutes 😂😂😂 .
Not many people have a boiler position that’s bigger than a washing machine however .
Please note: LPG is a lot more expensive compared to the gas network most people are on.
It’s always good to see these different options and alternatives, I’ve yet to see a real breakthrough yet in the industry however .
Would be interesting to know what type of home Robert has, old solid or modern cavity wall, square footage etc
Noticed in the video that his house looks as if its half timber construction.
Have you guys heard anything about a new small UK firm called bolt boiler? They have been all over my feeds lately but I'm not sure whether they are the real deal but if so it would be good to get your views on them.
The Tepeo smart boiler sounds great but would its smart features conflict with the GIV battery smart features......both designed to work on the cheapest tariffs ?
What's the problem? Both can use electricity when it's cheapest?
Can you get the RHI grant (or whatever it’s now called) with one of these?
No it's doesn't qualify for the boiler replacement scheme grant.
Relies on a smart meter as well - I can’t get one as my electrical supplier say I don’t have Wan connectivity! 😢
Just an advert for Tepeo. Obviously part of their sponsorship agreement.
love the ZEB concept but would need the ‘combi’ version as no space for separate water tank…does anyone know if the combi version might have the same physical footprint as their existing product, or likely need to be larger?
Haven't you got a loft? That is where the cold water tank for vented systems used to be.
@@rogerphelps9939I haven’t.
We struggle in my bit of rural Wales. We don't have the infrastructure to support smart meters. Loads of green tech relies on time of use tariffs to make them viable......
Is the 7p/kWh at night including transmission, taxes etc so that it is the actual customer price?
Yes, the doors look a bit thin, looking forward to an episode on good, well insulated doors!
That will be what he actually pays on the particular tariff he is on.
@@MrAdopado I pay market rate for the electricity averaged over a month and that can be 4p/kWh but then there's tax and transmission costs, plus the fixed monthly cost for the connection to the grid... it ads up...
I wouldn't even think about pros and cons of any heating system before doing insulation first. Because once you've insulated your home, your needs not only will be different, BUT FREAKING LOWER.
So it's a centralised COP1 accumulation stove with a heat exchanger and a pump, developed only so existing radiators and pipes could be used, yet at the cost of only being a third as efficient as a low temperature air source heatpump?
I hope this is cheap to buy and the software/electronics part of it lasts a very long time, because it definitely isn't the most economical use of energy, even if it's absolutely 100% verified (not by an installer who just 'knows' you need xx diameter piping, but by a system designer who calculated everything through) a low-temperature setup is out of the question.
I think the better solution is to use a high-temp heatpump. You won't get the 300+% efficiency, but you will still get 200% instead of only 100%.
Another imho better solution is to just get a heatpump anyway, run it as much as possible, and let the existing gas boiler take over when the radiator/piping-setup requires a higher temp to meet the heating demand of the house, and keep investing in upgrading the insulation level of the house and where possible the radiator/piping-setup so you eventually can get rid of the gas boiler entirely without resorting to high-temp low-efficiency non-solutions.
2 heating systems at once?? no thanks
@@JoolsUK You don't understand hybrid heating? I guess this is for you then, don't complain about the running cost.
@@Candisa Replacing a water storage heater with ZEB on economy 7 overnight charging, in a medium house, who has space for 2 boilers
@@JoolsUK Most of a air source heatpump setup sits outside, you're looking for issues that are not there.
I have a hot water battery, which works similar but without the hot water tank
For my new build I'm considering this setup. House has a heating load of about 15KW at highest demand times. (340m2 two story traditional build and up to date insulation).
South facing (single inclined roof) garage 11M x 7M covered with PV’s. 8KW to 10KW air sourced heat pump, heating 2500L heat store to approx. 50 to 55 Deg C during the day. Any excess electricity going to heat hot water cylinders, (for bathing, positioned in house) boost temperature of heat store using electric elements or to charge batteries for lighting and cooking. Any thoughts?
consider a house battery if you have solar, then use split tariff if you have an electric car.
What happened with Sunamp's heat battery?
Problem with the Zeb is it’s only suitable for relatively modest houses. I was really interested but the stored heat isn’t anywhere near enough.
40kwh daily is a lot. My 200sqm house needs that much only when it's -15 outside. A two days in a year event at my location. If you have bigger house then the only solution is ground heat pump.
Not really that much. Assume heating for 20 hours that’s just 2kW of heat loss.
The problem is that you can't get a Tepeo ZEB unless you are in a specifc area of the country. I've tried a few times.
Nobody has ever said what temperature you can expect to achieve with an air source pump or any other alternative heating solution in a standard Victorian 3 bed semi detatched property. I care for my elderly Father and anything below 20/21 degrees simply isn't good enough. I work from home and really feel the cold when I am working at the computer for extended periods too. From what I have seen air source pumps do not heat the radiators to anywhere near what a standard Gas boiler does. I suspect that it would also cost a fortune to redo all the plumbing and have external insulation fitted to he house - money I simply do not have. Also the cost of electricity is way more than the cost of gas so, I am sorry but until a solution can be found for all of these issues, that would not bankrupt me and means that both myself and my father can be comfortable in the house without the ridiculous situation of having to pile on jumpers and artic clothing, I refuse to change.
Update the Glazing and insulate the floors, if your tight on cash pick a room on the morning sunny side and focus on secondary insulation.
A second skin using something like superquilt stops the walls sweating and damp as it removes the thermal bridge.
Insulation is key to any of this stuff working
Great explanation of the use case for a thermal heat store. Thank you Robert & Imogen 👏👏
This isn't a geothermal heat pump...
@@ferguswalker7345 yeah it's neither geothermal nor.a heat pump. It's only a thermal store of heat i.e. a peice of concrete with a heating element.
On the subject of ASHP - why do you have to get all your radiators etc upgraded? Why couldn’t you just get one of these Zeb heaters connected to your central heating and supplement it with an ASHP?
Stacking of cost. Youre paying for 2 heating systems.
Indeed you could use the ASHP during spring and autumn then switch to the heat store if the ASHP can't keep up.
Very interesting, but with a first floor flat, neither heat pumps, nor ZEBs seem to work - need a good solution for flats really
An ashp can be mounted on the wall. 1st floor is perfectly doable. It's tower blocks that are hard.
The idea that you don't need to dedicate some space inside your home to a hot water tank is a luxury that can only be filled with gas. People are just going to have get used to having slightly less space inside their house.
In Australia l don't think we have central heating but there is gas heating heating homes in winter there are several options electric heaters reverse cycle air conditioning wood burning heaters and gas hearters having lived in many houses l have used most of these methods of heating the houses l have lived in
Can the zeb run on solar panels (off grid) or does it need more power. What sort of wattage/voltage
If you want to run completely off grid you'll need a lot of panels. Remember in the winter you'll need a lot more heating and solar output drops to about 1/10 of summer.
@@adrianthoroughgood1191 it's more knowing how much minimum trickle charge is needed because I live in a rural area I could use wind or even water to make up power demands. For example if it needs 12kwh per day that only 500w per hour.
Huraah. If you listen to the TV the ONLY replacement for a gas boiler is an air to water heat pump.
Air to water heat pumps plus:
Air to Air heat pumps - usually much cheaper up front than air to water and usually require less pipework. You can remove radiators/pipes and save space.
Storage heaters - old technology, but new products a lot more controllable and better looking - charge from off peak.
Add a home battery charged using off peak makes any sort of heat pump much cheaper to run.
Add SolarPV as well and you will laugh at energy bills.
High temperature heatpump would also have been a easy solution in his usecase. Not much work needed to install one, and higher efficiency then a thermal boiler.
Anytime I see that everything is in the app, and you have no manual controls... that's nervous making.
Yeah, terrible for long term use. Who knows what that company decides to do with the app in future, or any other company that buys it. Or if it is shut down, fined / sued and goes bankrupt, etc. I'd never buy an appliance like this without any non-app controls for backup.
But my boiler is in a top cupboard. So much for a direct replacement when there's no floor space for one elsewhere. If I could place it in the garage, I would need a plumber for a week!
Storage heaters have been around since the 1970s. This is hardly an innovation..
Though this one is far more sophisticated in its heat release (and more insulated).
Even storage heaters have moved on since the 1970s
Storage heaters didn't charge up to 800C!
BECAUSE the ZEB is a resistive heater (to get to anything like the same temperature as a ZEB a 2-stage heatpump system will be needed - superheated steam as 2nd stage fluid) - it in itself is way less efficient than a heat pump (sort of like a sand battery). As the cost of installation is not "inconsiderate" - the greater COP of a heat pump will probably win in the UK, IF the heatpump is sized appropriately (COP greater than 3.3 helps a lot to win over the price of "capped" Natural Gas)., OR if there is a ground loop in a convenient location for groundsource heat pumping. (Many costs of al these systems are significantly affected and skewed by "Government initiatives." (interference)
We went with Air to Air for the benefit of cooling in summer. Which has been great. Just about to start using it for heating. But as a new build house with a combo boiler… there’s no water tank here. And thus I’ve no idea what is the best hot water solution is that isn’t via our gas boiler. And one that doesn’t require us sacrificing a lot of space somewhere to fit a water tank. As a water tank wouldn’t feel like an “upgrade” at all. If there are solutions for this situation I’d love to see an episode about them
Google sumamp - they do a heat bank like this but is much smaller and better insulated.
If your combi is a fair way from your kitchen sink and handbasin it is very wasteful with water and gas consumption.
Have you considerd an under sink electric storage heater?
They are relatively cheap, fairly compact and easy to install and provide a usable volume of hot water very quickly. They are available in many sizes (water volume wise) and are efficient.
I'm very happy with my 15 litre Triton electric water heater installed very close to my thermostatic shower, and controlled by a smart socket. Half an hour to heat up to 75˚C (1Kwh @ ~30p per Kwh) gives me 30 litres of water at 38˚C, for a 5 minute shower with a low-flow shower head. The same heater under a kitchen sink would also cope well.
TBH I was disappointed you didn't also cover hybrid boilers (combined gas boiler and heat pump).
What about IR Panels + Solar + battery ? We are about to do this and you are welcome to come and look when we are done
I'm only 5mins in and already the FUD of heat pumps can't work with microbore heating is already in the conversation. We have installed many heat pumps with microbore.
Wouldn't go for this or a heat pump. I have air-conditioning, and I personally think it's great. I have really cheap heating in the cold weather and great cooling when it's hot. No radiators are required. It's very quiet and very cheap to run, around 13 to 20 pence per hour for a single unit. Imstill use my gas boiler currently for two hot water taps plus a shower but gas use is minimal.
I think ASHP coupled with 10kwh battery would be far cheaper to run, but huge cost compared to ZEB.
Lifetime cost is far greater for hp+ batteries. Lifespan is around 15 years for hp and 25 for pvs. Efficiency is declining over time. Zed with pv would be cheaper and would live for far longer. There are no moving parts AFAIK.
@@Adrian_kal Problem with Solar in northern Europe is, when we need energy the most for heating during winter, the output is the lowest. In winter the daily average output from Solar would be 3-5Kwh, when we need 30-40 Kwh!
Problem for me, im in a 50s three bed semi and our boiler is up on the first floor. I understand that this product cannot be lifted up stairs
Can thr zeb charge in the day off solar? I read it needs an internet connection, why is this?
Can you do a show about Air to Air Multi Split ( or have you done so ?)
If I’m not mistaken, the UK electrical grid is not yet zero emission, which means neither is an electric boiler with a Coefficient of Performance of 1.0. All electrification is putting the cart before the horse until the electrical supply is zero emission. Until then, any additional electrical load is made up for by fossil fuel fired power plants. Here you have switched a perhaps 80% efficient gas boiler with a fossil fuel fired power plant that will be in the neighborhood of 40% efficient. So your CO2 emissions are approximately doubled. If you had sufficient solar power on site to charge this thermal battery without importing power from the grid, then you’ve made real progress. And that should be the crux of the “green movement”. Increase renewable electrical generation to 100% before spending resources on anything else. Before electrifying anything else. Take the grid OFF fossil fuels FIRST. THEN start electrifying everything else.
Average throughout the year is @ 44% carbon neutral electricity production for UK as a whole.
North Scotland often runs with 100% renewable.
There's a good 'App' available 'National Grid ESO', which gives a good indication in near real time as to electricity production sources and resulting CO2 emissions etc for each area of UK.
There is something called Joule effect...did you know? COP==1. PD.
I think ZEB is taking longer than expected to roll out/develop, I was interested around the time Robert had his fitted. They have my details and said they'd be back in touch, but nothing since then.
If you don't live "down south" then you might still be waiting for years...
Do they do smaller cheaper heat pumps?
You can find through-wall air source heat pumps (cheap as chips and common as muck in Asia) down to around £400 in the UK. I don't like the look of them - they're like a colostomy bag on your house - but they work a treat in the lots of countries they're used in. They have that '3 times efficiency' and power demands of around 1kW (~3kW heating). A competent handyman should be able to fit one, I would guess. We'll probably get at least one eventually. In Asia they fit them one per room, in the room they want to use them in. It's not 'central heating'.
So what's the (S)COP of that boiler? One I guess?
I nearly said yes to a tepeo. We live in a cottage with just electricity. Would have sorted all my needs BUT 6k Plies installation costs would have pushed me to nearly 11k. Just not financially viable and looking through the comments section it seems to be the same story.
Needs the grant ASAP but have a feeling it won't come
If you have no gas what heating are you using now?
It's a nice solution but it remains COP 1, while heat pumps is COP 4 with todays standards. Tepeo is pretty much plug and play but you are better off to use GAS or just regular boilers with thermal panels. Also I'm not fully sure about thermal but I think the hotter you make it, the more power you need; so it might not even be COP 1? might be wrong there,
I got to the part where she said about heating up a concrete block..... so basically a storage heater, which I've lived with for years. Yeah they take advantage of cheap electricity rates AT NIGHT, they are quite warm after several hours of heating the concrete block, but after they stop heating the element the concrete block cools down very quickly during winter meaning you have to rely on alternative sources of heating.... last time I switched a SMALL storage heater on was around 12 years ago and back then with nothing other than the fridge being used, that 1 single SMALL storage heater had used almost £3 in electricity.
Why does it seem like all the latest technology is going backwards these days.... but if they put enough spin on it, the gullible will throw money at it to have it
I don't think you're doing yourselves, the manufacturer or the alternative energy movement any favours by presenting this as a wonder technology and glossing over the way it absolutely relies on cheap off-peak power to match the running cost of the alternatives.
If you're doing paid adverts, please label them as such.
Yeah they should definitely have talked about more product types, and compared them thoroughly, and not just focus on one product from one manufacturer.
The solar PV arrays on roof and in garden will provide a good amount of cheap zero CO2 energy to help offset any demand on grid.
Not a perfect solution, but still far greener than gas as grid transitions to zero fossil generation.